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On April 13 2010 05:28 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:26 L wrote:so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Uh. Do you have any reps showing this? I'd love to see how a one base timing push which is repelled outmacros a defensive expansion. the only way for terr to expo is defensively. a one base timing push can easily transition into out expanding a turtle terran. we've already agreed that fast expanding isnt really an option anymore. i just want to see some tourny games from luci/demuslim fighting off an immortal push.
demuslim vs whitera - this evenings tournament final
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On April 13 2010 03:53 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Wow.. almost literally nothing changes from the last patch when TvP mean watching Rockit Black Guys roll over protoss in droves, and now the Terran are ready to burst into tears over immortals?
Seriously guys, if the immortal wasn't as power as it is right now, we'd loose to marauder cheese every single game without question. Immos are the only answer we have to marauders at the early-mid game, and as we should be well-aware by now: MARAUDERS ARE STILL MORE EFFICIENT AND WILL STRAIT UP KILL THEM COST FOR COST AFTER STIM.
Soo, you have one tech tree that's "shut down," by immos. Thor might lack mobility, but it out-ranges the immo by 2 with the 250mm, so you cannot say that it's impossible to get off from behind a wall of RBGs. Factory being a stupid idea vs. immo spam is fine. Do you think we get to build any starport units after terrans produce a few vikings? Hell no we don't. We get absolutely creamed by vikings in anything from a phoenix to a mothership.
So, let's not forget in all this QQ, that we're playing essentially the same PvT as last patch, without the cheese marauder open. It wasn't impossible for T then, and it certainly isn't impossible now. If i'm not mistaken QXC defeated a few notable protoss in the same tourney that Huk cleaned his clock.
Uh, this makes no sense whatsoever. First you say that you absolutly need immortals to fend of marauder cheese. This means that immortals are good vs marauder, right? But than you admit, that immortals also shut down mech tree. So lets think about it some more:
Immortals kill
*Marauder
*Hellions
*Tanks
*Thor
Is it me or is there not much left (besides air) that is not covered by the immortal? And everything that is left (Marines, Ghosts [and Banshees, lol]) is heavily counterd by Sentrys, Stalker, Zealots, HTs and Colossi). And you even point out that Marauders kill Immortals cost for cost, hum ... please imagine now for a second that Immortals would demolish Marauders even more than right now. What the hell is T supposed to build than? BCs?
Please dont even try to compare Thor and Immortal since Thor loses in every single category but GtA. By the time a Terran has 2 Thors P is at 4 Immortals. And by the time you actually arrive at P's Base he has about 5 Immortals. And even than you most likely are going to bite the dust.
The main problem with immortals is that they have no drawback even when counterd WHILE being usful against 2/3 of the possible T army compositions.
Storm shines against Bio but is "useless" if EMPed or sniped by hellions or used against mech and it obviously is hard to get.
Colossi are good against Bio but is "useless" against Mech and is easily counterd by vikings and also requires some tech.
Immortals on the other hand are good against Tanks, Thors, Hellions, Marauder and to some extent even Marines (dealing 20 damage is not bad at any means), which is pretty much everything a terran has in his arsenal. They also require low tech and have only one hard counter (ghost) which is than easily countered by everything else protoss has.
The question that still remains is what exact role the immortal has in a PvT. If the immortal is there to shut down heavy mech, than it should require much more tech and it should be very easy countered by anything that is not mech.
There is no need for an immortal in it's current state as an allround unit with little to no drawbacks. Or if there is a need than something else needs to be done to reduce the advantage that the immortal provides in this matchup.
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Thors DO come with the ability, it's just a matter of energy. You have to try the build out instead of theorycrafting man. The point is NOT to push out with the Thors, but to use them to defend your expansion. Your expansion will be up faster than the Protoss's and then you proceed to get Marines + Marauders + Medivacs + Ghosts. I come out with 3 Thors by the time they push out with 2-3 Immortals, Zealots + Sentries. Granted, you scout to see whether they go for the Warp Prism or Immortals to support their push.
Edit: Btw, if the Protoss takes 2 more expansions than the Terran, I'll just push out when I have EMP + Medivacs + Marines + Marauders and crush his army. It's not as if you keep building Thors to be part of your army composition.
