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@Reuse old WoL maps
I would like to use maps that are not too assosciated with SC2. I want Starbow to be played on maps people are not used to, which makes it feel different. Besides, WoL maps tend to not fit the gameplay of Starbow that well, due to bases being so clumped up and for other reasons. Unless they are modified ofc.
@HoTS dependencies in a WoL MOD file
Anyone knows what is the best way to include the new HoTS dependencies into the Starbow file? It already contains two WoL dependencies and I get a warning that it might cause some trouble when I try to add the HoTS stuff...
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If we add some of the new maps that was been made as I suggested and keep the once we have, I think we have enough.
@ Kabel's changes
I am looking at these changes and I am thinking that this won't work, but then I remind myself that we are testing IF they will work. Things can always be changed again if needed. Good to keep in mind. 
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On March 13 2013 20:40 Kabel wrote:
@Reuse old WoL maps
I would like to use maps that are not too assosciated with SC2. I want Starbow to be played on maps people are not used to, which makes it feel different. Besides, WoL maps tend to not fit the gameplay of Starbow that well, due to bases being so clumped up and for other reasons. Unless they are modified ofc.
@HoTS dependencies in a WoL MOD file
Anyone knows what is the best way to include the new HoTS dependencies into the Starbow file? It already contains two WoL dependencies and I get a warning that it might cause some trouble when I try to add the HoTS stuff...
While your concerns about useing WOL maps are valid, There are plenty of unheard of WOL maps that have anti-deathball features that could suit Starbow, there are alot of maps which have only seen the light of day in custom maps threads and MOTM tournaments.
This map for example, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327869, is a remake of crossfire with more bases added and open space to contrast the tight chokes in the middle, with the open space for micro and the movement inhibiting choke-points, I think this could work very well for Starbow.
There are a bunch of these maps sitting in the custom maps forum we could use, no one would associate them with WOL at all.
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@WoL maps
Yeah absolutely. There are many unknown WoL maps that indeed might fit Starbow. I thought you meant the "standard" ones, like Tal Darim, Cloud Kingdom etc
@Xiphias
What concerns you?
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What is your reasoning for keeping the transformation to hellbat in the game? How do you think it can create interesting scenario's and reward skill?
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We have discussed this via PM. You want me to add just the Hellion and not the Hellbat. Maybe that turns out to be the best idea. But at this point, since the Terran line-up is the most radical new thing I try, I might as well go the whole way. It would just feel strange to NOT try the Hellbat if I shall add the Hellion. As I have stated, if this new line-up is not optimal, there will be room for further adjustments. Terran is currently the race in Starbow I am most unsatisfied with. I wanna see how the game can become with a little rearrangement for T.
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On March 13 2013 21:21 Kabel wrote:
We have discussed this via PM. You want me to add just the Hellion and not the Hellbat. Maybe that turns out to be the best idea. But at this point, since the Terran line-up is the most radical new thing I try, I might as well go the whole way. It would just feel strange to NOT try the Hellbat if I shall add the Hellion. As I have stated, if this new line-up is not optimal, there will be room for further adjustments. Terran is currently the race in Starbow I am most unsatisfied with. I wanna see how the game can become with a little rearrangement for T.
Well I argued why I thought the hellbat had a bad unit design, but I asked you specifically in this thread because you didn't reply.
And in the above reponse I don't really see any arguments (?), besides "strange not to add it", and" might as well go whole the way".
Well, "might as well go whole the whole", makes sense if your already proces of making radical changes and think that the game can get even better by making further radical changes to units that aren't fundemnetally broken. That was why I suggested a small damage change to the marine, because I think it could make the game even better even though it probably would work fine if unchanged.
However, how exactly will the game be better by adding the hellbat? I also think there are far more strange things in Starbow than hellions not being able to transform? For instance reapers with spider mines is quite strange I would like to say?
You previously said you wanted to make Starbow the best possible game (somewhere those lines), and I just want to know why you think the hellbat will make Starbow a better game? I feel like every change/every addition to the game should have some kind of theoretical reasoning for why it makes the game better. Just adding random units/abilities is more a Blizzard-thing and honestly it hasn't worked out very well for them.
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As I said Hider, we have discussed this via PM already. But ok, give me a minute and I will fix a post about it
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Just reread your pm, missed the last part apparently. Sorry about that:
Anyway you argue you can charge hellions into tnak fires and then transform them into hellbats (as you want to use a short transformation mode). The problem I have with that is that it isn't very skill based. Basicallyou this will require just 4 actions that all can be shift clicked.
"1", hold shift down", "right click", "D".
If on the other hand you keep the hellion and add a damage reduction when moving, the amount of actions required to use them optimally will be almost inifitely higher, and hellions will be still be decent at breaking siege lines.
