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United States10774 Posts
Close But No Cigar
Calm - Yay Calm! I always knew he had the potential to be a great player, but he never had a breakout. He's playing very well in Proleague. Maybe next season can be his breakout opportunity.
Luxury - Woohoo WCG Gold! Luxury is playing well again, beating Stork in the finals. A nice record of 6-3, with those losses coming from very good players like Kal and Bisu.
Saint - I never knew this guy could play 1v1. Primarily a 2v2 player, he has been a pleasant surprise for everyone. We will see what he can do.
by.great - Great is solid. It's no surprise that he was picked to play in last season's grand finals - the entire team trusts him. He had some huge wins in Proleague. However, he just hasn't played enough to be put on the power rank.
Pusan - Spirit Toss is back in action. He's bulldozing through PL (5-1), let's hope he does just as well in individual leagues.
+ sAviOr - I'LL DESTROY EVERYONE IN 2009! Making a seemingly impossible comeback against TT is surely a good start. Ma Jae Yoon gets a lot of style points though and therefore would not beat out any of the players listed above to the PR.
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the fabled revolution has begun!
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Canada7170 Posts
Hello Legend of the Fall.
Thanks, OneOther.
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nice rank...i think jangbi will continue to be dominant for quite some time
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yay new rank, i agree with everything
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STOOOOOORK
Ah, if only Calm had beaten Bisu, he'd surely have made the powerrank. He nearly had him in game 3. 
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Poor jaedong !
nice power rank btw! Love it
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awesome! thanks for the updates
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Flash is coming back gnehehe.
Isn't it WAY time to change this horriiiible picture of Jangbi in TLPD. It's just ridiculous, jangbi doesn't look like that at all.
I know TL used to dislike him, but it's not a reason.
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6 Protoss, the top 3 all Protoss, and I think it's completely justified as well. Great PR, I don't think I've seen such 1-race dominance in a long while.
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another good power rank, OneOther. must have been a little tough to rank everyone below Jaedong just because no one has really played each other, they've all pretty much just lost against Stork.
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great power rank, agree with it all except free's ranking. I don't know, I just feel a little bit hesitant about that. Oh well, hes playing great and being ranked 1 above what I would consider to be proper, really isnt a big deal what so ever.
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What specific games did you think of when putting fantasy ahead of forgg? Thinking of yesterday's GSL games, I'd be inclined to put forgg ahead of fantasy--but I haven't seen all of the month's games. When was fantasy performing better than forgg?
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Legend of Fall indeed.
5 of 10 are tosses.
and i'm happy. oh so happy!
anyway great power rank!
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Here's to hoping that stork stays on top for a while. and that savior and lux can make it to the next pr
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On November 10 2008 09:45 imperfect wrote:
Legend of Fall indeed.
5 of 10 are tosses.
and i'm happy. oh so happy!
anyway great power rank!
and by 5 you mean 6 =)
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 09:44 CDRdude wrote:
What specific games did you think of when putting fantasy ahead of forgg? Thinking of yesterday's GSL games, I'd be inclined to put forgg ahead of fantasy--but I haven't seen all of the month's games. When was fantasy performing better than forgg?
Only because he made it to the finals and played a close series against Stork. Just the way he made a comeback impressed me. It's more like forGG hasn't done anything to surpass Fantasy, not what Fantasy did to stay head of forGG. If that makes any sense, haha.
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REVOLUTION! REVOLUTION!
BISU!!! BACK ON THE TOP
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United States17042 Posts
On November 10 2008 09:47 strongwind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 09:45 imperfect wrote:
Legend of Fall indeed.
5 of 10 are tosses.
and i'm happy. oh so happy!
anyway great power rank! and by 5 you mean 6 =)
Yea, but what can you do. Legend of the fall still holds.
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It's a hard season to be a non-protoss SC fan :\
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oh man, saint. skt should trade for him to fix their zerg problem and reunite him with bisu. bisu always used to specifically thank saint for vz practice
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Good power rank!
I disagree on several issues though. I'm a Jaedong fan through and through, so this hurts to say . . . but he should really be lower. I also don't think that Flash has really shown the sort of play that would put him above. So I would go
Stork
Bisu
Free
Jangbi
Best
Jaedong
Kal
Flash
Fantasy
Forgg
Five protoss to start the ranking is a little off I know, but this really is a Protoss golden age at the moment (MSL anybody?).
Also, I you have too many players in the CBNC. Getting on that list should mean a lot. You can't throw savior on there for sucking a little less than a black hole. great and calm and saint are good, sure, but not CBNC good. Even FBH is questionable after how thoroughly he was trounced by Bisu and his humiliation in GOM at the hands of Bogus (who?). Luxury and Nada is a prefectly acceptable CBNC.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 09:59 GeneralStan wrote:
Good power rank!
I disagree on several issues though. I'm a Jaedong fan through and through, so this hurts to say . . . but he should really be lower. I also don't think that Flash has really shown the sort of play that would put him above. So I would go
Stork
Bisu
Free
Jangbi
Best
Jaedong
Kal
Flash
Fantasy
Forgg
Five protoss to start the ranking is a little off I know, but this really is a Protoss golden age at the moment (MSL anybody?).
Also, I you have too many players in the CBNC. Getting on that list should mean a lot. You can't throw savior on there for sucking a little less than a black hole. great and calm and saint are good, sure, but not CBNC good. Even FBH is questionable after how thoroughly he was trounced by Bisu and his humiliation in GOM at the hands of Bogus (who?). Luxury and Nada is a prefectly acceptable CBNC.
I would have put Jaedong where you have him on yours because I don't like him, but I feel like everyone below the top 3 could be jumbled up. I think Jaedong is fine where he is. I can see Jangbi above him, but definitely not BeSt.
The guys on CBNC are all similar to each other. I couldn't cut down the list. Thanks for your feedback.
EDIT: I just took out FBH and NaDa 
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Top 3 are Protoss? Mind exploding.
Also, I would say ForGG and Kal are a lot more similar than you make them out to be. Maybe not at this point in time, but in the past ForGG was a lot like Kal. Great in TvP, pretty good at TvZ, and horrid at TvT. Kal was great at PvZ, pretty good at PvT, and horrid at PvP. They both started playing proleague games about the same time. I don't think its a coincidence these two produced an amazing best of 5.
ForGG stepped it up and won a MSL title, partly because his TvT was no longer awful. Kal is a lot better in PvP than he used to be, in a pretty short amount of time. It's not unthinkable that in a year or so (or hey, maybe this MSL) he will get over the hump and win a MSL. Unfortunately I think if he gets past Jangbi, he is going to lose to either Free or Bisu.
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I'm 100% honestly not sure why Jaedong should be above Jangbi/Flash. He's not looking as solid as he used to, and I think that Flash is playing well enough again to be above Jaedong, and Jangbi is on fire.. They are both (Flash/Jaedong) semi-bonjwa's that have been slumping a bit lately, the difference being 1. Flash is owning in PL more than Jaedong, 2. Flash made it farther in the OSL coming from a ridiculous group and lost by a stroke of luck to GGPlay, and 3. Flash went 2-0 against Fantasy in GSL while Jaedong hasn't had any stellar opponents there yet. Jaedong could still be considered more of a threat, but I feel the momentum off the GSL season 1 win isn't enough, even though Flash got eliminated in MSL earlier. I don't know, I'm a bit biased but since the OSL Ro8 loss for Flash he is looking great other than his one loss to Jaedong.
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On November 10 2008 09:59 GeneralStan wrote:
Good power rank!
I disagree on several issues though. I'm a Jaedong fan through and through, so this hurts to say . . . but he should really be lower. I also don't think that Flash has really shown the sort of play that would put him above. So I would go
Stork
Bisu
Free
Jangbi
Best
Jaedong
Kal
Flash
Fantasy
Forgg
Five protoss to start the ranking is a little off I know, but this really is a Protoss golden age at the moment (MSL anybody?).
Also, I you have too many players in the CBNC. Getting on that list should mean a lot. You can't throw savior on there for sucking a little less than a black hole. great and calm and saint are good, sure, but not CBNC good. Even FBH is questionable after how thoroughly he was trounced by Bisu and his humiliation in GOM at the hands of Bogus (who?). Luxury and Nada is a prefectly acceptable CBNC.
I think OneOther would be crucified by fanboys if he put Jaedong that low...
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2008 09:53 Ideas wrote:
It's a hard season to be a non-protoss SC fan :\
Why so closed-minded? Surely one of those Protosses has a playstyle that you like?
Race-biased fans are so boring.
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On November 10 2008 10:08 strongwind wrote:
I think OneOther would be crucified by fanboys if he put Jaedong that low...
I'm a JD fanboy and I'm giving him permission. JD has sorely disappointed me recently.
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Perfect Power Rank.
I have nothing to disagree on. Thanks for the good Power Rank.
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You sick samsung fanboy!
Jangbi? Jangbi?!?!
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I think Luxury should be #10 instead of forgg (He did just win WCG...).
Also, why is Jaedong #4 and Flash #6? There both basically in the same place right, except Flash has a better proleague record. Flash should at least be #5, not to say Jangbi deserves to be lower, but you have to consider comparisons with other players obviously.
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United States10774 Posts
I can't argue back to any of you right now because I have too much homework to do, but I will answer all of your questions tomorrow.
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United States10774 Posts
I'll answer this one right now though.
On November 10 2008 10:24 SuperJongMan wrote:
You sick samsung fanboy!
Jangbi? Jangbi?!?!
HEY SJM STFU BABO!
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2008 10:24 SuperJongMan wrote:
You sick samsung fanboy!
Jangbi? Jangbi?!?!
Jangbi's a good player, and he's been doing well. He walked all over Yarnc, and has lost 1 game in the last 2 months (granted it was to hyvaa). His wins have also been against pretty good players. I see no reason why he shouldn't be there.
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9070 Posts
 OneOther
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nice.
but free and flash should switch ... >>
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On November 10 2008 10:15 samachking wrote:
Perfect Power Rank.
I have nothing to disagree on. Thanks for the good Power Rank.
Same here. OneOther has achieved perfection. 
If only all Power Ranks could be like this
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So many Zergs under performing...
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Just cause Jaedong is under performing doesn't mean you can mess with him.
That's what you get.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Hmm... I wonder what the Koreans think? Can anyone decipher that page?
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On November 10 2008 10:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 09:53 Ideas wrote:
It's a hard season to be a non-protoss SC fan :\ Why so closed-minded? Surely one of those Protosses has a playstyle that you like? Race-biased fans are so boring.
I like Kal and Jangbi, but I HATE PvP
Also hate seeing my fav players lose :\
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On November 10 2008 09:51 Darkblade2519 wrote:
REVOLUTION! REVOLUTION!
BISU!!! BACK ON THE TOP
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So does GOM not count towards official wins and losses? I noticed that because you mentioned Jangbi 11-1 record. I thought GOM games are kespa ranked now, in which case there should be a 2-1 record added.
Anyway, Jangbi and Jaedong's placement stood out the most for me. While I am a Khan fan, I feel that Jangbi's been beating up on some weak competition. Notice zero opponents in the top 10. Memory and Yarnc were both pushovers, while Much has been slumping recently. So I'm inclined to put Flash above him simply because of Flash's pedigree.
As for Jaedong, I guess you do kind of have to throw JD/zerg fans a bone there. If Stork went through JD's month, he'd probably be ridiculed and taken out of the top 10 all together. But JD gets the benefit of the doubt of course.
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United States10774 Posts
Hahaha
One Korean requested the OP to post GosuGamer's Power Ranking too. What a disgrace!
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Just by looking at the PR...
It must be fall.
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Great job OneOther but you forgot Pusan and Sea on CBNC! All three are MBC's aces and they have impressive PL records like Saint!
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I'm happy about Jaedong's placement, no arguments from me. You're right though, 5-8 could be easily switched.
Edit: Dang, I couldn't sneak in a post this time.
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I hope Firebathero makes a return next month, the losses to Bisu just totally threw him off the rank.
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VIVA LA REVOLUTION
Good writeup Ray!
Agree with everything except of how low on the list Fantasy is.
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you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month
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REVOLUTION NOW. BISU NOW. CHANGE NOW.
YES WE CAN. YES WE CAN.
Kim Taek Yong 2012 President of USA
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month
No offense, how many games have you watched this month?
I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be.
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Free's been playing like a God, OneOther's got him right about where he's supposed to be.
Calm should be higher than forGG. He's been playing more games, starting out 5-0 or something, a real asset to STX.
Best should be higher than Jangbi and Flash and Kal higher than Jangbi. Kal beat Stork and ForGG which is much more impressive than Jangbi's 3-0 of Fake Yellow and whatever noob he took out in the Ro32. All of them are going to be Proleague beasts once their individual seasons end. Fantasy is becoming like that now that he has the time.
After TLPD'ing stuff, Jangbi is +3, Kal is +0, Flash is +6, Best is like, +4, Fantasy +1. If you count it that way, I guess Kal deserves should be be where he should be but Best should be higher than at least Jangbi, if not Flash as well (especially if you count the OSL stuff).
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On November 10 2008 12:32 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month No offense, how many games have you watched this month? I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be.
yes I have watched alot. If you look at who Jangbi played, he didnt really played anyone top notch from former PRs. Jangbi is a strong players yes, but stronger than fantasy, and flash? Compared to fantasy, who lost most of his games vs top10 players, and its not like fantasy got raped vs stork. Those games where pretty close. Guess we can only wait and see in MSL if jangbi got what it takes. Frees nada stomp anyone could have done among top10. Tho does 1 game ahead of Jaedong slumping play deserve him third? Imo no.
I sense another PR oozing with fanboyism.
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On November 10 2008 13:02 ThePhan2m wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 12:32 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month No offense, how many games have you watched this month? I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be. yes I have watched alot. If you look at who Jangbi played, he didnt really played anyone top notch from former PRs. Jangbi is a strong players yes, but stronger than fantasy, and flash? Compared to fantasy, who lost most of his games vs top10 players, and its not like fantasy got raped vs stork. Those games where pretty close. Guess we can only wait and see in MSL if jangbi got what it takes. Frees nada stomp anyone could have done among top10. Tho does 1 game ahead of Jaedong slumping play deserve him third? Imo no. I sense another PR oozing with fanboyism.
The Jangbi-Kal semifinal is hard to be useful for PR like the Best v. Stork semifinal (determined the King of PvP) because PvP is one of Kal's better matchups and it's one of Jangbi's weakest.
But asking whether or not Kal is better than Jangbi is a very legit question and the answers are not going to be in concert.
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Savior!! C'mon....just a bit more to get onto the power rank.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 13:02 ThePhan2m wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 12:32 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month No offense, how many games have you watched this month? I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be. yes I have watched alot. If you look at who Jangbi played, he didnt really played anyone top notch from former PRs. Jangbi is a strong players yes, but stronger than fantasy, and flash? Compared to fantasy, who lost most of his games vs top10 players, and its not like fantasy got raped vs stork. Those games where pretty close. Guess we can only wait and see in MSL if jangbi got what it takes. Frees nada stomp anyone could have done among top10. Tho does 1 game ahead of Jaedong slumping play deserve him third? Imo no. I sense another PR oozing with fanboyism.
Jangbi is stronger than Fantasy, yes. While Jangbi verses Flash is arguable, Jangbi has shown more than Flash has this month. Jangbi is in the MSL semifinals, where is Flash? Now, answer my question please. Tell me what Fantasy has done besides the three things I listed above. Sure, Fantasy lost to players in the top 10, but they are still losses. Jangbi didn't lose. I can't believe you are actually claiming that Fantasy should be above Jangbi. Also, stop discrediting what Free has been doing. He beat the strongest ZvPer in Jaedong, then destroyed Nada 3-0. He's excelling in Proleague at the same time. I doubt it's something "anyone in the top 10" could have done.
Please, refrain from ludicrous fanboy accusations. If anything, I sense more of it in your post than all the other posts in this thread.
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this is what i wrote some hours ago
On November 10 2008 00:03 malongo wrote:oneother is having a hard time for next PR but i guess thats the idea. I remade my last PR based on the games i saw today on gomtv and wcg and added some comments. + Show Spoiler +
1 stork: this is protoss!!! yes hes on fire
2 bisu: as good as n1 but he still have to do something more to be 1. that being said his game has reached a new peak, his pvt is on top form and his pvz is da best in da wold. time to check his pvp again.
3 jaedong: omg no free? (see free below), i still cant see someone under jaedong being better overall. (and i see myself as a protoss biased fan)
4 best: hes so solid and thats his strenght, but thats his weak point too, because his solid game is based on standar builds and that makes him predictable. Best needs to evolve, taking more risks in 1 v 1 series or he will never see a starleague title (just as n1 before), he has to use the standars in pl and sharp his pvz.
5 free: i know, i have to argue about this. I just love this guy but, the fact is that he has just being free, just like sea is sometimes sea. He is a monster on pl, he is a monster at pvt and pvz (his pvp is not yet tested by the top p), but how many times has this being different? what would you say now if jaedong 2-1 free?? i have to say that best doesnt look better than free right now but he still looks more consistent to me, because free is just in *that* moment that can burst him to number 3/2 or send him back to be free. I just cant wait to see bisu-free.
6 flash: where are you? we need you... stop kicking fantasys ass and come to save us from never ending pvps.
7 jangbi: poor boy, 3 months ago he should have been top 5 at this same level, but look how many protoss are there playing better than him right now.
8 fantasy: he got silver. i dont think he played bad in fact he took the series to a 5 game that gives him this spot, but he is soo bad on pl, i dont have faith on him. I keep what i thought like 3 weeks ago, -overated after his win on ggplay meh.-
9 forgg: proleague only and some memories about a guy that was good at macro is what i have. still he is like 25% of lecaf so i guess he deserve this spot
10 calm: i was going to give this spot to ggplay but his game against mind on gomtv was... no words, and calm lost too but 1-2 to the best pvz in the world and HE DIDNT LOOK RAPED so that plus a very good pl record gives him this spot.
close but no cigar
-NO i dont see how kal can be top 10 => poor in pl, eliminated by effort 0-2 on osl getting lucky against stork and his road on msl. look at kal vs iris and the rest of the games, this guy is still on msl but i havent seen good play from him.
-PUSAN!! no more protoss please.. but you are on your way back spirit toss.
-hwasin-fbh-yarnc: actually not close not cigar THESE SUCK ATM
-luxury: so bad performance on individual leagues.
-saint: bisus old 2v2 partner has learned to 1v1 and is doing well on pl maybe we´ll see him on a future starleague
i still keep kal out, if i think about reverting storks path on msl (first kal then forgg) im 100% sure stork will be still there and kal out of msl and PR but thats just my imagination so no complaints.
theres only one little thing i just cant pass by oneother: CBNC, how can you put savior, great saint and luxury all z?? where is PUSAN? ZERG BIASED CBNC to say the least
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bisu... stork... seems like 2007 again
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ThePhan2m, I'm more curious as to who you would put in the 3rd spot if not Free. You discredit Free's spot, but you don't offer up your own suggestion in his place.
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noone cares about luxury winning wcg?
he did beat PR #1 2-1 in a final
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 13:19 malongo wrote:this is what i wrote some hours ago Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 00:03 malongo wrote:oneother is having a hard time for next PR but i guess thats the idea. I remade my last PR based on the games i saw today on gomtv and wcg and added some comments. + Show Spoiler +
1 stork: this is protoss!!! yes hes on fire
2 bisu: as good as n1 but he still have to do something more to be 1. that being said his game has reached a new peak, his pvt is on top form and his pvz is da best in da wold. time to check his pvp again.
3 jaedong: omg no free? (see free below), i still cant see someone under jaedong being better overall. (and i see myself as a protoss biased fan)
4 best: hes so solid and thats his strenght, but thats his weak point too, because his solid game is based on standar builds and that makes him predictable. Best needs to evolve, taking more risks in 1 v 1 series or he will never see a starleague title (just as n1 before), he has to use the standars in pl and sharp his pvz.
5 free: i know, i have to argue about this. I just love this guy but, the fact is that he has just being free, just like sea is sometimes sea. He is a monster on pl, he is a monster at pvt and pvz (his pvp is not yet tested by the top p), but how many times has this being different? what would you say now if jaedong 2-1 free?? i have to say that best doesnt look better than free right now but he still looks more consistent to me, because free is just in *that* moment that can burst him to number 3/2 or send him back to be free. I just cant wait to see bisu-free.
6 flash: where are you? we need you... stop kicking fantasys ass and come to save us from never ending pvps.
7 jangbi: poor boy, 3 months ago he should have been top 5 at this same level, but look how many protoss are there playing better than him right now.
8 fantasy: he got silver. i dont think he played bad in fact he took the series to a 5 game that gives him this spot, but he is soo bad on pl, i dont have faith on him. I keep what i thought like 3 weeks ago, -overated after his win on ggplay meh.-
9 forgg: proleague only and some memories about a guy that was good at macro is what i have. still he is like 25% of lecaf so i guess he deserve this spot
10 calm: i was going to give this spot to ggplay but his game against mind on gomtv was... no words, and calm lost too but 1-2 to the best pvz in the world and HE DIDNT LOOK RAPED so that plus a very good pl record gives him this spot.
close but no cigar
-NO i dont see how kal can be top 10 => poor in pl, eliminated by effort 0-2 on osl getting lucky against stork and his road on msl. look at kal vs iris and the rest of the games, this guy is still on msl but i havent seen good play from him.
-PUSAN!! no more protoss please.. but you are on your way back spirit toss.
-hwasin-fbh-yarnc: actually not close not cigar THESE SUCK ATM
-luxury: so bad performance on individual leagues.
-saint: bisus old 2v2 partner has learned to 1v1 and is doing well on pl maybe we´ll see him on a future starleague
i still keep kal out, if i think about reverting storks path on msl (first kal then forgg) im 100% sure stork will be still there and kal out of msl and PR but thats just my imagination so no complaints. theres only one little thing i just cant pass by oneother: CBNC, how can you put savior, great saint and luxury all z?? where is PUSAN? ZERG BIASED CBNC to say the least
Forgot about Pusan, added him.
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So can someone explain me why Jaedong is 4th! If any other player was performing like Jaedong is now there would be no chance that he would be even in top 10. Jaedong lost Bo3 to Free, lost to Stork in WCG, dropped two games in proleague to two medicore players and he is still 4th! I wonder what does he need to do to drop out of top 5? Obviously there is a huge bias towards Jaedong.
The rest of top 10 is fine I guess though I would have put Luxury as 10th instead of ForGG. Also maybe Flash 5th (especially watching his most recent games where he just rolled over Fantasy) but that's more debatable.
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On November 10 2008 13:10 thunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 13:02 ThePhan2m wrote:On November 10 2008 12:32 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month No offense, how many games have you watched this month? I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be. yes I have watched alot. If you look at who Jangbi played, he didnt really played anyone top notch from former PRs. Jangbi is a strong players yes, but stronger than fantasy, and flash? Compared to fantasy, who lost most of his games vs top10 players, and its not like fantasy got raped vs stork. Those games where pretty close. Guess we can only wait and see in MSL if jangbi got what it takes. Frees nada stomp anyone could have done among top10. Tho does 1 game ahead of Jaedong slumping play deserve him third? Imo no. I sense another PR oozing with fanboyism. The Jangbi-Kal semifinal is hard to be useful for PR like the Best v. Stork semifinal (determined the King of PvP) because PvP is one of Kal's better matchups and it's one of Jangbi's weakest. But asking whether or not Kal is better than Jangbi is a very legit question and the answers are not going to be in concert. Um...what do you consider kals weakest match up?
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United States11637 Posts
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On November 10 2008 13:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
noone cares about luxury winning wcg?
he did beat PR #1 2-1 in a final
Maybe stork was more hungover than Luxury.
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PvP is both Kal and Jangbi's gimp match-up. This series will help show who is immediately better at PvP, but doesn't really give rise to mass credibility to the winner, as neither are very PvP orientated. Kal has probably achieved more in PvP to this point, but Jangbi has had the better month.
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Great job OneOther,mine rank would be almost the same,except for Jangbi,I would have put him one or two spots lower,but that's okay,Flash isn't in leagues and Jangbi is an MSL semifinalist and that explains it.
EDIT: Here comes the Revolution(ist)
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On November 10 2008 13:34 Lebesgue wrote:
So can someone explain me why Jaedong is 4th! If any other player was performing like Jaedong is now there would be no chance that he would be even in top 10. Jaedong lost Bo3 to Free, lost to Stork in WCG, dropped two games in proleague to two medicore players and he is still 4th! I wonder what does he need to do to drop out of top 5? Obviously there is a huge bias towards Jaedong.
The rest of top 10 is fine I guess though I would have put Luxury as 10th instead of ForGG. Also maybe Flash 5th (especially watching his most recent games where he just rolled over Fantasy) but that's more debatable.
-RESPECT thats why jaedong cant be under 6 imo. Have you actually watched his loses? wich one of them was a rape? hint: NONE. lost 2 series 1-2 against top tier p, and sangho played really fucking well to take his game on pl. Oh! he lost a zvz lol. Underperforming? a big maybe. slumping? no way, no bias really.
-Luxury over forgg? are you sure? luxury 6-3 pl, forgg 4-1, luxury left osl thxs to *crushing sound* midas and mind. it took stork on fire to take out forgg from msl in a pretty good series, even better than osl finals to me (thats arguable). Ok he won wcg... 
edit: thanks oneother for his work and weeeeeeeeeheeeee PUSAN FIGHTING!
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On November 10 2008 14:20 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 13:34 Lebesgue wrote:
So can someone explain me why Jaedong is 4th! If any other player was performing like Jaedong is now there would be no chance that he would be even in top 10. Jaedong lost Bo3 to Free, lost to Stork in WCG, dropped two games in proleague to two medicore players and he is still 4th! I wonder what does he need to do to drop out of top 5? Obviously there is a huge bias towards Jaedong.
The rest of top 10 is fine I guess though I would have put Luxury as 10th instead of ForGG. Also maybe Flash 5th (especially watching his most recent games where he just rolled over Fantasy) but that's more debatable.
