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[A] Starbow - Page 235
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402847 | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
 . I tried working on the map pool myself, but I had absolutely zero help. Best I could do was modify existing ones and created Neo Ground Zero port. Not ideal at all. So who won your bo7  | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The result from Xiphias Vs Azelja BO7 (do not open if you want to watch the VOD's later on in a spoiler free manner): + Show Spoiler + Azelja won 4-2 | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
XiA has done some amazing work with the Starbow file. The good thing is that I just need to look at how everything is built 'and then I just rebuild it in an other file. I have done ca 1/3 of all work and I plan to be finished at the start of next week. So far so good. Now my questions and concerns: Shall the Ghost continue to have Lockdown? Some argues that it is the worst spell in the game. It is boring, it is always a hit, nothing to do against it etc. Before I remake this spell, is there anything else the Ghost should have instead? Ideas? - Nerve Jammer? Let it be? If not, what can it be replaced with so the Vessel gets a good starting spell? - Corsair/Phoenix? How awesome is the Corsair? Is it time to move on and let the Phoenix take the spot instead? Pew pew pew pew... - Spider mines? There are many types of mines in the editor. How can mines be improved to add better gameplay to the game? Or is the current form of the spider mine the best way to go? - What can the Swarm Guardian be called? I need an other word for Guardian... Swarm Lord..? Swarm protector..? Again, this is stuff I haven't rebuilt yet. Just wanna see if there are some good alternative ideas... | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
For protoss units this would cause most of their mechanical unit to just have their abilities go on Cooldown. For terran futher it could also force their units to transform to default form. Maybe even a way to make supply depots lower for Stealth missions and turning off the detection of stationary defences. Just some brainstorming. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I like Sumadin's suggestion to the EMP. Maybe give it back to the ghost as well and let the vessel have something new? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
I feel that the vessel got all the good spells and ghost is stuck with the boring ones (and rarely used ones). I agree with this. I never liked the WOL/HOTS version of the ghost, and after having looked at the Starbow changes to the ghost, I still don't feel like building the unit - Simply put it is quite boring. It does, indeed need some kind of ability that changes the way the game is played in some way - especially since it is quite expensive. Even though I don't like the specific design of Stasis, I like the role of the ability as it is kind of a skillbased way of breaking siege lines (ok I admit that it's not that challenging from a mechanically perspective - but it's better than the WOL siege breaker - The immortal - where you just a move and where the terran player has no way to counter it). So I guess both snipe and lockdown are kinda like this; Click on the opponents units and X will happen no matter what. I always feel like there needs to be some kind of counter option from the opponent. I found two approaches to make counter play counter play realistic; 1) Make it a projectile that too some extent is avoidable. However, I generally believe that most abilities needs to do guaranteed damage, so even if your pretty good at avoiding the ability you will still take a bit of damage. 2) Make it AOE based in some way. For instance irradiate works pretty well in that regard - It does guaranteed damage to the target unit and then the opponent can minimize its damage by moving the irradiated unit away. Another AOE approach is the way storm works where you can minimize damage by moving your units out of the storm ASAP. So how can we use the above information in a redesign of lockdown? Well it kinda depends on what role we believe lockdown should have. I believe that its intended role currently is to counter "expensive units". So this means that it probably should be "projectile-based" rather than AOE based. Basically I believe it needs to do a guaranteed "damage" ranging from 25-50% of its optimal damage. Be aware that abilities like "stunning" should be included in the damage caluclations as well. Then the remaining 50-75% "damage" could be projectile based (or at least there needs to be some way for the opponent to counter it). Giving the opponent a way to counter the lockdown also makes it possible to buff the ability (speaking from a balance perspective). The reason why snipe in WOL had to be nerfed so that it was almost unusable vs hive units was because the opponent had no way to counter it. But when you add counter-options you can buff the damage output of the ability it self. Regarding, Nerve jammer, I almost never find my self in a situation where my SV's have over 125 energy so I rarely use it. Basically I have to say that I dislike abilities where you need to wait a long time before you can use it. I prefer to make abilities less risk/less reward in that regard, and that is why I would always choose to set a maximum energy of the unit at 150 rather than 200 and reduce 125 energy abilities to 100. If that makes the ability too strong it can be nerfed slightly. Though, could you please make the visual ability of nerve jammer slightly stronger? I find it a bit difficult to notice at times. Spider mines: Just keep the current version of them. Well i see that EMP is on science wessels but i had an idea for an addition to EMP a while ago. Basicly a true electromanegtic pulse that would make mechanical units fizzle. What it means is that while all of them can attack normally their special abilities turn off. This is a problematic ability because it minimizes the amount of micro that the opponent can pull off during the game. Abilities needs to add an extra element to the game - Not remove stuff. And secondly there isn't really any counter option to this (besides moving away which makes it kinda boring as well). | ||