So bascially the transmortation mode has a very low skill ceiting from a mechanically perspective while moving around with fast easily microable units such as hellions, reapers and vultures doesn't.
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@Regarding my Terran changes
I want to strengthen these gameplay aspects:
- Punish players who clump up their army
- Reward players that seperate their army!
- Give races (mainly P and T) more early map presence.
- Make bio and mech able to work better together.
- Make bio units viable in all match ups.
So in this post I will share my thoughts regarding the rearrangement for Terran.
Ok, what can players do in this simple combat situation to make their units more effective?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pu3x3R6.jpg)
- Focus fire
- Back away with wounded units
- Use special tricks: place spider mines, morph to lurkers, burrow
Yeah yeah but what can players do in this simple combat situation to make their units more effective?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sE94Ufo.jpg)
- Focus fire
- Back away with wounded units
- Position the Hellions so the line attack hits as many enemy units as possible.
- Spread out the Hydras to minimize the damage from the AoE attack.
- Use special tricks: transform to Hellbat, morph to lurker, burrow
Launch spider mines is funnier in combat than transform to Hellbat. Since Reapers will get the spider mines instead, Terran will not lose anything! They will still have Spider mines PLUS earlier AoE from the Hellions/Hellbat. This means that Terran would get:
- More early map presence via Hellions AND Reapers
- More ways to force the enemy to spread out via Reapers with Spider mines AND Hellions.
- Stronger synergy between bio + mech units. (Hellions + Maries for early pressure, Reapers + Spider mines + Tanks to contain the enemy)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h0URrWe.jpg)
But why the Hellbat?
The Firebat is currently the only "tanky" unit Terran has, that can absorb quite a lot of damage for it's cost. Lets look at what makes a Firebat unique in the Terran army:
- It is tanky and has high HP for it's cost.
- It is generally slow BUT can be boosted via Stim pack.
- It has a melee attack that deals AoE damage.
- It is suppose to "block" enemy units with it's size.
The Hellion currently steals two characteristics from the Firebat:
- AoE fire attack
- Fast speed
IF Hellions can morph into Hellbats, we get a natural way to add a tanky unit to Terran. The Hellbat would:
- Be a tanky unit with high HP for it's cost.
- Would be very slow
- Melee attack with AoE
- Can "block" enemy units
The Hellion + Hellbat would simply be a reincarnation of the Firebat with even more uses than before! I think that would fit better than to have Firebat + Hellion.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qUiSoZe.jpg)
What would this add to the Terran gameplay?
- If the Hellbat is slow, compared to the speed it has in HoTS, it might work more as a positional unit in the regard that Terran wanna transform to them at the right moment and at the right spot. Maybe to guard tanks, protect marines, block choke points. Just what the Firebat was "suppose" to do.
- It would broaden the use of the narrow Hellion. Just as Spider mines broadens the use of the very narrow Reaper.
- This might promote even more bio + mech combinations.
How would the Hellbat require skill to use?
This is once again a broad definition of skill. I can agree that it would not be the hardest unit to work with, if we regard skill as being micro. But if we look at skill in that isolated environment, how does a spider mine require skill? What makes a sieged up siege tank require skill? What made a Firebat require skill?
- Positional play
- When and where to use it
- It brings indirect skill to the combat, since the controller needs to manage the unit along with the other parts of the army. In the same way, the enemy player need to react to it and NOT send the Zerglings into a wall of Hellbats. Rather try to flank etc.
Of course the Hellbat shall not be an A-move unit that moves fast and melts everything that comes in it's way. It shall just make a specific area dangerous, but will likely require to transform into Hellion for optimal movement. Maybe there are other ways to improve this unit:
- make it have a cooldown between when it can transform into different modes?
- change stats?
- be healable by Medics to further make mech + bio combinations useful in more match ups?
As usual, if you find flaws, errors, logical misstakes, insanity or whatever in my posts and arguments, please point them out. Thats why I bring the discussion here in the thread so everyone can critize, contribute ideas, questions, thoughts etc.
And this is just theorycrafting x100000000000000000000, maybe it turns out that this will not work in reality in the game. I just look at it at paper first before I try to realize it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FMC2M7Y.jpg)
Realistic scenario or just lame game play?
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I do not think bio needs to mines, because the true power of bio is the mobility, which together with the high number of units transported via drop, it becomes really strong if used for multiple attacks.
Mech is different, is vulnerable if not positioned, and mines serve to give time to their position, and of maintaining a certain degree of security. I think we need to add mines (maybe with less damage) at hellion. To make the mines more interesting, follow these proposed changes in the past:
I did copy / paste from the old thread + Show Spoiler +
"The main task of the vulture, is to place mines. Without them, the mech is destroyed from a group of zealots. The problem of mines, is immobility after being placed, this favors a game of positioning.
