EPTWho has had a greater impact on the Protoss race? - Page 6
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G5
United States2898 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:37 Tom Phoenix wrote: "Bonjwa" is merely a slang term for a player that was dominant for any lengthy period of time. There is no standard formula by which players are given the title. The fact that Boxer never achieved the perceived requirements and is still considered Bonjwa preety much confirms the fact that the entire "3 MSL+1 OSL" formula is a fabrication. Anyway, it is true that Bisu revolutionised the PvZ matchup (although Daezang and Nal_rA did develop the basic concepts). However, is being influential in one matchup really enough for one to be considered the most influential in the entire race? In my opinion, no. That's a good point you brought about the Bonjwa thing. And actually, Plexa also covered Nal_rA's contribution in PvT (which were obviously eclipsed by his PvZ). I'm not too sure about the PvP contribution. And if were to find a single player that changed or at least contributed a lot every Protoss Matchup, I vote for rA. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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Coulthard
Greece3359 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
also, Anytime is 2nd imo | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
haha, too true. I voted Bisu. I appreciate GARIMTO's foundational work in Protoss strategy and all of Nal_rA's contributions, but I feel the single most important moment in the history of Protoss was Bisu 3 > 0 sAviOr in the MSL Finals. This series ended the reign of the last bonjwa, upset the age-old Z>P balance, and obviously threw Bisu's PvZ style into the limelight and altered how Protoss players everywhere handled Zerg opponents. I disagree that Bisu's contribution to PvZ play is somehow diminished by the fact that DZ showed an early version of his build before the fateful MSL Finals series. Being influential in SC is not only about coming up with paradigm-shifting strategies, but also significantly about bringing those strategies "to the masses" with great execution in high-pressure, high-profile situations. Just as SK Terran is named after Soulkey but is (rightfully) associated with NaDa, the Bisu build may have been pioneered by Daezang but owes its popularity and historical significance to Bisu's dramatic use of it to topple Savior in GOM S1. | ||
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
Nal Ra all the way. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
then MANTOSS arrived and gave them the masculinity to compete!!!! Reach autovote :p p.s. should really be rA, but w/e, gotta support Mantoss when you can. | ||
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amish
United States85 Posts
On May 08 2009 15:34 EchOne wrote: The lack of Reach votes makes me a sad puppy. I was under the impression that he was integral to forging PvT as we know it. As well as being MANLY | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:37 Tom Phoenix wrote: EDIT: Aylear, you should watch the replay  GARIMTO vs.  ChoJJa on MBCGame Lost Temple, StarCraft version 1.10. I think you will find that Garimto uses a very....familiar strategy.Man, some times when I'm watching GARIMTO replays I feel like I'm watching a much more recent game. Before I go on, thanks for the recommendation. You're awesome. Well, I'm assuming you meant the game where GARIMTO went Sair/Reaver. Great stuff, but this was in late 2003. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, Sair/Reaver was not a new concept by this time, whereas the more recent development into Sair/DT was a risky but ultimately rewarding move. Besides, one of the first to attempt this build in a huge game with everything on the line - something he so often did with vigor and without hesitation - was rA. The concept of Sair/Reaver, like so much else, had been floating around for a while, but it's the person who recognizes the inherent brilliance of something and subsequently develops it to become staple who makes the bigger impact. Edison didn't invent the light bulb, but he's sure the name we all know. I love GARIMTO. So much. But it's also important to remember (reluctantly, for those of us who were his fans) that GARIMTO fell from his perch. Meanwhile, rA emerged and continued to impact the game through several eras. Hell, in 1.08 - in 2001 - rA made a brilliant PvZ FE build, and he used Sairs liberally. Later, some of the builds he created were considered the best possible builds against a specific race, and this in a time where the level of competition was steadily increasing. He used Arbiters against Terran in a way that was absurd and has since become staple. He also dared to use Reavers in the late-game in PvZ. And, less important to Protoss impact but still relevant to propelling Protoss into the limelight: He invented more proxy builds with absurdly magnificent placement than anyone else in Protoss history. On May 09 2009 00:23 JWD wrote: I voted Bisu. I appreciate GARIMTO's foundational