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ciox
58 Posts
- terran: Restoration on the disabled units - protoss: Recall disabled units to safety - zerg: unaffected | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On March 15 2013 20:46 Hider wrote: This is a problematic ability because it minimizes the amount of micro that the opponent can pull off during the game. Abilities needs to add an extra element to the game - Not remove stuff. And secondly there isn't really any counter option to this (besides moving away which makes it kinda boring as well). I should have gone in detail, they can still attack and move normally. This ability would only affect their abilities. The main reason i wanted it to act like EMP was because of Blink stalkers. You EMP a bunch them and they can't blink. Then again Blink stalkers aren't that big of a treat vs Terran. The hole aspect of disabling mechanical units this way could be a single target ability like Lockdown is currently. You disable or "hack" a siege tank and make revert to ground form. You hack the supply depot to make it lower without alerting everyone. Hack a mechanical detector to turn it off temporary. True stealth style. Since it would be single target and does no true damage it can be extremely energy light (25 max) and thus not wreck the stealth timer like EMP does. The Counter to them would simply be to NOT let a ghost near your tank lines. And it is not too devastating if it happens but can still lose you the game. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
The Counter to them would simply be to NOT let a ghost near your tank lines. And it is not too devastating if it happens but can still lose you the game. This is not really what I mean by counter. You can apply the same idea to fungal growth: THe counter to fungal growth is to not clump up your units. Indeed, you can do it some times, but if it just happens once then it destroys teh gameplay. Obivously single-target abilities have a much less devasting impact, and that is why they can get away with design flaws to a larger extent. But nevertheless, when you can't counter an ability after it has been casted, then I think they are either flawed if they reduce the amount of micro in the battle (which will happen if the opponent can't as many abilities) or it is boring, which happens if it just deal X damage (like yamato cannon). So the thing is; - I want protoss players to blink, and I would prefer if they could blink all of their stalkers one by one in a battle. I don't want them to not be able to blink just because the terran players clicked lockdown a couple of times on the stalkers. - I want protoss players to use the nullifiers vertical line attack, and I want to see how well the terran player can remicro against that abililty. I don't want a terran player just clicking lockdown a couple of times on the nullifier --> Less micro needed in the remaining part of the battle. ..... etc. So that is why I think this suggested lockdown will take the game in the wrong direction. It won't make it terrible, as it is just a single target ability, however I rather not have it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I mean, what are you going to use it for? Siege tanks/Reavers/Tempest/Carriers/Arbiters? That's very exciting, because it is very risky due to their huge range and basically only possible if you can counter his detection for a brief moment. medium units like Stalkers/Vultures/Goliath? Not sure if this is costefficient. And if it is, you are killing only very few stalkers, so it's again, exciting! Basically the only problematic interactions imo are BCs and in combat drops (warp prisms with reaver). And I'd definatly wait to see this at least a few times. I mean bio vs air Terran and bio vs reaver play... Fuck yeah, I don't care how boring it is to play in the longrun, if it develops - please leave it for a little bit. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Here are the VOD's: Game 1: + Show Spoiler + Game 2: + Show Spoiler + Game 3: + Show Spoiler + Game 4: + Show Spoiler + Game 5: + Show Spoiler + Game 6: + Show Spoiler + Game 7: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On March 16 2013 07:04 Xiphias wrote: Xiphias Vs Azelja Showmatch Here are the VOD's: Game 1: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUekvu2zzsQ Game 2: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvveRJliitE Game 3: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFsh_Gi-ndE Game 4: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzYn4xQI4uw Game 5: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO0KtJkjI_c Game 6: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E7wvBR9Wfw Game 7: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0cPYCCbgD4 Bawwww. You seemed to be improving the further on it got. GG's. | ||
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Zain3