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I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
Of course ghosts gets countered by Collosus, zeals etc pp. In that stage of the game it's a LOT about scouting, positioning and micro.
If you catch the P off guard you can EMP his key units and he will just die or has to retreat for at least one minute.
On the other hand if T is catched off guard, P can FF well and might Feedback the ghost or place some nice storms.
Conclusion: this has nothing to do with balance issue.
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One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
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On April 13 2010 05:43 GoDannY wrote:
I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
Of course ghosts gets countered by Collosus, zeals etc pp. In that stage of the game it's a LOT about scouting, positioning and micro.
If you catch the P off guard you can EMP his key units and he will just die or has to retreat for at least one minute.
On the other hand if T is catched off guard, P can FF well and might Feedback the ghost or place some nice storms.
Conclusion: this has nothing to do with balance issue.
Two words: Guardian Shield.
Even if you EMP the Immortals and target them with your Marauders/Marines, Guardian Shield still makes it hard to kill the Immortals quickly enough so you can deal with the Zealots/Stalkers. Meanwhile, the Zealots/Stalkers are still attacking your Marines/Marauders while you're busy trying to take the Immortals out.
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On April 13 2010 05:43 GoDannY wrote:
I cant believe how many Terrans completely ignore the strength of EMP and how Immortals get completely crushed when the shields are just gone. Even the Theorycrafters should see that, ones the shield is gone, Immortals have not much HP to offer O_o-
i cant believe how you ignored most of the posts in this thread. we are FAR from ignoring the strength of EMP. i use ghosts every TvP because without them i feel ridiculously gimpep. we ARE using EMP in our builds, if you arent your not playing TvP properly. your being really ignorant in your post.
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just theorycrafting (unless a protoss player would like to test with me) but if going very early eng +1 infantry weap + early stim instead of ghosts helps at all with anything...
i'm SeaL.arfarf on sc2 beta
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On April 13 2010 05:28 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:19 Feefee wrote:On April 13 2010 00:39 Floophead_III wrote:On April 13 2010 00:36 sysrpl wrote:
How about this, get marines, medivacs and helions. The helions (with the pre-igniter upgrade) should melt the zealots. The marines will obliterate the immortals and you can then mop up the stalkers. How about this, protoss gets a colossus. Seriously, do you even think through what you post before you post it? If anyone has a standard, noncheese opening which puts you in an even or better position midgame, please let me hear it. I think this post highlights the exact problem in this thread^^;. I don't think anyone's arguing that an immortal push is unstoppable by the terran. Or at least I hope nobody is, because it's seriously not that hard to stop. But when I hear stuff like "I can't go marines because toss will get colossus!" or "a zealot/sentry/immortal midgame ball will kill marauders"! all I can say is "right...and?". If the protoss tech switches on you or starts to mix up units to specifically counter what the terran has, then why on earth SHOULDN'T that be effective? This stuff is working as intended! If he techs to colossus you can tech to viking. or heck you can actually try siege tanks now since you have a sizeable marine army in that above scenario. Or you can switch to heavy marauder/ghost since he stopped immortal production. And marauder/ghost/medivac also completely rolls over a zealot/sentry/immortal ball unless you can't figure out how to EMP sentries and immortals. and EMP'ed sentry is an expensive paperweight against mgm. Seriously^^; First it's "we can't fight off immortaaals", then people tell you to try unit comps and you come back with "but if he builds something else, our army can't fight thaaaat". It's a strategy game... start using strategy. I hear scouting helps with decision making Because, Feefee, tech switches are not cheap for terran. If we go marauder ghost to counter an early immortal push, we are committed to marauder ghost for a while because it's gas heavy. We can't easily switch to vikings. We have to build a factory and a starport. Now if we go marines early we can get to vikings by the time you have colossi, but then we die to an early immortal push. Our buildings also require addons. I can't just switch midgame from marauders // ghosts to marines because I'll need reactors to produce a sizeable amount of marines.