-RESPECT thats why jaedong cant be under 6 imo. Have you actually watched his loses? wich one of them was a rape? hint: NONE. lost 2 series 1-2 against top tier p, and sangho played really fucking well to take his game on pl. Oh! he lost a zvz lol. Underperforming? a big maybe. slumping? no way, no bias really. -Luxury over forgg? are you sure? luxury 6-3 pl, forgg 4-1, luxury left osl thxs to *crushing sound* midas and mind. it took stork on fire to take out forgg from msl in a pretty good series, even better than osl finals to me (thats arguable). Ok he won wcg... edit: thanks oneother for his work and weeeeeeeeeheeeee PUSAN FIGHTING!
I'm not sure. That's why I wrote that's debatable. I wouldn't think of putting Luxury there if not that he won WCG beating Stork straight 2:0.
Regarding Jaedong. I watched most of his recent games (except the series against the Stork) and I consider 4th place for him 2 place too high. If he was 6th I would be ok (that would be out of respect as well). I would definitely put Jangbi above him. Maybe also Best or Flash.
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On November 10 2008 13:34 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 13:10 thunk wrote:On November 10 2008 13:02 ThePhan2m wrote:On November 10 2008 12:32 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 12:23 ThePhan2m wrote:
you place free THAT high? Lucky win against jaedong. comon, he hanst proven himself at all.
and Fantasy 9th? you gotta be joking. None of these others above him like Kal or Jangbi has proven to be any better than fantasy this month No offense, how many games have you watched this month? I don't buy your lucky win argument. A win is a win, and it was a great win at that. Then he destroyed NaDa 3-0 in the quarterfinals. He's tearing apart Proleague. I do not see how he hasn't "proven himself at all." Fantasy..what has he done besides lose to Stork in OSL finals, drop several games in Proleague, and get destroyed by Flash in GOM? Kal, on the other hand, beat Stork to advance to to the MSL semifinals. Don't even try to argue about Jangbi - go look at http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/63_JangBi/games before you say anything. He is winning every single game. He has not lost a single game thus far in MSL. Fantasy is where he deserves to be. yes I have watched alot. If you look at who Jangbi played, he didnt really played anyone top notch from former PRs. Jangbi is a strong players yes, but stronger than fantasy, and flash? Compared to fantasy, who lost most of his games vs top10 players, and its not like fantasy got raped vs stork. Those games where pretty close. Guess we can only wait and see in MSL if jangbi got what it takes. Frees nada stomp anyone could have done among top10. Tho does 1 game ahead of Jaedong slumping play deserve him third? Imo no. I sense another PR oozing with fanboyism. The Jangbi-Kal semifinal is hard to be useful for PR like the Best v. Stork semifinal (determined the King of PvP) because PvP is one of Kal's better matchups and it's one of Jangbi's weakest. But asking whether or not Kal is better than Jangbi is a very legit question and the answers are not going to be in concert. Um...what do you consider kals weakest match up?
Shit, apparently it does suck. It's definitely in Kal's top 3 though.
I consider that whole side of that bracket gimped. As in, disabled.
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Im trying to translate some of the nicknames the guy wrote on dc I'll try to explain some too
1. Stork - Commander 사령관
2. Bisu - Revolutionist 혁명가
3. Free - Emperor of Thunder 뇌제
4. Jaedong - Tyrant 폭군
5. Jangbi - God 허느님 - In korean god is 하느님(ha nuh nim) Jangbi's real name is huh young moo (허영무) so replace the ha with huh and you get huh num nim.
6. Flash - Ultimate Weapon 최종병기
7. Best - Doh Monster 도괴수 - 괴수(gweso) means monster and since best's name is doe jae wook(도재욱) put the doh in front of and you get doh gwesu. Doh monster.
8. Kal - Goojila 구질라
9. Fantasy - 정라덴(jong la den) Fantasy's name is jong myung hoon so they took the jong part. I dont know know what 라덴 is sry.
10. Forgg - conquerer 정복.
Help me on some
ty malongo and oneother <3
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United States10774 Posts
1. stork - commander
2. bisu - revolutionist
3. free - something with brain, i believe
4. jaedong - tyrant
5. jangbi - something with god
6. flash - ultimate weapon
7. best - doh monster/beast
8. kal - goojila
9. fantasy - no clue..some kind of reference to bin laden?
10. forgg - i think so.
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On November 10 2008 09:57 traced wrote:
oh man, saint. skt should trade for him to fix their zerg problem and reunite him with bisu. bisu always used to specifically thank saint for vz practice
been thinking about this too and if it wasn't for the feeling that saint is completely loyal to MBC then... well... it's probably not gonna happen, but it would solve a lot of things for SKT T1.
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hahaha fantasy's nickname bin laden
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On November 04 2008 01:16 fw wrote:Show nested quote +
However from the 2nd half of 2007, the spirit started weakening. It became more and more difficult to see him acting as that clutch ace card, and as expected, MBCgame started to lose more matched. During that time, the “Revolutionist” Kim TaekYong (Bisu) (SKT), “Monster” Do JaeWook (Best) (SKT), “Joker” Kim KyuHyun (Kal) (STX), “Huhneunim” Huh YoungMoo (JangBi), “Brain” Yoon YongTae (Free) (Woongjin) became the next generation of protoss stars, and it seemed as if Park JiHo’s name would be forgotten.
Free's nick (뇌제, Noei-Je) is misunderstood. - 뇌(뢰) [雷] ; Thunder(storm) * this is a correct hanja (chinese) for free's nick - 뇌 [腦] ; Brain
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Lol, I just checked Jaedong's profile, he's 4th in ELO, KeSPA and Power Rank. XD
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
FOR ONCE I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE PR
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United States2186 Posts
I disagree with a lot of this, and outside of the godawful first one I've rarely had any major qualms with a PR . The top 3 are certainly right anyone questioning them is pretty insane (I've never liked Stork but he's shown some pretty intelligent play and definitely deserves this so much after so long), but everything below there is justified with really shaky reasoning. In order...
Jaedong is really really high up for how awful he did last month. Losing to Free, losing to Stork, going 3-2 in ZvZ vs very questionable opponents outside of Yarnc. Firefirst and Child are gimmes, losing to Roro is pretty unacceptable for having the best zvz in history but hey stuff happens; Shark may or may not have a good zvz but I'm guessing it's the latter.
Free certainly played fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Jaedong in good form a couple months ago stomped all over him. And then losing to Stork, who lost to LUXURY in the FINALS (Luxury=biggest post-Midas choker, at least in ZvP). Is this appeasement to hold off the rampant Jaedong fanboys or what? The logic doesn't add up at all.
If JD had been dominating at his old level back in early 08/late 07 then yeah this would've made complete sense to keep him high, but while he's been playing quite well over the summer/fall it's not nearly at that old level. Getting raped by an on-fire ForGG, owning a slumping Flash, losing to Han, and winning WCG against players who can't PvZ (where he owned Free 2-0) still deserved #1 when ForGG went invisible but it was a shaky #1. Now he loses to Free, loses to Stork, loses random games v Z/P, and makes a nice move vs Flash. That doesn't deserve a 4th whatsoever, especially in a month where a very large number of people are excelling. I like Jaedong and wish he had won WCG/MSL, but his play this month is just awful.
When Bisu did this badly back when he was being considered for Bonjwa he got dropped from 1st (Losing to Mind but beating a strong Savior) to 2nd (after losing to Stork horribly and barely beating Upmagic) to 7th (failing MSL to Jaedong/Yarnc while doing ok in Proleague/OSL), and Bisu was dominating far far harder than Jaedong in the previous months.
The last time Jangbi cherrypicked his way to MSL semis in the easiest bracket in history (GOM 4) he didn't get ranked and didn't even get a CBNC, going 6-1 against an equally creampuff list of opponents. Now he gets 5th when several other players are proving themselves vs much better competition??? I'd even consider putting Kal above Jangbi because despite the record difference, Kal beat STORK, even if Stork was in hardcore practice for OSL finals, Kal still played really nicely.
Jangbi's MSL run this time looks to have an edge on his last one with an even easier list of opponents (Orion and Upmagic vs Memory and Yarnc ZvP; wow that's a tough pick of which is easier but Upmagic was probably better than Yarnc's vP), and ironically he is meeting Kal again in the semis. Going 9-1 is great sure and he definitely belongs up there (as he did last month too) but anything higher than 7-8th is really questionable. Best and Flash have done a lot better than him comparatively, and Fantasy has proved himself against MUCH MUCH better competition.
While Flash in the last PR really sucked and only got a justified 6th because nobody else was playing well (unlike this month where so many people are playing well), now stays at 6th again despite playing really well after his embarassing,but deserved; not a BO loss by any means, to Jaedong. He was stupid against GGplay game 1 who did a nice mech counter, but really didn't deserve to lose game 3 at all. It wouldn't have been much luck if Flash left his vultures on top of a mine and they just died when a ling hit them, but that mine got dragged several screens and hit moving vultures!
Now Flash is on an 8-0! streak, unquestionably has the best TvT right now, and is proleague leader. His opponents list isn't particularly great outside Fantasy, where Flash played very very well. Whether he is better than Best is up in the air as he has barely played any non-TvTs recently, but he is definitely outperforming Jangbi/Jaedong and is again holding KTF in the top 3.
I really dislike Best for being a boring, mechanical protoss and hope he loses, but he got shafted rather unfairly here. There is reasonable justification to put him over Flash even (and certainly Jaedong/Jangbi). Let's see, he rapes Midas who didn't look too bad before that, loses to the only person who could beat him PvP, Stork, with a great series (although his lack of planning/thinking clearly showed). He still can't win vs Zerg at all (where he is 3-3 vs baddies besides Jaedong), but his PvT/PvP, outside of his Stork series, are 9-1 vs a pretty reasonable competition (Midas, Kal, Tempest, Pusan...maybe Much? Is he sucking now?) and is proleague #2. Just like with ForGG, this guy got screwed by being matched up against Stork. He may be a 2 matchup wonder but his PvT/PvP are #2, behind Stork (might be able to make an argument for Bisu; he's rather untested though). That really deserves higher than a 7.
I think Kal deserves higher than Jangbi but honestly that can go either way. It really comes down to, how much is beating a Stork practicing for PvT OSL finals for? Yeah he would've lost if it was groups C/D, but you can't exactly count that against him, just not for him. He clearly didn't beat Godmode Stork, but it's not at all like Stork played bad. Kal definitely played a lot smarter than Best did and is clearly a stronger series player. But he's so ugh outside of series. Rather like a Mind.
Fantasy however, had by far the hardest schedule besides Stork. Yeah he went 14-13, but his list of competitors and his own play was still top of the line: Flash, Stork, GGplay's ZvT, Mind. He showed some extremely impressive thinking and took Stork 2-3. His one downside is his lackluster proleague play. He did lose to Flash when Flash played very very well, lost to a well-played all-in by Effort, but losing to Saint/Tester is pretty poor and why he could be argued to be placed below Jaedong. But since being controversial might not get this big post ignored I'll put him above.
IMO for ForGG's explanation you should've put that he was knocked out of MSL/WCG Korea to the #1 Stork. While there is certainly argument that Luxury deserved this with a WCG gold, strong proleague performance, and overcoming his horrible choking, I agree that ForGG deserved it more since if not for super lame brackets, he could've went quite far. He's the opposite of Jangbi really.
So to sum up:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4 Flash
5 Best
6 Fantasy
7 Jaedong
8 Kal
9 Jangbi
10 ForGG
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Why is jaedong third?
His month was much worse than flash's and jangbi is in the semifinals.
I'd put jaedong and best on the same level, tied for 7th. Both are solid players, but they had bad months.
On the other hand, flash is playing amazingly in the proleague again and deserves a higher spot.
I know people don't love flash, but I can't understand why there's so much bias against him.
No real complaints otherwise.
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United States10774 Posts
He's fourth. Ver, nice post - I will reply to it later.
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6 in the top 8 are protosses! Legend of the Fall indeed.
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Awesome Power Rank selections and rankings.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 16:03 Ver wrote:
I disagree with a lot of this, and outside of the godawful first one I've rarely had any major qualms with a PR . The top 3 are certainly right anyone questioning them is pretty insane (I've never liked Stork but he's shown some pretty intelligent play and definitely deserves this so much after so long), but everything below there is justified with really shaky reasoning. In order...
Jaedong is really really high up for how awful he did last month. Losing to Free, losing to Stork, going 3-2 in ZvZ vs very questionable opponents outside of Yarnc. Firefirst and Child are gimmes, losing to Roro is pretty unacceptable for having the best zvz in history but hey stuff happens; Shark may or may not have a good zvz but I'm guessing it's the latter.
Free certainly played fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Jaedong in good form a couple months ago stomped all over him. And then losing to Stork, who lost to LUXURY in the FINALS (Luxury=biggest post-Midas choker, at least in ZvP). Is this appeasement to hold off the rampant Jaedong fanboys or what? The logic doesn't add up at all.
Jaedong lost to Free, Jaedong lost to Stork. He's below both of them. I do agree, however, that Jaedong could possibly be placed one or two spots lower, maybe even below Flash. But I think he is fine where he is now. Only Jangbi and Flash could make a case for being higher. Of course both of them played better than Jaedong, but I am giving Jaedong some benefit of doubt and being generous on the former #1.
If JD had been dominating at his old level back in early 08/late 07 then yeah this would've made complete sense to keep him high, but while he's been playing quite well over the summer/fall it's not nearly at that old level. Getting raped by an on-fire ForGG, owning a slumping Flash, losing to Han, and winning WCG against players who can't PvZ (where he owned Free 2-0) still deserved #1 when ForGG went invisible but it was a shaky #1. Now he loses to Free, loses to Stork, loses random games v Z/P, and makes a nice move vs Flash. That doesn't deserve a 4th whatsoever, especially in a month where a very large number of people are excelling. I like Jaedong and wish he had won WCG/MSL, but his play this month is just awful.
When Bisu did this badly back when he was being considered for Bonjwa he got dropped from 1st (Losing to Mind but beating a strong Savior) to 2nd (after losing to Stork horribly and barely beating Upmagic) to 7th (failing MSL to Jaedong/Yarnc while doing ok in Proleague/OSL), and Bisu was dominating far far harder than Jaedong in the previous months.
We all know it was a bad month for Jaedong, but neither did he play bad enough to be placed lower, nor did others below him show enough to surpass him.
Look, I dislike Jaedong and would have loved to put him lower. But I don't think losses to fire-mode Free and Stork AREN'T THAT BAD. It's like a paradox for me: I can see Flash being higher than Jaedong, but Flash cannot above Jangbi.
The last time Jangbi cherrypicked his way to MSL semis in the easiest bracket in history (GOM 4) he didn't get ranked and didn't even get a CBNC, going 6-1 against an equally creampuff list of opponents. Now he gets 5th when several other players are proving themselves vs much better competition??? I'd even consider putting Kal above Jangbi because despite the record difference, Kal beat STORK, even if Stork was in hardcore practice for OSL finals, Kal still played really nicely.
I disagree. I value Jangbi going undefeated in MSL more than Kal beating Stork 3-2, when the guy was probably barely even practicing.
Jangbi's MSL run this time looks to have an edge on his last one with an even easier list of opponents (Orion and Upmagic vs Memory and Yarnc ZvP; wow that's a tough pick of which is easier but Upmagic was probably better than Yarnc's vP), and ironically he is meeting Kal again in the semis. Going 9-1 is great sure and he definitely belongs up there (as he did last month too) but anything higher than 7-8th is really questionable. Best and Flash have done a lot better than him comparatively, and Fantasy has proved himself against MUCH MUCH better competition.
Fantasy proved himself last month, but not this month. All he has been doing is losing, while Jangbi has been winning non stop. I understand the competition isn't as strong as it could be, but reaching semifinals without a single loss is a feat that should be valued. He is a semifinalist, Flash is not. Jangbi has a lot more to practice for, yet he is playing very well in Proleague, too. Why in the world would you put BeSt above Jangbi in this month's Power Rank? He lost pretty badly to Stork in his best by far matchup of PvP, as well as Tempest. Jangbi should be above these guys, no question.
Now Flash is on an 8-0! streak, unquestionably has the best TvT right now, and is proleague leader. His opponents list isn't particularly great outside Fantasy, where Flash played very very well. Whether he is better than Best is up in the air as he has barely played any non-TvTs recently, but he is definitely outperforming Jangbi/Jaedong and is again holding KTF in the top 3.
I am fine with Flash over Jaedong, but not Flash over Jangbi. Jangbi has been leading Samsung just like Flash has been. While Flash has played more and won more in Proleague, that's because he is not in any individual leagues. Both are doing well in Proleague, but Jangbi is undefeated on his way so far to the MSL semis, while Flash was eliminated much earlier.
I really dislike Best for being a boring, mechanical protoss and hope he loses, but he got shafted rather unfairly here. There is reasonable justification to put him over Flash even (and certainly Jaedong/Jangbi). Let's see, he rapes Midas who didn't look too bad before that, loses to the only person who could beat him PvP, Stork, with a great series (although his lack of planning/thinking clearly showed). He still can't win vs Zerg at all (where he is 3-3 vs baddies besides Jaedong), but his PvT/PvP, outside of his Stork series, are 9-1 vs a pretty reasonable competition (Midas, Kal, Tempest, Pusan...maybe Much? Is he sucking now?) and is proleague #2. Just like with ForGG, this guy got screwed by being matched up against Stork. He may be a 2 matchup wonder but his PvT/PvP are #2, behind Stork (might be able to make an argument for Bisu; he's rather untested though). That really deserves higher than a 7.
No, he doesn't. Him beating down Midas counted towards the previous ranking, so it does not take part in this one. All BeSt has done this month is to lose to Stork in his BEST matchup, where he had a 16 winning streak. He was favored to win, in my opinion. Yet he lost 1-3. His win vs Pusan is great, but other than that he beat the terrible Shark and slumping Much. Then he loses to Tempest. There is no way in hell BeSt should be higher than where he is.
I think Kal deserves higher than Jangbi but honestly that can go either way. It really comes down to, how much is beating a Stork practicing for PvT OSL finals for? Yeah he would've lost if it was groups C/D, but you can't exactly count that against him, just not for him. He clearly didn't beat Godmode Stork, but it's not at all like Stork played bad. Kal definitely played a lot smarter than Best did and is clearly a stronger series player. But he's so ugh outside of series. Rather like a Mind.
Already gave my opinion on this up somewhere. I strongly disagree.
Fantasy however, had by far the hardest schedule besides Stork. Yeah he went 14-13, but his list of competitors and his own play was still top of the line: Flash, Stork, GGplay's ZvT, Mind. He showed some extremely impressive thinking and took Stork 2-3. His one downside is his lackluster proleague play. He did lose to Flash when Flash played very very well, lost to a well-played all-in by Effort, but losing to Saint/Tester is pretty poor and why he could be argued to be placed below Jaedong. But since being controversial might not get this big post ignored I'll put him above.
FanTasy hasn't done anything this month, and the only reason why he is staying on here is that he gave Stork a pretty good series. Summary of Fantasy this month = lose to stork, spanked by flash, lose more in Proleague. #9, be satisfied.
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4 Flash
5 Best
6 Fantasy
7 Jaedong
8 Kal
9 Jangbi
10 ForGG
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
is the most altered list I can agree with you on.
To sum it up, I would be fine with Jaedong lower. Nothing else though.
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The only thing I disagree with is Jangbi's placement. Why so high?
Here are his last 10 games, according to TLPD:
+ Show Spoiler +
Now, this is an impressive record. But... the only player who has a good vP on that list is Pure. 40% of these wins come from fake yellow! His road through the MSL has been tediously easy. He has yet to have any significant amount of pressure put on him - Memory and Yarnc??? Come on.
Now Jangbi is good, don't get me wrong. But I think he should be below Flash, with BeSt and Kal. I would even put him below those two. Kal's path to MSL semifinals: Iris ---> Stork. This is much much tougher. His games against Iris were terrible, but the series against Stork should put him above Jangbi by its self.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 16:46 TarsTarkas wrote:The only thing I disagree with is Jangbi's placement. Why so high? Here are his last 10 games, according to TLPD: + Show Spoiler +Now, this is an impressive record. But... the only player who has a good vP on that list is Pure. 40% of these wins come from fake yellow! His road through the MSL has been tediously easy. He has yet to have any significant amount of pressure put on him - Memory and Yarnc??? Come on. Now Jangbi is good, don't get me wrong. But I think he should be below Flash, with BeSt and Kal. I would even put him below those two. Kal's path to MSL semifinals: Iris ---> Stork. This is much much tougher. His games against Iris were terrible, but the series against Stork should put him above Jangbi by its self.
I think I said earlier than I value Jangbi's path to the semis without a single loss and his impressive PL record more than Kal's 3-2 victory over Stork, who had to play in the finals like two days later. Kal's lackluster Proleague showings don't help either. Jangbi should definitely be above Kal.
Flash has been playing great, with some solid TvT wins. However, Jangbi's cruise to the MSL semis and still keeping up in Proleague means more to me. Had Flash at least made it to the quarters of MSL, he would be above Jangbi. All Flash had to do was focus and practice for Proleague, which would certainly help him perform better.
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Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly
Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title
Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT
On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list
EDIT: JD lower, Flash/Jangbi Higher
This is how i'd do it
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4 Jangbi
5 Flash
6 Kal
7 Fantasy
8 Jaedong
9 Best
10 Luxury
Forgg hasent done more than lux, or calm for that matter, he got knocked outta msl and has only gone 4-1, which is worse than calm or lux
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On November 10 2008 16:52 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 16:46 TarsTarkas wrote:The only thing I disagree with is Jangbi's placement. Why so high? Here are his last 10 games, according to TLPD: + Show Spoiler +Now, this is an impressive record. But... the only player who has a good vP on that list is Pure. 40% of these wins come from fake yellow! His road through the MSL has been tediously easy. He has yet to have any significant amount of pressure put on him - Memory and Yarnc??? Come on. Now Jangbi is good, don't get me wrong. But I think he should be below Flash, with BeSt and Kal. I would even put him below those two. Kal's path to MSL semifinals: Iris ---> Stork. This is much much tougher. His games against Iris were terrible, but the series against Stork should put him above Jangbi by its self. I think I said earlier than I value Jangbi's path to the semis without a single loss and his impressive PL record more than Kal's 3-2 victory over Stork, who had to play in the finals like two days later. Kal's lackluster Proleague showings don't help either. Jangbi should definitely be above Kal. Flash has been playing great, with some solid TvT wins. However, Jangbi's cruise to the MSL semis and still keeping up in Proleague means more to me. Had Flash at least made it to the quarters of MSL, he would be above Jangbi. All Flash had to do was focus and practice for Proleague, which would certainly help him perform better.
I guess I am fine with Flash being below Jangbi. What I am not fine with is Kal being so far below him - I think at most Kal should be one spot below. But then Kal would have to be above flash, which only marginally works out.
Still - Jangbi is undefeated in the MSL, yes, but it would have been embarrassing had he lost to either fake yellow or Memory even once. Still, that is a decent feat. Keeping up in Proleague is good though.
Damn this power rank thing is difficult. I really thing that Kal and Jangbi ought to have the same number, but that isnt feasable.
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United States10774 Posts
I think Kal's poor Proleague record justifies his place. I just don't think beating most likely unpracticed Stork 3-2 and having a rather bad Proleague record should be valued all that much. If he beats Jangbi, then whole another story, of course.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote:Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list
I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Oneother vs all
That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more.
Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway.
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On November 10 2008 17:18 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote:Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot.
Honestly i think that lux > jaedong
Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo
EDIT: only problem with this PR, lux not here
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:23 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:18 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote:Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot. Honestly i think that lux > jaedong Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo
I agree Luxury and forGG are very close. I had initially put Lux, but changed to forGG last minute after evaluating each player's Proleague record. forGG has beaten some very good players in ace matches, and Luxury does not measure up to that. Although Lux did a great job beating Stork in the WCG finals..I am not putting much weight on it. The maps are outdated, heavily Zerg favored, and the players were probably unprepared. It's obviously vastly different from a a real progaming match setup.
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On November 10 2008 17:27 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:23 Scaramanga wrote:On November 10 2008 17:18 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote:Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot. Honestly i think that lux > jaedong Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo I agree Luxury and forGG are very close. I had initially put Lux, but changed to forGG last minute after evaluating each player's Proleague record. forGG has beaten some very good players in ace matches, and Luxury does not measure up to that. Although Lux did a great job beating Stork in the WCG finals..I am not putting much weight on it. The maps are outdated, heavily Zerg favored, and the players were probably unprepared. It's obviously vastly different from a a real progaming match setup.
I dont think that forgg has a better pl record, they have both beaten keke, funny, forgg has beaten mind but lux has beaten much and calm
Forgg bombed outta msl but yeah thats my only problem
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:41 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:27 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:23 Scaramanga wrote:On November 10 2008 17:18 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote:Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote:
1 Stork
2 Bisu
3 Free
4/5 Jangbi/Flash
6 Jaedong
7 Best
8 Kal
9 Fantasy
10 forGG
This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot. Honestly i think that lux > jaedong Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo I agree Luxury and forGG are very close. I had initially put Lux, but changed to forGG last minute after evaluating each player's Proleague record. forGG has beaten some very good players in ace matches, and Luxury does not measure up to that. Although Lux did a great job beating Stork in the WCG finals..I am not putting much weight on it. The maps are outdated, heavily Zerg favored, and the players were probably unprepared. It's obviously vastly different from a a real progaming match setup. I dont think that forgg has a better pl record, they have both beaten keke, funny, forgg has beaten mind but lux has beaten much and calm Forgg bombed outta msl but yeah thats my only problem
Why are you even bringing up MSL if forGG did far better than Luxury? forGG put up a good fight verses the number one Stork and lost 1-2 in the Round of 16. Not exactly "bombed out."
Like I said, Lux and forGG are very close. forGG beat TvT beasts Mind and Canata. Only notable win of Luxury is against Calm. They are both doing well in Proleague.
It just depends on how much weight you put on Lux winning the WCG Gold. I personally don't think it means much, and I would pick forGG over Lux to play for me in Proleague any day. Again, I don't see why forGG's loss to Stork in MSL is such a problem when Lux didn't even make it that far.
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On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway.
Not sure if it helps, but you could write that some players are close, while others are not. Stork, Bisu, and to a certain extent Free are really not debatable choices. But Jaedong/Jangbi/Flash are fairly close.
You can also say that that you put Jaedong 4th only because you don't want to deal with the hassle of JD fanboys ripping you apart.  This way objective readers will understand and fanboys will be appeased.