Solution: we give mines a run time (60 s). After 60 seconds of the mine life dies. We give the Possibility at vulture to generate the mines in 30 seconds (no cost), and can accumulate up to a maximum of three mines."
Edit: if hellion receives mines, you should remove transformation.
@reaper
Prefer wol reaper with bonus vs light, main problem is your high gas cost.
You could solve the problem by these modifications:
Reduce gas cost, and add an upgrade that allows the reaper to climb over the hills.
Reduce damage vs build, if you want to keep this attack.
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Hey Kabel thanks for you detailed post. Anyway, below are my disagreements.
- Positional play
How? You have it in front of your tank line, just like you would have vultures/hellions in front of them. However unlike hellions/vultures there are no further room for kiting or anything.
- When and where to use it
I previously talked about simple decisions, and why I don't think they are the best way to promote skill. Basically stuff like this will get figured out pretty quickly. The hots hellbat version is super easy to figure out, but even if you make a sginificant redesign of the hellbat, then I think its just a question of time before the skillcap is reached in that regard.
It brings indirect skill to the combat, since the controller needs to manage the unit along with the other parts of the army. In the same way, the enemy player need to react to it and NOT send the Zerglings into a wall of Hellbats. Rather try to flank etc.
But isn't flanking already the optimal thing to do against a mech army?
I do agree though that there might be a bit of different skillset invovled in making sure speedlings attacks goliaths/tanks rather than hellbats. Against hellions this is difficult to accomplish as hellions are fast enough to always be positioned close to your tanks. But isn't that kind of gameplay something you wanted to discourage (keeping your army tightly packed)?
And from my experiecne with HOTS there is just very little excitement about hellbats when they are out on the field. Especially in Starbow (as armies are very small) I believe it is very easy to always have your hellbats in front of your army.
And often times when you go mec,h your not out in the middle of the map. Instead you play defensively which means that flanking often times isn't an option for the opponent
Secondly, if you make the transformation time very short, then it will create a superweird speedling vs hellion dynamic:
Like lets say you control a group of hellions which are about to be surrounded by speedlings. But you press one button and ½ second after, all the speedlings are dead. That scenario leads me to believe that it needs to have a low DPS if the transformation period is very short.
But if its DPS is poor, wouldn't you just prefer to use fast hellions instead as they (both in larger battles and smaller micro situations) will be preferable to a weaker version of hellbats.
The only situation I can see where that will be not be the case is when you have a big group of hellbats blocking a path, backed by some medis (for healing) and a couple of tanks (for DPS). However, if thats the optimal way to use the hellbat, then it will likely lead to a situation where it is mostly usefull in larger numbers, but useless if you just have few of them.
The above scenario also reminds me of how matrix currently works. While it initially require some APM to put them on your tanks before a battle, it also suffers from killing micro afterwards. Basically, tanks blocking a path results in terran not to having to micro his units afterwards (besides pressing "t" every 9th second). in WOL using bio/tank had a way larger skill cap cus you need to split, target fire, kite etc. Matrix will get fixed next patch, but I fear that a tanky low DPS hellbat (as it can't have a high DPS if you plan to make the transformation time short), will lead to the "matrix-problem" I just described.
Regarding whether terran needs a "true" tanky unit
I think with 80 HP to the hellion and 15% damage reduction while not standing still, this will actually work as a tanky unit. But the main difference is that there is no easy way out for terrans by just "pressing D" when a battle occurs. Instead, he will need to constantly kite and move it back and fourth to optimize its use.
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On March 13 2013 23:35 JohnnyZerg wrote:I do not think bio needs to mines, because the true power of bio is the mobility, which together with the high number of units transported via drop, it becomes really strong if used for multiple attacks. Mech is different, is vulnerable if not positioned, and mines serve to give time to their position, and of maintaining a certain degree of security. I think we need to add mines (maybe with less damage) at hellion. To make the mines more interesting, follow these proposed changes in the past: I did copy / paste from the old thread + Show Spoiler +"The main task of the vulture, is to place mines. Without them, the mech is destroyed from a group of zealots. The problem of mines, is immobility after being placed, this favors a game of positioning. Solution: we give mines a run time (60 s). After 60 seconds of the mine life dies. We give the Possibility at vulture to generate the mines in 30 seconds (no cost), and can accumulate up to a maximum of three mines." Edit: if hellion receives mines, you should remove transformation. @reaper Prefer wol reaper with bonus vs light, main problem is your high gas cost. You could solve the problem by these modifications: Reduce gas cost, and add an upgrade that allows the reaper to climb over the hills. Reduce damage vs build, if you want to keep this attack.
Johhny: In starbow high gas cost is very beneficial. I also don't think the HOTS reaper will funciton very well with starbow, as I think the hellion + reaper combination needs (combined) to be able to replace the vulture. With just 4 damage this combination will absolutely suck (like 10 vultures > 5 reapers + 5 hellions).