Sweden45 Posts
you bastard! | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
More bases equals more places to attack and defend, which promotes multiple attacks, smaller skirmishes and harassment over deathball play. This is the types of gameplay I would like to encourage since I find it enjoyable. Dynamic Economics Ive been looking allot at the success of DOTA recently and one thing I have noticed is this theme of dynamic economics. By this I mean that the acquisition of resources is an engaging and decision intense activity. So DOTA traditionally has two resources: XP and gold. XP is a steady resource that is gained at a roughly constant just by keeping your hero near creeps that are dieing. In contrast gold is a resource that is dependent on the skill of the player to get the last hit on a creep. This roughly parallels Starcraft 2's resource system where gas is a steady resource and minerals are skill dependent on how well the player uses their macro mechanics. ![[image loading]](http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9497/mineral.jpg) Why Dynamic Economics are important The difference between the DOTA and Starcraft 2 resource system lies in the decision making involved in gathering the resource. Positional decision making refers to where a player does something where as temporal decision making refers to when a player does something. Last hitting a hero has much decision making. The player has to make decisions regarding what position their hero is as well as positioning to target the attack or ability against the creep they are trying to kill. Last hitting also emphasizes temportal decision making. You have to time your attack very precisely to be the last one hit the creep. The timing of this varies much depending on battlefield situations such as the amount of your creeps attacking the enemy creep, enemy heroes and what hero/abilities you are using to kill the creep. There is no "best answer" on how to last hit and this allows for skill expression by the players. In contrast, macroing as a zerg consists of casting spawn larva on your hatchery (no positional decision making) every 30 seconds (no temporal decision making). ![[image loading]](http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/thumb/6/61/Gnollassassincamp.jpg/250px-Gnollassassincamp.jpg) How Dynamic Economics can be accomplished Im going to give an example on how this decision making can be brought into resource harvesting but this is just an example. I would perfer than rather than get caught up on wierdness of "regenerating rocks" people just consider the concepts and goals I am trying accomplish. This proposal borrows heavily from the DOTA concept of creep camps which are creeps that spawn at set locations at set times that players can farm for gold. Consider if, in addition to your traditional resource lines you also had small pockets of minerals that spawned at set locations around the map every X minerals. These minerals could be harvested by workers and would only require a couple seconds of harvesting before being completely mined out. The workers would return with these minerals to the Command Center. This encourages players to go out into the map with workers to harvest and involves both positional and temporal decision making. It also creates "multiple attacks, smaller skirmishes and harassment over deathball play." | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Good points. I have thought similar things myself. I have actually written two other games that follows roughly the principle you describe. Due to school and work, I will probably never have time to make them in the editor. But one of the reasons I got tired of Starbow a while ago was due to the fundamental "problems" that are within Starcraft, for example the horrible economic system and some other areas. To change that would require a huuuuge rework of the game and maybe change it behind recognition. While I do continue my work on Starbow, I still have the feeling that I trying to rebuild a rusty old car into a sport vehicle. No matter how much I polish, change tiers, add comfortable seats, repaint it etc, this will never be a sport car... Unless I replace the engine  Yeah yeah. I am currently rebuilding everything in Starbow from scratch since HoTS messed up the old Starbow file completely. I have done 75% of all work now. I still consider to throw in something that changes the economy a bit, maybe wagons or something else. I'll see what I can do in the editor. But on the other hand, this project is supposed to stay true to the genre of Starcraft, so I will not add something too radical. Now don´t get me wrong. Starcraft is an excellent game, even though I have realized that it is limited by it's fundamental design in many ways. Starbow can ofc become a really enjoyable and good game too. That is atleast what I aim for ^^ | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Just thought about this. If terran gets reapers and hellions and even medivacs, they have many more ways of putting on early game aggression and mid-game aggression, and maybe nerfing creep as well (e.g. by giving only active tumors vision) might be too much. Maybe we should try giving terran these tools before nerfing creep? Just a thought. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On March 17 2013 15:29 decemberscalm wrote: Oh! Forgot to tell you Xiphias. All APM counters lie. Use SC2 gears to check actual apm. No matter what the counter measured. I had more than him | ||
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