Oh don't give me that =P. You're perfectly right on all those points but "we need extra buildings/addons to tech switch" is... obvious? Toss needs extra tech too to switch to colossus, and they're only good with the lance upgrade which takes foreeever to get. Assuming you engaged the terran army at all before your "tech switch" to starport it's hardly an investment. One medivac will heal your previously stimmed, now in yellow health army back to full. I mean, I started playing terran, switched to random, and then to protoss, I understand the terran tech tree. But I also understand the protoss tech tree which I think some people here don't.
How is going 2 rax + ghost acadamy a build that "puts you behind" like so many people keep saying? And yes, that does stop an immortal push.
I just want this thread to devolve out of the generic "SEE THOSE REPLAYS!? IRREFUTABLE PROOF! NERF IMMORTAL!" and back into a discussion, where smart people actually try out some of the things suggested. People see a header like "Immortal's OP" and the entiiiire thread just becomes "OMG YES! WE ALL AGREE!". Those replays show a siege tank fast expand build against immortals.. BIG SURPRISE that didn't work well. Just play the game.. play it against an opponent that's at your skill level (cause quite frankly in those replays the toss was a better player than the terran by looking at the micro of each), and if you seriously can't beat an immortal push or its followup after trying all the different things suggested, then fine, I'll let people make a "immortals seem unbeatable" thread.
As it stands right now every time someone points out that your strategies are just horrible, or suggests something for you to try/follow it up with, this thread replies with "You're stupid. Can't be done. It'll set us behind. He'll kill me with unit b."
Post a few replays (again against an opponent of equal skill) demonstrating how, after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
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On April 13 2010 05:49 Feefee wrote:
after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
I just explained why 2-3 rax ghost puts you at a big disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing terran can do to stop the Toss from getting an earlier expansion than the Terran. It takes a very long time to get all the key upgrades and ghosts to even think of a push. And you will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers.
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not sure what but something must be changed
bio isnt a viable option late game vs toss and mech was never good because immortal counters it too hard
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Look, one stalker doesnt "counter" early reapers. It makes harass more difficult but its far from countering. if you stopped making reapers because theres a stalker. I dont know what to tell you except look at the big picture. He cant get out of his base because of reapers. Whenever you get nitro boost, you can outmaneuver stalkers easily and if he decide to split, well 6 reapers kills a stalker in 3-4 volley. Most importantly, you're NEVER in the dark. You have all the information you need to counter his army. When to push and what not.
Also do not block your choke with buildings, its a death trap. You're begging to lose games due to force fields. If you have a decent reaper opening you have nothing to worry about early game coming from the protoss.
Whenever he pushes out, invite him to your comfy command center. Your scv's and decent base layout will give them a warm welcome.
You have reapers, which is one of the best unit in the game(efficiency/cost), use them for fucks sake.
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On April 13 2010 05:45 link0 wrote:
One of the BIGGEST problems is that the Terran has no cheap way to scout what the toss is doing. I have to prepare for every possible interation.
The toss gets observers with NO SIDEWAYS tech. It's so bloody unfair. He knows exactly what I am doing. If I fast expand, he will 4 gate+robo my ass. If I slow expand, he will expand while I am waiting for all my key upgrades (ghosts, stim, etc). If I go bio+mech he'll just go immortals. If I go all bio, colosus. The game is in the Toss player's control because of OBSERVERS.
1. The toss might go for stalker then fast expand. I have no way checking for expansions except by suiciding a reaper, a floating rax, or waste a scan. The toss then might just expand right after the reaper, rax, scan is gone. During this whole time, the Terran is prepping to defend against a typical immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry push. GG, out macroed.
2. The toss goes for colossus while I am prepping for immortals. GG, I lose. Again because I have no idea what he is doing.
3. The toss goes for the standard 3 gate + robo build. I build bunkers and turtle up in one base. He doesn't attack me and instead expands and techs. GG, I lose.
4. The toss goes for DTs built on some remote corner of the map. I'll never know it's coming. I have to turtle up in my base and crawl out with turrets until I have a raven. Mean while he expands 2x. During this whole time, I was prepping for a immortal bust. GG, I lose.
NERF OBSERVERS. I don't care about the immortal.
I have no way of beating Toss players of the same skill range (top 5 plats) at all right now.