It's surprising to know you place a lot more on performances rather than matchups. I can see why, considering we can play hypotheticals all we want, while actual game performances are indisputable. But I think the fact that Jangbi has played absolutely no top-tier player makes his rank quite strange. I feel his rank is much less debatable next month. If he continues his solid PL play and at least make the finals, he can then be undisputably top 5.
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Jaedong damnit... Well please. DESTROYER PLEASE GET BACK!!! WE NEED OUR SAVIOR ZERG MORE THAN EVER!!
Hope JD will get out of his slump and hope the destroyer get's back on his top. I'd really love if #1 spots where Z
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United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:58 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Oneother vs all That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway. Not sure if it helps, but you could write that some players are close, while others are not. Stork, Bisu, and to a certain extent Free are really not debatable choices. But Jaedong/Jangbi/Flash are fairly close. You can also say that that you put Jaedong 4th only because you don't want to deal with the hassle of JD fanboys ripping you apart. This way objective readers will understand and fanboys will be appeased. It's surprising to know you place a lot more on performances rather than matchups. I can see why, considering we can play hypotheticals all we want, while actual game performances are indisputable. But I think the fact that Jangbi has played absolutely no top-tier player makes his rank quite strange. I feel his rank is much less debatable next month. If he continues his solid PL play and at least make the finals, he can then be undisputably top 5.
Thank you for the suggestion. You are pretty much right on about Jaedong. I just didn't want to deal with furious Jaedong fanboys, and could see him up there as well. I guess I am saying it's not that much of a stretch.
You have to understand that although I like to put emphasis on performances, I take circumstances/matchups into account, too. If we only look at the matchlist, Kal and Flash obviously look better. I mean, Kal took down Stork, while Flash has been beating very good Terrans in Proleague. Jangbi's undefeated MSL streak against rather weaker opponents appears relatively insignificant. However, things change when we consider the fact that Kal barely beat out Stork 3-2, when the DinoToss had a ginormous finals match coming up in a couple days. He is also inconsistent in Proleague, with a mediocre record at best. Flash, on the other hand, got eliminated from both individual leagues, and needed to only focus on Proleague matches. Now let's look at Jangbi. Yes, his MSL opponents aren't the best players in the world, but he's 7-0. Take his outstanding Proleague into that formula, and we have Jangbi above both Flash and Kal.
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On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway.
like i said before, this month is tough because you're going almost purely on intuition and how well people did against stork. it's tough to quantify. given results/strength of play/history, i think your top 4 is the most ideal for the reasons you listed in the power rank, but to be honest i don't think there's much separating third from tenth at this point, you can make an argument for a lot of different iterations depending on what games you watched and what things you value more.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
LOL
OneOther vs Rabid Jaedong/Fantasy Fans
WHO WILL BE THE VICTOR
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Pretty good.
I do think Jaedong is a bit high though as others have said... but we'll go with it.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
lol Korean communities criticizing Foreigners to love protoss and hate zerg
OH TEH IRONY
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Zurich15325 Posts
A bold and kind of (for me at least) unexpected PR! I like it a lot, thanks!
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9070 Posts
On November 10 2008 14:54 OneOther wrote:
1. stork - commander
2. bisu - revolutionist
3. free - something with brain, i believe
4. jaedong - tyrant
5. jangbi - something with god
6. flash - ultimate weapon
7. best - doh monster/beast
8. kal - goojila
9. fantasy - no clue..some kind of reference to bin laden?
10. forgg - i think so.
kal is the Hidden Joker
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Oh. i know why fantasy's nick name is Jong(bin)laden .. because he is league terrorist
hahaha
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Let your voice speak for the revolution!, All join forces with all the powers that you feel.
Let your heart beat for the revolution!
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Jangbi has so much potential, if he can just live up to it. Happy overall with this placement.
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All Jangbi's done is kill yarnc over and over and laugh at sparkyz P slaying powers.
Chonnom Kal will SLAY JANGBI!!!
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Aside from Strok and Kal all the players I want to drop deep are on this (not that I could argue against it)... Well, you could have given call a shot but who to take away?... Damn TLPR :p.
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Probably the best PR I've seen in a while imo
Exact same people I wouldve put (at slightly different ranks though)
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On November 10 2008 20:49 SuperJongMan wrote:
All Jangbi's done is kill yarnc over and over and laugh at sparkyz P slaying powers.
Chonnom Kal will SLAY JANGBI!!!
True but thats not his fault, you can blame little toss for not facing better players, in fact the most amazing here is that yarnc that can put a top world zvt and zvz against anyone lost 5 straight games on a 2 month time against him.
Kal is way overated, he won bad serie against iris and took other against a phantom of stork that almost lost, did you watch game 4 against stork? is that a BO? He is 4-4 on pl the worst pl record on msl now. I can say that kal is not even top 10 in my pr look it back.
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I think that the first three are undebatable,Jaedong has no reason to be dropped lower than this,because he lost mainly to the people above him,and Jangbi and Flash and everybody below him has lost to shitty players this season,not only Jaedong. I think that Jangbi can be placed above Flash,because he beat 5 times the player who eliminated Flash from the MSL,and I don't really know of what is Flash capable of against a good zerg,since he was eliminated from both leagues by zergs,and when he faced a good Zerg in Jaedong in the PL he lost. I think Jangbi is more complex,so the ranking is justified. I think that Best could be put above both of them tho,since he mainly lost to players above him in the PR,got as far in the Osl as Jangbi got in the MSL and is as impressive as Flash in the PL. By the way,if you are sent on all of the ace matches,of course you have more opportunity to win,than the people who are not sent out,especially if you are an S class player. I think if Bisu or Stork or Jaedong would have been sent out in all of their teams matches and all of the ace matches,they would have similar stats too. I think Kal and Fantasy are where they belong,and I think ForGG could be higher than Fantasy,since Fantasy hasn't really shown anything this month,while ForGG has been winning a lot. And Luxury:no,he doesn't deserve a rank. He is 6-3 in the PL,losing to every good player he played and losing an ace match. If you attack this post by saying JD is 6-3 too,well he is,but he won both of his ace matches and defeated players like Flash and Best. And WCG is a who gives a shit really tournament. He won it. So what? I'm happy,that Stork didn't become the first player to win too consecutive WCG's,but that's really it.
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It's Bisu Time !! MSL + GOM in his hand !!
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Fantasy's reign of dominance is over befor it could have begun. Ppl can argue that his performence worths more than 9th, but look at this: his tvz build is less and less effective, he looses every TvT recently, and his PvT havent been tested after the finals against Stork, where it looked good bu not the best. And there are so many players in their top form...
Really nice PR. The protoss trio jangbi-kal-best can be hardly ranked, we will know more about them after the MSL.
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Screw Toss. Put 'em back in their place, Flash & Jaedong.
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well, well the PR is simply awesome
like...I like every position. Firstly I was goin` to say that free should be above bisu, but on a second thought, + Show Spoiler +he just beat calm in the GSL
And then, everyone could argue that Best and Kal are too low, but then again + Show Spoiler +Flash beat fantasy...he should be gettin` some credit for that, and honestly, I HATE FLASH!
oh and fantasy...i actually thought he could get the OSL's "one-hit-wonder" award
all in all REALLY good PR , congratulations!
I have to admit I didn`t like u very much in the first place {because yours (and disciple's) biased towards stork, but u proved that you are really realistic after the first PR, (unlike discipile  , no offence)} but I`m very pleased that you made me NOT regret the fact that FS didn`t made the PR
Cheers again!
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Russian Federation386 Posts
Flash to 4th place, the rest is fine. Probably switch fOrGG with Luxury.
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On November 10 2008 18:07 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 17:58 baubo wrote:On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Oneother vs all That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway. Not sure if it helps, but you could write that some players are close, while others are not. Stork, Bisu, and to a certain extent Free are really not debatable choices. But Jaedong/Jangbi/Flash are fairly close. You can also say that that you put Jaedong 4th only because you don't want to deal with the hassle of JD fanboys ripping you apart. This way objective readers will understand and fanboys will be appeased. It's surprising to know you place a lot more on performances rather than matchups. I can see why, considering we can play hypotheticals all we want, while actual game performances are indisputable. But I think the fact that Jangbi has played absolutely no top-tier player makes his rank quite strange. I feel his rank is much less debatable next month. If he continues his solid PL play and at least make the finals, he can then be undisputably top 5. Thank you for the suggestion. You are pretty much right on about Jaedong. I just didn't want to deal with furious Jaedong fanboys, and could see him up there as well. I guess I am saying it's not that much of a stretch. You have to understand that although I like to put emphasis on performances, I take circumstances/matchups into account, too. If we only look at the matchlist, Kal and Flash obviously look better. I mean, Kal took down Stork, while Flash has been beating very good Terrans in Proleague. Jangbi's undefeated MSL streak against rather weaker opponents appears relatively insignificant. However, things change when we consider the fact that Kal barely beat out Stork 3-2, when the DinoToss had a ginormous finals match coming up in a couple days. He is also inconsistent in Proleague, with a mediocre record at best. Flash, on the other hand, got eliminated from both individual leagues, and needed to only focus on Proleague matches. Now let's look at Jangbi. Yes, his MSL opponents aren't the best players in the world, but he's 7-0. Take his outstanding Proleague into that formula, and we have Jangbi above both Flash and Kal.
That's true. I can understand that.
Yes, my suggestion is simply that the ranking system currently does not take into account how much difference between each place. Which is probablamatic. It's like saying one person has a better grade than the other, but doesn't note if it was a difference of 90 vs. 70, or 84 vs 85.
Well, next month will likely be much easier to sort out at the top, with Jangbi/Kal/Bisu/Free all playing each other for the MSL championship.
And just curious, does GOM count towards official records now? I know they're not mentioned in the TLPD, but I thought I read somewhere that KESPA now counts those games.
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United States13896 Posts
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that.
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Wow, top 3 are all Protoss.
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good rank, but hey
wtf jangbi above flash? no no
switch those ty
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Great power rank It hurts my eyes when I see the domination of protoss, but tbh they should be there.
I agree that the PR should have the system of ranking I mean there will be several other factors that would be mis-considered when the writer builds the power rank. the system doesnt have to be so official that we have to determine the factor strictly, but I just think it would be great if we can have sort of measure on the performance of players. It would avoid the debate if personal preference comes into play. But figuring out this kind measure is really really complicated i must admit
And also, is it just me or I cant see any linkage between the power rank in previous months and this month, i am not referring to the statement like saying certain player is up 2 rank, but I mean the linkage between performance between two different points of time. Last month result is also a factor to take into account because it might affect the current performance. One simple example is that if the player was having like 8 wins streak against only one race, T for instance, in the last period they he would be more likely to beat another T, even higher ranked in this month and this win should be given less weight than he beats another strong Z player, despite ranked a bit lower .
Edit,... or it should go the other way I dont know, but there must be a link somehow
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BISU BISU BISU!! FUCK YEAH!
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On November 10 2008 23:16 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 18:07 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:58 baubo wrote:On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Oneother vs all That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway. Not sure if it helps, but you could write that some players are close, while others are not. Stork, Bisu, and to a certain extent Free are really not debatable choices. But Jaedong/Jangbi/Flash are fairly close. You can also say that that you put Jaedong 4th only because you don't want to deal with the hassle of JD fanboys ripping you apart. This way objective readers will understand and fanboys will be appeased. It's surprising to know you place a lot more on performances rather than matchups. I can see why, considering we can play hypotheticals all we want, while actual game performances are indisputable. But I think the fact that Jangbi has played absolutely no top-tier player makes his rank quite strange. I feel his rank is much less debatable next month. If he continues his solid PL play and at least make the finals, he can then be undisputably top 5. Thank you for the suggestion. You are pretty much right on about Jaedong. I just didn't want to deal with furious Jaedong fanboys, and could see him up there as well. I guess I am saying it's not that much of a stretch. You have to understand that although I like to put emphasis on performances, I take circumstances/matchups into account, too. If we only look at the matchlist, Kal and Flash obviously look better. I mean, Kal took down Stork, while Flash has been beating very good Terrans in Proleague. Jangbi's undefeated MSL streak against rather weaker opponents appears relatively insignificant. However, things change when we consider the fact that Kal barely beat out Stork 3-2, when the DinoToss had a ginormous finals match coming up in a couple days. He is also inconsistent in Proleague, with a mediocre record at best. Flash, on the other hand, got eliminated from both individual leagues, and needed to only focus on Proleague matches. Now let's look at Jangbi. Yes, his MSL opponents aren't the best players in the world, but he's 7-0. Take his outstanding Proleague into that formula, and we have Jangbi above both Flash and Kal. That's true. I can understand that. Yes, my suggestion is simply that the ranking system currently does not take into account how much difference between each place. Which is probablamatic. It's like saying one person has a better grade than the other, but doesn't note if it was a difference of 90 vs. 70, or 84 vs 85. Well, next month will likely be much easier to sort out at the top, with Jangbi/Kal/Bisu/Free all playing each other for the MSL championship. And just curious, does GOM count towards official records now? I know they're not mentioned in the TLPD, but I thought I read somewhere that KESPA now counts those games.
Previous season wasnt counte by Kespa or TLPE, that's why JD is 4th at Kespa rankings, but Season 2 is caunted by TLPE and KESPA too.
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On November 10 2008 19:19 MoKcandy wrote:
Oh. i know why fantasy's nick name is Jong(bin)laden .. because he is league terrorist
hahaha
If this is true we koreans make the most silliest nicknames ever
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On November 10 2008 23:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that.
Flash:
ELO Rank: 2nd
KeSPA Rank: 1st
Following your logic Flash should be no1 or no2. Otherwise sth is not right with the power rank...
It is pretty obvious that Jaedong is so high just because he has many fans who cannot admit that he is not doing so well recently.
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On November 11 2008 02:24 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 23:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that. Flash: ELO Rank: 2nd KeSPA Rank: 1st Following your logic Flash should be no1 or no2. Otherwise sth is not right with the power rank... It is pretty obvious that Jaedong is so high just because he has many fans who cannot admit that he is not doing so well recently.
no, it`s obvious to u, coz u are a Flash fan.
I am a JD fan and I admit that he isn`t doing so well lately, but neither does flash. Flash just recently(1-2 weeks) seems to come back to form.
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On November 11 2008 02:24 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 23:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that. Flash: ELO Rank: 2nd KeSPA Rank: 1st Following your logic Flash should be no1 or no2. Otherwise sth is not right with the power rank... It is pretty obvious that Jaedong is so high just because he has many fans who cannot admit that he is not doing so well recently.
Obviously, it's a joke.
Your post reeks of fanboyism, but I'll let other fans flame you.
Also, thanks for ignoring nearly all of my posts in the last PR which I know you read since you posted there.
On November 10 2008 18:25 MrHoon wrote:
LOL
OneOther vs Rabid Anti-Jaedong/Fantasy/Flash Fans
WHO WILL BE THE VICTOR
Fixed.
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flash will probably climb the rankings next PR since he's looking monstrous again.
stork jd bisu flash in top 5 for next rank gogo
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9070 Posts
I thought flash was getting just a regular chump, but he proved me wrong. The ultimate weapon is as strong as ever
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Luxury should really be higher, come on. And EffOrt deserves a mention, does'nt he? I mean zerg players are'nt underperforming as much as you would have it, it's just that Stork and Bisu are so insanely hot right now.
But after reading down to the last CBNC I realized that all is forgiven...MJY!
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Flash> all the other programers. Gom and proleague will tell I guess.
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I KNOW RIGHT?
FANTASY IS OVERRATED
I KNEW I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO THOUGHT SO
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On November 11 2008 03:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 02:24 Lebesgue wrote:On November 10 2008 23:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that. Flash: ELO Rank: 2nd KeSPA Rank: 1st Following your logic Flash should be no1 or no2. Otherwise sth is not right with the power rank... It is pretty obvious that Jaedong is so high just because he has many fans who cannot admit that he is not doing so well recently. Obviously, it's a joke. Your post reeks of fanboyism, but I'll let other fans flame you. Also, thanks for ignoring nearly all of my posts in the last PR which I know you read since you posted there. Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 18:25 MrHoon wrote:
LOL
OneOther vs Rabid Anti-Jaedong/Fantasy/Flash Fans
WHO WILL BE THE VICTOR Fixed.
I am not claiming that Flash should be no1 or no2. I think 5 or 6 is fine for him this month. I was just pointing out that saying that Jaedong is 4th in Elo ranking and 4th in the Kespa ranking doesn't matter at all to justify his position here.
Regarding ignoring your posts in the last power rank: I don't spend lots of time reading each and every post in the threads I post in and I don't check forum that regularly. It is not that I ignored them. Just probably never read them. At least I don't recall reading them.
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For this power rank, I think everyone on the there definitely deserves to be there.
At the least I would say Best>Flash and Jangbi>JD. Although Flash has been practically unstoppable in PL, you have to consider his list of opponents. Memory and Light are just terrible. Boxer and Hwasin are no longer what they used to be. I think Fantasy is still somewhat untested. When Flash went up against JD and FBH, he lost. I am confident in Flash's ability to utterly destroy scrubs, but no longer in his ability to go toe to toe will the very best. Although Best lost to Stork, it is quite undeniable how ridiculously hot Stork is right now. Best is also doing well in PL, only dropping a few games(somehow to his weakest opponents, except JD, wtf losing to nal_keke on a P>Z map???).
As for Jangbi>JD, Jangbi has been doing really really well. With JD losing to Roro and Sangho(?!?!), I just can't see JD as being better than Jangbi currently.
Overall very good PR though, good job.
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Oh come on,why does everyone forget that Jangbi lost to pleyers like hyvaa and Shine this month. Everybody always bitches about Jaedong losing to Sangho,and everybody forgets that Stork,Jangbi,Flash,they all lose some mediocre matches in PL or GOM Classic. It shouldn't mean a damn thing. Shit happens to everyone in the Proleague,and they can lose one match to a noob at this level. Perhaps Jaedong would beat Sangho 9-1 in a bo 10 series,and he just got that one game in the proleague. The only thing for Jaedong which really looks worse than Jangbi is that he's not in the MSL anymore. But look,Jaedong lost to the hot as hell Free,and Jangbi beat Memory and Yarnc. Now I don't want to take anything away from these players,but they are not as hot as Free. I think Jangbi is even too high as he is. If he beats Kal,continues to impress in PL and Gom,and somehow wins the MSL he definetely deserves top3. But I'm absolutely sure he won't. Even if he beats Kal by some miracle,Bisu or Free will just own him to the ground in the final. Samsung tosses did prove me wrong in my last predictions,but I cannot imagine Jangbi as MSL champion.
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Why is everyone questioning Jangbi? Yeah, he hasn't had the hardest MSL, however it was not laughably easy. Memory has always been an incredibly good player, but he was just not able to pull himself together and get consistent results- much like Jangbi was a year ago. Hell he challenged Flash in the quarter finals of GOM last season, and it was for a reason. And for god sakes, its more important to look at the quality of the play rather than who it is against. Look at Jangbi's play. Tell me hes not, at the very minimum, top five. If you still say otherwise your a god damn fool.
If he had harder opponents, Jangbi would of rolled over them too, because hes playing god damn well, and has been for months now.
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United States13896 Posts
On November 11 2008 06:07 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 03:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 11 2008 02:24 Lebesgue wrote:On November 10 2008 23:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
n.die_Jaedong
ELO Rank: 4th
KeSPA Rank: 4th
Power Rank: 4th
Can't argue with that. Flash: ELO Rank: 2nd KeSPA Rank: 1st Following your logic Flash should be no1 or no2. Otherwise sth is not right with the power rank... It is pretty obvious that Jaedong is so high just because he has many fans who cannot admit that he is not doing so well recently. Obviously, it's a joke. Your post reeks of fanboyism, but I'll let other fans flame you. Also, thanks for ignoring nearly all of my posts in the last PR which I know you read since you posted there. On November 10 2008 18:25 MrHoon wrote:
LOL
OneOther vs Rabid Anti-Jaedong/Fantasy/Flash Fans
WHO WILL BE THE VICTOR Fixed. I am not claiming that Flash should be no1 or no2. I think 5 or 6 is fine for him this month. I was just pointing out that saying that Jaedong is 4th in Elo ranking and 4th in the Kespa ranking doesn't matter at all to justify his position here. Regarding ignoring your posts in the last power rank: I don't spend lots of time reading each and every post in the threads I post in and I don't check forum that regularly. It is not that I ignored them. Just probably never read them. At least I don't recall reading them.
lol, dude i wasn't trying to justify shit. i was cracking a joke. take a hit of something and calm down.
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On November 11 2008 06:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Why is everyone questioning Jangbi? Yeah, he hasn't had the hardest MSL, however it was not laughably easy. Memory has always been an incredibly good player, but he was just not able to pull himself together and get consistent results- much like Jangbi was a year ago. Hell he challenged Flash in the quarter finals of GOM last season, and it was for a reason. And for god sakes, its more important to look at the quality of the play rather than who it is against. Look at Jangbi's play. Tell me hes not, at the very minimum, top five. If you still say otherwise your a god damn fool.
If he had harder opponents, Jangbi would of rolled over them too, because hes playing god damn well, and has been for months now.
your right Jangbi deserves it but you should watch Memory vs Aha in GOM just for a good laugh.
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United States10774 Posts
I'll reply to your comments/questions soon
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9070 Posts
On November 11 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:I'll reply to your comments/questions soon
you dont have to do this. let the trash talk float
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United States10774 Posts
On November 11 2008 08:19 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:I'll reply to your comments/questions soon you dont have to do this. let the trash talk float
I was thinking that too, actually. I'll observe.
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I think Kal's win over Stork really was a quality win. Sure he had the finals a couple days before, but it's not as though he forgot how to play PvP in those two days. It didn't seem like map issues were really at fault, so I count it as a quality win over the best player in the world
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I was hoping/expecting JD to still be at second... I scroll a little down and ZOMG +6?!? BISU!!! I knew he was doing good, but this good? Go Bisu[Shield]!!!
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On November 11 2008 08:21 GeneralStan wrote:
I think Kal's win over Stork really was a quality win. Sure he had the finals a couple days before, but it's not as though he forgot how to play PvP in those two days. It didn't seem like map issues were really at fault, so I count it as a quality win over the best player in the world
Look at your quality boy on game 4, is that a pvp BO? finals where 2 days alfter semifinal, at least take the time to look at the calendar.
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On November 11 2008 09:31 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 08:21 GeneralStan wrote:
I think Kal's win over Stork really was a quality win. Sure he had the finals a couple days before, but it's not as though he forgot how to play PvP in those two days. It didn't seem like map issues were really at fault, so I count it as a quality win over the best player in the world Look at your quality boy on game 4, is that a pvp BO? finals where 2 days alfter semifinal, at least take the time to look at the calendar. Kal was being overconfident because he was up 2-1. Pro gamers often do risky strategies when they are ahead. Kal has a great record on athena 2, and was 2-0 against stork on that map. He took a risk to see if he could get an advantage, he did not, and won decisively in the 5th set anyways.
Woopdee fuckin doo.
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I'm in love with this month's power rank. I really don't think I would change a thing... Great job.
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This is many Protoss yes?
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On November 11 2008 09:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 09:31 malongo wrote:On November 11 2008 08:21 GeneralStan wrote:
I think Kal's win over Stork really was a quality win. Sure he had the finals a couple days before, but it's not as though he forgot how to play PvP in those two days. It didn't seem like map issues were really at fault, so I count it as a quality win over the best player in the world Look at your quality boy on game 4, is that a pvp BO? finals where 2 days alfter semifinal, at least take the time to look at the calendar. Kal was being overconfident because he was up 2-1. Pro gamers often do risky strategies when they are ahead. Kal has a great record on athena 2, and was 2-0 against stork on that map. He took a risk to see if he could get an advantage, he did not, and won decisively in the 5th set anyways. Woopdee fuckin doo.
All true. But none of them says it was a quality win, thas my point, it was a lucky win. Do you really think the fact that stork had osl finals 48 hours ahead didnt affected this game?
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On November 11 2008 09:44 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 09:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 11 2008 09:31 malongo wrote:On November 11 2008 08:21 GeneralStan wrote:
I think Kal's win over Stork really was a quality win. Sure he had the finals a couple days before, but it's not as though he forgot how to play PvP in those two days. It didn't seem like map issues were really at fault, so I count it as a quality win over the best player in the world Look at your quality boy on game 4, is that a pvp BO? finals where 2 days alfter semifinal, at least take the time to look at the calendar. Kal was being overconfident because he was up 2-1. Pro gamers often do risky strategies when they are ahead. Kal has a great record on athena 2, and was 2-0 against stork on that map. He took a risk to see if he could get an advantage, he did not, and won decisively in the 5th set anyways. Woopdee fuckin doo. All true. But none of them says it was a quality win, thas my point, it was a lucky win. Do you really think the fact that stork had osl finals 48 hours ahead didnt affected this game? Of course it effected the game. That doesn't make it luck. It means Stork was tired and overworked. But lets be honest, what player, who is dominating multiple leagues, is not overworked? FORGG played 8 games in a day at one point. Its not uncommon. Compared to forgg, stork was god damn fresh. Obviously not fully prepared, obviously not playing to his highest caliber, it doesn't mean he was playing bad however, and it doesn't mean Kal was not playing good.
