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On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#1) forcefield abuse. - containment/control of fights, making fighting in non open areas suicidal.
Abuse? Isn't every thing you listed kinda the point of the spell? Is there some other function of forcefield that you think it was intended for, and that containment and positioning control is just some weird fluke? What is your point? Remove forcefield?
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#2)warp prism immortal drops - containment these guys RIP apart suppy depots like no other. you CANNOT leave your base until you have some kind of defense, none of which are affordable on 1 base.
Not affordable? Marines? They do very well against Immortals. Takes 3 Immortal shots to kill a marine, and cost wise marines are a good idea vs Immortal harass. You can economically defend Immortal drops with well micro'ed marines. Keep in mind that you aren't as weak at your natural as you'd think, because those 2 Immortals in the warp prism are not going to be knocking on your door. You can have all your marauders and whatnot up front while a group of marines chases around the warp prism. Not to mention that you have the possibility of killing the warp prism with the marines as opposed to Marauders.
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#3)warp gates - once you have been contained, its like they have 4 gateways sitting outside @ your nat or just outside your nat. making their push the strongest in the game. also they can just instantly warp in more sentries you keep FF @ ur ramp containing you. or waiting for you to come down and split your army in half.
If they are keeping their entire in front of your base, they probably don't have much at their main. You can do some dropping of your own. Even the threat of drops will force the Protoss to have some sort of units away from your base or else lose a bunch of probes. Any time that he is pushing your base, you have a much easier time using EMP. Any time a Protoss is pushing you, you have great opportunities for nice clumped Protoss armies for optimal EMP. Immortals are plain and simply not a problem with EMP. If you aren't using EMP, you're not properly countering his army, and you deserve to lose. Its like not making Marauders against roaches.
On April 14 2010 04:32 PhiliBiRD wrote:
#4)being forced to spend a great deal into upgrades while protoss spends only 50/50 on warp gate research. this drastically reduces terrans unit count, sure EMP is great, so is stim, but when u have 5 less marauders + change it can work against you. 1 emp vs a good toss player wont hit much.
You aren't thinking of this properly. Are you talking about just marine and marauder against zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal? If so, getting a core and getting tech labs are fairly equivalent. Then in order to even get an Immortal, you need the Robotics Bay, which is 200/100. Sure you spend more on upgrades, but the Protoss has an extra building to make. And the differences there are small enough to not really matter. The difference is that EMP is a direct counter to Immortals, just as HT are commonly used to counter the Ghosts. At the point of the game that you have EMP but the Protoss does not have Feedback, you have spent more money, but you have a more well rounded army. Especially with your main argument being the idea of Protoss containing you, where if a Protoss is to attack, they'll be extra weak to EMP, it doesn't really make sense. Pushing just about any natural expo will require some level of clumping of units by the aggressor. Use that to your advantage with EMP. It may be their attempt to push that loses them the game because of EMP.
What it sounds like to me, is that you are perhaps not using EMP well enough and not using marines well enough. I think that a combination of both of those things will help your game a lot. Hope this helps, Best of luck! 
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(edit to add credibility before the terran fools like the one below me complains about "whipping out his 1400 platinum dick" *rofl*, im 1450+ platinum, not great but enough to comment.)
I watched the replays finally.. and WOW.. Do you honestly believe that strat you did all 3 games SHOULD work vs Immortal push? Immortals were made.. TO COUNTER TANKS!. I just dont understand how you are asking for help here, when you did the same shitty strat that the toss's strat directly counters everygame.
I wish every Terran I played in platinum did marine/tank like you! I'd be like 50-0 vs Terran, as opposed to like 2-50.
Quick tip. Get marauders first, and do a counter push.. Three marauders can take out any stalker/immortals the toss will have in the first 5 mins, and if you just keep pushing him back and lowering his numbers, eventually your marauder/ghost/medivac will own everything he has until zeal speed.. Even if he has 10 immortals, marauders and ghosts make short work of it. Im finding every game I have vs a good terran, I need to rush to zeal speed ASAP or I get run over by pure marauder, ESP if I do the prism drop harassing, because that leaves me with little units to defend his counter push, which vs marauders you need every single unit to be able to hold it off.
The slow from marauders was the least of its issues imo from last patch. They need a major stat nerf, either price go up or damage/HP go down, they still take out every ground unit in the game.. I just lost a game where I was way ahead in economy, had 4 collosus and mass immortal/stalker and he had pure marauder/ghost and he raped me easy. It didnt make sense, collosus just got total owned by marauders, like every other ground unit.
