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On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you?
Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else.
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On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Haha, I vetoed Taldarim ever since I switched from random and Daybreak is the shittiest map in the pool for TvT and TvZ until / unless you get 4 bases.
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
ZvZ is the worst matchup to watch and play, that is the only reason I don't play Zerg. Your theory on map design where Terran is forced to make 90% marines is basically the same thing. Whoever loses a clump first loses.
Maps that box you into 1 composition are bad. That is why TvP is a bad matchup. Terran, for all intents and purposes, is forced to play essentially 1 build with 1 army composition that only varies slightly. It is bad game design. Tvp is my best matchup, I am not whining about balance, only the poor design that you play the matchup robotically.
Thirds that make you autolose if you make tanks are the same damn thing. You have defenders DISadvantage.
Vs Zerg there are many compositions used. Right off the bat there is straight bio, mech, and the most popular fusion between the two. The reason you cannot turtle with siege tanks on one 3 base is to aid zerg in trading effectively vs Terran. Mech is very powerful in it's own right, and the early/mid game is a zerg's real chance at beating it. All maps should not follow one formula. Bio for terran is very different you must have many accessible bases to continue to expand, and trade with a zerg. Attacking into one angle defended by siege tanks usually makes for boring games. As this is a spectator sport maps need to discourage straight turtle plays, and encourage aggression before late-game.
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On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else.
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone.
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On August 07 2012 04:28 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the third on this map is fine, not any harder than Korhal Compound or Daybreak. This map is very beautiful also. That is why Korhal is not in the pool anymore. Daybreak's redeeming featrue is that the speed of Zerg units can be dealt with if you can ever take a 4th. Both are terrible
Have you played on this map? The third is really easy to hold because of the controllable choke point (as terran). I played a bunch of games on this map because I really really like it. Played at least one of every MU (I'm masters with all races).
What I found is that the "natural fourth" has some problems with space redundancy- not that it's too far away, but I just am not quite sold by the design of that area in general. It's a minor gripe to be sure, and overall this is probably my favourite non-crux map in a very long time.
ONE HUGE ISSUE HOWEVER: In most of my games I was getting MASSIVE FPS drops and lag (on low settings). I have an absolute behemoth of a computer, but I'm not sure if this is patch 1.5 issue or map issue.
If Seemo wants I might load up some aesthetics on "ultra" :D
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On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else. Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song: One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong... Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone.
This map wouldn't get veto'd by terrans because of the way that taking the central base as a PF fourth balances out any imaginary issues you have. It's actually a very well constructed map. Plays out fairly standard-ish, but with some spice and elements thrown in.
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On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else. Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song: One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong... Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone.
Ok now you are confusing me on what map feature you are upset about. Korhal Compound was removed from the map pool for many reasons. Earlier you said that because you cannot defend your 3rd holding 2 positions. You just said that Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom are good maps. They both require your siege tanks to be in 2 different locations. The only possible difference that I can think of is that they are on high ground. Firstly this is not a major issue on this map because the angle at which an opponent will be attacking is at the same level giving both an equal sight range. Just like cloud kingdom. The distances are also very close. So the ramp leading down is the issue? This is small and trivial, and give a defensive bonus to the defender. You are not pointing out specifics of maps this makes making sense of what you are saying difficult. Also the reason the 3rd on Korhal was difficult to defend was because the 3rd could be attacked from a high ground staging point.
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On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone.
Daybreak and Tal'Darim are also still in the map pool. Korhal was taken out because Siege Tanks can hit the 3rd from a safe spot, not because the 3rd is unholdable in 1 position. Try harder, or you won't keep my attention.
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On August 07 2012 05:43 Veloh15 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else. Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song: One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong... Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Ok now you are confusing me on what map feature you are upset about. Korhal Compound was removed from the map pool for many reasons. Earlier you said that because you cannot defend your 3rd holding 2 positions. You just said that Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom are good maps. They both require your siege tanks to be in 2 different locations. The only possible difference that I can think of is that they are on high ground. Firstly this is not a major issue on this map because the angle at which an opponent will be attacking is at the same level giving both an equal sight range. Just like cloud kingdom. The distances are also very close. So the ramp leading down is the issue? This is small and trivial, and give a defensive bonus to the defender. You are not pointing out specifics of maps this makes making sense of what you are saying difficult. Also the reason the 3rd on Korhal was difficult to defend was because the 3rd could be attacked from a high ground staging point.