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On November 11 2008 00:39 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2008 23:16 baubo wrote:On November 10 2008 18:07 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:58 baubo wrote:On November 10 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Oneother vs all That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway. Not sure if it helps, but you could write that some players are close, while others are not. Stork, Bisu, and to a certain extent Free are really not debatable choices. But Jaedong/Jangbi/Flash are fairly close. You can also say that that you put Jaedong 4th only because you don't want to deal with the hassle of JD fanboys ripping you apart. This way objective readers will understand and fanboys will be appeased. It's surprising to know you place a lot more on performances rather than matchups. I can see why, considering we can play hypotheticals all we want, while actual game performances are indisputable. But I think the fact that Jangbi has played absolutely no top-tier player makes his rank quite strange. I feel his rank is much less debatable next month. If he continues his solid PL play and at least make the finals, he can then be undisputably top 5. Thank you for the suggestion. You are pretty much right on about Jaedong. I just didn't want to deal with furious Jaedong fanboys, and could see him up there as well. I guess I am saying it's not that much of a stretch. You have to understand that although I like to put emphasis on performances, I take circumstances/matchups into account, too. If we only look at the matchlist, Kal and Flash obviously look better. I mean, Kal took down Stork, while Flash has been beating very good Terrans in Proleague. Jangbi's undefeated MSL streak against rather weaker opponents appears relatively insignificant. However, things change when we consider the fact that Kal barely beat out Stork 3-2, when the DinoToss had a ginormous finals match coming up in a couple days. He is also inconsistent in Proleague, with a mediocre record at best. Flash, on the other hand, got eliminated from both individual leagues, and needed to only focus on Proleague matches. Now let's look at Jangbi. Yes, his MSL opponents aren't the best players in the world, but he's 7-0. Take his outstanding Proleague into that formula, and we have Jangbi above both Flash and Kal. That's true. I can understand that. Yes, my suggestion is simply that the ranking system currently does not take into account how much difference between each place. Which is probablamatic. It's like saying one person has a better grade than the other, but doesn't note if it was a difference of 90 vs. 70, or 84 vs 85. Well, next month will likely be much easier to sort out at the top, with Jangbi/Kal/Bisu/Free all playing each other for the MSL championship. And just curious, does GOM count towards official records now? I know they're not mentioned in the TLPD, but I thought I read somewhere that KESPA now counts those games. Previous season wasnt counte by Kespa or TLPE, that's why JD is 4th at Kespa rankings, but Season 2 is caunted by TLPE and KESPA too.
I just noticed they had it for Ro32, but not Ro64. So I guess Ro64 doesn't count? Kind of weird in the rules.
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United States3824 Posts
Meh it least it isn't flash and jaedong again
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On November 11 2008 06:32 Darth Peter wrote:
Oh come on,why does everyone forget that Jangbi lost to pleyers like hyvaa and Shine this month. Everybody always bitches about Jaedong losing to Sangho,and everybody forgets that Stork,Jangbi,Flash,they all lose some mediocre matches in PL or GOM Classic. It shouldn't mean a damn thing. Shit happens to everyone in the Proleague,and they can lose one match to a noob at this level. Perhaps Jaedong would beat Sangho 9-1 in a bo 10 series,and he just got that one game in the proleague. The only thing for Jaedong which really looks worse than Jangbi is that he's not in the MSL anymore. But look,Jaedong lost to the hot as hell Free,and Jangbi beat Memory and Yarnc. Now I don't want to take anything away from these players,but they are not as hot as Free. I think Jangbi is even too high as he is. If he beats Kal,continues to impress in PL and Gom,and somehow wins the MSL he definetely deserves top3. But I'm absolutely sure he won't. Even if he beats Kal by some miracle,Bisu or Free will just own him to the ground in the final. Samsung tosses did prove me wrong in my last predictions,but I cannot imagine Jangbi as MSL champion.
I completely agree. I guess I didn`t realise that Jangbi had easier opponents. Just go check his games this month, he didn`t play against any PR guys. + in the last month he was eliminated by light from the OSL. Well, he has to get some credit from the fact that he's in the semis, but then, what about fantasy ?. Oh well, I still like this PR
EDIT:On November 11 2008 08:19 OneOther wrote:
I was thinking that too, actually. I'll observe.
oh c`mon, that`s the thing about the PR. The writer has to talk with the complaining people and answer everybody's questions. That's what makes the PR so great! D:
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United States10774 Posts
On November 11 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 06:32 Darth Peter wrote:
Oh come on,why does everyone forget that Jangbi lost to pleyers like hyvaa and Shine this month. Everybody always bitches about Jaedong losing to Sangho,and everybody forgets that Stork,Jangbi,Flash,they all lose some mediocre matches in PL or GOM Classic. It shouldn't mean a damn thing. Shit happens to everyone in the Proleague,and they can lose one match to a noob at this level. Perhaps Jaedong would beat Sangho 9-1 in a bo 10 series,and he just got that one game in the proleague. The only thing for Jaedong which really looks worse than Jangbi is that he's not in the MSL anymore. But look,Jaedong lost to the hot as hell Free,and Jangbi beat Memory and Yarnc. Now I don't want to take anything away from these players,but they are not as hot as Free. I think Jangbi is even too high as he is. If he beats Kal,continues to impress in PL and Gom,and somehow wins the MSL he definetely deserves top3. But I'm absolutely sure he won't. Even if he beats Kal by some miracle,Bisu or Free will just own him to the ground in the final. Samsung tosses did prove me wrong in my last predictions,but I cannot imagine Jangbi as MSL champion. I completely agree. I guess I didn`t realise that Jangbi had easier opponents. Just go check his games this month, he didn`t play against any PR guys. + in the last month he was eliminated by light from the OSL. Well, he has to get some credit from the fact that he's in the semis, but then, what about fantasy ?. Oh well, I still like this PR EDIT: Show nested quote +On November 11 2008 08:19 OneOther wrote:
I was thinking that too, actually. I'll observe. oh c`mon, that`s the thing about the PR. The writer has to talk with the complaining people and answer everybody's questions. That's what makes the PR so great! D:
Haha I know, I will. I am just too busy today Tomorrow, though. I will be hammering you all down.
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OSL finals for Stork on not, Kal played pretty damn well in that series. This is not really disputable.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 11 2008 18:28 TarsTarkas wrote:
OSL finals for Stork on not, Kal played pretty damn well in that series. This is not really disputable.
I don't think anybody is denying that Kal played well. It's just about where to place more weight on.
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Where the hell is Luxury?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On November 11 2008 19:55 parkin wrote:
Where the hell is Luxury?
I dont remember well, but I dont think he qualified for either starleague. Winning the WCG and playing well in PL got him to the CNBC.
Imo Flash should be switched with Jangbi, Fantasy switeched with Kal, and Calm should be tenth instead of ForGG.
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On November 11 2008 22:40 3 Lions wrote:I dont remember well, but I dont think he qualified for either starleague. Winning the WCG and playing well in PL got him to the CNBC. Imo Flash should be switched with Jangbi, Fantasy switeched with Kal, and Calm should be tenth instead of ForGG.
I don't think much separates Flash and Jangbi, and between Fantasy and Kal. But there's no way Calm deserves top 10. Not after losing 2 games in a PL series and then losing to Bisu in GOM. Nothing wrong with losing to Bisu, but it doesn't help matters. ForGG's only problem is that Stork absolutely owns him. And they met in the MSL Ro16.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
I think we need a new TLPD picture of Jangbi. lol. He looks like a fat 5 year old in that picture.
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On November 12 2008 03:02 SilverskY wrote:
I think we need a new TLPD picture of Jangbi. lol. He looks like a fat 5 year old in that picture.
I agree - I see that picture, and begin to irrationally dislike him - even though I know what he actually looks like.
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Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now .
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United States17042 Posts
On November 12 2008 03:42 raga4ka wrote:
Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now .
Effort hasn't been playing in the individual leagues, which makes power ranking him tough.
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On November 12 2008 04:58 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2008 03:42 raga4ka wrote:
Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now . Effort hasn't been playing in the individual leagues, which makes power ranking him tough.
He beat Hwasin in the GSI Bo 3 last i check that was a league and he is showing some good play in PL to .
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United States10774 Posts
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On November 12 2008 09:36 OneOther wrote:
JANGBI FTW Random? 
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On November 12 2008 06:39 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2008 04:58 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:On November 12 2008 03:42 raga4ka wrote:
Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now . Effort hasn't been playing in the individual leagues, which makes power ranking him tough. He beat Hwasin in the GSI Bo 3 last i check that was a league and he is showing some good play in PL to .
Its not an individual league in the sense that MSL and OSL are, were you have to go trough qualifiers to enter, and worst case scenario the dreaded offline qualifiers where people sometimes gets stuck for season after season. And qualifying to the league is often as hard as getting far in it. (Take Savior for example, owning up the MSL several season but never able to qualify for OSL)
In GOM virtually everyone gets to enter. (Still a good job by effort getting this far)
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I'm so glad to see free on that list Up till now the MSL has been much more interesting with much better players than the OSL. Too bad it has to end with 4 protoss players I just hope Jangbi or free manage to win this now.
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On November 12 2008 20:32 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2008 06:39 raga4ka wrote:On November 12 2008 04:58 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:On November 12 2008 03:42 raga4ka wrote:
Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now . Effort hasn't been playing in the individual leagues, which makes power ranking him tough. He beat Hwasin in the GSI Bo 3 last i check that was a league and he is showing some good play in PL to . Its not an individual league in the sense that MSL and OSL are, were you have to go trough qualifiers to enter, and worst case scenario the dreaded offline qualifiers where people sometimes gets stuck for season after season. And qualifying to the league is often as hard as getting far in it. (Take Savior for example, owning up the MSL several season but never able to qualify for OSL) In GOM virtually everyone gets to enter. (Still a good job by effort getting this far)
well, effort had to win a lot of games to get this far. Although, I`m not saying he deserves a spot
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On November 12 2008 20:32 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2008 06:39 raga4ka wrote:On November 12 2008 04:58 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:On November 12 2008 03:42 raga4ka wrote:
Savior should be first on the CBNC list and maybe add Effort. I think people who are doing good in GOM at least should be in the CBNC . Other then that i think this is the most accurate PR right now . Effort hasn't been playing in the individual leagues, which makes power ranking him tough. He beat Hwasin in the GSI Bo 3 last i check that was a league and he is showing some good play in PL to . Its not an individual league in the sense that MSL and OSL are, were you have to go trough qualifiers to enter, and worst case scenario the dreaded offline qualifiers where people sometimes gets stuck for season after season.
that's nonsense, MSL and OSL have seeded players too, who don't have to go trough quilfires, GSI has it too, just in a different way, they go after the Kespa ranking, not after the previous achievemnts in the respectice SL. And actually that's a better scenario, cuz what's fun in a SL where 2-3 of the best players fail to qualify for some odd reason, and ppl like Light, GGplay, Rock, Backho reach the ro16/8/4 (no offence to their fans, but they arent at luxury/best/jd/savior/etc level who failed to reach several times the SLs). With the seeded position u still have to beat like 6 very good player to won the title, including 2 bo5.
And qualifying to the league is often as hard as getting far in it. (Take Savior for example, owning up the MSL several season but never able to qualify for OSL)
In GOM virtually everyone gets to enter. (Still a good job by effort getting this far)
In MSL/OSL virtually everyone gets to enter as well, the seeded players have to beat less players to win the titles, in GSI Kespa top32 has to beat less players to win the title. Difference? Sure, but it's a legitime league just as the other 2.
The quote tag doesnt works for me, sry about that, i dont know how to fix it
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remove the / from the first tag / go on the end (all are tha same way)
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Okay. Take back my comments on Jangbi. Even if Bisu/Free 3-0 him in the finals, he's still easily top 5 right now.
Damn, Samsung's tosses scarier than T1's right now.
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On November 13 2008 20:53 baubo wrote:
Okay. Take back my comments on Jangbi. Even if Bisu/Free 3-0 him in the finals, he's still easily top 5 right now.
Damn, Samsung's tosses scarier than T1's right now.
Right now ? Samsung tosses were always better in my opinion because of their TvP . When you look at their PvP and PvZ its about damn equal .
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A bad omen scares me. In the last two msl seasons,the man who eliminated Kal would actually win the title. That means... no,it can't be.
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I knew Kal didnt belong here, I told you oneother OVEERAATED
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On November 13 2008 20:59 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 20:53 baubo wrote:
Okay. Take back my comments on Jangbi. Even if Bisu/Free 3-0 him in the finals, he's still easily top 5 right now.
Damn, Samsung's tosses scarier than T1's right now. Right now ? Samsung tosses were always better in my opinion because of their TvP . When you look at their PvP and PvZ its about damn equal .
Jangbi was quite inconsistent until this season though. And Best/Bisu has been good together for a while now.
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On November 13 2008 21:26 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 20:59 raga4ka wrote:On November 13 2008 20:53 baubo wrote:
Okay. Take back my comments on Jangbi. Even if Bisu/Free 3-0 him in the finals, he's still easily top 5 right now.
Damn, Samsung's tosses scarier than T1's right now. Right now ? Samsung tosses were always better in my opinion because of their TvP . When you look at their PvP and PvZ its about damn equal . Jangbi was quite inconsistent until this season though. And Best/Bisu has been good together for a while now.
There's nothing wrong with SKT1 tosses pvt. Bisu is 5 win streak, Best on 7 win streak. Actually these 4 tosses are tearing apart every terran. Bisu's pvz is the best among the 4. PvP stork beated Best, now jangbi has to face Bisu (i mean if he advances in the finals). SKT and Khan remain the toss power houses, not a huge difference among the 2 pair.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 13 2008 21:12 malongo wrote:
I knew Kal didnt belong here, I told you oneother OVEERAATED
Overrated at #8 after beating Stork? What are you on? I put Kal as low as he could be.
Thank you Jangbi for justifying your #5 spot and thank you Kal for justifying your #8 spot, too.
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United States10774 Posts
Are you actually suggesting I should have put Kal lower than I did? Because if you are, you are just an idiot
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On November 13 2008 23:55 OneOther wrote:Are you actually suggesting I should have put Kal lower than I did? Because if you are, you are just an idiot
im suggesting that kal doesnt belong to PR, that he belongs to CBNC. because
a) He lost 0-2 to a mid level on OSL R36,
b) He is 4-4 on PL winning only to luxury on top players and losing to lesser players.
c) He didnt show a "powerfull" play on his R16 against Iris in fact was a bad serie
d) From stork vs forgg and fantasy vs stork series that were closer and much better overall i see that forgg and fantasy showed more power (aka they would have won against him)
e) From stork vs kal series i see that stork was playing to a 60% player because of schedule, making his win less valuable at least, and his "power" to be tested on a serie against a well prepared player.
f) From all his games (and ive watched most of leagues) I dont have seen good play, only standar builds and poor decision making.
g) Ive seen better play on other gamers (im not talking about winning because PR is not just about winnig) like pusan, calm, ggplay. For instance calm has a much better performance on PL and his games against bisu on gomtv where quite good, losing 1-2 to the best (this is not so arguably) pvz on earth.
Thats why i wouldnt have put him on PR this month, and i would have looked foward to check his gameplay on msl R8 and PL performance. I guess those subjetive points e, f, g are part of our experience has watcher and thats what we debate here.
On a side note you dont need to argue like a child, im not an idiot and i really like and appreciate your work and effort to answer most of the replys here.
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No, Kal definitely belongs in the power rank - and OneOther was right about where to put him.
You say that Stork was playing at 60% of his capacity against Kal? Did you watch those games? Stork played very well (stork-like, in fact). The problem was that he didn't have too many specific things prepared.
Kal's play was excellent in that series, you can't say that Stork lost - Kal won it. His play in that series alone could place him on the power rank of this month.
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Btw, if you look at lifetime highest on this powerrank, we would find Jangbi lowest with 5th, two with 4th as highest, one 3rd and one 2nd, and then 5 (five) people who at one time or another has held the top spot on the PR. IMO this shows that the competition on the PR is murderous right now, everyone on it is incredibly good.
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There are no players more deserving of a spot than Kal. After he beat Stork,I didn't want to put him on the PR either,but FBH played like an ass. Got eliminated by Bogus,lame in PL,and Bisu 3-0d him. Okay Bisu is the man,but even then FBH should have won at least one game. Luxury,Calm. They haven't accomplished anything to overtake Kal yet. Maybe next month,if Luxury is actually starting to win good matches amd if Calm beats Stork. And if the Destroyer beats Free,he definitely deserves a spot,if he can keep it up in the Proleague like this.
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1 Zerg 3 Terrans 6 Protoss
ALL HAIL AIUR
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On November 14 2008 04:10 Darth Peter wrote:
There are no players more deserving of a spot than Kal. After he beat Stork,I didn't want to put him on the PR either,but FBH played like an ass. Got eliminated by Bogus,lame in PL,and Bisu 3-0d him. Okay Bisu is the man,but even then FBH should have won at least one game. Luxury,Calm. They haven't accomplished anything to overtake Kal yet. Maybe next month,if Luxury is actually starting to win good matches amd if Calm beats Stork. And if the Destroyer beats Free,he definitely deserves a spot,if he can keep it up in the Proleague like this.
Sadly, that alone should probably not put him on the PR since Free is in all likelihood training almost only for the MSL semifinal the day before.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 14 2008 01:04 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 23:55 OneOther wrote:Are you actually suggesting I should have put Kal lower than I did? Because if you are, you are just an idiot im suggesting that kal doesnt belong to PR, that he belongs to CBNC. because a) He lost 0-2 to a mid level on OSL R36, b) He is 4-4 on PL winning only to luxury on top players and losing to lesser players. c) He didnt show a "powerfull" play on his R16 against Iris in fact was a bad serie d) From stork vs forgg and fantasy vs stork series that were closer and much better overall i see that forgg and fantasy showed more power (aka they would have won against him) e) From stork vs kal series i see that stork was playing to a 60% player because of schedule, making his win less valuable at least, and his "power" to be tested on a serie against a well prepared player. f) From all his games (and ive watched most of leagues) I dont have seen good play, only standar builds and poor decision making. g) Ive seen better play on other gamers (im not talking about winning because PR is not just about winnig) like pusan, calm, ggplay. For instance calm has a much better performance on PL and his games against bisu on gomtv where quite good, losing 1-2 to the best (this is not so arguably) pvz on earth. Thats why i wouldnt have put him on PR this month, and i would have looked foward to check his gameplay on msl R8 and PL performance. I guess those subjetive points e, f, g are part of our experience has watcher and thats what we debate here. On a side note you dont need to argue like a child, im not an idiot and i really like and appreciate your work and effort to answer most of the replys here.
I know Kal isn't great in PL, which is why I put him at the eighth spot. I cannot see pusan, calm or ggplay above Kal because after all, he beat tough players to reach the semifinals of MSL. You do realize his games vs jangbi didn't count towards this, right? Kal isn't _great_ but there is nobody who deserves his current spot more than he does.
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On November 14 2008 06:25 Boona wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2008 04:10 Darth Peter wrote:
There are no players more deserving of a spot than Kal. After he beat Stork,I didn't want to put him on the PR either,but FBH played like an ass. Got eliminated by Bogus,lame in PL,and Bisu 3-0d him. Okay Bisu is the man,but even then FBH should have won at least one game. Luxury,Calm. They haven't accomplished anything to overtake Kal yet. Maybe next month,if Luxury is actually starting to win good matches amd if Calm beats Stork. And if the Destroyer beats Free,he definitely deserves a spot,if he can keep it up in the Proleague like this.
Sadly, that alone should probably not put him on the PR since Free is in all likelihood training almost only for the MSL semifinal the day before.
oh yes it should
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On November 14 2008 02:37 TarsTarkas wrote:
No, Kal definitely belongs in the power rank - and OneOther was right about where to put him.
You say that Stork was playing at 60% of his capacity against Kal? Did you watch those games? Stork played very well (stork-like, in fact). The problem was that he didn't have too many specific things prepared.
Kal's play was excellent in that series, you can't say that Stork lost - Kal won it. His play in that series alone could place him on the power rank of this month.
I think your post his very poor, given that the discussion here is about overall performance and quality on a one month timeframe on 3 leagues and your only shouting kal 3-2 stork on msl. a) I watched the serie and rewatched to post here. b) Under my understanding of the game stork played very bad on games 1, and game 5, or at least on a very lesser level than he played against bisu, and best. He made unforced mistakes that ended in kal taking the advantage (wich kal capitalized) c) In games 1 and 3 kal tried plainly bad bos for a pvp R8 d) If a player dont prepare something "specific" for a game or group of games in a BOX series chances are he will be underplaying because he wont surprise his oponent nor prepare against his oponents surprises. That alone is like 15 % overall less play. e) Im not saying kal didnt play well but i think he played far from excellent f) If you go watch stork vs bisu and stork vs best and still dont think stork lost more than kal won, then maybe im stupid.
On November 14 2008 04:10 Darth Peter wrote:
There are no players more deserving of a spot than Kal. After he beat Stork,I didn't want to put him on the PR either,but FBH played like an ass. Got eliminated by Bogus,lame in PL,and Bisu 3-0d him. Okay Bisu is the man,but even then FBH should have won at least one game. Luxury,Calm. They haven't accomplished anything to overtake Kal yet. Maybe next month,if Luxury is actually starting to win good matches amd if Calm beats Stork. And if the Destroyer beats Free,he definitely deserves a spot,if he can keep it up in the Proleague like this.
Of course thats what im arguing, that some other players deserve that spot. ggplay and calm have accomplished this season as much as kal from what i see. ggplay got R4 on osl on a tougher path than kal, calm has a nice 7-2 PL record that i value has much as a R8 on any individual starleague. The last thing here is that even if you dont agree with these accomplishments, PR dont speaks of wins only but overall gameplay, and didnt saw a soo good overall play from kal in his games.
On November 14 2008 07:46 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2008 01:04 malongo wrote:On November 13 2008 23:55 OneOther wrote:Are you actually suggesting I should have put Kal lower than I did? Because if you are, you are just an idiot im suggesting that kal doesnt belong to PR, that he belongs to CBNC. because arguments I know Kal isn't great in PL, which is why I put him at the eighth spot. I cannot see pusan, calm or ggplay above Kal because after all, he beat tough players to reach the semifinals of MSL. You do realize his games vs jangbi didn't count towards this, right? Kal isn't _great_ but there is nobody who deserves his current spot more than he does.
I realize that those games dont count, and I realize that PR is not going to change no matter what for any month after released, im not an idiot. Kal was seeded on msl his full path was:
stork+ sea on group stages, Iris R16, stork R8. His games against Iris=> poor, could have gone 1-2 easily, and im my opinion fantasy, forgg and some other terran could have trampled him. Then stork, and i think i made this point clear up the to the fanboy. I pointed that "nobody else deserve this spot" up in this post too. I have only one question to you oneother If kal wouldnt have won the last game against stork, (hypothetically) would still kal be number 8? im not trying to prove nothing nor trash your PR. Thanks in advance for your answer.
PS this is probably my last post here I dont want to risk a ban for being "too argumentative and critical of staff in the PR threads"
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United States10774 Posts
this is all I am going to say->
stork/sea group stages, iris (who's been hot), and then stork in the ro8 is no matter what a deserving #8 spot player
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Calm is 7-4 now in proleague. He lost to Mind and Roro in the match against WeMade but somehow TL forgot to update that information. These games are not taken into account in his personal stats and his proleague record.
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On November 14 2008 09:13 malongo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 14 2008 02:37 TarsTarkas wrote:
No, Kal definitely belongs in the power rank - and OneOther was right about where to put him.
You say that Stork was playing at 60% of his capacity against Kal? Did you watch those games? Stork played very well (stork-like, in fact). The problem was that he didn't have too many specific things prepared.
Kal's play was excellent in that series, you can't say that Stork lost - Kal won it. His play in that series alone could place him on the power rank of this month. I think your post his very poor, given that the discussion here is about overall performance and quality on a one month timeframe on 3 leagues and your only shouting kal 3-2 stork on msl. a) I watched the serie and rewatched to post here. b) Under my understanding of the game stork played very bad on games 1, and game 5, or at least on a very lesser level than he played against bisu, and best. He made unforced mistakes that ended in kal taking the advantage (wich kal capitalized) c) In games 1 and 3 kal tried plainly bad bos for a pvp R8 d) If a player dont prepare something "specific" for a game or group of games in a BOX series chances are he will be underplaying because he wont surprise his oponent nor prepare against his oponents surprises. That alone is like 15 % overall less play. e) Im not saying kal didnt play well but i think he played far from excellent f) If you go watch stork vs bisu and stork vs best and still dont think stork lost more than kal won, then maybe im stupid. On November 14 2008 04:10 Darth Peter wrote:
There are no players more deserving of a spot than Kal. After he beat Stork,I didn't want to put him on the PR either,but FBH played like an ass. Got eliminated by Bogus,lame in PL,and Bisu 3-0d him. Okay Bisu is the man,but even then FBH should have won at least one game. Luxury,Calm. They haven't accomplished anything to overtake Kal yet. Maybe next month,if Luxury is actually starting to win good matches amd if Calm beats Stork. And if the Destroyer beats Free,he definitely deserves a spot,if he can keep it up in the Proleague like this.
Of course thats what im arguing, that some other players deserve that spot. ggplay and calm have accomplished this season as much as kal from what i see. ggplay got R4 on osl on a tougher path than kal, calm has a nice 7-2 PL record that i value has much as a R8 on any individual starleague. The last thing here is that even if you dont agree with these accomplishments, PR dont speaks of wins only but overall gameplay, and didnt saw a soo good overall play from kal in his games. On November 14 2008 07:46 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2008 01:04 malongo wrote:On November 13 2008 23:55 OneOther wrote:Are you actually suggesting I should have put Kal lower than I did? Because if you are, you are just an idiot im suggesting that kal doesnt belong to PR, that he belongs to CBNC. because arguments I know Kal isn't great in PL, which is why I put him at the eighth spot. I cannot see pusan, calm or ggplay above Kal because after all, he beat tough players to reach the semifinals of MSL. You do realize his games vs jangbi didn't count towards this, right? Kal isn't _great_ but there is nobody who deserves his current spot more than he does. I realize that those games dont count, and I realize that PR is not going to change no matter what for any month after released, im not an idiot. Kal was seeded on msl his full path was: stork+ sea on group stages, Iris R16, stork R8. His games against Iris=> poor, could have gone 1-2 easily, and im my opinion fantasy, forgg and some other terran could have trampled him. Then stork, and i think i made this point clear up the to the fanboy. I pointed that "nobody else deserve this spot" up in this post too. I have only one question to you oneother If kal wouldnt have won the last game against stork, (hypothetically) would still kal be number 8? im not trying to prove nothing nor trash your PR. Thanks in advance for your answer. PS this is probably my last post here I dont want to risk a ban for being "too argumentative and critical of staff in the PR threads"
Kal also beat Stork in the groups + GGplay`s path in the OSL was waaaaaay easier. How can u say that he met stronger opponents ?! He only meet Flash, and Flash wasn`t in his best form right there, and we all know what happened on plasma. Check out TLPD, he defeated  BestGod, and then Rock and  Light. I mean c`mon Sea>all of them.
Oh and relax, ur not goin to be banned. Please continue to post. If ur posts are presented in a mannered way, you`ll not get banned
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United States17042 Posts
On November 14 2008 11:08 Lebesgue wrote:
Calm is 7-4 now in proleague. He lost to Mind and Roro in the match against WeMade but somehow TL forgot to update that information. These games are not taken into account in his personal stats and his proleague record.