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On April 14 2010 05:02 PhiliBiRD wrote:
to threehundred...
so your saying we should go upgraded helions and banshees...?
get out of this thread please. you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. go back to your copper games. theres no where in your build to upgrade stim/conc and/or get ghost. without those you wont stand a chance. hellions require luck or certain maps such as kulas/blistering (think backdoors) which are hard to break open without being scouted. any other map toss will just FF ramp and your entire strat has been nullified. not to mention toss can just warp in stalkers @ home
lolz. so what are you talking about? i've been demolished by 3-4 immortal pushes all day long and i'm trying out new builds that either delay it or block it completely.
do i need to whip out my platinum 1400 rank 10~ dick or something? the goal is to 1) banshee's come before immortals 2) marauders kill stalkers when he's ready to a-move into your base, marines kill immortals (in bunkers in a defensive position if he attacks at the time of your push) and 3) hellions toast zealot/sentry heavy openings if he's expecting to go for forcefield abuse play.
do you want me to post a concise build order for when to get concussive grenade/stim/upgrades when i was only rough posting what i do to break a standard immortal push play.
the fact that he HAS to warp stalkers is a good thing as it makes your unit counter building even easier instead of him getting 5 immortals he'll probably have 3, and he still can't leave his ramp unguarded if you have a lone hellion or 2 running around.
the goal again is to deter his aggression with 'guerrilla tactics'.
i've played pre-reactor nerfed/pre concussive shot nerfed 2rax/3rax marauder timing pushes since the start of the patch and it was hella boring winning because i simply had to dance back and forth when i had my first 2-3 marauders out with some marines/scvs to take out his units and rally my own to his base.
i've also tried going for siege first which is garbage for sure vs blink play and simple immortal macro.
so this is the the next best thing for me that i feel works.
what should we all do? 2rax ghost? 3 rax marauder aggression? calm the fuck down.
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lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
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it's sad then that posting privileges are given to people like me QQ
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On April 14 2010 06:03 PhiliBiRD wrote:
lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
hey stop being a jerk. threehundred is making quality posts and you're doing nothing but bashing him.
its beta. noone knows the difference between trying something and whats practical.
1400 is a perfectly respectable rating. you are not king of the world, stop acting like it.
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On April 14 2010 05:43 Skyze wrote:
(edit to add credibility before the terran fools like the one below me complains about "whipping out his 1400 platinum dick" *rofl*, im 1450+ platinum, not great but enough to comment.)
I watched the replays finally.. and WOW.. Do you honestly believe that strat you did all 3 games SHOULD work vs Immortal push? Immortals were made.. TO COUNTER TANKS!. I just dont understand how you are asking for help here, when you did the same shitty strat that the toss's strat directly counters everygame.
I wish every Terran I played in platinum did marine/tank like you! I'd be like 50-0 vs Terran, as opposed to like 2-50.
Quick tip. Get marauders first, and do a counter push.. Three marauders can take out any stalker/immortals the toss will have in the first 5 mins, and if you just keep pushing him back and lowering his numbers, eventually your marauder/ghost/medivac will own everything he has until zeal speed.. Even if he has 10 immortals, marauders and ghosts make short work of it. Im finding every game I have vs a good terran, I need to rush to zeal speed ASAP or I get run over by pure marauder, ESP if I do the prism drop harassing, because that leaves me with little units to defend his counter push, which vs marauders you need every single unit to be able to hold it off.
The slow from marauders was the least of its issues imo from last patch. They need a major stat nerf, either price go up or damage/HP go down, they still take out every ground unit in the game.. I just lost a game where I was way ahead in economy, had 4 collosus and mass immortal/stalker and he had pure marauder/ghost and he raped me easy. It didnt make sense, collosus just got total owned by marauders, like every other ground unit.
Even 3 rax marauder can only break even with correctly played immortal pushes. Add in a prism for drops and you will get dominated if you try to leave your base. Counter attack and FF will block you until his army can beat yours or his prism comes back. Not to mention he could kill your base and just pull probes to help stop your push since probes actually screw over marauders so badly it's hilarious.
