On May 09 2009 03:51 KnightOfNi wrote: Nal_ra was the first to use corsair-dt (if I recall correctly), and although it was without an expo it is still worth noting that he used that first.
dt/sair is as old as bw
It is, but it tended to be done much differently from how it is now. Often it was just a defensive play to prevent or stall the zerg from taking his third.
Bisu's specific build attacked a fairly small timing window (particularly with regards to the then standard 3hatch muta) that the earlier builds never attempted to exploit.
In my eyes its like mech existed tvz before the fantasy build, but the mech build employed by fantasy was different than standard mech before in regards to vulture/dropship/valkyrie abuse, expansion timing etc.
If you look at the games in the months before the savior bisu finals, and look at the games from the months immediately following that match, you will see a HUGE difference in the protoss approach. Not just by some protoss, by every protoss.
We see all these metagame shifts all the time. A build is developed by one race in a matchup that dominates their opponent. The opponent gets rolled for a while until they develop a build that counters the new build etc. Often, these metagame specific builds have a fairly narrow use. And those that don't (FD Terran, Double armory TvP etc) often rely on using old units in a specific new way to counter what at the time was a dominant build.
Bisu is one of the big ones where not only are units being used in a new way with a new purpose and timing, but he took a unit that really was under-utiliized and made it the face of pvz.
First off, stop calling it the Bisu build. If you must attribute a name to it, call it the DaezanG build. Bisu is like NaDa developing and popularizing SoulKey's "SK Terran", but at least SoulKey got to keep the fucking credit.
Second, Nal_rA was advocating Forge FE for years. Once again, I'm not denying Bisu's exceptional impact on Protoss, and he certainly showed us how to do it right, but he didn't invent anything. If you're going to vote Bisu, then argue for his exceptional skill, game sense, and impact on the race, not his innovation.
Man... I remember when we had Protosses like Pillars/Zileas/XD's~Grrrr... and then out came IntotheRain and peoples jaws dropped, after Into and GARIMTO showed up I remember quitting for a bit and coming back to see Nal_Ra in some replays. I had no words to describe his PvZ. He was simply in 10 different places at once it seemed and truly amazed me. I think I remember GARIMTO the most for some game he played on LT when he used a Dark Archon to MC an overlord to detect some lurkers. I thought it was pure genius and it still is today.
Never really caught much of Anytime/Pusan, I was more of a Zerg fanboy anyways. I loved watching )iS(City and Side's massive muta battles. [NC]Yellow was always my fav, along with 1st~Tsunami and z zone byun / ogogo for some interesting micro games. Terran was all about Boxer / TheMarine / NTT for me in the early days. Never caught much of Maynards games, although his scv transfer to this day is one of the biggest innovations in the early days.
Voted for Nal_Ra. He and IntotheRain were my favorite Protoss players to watch.
I hesitated a lot between Reach and Nal_rA. I voted Reach because he interrupted the crazy Oov's reign on TvP. But Nal_rA deserve it too. Bisu is a too "recent" player to have a big impact on the race.
I voted nal_rA but maybe I should have voted Bisu >.<
"If you look at the games in the months before the savior bisu finals, and look at the games from the months immediately following that match, you will see a HUGE difference in the protoss approach. Not just by some protoss, by every protoss."
This is an extremely compelling point, even if it was only one matchup.
All you people jerking off over how you've followed the scene for longer and all the newbies need to get a clue might want to think about this question a bit harder, because as some people of said, Nal_rA was doing all those things while all other P's kept 2gating. That's NOT influence, it's innovation. There are arguments either way to exactly what "impact on the Protoss race" means.
This poll has one glaring flaw: It's either worded badly, or it's missing players.
Assuming it's been phrased badly, What it should say, is "Who made greater contributions to the Protoss race?"
And if that was the question, then you may have your rA and Bisu arguments all day long.
However, the poll specifically mentions who had a greater impact on the Protoss race. It also doesn't limit this person to positive or negative impact, or even to a Protoss player. Players of all three races are technically eligible for this poll.
So obviously, someone had to nominate sAviOr. Hear me out.
When Bisu crushed Savior 3-0, that was a moment of tremendous impact for the Protoss race. It would not, however, have had anywhere near the impact, had Bisu beaten any other player on the face of the planet. Perhaps we might have looked at the build as something useful, but nothing like the overnight sensation it became. The fact that we see this event as something so meaningful is because this was the incredible defeat of the greatest pain-in-the-ass Protoss had experienced to date.
Savior, for a time, ripped the soul from Protoss. Defeating Nal_rA, and proceeding to make the rest of the Protoss race his bitch, who could argue that Savior had anything but a devastating impact on the Protoss race?
Then enter some no-namer, who handily beats the best player in the world at his best matchup. Savior was at both ends of the Protoss dark age, he started it, and his defeat finished it.
In terms of actual contributions to the Protoss race, sAviOr did squat. However, in terms of impact, then he earns the right to be on this poll.
A comment on the Nal_rA > Bisu sentiment: Just because Nal_Ra brought the play onto the Starleagues doesn't mean that he has been the most influential. Yes the Sair DT and Reaver Sair far predate Bisu, but sair DT was blizzard's original intent as seen in their 1998 guidebooks, and forge cannon expand/NexusFirst into cannons is so old that it's programmed into the AI of Protoss computers; it's not about who makes the builds, it's about who brings them to prominence.
In the rA era, yes he did do fast expansion on occasion, and yes he did bring about the viability of corsair reaver, but its not who makes the builds, it's about who influences others with them. Otherwise Shark would be the father of Zerg.