They're probably just late, The data usually gets updated (latest) as the vods get posted on nevake's youtube channel.
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Does this mean Bisu, Jaedong, Jangbi and Kal are not in clans?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>->->->->->
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oh yes they are: Bisu[shield], n_die_Jaedong, Dream.t)Jangbi, and I can`t remember Kal's )
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United States10774 Posts
By.Goojila, I am pretty sure.
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United States10774 Posts
Siz) changed to By. long time ago
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank
uh no
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On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:uh no Um...yes.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote: Um...yes.
No, because Stork is the best player right now.
Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's.
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On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL...
And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo.
That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None.
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Stork must be really lame this month to lose his no1 spot. He must be eliminated from Gom and must suck at PL really hard,because nobody did ever lose the no1 spot because of his lack of games. Stork doesn't have enough games this month because he was busy last month. But that is also truth to Jangbi, if he beats Bisu,that's not enough for him to take no2. Bisu must suck,and Jangbi must win all his PL matches. But that won't come into consideration because Bisu will rape the shit out of him.
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On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot.
Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work.
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This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first.
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Isn't it a bit early to make next month's, I mean, there's still half the month left. Even if another Starleague is ending, even if Bisu absolute rapes Jangbi in the finals, I think Stork will still be first.
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On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first.
Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp
Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt
Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz
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United States13896 Posts
On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz
Since when does Bisu's PvP = Stork's PvP? They're close, but I don't see how a legitimate argument can be made for Bisu being equal to or better.
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9070 Posts
Lets not jinx the Revolutionist shall we. First things first, winning the MSL, then making conclusions about the status of both Bisu and Stork
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work.
I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz
I disagree.
Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP
Stork's PvT>>Bisu's PvT
Bisu's PvZ>>Stork's PvZ
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i'm a huge bisu fan but he pretty much either needs to beat stork or maybe best in a series or crush a top tvp like flash or forgg before he can be ranked above stork. unless stork starts playing worse, of course.
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no slight against you oneother, but you're just not fake steve.
steeeevvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
come baaaaacccckkkkk
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If Bisu vs. Jangbi is absolutly dominanted by Bisu, and Stork screws up in GOM aganinst a no-name (and that isn't a Jaedong vs Han thing I mean losing to a no name that didn't play above his level) or a few PL games (read at least 2 no matter how bad any given game is), than I think Bisu can be ranked above Stork.
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On November 16 2008 10:24 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz I disagree. Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>>Bisu's PvT Bisu's PvZ>>Stork's PvZ
You think Stork's PvT is tons better than Bisu's? While I agree that Stork is probably better PvT than Bisu, I don't think its by a large margin. Stork beat Fantasy 3-2 in a close series, and Fantasy hasn't been doing too well recently. Bisu on the other hand ass raped FBH and Hwasin, and FBH at least has seemed to be good at TvP recently.
I'd say its more like
Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP
Stork's PvT>Bisu's PvT
Bisu' PvZ>>Stork's PvZ
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On November 16 2008 10:23 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work. I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL.
You're so annoying to argue against but that's because you're so good.
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On November 16 2008 10:23 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work. I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL. Not really an adequate response considering the Bisu VS Jangbi final will be concluded within this month, and therefore give us a good indication of Bisu's skill level in relation to Storks- and I think it will be a positive one. I leave a room for error however. Jangbi is fully capable of defeating Bisu, Stork is fully capable of defeating his opponents in GOM and PL in stellar fashion. However, it is equally plausible that Bisu will roll over Jangbi, and stork could under perform comparatively. It is you, not I, that has baseless claims [as of yet] on Storks skill compared to the #2.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 14:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 10:23 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work. I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL. Not really an adequate response considering the Bisu VS Jangbi final will be concluded within this month, and therefore give us a good indication of Bisu's skill level in relation to Storks- and I think it will be a positive one. I leave a room for error however. Jangbi is fully capable of defeating Bisu, Stork is fully capable of defeating his opponents in GOM and PL in stellar fashion. However, it is equally plausible that Bisu will roll over Jangbi, and stork could under perform comparatively. It is you, not I, that has baseless claims [as of yet] on Storks skill compared to the #2.
Wait what? My point is even if Bisu beats Jangbi, Stork can secure his #1 spot by playing well in GOM and PL. All this month.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 14:22 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 10:24 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz I disagree. Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>>Bisu's PvT Bisu's PvZ>>Stork's PvZ You think Stork's PvT is tons better than Bisu's? While I agree that Stork is probably better PvT than Bisu, I don't think its by a large margin. Stork beat Fantasy 3-2 in a close series, and Fantasy hasn't been doing too well recently. Bisu on the other hand ass raped FBH and Hwasin, and FBH at least has seemed to be good at TvP recently. I'd say its more like Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>Bisu's PvT Bisu' PvZ>>Stork's PvZ
Haha, fair enough I guess.
On November 16 2008 12:58 Mora wrote:
no slight against you oneother, but you're just not fake steve.
steeeevvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
come baaaaacccckkkkk
lol uhhh ;o
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2008 14:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 10:23 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work. I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL. You're so annoying to argue against but that's because you're so good.
It feels like I argue with you pretty damn often :p
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On November 16 2008 14:56 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 14:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 16 2008 10:23 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 08:13 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 07:04 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:38 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 06:30 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 06:06 Dazed_Spy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu number 1 on power rank uh no Um...yes. No, because Stork is the best player right now. Bisu can only come even close to being #1 if he beats Jangbi, which won't be an easy task. If he does win MSL, Stork is still at the top because his path to OSL was harder than Bisu's. He's going to win the MSL, and obviously my statement was meant only under that condition. Beyond that, what? Storks OSL was not this month. Storks OSL was last month. Who looks better this month? So far Bisu is advancing all across the boards and Stork has played a single PL game against a more than washed up terran. Stork and Bisu are very, very close. Stork can not live on past glories if he wants to-legitimately- retain his position. Yes, even if the past glory was a month ago. Stork better get going on GOM and PL... And btw, FS, just out and say it; are you coming back to the PR, or is oneother "helping you out" indefinitely? Retire or set a rough date, stop this limbo. That''s not how Power Ranking works. Stork won the OSL against very strong opponents - Bisu himself, BeSt, FanTasy, and will not be penalized for not playing. If Bisu wins, he will be right below Stork, same goes to JangBi. A player has never been taken down from the top spot because he didn't play, especially after winning OSL. Again, the ranking is not based purely on _this_ month, it's an accumulation of what happened on the previous ranking and how they met up this month. Not only does OSL title mean the actual prize, it also showed Stork is the best player right now. It will certainly be taken into account. As long as Stork performs pretty well in GOM and PL, there's absolutely no reason to put him below Bisu. None. OSL does not mean he is the best player. Nada won the OSL years back and did not even take 2nd spot. So in fact, did GGplay. A player is not penalized for not playing, but when he plays very little opponents, all of low to mid quality, and another player who, already last month was near equal with the #1 [stork], has exploded and dominated the scene, it is pretty damn obvious who takes the first spot. Power ranks are to determine the best player. If storks play this month does not show he is the best player this month, then he does not get the top slot. Thats how the power rank does work. I am essentially using your technique of assumptions: Stork will do well in GOM and PL. You're so annoying to argue against but that's because you're so good. It feels like I argue with you pretty damn often :p
We're on at the same times and usually its late for one of us=arguing.
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On November 16 2008 14:22 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 10:24 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz I disagree. Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>>Bisu's PvT Bisu's PvZ>>Stork's PvZ You think Stork's PvT is tons better than Bisu's? While I agree that Stork is probably better PvT than Bisu, I don't think its by a large margin. Stork beat Fantasy 3-2 in a close series, and Fantasy hasn't been doing too well recently. Bisu on the other hand ass raped FBH and Hwasin, and FBH at least has seemed to be good at TvP recently. I'd say its more like Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>Bisu's PvT Bisu' PvZ>>Stork's PvZ
You do realize that Stork hasn't lost a series, a group game, or a PL game to a terran for the past 5 month, right?
The fact that Fantasy got 2 games off of him due to the finals-factor and having an extra week to prepare with Oov doesn't change the fact. Stork can roll out of the bed and just own pretty much any terran(perhaps except Flash) out there. Bisu's PvT is not comparable. It's very good, but it's not at the God level that Stork is right now.
That said, the OSL curse could very well set in quickly for Stork and he would quickly lose the oh-so-coveted TL.net Power Rank #1.
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Okay,so Stork isn't no1 because he won the Osl,he is no1 because he did it by dominating three people ranked on the PR and playing well in all of the leagues. When July for example won it,he didn't get no1 spot because he played rock,backho and Best,all terrible P v Zers,and July showed really good play only against Best,and that time,the MSL was so much stronger with Flash,Jaedong,ForGG. The only way Bisu could be higher than Stork if Stork would have won the OSL by beating pepe,Violet,Dongrae in the ro 8,semis and finals,and would'nt have beaten Bisu,and even then only by choking in Proleague games. but he doesn't choke in the Proleague. And yeah,it is really early to discuss next months PR. Last month,the Stork Best match was like in the 21th day,and it was said that whoever wins will most likely be the no1,and in 10 days Best eventually fallen down to 7th. Time can do that much.
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On November 16 2008 17:10 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 14:22 Sentenal wrote:On November 16 2008 10:24 OneOther wrote:On November 16 2008 09:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 16 2008 08:22 TarsTarkas wrote:
This is how I see it:
Stork and Bisu >> pretty much everyone
Stork would also be a slight favorite over Bisu.
Therefore, Stork should retain his number 1 spot.
OSL:
Stork > Bisu, Best, Fantasy
MSL:
Bisu > Hwasin, Firebathero, Free
Of those players, only Free approaches the caliber of Stork's opponents. Both Bisu and Stork have been straight up dominating their opponents when they win, and neither of them loose. I can't really see any reason to take Stork down just because his awesomeness is hidden by the OSL ending first. Bisu's pvp=Storks pvp Storks pvt> Bisu's pvt Bisu's pvz>>>>>>>>>>> storks pvz I disagree. Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>>Bisu's PvT Bisu's PvZ>>Stork's PvZ You think Stork's PvT is tons better than Bisu's? While I agree that Stork is probably better PvT than Bisu, I don't think its by a large margin. Stork beat Fantasy 3-2 in a close series, and Fantasy hasn't been doing too well recently. Bisu on the other hand ass raped FBH and Hwasin, and FBH at least has seemed to be good at TvP recently. I'd say its more like Stork's PvP>Bisu's PvP Stork's PvT>Bisu's PvT Bisu' PvZ>>Stork's PvZ You do realize that Stork hasn't lost a series, a group game, or a PL game to a terran for the past 5 month, right? The fact that Fantasy got 2 games off of him due to the finals-factor and having an extra week to prepare with Oov doesn't change the fact. Stork can roll out of the bed and just own pretty much any terran(perhaps except Flash) out there. Bisu's PvT is not comparable. It's very good, but it's not at the God level that Stork is right now. That said, the OSL curse could very well set in quickly for Stork and he would quickly lose the oh-so-coveted TL.net Power Rank #1.
K, Stork hasn't lost a series to a Terran in 5 months. Stork is very good PvT, I agree. Lets just look at recent history, though. Stork did drop 2 games to Fantasy, and 1 game to ForGG. Bisu hasn't dropped a single game to a Terran since FBH in MSL groups, and that was only 1 game. And before that it was Flash in OSL's group stage, which was even longer ago. One could argue that ForGG and Fantasy are both better players than FBH and Hwasin, which I would agree with. But then you look at how much those series were won by, and the gap narrows. Stork beat ForGG 2-1, and beat Fantasy 3-2. Bisu took Hwasin and FBH to school, going 2-0 and 3-0 respectively.
Stork's PvT is better, I won't argue that. I like Stork, hes my second favorite currently active Protoss right now. But I won't deny that Bisu is playing excellently as well, and his PvT isn't very far behind Stork's.
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United States10774 Posts
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What is the point of looking at statistics which were several month earlier. Yes,P v T WAS Bisu's achilles heel,and it was a good MU for Stork always. But Bisu looked great in the last P v T's. He didn't beat a good terran,that's through. But I think it's on the same level as Stork's P v Z,you can't tell what he's capable of against better players yet,so I don't think that you can say Stor P v T>>>> and Bisu's P v Z>>>>>. Bisu lost to Flash two months ago,and after that he exploded. Perhaps he would beat ForGG and Flash now. You can't tell that Bisu's P v T is not top notch right now.
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United States10774 Posts
Ugh Stork and Bisu are both amazing. But Stork's still the ownage
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There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
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United States10774 Posts
Look, I didn't post those stats to say anything new. And there is a point in looking at them - my point is that Stork has always been better and more consistent at PvT than Bisu. Bisu has improved his PvT, but Stork is still superior in PvP and PvT, by a pretty big margin in PvT.
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On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it.
I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has.
If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history).
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Enough with Bisu the PvT god already. He beats an always-weak-in-tvp FBH and a decent Hwasin, who he always beats and has a mental edge over and that's it. It's just like Best beating an always-weak-in-zvp Luxury and suddenly he's the favorite against July, LOL. Give it up.
Bisu currently doesn't qualify for #1 because the #1 has already decisively beaten him, and he's not gonna play against and defeat Stork in PvP any time soon.
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On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history).
The main reason why I think Bisu's PvZ >> Stork's PvZ, is because Stork really hasn't been tested at all in that MU recently, unless you count WCG. Its not really the same thing with Bisu's PvT, which he has been tested in recently. To be honest, I haven't watched Stork's recent PvZs, but I don't think you can say Stork's 2-1 win over Orion in GOM puts Stork's PvZ on the same level as Bisu's 3-0 of FBH and 2-0 of Hwasin.
And just for the record, I agree that Stork should stay #1 with Bisu at #2, provided they keep playing how they both have been playing. There isn't any reason for Stork to fall on the ranks if he hasn't played as much. He is the best player in the world right now. I just think people are trying to push him to another level, as if Stork is somehow so incompariable to any other player, that Stork is somehow an invincible God, while the players who have also been playing excellently recently don't measure up at all.
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Are you seriously counting Hwasin and FBH as "tested" series? The only guy who has been even more of a Protoss' bitch than FBH has been Hwasin. The guy just rolls over when facing protosses.
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Lecaf's players aren`t doin` very well lately
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On November 16 2008 20:32 baubo wrote:
Are you seriously counting Hwasin and FBH as "tested" series? The only guy who has been even more of a Protoss' bitch than FBH has been Hwasin. The guy just rolls over when facing protosses.
I don't know they are pretty close . I think FBH sucks more because he gets humiliated more :D .
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On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history).
Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke .
On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much .
All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players .
The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot .
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Oneother just won his game
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Chill for PR # 1
OneOther, you will have to settle for a lower spot.
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United States10774 Posts
I am happy with Bisu's place I fucked up my second attack soooo badly
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yeah, you pretty much did (if I remember correctly, the Arbiter didn't have enough energy? I might be thinking of the wrong attack though)
Still, you won!! No fail icon! :D
(and would beat the crap out of my ZvP, which is terrible)
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United States10774 Posts
yeah i attacked when my arbiter had 93 energy and forgot to drop my templars -_-
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Jaedong's dropping to around 8th next month, I'm guessing.
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United States13896 Posts
On November 17 2008 13:08 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Jaedong's dropping to around 8th next month, I'm guessing.
Any reasoning behind this? He's 4-1 this month and if he wins his Classic games while keeping up a solid record in PL, why should he drop that far? If he does those things, I could see JangBi passing him, but no one else really. Maybe there's an argument for Flash to pass him, but that's it. The farthest I could possibly see him falling is to 6th, barring anything unfortunate happening against Tempest.
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On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot .
I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz.
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On November 17 2008 15:44 []p4NDemik[] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 13:08 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Jaedong's dropping to around 8th next month, I'm guessing. Any reasoning behind this? He's 4-1 this month and if he wins his Classic games while keeping up a solid record in PL, why should he drop that far? If he does those things, I could see JangBi passing him, but no one else really. Maybe there's an argument for Flash to pass him, but that's it. The farthest I could possibly see him falling is to 6th, barring anything unfortunate happening against Tempest.
Nothing against Jaedong, it's just that a lot of people (looking at the protosses) have been performing more solidly than he has been. I'm a Jaedong fanboy, and your post gives me renewed hope. I guess there can be the argument that Flash took FOREVER to drop after he started playing crappily.
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On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz.
only time i ever saw bisu outplayed was vs jaedong on blue storm and jaedong won by the slimmest of margins. it was a sick game, bisu was pretty soundly ahead until jaedong doom dropped with his whole army right as bisu moved out, forcing bisu back so jaedong could pump drones and make up economy.
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On November 17 2008 16:32 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. only time i ever saw bisu outplayed was vs jaedong on blue storm and jaedong won by the slimmest of margins. it was a sick game, bisu was pretty soundly ahead until jaedong doom dropped with his whole army right as bisu moved out, forcing bisu back so jaedong could pump drones and make up economy.
He also got pretty badly outplayed in the group stages of the Arena MSL in both the First Set and Final Set vs Jaedong. But that was during his "recession" and Jaedong's ZvP tear.
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On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz.
How about this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9299_Bisu_vs_ZerO/vod Or do you count that as sick play from the zerg? I'm sure there are like 10 other games just like that one.
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On November 17 2008 20:49 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. How about this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9299_Bisu_vs_ZerO/vod Or do you count that as sick play from the zerg? I'm sure there are like 10 other games just like that one.
don't start posting games where Bisu played bad. He was and is the best PvZ ever, he dethroned a bonjwa zerg. No protoss can say this about himself.
dropping few games, dropping few stupid games, well, it happens
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On November 17 2008 22:24 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 20:49 Fwmeh wrote:On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. How about this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9299_Bisu_vs_ZerO/vod Or do you count that as sick play from the zerg? I'm sure there are like 10 other games just like that one. don't start posting games where Bisu played bad. He was and is the best PvZ ever, he dethroned a bonjwa zerg. No protoss can say these about himself. dropping few games, dropping few stupid games, well, it happens
The argument was that " In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad." That is what I disagreed with, not that Bizu has the best PvZ in the world. And since there has only been one bonjwa zerg, well...
I really think that a persons strength is a matchup should be judged more from his best plays than from his consistency. That is why I hold GGPlay's ZvT in very high regard, even though he is barely over 50% in the MU. And I think that Stork's PvZ has some structural weakness in it, mainly his ingame adaption, which is preventing him from elevating it to S-class, even though he has good stats, and has taken games from all the best zergs.
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On November 17 2008 22:57 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 22:24 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 17 2008 20:49 Fwmeh wrote:On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. How about this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9299_Bisu_vs_ZerO/vod Or do you count that as sick play from the zerg? I'm sure there are like 10 other games just like that one. don't start posting games where Bisu played bad. He was and is the best PvZ ever, he dethroned a bonjwa zerg. No protoss can say these about himself. dropping few games, dropping few stupid games, well, it happens The argument was that " In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad." That is what I disagreed with, not that Bizu has the best PvZ in the world. And since there has only been one bonjwa zerg, well... I really think that a persons strength is a matchup should be judged more from his best plays than from his consistency. That is why I hold GGPlay's ZvT in very high regard, even though he is barely over 50% in the MU. And I think that Stork's PvZ has some structural weakness in it, mainly his ingame adaption, which is preventing him from elevating it to S-class, even though he has good stats, and has taken games from all the best zergs. July was a Bonjwa so..wtf..
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Most people say otherwise.
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United States10774 Posts
July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr
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great powerrank
first time i agreed with everything
and its true
july was not a bonjwa
he was very good, he stopped iloveoov but he never really reached the point of dominance in which everyone was scared to face him like oov or savior or even flash/jaedong
although he did come back to win the golden mouse which was awesome to watch
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On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot .
nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats!
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United States10774 Posts
On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats!
What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be...
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Stork's PvZ is about to be tested tonight (results will not be conclusive).
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On November 18 2008 16:30 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Stork's PvZ is about to be tested tonight (results will not be conclusive).
eh, even if he wins antifans and other fans will argue calm is "Inconsistent" (despite the fact he isn't)
edit: Calm, Not Clam
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Valhalla18444 Posts
calm goes 3hatch ling every other game
stork still does not have the game sense necessary to stuff dumb shit like that down the zerg's throat
there are still holes in his PvZ despite how consistantly he wins in the matchup
however, he hasn't had to play a zerg in a bo5 in a long time, and its not like a zerg can go 3hatch ling every game in a bo5 and expect to beat him. he's not stupid, after all
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 18 2008 18:21 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 16:30 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Stork's PvZ is about to be tested tonight (results will not be conclusive). eh, even if he wins antifans and other fans will argue calm is "Inconsistent" (despite the fact he isn't) edit: Calm, Not Clam
maybe i'll change the TLPD entry and see how long it takes someone to notice
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Hi, Fakesteve, ahvent see you for a week at least or more
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On November 18 2008 15:01 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats! What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be...
it was a joke...remember what happened to Jared ?
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THE REVOLUTION!!!
friggin bisu build man.... bisu build...
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United States10774 Posts
On November 19 2008 06:20 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 15:01 OneOther wrote:On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats! What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be... it was a joke...remember what happened to Jared ?
You do know I raped my opponent in the showmatch, right?
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On November 19 2008 08:44 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2008 06:20 Jaeden wrote:On November 18 2008 15:01 OneOther wrote:On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats! What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be... it was a joke...remember what happened to Jared ? You do know I raped my opponent in the showmatch, right?
`course, that`s why i congratulate you for it! I was just jokin` about the fact that IF u had lost, u wouldn`t be on the staff anymore ... ohh nevermind
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On November 19 2008 08:44 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2008 06:20 Jaeden wrote:On November 18 2008 15:01 OneOther wrote:On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats! What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be... it was a joke...remember what happened to Jared ? You do know I raped my opponent in the showmatch, right?
I just played deus_073, that game was maybe my toughest victory untill now, i'm really proud i could beat him, so i can appreciate even more that Oneother beat him quite convincingly
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United States10774 Posts
On November 19 2008 21:44 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2008 08:44 OneOther wrote:On November 19 2008 06:20 Jaeden wrote:On November 18 2008 15:01 OneOther wrote:On November 18 2008 14:23 Jaeden wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . nice post , oh and yeah, U are still on the staff, OneOther, congrats! What do you mean? Why wouldn't I be... it was a joke...remember what happened to Jared ? You do know I raped my opponent in the showmatch, right? I just played deus_073, that game was my toughest victory untill now, i'm really proud i could beat him, so i can appreciate even more that Oneother beat him quite convincingly
You mean raped him for 30 minutes except the 4 minutes I needed to recover after the terrible attack? Thanks Geo.Rion hahaha
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On November 17 2008 20:49 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. How about this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9299_Bisu_vs_ZerO/vod Or do you count that as sick play from the zerg? I'm sure there are like 10 other games just like that one.
This was when Bisu's hand/wrist was injured, it its not fair to judge him based on this game.
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On November 19 2008 01:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 18:21 MrHoon wrote:On November 18 2008 16:30 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Stork's PvZ is about to be tested tonight (results will not be conclusive). eh, even if he wins antifans and other fans will argue calm is "Inconsistent" (despite the fact he isn't) edit: Calm, Not Clam maybe i'll change the TLPD entry and see how long it takes someone to notice
I already write this all the time...
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On November 18 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr
Bisu was Bonjwa for a while there...
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 06:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr Bisu was Bonjwa for a while there...
lol you can't be a bonjwa for a while. you are either one or you are not.
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On November 22 2008 09:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 06:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On November 18 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr Bisu was Bonjwa for a while there... lol you can't be a bonjwa for a while. you are either one or you are not.
no lol
None of the ones you listed are bonjwas anymore.
Bisu was best for a long time and was classed the bonjwa for that time.
I'll admit jaedong and flash wasnt dominant long enough or alone enough to be classed bonjwas though.
don't lol away this one mr.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 11:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 09:12 OneOther wrote:On November 22 2008 06:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On November 18 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr Bisu was Bonjwa for a while there... lol you can't be a bonjwa for a while. you are either one or you are not. no lol None of the ones you listed are bonjwas anymore. Bisu was best for a long time and was classed the bonjwa for that time. I'll admit jaedong and flash wasnt dominant long enough or alone enough to be classed bonjwas though. don't lol away this one mr.
lol?
you are an idiot. go learn what bonjwa means before you come talk here.
you are fighting a losing battle here bud
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United States10774 Posts
actually i feel bad for you so i'll just tell what you what it means
bonjwa = the legends, the best of the bests in the history
hence, savior/nada/boxer/oov are the four bonjwas. forever.
they can never lose their status...meaning you can't be bonjwa for a while and not be one anymore.
(bisu isn't a bonjwa, because he doesn't fit in with the ones i listed. at least not yet.)
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On November 22 2008 12:09 OneOther wrote:
actually i feel bad for you so i'll just tell what you what it means
bonjwa = the legends, the best of the bests in the history
hence, savior/nada/boxer/oov are the four bonjwas. forever.
they can never lose their status...meaning you can't be bonjwa for a while and not be one anymore.
(bisu isn't a bonjwa, because he doesn't fit in with the ones i listed. at least not yet.)
K, i thought bonjwa meant The Best, the one to beat...
Then i take it back. I thought i knew what bonjwa meant since i read the explenation numerous times here on TL.net.
If it means the legends, then i guess Bisu doesnt really count.
Although i think bisu, jaedong and flash might be refered to as Bonjwas in a near future.
Also dont call me an idiot, coz i thought i knew a korean word that i didn't. Doesnt really make me an idiot does it?
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I always thought Boxer wasn't dominant enough at his time to be considered a bonjwa?
Besides, he deserves a better title! How dare you degrade his name with an unworthy label as "Bonjwa"! Only The Emperor suits him  .
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On November 22 2008 12:16 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 12:09 OneOther wrote:
actually i feel bad for you so i'll just tell what you what it means
bonjwa = the legends, the best of the bests in the history
hence, savior/nada/boxer/oov are the four bonjwas. forever.
they can never lose their status...meaning you can't be bonjwa for a while and not be one anymore.
(bisu isn't a bonjwa, because he doesn't fit in with the ones i listed. at least not yet.)
