Who has had a greater impact on the Protoss race?

On May 08 2009 14:19 iLoveKTF wrote:
Nal_ra no contest. Why the hell is Bisu so close in votes to Nal_ra?!

On May 08 2009 14:24 LeperKahn wrote:


Making PvZ something winnable seems like an accomplishment to me.

On May 08 2009 14:53 De4ngus wrote:
Lol, this is like one of those map polls with Python in it. Everyone in the thread says "DESTINATION!!" or whatever, and Python still ends up winning somehow. Seriously, I only see one post voting for Bisu, and the rest are for Ra, but Bisu is winning in the poll?

On May 08 2009 14:53 De4ngus wrote:
Lol, this is like one of those map polls with Python in it. Everyone in the thread says "DESTINATION!!" or whatever, and Python still ends up winning somehow. Seriously, I only see one post voting for Bisu, and the rest are for Ra, but Bisu is winning in the poll?

On May 08 2009 14:00 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Stork revolutionized the way Protoss react to Terrans who get their tank sniped after a fast CC.

For that he gets my vote

On May 08 2009 15:27 mikeymoo wrote:
rA rA shish boom bA

On May 08 2009 16:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Voted Ra of course. Anyone old enough to remember Ra's games in his prime could only vote for Ra.

I can see the arguements for Bisu , but Ra did the same thing at a much earlier time. I mean, watch some of his game on Neo Legacy of Char. Mass sair/reaver D web for the win, you cant get any cooler than that. Hell it isnt even POSSIBLE to pull that off anymore. Double Hallcinated arb recalls? Sick. Hell, Arb use in general! Proxy gateway/cannons? Who do you think invented that shit? Cannon rushing? FAST FUCKING NEXUS VS Z? SOUND FRAMILIAR? That was all Ra. He was doing it YEARS before bisu was even on the scene.

On May 08 2009 15:34 EchOne wrote:
The lack of Reach votes makes me a sad puppy. I was under the impression that he was integral to forging PvT as we know it.

On May 08 2009 18:38 o[twist] wrote:
A few people have requested a rundown of Garimto's innovations but I don't see it here... really curious. Thanks to anybody who's contributed here - very educational thread

On May 08 2009 19:01 darkemperor wrote:
Definitely Bisu.

Did you guys forget how your mighty Savior was humiliated ?

July is the king of ZvP while Bisu is PvZ.. they both revolutionized the play against each race.

On May 08 2009 14:45 Plexa wrote:
Who originally made PvZ winnable? Nal_ra

Nal_ra's CV trumps all of these players imo. He is the Protoss parallel of Boxer, doing such crazy moves as the Recall rush vs Goodfriend on Parallel lines, 4 probe rushing some poor zerg on LT, and cannon rushing vs terran. He also dominated the shit out of Neo Guillotine, arguably creating the first highly successful FE PvZ build. As time went on, though, he moved onto developing "Splash Protoss" i.e. Sair/Reaver from island only play to standard maps. It became considered the perfect PvZ strategy, and usually opened with a fast expand. Sair/Reaver became a difficult weapon to stop (see Ra vs July on Raid Assault) and it was probably the first big macro revolution in PvZ as well (considering the success of the is semi-dependent on a fast 3rd). But Nal_ra's contribution to PvZ dont end there, Nal_ra also pioneered the use of Reavers in the lategame in PvZ (see the holywars between Nal_ra and savior, check my blog for more details).

His work in PvT is lesser than his PvZ contribution, but nevertheless it is evident. He was one of the first protoss to explore the use of arbiters in PvT (basically unheard of before 2005) which was later developed by Pusan/Anytime/Stork. And then in 2005 he became the first Protoss to successfully execute the 12Nexus on a land map (R-Point) and win. 12Nex quickly became a part of the standard PvT arsenal on big maps (still regularly used today, thx ra!). He is an icon for the Protoss race and is the epitome of everything great about Protoss.

Stork's contributions are quite subtle, and indeed is probably the least influential. In his 2005 days he was one of the best users of Sair/Reaver (see Stork vs Gorush, Stork vs Savior) and assisted in developing the Arbiter (see Nada's tour of Aiur courtesy of Stork) but it wasn't until 2007 when he made significant contributions. His only contribution, really, is the standardization of Modern PvT (ie use of Reavers religiously as an opening after a fast expo). Which isn't quite that impressive.