1. They already nerfed observers. They cost 50/100. All you have to do to stop them is to build 100 min turrets. Ezpz. Dont' just place turrets on the outside of your base. A few at your min line or maybe choke will almost always catch the obs.
2. You have scan. The best form of scouting in the game. Yes, it cost you 250+ minerals. But information > 250 minerals almost always. If you really don't want to waste a scan or MULE energy, scout with an SCV or reaper. Theyr'e cheap and you can just make them hang around the Toss's natural so you have a better idea of when they're expanding.
3. Don't complain about proxy tech. Terran can proxy tech pretty damn well themselves. Proxy starport cloaked banshees. During this whole time, I was prepping for MMM push. GG, I lose.
Immortals+Sentries FF is toss's only answer to biomech. Nerf one of them and toss will just absolutely die to MMM or biomech.
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Reapers are completely freaking worthless and anyone who is relying on them is relying on their opponent to be bad. I can't say it enough.
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On April 13 2010 05:19 Floophead_III wrote:
Thors don't spawn with the ability and that thor is not going to be out in time for that push i don't think. I will try it later though and if it's successful I'll post replays. Another big issue with the thor is mobility. Defending drops with that thing is a nightmare, so you'd really have to play amazing vs drops.
Getting 1 thor, if not 2, is very feasible before the toss comes knocking on your door. It takes 120 seconds for 2 thors to be built disregarding the fac/armory build times, and it takes an equal amount of time for toss to get 3 immortals. Even with chrono, he can't get a 4th immortal in before you get a 3rd thor b/c of the travel distances.
As previously mentioned, thors come with the ability it just takes 100 energy for it to be used.
I agree drops are quite painful, but i sacrifice money for a sentry tower and place a thor in between my natural and my main. Still refining this build at the moment.
Also, if he masses anything else besides immortals, you switch to tanks and focus fire on everything that isnt an immortal. I find that having 2factories and anticipating/scouting the switch helps a lot. If you use 250mm on an immortal, it prevents it from retreating and attacking, which i find pretty nifty cause most tosses just retreat and keep pressuring once their shields go back up.
On April 13 2010 05:22 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:15 Prozen wrote:
People, try the Thor build. I barely managed to live against a 1 base Immo push with it but I still survived and managed to get my expansion up. You have to make sure you use the Thor's ability against the Immos. Then after you survive, mass up, and push out with EMP. A smart toss wouldn't push out versus a quick thor... and you can't push out with 2-3 thors though, you will need much more as toss will be getting sentry/zeal/stalker/immortals en masse, and you'll be sacrificing map control as you have no mobility. so by the time you have 5,6 or more thors and you have EMP, I'll be at 200/200 supply. Grats, you still lose. Granted, only Gretorp has gone thor against me and done decently, but the answer can't be to just blindly rush thor every game.
Its not thor pushing, it's using the thor to defend. If you thor push, the toss can probably build 2 immortals in the time it takes to get the thor to the toss. Obvious fail there.
I do agree the map control thing is an issue, but that has always been an issue for terran in the past. I've been experimenting with various methods to try and prevent the toss from retaining total map control, and the easiest one is to get a medivac and to thor harass. It's not exactly ideal for harassing, but it's better than nothing.
If he does overexpand, you can grab 3 thors (use medivacs) and use the 250mm to snipe the mexus. 1 more shot after 3 250mms will kill the nex.
Another method that is quite efficient is 10 hellion harass. It's really really good vs tosses that like to mass sentry/zeal, but not so hot vs stalker/immortals. A huge con of this build is that it takes a while to set up, but having 2 reactors prebuilt for factories helps.
A couple other methods that come to mind are reaper harass and banshee harass, but i don't think either of them will be very effective.
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On April 13 2010 06:17 Floophead_III wrote:
Reapers are completely freaking worthless and anyone who is relying on them is relying on their opponent to be bad. I can't say it enough.
How about I play your protoss and prove you wrong?
well except proving that you're horrible. I just want to put you into a game setting where reapers own your face. Then we'll talk about how bad they are( and how bad you are from your analogy)
Fallenfrog.spl
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On April 13 2010 05:58 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 05:49 Feefee wrote:
after going 2 rax ghost, or even 3 rax ghost against immortals makes it impossible to win the game afterwards and I'll concede that at least that strategy isn't viable. Right now this thread is just a bunch of terrans agreeing with each other that they hate the immortal. I can make a thread where all the protoss agree with each other that the marauder is OP, I guarantee you it'll be just as insightful as this one.