work in Protoss strategy and all of Nal_rA's contributions, but I feel the single most important moment in the history of Protoss was Bisu 3 > 0 sAviOr in the MSL Finals. This series ended the reign of the last bonjwa, upset the age-old Z>P balance, and obviously threw Bisu's PvZ style into the limelight and altered how Protoss players everywhere handled Zerg opponents. I disagree that Bisu's contribution to PvZ play is somehow diminished by the fact that DZ showed an early version of his build before the fateful MSL Finals series. Being influential in SC is not only about coming up with paradigm-shifting strategies, but also significantly about bringing those strategies "to the masses" with great execution in high-pressure, high-profile situations. Just as SK Terran is named after Soulkey but is (rightfully) associated with NaDa, the Bisu build may have been pioneered by Daezang but owes its popularity and historical significance to Bisu's dramatic use of it to topple Savior in GOM S1. I understand and accept your argument regarding Bisu's undeniable impact, which is substantial and is what this poll is about, but I disagree with your disagreement. First off, DaezanG went 5-0 against Z using the build now called the "Bisu Build". That's not just a random event -- that's the origin of Bisu's victory, which is not something I am willing to discount. Bisu's impeccable game sense and perfect execution is what made him 3-0 Savior, but he did so with the help of a strategy - a strategy which would soon revolutionize Protoss - that was devised and used previously by someone else. Second, as much as that 3-0 series awed me, I also disagree that this series - and Bisu's involvement in it - had a bigger impact on Protoss than did the entirety of rA's sovereignty. It may have been a single, defining moment for Protoss, but, to me, it doesn't outweigh everything rA and GARIMTO did over the course of their entire careers. | ||
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Tuke
Finland1666 Posts
Im other hand, the question is: "Who has had a greater impact on the Protoss race?" so even though bisu didn't invent bisu-build or FE PvZ, he optimized and popularized those, so in that way he had the most greatest impact on protoss race, since FE PvZ in used like in 90% of games or so, in all skill levels. | ||
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 09 2009 01:07 Aylear wrote: Hell, in 1.08 - in 2001 - rA made a brilliant PvZ FE build, and he used Sairs liberally. How do you know that? Unlike with Nada, who was a ladder rapist, I don't recall hearing anything about rA until after he turned pro. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 09 2009 01:22 Mindcrime wrote: How do you know that? Unlike with Nada, who was a ladder rapist, I don't recall hearing anything about rA until after he turned pro. If you don't know of this, but you know of rA's exploits in general, then it's definitely not valid as an example of his impact, and I apologize. He did invent a PvZ FE build that became staple later; Plexa can perhaps confirm the time period. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote: Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world. In terms of contribution, Nal_rA did really contribute a lot. Bisu was the hero that destroyed everyone, not to mention that he was winning during the Legend of Fall period. Actually, to be a Bonjwa, you need to walk the path of the Bonjwa, which is to win 3 msls then the OSL. So far, there are 4 Bonjwa's: Boxer, NaDa, Oov, and Savior. Boxer didn't walk the path of the bonjwa, but getting into 2 straight OSL finals is something, plus, he held the KePSA #1 rank for more than a year. So, strictly speaking, Bisu isn't really a Bonjwa but he had the dominance that every Bonjwa had. Bisu hasn't even gotten an OSL finals and, until he does, he's just a footnote in protoss history. There's something to be said for 3 MSLs, but greatness always seemed to top itself like oov, savior and nada with that OSL that Bisu has had so many shots at and never even made it past best of 4. He was really really hot for a good period after he beat savior and pretty much started the current trend of playing, but that was short-lived and pretty much a dead idea after Jaedong won Ever and Flash won Bacchus, overshadowing the protoss race and its lack of a truly dominant player who can win an OSL (Poor Stork, consistently high ranked but never truly dominant like Bisu, and poor Bisu, can never get that OSL). Bisu 3rd msl win was so far apart from his second and if he DOES win the OSL, it will be so far apart from his MSL wins that it seems like just a gradual accumulation of success instead of a real reign over a period. The only guy who has a real chance at claiming a dominant for an era mystique would be Jaedong, if and only if he pulls a Boxer with 2 straight OSL wins and a golden mouse. I doubt it's gonna happen, too. Bisu's dominance was too far spread to be considered bonjwa like and his success is a shadow of what it should be. | ||
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