Bisu's contributions lie in his PvZ ability which lead Protoss onto a great era. His PvT contributions are near zero, although he did assist in developing modern PvT. His use of Corsairs and DT in PvZ is his contribution really.

Reach has done a lot for Protoss over the years. He is the father of Modern Macro Protoss and was the only protoss who could push oov to his limit. In PvZ i'm not quite sure what he did.. My memory gets a little fuzzy before 2005 xD

On May 08 2009 19:53 StalkerSC wrote:
Bisu...He pioneered his own build

On May 08 2009 20:05 konadora wrote:
Bisu fanboys are so going to overrun this poll.

On May 08 2009 20:11 iLoveKTF wrote:
Bisu winning this poll is so sad...

On May 08 2009 19:53 StalkerSC wrote:
Bisu...He pioneered his own build

On May 08 2009 19:57 Aylear wrote:





Okay, can we just reorganize the Teamliquid.net front page to only have pictures that explain why Bisu didn't invent anything?

I love the guy and he's a fantastic player, but hooolllyyy shhiiit, this "Bisu Build" stuff has got to end.

On May 08 2009 21:39 Smorrie wrote:
I don't think this poll is that interesting, since we 'all' know that Nal_rA has had the biggest impact on Protoss. It would be really nice to have a poll like this on Zerg though! (obviously a Terran one would just be boring)

On May 08 2009 21:44 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I cannot believe so few people are voting for GARIMTO. It is he who preety much set the foundations of Protoss gameplay. While most of the listed were influential in their own way as well, GARIMTO can preety much be considered the grandfather of all Protoss.

Even as a great Bisu fan, I agree that it was Nal_rA who pioneered the FE build and that it was DaezanG who created the Sair/DT strategy. Having said that, however, that really does not change the fact that neither of those became commonplace until a then unknown progamer perfected the concepts and used them to take down the great sAviOr. So I think all three of them deserve credit for that achievement.

I do not know. Maybe we can call it the NDB build instead?

On May 08 2009 22:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Stork shouldn't even be in the list.

On May 08 2009 22:52 AzureEye wrote:
While I agree that Ra came up with more obvious specific changes, Bisu has had made devastating impact for giving hope to Protoss players when many P players lost hope in their race and dominating the scene. Not to mention he's the only Protoss Bonjwa. Reach shows Protoss can be played with Macro, Nal_Ra with strategy and brilliant game play, and Bisu shows that Protoss can be played with all this AND good mechanics that is supported by brutal APM not shown in many P players.This is why I voted Bisu

On May 08 2009 22:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Overall GARIMTO and Nal_rA had way more creativity, but their creativity was unique and could not always be copied directly by others. Thus for the race as a whole they had less impact. Bisu changed the game with a single strategy. The obviousness and simpleness of what Bisu did is why imo he had made more of an impact. Undeserving because I admire the other two more for what they were able to come up with.

All over ICCUP people are now doing what is credited to be Bisus legacy. Noone is doing the stuff Nal_rA and GARIMTO did. Often because the masses do not understand their moves to this day.

Stork shouldn't even be in the list.

On May 08 2009 23:10 GinNtoniC wrote:
Nal_rA
I mean are you kidding me!? Bisu? Revolutionist fine, but he's NOTHING to the dreamer.
I might come off a a troll saying this, but this poll is so obviously decided by the newcomers to the scene who haven't even seen half the people on that list play.

On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote:

Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world.

On May 08 2009 23:21 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Aaaaaaactually...

To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off.

Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu.

Edit - I think a lot of veterans in this thread are taking the question to mean which Protoss was the most creative - that one would be a no brainer.

On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world.

On May 08 2009 23:21 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Aaaaaaactually...

To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off.

Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu.

On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote:

Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world.

