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Protoss doesn't even use corsair/DT nowadays... except Bisu himself. They use FE timing attacks like the zeal/arch attack which is basically a development of the FE speed zealot attack that...... Nal_ra popularized. I guess Bisu's contribution is that the stargate is default for scouting. Oh and they use reaver/sair openings a lot, which again... Nal_ra popularized.
Ra wins.
Plus, this is all PvZ. Ra contributed to PvT, Bisu basically didn't.
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On May 09 2009 22:47 danieldrsa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 13:34 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 08 2009 23:25 GinNtoniC wrote:
I'd give you credit for the most influental player on modern pvz. that's it.
For the most influental player on the Protoss race as a whole throughout SC history, I have to stick with rA. On May 08 2009 23:32 SilverSkyLark wrote:
I have a question then (I hope I won't be seen as a troll or something).
When Ra was using the FE, and everyone was 2 gating, did that downplay nal_rA's contribution for the Protoss race? Was the fact that he was just plain better (since the others didn't quite see the potential in FE) that the other Protoss players during his prime, pull him down?
What if during nal_rA's prime, people started copying his Forge FE, does that make him better then? Because what I understand from the second paragraph is that Bisu got your vote because he managed to create something that was versatile, and therefore, influenced the modern PvZ
Uhm you can opt not to answer this because GinNtonic included the "modern PvZ" part in the thing. To answer both of you in the same breath... Ra's FE builds were not the same as Bisu's by any stretch. If they were, every Protoss would have started using them. Ra was creative in that he was thinking outside the box and trying to create builds which were unique, but to be honest, he just didn't have the success rate with it that would encourage other Protoss users to use the same builds. Yes, Ra would FE, but he would lose a good portion of the time with it too. There wasn't the same follow-up or flexibility as the modern day Bisu build. So it's not really an issue of "Ra did it first, Bisu popularized it" -> Ra never did the same build. Obviously if he did, we wouldn't be debating this. To the point of modern PvZ vs traditional (2+ years ago) PvZ, yes, modern Protoss is dominated by Bisu's actions. But traditional PvZ has not nearly the same amount of influence from Ra. Yes, again, Ra was creative/ahead of his time, but he did not influence his race as a whole like Bisu did. You wouldn't suddenly see every Protoss copying something Ra did. You DID see that with Bisu. That's influence. Im in love with your posts :D I think the point is: there is so much people saying "this is bisu build", when it is not really one, that it created somekind of "hate" for it use. Bisu build is so much "godfied" that its attacked just for that Daezang is the creator of Bisu Build as much as Anytime/Grr/Reach are the creators of Nal_Ra strats.
I'm pretty sure Nal_rA debuted years before Anytime.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On May 09 2009 13:34 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 23:25 GinNtoniC wrote:
I'd give you credit for the most influental player on modern pvz. that's it.
For the most influental player on the Protoss race as a whole throughout SC history, I have to stick with rA. Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 23:32 SilverSkyLark wrote:
I have a question then (I hope I won't be seen as a troll or something).
When Ra was using the FE, and everyone was 2 gating, did that downplay nal_rA's contribution for the Protoss race? Was the fact that he was just plain better (since the others didn't quite see the potential in FE) that the other Protoss players during his prime, pull him down?
What if during nal_rA's prime, people started copying his Forge FE, does that make him better then? Because what I understand from the second paragraph is that Bisu got your vote because he managed to create something that was versatile, and therefore, influenced the modern PvZ
Uhm you can opt not to answer this because GinNtonic included the "modern PvZ" part in the thing. To answer both of you in the same breath... Ra's FE builds were not the same as Bisu's by any stretch. If they were, every Protoss would have started using them. Ra was creative in that he was thinking outside the box and trying to create builds which were unique, but to be honest, he just didn't have the success rate with it that would encourage other Protoss users to use the same builds. Yes, Ra would FE, but he would lose a good portion of the time with it too. There wasn't the same follow-up or flexibility as the modern day Bisu build. So it's not really an issue of "Ra did it first, Bisu popularized it" -> Ra never did the same build. Obviously if he did, we wouldn't be debating this. To the point of modern PvZ vs traditional (2+ years ago) PvZ, yes, modern Protoss is dominated by Bisu's actions. But traditional PvZ has not nearly the same amount of influence from Ra. Yes, again, Ra was creative/ahead of his time, but he did not influence his race as a whole like Bisu did. You wouldn't suddenly see every Protoss copying something Ra did. You DID see that with Bisu. That's influence.
I agree with this 100%. Just because someone does something first does not make them the most influential. The person who makes the build actually viable and influences others to copy him, thereby changing the entire paradigm of PvZ, that is the player with the most impact.
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Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
Yep. You summed up in two sentences what took me two paragraphs. T_T
I think a lot of the veterans here are just caught up in pride and nostalgia. 
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On May 10 2009 03:24 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 22:47 danieldrsa wrote:On May 09 2009 13:34 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 08 2009 23:25 GinNtoniC wrote:
I'd give you credit for the most influental player on modern pvz. that's it.
For the most influental player on the Protoss race as a whole throughout SC history, I have to stick with rA. On May 08 2009 23:32 SilverSkyLark wrote:
I have a question then (I hope I won't be seen as a troll or something).
When Ra was using the FE, and everyone was 2 gating, did that downplay nal_rA's contribution for the Protoss race? Was the fact that he was just plain better (since the others didn't quite see the potential in FE) that the other Protoss players during his prime, pull him down?
What if during nal_rA's prime, people started copying his Forge FE, does that make him better then? Because what I understand from the second paragraph is that Bisu got your vote because he managed to create something that was versatile, and therefore, influenced the modern PvZ
Uhm you can opt not to answer this because GinNtonic included the "modern PvZ" part in the thing. To answer both of you in the same breath... Ra's FE builds were not the same as Bisu's by any stretch. If they were, every Protoss would have started using them. Ra was creative in that he was thinking outside the box and trying to create builds which were unique, but to be honest, he just didn't have the success rate with it that would encourage other Protoss users to use the same builds. Yes, Ra would FE, but he would lose a good portion of the time with it too. There wasn't the same follow-up or flexibility as the modern day Bisu build. So it's not really an issue of "Ra did it first, Bisu popularized it" -> Ra never did the same build. Obviously if he did, we wouldn't be debating this. To the point of modern PvZ vs traditional (2+ years ago) PvZ, yes, modern Protoss is dominated by Bisu's actions. But traditional PvZ has not nearly the same amount of influence from Ra. Yes, again, Ra was creative/ahead of his time, but he did not influence his race as a whole like Bisu did. You wouldn't suddenly see every Protoss copying something Ra did. You DID see that with Bisu. That's influence. Im in love with your posts :D I think the point is: there is so much people saying "this is bisu build", when it is not really one, that it created somekind of "hate" for it use. Bisu build is so much "godfied" that its attacked just for that Daezang is the creator of Bisu Build as much as Anytime/Grr/Reach are the creators of Nal_Ra strats. I'm pretty sure Nal_rA debuted years before Anytime.
Yes, you are right, retire Anytime from the sentence, put Garimto.
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EPT