The backdoor of the third is so far out of the way and on low ground. If you attack where 5 tanks arent, you have a huge army value advantage with no ramp as an equalizer. Protoss and Zerg don't have immobile units at the core of their armies prior to 17 minutes. This is the problem.
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On August 07 2012 06:17 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 05:43 Veloh15 wrote:On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else. Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song: One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong... Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Ok now you are confusing me on what map feature you are upset about. Korhal Compound was removed from the map pool for many reasons. Earlier you said that because you cannot defend your 3rd holding 2 positions. You just said that Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom are good maps. They both require your siege tanks to be in 2 different locations. The only possible difference that I can think of is that they are on high ground. Firstly this is not a major issue on this map because the angle at which an opponent will be attacking is at the same level giving both an equal sight range. Just like cloud kingdom. The distances are also very close. So the ramp leading down is the issue? This is small and trivial, and give a defensive bonus to the defender. You are not pointing out specifics of maps this makes making sense of what you are saying difficult. Also the reason the 3rd on Korhal was difficult to defend was because the 3rd could be attacked from a high ground staging point. The backdoor of the third is so far out of the way and on low ground. If you attack where 5 tanks arent, you have a huge army value advantage with no ramp as an equalizer. Protoss and Zerg don't have immobile units at the core of their armies prior to 17 minutes. This is the problem.
Please refer to my points before making false claims about the third on this map.
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On August 07 2012 05:55 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Daybreak and Tal'Darim are also still in the map pool. Korhal was taken out because Siege Tanks can hit the 3rd from a safe spot, not because the 3rd is unholdable in 1 position. Try harder, or you won't keep my attention.
Because rocks at the third allow Terran to deny Z a third for longer on TDA and Daybreak splits the map at one choke once you take a 4th which allows meching players some catchup time before Broods or BCs even tbough the third is really difficult. If Antiga didnt have the rocks and high ground, it would not be in the map pool, I guarantee it.
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On August 07 2012 06:18 DYEAlabaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:17 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 05:43 Veloh15 wrote:On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 04:39 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 03:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Why does the entire TL mapping community think the game is balanced around tanks and sentries not existing?
You don't follow the mapping community much, do you? Force Fields and Siege Tanks are 2 of THE biggest things we have to keep in our minds when designing maps. Siege tanks are why we have to be careful with the shape and facing of ledges and mineral lines, force fields and warp gate, together, are why almost every main base has a minimum width ramp, as opposed to a flat choke or a larger ramp, and why we have to be cautious when trying to make an extremely narrow passageway. Oh, and Siege Tanks are supposed to be immobile, because you're supposed to make a strategic decision as to where you put them. There's no strategy whatever involved in parking them on top of one small choke. Sorry if you don't feel like playing like everyone else. Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song: One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong... Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Ok now you are confusing me on what map feature you are upset about. Korhal Compound was removed from the map pool for many reasons. Earlier you said that because you cannot defend your 3rd holding 2 positions. You just said that Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom are good maps. They both require your siege tanks to be in 2 different locations. The only possible difference that I can think of is that they are on high ground. Firstly this is not a major issue on this map because the angle at which an opponent will be attacking is at the same level giving both an equal sight range. Just like cloud kingdom. The distances are also very close. So the ramp leading down is the issue? This is small and trivial, and give a defensive bonus to the defender. You are not pointing out specifics of maps this makes making sense of what you are saying difficult. Also the reason the 3rd on Korhal was difficult to defend was because the 3rd could be attacked from a high ground staging point. The backdoor of the third is so far out of the way and on low ground. If you attack where 5 tanks arent, you have a huge army value advantage with no ramp as an equalizer. Protoss and Zerg don't have immobile units at the core of their armies prior to 17 minutes. This is the problem. Please refer to my points before making false claims about the third on this map.
My apologies. You can funnel tanks and thors down the ramp and to the other side of your third in a timely manner while having time to return to your natural and seige up if the opponent changes directions with their stimmed marauders or speed roaches or cracklings. Also, the sky isn't blue and we never landed on the moon. I am sorry for spewing lies
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Looks awesome. Seems like the third would be really tough to secure in PvZ.
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On August 07 2012 06:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 05:55 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Daybreak and Tal'Darim are also still in the map pool. Korhal was taken out because Siege Tanks can hit the 3rd from a safe spot, not because the 3rd is unholdable in 1 position. Try harder, or you won't keep my attention. Because rocks at the third allow Terran to deny Z a third for longer on TDA and Daybreak splits the map at one choke once you take a 4th which allows meching players some catchup time before Broods or BCs even tbough the third is really difficult. If Antiga didnt have the rocks and high ground, it would not be in the map pool, I guarantee it.