I've played through a lot of variations, the reason I posted these replays is because this opening was the only way I could see to be safe vs all protoss builds and still be able to expand. Even with scans I'm still flying pretty blind vs earlygame protoss since you really need that first mule and really the second too otherwise your build will be massively delayed. A good protoss will beat a player going mass marauder in patch 8. No longer do they have to play defense the entire first 10 minutes. It's just a losing game for terran. Fast drops with bunkers MIGHT be able to win a game for you but it's still a big gamble. It's how I've won a lot of TvPs but on maps like DO or scrap protoss should always observer first just because of the long rush distance and he'll know what's up and be able to stop you. Other maps the attack comes before you have the defense and usually doing the drop results in you dying. It just isn't safe play.
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On April 14 2010 06:03 PhiliBiRD wrote:
lol @ 1400 rating, like that makes u good right? haha.
and @ mohdo, your counter arguments are all too "you can try this". against what is truly practical. except for marines vs the drops but how many marines are you going to leave in your base? you need at least 6-8 to fend off an immortal push. and if u attack toss can just fly them right back on over to his base to defend. where as ur marines are stuck @ home. what it takes for terran to do drops is alot more of an investment than protoss, which only invests 200 minerals vs 400 min/300 gas. granted our transpo heals.
continuing to argue about this is getting no where so im done with posting here, unless someone comes up with a good post/idea for Terr. everything that has been suggested is a given and answers/fixes nothing.
I only recommended you try these things because they are things which have been effective against me when I play against Terran.
Immortals each cost 250/100, so using 8 marines to fend off 2 immortals is still economical. Especially considering the Warp Prism is also a part of the drop. You should be trying to have about 4-5 marines per Immortal anyway if you don't have EMP. If he is dropping with 2 Immortals, you should have at least 8 marines already. Any additional Marines at your natural should be there anyway. Your goal is to scale your marines to the Immortals until you have EMP. And who ever said you have to attack during the period of this Immortal drop? You could always expand once you have EMP. It doesn't have to be a matter of either you push him or he pushes you. If you feel like a certain time of your TVP is rough, try to structure the game to go to other times. Having 8 marines running around your base against the Immortal drop does not put you behind. It is an economical counter. And once the drop is ineffective, you can all the while expand. Any other aspect of the push, you should be level. He's got 2 Immortals flying around, you have 8 Marines running around. Neither comes out ahead really. If anything, the Terran comes out ahead because the Marines were needed anyway for the Immortals. It is the Warp Prism that ends up being a waste of money if the harassment isn't successful, as it shouldn't be with proper marine defense. The Marines are needed anyway for the Immortals, it is simply a matter of where you put em. I'd imagine the issue is that you simply don't make the Marines I am describing, which is definitely a big mistake. I'm not trying to argue the balance or lack thereof, because it is very clear from my own as well as tournament replays that the match up is fine. I am simply trying to help you better deal with the Immortals.
To sum up:
1. Make marines and scale marine production with the Protoss Immortal production.
2. Keep a sharp eye on the drop and keep a group of 8 marines to deal with it.
3. Don't be stuck in a 1base mindset. If you can hold your ground, expand. If you feel like 1 base vs 1 base is tough, make it 2v2, its a totally different game at that point.
Cheers
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I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back...
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like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
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On April 14 2010 06:22 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
I especially liked the game where you forcefielded his ramp on steppes for about 5 minutes while getting ranged colossi and expanding. He didn't even have a factory started it was so hilarious and broken. I don't think I've ever laughed that hard at a game of SC2.
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On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back...
this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow.
scans would make this pretty expensive over time though right? but I guess it doesnt matter cuz you'll be doing so much damage. its almost a guaranteed nexus snipe o.o
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On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow.
Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game.
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On April 14 2010 06:30 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow. Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game.
Ok discussing the same topic in 2 threads now but oh well we're starcraft players and have multitasking :D
I disagree with mass stalker +obs because the terran will just snipe your obs over and over again and if he's not a total noob he'll do it with minimal to no losses. Cannons i agree with and getting some void rays also, but you need good scouting and a stargate before the robotics, cause you can't build a forge, a robotics and stargates and not be overrun 20 seconds later. I'll have to try it vs high level toss if i get matched vs one but in that case i fear i'll be just outmicroed, so you need a better terran to verify.
