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i think i'm doing ok now tvp (like 50% practicing this build) by developing a hellion opening with igniter into 1 medivac (to drop) with lots of marines to hold my ramp/into expo.
basically the only thing keeping a protoss in his base (for a lot of players) is his lack of multitasking to hold hellion drops or hellion map control if his main force leaves his base.
this delay helps me expand and pump out a shit ton of marines, and 1-2 medivacs to defend against most 3+ immortal pushes with 2-3 bunkers, from there i transition into tanks / marines and turtle hop over to his base.
if he gets templars tanks are pretty good at ff'ing them if you micro accordingly.
if he gets collossus, you just need more bunkers on your timing push over to his base, or you can pump a few vikings from your early starport.
if he drops my tank count during the push it's usually the time i lose.
the dropship play with hellions helps greatly as he is either forced to leave 2-3 stalkers in his base or build cannons.
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On April 12 2010 15:51 PhiliBiRD wrote:
trollfar, u completely defended immortals, but u gave no answer as to how we are to deal with them. sure we can go marines, but if we get stim we wont have medivacs, and probably not sheild. so that turns 45 hp marines into 35. marines are too fragile to take on a toss army directly, we need mrauders to tank. but marauders are TOO fragile vs immortals so we have no unit that can take damage.
thats the issue here.
I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood, but you expect tier 1 units to tank? To me it's clear that the Terrans' advantage over immortal pushes is sheer numbers, but maybe I'm way over the line..
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I think most terrans are so used to strong maradeurs that when they die "oh immortals are to strong!".
Just don't FE. If you are not able to execute morrow's or lucifron's FE builds that means you are not good enough.
I wouldn't say I am good at stacraft but when I play I never try to execute gosu strats and mostly rely on my feelings and antitcipations. I win a lot skilled players who don't fully understand those strats and yet try to execute them. They don't know how to act against some crazy mixes or decisions.
Another problem is multitasking.
You can harass not hurting their eco but to keep busy (fly around with couple of banshee), they will be less focused on army production or expanding. Meanwhile you can build armies and expand. That works great on middle platinum players.
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On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies.
Apparently adapting and changing to reasonable playstyles is not a valid hypothesis these days. Heh.
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On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed.
I disagree.
Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good.
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed.
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
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On April 12 2010 22:26 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Another problem is multitasking.
You can harass not hurting their eco but to keep busy (fly around with couple of banshee), they will be less focused on army production or expanding. Meanwhile you can build armies and expand. That works great on middle platinum players.
The immortal timing push which is being discussed here comes well before banshees.. at least in any respectable quantity. With warpgate a 1-2 banshee harass is mostly ineffective as a toss can produce multiple stalkers in the appropriate location instantly.
I don't wanna call imbalance or anything... to be honest I try so many different strats every game (from 9rax proxy cheese, to FE, to mech, to 3rax ghost play) that I'm having a good time even if I'm losing just because I'm learning. With that said I feel even if I was to really try and win every game (but it's beta ladder so I don't care... and for what it's worth i'm like a rank 3-6 plat player) I would struggle to find a strat which consistently beats the immortal timing push.
For what it's worth I have done reasonably well with 3rax (2 tech lab 1 reactor) marine marauder mass. This didn't used to work at all until I started using 3 ghosts instead of 1. Yeah it's heavy on gas but with reduced EMP range you kind of need it vs. any decent toss whose immortals aren't stacked on each other. The obvious issue with this strat is that 3 ghosts means less gas for tech like stim and concussive shells... I'm thinking that maybe limiting myself to 2 ghosts would leave me with enough resources to at least get stim in a timely fashion.
Another idea I had which would have worked AMAZINGLY well had it not been for my own colossal micro error (rightclick moving my SCVs instead of attack moving them while defending an immortal push) was to hide 3 hellions (yes this requires a different build... like a 1ghost MM fac sort of deal) in a random location and make sure I scouted enough to see the immortal push coming. Once the immortals pass your hellions make a dash for his mineral line and rape his probes. When I did it I had been awake for like 30 hours or something and my multitasking was much worse than normal but regardless I killed all but like 4 probes. If I'd had the normal presence of mind I could have easily fended off the immortal push and left him with basically no economy to speak of.
Anyone else wanna try these ideas out and let me know how it goes?
TLDR: Hide hellions and rush their probes while immortal push comes.. or try a build with more than 1 ghost since EMP radius was nerfed.