So if the maps we've all come to know didn't have the features they have, and were a lot worse, then they'd be bad maps. Right. Got it.
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On August 07 2012 06:54 xPabt wrote:
Looks awesome. Seems like the third would be really tough to secure in PvZ.
It's really not actually 
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On August 07 2012 07:07 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 05:55 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Daybreak and Tal'Darim are also still in the map pool. Korhal was taken out because Siege Tanks can hit the 3rd from a safe spot, not because the 3rd is unholdable in 1 position. Try harder, or you won't keep my attention. Because rocks at the third allow Terran to deny Z a third for longer on TDA and Daybreak splits the map at one choke once you take a 4th which allows meching players some catchup time before Broods or BCs even tbough the third is really difficult. If Antiga didnt have the rocks and high ground, it would not be in the map pool, I guarantee it. So if the maps we've all come to know didn't have the features they have, and were a lot worse, then they'd be bad maps. Right. Got it. Yes. If this map had some of the same features that those other maps have to balance them out, then it would be less bad.
If those maps lacked those additional features, they would also be bad like this one.
By Jove, if not for the sarcastic tone, I would suspect that you had solved the riddle that is the English language.
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On August 07 2012 10:16 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 07:07 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 06:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:On August 07 2012 05:55 NewSunshine wrote:On August 07 2012 04:54 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Korhal is out of the map pool. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana are still in. Like the Sesame Street song:
One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong...
Define "everyone else." This would get vetoed hard by most Terrans and be out of the ladder in 1 season, Just like Korhal, just like condemned ridge will be. Ugly maps with other design flaws like Entombed stay in for this reason alone. Daybreak and Tal'Darim are also still in the map pool. Korhal was taken out because Siege Tanks can hit the 3rd from a safe spot, not because the 3rd is unholdable in 1 position. Try harder, or you won't keep my attention. Because rocks at the third allow Terran to deny Z a third for longer on TDA and Daybreak splits the map at one choke once you take a 4th which allows meching players some catchup time before Broods or BCs even tbough the third is really difficult. If Antiga didnt have the rocks and high ground, it would not be in the map pool, I guarantee it. So if the maps we've all come to know didn't have the features they have, and were a lot worse, then they'd be bad maps. Right. Got it. Yes. If this map had some of the same features that those other maps have to balance them out, then it would be less bad. If those maps lacked those additional features, they would also be bad like this one. By Jove, if not for the sarcastic tone, I would suspect that you had solved the riddle that is the English language.
You still really haven't said anything about the map at hand, but, I for one, am done with this it seems pretty clear to me that your mind is made up, and this argument should best be placed somewhere more viable for the situation. The point of these threads is to give constructive feedback to the mappers.
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As someone who was skeptical of the original design, I like its current form a LOT more. The layout has a much better flow to it, and the aesthetic, while not perfect, is a cool step in an awesome direction. I would maybe extend the left and right bounds of the map a bit, and rotate the 3rd's mineral line just slightly clockwise, so you don't have to defend attacks on the 3rd from an awkward angle so much. It's not that bad, just a small refinement I'd make.
Overall, I like it. You're improving quite a bit. Keep it up d00d
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O_o jesus. how bloated this thread has become.
I really don't understand why people became so used to easy thirds - So that we can see 3 base turtle all day everyday?
If you have easy thirds, such as entombed, where you have no chance to attack, we're going to have stagnated games. Whether you like if or not, UGLY, I don't want a free third. I like watching back and forth games!
Also here's what I think:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lDFrk.jpg)
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Make your map how you want. Open ended third bases strongly favor Zerg though so if you want a chance of people playing your map competitively, you need to think about that. Based on your diagram, you have never tried mech Terran and don't care for the style as a spectator. That is also fine.
But you can play heavy bio style on any map. You can't play mech on this map. If you think that eliminating 2/3 of Terran compositions is wise and will make people want to play your map or that it is somehow "good map design," fair enough.
Watch Stephano vs Hero on Shakuras Plateau from NASL and tell me that dynamic is something everyone will enjoy watching. It was absolutely painful for me as a non Protoss to see Hero have to cancel his third a dozen tines while Stephano took five bases. It seems like that is what you are hoping for, And that is fine if you think it serves your interests.
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This is a masterpiece, hands down.
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EPT