What you describe about vultures and mines is very correct as it favors a game of position; But that is in my opinion exactly why it works!
Mech is IMO supposed to be immobile, and should require a great game plan in order to work. Bio can be more focussed on micro and multitasking (and less "thinking").
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@Hellbat/Hellion
The fundamental question is: Does Terran need a "tanky" melee unit at all?
I agree with some of the concerns you raise regarding the Hellbat - it might lead to more unit clumping & less need for micro when attacked. But on the other hand, the same problems was with the Firebat and yet it did not feel as problems?
I think the damage reduction idea is interesting. But is that what Terran needs?
I mean, Terran have so many units that are weak when not microed. Generally they are worse than the other races units. When microed, they can become stronger than the other races units. This would further enchance that aspect, which of course most not be a bad thing! Preferably all units should become much stronger when microed, for all races.
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Let's try this! That's all I have to say. Let us discuss these changes AFTER we have played MANY games with them.
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I just wanna be sure that the concepts hold in theory first, so I have something to bring into the editor. Otherwise I would just make changes in all direction without knowing why I do them.
Will you play the show matches today btw?
Edit:
I post this technical question again.
Anyone knows how to include the HoTS dependencies (Swarm Mod) & (Swarm Campaign) into the Starbow MOD-file?
This just causes troubles for me and I fear that it will break the current data I have in Starbow. What is the best way to do this? Have both Liberty Mod + Liberty Campaign + Swarm Mod + Swarm Campaign dependencies in Starbow MOD-file? Or replace the Liberty dependecies?
I wanna start with my work but I can´t go on unless I solve this properly : /
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Showmatch will start very shortly. Join "Starbow" channel to obs!
@Kabel
Ask in battle.net forum, think more plp now there.
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On March 14 2013 01:12 Kabel wrote:
@Hellbat/Hellion
The fundamental question is: Does Terran need a "tanky" melee unit at all?
I agree with some of the concerns you raise regarding the Hellbat - it might lead to more unit clumping & less need for micro when attacked. But on the other hand, the same problems was with the Firebat and yet it did not feel as problems?
I think the damage reduction idea is interesting. But is that what Terran needs?
I mean, Terran have so many units that are weak when not microed. Generally they are worse than the other races units. When microed, they can become stronger than the other races units. This would further enchance that aspect, which of course most not be a bad thing! Preferably all units should become much stronger when microed, for all races.
I don't think terran units as a general rule should be bad if not micro'ed properly. But there should be a clear reward for doing so, and the reward is definitely there in smaller battles for the hellion. In larger battles, unfortuntaty, you can't really do a lot more than just minimal kiting (or you can, its just a waste of actions - trying to get the "line-angle" is almost always inefficient in battles as your hellions will die before getting any shot off). However, my suggested hellion rewards players for moving hellions back and fourth and trying to get that perfect line-angle. So while some players can get reward for just clickcing randomly with hellions - The best players get rewarded for moving hellions back and fourth and optimizing line AOE.
But remember this as well; The damage reduction is just 15%. Its not 100% (which I believe would make micro too important). It won't be useless for every gold league player out there. You can still go tank/hellion/reaper and win by a great postioinal game rather than 150+ battle APM.
And you can now also choose to incorprate hellions into bio play will be the most microintensive composition in the game - and rightfuly so, because now terran players have a choice;
Bad micro --> Go mech.
Great micro --> Go bio.
And I don't think there is any reason for why we should be satisfied with a certain skill cap at the level of micro required for bio. As long as the "easy to learn"-concept is applied, then I think every single unit in the amy should have as high a skill cap as possible. So if we can make small tweaks to one unit which makes it more difficult to use optimally but doesn't destroy the experience for gold league players, then I think such a change is benefical.
Do I make sense?
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Is anybody going to stream games? I have completely deleted whole sc2 from my PC and now i have some problems with download. Would be cool to obs a bit.
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So after 9 hours of speedplaying the campaign, i can tell a few things in the campaign you might wanna look for in the editor that will be useable in this map.
Needless to say this will leave heavy spoilers through
+ Show Spoiler +I mean it heavy spoilers, only open if you don't care or already played the campaign + Show Spoiler + Okay here we go:
Brood lords spawns from Mutalisks!
I guess the corrupter was simply too boring for the campaign so what they did was to make the Brood lord spawn from Mutalisks like in this map. Now the good part of this is that it comes with its own model both for the cocoons and the mutalisks. I can't tell if the brood lords was an altered model, they were very simmilar regardless. Might be worth looking after those models.
Lurkers are there!
Of course Lurkers would get to be a unit but on top of that it is an evolution of the Hydralisk. The lurker itself is nothing special but there is a lurker den, and the hydras have a different model for their Lurker evolution form. Go check it out.
So yea, i probably forgot some things, but you might wanna check that out.
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EPT