K, i thought bonjwa meant The Best, the one to beat... Then i take it back. I thought i knew what bonjwa meant since i read the explenation numerous times here on TL.net. If it means the legends, then i guess Bisu doesnt really count. Also dont call me an idiot. Atleast i admit when i'm wrong.
well how can you not admit it lol
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On November 22 2008 12:22 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 12:16 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On November 22 2008 12:09 OneOther wrote:
actually i feel bad for you so i'll just tell what you what it means
bonjwa = the legends, the best of the bests in the history
hence, savior/nada/boxer/oov are the four bonjwas. forever.
they can never lose their status...meaning you can't be bonjwa for a while and not be one anymore.
(bisu isn't a bonjwa, because he doesn't fit in with the ones i listed. at least not yet.)
K, i thought bonjwa meant The Best, the one to beat... Then i take it back. I thought i knew what bonjwa meant since i read the explenation numerous times here on TL.net. If it means the legends, then i guess Bisu doesnt really count. Also dont call me an idiot. Atleast i admit when i'm wrong. well how can you not admit it lol
still calling me an idiot for not knowing a korean word is pretty uncalled for..
bonjwa word is also pretty biased right? so some people might say jaedong and bisu are also bonjwas? if not, i still dont really get that word.
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United States10774 Posts
i called you an idiot not because you didn't know what the korean word meant, but because you tried to argue when you don't even know what it means
On November 22 2008 11:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 09:12 OneOther wrote:On November 22 2008 06:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On November 18 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:July is not a bonjwa. Bonjwas are Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr Bisu was Bonjwa for a while there... lol you can't be a bonjwa for a while. you are either one or you are not. no lol None of the ones you listed are bonjwas anymore. Bisu was best for a long time and was classed the bonjwa for that time. I'll admit jaedong and flash wasnt dominant long enough or alone enough to be classed bonjwas though. don't lol away this one mr.
you sure sound like you know what you are talking about there
didn't want to lol away that one, you know
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On November 22 2008 12:24 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 12:22 OneOther wrote:On November 22 2008 12:16 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On November 22 2008 12:09 OneOther wrote:
actually i feel bad for you so i'll just tell what you what it means
bonjwa = the legends, the best of the bests in the history
hence, savior/nada/boxer/oov are the four bonjwas. forever.
they can never lose their status...meaning you can't be bonjwa for a while and not be one anymore.
(bisu isn't a bonjwa, because he doesn't fit in with the ones i listed. at least not yet.)
K, i thought bonjwa meant The Best, the one to beat... Then i take it back. I thought i knew what bonjwa meant since i read the explenation numerous times here on TL.net. If it means the legends, then i guess Bisu doesnt really count. Also dont call me an idiot. Atleast i admit when i'm wrong. well how can you not admit it lol still calling me an idiot for not knowing a korean word is pretty uncalled for.. bonjwa word is also pretty biased right? so some people might say jaedong and bisu are also bonjwas? if not, i still dont really get that word.
there's a consensus that bonjwas are savior/nada/oov/boxer
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Yes because i thought i knew what i was talking about. I really thought i knew it.
I read numerous times here @ tl.net what the word meant. Fine, i was wrong.. embarrasing, but still.
I always heard the word with a "the" before.
The bonjaw..
bla bla is the bonjwa.
not bla bla is a bonjwa...
thats why. Anyway, lets drop it. I agree to the powerrank however at the time i'd put flash above jaedong and jangbi. Jangbi doing great now though so its getting better :O
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Yo, If Stork continues to drop proleague games like he did against STX, and Bisu finally
enters Baller mode (winning MSL, ballerizing proleague scrublettes, etc.), will Bisu have a
shot at his rightful #1 throne again?
!
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On November 22 2008 12:44 p4fn2w wrote:Yo, If Stork continues to drop proleague games like he did against STX, and Bisu finally enters Baller mode (winning MSL, ballerizing proleague scrublettes, etc.), will Bisu have a shot at his rightful #1 throne again? ! No.
Why?
Bottom right of One Others sig.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 12:44 p4fn2w wrote:Yo, If Stork continues to drop proleague games like he did against STX, and Bisu finally enters Baller mode (winning MSL, ballerizing proleague scrublettes, etc.), will Bisu have a shot at his rightful #1 throne again? !
actually, yes he does
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I think there's no doubt that Bisu should be #1 in dec.
+ Show Spoiler + PvP was considered to be his "weak" mu... look what he did to Jangbi this morning. Bisu was kind of unlucky in the first game, I still think it could have been 3-0
And Bisu is a bonjwa imo. + Show Spoiler + 3 MSL titles, another MSL final, two special league titles, 3rd spot in OSL, sky proleague title in 2007, most successful protoss of all time, best PvZ of all time, former Kespa #1 several times; probably 2nd most innovative player of all time...(well not everyone will agree with that)
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United States10774 Posts
PvP was considered to be his "weak" mu... look what he did to Jangbi this morning. Bisu was kind of unlucky in the first game, I still think it could have been 3-0
are you kidding me? jangbi was definitely the unlucky one in this series. i give credit to bisu for playing amazingly, but come on...give me a break. game 1 was purely a dumb mistake that bisu made, whereas game 3 is a whole another story. everything possible went wrong for jangbi in that game. game 4, bisu gambled again and it paid off. bisu also took a build order risk in game 2 and it paid off as well.
essentially, whatever risk bisu decided to take in every game worked out perfectly for him. which is pretty rare.
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9070 Posts
stork did no major mistake this month to drop out the top spot in the PR, imo he should keep it till the end of the year.. at least
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i just don't understand why bisu plays so sloppy sometimes. it's been that way his entire career
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On November 22 2008 20:07 disciple wrote:
stork did no major mistake this month to drop out the top spot in the PR, imo he should keep it till the end of the year.. at least
agree
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On November 22 2008 20:07 disciple wrote:
stork did no major mistake this month to drop out the top spot in the PR, imo he should keep it till the end of the year.. at least
Stork winning a gold deserves a full year of #1 power rank tbh
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On November 22 2008 21:22 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 20:07 disciple wrote:
stork did no major mistake this month to drop out the top spot in the PR, imo he should keep it till the end of the year.. at least agree
/agree
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On November 22 2008 20:00 Polar_Bear wrote:I think there's no doubt that Bisu should be #1 in dec. + Show Spoiler + PvP was considered to be his "weak" mu... look what he did to Jangbi this morning. Bisu was kind of unlucky in the first game, I still think it could have been 3-0 And Bisu is a bonjwa imo. + Show Spoiler + 3 MSL titles, another MSL final, two special league titles, 3rd spot in OSL, sky proleague title in 2007, most successful protoss of all time, best PvZ of all time, former Kespa #1 several times; probably 2nd most innovative player of all time...(well not everyone will agree with that)
Last time I checked Bisu lost to Stork in the OSL. + Bisu/Jangbi finals isnt the finals for deciding no1 PvP, heck not even no2. This is the battle for no3 best PvPer currently. Stork has done nothing to drop in PR, and Bisu has yet to prove that he is better than Stork right now.
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9070 Posts
yeah, Bisu has a lot of stuff to do, to even put his name and his 3 major titles somewhere near the brilliance of STORK
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well stork has dropped a few games in proleage now and bisu is really hot. If bisu continues to win games he deserves nr1 spot. Its based on how they perform not how good u think they are against eachothers right?
look at bisus last 20 games i mean cmon he's on fire.
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Stork playing well two months ago and winning osl doesn't make him deserved of holding the spot for months on end. Its disgusting that the PR writer probably thinks it should though. Bisu has shown extremely good play this month.
Stork beat Sunny.
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On November 23 2008 02:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Stork playing well two months ago and winning osl doesn't make him deserved of holding the spot for months on end. Its disgusting that the PR writer probably thinks it should though. Bisu has shown extremely good play this month.
Stork beat Sunny.
I think he should keep it for 1 more month. We haven't seen how Bisu will do after his win, now/\.
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On November 23 2008 02:24 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 02:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Stork playing well two months ago and winning osl doesn't make him deserved of holding the spot for months on end. Its disgusting that the PR writer probably thinks it should though. Bisu has shown extremely good play this month.
Stork beat Sunny. I think he should keep it for 1 more month. We haven't seen how Bisu will do after his win, now/\. Yeah and we have seen what Stork did after his osl win; he beat sunny.
Hold the fuckin champagne.
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it`s just that Kal owns stork. Other than that, stork still deserves #1
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On November 22 2008 20:03 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +PvP was considered to be his "weak" mu... look what he did to Jangbi this morning. Bisu was kind of unlucky in the first game, I still think it could have been 3-0 are you kidding me? jangbi was definitely the unlucky one in this series. i give credit to bisu for playing amazingly, but come on...give me a break. game 1 was purely a dumb mistake that bisu made, whereas game 3 is a whole another story. everything possible went wrong for jangbi in that game. game 4, bisu gambled again and it paid off. bisu also took a build order risk in game 2 and it paid off as well. essentially, whatever risk bisu decided to take in every game worked out perfectly for him. which is pretty rare.
Kwark made a really great points about Bisu's gambles in the MSL thread.
"There are always gambles. A player who plays completely safely and counters all the cheesey things his opponent could be doing will lose to a straight up player every time because they've wasted so much money being safe. It's not practical to play safely because that is exploited simply by them not cheesing. Whatever you do is a risk because there will be a something they can do back to gain advantage. Players make a series of small gambles which are educated guesses based upon the metagame. Bisu took a risk by going straight to core on Destination but the metagame made him believe the gains outweighed the risks and he got a solid build order advantage."
Honestly, its a shame that you won't even consider Bisu for number 1 because of your obvious Stork bias. Bisu beat the number 3 power rank and the number 5 power rank in back to back weekends. These were convincing 3-1 victories over tough opponents where Bisu was in control the whole time. Free and Jangbi had been on fire before the ran into Bisu. Jangbi had only lost 1 game the entire MSL before this and Free had defeated the supposedly invincible Jaedong and made Nada look like a complete noob. Now consider how Bisu defeated them both rather easily.
Meanwhile, Stork has the arguement he has the OSL title and was number 1 last month so I can't move him down. Stork really hasn't been playing that great for the past month. Since he defeated ForGG and Best in 1 weekend on the 26th of October lets look at his results.
He defeats Orion 2-1 in GOM thats good, at least he advanced
He loses 2-3 to Kal in MSL, ok he was probably practicing for OSL so this isnt too bad.
He beats Fantasy 3-2 to win his OSL. He was up 2-0 and lost the next 2, but won the fifth set as we all know and did not choke it away, this is a great result for him, even though he was heavily favored.
He goes 1-2 in proleague since beating Sunny (wow) and losing in unimpressive fashion to Calm and Kal.
So since 10-26 this gives Stork a record of 8 wins and 8 losses or a 50 percent win percentage. I'm sure you will throw out a good rebuttle to this, but this is simply not number 1 power rank material when you have a player of Bisu's caliber doing everything right this month. Bisu is 58 points ahead of Stork in ELO, not that this matters for much, but the large difference should show everyone how much hotter Bisu is right now.
Stork may be slightly better mechanically and have slightly better build orders, but I will take Bisu any day. This is because of Bisu's game sense and because he is a CHAMPION. Even after losing game one to Jangbi, a lot of people still knew, some how, some way Bisu will pull through. Bisu's game sense, scouting, and metagame in a series are all so good. On the teamliquid podcast a month Hot_Bid talked how the best of 5 series over one day shows who the best players are. Take a guess at what Bisu's record in the bo5 is? Bisu is now 11-3. (Yes I know all this doesn't have much to do with this months power rank, but you get the point.) We already saw what happened when they fought for the championship, Bisu made the moves he needed to win and Stork was left just making excuses after the game. I don't think it would be much different now in the big game pressure situation.
Oh yeah, and to compare Bisu's recent record to Stork's 8-8 in his last 16, Bisu is 19-4 in his last 23. (Losing only to Free twice, Jangbi once, and Calm once) Your main arguement is there is no reason to move Stork down right now, but I think a lot of other people agree with me when I say there are a lot of damn good reasons to move Bisu up the way he has been performing the past two months.
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I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them.
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On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them.
Better understanding my ass he has . Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long . Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Maybe this month at performance he did better because he was still in the MSL because Stork was focusing an OSL finals WCG PL example , he didn't make MSL Ro8 . But overall Stork is more dominant then Bisu .Since WCG korea Stork has shown good play and domination Bisu should prove more then just winning MSL because Stork too won OSL and beat him while at it . At least the next month Stork should be #1 . Lets see how they do in Gom classic to see who is better althought i don't know if both will take it seriously .
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On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them.
no, it's gambling and it's as simple as that. of course they are calculated risks, but they all worked out perfectly for them. that's pretty rare in PvP.
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United States10774 Posts
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games.
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9070 Posts
On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has .Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . Terran players most likely to run over Bisu - Flash , Mind Leta Fantasy (thought he is a newb ) , ForGG . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long all that Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI .
Just spare all the lines and say you dont like Bisu. Jee... whatever KTY is doing its always not enough for ppl right you. None of Bisu's msl titles was easy to get, he was tested in all MU, beating most of the hot guys out there. His last triumph made no difference, just take a look at jangbi's record this season, free's recent accomplishments even FBH TvP stats from the last couple of months. Winning tournaments doesnt mean beating S class players all the way, and thats the hole point, to endure and to survive the competition. JangBi and free were worthy opponents for the Revolutionist, if flash forGG Leta and fantasy didnt made it to the finals maybe they are not that good actually
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To add on to Disciple's case, Bisu had to play his worst MU, PvT, to get #1 in this final. You could argue that Hwasin and FBH aren't the best TvPers but its better than Stork not facing ANY zerg to his journey to his OSL victory, and Stork's PvZ is less radiant than his PvP and PvT as we all know.
Stork's final was his best MU, PvT.
Bisu's final was not his best MU, which is PvZ.
Stork already received 1 month of PR as #1. People say he lost to Kal in the MSL because he was busy preparing for the OSL Finals. Ok, thats a legitimate reason. But what about his loss verse Kal AFTER the finals? There's no valid reason for that
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On November 23 2008 05:26 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has .Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . Terran players most likely to run over Bisu - Flash , Mind Leta Fantasy (thought he is a newb ) , ForGG . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long all that Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Just spare all the lines and say you dont like Bisu. Jee... whatever KTY is doing its always not enough for ppl right you. None of Bisu's msl titles was easy to get, he was tested in all MU, beating most of the hot guys out there. His last triumph made no difference, just take a look at jangbi's record this season, free's recent accomplishments even FBH TvP stats from the last couple of months. Winning tournaments doesnt mean beating S class players all the way, and thats the hole point, to endure and to survive the competition. JangBi and free were worthy opponents for the Revolutionist, if flash forGG Leta and fantasy didnt made it to the finals maybe they are not that good actually
I'm not saying he is a bad player i'm saying that Stork is better then him right now. Because i don't think that Bisu deserves to be over Stork . Daniel Lee pointed it out in one of their commentarys with Artosis that Bisu is selfish because he focuses an a league and doesn't care much about PL while at it . When Bisu was in MSL together with Stork . Stork was the backbone of the Samsung team in PL with one of the best records in PL.He was in the OSL final , represented Korea in WCG and lost to Kal in an impresive series 3-2 . At that time Bisu was barely used in PL when he was more needed to SKT , Stork could have sit out in PL and his team would still do decent , but he played he put samsung in the second spot he represented korea in WCG and he showed a decent series vs Kal . Where was Bisu at that time preparing for the very difficult series vs PvT disaster FBH ....
At that time i would have had Free too above Bisu , because i give more credit to hard working people then someone who is over hyped .
All i'm saying is that Bisu can't keep up with Stork's consistence .... Where the fuck was Bisu when Stork was everywhere and dominating ?? ? Don't talk about endurance in a single league , but look at all of the Pro scene . Even if Stork droped a few games he can do better then Bisu in multiple occasions and thus why deserves to be higher . Lets see how they do in GOM and PL before saying something as stupid as Bisu deserves to be higher then Stork based on nothing that Stork hasn't done already in the past few days . They aren't even equall in strength , everyone who is not a Bisu sucker or Stork hater can see that Stork is stronger all together .
I don't really like neither Stork or BIsu . They both are boring , but at least Stork impresses me with consistance and the control he shows over the games he dominates .
Free has been the best to watch , because he was winning PL almost by himself and his games are more exciting to watch .
If someone can point out what did Bisu did more or better then Stork recently to deserve to be # 1 , because i have no idea .
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On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. How many times does it have to be said that the argement is not why Stork should move down but why Bisu should move up? Bisu has looked really really good, Stork has not looked like anything. He's played nothing. A case to be made that hes declined? Obviously not. A case to be made however that Bisu played extremely impressively, equally if not surpieror to what Stork did in incruit- and stork at the moment, when hes giving results is giving us the "fabulous" results of 2-1 orion. He hasn't declined, but it just cant be compared favorably to Bisu.
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On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has . Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long . Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Maybe this month at performance he did better because he was still in the MSL because Stork was focusing an OSL finals WCG PL example , he didn't make MSL Ro8 . But overall Stork is more dominant then Bisu .Since WCG korea Stork has shown good play and domination Bisu should prove more then just winning MSL because Stork too won OSL and beat him while at it . At least the next month Stork should be #1 . Lets see how they do in Gom classic to see who is better althought i don't know if both will take it seriously .
You don't know that Bisu will lose to above average terrans because he was never tested against them ever since he entered Baller mode. The same can be said with Stork and his pvz. All we know is that they are both Ballers but not who is more Baller than the other.
Bisu does not have terrible control. The only slip up I saw in his series vs Jangbi is his shuttle micro. His probe micro deflecting manner pylons, zealot micro in game 3, large army unit control in games 1 and 2 - everything else is impeccable. Generalizing his entire control from just one aspect of unit control makes your argument look biased.
You dont know Bisu got lucky with cheese and BO win. All of this has to do with metagame and mindgames, and we cannot analyze how strong Bisu's mindgames are because of the low amount of sample space present (he only played 2 recent BOx pvps). But mindgames are not just luck. I mean, you dont think playing poker professionaly involves nothing but luck, do you?
Stork has faced top level competition as much as Bisu has. I dont understand why you praise Stork for beating Best and Fantasy while dropping a few games to mediocre players, but not do the same for Bisu, who has not dropped a single game against any mediocre players since he got on fire (unless you count calm as mediocre). I guess you can argue that Bisu dropped a TvP against FHB, but I dont believe this was the time that Bisu really engaged in Baller mode - it was more closer to his BO 3 against Hwasin, imo. This argument leads to the conclusion that Bisu is more consistent than Stork.
And you can say what you want about Stork and Korea WCG qualifiers, but that was so long ago and a lot can change. For example, Bisu getting back on form. He was mediocre back then, which is why he deserved to drop out of the PR. But he is in form now, and the PR should take this into context realizing that Bisu grew into a stronger player, definitely top3 and maybe even better than Stork if his performance continues to stay Baller while Stork continue to drop proleague games.
So does Stork deserve to drop to #2? I dunno  . I think the few proleague games remaining will determine who will be #1 and #2, since what both Bisu and Stork has achieved in the past 2 month is pretty similar. But honestly I think if we had to rank them RIGHT NOW then I would put Bisu as #1.
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On November 23 2008 06:17 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 05:26 disciple wrote:On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has .Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . Terran players most likely to run over Bisu - Flash , Mind Leta Fantasy (thought he is a newb ) , ForGG . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long all that Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Just spare all the lines and say you dont like Bisu. Jee... whatever KTY is doing its always not enough for ppl right you. None of Bisu's msl titles was easy to get, he was tested in all MU, beating most of the hot guys out there. His last triumph made no difference, just take a look at jangbi's record this season, free's recent accomplishments even FBH TvP stats from the last couple of months. Winning tournaments doesnt mean beating S class players all the way, and thats the hole point, to endure and to survive the competition. JangBi and free were worthy opponents for the Revolutionist, if flash forGG Leta and fantasy didnt made it to the finals maybe they are not that good actually I'm not saying he is a bad player i'm saying that Stork is better then him right now. Because i don't think that Bisu deserves to be over Stork . Daniel Lee pointed it out in one of their commentarys with Artosis that Bisu is selfish because he focuses an a league and doesn't care much about PL while at it . When Bisu was in MSL together with Stork . Stork was the backbone of the Samsung team in PL with one of the best records in PL.He was in the OSL final , represented Korea in WCG and lost to Kal in an impresive series 3-2 . At that time Bisu was barely used in PL when he was more needed to SKT , Stork could have sit out in PL and his team would still do decent , but he played he put samsung in the second spot he represented korea in WCG and he showed a decent series vs Kal . Where was Bisu at that time preparing for the very difficult series vs PvT disaster FBH .... At that time i would have had Free too above Bisu , because i give more credit to hard working people then someone who is over hyped . All i'm saying is that Bisu can't keep up with Stork's consistence .... Where the fuck was Bisu when Stork was everywhere and dominating ?? ? Don't talk about endurance in a single league , but look at all of the Pro scene . Even if Stork droped a few games he can do better then Bisu in multiple occasions and thus why deserves to be higher . Lets see how they do in GOM and PL before saying something as stupid as Bisu deserves to be higher then Stork based on nothing that Stork hasn't done already in the past few days . They aren't even equall in strength , everyone who is not a Bisu sucker or Stork hater can see that Stork is stronger all together . I don't really like neither Stork or BIsu . They both are boring , but at least Stork impresses me with consistance and the control he shows over the games he dominates . Free has been the best to watch , because he was winning PL almost by himself and his games are more exciting to watch . If someone can point out what did Bisu did more or better then Stork recently to deserve to be # 1 , because i have no idea .
I dont think consistence is the word. Consistency is never dropping a game to those below you, yet Stork dropped quite a bit of games against mediocre players compared to Bisu.
I think you mean to compare Stork's resilience to Bisu, or his ability to perform in top shape even when he was swamped with so many games to play. And this is a valid argument, I agree with you. However, if this is the ONLY argument for Stork, then I believe Bisu should be placed above him because of Bisu's consistency and the fact that he had to play his statistically weakest MU in both the semifinal and the final to win his MSL while Stork had to play his strongest MU in the final to win his OSL. His pvp games against Best were quite awesome, though. But in terms of more well-roundedness, Bisu has shown tested results that trumps that of Stork.
If there is any other argument in favor of Stork, then I'm all ears 
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On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games.
your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks.
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you can argue all you want but after GOM classic is through Jaedong will be nr1 and flash nr2 or vice verca. K?
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On November 23 2008 07:29 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
you can argue all you want but after GOM classic is through Jaedong will be nr1 and flash nr2 or vice verca. K?
K, but only if you replace Jaedong with Boxer, and Flash with Boxer
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On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks.
well, then Jd would be #1
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wow few of Stork fans here makes me :r
dont get me wrong i love Stork but like Dazed_spy mentioned " its not about why Stork should move down but why Bisu should move up "
Bisu just won his 3rd MSL making him the first protoss with golden badge and winning three MSL title. need to say more?!
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks.
no, you are out of your mind
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On November 23 2008 09:23 ambit!ous1 wrote:
wow few of Stork fans here makes me :r
dont get me wrong i love Stork but like Dazed_spy mentioned " its not about why Stork should move down but why Bisu should move up "
Bisu just won his 3rd MSL making him the first protoss with golden badge and winning three MSL title. need to say more?!
a third title doesnt somehow make his MSL performance better than Stork's OSL. Stork's OSL road was much, much tougher. we will give it some more time. If Bisu keeps playing well in PL while Stork loses a bit, then bisu will be #1.
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On November 23 2008 06:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. How many times does it have to be said that the argement is not why Stork should move down but why Bisu should move up? Bisu has looked really really good, Stork has not looked like anything. He's played nothing. A case to be made that hes declined? Obviously not. A case to be made however that Bisu played extremely impressively, equally if not surpieror to what Stork did in incruit- and stork at the moment, when hes giving results is giving us the "fabulous" results of 2-1 orion. He hasn't declined, but it just cant be compared favorably to Bisu.
stork's OSL was definitely superior to Bisu's MSL, no question about that. Bisu's MSL victory alone isn't enough to take over the #1 spot yet. However, as I said earlier, we will keep watching how they play. just not enough yet, calm down.
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On November 23 2008 06:12 Februarys wrote:
To add on to Disciple's case, Bisu had to play his worst MU, PvT, to get #1 in this final. You could argue that Hwasin and FBH aren't the best TvPers but its better than Stork not facing ANY zerg to his journey to his OSL victory, and Stork's PvZ is less radiant than his PvP and PvT as we all know.
Stork's final was his best MU, PvT.
Bisu's final was not his best MU, which is PvZ.
Stork already received 1 month of PR as #1. People say he lost to Kal in the MSL because he was busy preparing for the OSL Finals. Ok, thats a legitimate reason. But what about his loss verse Kal AFTER the finals? There's no valid reason for that
Ah Februrarys is back with more bullshit than ever. You are ACTUALLY saying that Bisu beating Hwasin and FBH in PvT is more impressive than Stork beating Bisu and Best in PvP. ARE YOU JOKING?
Bisu has always raped Hwasin, and he did it again. Hwasin is mediocre at TvP. Sure, FBH improved his TvP but it's still long ways to go. Stork took down Bisu AND BEST in PvP. Argument stops here.
I rest my case here. Will watch how they keep playing and then we can decide. It's absolutely premature to give Bisu #1 just yet.
you too, p4fn2w.
