EPTWho has had a greater impact on the Protoss race? - Page 5
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Smorrie
Netherlands2944 Posts
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
 GARIMTO. It is he who preety much set the foundations of Protoss gameplay. While most of the listed were influential in their own way as well, GARIMTO can preety much be considered the grandfather of all Protoss.Even as a great Bisu fan, I agree that it was Nal_rA who pioneered the FE build and that it was DaezanG who created the Sair/DT strategy. Having said that, however, that really does not change the fact that neither of those became commonplace until a then unknown progamer perfected the concepts and used them to take down the great  sAviOr. So I think all three of them deserve credit for that achievement.I do not know. Maybe we can call it the NDB build instead? | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
definitely | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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Chaipzor
Spain82 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 08 2009 21:39 Smorrie wrote: I don't think this poll is that interesting, since we 'all' know that Nal_rA has had the biggest impact on Protoss. It would be really nice to have a poll like this on Zerg though! (obviously a Terran one would just be boring) Two good points that I've been pondering for the past 30 minutes, Smorrie. You're right; everybody who counts will know Nal_rA is the only valid pick in this poll, followed by Garimto and Reach in no particular order. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people commenting in here are in rA's favour, because unlike the slavering hordes that autovote Bisu and ruin this poll, they can actually back up their vote with facts and arguments. The reason Bisu is winning is because of the new-gen influx who haven't even taken the time to research StarCraft history. But who wants to do that when it's easier to just look at the top players right now and believe they're the apex of innovation because they're the ones doing all the winning, right? It's like someone said the magic words "Bisu Build" out of context somewhere and now everybody's too busy humping his leg to realize he's just a great player with fantastic game sense who's nevertheless standing on the shoulders of giants. I've also been pondering the Zerg innovators. Terran has Boxer, undeniably leagues above everybody else in showcasing innovation and brilliance. Protoss has rA and GARIMTO. Zerg innovators don't get nearly enough love. For instance, we all know July's reputation for insane Mutalisk micro harass before anyone else, but... who are the innovators of Zerg? Who are the people behind all the current build orders? They're never in the spotlight, which is a damn shame. What's with Zerg that makes this kind of stuff somehow less important? Or is it just harder to navigate the paths of history the Zerg race has taken to get to this point? On May 08 2009 21:44 Tom Phoenix wrote: I cannot believe so few people are voting for GARIMTO. It is he who preety much set the foundations of Protoss gameplay. While most of the listed were influential in their own way as well, GARIMTO can preety much be considered the grandfather of all Protoss.Even as a great Bisu fan, I agree that it was Nal_rA who pioneered the FE build and that it was DaezanG who created the Sair/DT strategy. Having said that, however, that really does not change the fact that neither of those became commonplace until a then unknown progamer perfected the concepts and used them to take down the great sAviOr. So I think all three of them deserve credit for that achievement.I do not know. Maybe we can call it the NDB build instead? GARIMTO discovered some building blocks and created some interesting things, but the sheer magnitude of contributions rA has provided, I think, makes rA an overall better pick. Once again, I have like 230 replays of GARIMTO and I remember how much I loved watching him play, but I'll be damned if I remember him for much besides his amazing Zealot micro. I might be willing to elevate GARIMTO up to near rA's level in Protoss innovation, but only if I can get some facts that validate this. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
All over ICCUP people are now doing what is credited to be Bisus legacy. Noone is doing the stuff Nal_rA and GARIMTO did. Often because the masses do not understand their moves to this day. Stork shouldn't even be in the list. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On May 08 2009 22:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Stork shouldn't even be in the list. QFT | ||
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Shuray
Brazil642 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On May 08 2009 22:52 AzureEye wrote: While I agree that Ra came up with more obvious specific changes, Bisu has had made devastating impact for giving hope to Protoss players when many P players lost hope in their race and dominating the scene. Not to mention he's the only Protoss Bonjwa. Reach shows Protoss can be played with Macro, Nal_Ra with strategy and brilliant game play, and Bisu shows that Protoss can be played with all this AND good mechanics that is supported by brutal APM not shown in many P players.This is why I voted Bisu Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world. In terms of contribution, Nal_rA did really contribute a lot. Bisu was the hero that destroyed everyone, not to mention that he was winning during the Legend of Fall period. Actually, to be a Bonjwa, you need to walk the path of the Bonjwa, which is to win 3 msls then the OSL. So far, there are 4 Bonjwa's: Boxer, NaDa, Oov, and Savior. Boxer didn't walk the path of the bonjwa, but getting into 2 straight OSL finals is something, plus, he held the KePSA #1 rank for more than a year. So, strictly speaking, Bisu isn't really a Bonjwa but he had the dominance that every Bonjwa had. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 08 2009 22:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Overall GARIMTO and Nal_rA had way more creativity, but their creativity was unique and could not always be copied directly by others. Thus for the race as a whole they had less impact. Bisu changed the game with a single strategy. The obviousness and simpleness of what Bisu did is why imo he had made more of an impact. Undeserving because I admire the other two more for what they were able to come up with. All over ICCUP people are now doing what is credited to be Bisus legacy. Noone is doing the stuff Nal_rA and GARIMTO did. Often because the masses do not understand their moves to this day. Stork shouldn't even be in the list. Excellent reasoning, at least. But what Bisu did was done by others before him. Bisu only employed it with such flair and indomitable success as to put his mark on the pro-gaming scene forever. I still disagree with choosing Bisu over rA or Garimto, and the reason is that if Bisu's "builds" can be traced back to these other players, shouldn't they be accredited with impacting the Protoss scene by directly allowing Bisu to do what he did? Thomas Edison popularized the light bulb, but he did so by taking Joseph Swan's and Sir Humphry Davy's designs. Thus, as you say, we mundanes might not always have grasped every minute aspect of the brilliance of rA's, GARIMTO's, and (in the case of the wrongly named "Bisu Build") DaezanG's plays... but Bisu sure did. That's why he used them. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