In terms of contribution, Nal_rA did really contribute a lot. Bisu was the hero that destroyed everyone, not to mention that he was winning during the Legend of Fall period. Actually, to be a Bonjwa, you need to walk the path of the Bonjwa, which is to win 3 msls then the OSL. So far, there are 4 Bonjwa's: Boxer, NaDa, Oov, and Savior. Boxer didn't walk the path of the bonjwa, but getting into 2 straight OSL finals is something, plus, he held the KePSA #1 rank for more than a year. So, strictly speaking, Bisu isn't really a Bonjwa but he had the dominance that every Bonjwa had.

On May 08 2009 23:37 Tom Phoenix wrote:


"Bonjwa" is merely a slang term for a player that was dominant for any lengthy period of time. There is no standard formula by which players are given the title. The fact that Boxer never achieved the perceived requirements and is still considered Bonjwa preety much confirms the fact that the entire "3 MSL+1 OSL" formula is a fabrication.

Anyway, it is true that Bisu revolutionised the PvZ matchup (although Daezang and Nal_rA did develop the basic concepts). However, is being influential in one matchup really enough for one to be considered the most influential in the entire race? In my opinion, no.

On May 08 2009 22:56 SilverSkyLark wrote:

QFT

On May 08 2009 15:34 EchOne wrote:
The lack of Reach votes makes me a sad puppy. I was under the impression that he was integral to forging PvT as we know it.

On May 08 2009 23:37 Tom Phoenix wrote:
EDIT: Aylear, you should watch the replay GARIMTO vs. ChoJJa on MBCGame Lost Temple, StarCraft version 1.10. I think you will find that Garimto uses a very....familiar strategy.

On May 09 2009 00:23 JWD wrote:
I voted Bisu. I appreciate GARIMTO's foundational work in Protoss strategy and all of Nal_rA's contributions, but I feel the single most important moment in the history of Protoss was Bisu 3 > 0 sAviOr in the MSL Finals. This series ended the reign of the last bonjwa, upset the age-old Z>P balance, and obviously threw Bisu's PvZ style into the limelight and altered how Protoss players everywhere handled Zerg opponents.

I disagree that Bisu's contribution to PvZ play is somehow diminished by the fact that DZ showed an early version of his build before the fateful MSL Finals series. Being influential in SC is not only about coming up with paradigm-shifting strategies, but also significantly about bringing those strategies "to the masses" with great execution in high-pressure, high-profile situations. Just as SK Terran is named after Soulkey but is (rightfully) associated with NaDa, the Bisu build may have been pioneered by Daezang but owes its popularity and historical significance to Bisu's dramatic use of it to topple Savior in GOM S1.

On May 09 2009 01:07 Aylear wrote:
Hell, in 1.08 - in 2001 - rA made a brilliant PvZ FE build, and he used Sairs liberally.

On May 09 2009 01:22 Mindcrime wrote:


How do you know that? Unlike with Nada, who was a ladder rapist, I don't recall hearing anything about rA until after he turned pro.

On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote:

Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world.

In terms of contribution, Nal_rA did really contribute a lot. Bisu was the hero that destroyed everyone, not to mention that he was winning during the Legend of Fall period. Actually, to be a Bonjwa, you need to walk the path of the Bonjwa, which is to win 3 msls then the OSL. So far, there are 4 Bonjwa's: Boxer, NaDa, Oov, and Savior. Boxer didn't walk the path of the bonjwa, but getting into 2 straight OSL finals is something, plus, he held the KePSA #1 rank for more than a year. So, strictly speaking, Bisu isn't really a Bonjwa but he had the dominance that every Bonjwa had.

On May 08 2009 17:01 AttackZerg wrote:
Definately Nal_ra.

Who didn't love watching his weird strats that worked perfectly.

I wish protoss liked like nal_ra now. He was so clever/cheesy!

On May 08 2009 15:07 GTR wrote:
Bisu, and a to a smaller extent Jangbi, turned Protoss into a powerful harassment-style race.
Stork and Pusan popularized the use of Arbiters.

On May 08 2009 15:17 OneOther wrote:
close call between nal_ra and bisu for me. voted bisu though. he changed the way protoss was played with his shuttle play in all matchups. as well as many other things. i feel like the word "influential" could be interpreted in various ways but in my book bisu has been the most influential.

