EPTGame 1: Byzantium 2
Game 2: Byzantium 2
Winner: Destination
Losers: Destination
Finals: Athena 2
nice...
Power Rank 11/10/2008 - Page 31
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Game 1: Byzantium 2 Game 2: Byzantium 2 Winner: Destination Losers: Destination Finals: Athena 2 nice... | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On December 01 2008 05:03 Geo.Rion wrote: yes, the zergs dominated the prelims. Why? why... Because EVERY SINGLE TERRAN THAT COUNTS ALREADY QULIFIED! And the important part of the protoss race too. Terran: (T)Canata, (T)Dongrae, Fantasy, (T)firebathero*, (T)Flash, (T)fOrGG, (T)FrOzean, (T)go.go, (T)Hwasin, (T)Iris, (T)Leta, (T)Lomo, (T)Memory, (T)NaDa*, (T)RuBy, (T)Sea, (T)UpMagiC Protoss: (P)BackHo, (P)Bisu*, (P)Bul_T, free*, (P)HerO, (P)JangBi*, (P)Kal*, (P)Much, (P)Stork*, (P)Tempest Pls tell me who do you miss? Got someone? Go and chek out, they surely quilfied, like Midas, tester, Light, Baby. Ok, Best and Pusan are exceptions, it happens... Even counting those automatically qualifying, there are more zergs left than tosses, but that's not really the point. But aren't you basically concuring with my opinion that players win because they're better, rather than because they play a certain race? You're basically saying that because all the top tosses alrady qualified, the zergs cleaned up the prelim made up of lame tosses. Well, that's my point. In the end, you win because you're good, not because you play a certain race. And so the reason why zergs don't stick around for the final rounds of the starleagues is because they aren't good enough. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 01 2008 05:28 baubo wrote: Even counting those automatically qualifying, there are more zergs left than tosses, but that's not really the point. But aren't you basically concuring with my opinion that players win because they're better, rather than because they play a certain race? You're basically saying that because all the top tosses alrady qualified, the zergs cleaned up the prelim made up of lame tosses. Well, that's my point. In the end, you win because you're good, not because you play a certain race. And so the reason why zergs don't stick around for the final rounds of the starleagues is because they aren't good enough. yeap, i wrote the same. Tosses are in form lately, and zergs are not, it seems you skipped that part. The maps are an X factor that bebefits the protosses, who are doing very well anyway | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote: The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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trollbone
France1905 Posts
Medusa and Requiem are balanced map in PvZ ! look at the stats ! And Destination is just 9-14. U can't cry that there is obvious imbalance in this league. But in the Top 16 there will be only 2 zergs. Why ? Because protoss now and some terrans are better. Thats why... | ||
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Polar_Bear
Germany55 Posts
also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage. You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players. You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T". Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed: a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results? or b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad) I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z. Back to topic: imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
On December 01 2008 06:06 Polar_Bear wrote: @baubo: thanks, finally somebody mentions that! also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage. You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players. You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T". Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed: a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results? or b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad) I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z. Back to topic: imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm Wait, what? Is that sarcasm? | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 01 2008 05:59 trollbone wrote: Open your eyes ! We cant always say that X race loose because of the current set of maps ! Zergs in general just suck at this particular time. Maybe they are hibernating ? Look at GOM TV S2. The maps are Destination, Requiem, Medusa Medusa and Requiem are balanced map in PvZ ! look at the stats ! And Destination is just 9-14. U can't cry that there is obvious imbalance in this league. But in the Top 16 there will be only 2 zergs. Why ? Because protoss now and some terrans are better. Thats why... Who do you adress, you should name | ||
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Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
And no,Calm should no fucking way be in top 5. Even putting him on the Pr would be generous. He is good,but not really top 10 material.I mean look. There are players like: Stork,Bisu,Free,Kal,Jangbi,Flash,Jaedong,Best,FBH and Pusan. How can you possibly place Calm above any of these guys. In fact,why would you place him above guys like Saint,Zero, Effort,Savior or Yarnc. He didn't really have better results then them this month. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 01 2008 06:06 Polar_Bear wrote: @baubo: thanks, finally somebody mentions that! also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage. You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players. You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T". Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed: a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results? or b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad) I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z. Back to topic: imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm a) Yes, maps play a role. in MSL ther's always a map which is ridicoulosly imbalanced. (like tiamat was and Byzantium is) I dont know who wrote an article or post about Byzantium, maybe artosis where he explained why is that map imbalanced in pvz (your base it's almost untauchable with drops, protoss can take expos very easiely etc). I could give some arguments about Destination favoring toss, but i'm not a very good player or a bold analyzer, so i dont bother with it, you would criticise that i'm sure. b) yes there is, but i don't know why do you all exclude the role of the maps. yes, protosses are in form, zergs arent, protoses are doing better than zergs, and the maps help them a bit too. What so unusual about this? Last season when terrans were tearing apart everything the maps helped them too, they were in a better form of course than the other players, but with the help of the small advantages given by the maps they mainteind scary results sometimes. (Wuthering Heights, Othello, Tiamat, Colosseum) | ||
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
 simple as that, HOLY ... | ||
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Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
I can understand when one or two top zergs are slumping and new tosses come up and tear every zerg apart, but statistics dont lie: class A zergs lost to class A, B, C tosses and only beat D class. Simply cannot be all protoss good and all zergs slumping. Its something fishy in Denmark... Look at MSL: yes zergs qualified but this is coz top and good tosses already were qualified. And look at results: few zergs qualified beating tosses in a real surprise,  BeSt[HyO] lost in his best match up (pvp).I mean, come on: 1- Zerg favorites won:  Luxury vs GuemChi is a difference between Alpha Centauri and Earth, or July vs LuCifer, or GGPlay vs SoO, or GoRush vs han, by.great vs Nbs, Kwanro vs Spear, RorO vs by.mingu, Saint vs Violet. 2- Zerg favorites lost: A surprise is BestGod vs EffOrt3- Protoss favorite winning: Jaehoon vs Child4- Protoss favourite lost: Chalrenge vs FireFist, SangHo vs Modesty, Pusan vs by.heroWhere do you see something wrong? In A and B zergs beating C and D tosses? The real surprise here is EffOrt, who plays very good in PL loosing to a low level protoss and in Pusan loosing to by.hero. | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote: The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days. The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries support the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the map imbalance isn't a big factor when two average players play against each other but it is a huge factor on the highest level of play, where even the smallest thing matter greatly. I just couldn't help myself... edit: Just to avoid confusion - I actually agree that the maps aren't deciding factor in PvZ, I just didn't find this argument satisfying... | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On December 01 2008 08:32 adelarge wrote: Your dumb. No pro gamer is mediocre, the balance effects them all. Many actually GOOD players were in the prelims as well, actual house hold names.The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries support the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the map imbalance isn't a big factor when two average players play against each other but it is a huge factor on the highest level of play, where even the smallest thing matter greatly. I just couldn't help myself... | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On December 01 2008 08:56 Dazed_Spy wrote: Your dumb. No pro gamer is mediocre, the balance effects them all. Many actually GOOD players were in the prelims as well, actual house hold names. Ah, I remember you from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82752¤tpage=24. And I'm not gonna wasting more time arguing with you... | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
1.Stork 2.Flash 3.Bisu check out fomos for the complete list | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 01 2008 18:21 disciple wrote: Its actually out: 1.Stork 2.Flash 3.Bisu i can't found it, can you post a link? | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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