EPT[H] TvP - The Immortal Problem. - Page 2
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Replay here | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 12 2010 13:47 PhiliBiRD wrote: aside from the stalkers with blink which is pretty rare. the main problem for us terrans (at least for me) is surviving the first committed push the toss makes. usually to survive it i have to bring in SCV's. by the time they push me i have at least 1 ghost, mostly marauder heavy army and stim. and starting to produce marines from 3rd rax. most of the time toss just A+moves me and wins. If he a-moves into your base then you should have no problem. If that was just an exaggeration, link me a replay and i'll try to help ya out. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On April 12 2010 13:56 imBLIND wrote: I tried thors today and it turned out better than i expected. The 250mm cannon thing 1hit KOs immortals for 100 energy. Imo, i think it's worth it to kill 1 immortal rather than getting emp and having it live for another day. Replay here I can't watch the replay atm, but that doesn't seem viable to me although it's an interesting idea. Thors take awhile to build, require an armory which takes forever to build, and take awhile to get 100 energy after they've been produced... and killing 1 immortal with 250mm cannon isn't going to win the game, since they can easily have 4 or more on the field. What was your unit mix? Maruader/thor I'm guessing? I can't see the thor being a better choice than ghosts (600mins/400 gas for fact+armory+thor, which could be used for ghost academy + 2 ghosts instead). Also, what was your plan after getting a thor out? Continue doing thor/maruader? I have a feeling that storm/immortal/stalker/zealot would eat that combo alive. | ||
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Khadgars
United States38 Posts
That and lower their damage (25+10) | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On April 12 2010 14:36 Khadgars wrote: I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion. That and lower their damage (25+10) oo thts a pretty neat idea... It would really help for terran and zerg when they have to deal with a fast robo immortal rush... | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9105 Posts
On April 12 2010 14:42 jamvng wrote: oo thts a pretty neat idea... It would really help for terran and zerg when they have to deal with a fast robo immortal rush... It would only make sense if it was upgraded at the robotics facility. I guess it's because I've been going mainly bio in TvP but for me colossi are the problem, not immortals. I guess immortals are the counter to mech though, while colossi counter bio pretty well. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
The thing is named the "IMMORTAL" for a reason, I don't want it to be just a big stalker. But with reduced damage it would still be a strong unit capable of taking loads of punishment, just not dealing back endless swarms in kind. | ||
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Harpwn
Australia253 Posts
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Trollfar
Sweden22 Posts
-Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)? 1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know) 2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think. but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo. , but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess. For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit. But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units. But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf. | ||
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
On April 12 2010 14:36 Khadgars wrote: I think what would help is too make the Immortal shields have to be researched at the Templar archives or another building. Delay the massive benefits this unit has in the same way maurdors are required to research concussion. That and lower their damage (25+10) I actually made a post about this earlier, but I guess I didn't reason myself well enough and the thread got closed... I honestly believe either the build time of Immortals should be longer, and/or their damage vs. armored units has to be an upgrade, perhaps from the robo bay. Any of these would greatly increase Terran's early survivability... Against Protoss recently I've been experimenting with this build with moderate success: 1rax+tech at normal timing, reaper. Try to harass with the first reaper while making a bunker with an scv at the Protoss nat. The key is to keep that reaper alive, and put it inside that bunker after it's done the job. After 1~2 reapers I would make a marauder and put it in that bunker, scv staying there to repair the bunker of course to delay the protoss. Meanwhile at home I expo, then add barracks or factories. Then to fend off the inevitable Immortal attack, I use 2~3 bunkers at my nat. with 2~3 REAPERS (I think this is key as their attack power is pretty respectable), marauders and marines inside, with perhaps a tank in the back. I play at the middle Plat. level. I actually was able to survive more than 50% of the time, but I'm not sure if it's just the Protoss reacting badly to this play style. | ||
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