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Mech can still be used for support, hellion with igniters are great harassers and zealot/templar killers while actually lasting quite long against toss ranged units. A couple siege tanks is also fine as long as there is enough fodder to keep the immortals from reaching them, with EMP the immortals still get shredded by tanks afterall.
Pure mech play is just impossible in any matchup at the moment, which has more to do with the 3 mech units then just the immortal really.
Immortals are still fine to be honest, they don't beat marauders that hard really as 1 immortal costs the same as 3 marauders. When emp & stim arrive marauders can actually beat immortals,
all that changed was 1 upgrade making marauders not automatically counter zealots at start which in turn made FEing completely safe.
Expoing is harder for terran now but making a OC inside your wall and floating it over when you have marauder and ghost works fine actually. Offcourse you're expo is up later but a wall will still help you defend against zealot + immortal pushes. With regard to pure immortal pushing not much changed, immortals only got a bit better at abusing shield regen as they can more easily run away now.
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On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed.
I heard that, in SC2, instead of producing mass units of one kind you can mix them together. Do you find mixing a few Banshees with a mech army unreasonable, impossible or hard to pull off?
On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
A single unit can not shut down an entire tech tree, since it is easily dispatched with few units of a different tech tree. Do not think anyone is actually trapped in your fallacies.
You could've made the argument the mech tree sucks, which is actually true, and I'd support it. Immortals have nothing to do with it.
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I really don't see why Terran's have problems with Immortals. Personally, I don't use them anymore in TvP, cuz' they get raped sooo hard by Ghosts and because you basically need very fast High-Templars to stand a chance against any Terran-Army with Ghost's in it, especially M&M&M.
Also, Immortals suck against fast-Banshees and various other sorts of cheese like Hellion-Drops.
Besides, going Mech-only is maybe just not the way to go in SC2, but mixing in a few Tanks in TvP is IMHO very good, especially if you wanna play more defensively and secure additional bases by slowly pushing forwards.
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really dont focus on what unit you should NOT go against the opponents unit and get angry and start complain.
Focus on what units and mix that are decent againts it and can counter his units. Thats the way you will win.
If you are just thinking about what units that will loose and get anoyed by that well then you deserve to loose.
And really i think if they would change the build time for Immortals then a really early roach attack could woop the protoss race.
Btw just a fast question, does the stimpack effect stack if used many times after eachother? or does it just get the same effect even if you reduce the HP to 1?
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race...
And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny.
If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs:
1) Let's make hardend shields researchable:
TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush
ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes)
2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit:
Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later.
Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web).
Let the flame about "first post" begin...
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On April 12 2010 23:05 mfukar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army.
The options a Terran right now has are:
a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals.
b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs.
c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. I heard that, in SC2, instead of producing mass units of one kind you can mix them together. Do you find mixing a few Banshees with a mech army unreasonable, impossible or hard to pull off? Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:
The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right?
Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ...
A single unit can not shut down an entire tech tree, since it is easily dispatched with few units of a different tech tree. Do not think anyone is actually trapped in your fallacies. You could've made the argument the mech tree sucks, which is actually true, and I'd support it. Immortals have nothing to do with it.
Thanks for that.
I can't believe how many whiners are here, horrible.
The Immortal push is not imba, not remotely. I see hundreds of players executing one and the same strategy (mass marauder) all day long and once P figures out a way to beat it, its OP. Lord I sure hope Blizzard doesn't listen to this crap. So what's a proper response to the immortal push? A decent counter is marauder and some marines (yes they do terrible terrible damage when a few are mixed inbetween). Once you hold that push, expand get a proper sight of the map and go UP you tech tree (and yes, there is something that is BEYOND marauder) - for instance: cloaked banshee, Thor (yes they get now build a lot faster and are quite strong with a proper meatwall), Vikings (for collossus), ghosts (remember the nuke?, oh emp totally rapes most Protoss units and is YOUR counter to storm and immortal, what has P to counter that huh? nothing than proper positioning) and so on.
Chase of observers using turrets so P cant catch you offguard so easy, no wonder you guys get force fielded so easy once we see EVERYTHING and choose the spot PROTOSS would like to fight.
Use some fokus fire to the Immortals, ones off shield (and it does only counter hard attacks) they die like a zergling.
Terran should finally get used to that there wont be much of tanks in PvT anymore since Marauder replace them. They got their place in TvT and TvZ. Tough Thor and all air units (since Terran now clearly has air dominance) are made to hurt Protoss players, so start learning that playstyle instead off ripping off a unit absolutely necessary for Protoss to beat macromonster Zergs and get PvP and PvZ completely broken again.