On November 23 2008 07:25 p4fn2w wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 06:17 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 05:26 disciple wrote:On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has .Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . Terran players most likely to run over Bisu - Flash , Mind Leta Fantasy (thought he is a newb ) , ForGG . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long all that Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Just spare all the lines and say you dont like Bisu. Jee... whatever KTY is doing its always not enough for ppl right you. None of Bisu's msl titles was easy to get, he was tested in all MU, beating most of the hot guys out there. His last triumph made no difference, just take a look at jangbi's record this season, free's recent accomplishments even FBH TvP stats from the last couple of months. Winning tournaments doesnt mean beating S class players all the way, and thats the hole point, to endure and to survive the competition. JangBi and free were worthy opponents for the Revolutionist, if flash forGG Leta and fantasy didnt made it to the finals maybe they are not that good actually I'm not saying he is a bad player i'm saying that Stork is better then him right now. Because i don't think that Bisu deserves to be over Stork . Daniel Lee pointed it out in one of their commentarys with Artosis that Bisu is selfish because he focuses an a league and doesn't care much about PL while at it . When Bisu was in MSL together with Stork . Stork was the backbone of the Samsung team in PL with one of the best records in PL.He was in the OSL final , represented Korea in WCG and lost to Kal in an impresive series 3-2 . At that time Bisu was barely used in PL when he was more needed to SKT , Stork could have sit out in PL and his team would still do decent , but he played he put samsung in the second spot he represented korea in WCG and he showed a decent series vs Kal . Where was Bisu at that time preparing for the very difficult series vs PvT disaster FBH .... At that time i would have had Free too above Bisu , because i give more credit to hard working people then someone who is over hyped . All i'm saying is that Bisu can't keep up with Stork's consistence .... Where the fuck was Bisu when Stork was everywhere and dominating ?? ? Don't talk about endurance in a single league , but look at all of the Pro scene . Even if Stork droped a few games he can do better then Bisu in multiple occasions and thus why deserves to be higher . Lets see how they do in GOM and PL before saying something as stupid as Bisu deserves to be higher then Stork based on nothing that Stork hasn't done already in the past few days . They aren't even equall in strength , everyone who is not a Bisu sucker or Stork hater can see that Stork is stronger all together . I don't really like neither Stork or BIsu . They both are boring , but at least Stork impresses me with consistance and the control he shows over the games he dominates . Free has been the best to watch , because he was winning PL almost by himself and his games are more exciting to watch . If someone can point out what did Bisu did more or better then Stork recently to deserve to be # 1 , because i have no idea . I dont think consistence is the word. Consistency is never dropping a game to those below you, yet Stork dropped quite a bit of games against mediocre players compared to Bisu. I think you mean to compare Stork's resilience to Bisu, or his ability to perform in top shape even when he was swamped with so many games to play. And this is a valid argument, I agree with you. However, if this is the ONLY argument for Stork, then I believe Bisu should be placed above him because of Bisu's consistency and the fact that he had to play his statistically weakest MU in both the semifinal and the final to win his MSL while Stork had to play his strongest MU in the final to win his OSL. His pvp games against Best were quite awesome, though. But in terms of more well-roundedness, Bisu has shown tested results that trumps that of Stork. If there is any other argument in favor of Stork, then I'm all ears
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United States10774 Posts
To summarize all that stuff:
Bisu's road to MSL was easier (don't even try to argue about this one please) than Stork's OSL. Which is why it's not enough to replace the #1 spot. However, if Bisu keeps raping in PL while Stork's pace drops, then yeah, KTY should be #1. I hope this makes sense to everyone.
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9070 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On November 23 2008 06:17 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 05:26 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 04:57 raga4ka wrote:On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. Better understanding my ass he has .Even if he has Stork still beats him and Bisu still loses to terran players that are above the term "average" - yes Hwasin and FBH suck . Terran players most likely to run over Bisu - Flash , Mind Leta Fantasy (thought he is a newb ) , ForGG . I don't know what you saw brilliant in that series he had terrible control got lucky with the cheese and Bo win . Stork has faced top level competition all around and has been dominating fairly long all that Bisu did was beat TvP disasters FBH and Hwasin a good series vs Free and not that bad vs JangBI . Just spare all the lines and say you dont like Bisu. Jee... whatever KTY is doing its always not enough for ppl right you. None of Bisu's msl titles was easy to get, he was tested in all MU, beating most of the hot guys out there. His last triumph made no difference, just take a look at jangbi's record this season, free's recent accomplishments even FBH TvP stats from the last couple of months. Winning tournaments doesnt mean beating S class players all the way, and thats the hole point, to endure and to survive the competition. JangBi and free were worthy opponents for the Revolutionist, if flash forGG Leta and fantasy didnt made it to the finals maybe they are not that good actually I'm not saying he is a bad player i'm saying that Stork is better then him right now. Because i don't think that Bisu deserves to be over Stork . Daniel Lee pointed it out in one of their commentarys with Artosis that Bisu is selfish because he focuses an a league and doesn't care much about PL while at it . When Bisu was in MSL together with Stork . Stork was the backbone of the Samsung team in PL with one of the best records in PL.He was in the OSL final , represented Korea in WCG and lost to Kal in an impresive series 3-2 . At that time Bisu was barely used in PL when he was more needed to SKT , Stork could have sit out in PL and his team would still do decent , but he played he put samsung in the second spot he represented korea in WCG and he showed a decent series vs Kal . Where was Bisu at that time preparing for the very difficult series vs PvT disaster FBH .... At that time i would have had Free too above Bisu , because i give more credit to hard working people then someone who is over hyped . All i'm saying is that Bisu can't keep up with Stork's consistence .... Where the fuck was Bisu when Stork was everywhere and dominating ?? ? Don't talk about endurance in a single league , but look at all of the Pro scene . Even if Stork droped a few games he can do better then Bisu in multiple occasions and thus why deserves to be higher . Lets see how they do in GOM and PL before saying something as stupid as Bisu deserves to be higher then Stork based on nothing that Stork hasn't done already in the past few days . They aren't even equall in strength , everyone who is not a Bisu sucker or Stork hater can see that Stork is stronger all together . I don't really like neither Stork or BIsu . They both are boring , but at least Stork impresses me with consistance and the control he shows over the games he dominates . Free has been the best to watch , because he was winning PL almost by himself and his games are more exciting to watch . If someone can point out what did Bisu did more or better then Stork recently to deserve to be # 1 , because i have no idea .
I think we have a small misunderstanding. I'm not claiming anywhere in my posts that Bisu should be rated higher than Stork in the next PR, in fact just a few posts ago I've said that Stork made no major mistake to drop out the top spot. I think your are misjudging Bisu's overall performance, not his current one. The polemic argument who is better Bisu or Stork began so long ago, it makes no sense to compare them any further.
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United States10774 Posts
Btw Februarys, are you actually using Stork's loss to Kal against him? I thought it was you who strongly believes in "a player can't win every game." LOL. Or does that only apply to Jaedong? Seriously, go get lost. I enjoyed those days where you were banned and I didn't have to suffer through your incoherent nonsense. I hope it happens again soon.
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On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind
Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind.
Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine.
As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now.
Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry.
If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that.
God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please.
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As long as these two baller tosses continue to go at it like back in the days of Boxer and Yellow, then I dont care who's number 1, I'll be happy .
ps: I always wondered... In what context of the players is the PR considering, anyways? I always thought the November PR ONLY considered games played in November, however I realized about half a year ago that this wasnt true. How far do we go back, and where is the line drawn?
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9070 Posts
God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please.
Champions were always given credit in long term for their PR standing, just check out the PR after Bisu destroying savior some seasons ago- savior was still on the top of the chart the next month. The only exception from this unwritten rule was surprisingly Jaedong, who dropped the 1st place after his beating from forGG. But forGG was just too hot to be denied then. As for the PR writers I find them all quite competent and personally admire OneOthers efforts to be as neutral as possible.
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On November 23 2008 10:25 disciple wrote:Champions were always given credit in long term for their PR standing, just check out the PR after Bisu destroying savior some seasons ago- savior was still on the top of the chart the next month. The only exception from this unwritten rule was surprisingly Jaedong, who dropped the 1st place after his beating from forGG. But forGG was just too hot to be denied then. As for the PR writers I find them all quite competent and personally admire OneOthers efforts to be as neutral as possible. It was never an unwritten rule, it was murky waters. Savior won his OSL a few days before he lost to Bisu. In all games he was still looking the best. Bisu had a sloppy series against Light, a series of BO wins against RA, and a really good series against Savior. Besides that, he was a relative new comer with few games, and a shitty if non insignificant PL performance. There was a legitimate question over who was better.
Jaedong was dropped when FORGG raped him because Jaedong was shaky as hell right up until that point, FORGG was dropped straight after because his results THAT MONTH did not warrant he was still number one. His msl win THE PREVIOUS MONTH was not used to warrant he stay as number one the next month. Even though he was, like Jaedong, like Stork, Bisu, Savior, and Flash- a champion.
There is no god damn unwritten rule. Yes long term play has a place in the decision making process, or else this list would be ridiculously inaccurate. Yet you can not use something that is in the past and wholly irrelevant to this month to not only be the main reason, but the ONLY reason a player remains at the top.
One other, you are a biased douche, give this back to Fakesteve or someone remotely competent.*
*And no I am not saying this because you refuse to put Bisu at first; the month is not over, thats fine. I am saying that because you refuse out of hand, under the obviously biased assumption that Stork is better regardless of results. There is a difference between being hesitant, and blatantly ignoring reality. FS did it FAR too often with Sea, but Sea was not a top player so there was no injustice if he deserved 8th spot or 10th spot, this however IS important. If you can not do it right....leave.
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First of all, Bisu fanboys needs to realize that although this is a monthly ranking, it does not mean that we ONLY take into account this month's games. Otherwise we'd have lame one-hit wonders hitting the PR despite sucking the rest of their careers.
And blaming Stork for "not doing anything" recently is ludicrous. I mean, the guy just played gazillion games last month, and had to participate in the WCG earlier this month. Of course he hasn't done shit in the leagues since.
Anyway, taking into account this past season...
Stork has
OSL win
MSL Ro8
GOM Ro32(will change to Ro16 tonight unless upset happens)
6-3 PL record
Bisu has
MSL win
OSL Ro8
GOM Ro16
4-1 PL record
Basically, they're almost identical. So assuming Stork beats Keke in GOM, they would be the same except OSL slightly > MSL, and Stork 2-1 head-to-head vs. Bisu in OSL. And yes, that should result in Stork retaining his #1 ranking no matter how short a memory fanboys seem to have.
Of course, if Stork loses tonight in GOM, I take everything I said back.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 10:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 10:25 disciple wrote:
God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please.
Champions were always given credit in long term for their PR standing, just check out the PR after Bisu destroying savior some seasons ago- savior was still on the top of the chart the next month. The only exception from this unwritten rule was surprisingly Jaedong, who dropped the 1st place after his beating from forGG. But forGG was just too hot to be denied then. As for the PR writers I find them all quite competent and personally admire OneOthers efforts to be as neutral as possible. It was never an unwritten rule, it was murky waters. Savior won his OSL a few days before he lost to Bisu. In all games he was still looking the best. Bisu had a sloppy series against Light, a series of BO wins against RA, and a really good series against Savior. Besides that, he was a relative new comer with few games, and a shitty if non insignificant PL performance. There was a legitimate question over who was better. Jaedong was dropped when FORGG raped him because Jaedong was shaky as hell right up until that point, FORGG was dropped straight after because his results THAT MONTH did not warrant he was still number one. His msl win THE PREVIOUS MONTH was not used to warrant he stay as number one the next month. Even though he was, like Jaedong, like Stork, Bisu, Savior, and Flash- a champion. There is no god damn unwritten rule. Yes long term play has a place in the decision making process, or else this list would be ridiculously inaccurate. Yet you can not use something that is in the past and wholly irrelevant to this month to not only be the main reason, but the ONLY reason a player remains at the top. One other, you are a biased douche, give this back to Fakesteve or someone remotely competent.* *And no I am not saying this because you refuse to put Bisu at first; the month is not over, thats fine. I am saying that because you refuse out of hand, under the obviously biased assumption that Stork is better regardless of results. There is a difference between being hesitant, and blatantly ignoring reality. FS did it FAR too often with Sea, but Sea was not a top player so there was no injustice if he deserved 8th spot or 10th spot, this however IS important. If you can not do it right....leave.
ScarFace, I could care less about worthless stuff you have to say about me.
First of all, there's a huge difference between the 3-0 series of Savior/Bisu Finals and Stork dropping a couple PL games. There's also a difference between Jaedong getting raped 0-3 in the finals against forGG and Stork losing in the PL. As for forGG, he played bad after winning the MSL when Jaedong + other players started playing better than ever. I do not agree with the decision of whoever made that PR of droppin forGG that much the following month though. I would have kept him higher. Stork has not played badly enough yet. However, rankings certainly can change if Stork loses more. (On the assumption that Bisu maintains his high level of play) Stork's much tougher OSL victory remains on top of Bisu's MSL win. Bisu beat on TvP newbs Hwasin and FBH, whereas Stork took down Bisu himself and as well as BeSt. And it's not like I said Bisu would never take over the #1 spot. I said if Stork keeps dropping PL games and Bisu keeps his performance up, then yeah, Bisu is going to be the number one.
Lol @ kids calling me incompetent.I do my best to keep the rankings unbiased, and I don't need those personal insults.
*And no I am not saying this because you refuse to put Bisu at first; the month is not over, thats fine. I am saying that because you refuse out of hand, under the obviously biased assumption that Stork is better regardless of results. There is a difference between being hesitant, and blatantly ignoring reality. FS did it FAR too often with Sea, but Sea was not a top player so there was no injustice if he deserved 8th spot or 10th spot, this however IS important. If you can not do it right....leave.
I am under the bias that Stork is better than Bisu regardless of results? GO READ WHAT I SAID MULTIPLE TIMES. I said that although I think Stork's OSL is much better than Bisu's MSL, Bisu _WILL_ take the #1 spot if he keeps it up while Stork continues dropping games in PL and others. Do you not understand that? How is that assuming Stork is the better player regardless of results?
Here, I will lay it out nice and easy for you:
1) Previous achievement has always counted in the next month's, meaning: the player below has to do something greater OR the #1 player has to start under performing.
2) Stork's OSL > Bisu's MSL
3) Bisu will take #1 if he keeps playing the way he is, while Stork keeps getting the L's.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 10:12 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind. Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine. As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now. Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry. If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that. God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please.
You don't understand how the PR works. Bisu is 12-4 majorly because of MSL, which all counts towards his MSL win. Stork has played in 3 PL games since OSL win.
It has always taken the previous month into account. Unless the #2 player does something that is greater than what the #1 has achieved last month, OR the #1 starts slowing down significantly, there won't be changes. Neither of that happened yet. Stork's OSL>Bisu's MSL. Stork dropped a couple PL games to great players, which hardly justifies anything.
Now, let's say Bisu keeps excelling in Proleague/GOM/etc while Stork doesn't. Welcome to #1, Bisu. Be quiet if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least don't insult me.
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United States10774 Posts
Power Rank = accumulation of monthly performances. Stork's OSL doesn't go away, at least until the new season begins.
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As it is right now i feel abit more comfortable in Bisus games than in storks. Stork had a tougher msl but it lacked zergs.
When bisu faces a zerg i feel more comfortable than when stork does.
Pvp they are equal imo atm.
and pvt stork is abit stronger, but not much at this moment and certainly not as much stronger as bisus pvz is compared to storks pvz.
This kindof indicates bisus right to the first spot
However its my oppinion and i respect that we wait and see how things goes.
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this would be so much easier if they actually met in proleague, round one AND ace rofl
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 12:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
As it is right now i feel abit more comfortable in Bisus games than in storks. Stork had a tougher msl but it lacked zergs.
When bisu faces a zerg i feel more comfortable than when stork does.
Pvp they are equal imo atm.
and pvt stork is abit stronger, but not much at this moment and certainly not as much stronger as bisus pvz is compared to storks pvz.
This kindof indicates bisus right to the first spot
However its my oppinion and i respect that we wait and see how things goes.
Well true, he didn't face any Zergs. HOWEVER:
Stork beating Bisu and Best seems much more difficult than Bisu beating Hwasin and FBH.
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On November 23 2008 12:17 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 12:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
As it is right now i feel abit more comfortable in Bisus games than in storks. Stork had a tougher msl but it lacked zergs.
When bisu faces a zerg i feel more comfortable than when stork does.
Pvp they are equal imo atm.
and pvt stork is abit stronger, but not much at this moment and certainly not as much stronger as bisus pvz is compared to storks pvz.
This kindof indicates bisus right to the first spot
However its my oppinion and i respect that we wait and see how things goes. Well true, he didn't face any Zergs. HOWEVER: Stork beating Bisu and Best seems much more difficult than Bisu beating Hwasin and FBH.
You are comparing apples to oranges, if you are comparing the two tournaments compare them right
Round of 16
Stork 1-0 Fantasy, Sea, and Backho
Bisu 2-0 Hwasin
I am not making a judgment about which is harder except 3 games are tougher than 2 (evens out in Ro8).
Round of 8
Stork 2-1 Bisu
Bisu 3-0 FBH
Here I am judging Bisu had an easier task than Stork (although he showed how much easier it was by totally dominating FBH from start to finish)
Round of 4
Stork 3-1 Best
Bisu 3-1 Free
Once again Stork had a harder task to do but I can't remember how bad Bisu stomped Free or Stork stomped Best so I can't say anything.
Finals
Stork 3-2 Fantasy
Bisu 3-1 Jangbi
I make no judgment here especially since I have yet to see the actual games for the MSL.
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haha
u know what , go ahead and put your boy/Stork for #1 on December's PR.
since you took over PR it really didnt mean shit ( you are just a KAHN/Stork WHORE ) to me.
+ Show Spoiler +i really miss DJEtterStyle & FakeSteve's PR
you can distort all you want but my boy Bisu is on the road to Bonjwa ( haha 1st Protoss ) and that is all i can say and that is all i have to say
Bisu <3's you all!
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On November 23 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 10:12 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind. Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine. As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now. Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry. If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that. God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please. You don't understand how the PR works. Bisu is 12-4 majorly because of MSL, which all counts towards his MSL win. Stork has played in 3 PL games since OSL win. It has always taken the previous month into account. Unless the #2 player does something that is greater than what the #1 has achieved last month, OR the #1 starts slowing down significantly, there won't be changes. Neither of that happened yet. Stork's OSL>Bisu's MSL. Stork dropped a couple PL games to great players, which hardly justifies anything. Now, let's say Bisu keeps excelling in Proleague/GOM/etc while Stork doesn't. Welcome to #1, Bisu. Be quiet if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least don't insult me.
Let's suppose that you take last month's osl win from stork win into account, I disagree on stork's osl > bisu's msl.
Suppose again your October's power rank is of significant weight and reason, then compare Stork's OSL road and Bisu's MSL road:
Round of 8
Stork 2-1 Bisu
Bisu 3-0 FBH
Stork won a close series between himself and bisu, while bisu 3:0'd fbh. I wouldn't know if Stork could 3:0 fbh given he barely beat him the last time they met in a bo5, so I'll have to give Bisu this one.
Round of 4
Stork 3-1 Best
Bisu 3-1 Free
ok Best is #7 on your Oct PR, and Free is #3 on your Oct PR. Best is known for having the best PvP even though free has been hotter, so I give stork this one.
Finals
Stork 3-2 Fantasy
Bisu 3-1 Jangbi
This one is no brainer. Bisu has by far the tougher opponent. Stork again barely beat your #9 ranked player, whereas Bisu beat the #5 ranked player. Stork is by far more favored in his osl final, and most people expected him to win, far more than people expected bisu to come out on top in his msl.
And that's why overall Bisu seems to have a tougher road than Stork, at least since the round of 8.
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Poll: Which is a harder series for a protoss (overall)?
(Vote): vs Backho, Fantasy, Sea, Bo3 vs Bisu, Bo5 vs Best, Bo5 vs Fantasy
(Vote): vs FBH, Much, Backho, Bo5 vs Hwasin, Bo5 vs Free, Bo5 vs Jangbi
I worded it in an attempt to avoid bias. Probably unsuccessful, but whatever, it came to this.
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How about we leave the personal insults out of this? He who throws mud loses ground...
From an objective point of view, Stork has had a quiet month. Quiet not necessarily equating to bad. Stork firmly established himself as the best player in the world last month. Whether this persists or not is contingent on his performances in GOM and PL. GOM judgment is reserved for the time being, due to games being played with Keke tonight. His PL performances have not been dominant and have not been indicative of being the 'strongest player in the world'. He has lost to strong opposition, but this is opposition that you would expect Stork to overcome nonetheless.
Bisu has not had a quiet month. He has beaten Calm, a very good player currently from his PL results, in 3 hard fought sets. He dismantled FBH and Hwasin without losing a game. This was to be expected, as Hwasin is Bisu's whipping boy, and FBH's TvP is based on aggression and taking the game to the enemy. Bisu dissected this play by reversing the aggression onto FBH and easily overcoming him. He then beat Free, a player who many thought was the other best player of the MSL to that point, convincingly. Free's play in the semi was not what it was during the rest of the MSL, but he put up a fight. He didn't necessarily choose the standard builds either, using his trademark 4-gate goon push and goon micro to try to eke out wins. However, Bisu deflected these efforts by staying composed and sticking to his guns. He then outplayed Jangbi in 4 tough sets. While you could say he was lucky in three of these games, once he got the advantage, he was relentless and never let up.
I believe Bisu should be number one contingent on this month's performances, and Stork should keep it if PR is contingent more on performances from a 2-month window or so.
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On November 23 2008 06:12 Februarys wrote:
To add on to Disciple's case, Bisu had to play his worst MU, PvT, to get #1 in this final. You could argue that Hwasin and FBH aren't the best TvPers but its better than Stork not facing ANY zerg to his journey to his OSL victory, and Stork's PvZ is less radiant than his PvP and PvT as we all know.
Stork's final was his best MU, PvT.
Bisu's final was not his best MU, which is PvZ.
Stork already received 1 month of PR as #1. People say he lost to Kal in the MSL because he was busy preparing for the OSL Finals. Ok, thats a legitimate reason. But what about his loss verse Kal AFTER the finals? There's no valid reason for that
1. Stork's Best MU is PvP. People just forgot since Best came along.
2. Bisu did not play ANY ZERGS OR TERRANS who had a half-assed vP. And the protosses he faced, while good, were not on the same caliber of what Stork faced (Best, Bisu).
On November 23 2008 11:31 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 10:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 23 2008 10:25 disciple wrote:
God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please.
Champions were always given credit in long term for their PR standing, just check out the PR after Bisu destroying savior some seasons ago- savior was still on the top of the chart the next month. The only exception from this unwritten rule was surprisingly Jaedong, who dropped the 1st place after his beating from forGG. But forGG was just too hot to be denied then. As for the PR writers I find them all quite competent and personally admire OneOthers efforts to be as neutral as possible. It was never an unwritten rule, it was murky waters. Savior won his OSL a few days before he lost to Bisu. In all games he was still looking the best. Bisu had a sloppy series against Light, a series of BO wins against RA, and a really good series against Savior. Besides that, he was a relative new comer with few games, and a shitty if non insignificant PL performance. There was a legitimate question over who was better. Jaedong was dropped when FORGG raped him because Jaedong was shaky as hell right up until that point, FORGG was dropped straight after because his results THAT MONTH did not warrant he was still number one. His msl win THE PREVIOUS MONTH was not used to warrant he stay as number one the next month. Even though he was, like Jaedong, like Stork, Bisu, Savior, and Flash- a champion. There is no god damn unwritten rule. Yes long term play has a place in the decision making process, or else this list would be ridiculously inaccurate. Yet you can not use something that is in the past and wholly irrelevant to this month to not only be the main reason, but the ONLY reason a player remains at the top. One other, you are a biased douche, give this back to Fakesteve or someone remotely competent.* *And no I am not saying this because you refuse to put Bisu at first; the month is not over, thats fine. I am saying that because you refuse out of hand, under the obviously biased assumption that Stork is better regardless of results. There is a difference between being hesitant, and blatantly ignoring reality. FS did it FAR too often with Sea, but Sea was not a top player so there was no injustice if he deserved 8th spot or 10th spot, this however IS important. If you can not do it right....leave. ScarFace, I could care less about worthless stuff you have to say about me. First of all, there's a huge difference between the 3-0 series of Savior/Bisu Finals and Stork dropping a couple PL games. There's also a difference between Jaedong getting raped 0-3 in the finals against forGG and Stork losing in the PL. As for forGG, he played bad after winning the MSL when Jaedong + other players started playing better than ever. I do not agree with the decision of whoever made that PR of droppin forGG that much the following month though. I would have kept him higher. Stork has not played badly enough yet. However, rankings certainly can change if Stork loses more. (On the assumption that Bisu maintains his high level of play) Stork's much tougher OSL victory remains on top of Bisu's MSL win. Bisu beat on TvP newbs Hwasin and FBH, whereas Stork took down Bisu himself and as well as BeSt. And it's not like I said Bisu would never take over the #1 spot. I said if Stork keeps dropping PL games and Bisu keeps his performance up, then yeah, Bisu is going to be the number one. Lol @ kids calling me incompetent.I do my best to keep the rankings unbiased, and I don't need those personal insults. Show nested quote +*And no I am not saying this because you refuse to put Bisu at first; the month is not over, thats fine. I am saying that because you refuse out of hand, under the obviously biased assumption that Stork is better regardless of results. There is a difference between being hesitant, and blatantly ignoring reality. FS did it FAR too often with Sea, but Sea was not a top player so there was no injustice if he deserved 8th spot or 10th spot, this however IS important. If you can not do it right....leave. I am under the bias that Stork is better than Bisu regardless of results? GO READ WHAT I SAID MULTIPLE TIMES. I said that although I think Stork's OSL is much better than Bisu's MSL, Bisu _WILL_ take the #1 spot if he keeps it up while Stork continues dropping games in PL and others. Do you not understand that? How is that assuming Stork is the better player regardless of results? Here, I will lay it out nice and easy for you: 1) Previous achievement has always counted in the next month's, meaning: the player below has to do something greater OR the #1 player has to start under performing. 2) Stork's OSL > Bisu's MSL 3) Bisu will take #1 if he keeps playing the way he is, while Stork keeps getting the L's.
Dazed Spy is ScarFace? No wonder I disagree with him so much.
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United States13896 Posts
On November 23 2008 13:11 zhaoli86 wrote:
Round of 8
Stork 2-1 Bisu
Bisu 3-0 FBH
Stork won a close series between himself and bisu, while bisu 3:0'd fbh. I wouldn't know if Stork could 3:0 fbh given he barely beat him the last time they met in a bo5, so I'll have to give Bisu this one.