On May 08 2009 22:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Overall GARIMTO and Nal_rA had way more creativity, but their creativity was unique and could not always be copied directly by others. Thus for the race as a whole they had less impact. Bisu changed the game with a single strategy. The obviousness and simpleness of what Bisu did is why imo he had made more of an impact. Undeserving because I admire the other two more for what they were able to come up with.

All over ICCUP people are now doing what is credited to be Bisus legacy. Noone is doing the stuff Nal_rA and GARIMTO did. Often because the masses do not understand their moves to this day.

Stork shouldn't even be in the list.

On May 08 2009 23:21 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Aaaaaaactually...

To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off.

Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu.

Edit - I think a lot of veterans in this thread are taking the question to mean which Protoss was the most creative - that one would be a no brainer.

On May 08 2009 23:41 Hot_Bid wrote:

Voted Bisu, don't agree that it's Ra.

On May 08 2009 16:55 Perguvious wrote:
I really think backho deserves to be on this list. Think of all the great things he's done, like zizi yOing, suiciding zealots into mutalisks, suciding by attacking a zerg with no obs, and just suiciding his units in general.

He's made everyone in the protoss race look great.

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 09 2009 03:51 KnightOfNi wrote:
Nal_ra was the first to use corsair-dt (if I recall correctly), and although it was without an expo it is still worth noting that he used that first.

I think that he was also the first to use forge-FE against zergs, and although he didn't do it EVERY GAME, he was the first to actually use that strat in general.

On May 08 2009 13:56 Plexa wrote:
Anytime is probably the least likely to win this poll, but imo he's done a lot more for the game than Bisu, which sounds weird. Anytime (along with Pusan) formulated the standard protoss response to the fd rush (which was incredibly powerful back in the day) in addition to creating standard macro protoss (along with Pusan, again). Then in 2006 he basically set Bisu up for his revolution by pioneering the heavy use of Corsairs against Zerg (see anytime vs Gorush/GGPlay on Tau cross form shinhan 2) indeed his Corsair/Zealot strategy was pretty cool. In addition to that he was a part of the set of Protoss who standardized the FE.

On May 09 2009 04:40 Mindcrime wrote:


dt/sair is as old as bw

On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote:
He came up with the predecessor of pretty much every modern Protoss build: viable fast-expansion PvZ, viable arbiter rushes PvT, you name it, he did it first.

On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote:
Reach is important for two reasons. First, as has been previously mentioned, his "mullyang Protoss" macro style changed the way Protoss macro was done. Arguably, basic mechanical macro revolutions are more game-changing than strategic ones; we can go so far as to call Reach the Protoss iloveoov. Secondly, he single-handedly kept Protoss viable for several seasons, at times being the lone Protoss representative in StarLeagues.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/25_IOPS_OSL

On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote:
For me, Bisu does not even deserve consideration. He modified a build that Daezang modified off of rA's FE. Sure, it was a sweeping change to one matchup, but that's his only significant contribution to the StarCraft metagame. Bisu is a great player, but I find 'revolutionist' to be a misnomer.

On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote:
For me, Bisu does not even deserve consideration. He modified a build that Daezang modified off of rA's FE. Sure, it was a sweeping change to one matchup, but that's his only significant contribution to the StarCraft metagame. Bisu is a great player, but I find 'revolutionist' to be a misnomer.

rA and Reach are the only contenders here.

Build-wise and strategy-wise, rA wins hands down. He came up with the predecessor of pretty much every modern Protoss build: viable fast-expansion PvZ, viable arbiter rushes PvT, you name it, he did it first. On top of that, he came up with new cheese on every other new map as soon as it was introduced. The man is a strategic prodigy.

Reach is important for two reasons. First, as has been previously mentioned, his "mullyang Protoss" macro style changed the way Protoss macro was done. Arguably, basic mechanical macro revolutions are more game-changing than strategic ones; we can go so far as to call Reach the Protoss iloveoov. Secondly, he single-handedly kept Protoss viable for several seasons, at times being the lone Protoss representative in StarLeagues.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/25_IOPS_OSL

(I voted Nal_rA.)