EDIT:
@Ghostcom, good first post, pointed that "arguments" often used by that 1 strategy players out quite well
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No, the immortal push isn't unbeatable. However, it always puts terran at a disadvantage, whether by tech, economy, or military. As I said, my strategies actually work fairly well, but no matter what I do I'm at a disadvantage all game. In the last game I played I did make it to midgame, but only because I got a free kill on 2 immortals and a shuttle. I would've lost my expo easily if 2 more immortals were shooting at it as one point it was at like 100 hp.
People seem to think that if you mass marauders that you'll somehow be ok, but zealot/sentry/immortal destroys mass marauder so easily. Protoss also can freely drop harass because you have a whopping 2 marines or something. Oh, and on top of that, colossi also completely demolish bio builds. Now that protoss doesn't have to fear instant death from bio rushes, they can tech safely, make a better army composition, and play for midgame from the start. Terran has to try so hard not to die, and then is left with a garbage midgame army.
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I've never said that nerfing Immortal is the right way to go, did I? I just pointed out that the reason why you can't go mech right now is because of the existence of the immortal. And that the wish of Terran players to go mech is not some preference (like someone mentiod above) but rather more a question of unit diversity in a specific matchup. If you can make mech more accessible without touching the immortal, go on. I'd love to see that.
Still the "game flow" is somewhat broken in TvP right now. While in TvZ there is always a counter to a counter to a counter etc. (Marine -> Zergling / Baneling -> Hellion -> Roach -> Marauder -> Mutalisks or Hydra -> Thor or Tank -> Infestor -> etc.) in TvP you always get countered by a superior force.
If you OPEN UP with Mech than you are hard countered by immortals. That forces you (yes, it does) to start your BO with MMM what than again is hard countered by any mid and late game unit composition that P decides to go (e.g. Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs).
There is no back and forth but rather more a "do what P says and still be at an disadvantage". And THIS is something that I believe is caused by the Immortal and his ability to kill the mech tree (no, this does not mean you need to nerf the immortal if you can find another way).
By the way, I know you can mix in Vikings, Banshees and what not (just for reference: I'm top 8 Platinum right now) but a Toss Ball Unit Mix is always stronger than a Terran Ball that is mostly made of MMM.
But seriously, some of you guys need to calm down...
EDIT:
People seem to think that if you mass marauders that you'll somehow be ok, but zealot/sentry/immortal destroys mass marauder so easily. Protoss also can freely drop harass because you have a whopping 2 marines or something. Oh, and on top of that, colossi also completely demolish bio builds. Now that protoss doesn't have to fear instant death from bio rushes, they can tech safely, make a better army composition, and play for midgame from the start. Terran has to try so hard not to die, and then is left with a garbage midgame army.
THIS! Thanks for backing me up 
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How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers.
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On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers.
How about this, protoss gets a colossus.
Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it?
If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it.
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Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways...
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On April 13 2010 00:41 Ghostcom wrote:
Perhaps it is more of a problem that toss only has one tech tree available to them in PvT than terran not having one available to them in the early game? Idk, that might just be me...
Sure templar tech is "viable" it just isn't as strong as robo early game which is also why mech doesn't work early game, and if your enemy decides to make a push before you get storm and he isn't a retard who mules like a maniac but actually saves up 50 measly energy to scan for DTs, what are you going to do as toss? The forcing of tech goes both ways...
Alright, well assuming that we accept having no mech opening option in TvP, we're still forced to open bio, which means protoss can readily go for colossi and completely wreck us. We're forced into a losing game, which doesn't make sense.
Protoss on the other hand, is forced to go robo. So they go robotics and... win? I don't see how they can complain. It's only forced into robotics because it's a free win vs terran. If robotics wasn't so ludicrously strong, we'd see more twilight or even stargate openings (though tbh stargate sucks).
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I agree... toss is mad tough, especially this patch. I feel sentries might be some of the problem as well, which is why I recently made a post on em. I feel like banshees are the only way to combat a good toss and even that is risky.