I mean are you kidding me!? Bisu? Revolutionist fine, but he's NOTHING to the dreamer. I might come off a a troll saying this, but this poll is so obviously decided by the newcomers to the scene who haven't even seen half the people on that list play. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22260 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:10 GinNtoniC wrote: Nal_rA I mean are you kidding me!? Bisu? Revolutionist fine, but he's NOTHING to the dreamer. I might come off a a troll saying this, but this poll is so obviously decided by the newcomers to the scene who haven't even seen half the people on that list play. Aaaaaaactually... To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off. Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu. Edit - I think a lot of veterans in this thread are taking the question to mean which Protoss was the most creative - that one would be a no brainer. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote: Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world. A lot of people say this. He used to for sure, but I thought during the last few years it has been in the 200-240 range. I'm at work so no BW chart. Can anyone confirm/deny? Maybe check it here http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/11902? That's the newest Nal_rA rep I know of. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:21 EvilTeletubby wrote: Aaaaaaactually... To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off. Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu. Edit - I think a lot of veterans in this thread are taking the question to mean which Protoss was the most creative - that one would be a no brainer. I'd give you credit for the most influental player on modern pvz. that's it. For the most influental player on the Protoss race as a whole throughout SC history, I have to stick with rA. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote: Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world. Bisu is the result of all the protoss players before him, he needs some credit though for executing the "bisu build", correct it was not his but its no reason to say "WTF BISU DIDNT DO ANYTHING". yes im a bisu fanboy but i do agree though that rA should win this poll. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
Edit: Do note that Bisu has been deliberately working on upping his APM. I don't know if that was ever in rA's consideration. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:21 EvilTeletubby wrote: Aaaaaaactually... To be completely honest, I voted for Bisu, for pretty much the same reasons Nazgul mentioned. Obviously Kang Min springs to mind before anyone else, but when you're talking about the race as a whole, you really can't ignore the staggering impact Bisu had. Ra's innovations were really only used by, well, Ra himself. Even back in the day when he was throwing down his forge first vs Zerg, everyone else kept 2 gating. Not because Ra's builds didn't work, but because it was something only he could pull off. Bisu's play is pretty much the de facto standard today... It's *really* hard to ignore somebody who came up with such a solid, flexible opening that is used by just about EVERY PROTOSS WHO PLAYS THE GAME from the professional level on down (not counting pub b.net games for obvious reasons). Yes, he is newer to the scene relatively speaking, and comparitively, Ra would have been more innovative and creative, but the poll is asking which Protoss had the largest impact - and as an observer of professional Starcraft for over 6 years now, I will still have to give this one to Bisu. I have a question then (I hope I won't be seen as a troll or something). When Ra was using the FE, and everyone was 2 gating, did that downplay nal_rA's contribution for the Protoss race? Was the fact that he was just plain better (since the others didn't quite see the potential in FE) that the other Protoss players during his prime, pull him down? What if during nal_rA's prime, people started copying his Forge FE, does that make him better then? Because what I understand from the second paragraph is that Bisu got your vote because he managed to create something that was versatile, and therefore, influenced the modern PvZ Uhm you can opt not to answer this because GinNtonic included the "modern PvZ" part in the thing. | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On May 08 2009 23:01 SilverSkyLark wrote: Had Nal_ra have the same APM as Bisu, I'm sure rA would have done a lot more. rA has 180-ish apm, bisu is just out of this world. In terms of contribution, Nal_rA did really contribute a lot. Bisu was the hero that destroyed everyone, not to mention that he was winning during the Legend of Fall period. Actually, to be a Bonjwa, you need to walk the path of the Bonjwa, which is to win 3 msls then the OSL. So far, there are 4 Bonjwa's: Boxer, NaDa, Oov, and Savior. Boxer didn't walk the path of the bonjwa, but getting into 2 straight OSL finals is something, plus, he held the KePSA #1 rank for more than a year. So, strictly speaking, Bisu isn't really a Bonjwa but he had the dominance that every Bonjwa had. "Bonjwa" is merely a slang term for a player that was dominant for any lengthy period of time. There is no standard formula by which players are given the title. The fact that Boxer never achieved the perceived requirements and is still considered Bonjwa preety much confirms the fact that the entire "3 MSL+1 OSL" formula is a fabrication. Anyway, it is true that Bisu revolutionised the PvZ matchup (although Daezang and Nal_rA did develop the basic concepts). However, is being influential in one matchup really enough for one to be considered the most influential in the entire race? In my opinion, no. EDIT: Aylear, you should watch the replay GARIMTO vs. ChoJJa on MBCGame Lost Temple, StarCraft version 1.10. I think you will find that Garimto uses a very....familiar strategy. | ||
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