I just explained why 2-3 rax ghost puts you at a big disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing terran can do to stop the Toss from getting an earlier expansion than the Terran. It takes a very long time to get all the key upgrades and ghosts to even think of a push. And you will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers.
And I just explained how that's completely irrelevant.. I can't get a faster expansion that zerg either. I don't have MULE's either, so my 2 bases will be saturated while you can MULE it up. Getting an expansion slightly later than a terran doesn't equal "I'm so behind I'm gonna lose the game". Show me a replay of you being unable to follow up a 2 rax ghost build... I have never lost to a protoss going immortals with 2 rax ghost (including an expansion). If he dares to expand off of immortals while you're 2-3 rax ghost then just kill his expo and expand after that. You seriously have SO many options.
I really feel like you're just refusing to try. It doesn't take a "very long time" to get stimpack, and you don't need concussion grenades that early. But more importantly "You will be pushing completely blind since Terran doesn't have observers"? Send a freaking SCV over to scout^^; Learn protoss timings. If they have even a single immortal you can rule out void rays and colossus. In fact, you can rule out colossus entirely. Do you never scan a tosss's base?
Terran may be many things, but blind they are absolutely not.. And don't start on the "if I scan I'll be so far behind cause I didn't mule", that's bull
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On April 13 2010 06:09 Fallen wrote:
You have reapers, which is one of the best unit in the game(efficiency/cost), use them for fucks sake.
Toss just need to guard the mineral lines with 1 or 2 stalkers and push with immortals. 6 reapers will own a stalker you say? Sure, but by the time reapers kill 1 stalker he will have 2 more ready from warpgates. You see the problem here right?
IMO the problem with immortals are not because of their hardened shield but with their ridiculous damage of 50 to armored units. This leaves absolutely no room for Terran to micro his tanks because they get killed with only 3 shots. Once toss gets 3 immortals 1 tank gets wiped out every second it's not even funny. I think their damage should be 20 fixed, and maybe allow +30 armored bonus damage as an upgrade from Robotics Bay. The upgrade should be costly and long enough so toss has a choice of going for Colossus range upgrade first or Immortal's damage upgrade first.
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Immortals 4 shot tanks due to armor. +1 weapons makes them kill a tank in 3 hits no matter what. Regardless, it's ridiculous.
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On April 13 2010 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. They already nerfed observers. They cost 50/100. All you have to do to stop them is to build 100 min turrets. Ezpz. Dont' just place turrets on the outside of your base. A few at your min line or maybe choke will almost always catch the obs.
2. You have scan. The best form of scouting in the game. Yes, it cost you 250+ minerals. But information > 250 minerals almost always. If you really don't want to waste a scan or MULE energy, scout with an SCV or reaper. Theyr'e cheap and you can just make them hang around the Toss's natural so you have a better idea of when they're expanding.
3. Don't complain about proxy tech. Terran can proxy tech pretty damn well themselves. Proxy starport cloaked banshees. During this whole time, I was prepping for MMM push. GG, I lose.
Immortals+Sentries FF is toss's only answer to biomech. Nerf one of them and toss will just absolutely die to MMM or biomech.
1. Turrets? Are you serious? I am going to put 3-4 turrets (because that's how many it'd take to remotely cover a normal base just to prevent 1 observer from seeing my tech? Even with turrets, it does not prevent observers from scouting my army composition or whether I am expanding. Turrets don't cover much area.
2. Yes, I have scan. 270 minerals for 3 seconds of scouting. That's 2.5 marines away from the cost of a new command center. You have observers for 50/100 for infinite scouting and detection as well.
You say I should use scan, and every other Toss player is telling me that MULES offset the probe to scv number advantage and earlier expansion advantage. You see the problem here? I can't do both.
Nerf OBSERVERS or as an alternative, make scans cost 25 energy. I can probably deal with sentries and immortals if I actually knew what the F the Toss is doing.
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EPT