So why not call it the Bisu build (as others in this thread vehemently oppose), when he's the one who made it such the option that it is today? Even in any activity outside of Starcraft, names are given not based on who invented the rudimentary concept first, but who refined it and popularized it. Otherwise, we'd have a bunch of funny stuff going on. (Oh he's doing the someCLevelGamerOnIccup offensive! That's the Shark (or maybe even some other random internet user) mutalisk stacking right there! Ah he's going the ProtossComputerAIFastExpand build! Ohhh excellent, blizzard-original-Chris-Metzen-CorsairDT harass style!)
In an era where sAviOr ruled the world and people were beginning to think that Starcraft was unfairly biased for Zerg in the ZvP matchup, rA made corsair reaver a viable option to keep Protoss on par with Zerg. Bisu used the same build to completely reverse the balance of PvZ for a period of time, and importantly showed people how to severely punish sAviOr's incredibly greedy build, something that began to seem incredibly imbalanced for in zerg strategy (even in the recent matches where sAviOr beats Bisu, its easily discernible that sAviOr no longer does his lightning-fast-fourth style). Obviously corsair reaver and FE protoss was far from being rA's only contribution, but not much else in his style is used in modern PvZ; at the time, rA had the much larger impact, but in modern PvZ, his style doesn't leave as lasting of a legacy, similar to the way of the ol' BoxeR tank-dropship micro v P.
In my opinion, Bisu would be the more influential one here in the development of modern Starcraft, if only in this one matchup, because although rA kept the matchup statistics from completely slipping over the edge into imbalance, it was Bisu who brought it back around the 50/50 mark. A good testament to Bisu's legacy is that he did his builds so well that few gamers nowadays dare to do the old one-gate-tech or two-gate-pressure style, and the mapmakers have designed the newer maps with this development in mind.
That being said, I actually think that it's Reach: in an era where OoV was dominating the field, reach showed us how to defeat OoV's expansionary style with a completely new way of looking at protoss macro. Plus he made protoss awesome, which is what really should be the meter stick in terms of impact on the game.
For me, Bisu does not even deserve consideration. He modified a build that Daezang modified off of rA's FE. Sure, it was a sweeping change to one matchup, but that's his only significant contribution to the StarCraft metagame. Bisu is a great player, but I find 'revolutionist' to be a misnomer.
rA and Reach are the only contenders here.
Build-wise and strategy-wise, rA wins hands down. He came up with the predecessor of pretty much every modern Protoss build: viable fast-expansion PvZ, viable arbiter rushes PvT, you name it, he did it first. On top of that, he came up with new cheese on every other new map as soon as it was introduced. The man is a strategic prodigy.
Reach is important for two reasons. First, as has been previously mentioned, his "mullyang Protoss" macro style changed the way Protoss macro was done. Arguably, basic mechanical macro revolutions are more game-changing than strategic ones; we can go so far as to call Reach the Protoss iloveoov. Secondly, he single-handedly kept Protoss viable for several seasons, at times being the lone Protoss representative in StarLeagues.
On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote: He came up with the predecessor of pretty much every modern Protoss build: viable fast-expansion PvZ, viable arbiter rushes PvT, you name it, he did it first.
Grrrr... thought his fe was viable enough to win him an OSL.
Oh, and GARIMTO thought his quick arbiters were viable, but then again maybe they weren't
rA certainly did innovate, but he, like Bisu, stood on the shoulders of giants and in many cases simply improved on what came before.
On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote: Reach is important for two reasons. First, as has been previously mentioned, his "mullyang Protoss" macro style changed the way Protoss macro was done. Arguably, basic mechanical macro revolutions are more game-changing than strategic ones; we can go so far as to call Reach the Protoss iloveoov. Secondly, he single-handedly kept Protoss viable for several seasons, at times being the lone Protoss representative in StarLeagues.
Good GOD that was a terrifying line-up. What a sick page.
On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote: For me, Bisu does not even deserve consideration. He modified a build that Daezang modified off of rA's FE. Sure, it was a sweeping change to one matchup, but that's his only significant contribution to the StarCraft metagame. Bisu is a great player, but I find 'revolutionist' to be a misnomer.
I think that's an excellent summary. From what I can tell the argument boils down to whether or not Bisu deserves credit for changing certain Protoss aspects when he didn't actually invent any of the things he did. Thing is, I think even if Bisu was the innovator behind the build order which took down Savior, it still wouldn't outweigh everything rA did, or Reach for that matter.
I just have trouble voting for Bisu when everything he does smells of Nal_rA, you know?
On May 09 2009 08:50 Last Romantic wrote: For me, Bisu does not even deserve consideration. He modified a build that Daezang modified off of rA's FE. Sure, it was a sweeping change to one matchup, but that's his only significant contribution to the StarCraft metagame. Bisu is a great player, but I find 'revolutionist' to be a misnomer.
rA and Reach are the only contenders here.
Build-wise and strategy-wise, rA wins hands down. He came up with the predecessor of pretty much every modern Protoss build: viable fast-expansion PvZ, viable arbiter rushes PvT, you name it, he did it first. On top of that, he came up with new cheese on every other new map as soon as it was introduced. The man is a strategic prodigy.
Reach is important for two reasons. First, as has been previously mentioned, his "mullyang Protoss" macro style changed the way Protoss macro was done. Arguably, basic mechanical macro revolutions are more game-changing than strategic ones; we can go so far as to call Reach the Protoss iloveoov. Secondly, he single-handedly kept Protoss viable for several seasons, at times being the lone Protoss representative in StarLeagues.
EPT