On April 12 2010 15:30 Trollfar wrote: -Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push? -Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)? 1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know) 2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think. but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo. , but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess. For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit. But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units. But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf. 1, 2 - If you're talking about Marines strictly against Immortals, sure. But marine tech is not sustainable. Protoss Colossus (even just 1) mixed with Immortals, storm, own marines en masse. It's not pretty. Perhaps marines can serve as a buffer between the Protoss army and siege tanks, so the immortals' shield get taken down if they try to reach the tank... but I don't know if anyone's been able to pull this off yet. You cannot compare Banshee tech to Immortal tech this way. Protoss has many uses of the Robotics Facility other than the Immortal - Observers, Colossus, are both very much needed units for Protoss. The Banshee tech tree will only get you Ravens, and they generally come out much later because of the high gas cost. For early to mid game, Robo facility is a MUST for protoss, while a starport with tech addon doesn't quite fit into the picture the same way. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
thats the issue here. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On April 12 2010 14:24 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I can't watch the replay atm, but that doesn't seem viable to me although it's an interesting idea. Thors take awhile to build, require an armory which takes forever to build, and take awhile to get 100 energy after they've been produced... and killing 1 immortal with 250mm cannon isn't going to win the game, since they can easily have 4 or more on the field. What was your unit mix? Maruader/thor I'm guessing? I can't see the thor being a better choice than ghosts (600mins/400 gas for fact+armory+thor, which could be used for ghost academy + 2 ghosts instead). Also, what was your plan after getting a thor out? Continue doing thor/maruader? I have a feeling that storm/immortal/stalker/zealot would eat that combo alive. Oddly enough, it's viable enough with the thor being able to be built in the same time as a single banshee. Although it is more expensive, having 2 thors allow you to snipe stalkers easily and you can snipe immortals with 250mm. I use marine/thor at first because i need the dps of the marine to go with the thor. I might change my mind later if i find thor/marauder to be better, but marines complement the thor just fine. By the time I'm able to get 2 thors, the other guy has 3 immortals and some other stuff en route. The traveling distance also helps a lot with getting 2 thors out in time before his mini push arrives. I can't say this is better than 2rax marauder FE, but it does seem to work to some extent. What I like about going thors is that i can get siege tanks as well, which owns every toss unit except for the immortal. W/ the 250mm and sieged tanks, i feel like it deflects an immortal push better than marauders. This would fare pretty badly vs fast stalker or zealot aggression, but a bunker easily solves those problems. An interesting thing I discovered is that the immobilizing effect makes them unable to attack as well, which is nice considering immortals 2-3 hit KOs any terran ground unit except for the thor. Now only if this ability had a longer range... Here's another replay Replay Screwed up in the beginning so i only have 1 thor... | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
Anyways, they really do die fast to EMP+ marauder, and theoretically at least they'd die fast to any sort of marine army, but I can't think of any build that'd get a ton of marines fast. If I had to guess I'd say you either expand too fast or you don't bother using stimpack^^;. Or you try to use stimpack and then EMP, which almost always used to give me forcefields in the face and ghost snipes. Terrans roll over me just fine as toss after patch 8, even when I go immortal. I'm only rank 1 in gold but that should still translate to somewhere around the 30 plat from the games against plats that I do play | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 12 2010 12:22 Ftrunkz wrote: Hilariously, tanks do more dmg/second against armoured units in tank mode rather than siege mode. Isnt the important part the HUGE range in siege mode? Siege attack also deal splash and tank mode non-splash damage, right? So the "true purpose" of sieged tanks should be to get rid of the Sentries which scew up your masses of Marines and then have the Marines finish the Immortal while the tank is out of range. If you are defending Marine + Tank against Protoss you have LOTS of Marines and Sentries screws that up a lot with the Forcefield by pushing them apart, isolating half of your troops out of range or blocking reinforcements from the ramp. So IMO the real issue isnt the Immortal, but rather the Forcefield. Bunkers to neutralize the Forcefield are a possibility, but a really early push might catch you before they are completed in a sufficient number. Early on the bunkers arent "free" as many people always say. | ||