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On April 12 2010 23:34 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2010 22:28 Toolshed wrote:On April 12 2010 21:39 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 21:11 ooni wrote:On April 12 2010 20:59 Osmoses wrote:On April 12 2010 18:25 -orb- wrote:
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like EMPing immortals is hard and then when you target fire them they drop like flies. Agreed. My problem with the immortal isn't their shields, its the ridiculous damage they deal to armored units. =__= I have both problem both shields and damage. It stops any mech build from Terran making the game MMM or mass BCs. Yeah because we see a lot of mass BC games ^__^ (sarcasm) But srz TvP is going to be boring forever until Terran can mech properly. Either meta game dramatically evolves and Terran makes a proper mech build against P or Blizzard changes the immortals. I've been doing mass banshee build lately, it worked fine with proper micro I can own bunch of stalkers which are meant to be counters, but this build can be countered so easily with the blink research. Early immortals push well... If I see a cybernatics core going up I get my 2nd ref up and then Ghost Ac up asap. Remember you need 3-4 Ghosts because of the EMP radius but other than that it's not hard to fend off such attack. The problem I have it is nearly impossible to FE against Protoss player doing a immortal push. However, if you think about it, it's same vice versa. When I see a protoss player FE I see free win with 3-4 Rax MM or quick banshees $_$ There is no inherent Terran 'need' to mech, and it's ridiculous that people say the matchup will only be fun if mech is viable. There's absolutely no argument here other than preference. And to take that one step further, if you're building tanks in TvP you probably deserve to lose. It's not just Immortals, either. You're gimping yourself from the start by choosing units that are less effective overall against the protoss army, and more resource heavy to boot. Hint: The only significant change to Marauders was the idea in many Terran players' heads that they got nerfed. I disagree. Basicly your advice is to not go mech at all? Your suggestion is to build Rax T1-T1,5 Units all game long? Sounds good. Immortals force T to use low tier units (Marines and Marauders) which than get absolutly demolished by any mid-late game Protoss army. The options a Terran right now has are: a) Go Mech and get killed early by Immortals. b) go MMM and get killed mid game by Sentries, Stalker, Speedlots and Colossus/HTs. c) go Air until Stalker Blink and get killed. The argument why Mech should be a valid option is that it absolutly makes no sense that a single unit (Immortal) can lock down a whole tech tree and forces a race to stay on their T1-T1,5 units (which are countered easily) from early to late game, right? Just imagine for a secound that a single T unit would deny Ps Robotic Units (Colussus, Warp Prism and Immortals). Sounds fun, eh? Though you still would have strong Gateway Units and some good Tech Options (Speedlots, Storm, Blink etc.). A Terran on the other hand has just stimmed low tier Units and ghosts. Yay ... You mean like the Thor denies mutas, how the effing marine denies P air up until the equivalent of BCs? Yeah, good thing the immortal is the only unit in game that makes an entire tech tree unfeaseable against a certain race... And those t1-T1,5 units are the only thing you use right? Because medivacs, ghosts (with an EMP that totally rapes immortals and is very good against all Ps units), vikings and banshees aren't used in PvT at all... So many terrans are neglecting the ghosts undogdeable EMP when they are talking about immortals that it isn't even funny. If you want to "balance" a game, at least have a little bit of perspective and see what the suggested nerfs to the immortal would do to the 2 relevant MUs: 1) Let's make hardend shields researchable: TvP: Sup marauder all-in rush ZvP: sup mass roaches are back in the game (yeah you try holding off all-in roaches with any combination of zeal/sentry/stalker and tell me how that goes) 2) Let's make the immortal into a purely tanking unit: Both MUs: the retards might go "lol hey I'll go shoot on this unit specifically designed to tank which deals 0 damage while his zeals/sentry/stalkers rapes me", but let's face it - most people are in fact in equipped with something called a brain and would target fire the low hp but high dps units first and then proceed to kill the immortals later. Please note that this isn't because I'm against a mech buff, I just don't think that the immortal warrants a nerf only because terrans wants to go mech. If you want to make mech more viable, buff mech. In fact, I'm very much for more tech options, just like I would like to see some air options for toss which doesn't involve heavy cheese and is countered by 200/400 minerals worth of tier 1 units (god I miss D-web). Let the flame about "first post" begin...
Ah, just wanted to add that it is true that Thors counter Mutas. One unit counters another unit, no problem. I'd be a problem if the Thor would be able to kill every flying unit a Z has (including broodlords) because thats what the immortal does to Terrans. Killing Mech. Also think about how long it takes to get a Thor and an Immortal. With CB you can have immortals like INSTANT!
Not gonna talk about P air coz everyone knows that it sucks  although I disagree that a marine counters every Stargate Unit. But it'd be a little bit too much if P would have ground AND air dominance, wouldn't it?
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