On May 08 2009 21:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Voted Reach, just barely over Nal_ra. Some of the comparisons are really apt, like Reach being the Oov for protoss and Ra being the Boxer (which is funny considering when they were both around), but I consider Oov more, overall, influential to how the game is currently played, and if Reach is his equivalent for protoss, then he barely edges out Ra.

edit; blegh my ktf sign is probably gonna make this look more biased than I wanted it to.

For the record, Ra is *definitely* over Bisu(or should be). Bisu build being over what Ra and Reach did is like saying the Flash timing build is over Oov and Boxer, and that's just inane.

On May 09 2009 01:16 jgad wrote:
If Protoss was physics, Nal_Ra would be Einstein, who opened the eyes of the world. Garimto would be Boltzmann, who gave us solid and fresh fundamentals, Bisu Schrödinger, whose probes can be in two places at once, Reach Tesla, who flexed the forces of nature into radical and powerful spectacles, and Stork Oppenheimer, who didn't really revolutionise anything, but who used what was at hand to build a bigger bomb than anyone had seen before.

On May 08 2009 21:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Voted Reach, just barely over Nal_ra. Some of the comparisons are really apt, like Reach being the Oov for protoss and Ra being the Boxer (which is funny considering when they were both around), but I consider Oov more, overall, influential to how the game is currently played, and if Reach is his equivalent for protoss, then he barely edges out Ra.

edit; blegh my ktf sign is probably gonna make this look more biased than I wanted it to.

For the record, Ra is *definitely* over Bisu(or should be). Bisu build being over what Ra and Reach did is like saying the Flash timing build is over Oov and Boxer, and that's just inane.

On May 09 2009 10:44 BeaTeR wrote:
i'm big fan of bisu, but wtf?
Nal_rA should win the poll without any questions...

On May 09 2009 01:16 jgad wrote:
If Protoss was physics, Nal_Ra would be Einstein, who opened the eyes of the world. Garimto would be Boltzmann, who gave us solid and fresh fundamentals, Bisu Schrödinger, whose probes can be in two places at once, Reach Tesla, who flexed the forces of nature into radical and powerful spectacles, and Stork Oppenheimer, who didn't really revolutionise anything, but who used what was at hand to build a bigger bomb than anyone had seen before.

On May 09 2009 01:16 jgad wrote:
If Protoss was physics, Nal_Ra would be Einstein, who opened the eyes of the world. Garimto would be Boltzmann, who gave us solid and fresh fundamentals, Bisu Schrödinger, whose probes can be in two places at once, Reach Tesla, who flexed the forces of nature into radical and powerful spectacles, and Stork Oppenheimer, who didn't really revolutionise anything, but who used what was at hand to build a bigger bomb than anyone had seen before.

On May 09 2009 11:06 SilverSkyLark wrote:

You missed Newton, that guy basically created Physics and Calculus, he did more than Einstein.

If Protoss was Mathematics, Nal_rA would be Euler.

On May 09 2009 13:15 inertinept wrote:
so basically everyone that knows even one shit about starcraft voted nal_ra, and then all the clueless newbies voted bisu

On May 09 2009 11:06 SilverSkyLark wrote:

You missed Newton, that guy basically created Physics and Calculus, he did more than Einstein.

If Protoss was Mathematics, Nal_rA would be Euler.

On May 08 2009 23:25 GinNtoniC wrote:
I'd give you credit for the most influental player on modern pvz. that's it.
For the most influental player on the Protoss race as a whole throughout SC history, I have to stick with rA.

On May 08 2009 23:32 SilverSkyLark wrote:
I have a question then (I hope I won't be seen as a troll or something).
When Ra was using the FE, and everyone was 2 gating, did that downplay nal_rA's contribution for the Protoss race? Was the fact that he was just plain better (since the others didn't quite see the potential in FE) that the other Protoss players during his prime, pull him down?

What if during nal_rA's prime, people started copying his Forge FE, does that make him better then? Because what I understand from the second paragraph is that Bisu got your vote because he managed to create something that was versatile, and therefore, influenced the modern PvZ

Uhm you can opt not to answer this because GinNtonic included the "modern PvZ" part in the thing.