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On April 14 2010 06:40 Ganondorf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 06:30 Floophead_III wrote:On April 14 2010 06:27 mOnion wrote:On April 14 2010 06:22 Ganondorf wrote:
I've yet to find a Protoss countering a banshee opening followed by vikings for some obs sniping once i have cloak researched. The immo push will knock at your door just when you have the first 2 banshees out so it's not a problem to deal with if the choses to attack. On the contrary, you can then kill all his forces with your banshees + marines and proceed to attack. Before a bug reset my stats i was gold and trying to work my way up in plat. This worked vs gold/low plat toss, always. Banshees + 3-4 vikings for obs snipe, very hard to counter. Lost only one game because i messed up the build order and the toss had void rays coming from 2 stargates which i also missed scouting. Also as a sidenote, marauders do not counter immortals, you need marines to get rid of the shields. Or banshees of course, they do almost full damage on shields and can't be shot back... this sounds scary as shit. viking range makes this even easier. wow. Mass stalker + obs with blink should completely annihilate that strat. Add a few cannons in your minlines and you should be safe. You can't make that many banshees/vikings off 1 base. I don't think it'd work at all vs high level toss, which is where this problem we're seeing exists anyways. I still win tons of TvP because I'm underranked by a lot, but if I were top 5 plat I'd be losing every game. Ok discussing the same topic in 2 threads now but oh well we're starcraft players and have multitasking :D I disagree with mass stalker +obs because the terran will just snipe your obs over and over again and if he's not a total noob he'll do it with minimal to no losses. Cannons i agree with and getting some void rays also, but you need good scouting and a stargate before the robotics, cause you can't build a forge, a robotics and stargates and not be overrun 20 seconds later. I'll have to try it vs high level toss if i get matched vs one but in that case i fear i'll be just outmicroed, so you need a better terran to verify.
I'll try it in some games later and if it's successful I'll post replays. If it's not I'll probably get an even better terran to try it because the mechanical skill needed to pull off a build like that is probably quite high.
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Yeah, I played a game against a quick Cloaked Banshee + Viking techer. Lost horribly when he COMSAT the area when my Stalkers/Sentries started firing, and instagibbed my Observer. Couldn't even come up with a better way to counter that, than keeping a bunch of backup Observers on standby and getting something else to deal with the Banshees (Phoenixes/HTs). By the time you get the 2nd, or 3rd Observer into the fight, your entire ground army is going to be a massive crater in the ground. Feedback is quick and decisive and you can obliterate a bunch of them with just a second of detection, while Phoenixes, Stalkers or Sentries require a much longer time investment to bring them down, leaving your Observer incredibly vulnerable.
A Raven isn't a bad idea, either. Forces the Protoss to have to pick apart the Terran's army piece by piece, rather than stand and fight.
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On April 14 2010 06:22 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
like i said before any good plat terrans that wanna try out their tvp vs me just msg me on bnet mezmerize.plz - me and PhiliBiRD played some nice games yesterday
What's your ID? Or just message me. Mente.flouse
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well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
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On April 14 2010 07:05 Skyze wrote:
well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
some terrans try different things, i know its hard to believe that someone actually want to try other units then the marauder, but its true.
This is a beta, and a good answer is not "make more marauders" because if that is the only thing you can do, there is clearly a issue with the game
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On April 14 2010 08:01 evotech wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 07:05 Skyze wrote:
well I must be playing at different hours than you guys then, since everygame above 1400 platinum on US server I play, every terran goes pure marauder or banshee rush, and it always dominates toss hard. I've actually yet to see any terran open with that Marine/tank opening that was platinum, and if they did it was a breeze walking over them.
I dont think immortals/anything toss does needs a nerf, if anything needs a nerf its marauders. I think terrans just need to realize that marauders > immortals, but immortals > tanks (as its intended to be.) so uh, I dunno what to tel you. Get marauders. thats it. They are the best unit in the game by far, and every good terran ive faced above 1500 platinum on US server have always been doing some kinda 3/4 rax marauder push once first 2 ghosts are out.
some terrans try different things, i know its hard to believe that someone actually want to try other units then the marauder, but its true. This is a beta, and a good answer is not "make more marauders" because if that is the only thing you can do, there is clearly a issue with the game
Is it okay that "Make Immortals, QUICK!" is the only good option when a Zerg does a Roach rush? Is it okay that "get some godamn AA!" when you see a Terran teching to Banshees is the only good option? You're spouting nonsense. Its not a matter of make more Marauders, its a matter of make SOME Marauders. You can't just build whatever the hell you want and expect to hold back everything through sheer force of awesome.
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EPT