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madjerry
China60 Posts
my problem with the early ghost strat is the zealot. when mixed with right amount of zealots, the initial push with immortals will inflict huge damage to terrans who goes fast ghost, since terran simply doesn't have enough resource to go for 3 rax while getting concussive shells, stim and ghost ready in time, not to mention a decent amount of hellions and medivacs. so what would you expect to counter zealots with guardian shields? at that stage, marauder kiting won't do as they will slowly be consumed by stalkers and immortals while hit&running zealots. if you choose to take out the immortal with the help of emp first, great, you find your self in the middle of a good pack of zealots. i'm not saying its a direct GG. but it's hard for terran for it lost early map control due to marauder nerf, which leads to zero pressure on the toss while teching up. TvP mechanism has totally changed. anyone? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 12 2010 15:30 Trollfar wrote: -Does anyone have a viable safe build that works against protoss immortal push? -Do immortals need to either be moved up the tech tree or take longer to make (some sort of delay to keep them from being massed so early)? 1. If they go immortal you go Marines. they are good counter for immortal because there shields are just good agains damage over 10 if i remember right. so steamed marines will own them. (maybe they´ve changed this shield in a patch i dont know) 2. Immortals is good as they are, they need to be able to get fast enough to counter an early roach or marauder attack. other wise protoss would stand that much of a chance in that kind of attack. And if Immortals are mass produced a mass group of marines will own that i think. but this just if you see to what unit counter what unit. another thing is that Immortal just attack ground units. so Banshee is ofc a good choice againts protoss overall imo. , but they is higher up in the tech tree i guess. For Banshee you need: rax-facility-starport-techlab on starport For Immortal you need: Gateway-Cybernetics Core-Robotic Facility And neither of them can attack air, so in that fight the banshee wins because they are an air unit. But the whole point in SC and SC2 is to go the right unit aginst other units. But if Immortals could get counter by every unit they would be useless and that would be a crap unit. So IMHO i dont think they need a change at all in the tech tree. And they dont need a nerf. I do go marines. Guardian shield and gateway units tear through them so fast though. Marines are a fantastic buffer, but they take so long to build up and die so fast. Once that buffer is gone you're screwed. Immortals are not required anymore to keep protoss alive. Stalkers do fine in killing off early terran pressure of any kind, and roaches too. Force field is still as good as ever allowing protoss to block their ramp if needed. I never seem to see a game where protoss has to rush immortals to stay alive, so if you can point me to some by all means do it. Banshees are not an option, you die before you get them, and if you do manage to get them you have to use them to defend the attack on your base. Then you're left with a scouted banshee tech vs a protoss who is now going mass stalker/observer, and you still lose horribly. The point in sc2 is NOT to go the right unit vs other units, or I hope that's not what the designers are intending. It should be more about going a strong mixed composition which relies on micro to fight varying forces. You can vary your force composition somewhat, but it's the same core unit combo with various supporting units. I believe that protoss pretty much is already finished with regard to this. Protoss has so many options and viable compositions. Terran is getting better, but we're reaching a point where we realize they're in trouble without marauder spam. Zerg is still awful with regard to unit composition. =============On another note============= I did play another couple games (again vs mesmerize), and I had some reasonable success by going 1 rax 1 fact opening, with a fast tank and marines. I then got a ghost academy and an engineering bay after my factory got up, and a tech lab for ghosts on my rax as my academy finished. I was able to stay alive with marines/tanks (1 bunker). I got a nice turret ring up and actually managed to kill a prism with 2 immortals by trapping it in my base with turrets which was a huge boon. However, I STILL had a ridiculously hard time pushing out to take my expansion, and after struggling forever to get it up I managed to secure my 2nd base! However, mesmerize also expanded (across the map in a main to block with pylons/forge to prevent hellions from getting in). He then proceeded to completely demolish my push, partially due to mismicro and partially because he just had so much stuff. If he hadn't lost his prism carelessly I would've easily lost the game I feel. I barely survived with a PF tanks AND EMP. I also think an even better protoss player (I'm looking at you Huk =D) would simply demolish that opening. I just don't see how terran can win TvP anymore. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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