On May 09 2009 10:48 ragnasaur wrote:
seems like everyone who knows wut they are talking about votes nal_ra over bisu

On May 09 2009 13:33 Kuja900 wrote:


This, its just the mindless fanboys who have only been around for a year maybe are diluting the proper results.

On May 09 2009 10:48 ragnasaur wrote:
seems like everyone who knows wut they are talking about votes nal_ra over bisu

On May 08 2009 13:45 Plexa wrote:
I predict Bisu is going to win this poll, but Nal_ra really should imo

On May 09 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:
MODS

Is there anyway you can sort Join date / voted for?

I still remember watching nal_ra play and thinking "Oh my god that has never been done before".
I think bisu and stork have pushed protoss play beyond its farthest dreams but I believe that once nal_ra entered the scene protoss play changed dramatically (On battle.net and the pro scene)

On May 08 2009 13:45 Plexa wrote:
I predict Bisu is going to win this poll, but Nal_ra really should imo

On May 09 2009 11:50 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:

einstein arguably did just as much, for one, he found one of the extremes at which newtonian physics breaks down. his work on GR with tensor fields / differential geometry was basically the biggest application of that new math too.

On May 09 2009 01:16 jgad wrote:
If Protoss was physics, Nal_Ra would be Einstein, who opened the eyes of the world. Garimto would be Boltzmann, who gave us solid and fresh fundamentals, Bisu Schrödinger, whose probes can be in two places at once, Reach Tesla, who flexed the forces of nature into radical and powerful spectacles, and Stork Oppenheimer, who didn't really revolutionise anything, but who used what was at hand to build a bigger bomb than anyone had seen before.

On May 09 2009 20:18 Plexa wrote:
Also Bisu is probably Niels Bohr

On May 09 2009 13:34 EvilTeletubby wrote:




To answer both of you in the same breath...

Ra's FE builds were not the same as Bisu's by any stretch. If they were, every Protoss would have started using them. Ra was creative in that he was thinking outside the box and trying to create builds which were unique, but to be honest, he just didn't have the success rate with it that would encourage other Protoss users to use the same builds. Yes, Ra would FE, but he would lose a good portion of the time with it too. There wasn't the same follow-up or flexibility as the modern day Bisu build. So it's not really an issue of "Ra did it first, Bisu popularized it" -> Ra never did the same build. Obviously if he did, we wouldn't be debating this.

To the point of modern PvZ vs traditional (2+ years ago) PvZ, yes, modern Protoss is dominated by Bisu's actions. But traditional PvZ has not nearly the same amount of influence from Ra. Yes, again, Ra was creative/ahead of his time, but he did not influence his race as a whole like Bisu did. You wouldn't suddenly see every Protoss copying something Ra did. You DID see that with Bisu. That's influence.

On May 09 2009 22:47 danieldrsa wrote:


Im in love with your posts :D

I think the point is: there is so much people saying "this is bisu build", when it is not really one, that it created somekind of "hate" for it use. Bisu build is so much "godfied" that its attacked just for that

Daezang is the creator of Bisu Build as much as Anytime/Grr/Reach are the creators of Nal_Ra strats.

On May 09 2009 13:34 EvilTeletubby wrote:




To answer both of you in the same breath...

Ra's FE builds were not the same as Bisu's by any stretch. If they were, every Protoss would have started using them. Ra was creative in that he was thinking outside the box and trying to create builds which were unique, but to be honest, he just didn't have the success rate with it that would encourage other Protoss users to use the same builds. Yes, Ra would FE, but he would lose a good portion of the time with it too. There wasn't the same follow-up or flexibility as the modern day Bisu build. So it's not really an issue of "Ra did it first, Bisu popularized it" -> Ra never did the same build. Obviously if he did, we wouldn't be debating this.

To the point of modern PvZ vs traditional (2+ years ago) PvZ, yes, modern Protoss is dominated by Bisu's actions. But traditional PvZ has not nearly the same amount of influence from Ra. Yes, again, Ra was creative/ahead of his time, but he did not influence his race as a whole like Bisu did. You wouldn't suddenly see every Protoss copying something Ra did. You DID see that with Bisu. That's influence.

On May 10 2009 03:24 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:


I'm pretty sure Nal_rA debuted years before Anytime.