Your logic here is so flawed it's ridiculous. You're comparing the two series, then you switch gears and say that you're not sure Stork could 3-0 his teammate like Stork did, so Bisu > Stork. The question of whether Stork could 3-0 FBH is completely irrelevant to what you're attempting to figure out. Don't try and pull some kind of misdirection trick to claim that Bisu had it harder here.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 13:05 ambit!ous1 wrote:haha u know what , go ahead and put your boy/Stork for #1 on December's PR. since you took over PR it really didnt mean shit ( you are just a KAHN/Stork WHORE ) to me. + Show Spoiler +i really miss DJEtterStyle & FakeSteve's PR you can distort all you want but my boy Bisu is on the road to Bonjwa ( haha 1st Protoss ) and that is all i can say and that is all i have to say Bisu <3's you all!
right, that's why I put Jaedong over Stork for the disputed #1 spot last month.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 13:11 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 10:12 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind. Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine. As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now. Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry. If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that. God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please. You don't understand how the PR works. Bisu is 12-4 majorly because of MSL, which all counts towards his MSL win. Stork has played in 3 PL games since OSL win. It has always taken the previous month into account. Unless the #2 player does something that is greater than what the #1 has achieved last month, OR the #1 starts slowing down significantly, there won't be changes. Neither of that happened yet. Stork's OSL>Bisu's MSL. Stork dropped a couple PL games to great players, which hardly justifies anything. Now, let's say Bisu keeps excelling in Proleague/GOM/etc while Stork doesn't. Welcome to #1, Bisu. Be quiet if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least don't insult me. Let's suppose that you take last month's osl win from stork win into account, I disagree on stork's osl > bisu's msl. Suppose again your October's power rank is of significant weight and reason, then compare Stork's OSL road and Bisu's MSL road: Round of 8 Stork 2-1 Bisu Bisu 3-0 FBH Stork won a close series between himself and bisu, while bisu 3:0'd fbh. I wouldn't know if Stork could 3:0 fbh given he barely beat him the last time they met in a bo5, so I'll have to give Bisu this one. Round of 4 Stork 3-1 Best Bisu 3-1 Free ok Best is #7 on your Oct PR, and Free is #3 on your Oct PR. Best is known for having the best PvP even though free has been hotter, so I give stork this one. Finals Stork 3-2 Fantasy Bisu 3-1 Jangbi This one is no brainer. Bisu has by far the tougher opponent. Stork again barely beat your #9 ranked player, whereas Bisu beat the #5 ranked player. Stork is by far more favored in his osl final, and most people expected him to win, far more than people expected bisu to come out on top in his msl. And that's why overall Bisu seems to have a tougher road than Stork, at least since the round of 8.
Oh..my. Bisu beating the historically-awful TvPer FBH 3:0 is NOWHERE as impressive as Stork beating Bisu HIMSELF 2-1. How in the world does your logic work? You are also assuming Stork wouldn't 3-0 FBH because FBH got "close" last time, when Stork did in fact 3-0 last time they met. Come on dude, be reasonable here. You are giving Bisu the upper hand based on the assumption that Stork wouldn't 3:0 some guy, when Stork beat....Bisu.
BeSt was on a ridiculous PvP winning streak when Stork beat him. BeSt was god-mode, would have given him the best PvPer title. Yes Free has been hot, but doesn't quite compare. PvP is also Free's shakiest matchup. Not even close.
Okay sure, I will give this one to Bisu since I do think Jangbi is a better player than Fantasy. But keep in mind that Fantasy was very hot at this time too. Furthermore, all the ranks that you are using (such as Fantasy #9) are THIS month's rankings. Fantasy was higher when Stork beat him. So was Best.
Hmm I wonder what teamliquid thinks of it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82741
Thanks avidkeystamper
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i dont care about this 2 they are playing omg fucking protoss imba mode so they can keep n1,2 what i ask is KAL OUT! or you still think he played "so godly" against stork? LOL
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 18:12 malongo wrote:
i dont care about this 2 they are playing omg fucking protoss imba mode so they can keep n1,2 what i ask is KAL OUT! or you still think he played "so godly" against stork? LOL
who said anything about kal playing godly against stork. either start reading the discussion before you post or stop imagining things in your head.
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well, after I read all their comments, I have to agree with them actually
#1: bisu's month > stork's month, CLEARLY
but, #2: I think stork is stronger overall than bisu
the hard part is that we have to make a balance between them. If only #1 was the factor, than the PRs would be really weird. Of course we cannot count only #2, because then JD would be higher all the way. ( ok maybe I`m a fanboy, but a few months ago he was clearly the stronger overall, and didn`t get the top spot for whatever reasons {forGG, Sea, and in 1 month flash})
and lol @ the poll. A LOT OF BISU FANBOYS! I mean c`mon, stork's osl road was faaaaaaaaaaar more harder than bisu's
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Wow OneOther I like that you defend yourself and respond to pretty much every post unlike fakesteve who ignores all the good arguments, but you should really clean up some of the garbage that obviously just wants to troll you.
Also, Stork or Bisus #1 or #2 is not set in stone imo. OSL is always bigger than MSL and Stork beat Bisu so for me Stork is #1 one more month.
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Bisu and Stork have equal chanses to get the first place. I think if FS would write the PR right now it would be Bisu, if Oneother than Stork. I might be wrong.
About whos path was harder:
Best+Bisu+Fantasy > Free+Jangbi+FBH
PvP+PvP+PvT for Stork < PvP, PvP, PvT for Bisu
that's how i see things, i would put Bisu 1st.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I don't understand why so many people are hating on OneOther, I like his PR better than FS and DJ's PR (which I thought were biased)...
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there were ppl who hated FS's PRs too, it can't be helped, there always gonna be haters and fans
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Firebathero for #10 spot next month!
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On November 23 2008 22:34 Sprite wrote:
Firebathero for #10 spot next month!
for what?
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On November 23 2008 22:46 Geo.Rion wrote:for what?
I think FBH is borderline PR material, depending on what happens the rest of the month. He is arguably the 2nd best Terran right now behind flash.
+ Show Spoiler +I think he should make it just for incorporating BC in a TvZ build(as opposed to BC for late game turtle-tactic). See Khan vs Lecaf Ace match for details.
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On November 23 2008 16:47 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 13:11 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 10:12 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind. Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine. As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now. Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry. If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that. God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please. You don't understand how the PR works. Bisu is 12-4 majorly because of MSL, which all counts towards his MSL win. Stork has played in 3 PL games since OSL win. It has always taken the previous month into account. Unless the #2 player does something that is greater than what the #1 has achieved last month, OR the #1 starts slowing down significantly, there won't be changes. Neither of that happened yet. Stork's OSL>Bisu's MSL. Stork dropped a couple PL games to great players, which hardly justifies anything. Now, let's say Bisu keeps excelling in Proleague/GOM/etc while Stork doesn't. Welcome to #1, Bisu. Be quiet if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least don't insult me. Let's suppose that you take last month's osl win from stork win into account, I disagree on stork's osl > bisu's msl. Suppose again your October's power rank is of significant weight and reason, then compare Stork's OSL road and Bisu's MSL road: Round of 8 Stork 2-1 Bisu Bisu 3-0 FBH Stork won a close series between himself and bisu, while bisu 3:0'd fbh. I wouldn't know if Stork could 3:0 fbh given he barely beat him the last time they met in a bo5, so I'll have to give Bisu this one. Round of 4 Stork 3-1 Best Bisu 3-1 Free ok Best is #7 on your Oct PR, and Free is #3 on your Oct PR. Best is known for having the best PvP even though free has been hotter, so I give stork this one. Finals Stork 3-2 Fantasy Bisu 3-1 Jangbi This one is no brainer. Bisu has by far the tougher opponent. Stork again barely beat your #9 ranked player, whereas Bisu beat the #5 ranked player. Stork is by far more favored in his osl final, and most people expected him to win, far more than people expected bisu to come out on top in his msl. And that's why overall Bisu seems to have a tougher road than Stork, at least since the round of 8. Oh..my. Bisu beating the historically-awful TvPer FBH 3:0 is NOWHERE as impressive as Stork beating Bisu HIMSELF 2-1. How in the world does your logic work? You are also assuming Stork wouldn't 3-0 FBH because FBH got "close" last time, when Stork did in fact 3-0 last time they met. Come on dude, be reasonable here. You are giving Bisu the upper hand based on the assumption that Stork wouldn't 3:0 some guy, when Stork beat....Bisu. BeSt was on a ridiculous PvP winning streak when Stork beat him. BeSt was god-mode, would have given him the best PvPer title. Yes Free has been hot, but doesn't quite compare. PvP is also Free's shakiest matchup. Not even close. Okay sure, I will give this one to Bisu since I do think Jangbi is a better player than Fantasy. But keep in mind that Fantasy was very hot at this time too. Furthermore, all the ranks that you are using (such as Fantasy #9) are THIS month's rankings. Fantasy was higher when Stork beat him. So was Best. Hmm I wonder what teamliquid thinks of it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82741Thanks avidkeystamper
I've thought this through again and yes I have to concede that Stork did go through a somewhat harder path in his OSL than Bisu. But I have to also contend that a harder OSL path last month should not mean as much as you claim.
Look, Bisu went past his opponents in MSL in a quite impressive manner. He could not choose his opponents. It's not his fault for their lack of caliber in their respective matchups, and why should bisu be penalized for something he has no control over? It's like even if he is the No. 1 player in the world, but because of the opponents he faces, no matter how hard he rapes them, somehow a harder path from last month's osl win means more.
If this msl and osl were to happen in the same time frame then Stork should claim the best player on earth title rather than Bisu. A reasonable methodology in the ranking should not put exactly the same weight on last month and this month I suppose? After all this is This Month's ranking. Stork's osl win was more impressive, but Bisu's msl win carries more weight does it not? I know it's what they incorporate in Kespa monthly rank except they employ a much bigger time horizon.
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On November 23 2008 05:14 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 04:11 theonemephisto wrote:
I'd have to argue that Bisu "gambling" was pure skill and brilliance. Bisu has a better understanding of what goes through the other person's head than almost anyone. Even if he isn't the best mechanical player, he probably is one of the best Bo5 players currently because he doesn't play each game, he plays the other player over the series. Jangbi had no chance in a Bo5, especially in a match-up that heavily rewards playing the metagame.
But on the next PR, I'd say that you at least have to give serious consideration to putting Bisu over Stork. Stork hasn't done anything since the OSL, while Bisu has been owning. I wouldn't say that Bisu should definitely be over Stork, but I do think it's a fairly close call. It's basically back to the old debate about how to take into account last month's accomplishments.
But Bisu really is on fire. Just keep in mind that the PR isn't about someone "deserving" a certain rank or anything, it's about ranking players in the context of the players around them. no, it's gambling and it's as simple as that. of course they are calculated risks, but they all worked out perfectly for them. that's pretty rare in PvP.
It works out perfectly for Bisu so much of the time that I don't really think it's gambling anymore. In Bisu's PvP, it isn't really that rare of a thing.
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On November 23 2008 23:26 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 22:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 23 2008 22:34 Sprite wrote:
Firebathero for #10 spot next month! for what? I think FBH is borderline PR material, depending on what happens the rest of the month. He is arguably the 2nd best Terran right now behind flash. + Show Spoiler +I think he should make it just for incorporating BC in a TvZ build(as opposed to BC for late game turtle-tactic). See Khan vs Lecaf Ace match for details.
+ Show Spoiler +they should just give Jaedong a break. Seriously, lecaf played jd in every game + in almost all ace matches. I know they haven`t got any other zerg, but at least from the ace matches ...
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On November 24 2008 00:59 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 23:26 baubo wrote:On November 23 2008 22:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 23 2008 22:34 Sprite wrote:
Firebathero for #10 spot next month! for what? I think FBH is borderline PR material, depending on what happens the rest of the month. He is arguably the 2nd best Terran right now behind flash. + Show Spoiler +I think he should make it just for incorporating BC in a TvZ build(as opposed to BC for late game turtle-tactic). See Khan vs Lecaf Ace match for details. + Show Spoiler +they should just give Jaedong a break. Seriously, lecaf played jd in every game + in almost all ace matches. I know they haven`t got any other zerg, but at least from the ace matches ...
+ Show Spoiler +when flash dipped into a slump months ago, KTF fans tried saying this but everyone kept saying "NOPE FLASH SUX ALL HYPE"
I know how you feel man.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 22:17 MrHoon wrote:
I don't understand why so many people are hating on OneOther, I like his PR better than FS and DJ's PR (which I thought were biased)...
Thanks Mr.Hoon!
Don't worry about it lol people get angry when there's conflicts of opinions. It happens, and I couldn't care less about what a couple people have to say about me because I know most people like + agree with the PR.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 23 2008 23:33 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 16:47 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 13:11 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 11:36 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 10:12 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 09:35 OneOther wrote:On November 23 2008 07:26 zhaoli86 wrote:On November 23 2008 05:15 OneOther wrote:
i see a legitimate case for putting bisu over stork, but as of right now, i think most of us can agree stork should stay at #1. losing two pl games isn't enough to negate what he was able to do in OSL and other pl games. your fucking outta your mind if you think that, honestly. Just make a poll and see what people on TL actually think who should be No.1 on PR next month, thanks. no, you are out of your mind Let me elaborate why you are out of your mind. Stork won the OSL, great. I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement than Bisu's MSL win. The final happened on Nov 1st and given the borderline position of that date, you made that the primary reason Stork was ranked No. 1 in October's PR, fine. As of November 1st, Stork is 4-4. In comparison, Bisu is 12-4. Stork is number 6 in ELO, and Bisu is number 1 right now. Stork didn't have many chances to play televised game to prove himself or he's still the number 1 player in the world, fine. But using the very reason he was ranked the first last month to say he's fucking number 1 in November? You think people are really going to buy that? The bulk of the OSL happened in October anyways so the decision to put the Nov 1st final into a Oct PR is reasonable, but his play in Nov does not scream he's the No.1 player in the world, sorry. If you are saying it is allowed to use last month's achievement as a primary criterion in the PR then I guess you have a fundamentally flawed methodology. We have Kespa for that. God can we get some reasonably competent people to write up the PR please. You don't understand how the PR works. Bisu is 12-4 majorly because of MSL, which all counts towards his MSL win. Stork has played in 3 PL games since OSL win. It has always taken the previous month into account. Unless the #2 player does something that is greater than what the #1 has achieved last month, OR the #1 starts slowing down significantly, there won't be changes. Neither of that happened yet. Stork's OSL>Bisu's MSL. Stork dropped a couple PL games to great players, which hardly justifies anything. Now, let's say Bisu keeps excelling in Proleague/GOM/etc while Stork doesn't. Welcome to #1, Bisu. Be quiet if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least don't insult me. Let's suppose that you take last month's osl win from stork win into account, I disagree on stork's osl > bisu's msl. Suppose again your October's power rank is of significant weight and reason, then compare Stork's OSL road and Bisu's MSL road: Round of 8 Stork 2-1 Bisu Bisu 3-0 FBH Stork won a close series between himself and bisu, while bisu 3:0'd fbh. I wouldn't know if Stork could 3:0 fbh given he barely beat him the last time they met in a bo5, so I'll have to give Bisu this one. Round of 4 Stork 3-1 Best Bisu 3-1 Free ok Best is #7 on your Oct PR, and Free is #3 on your Oct PR. Best is known for having the best PvP even though free has been hotter, so I give stork this one. Finals Stork 3-2 Fantasy Bisu 3-1 Jangbi This one is no brainer. Bisu has by far the tougher opponent. Stork again barely beat your #9 ranked player, whereas Bisu beat the #5 ranked player. Stork is by far more favored in his osl final, and most people expected him to win, far more than people expected bisu to come out on top in his msl. And that's why overall Bisu seems to have a tougher road than Stork, at least since the round of 8. Oh..my. Bisu beating the historically-awful TvPer FBH 3:0 is NOWHERE as impressive as Stork beating Bisu HIMSELF 2-1. How in the world does your logic work? You are also assuming Stork wouldn't 3-0 FBH because FBH got "close" last time, when Stork did in fact 3-0 last time they met. Come on dude, be reasonable here. You are giving Bisu the upper hand based on the assumption that Stork wouldn't 3:0 some guy, when Stork beat....Bisu. BeSt was on a ridiculous PvP winning streak when Stork beat him. BeSt was god-mode, would have given him the best PvPer title. Yes Free has been hot, but doesn't quite compare. PvP is also Free's shakiest matchup. Not even close. Okay sure, I will give this one to Bisu since I do think Jangbi is a better player than Fantasy. But keep in mind that Fantasy was very hot at this time too. Furthermore, all the ranks that you are using (such as Fantasy #9) are THIS month's rankings. Fantasy was higher when Stork beat him. So was Best. Hmm I wonder what teamliquid thinks of it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82741Thanks avidkeystamper I've thought this through again and yes I have to concede that Stork did go through a somewhat harder path in his OSL than Bisu. But I have to also contend that a harder OSL path last month should not mean as much as you claim. Look, Bisu went past his opponents in MSL in a quite impressive manner. He could not choose his opponents. It's not his fault for their lack of caliber in their respective matchups, and why should bisu be penalized for something he has no control over? It's like even if he is the No. 1 player in the world, but because of the opponents he faces, no matter how hard he rapes them, somehow a harder path from last month's osl win means more. If this msl and osl were to happen in the same time frame then Stork should claim the best player on earth title rather than Bisu. A reasonable methodology in the ranking should not put exactly the same weight on last month and this month I suppose? After all this is This Month's ranking. Stork's osl win was more impressive, but Bisu's msl win carries more weight does it not? I know it's what they incorporate in Kespa monthly rank except they employ a much bigger time horizon.
This is how I see it-
Power Rank should include the past leagues at least until new ones start and several games are played. That means Incruit OSL won't have much effect on the rankings when the new OSL season games have happened. Until then, however, I think it should carry equal weight as the MSL. After all, they are separated by a little more than two weeks and I don't think it's fair to take the older one out of equation, or take away its significance. Having said that, Stork had a harder OSL than Bisu did in MSL. Which is why I think Stork should remain at number one, unless Bisu keeps up his play while Stork continues dropping games.
Just because your opinion varies from mine, please don't call me an "incompetent person who is out of his fucking mind." Thanks
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On November 24 2008 02:07 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 22:17 MrHoon wrote:
I don't understand why so many people are hating on OneOther, I like his PR better than FS and DJ's PR (which I thought were biased)... Thanks Mr.Hoon! Don't worry about it lol it's just angry fanboys. It happens, and I couldn't care less about what a couple people have to say about me because I know most people like the PR.
I liked the DJetter's PR it almost always was hilarious to read . And i somewhat agree with all of his rankings . I like FS and OneOther's PRs too , sometimes i disagree with their player placements but they are doing a pretty good job .
On November 23 2008 21:52 Krigstar wrote:
Wow OneOther I like that you defend yourself and respond to pretty much every post unlike fakesteve who ignores all the good arguments, but you should really clean up some of the garbage that obviously just wants to troll you.
Also, Stork or Bisus #1 or #2 is not set in stone imo. OSL is always bigger than MSL and Stork beat Bisu so for me Stork is #1 one more month.
This...If someone starts trolling even thought he isn't right , althought even if he is right if he trolls he should still get a temp ban ....
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On November 17 2008 16:32 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2008 15:59 malongo wrote:On November 17 2008 02:02 raga4ka wrote:On November 16 2008 18:59 baubo wrote:On November 16 2008 18:30 Sentenal wrote:
There is no point in looking at stats from several months ago. MSL and OSL groups, which were the last time Bisu lost PvTs, were a while ago. Hell, that loss to Flash was from that Bunker Rush game on Medusa, it wasn't exactly a game that shows Bisu's skill in the MU one way or another.
Faulting Bisu now for those games, is like faulting Bisu for being ranked #8 on the power ranks a month ago. And the PvTs where he has played in recent history, he looked beastly.
I pointed that out to show that Stork isn't just good at PvT, he's pretty much invincible at it. One can argue that Bisu is anywhere from inconsistent to very good in the MU, but you cannot say that Stork is nothing less than Godly in it. I was just going by your standard of Bisu PvZ >> Stork's. Stork has been very good PvZ lately. But I did not disagree with you in the area because he hasn't shown anywhere close to the consistency that Bisu has. If Stork > Bisu PvT, then Bisu > Stork PvZ. The gap between them in these two MUs is about equal. You can either say they're both really close to each other in both MUs(going by very recent record) or both quite better than the other in them(going by long term history). Yeah but there are more T players in leagues then Zs , althought the best zerg players normaly wins the tournament . I think stork right now is invincible vs Terran and maybe only Flash can challenge him . Stork is better then Flash if he doesn't choke . On the other hand Bisu is not invincible in PvZ and the gap between their PvZ and PvT is different . Yes he is strong but he doesn't boot the record in PvZ that Stork does in PvT with much less games played and Bisu will be 50-50 % at best vs players like JD or July on which he hasn't or couldn't prove his superiorness in PvZ, but Stork will have an advantage vs the best TvP players if he doesn't choke badly.Even if he lost to Flash in recent leagues before he beated him as much . All i know is that July Imo is the favourite vs any and all protoss players . From all the games i've watched him play ZvP he just plays it by instinct and rapes . Jaedong normaly trys to outsmart players and take slight advantages that then uses them to rape - like drops or muta harras sneaking lings to harras that sort of things. And if he trys it and it doesn't work he gets behind a bit and fights an uphill battle vs toss players but still even behind his mechanics and game sense most time prevails even vs great PvZ players . The Bisu fans should start argueing that Bisu is better then Stork if/after he manages to beat JangBI , because from what i've saw in their PvP he'll struggle a lot . I wont argue here for stork or bisu but got to say that bisus pvz while not invincible is the best in the world, now and ever, his builds are smart, his timing is sick. In fact ive never seen a pvz where bisu lost bad, its always a good rush, a timed attack or a sick play from the zerg, but ive never seen bisu outplayed on pvz. only time i ever saw bisu outplayed was vs jaedong on blue storm and jaedong won by the slimmest of margins. it was a sick game, bisu was pretty soundly ahead until jaedong doom dropped with his whole army right as bisu moved out, forcing bisu back so jaedong could pump drones and make up economy.
You haven't watched Arena MSL did you ?
Bisu wasn't just outplayed he was badly raped then
On November 23 2008 13:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Poll: Which is a harder series for a protoss (overall)?( Vote): vs Backho, Fantasy, Sea, Bo3 vs Bisu, Bo5 vs Best, Bo5 vs Fantasy ( Vote): vs FBH, Much, Backho, Bo5 vs Hwasin, Bo5 vs Free, Bo5 vs Jangbi I worded it in an attempt to avoid bias. Probably unsuccessful, but whatever, it came to this.
After a few hours it looks like this:
On November 23 2008 13:32 Avidkeystamper wrote:Poll: Who had a harder Starleague?( Vote): Bisu: Much, FBH, Backho, Hwasin, FBH, Free, Jangbi ( Vote): Stork: Backho, Sea, Fantasy, Bisu, Best, Fantasy
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On November 24 2008 01:38 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 00:59 Jaeden wrote:On November 23 2008 23:26 baubo wrote:On November 23 2008 22:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 23 2008 22:34 Sprite wrote:
Firebathero for #10 spot next month! for what? I think FBH is borderline PR material, depending on what happens the rest of the month. He is arguably the 2nd best Terran right now behind flash. + Show Spoiler +I think he should make it just for incorporating BC in a TvZ build(as opposed to BC for late game turtle-tactic). See Khan vs Lecaf Ace match for details. + Show Spoiler +they should just give Jaedong a break. Seriously, lecaf played jd in every game + in almost all ace matches. I know they haven`t got any other zerg, but at least from the ace matches ... + Show Spoiler +when flash dipped into a slump months ago, KTF fans tried saying this but everyone kept saying "NOPE FLASH SUX ALL HYPE"
I know how you feel man.
+ Show Spoiler +I actually don't think Jaedong has the "overworked" excuse. The top players ALL play a lot of games. In fact, Jaedong played the least amount of games BY FAR among the top players over the past month. Jaedong's simply not performing recently.
Flash, I agree, was overworked tremendously last season. And he still has a pretty heavy workload this season too.
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On November 24 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 01:38 MrHoon wrote:On November 24 2008 00:59 Jaeden wrote:On November 23 2008 23:26 baubo wrote:On November 23 2008 22:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 23 2008 22:34 Sprite wrote:
Firebathero for #10 spot next month! for what? I think FBH is borderline PR material, depending on what happens the rest of the month. He is arguably the 2nd best Terran right now behind flash. + Show Spoiler +I think he should make it just for incorporating BC in a TvZ build(as opposed to BC for late game turtle-tactic). See Khan vs Lecaf Ace match for details. + Show Spoiler +they should just give Jaedong a break. Seriously, lecaf played jd in every game + in almost all ace matches. I know they haven`t got any other zerg, but at least from the ace matches ... + Show Spoiler +when flash dipped into a slump months ago, KTF fans tried saying this but everyone kept saying "NOPE FLASH SUX ALL HYPE"
I know how you feel man. + Show Spoiler +I actually don't think Jaedong has the "overworked" excuse. The top players ALL play a lot of games. In fact, Jaedong played the least amount of games BY FAR among the top players over the past month. Jaedong's simply not performing recently.
Flash, I agree, was overworked tremendously last season. And he still has a pretty heavy workload this season too.
u are wrong dude. They practice alot of games, but against a single MU. It`s hard to practice against 2 different type of games in one day. There are A LOT of examples. JD played in every single game. + he played in almost all ace matches; if u say that JD play only a few games, u are faaaaaaaaar from bein` right.
On November 24 2008 02:14 OneOther wrote:This is how I see it- Power Rank should include the past leagues until new ones start. That means Incruit OSL won't have much effect on the rankings when the new OSL season starts. Until then, however, I think it should carry equal weight as the MSL. After all, they are separated by a little more than two weeks and I don't think it's fair to take the older one out of equation, or take away its significance. Having said that, Stork had a harder OSL than Bisu did in MSL. Which is why I think Stork should remain at number one, unless Bisu keeps up his play while Stork continues dropping games. Just because your opinion varies from mine, please don't call me an "incompetent person who is out of his fucking mind." Thanks
I agree with this. If it was the other way, then one month we would have a PR with 10 gamers, and the next month we could have one with 8 different ones, just because the rest didn`t play in any individual league
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Yeah, new season is gonna start soon! All hopes will be revived!
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Lecaf vs Samsung spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +I think Firebathero should get like rank 6-7 next PR, seriously his TvT is among the best out there, his TvZ is obviously top notch and his TvP has been improved vastly
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 06:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Lecaf vs Samsung spoiler. + Show Spoiler +I think Firebathero should get like rank 6-7 next PR, seriously his TvT is among the best out there, his TvZ is obviously top notch and his TvP has been improved vastly
FBH has great TvZ and TvT (he always has) but idk if that's enough to move him to #6 or 7. Maybe near the bottom end, most likely either #9 or #10, because his 0-3 against Bisu has to be considered.
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On November 24 2008 06:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Lecaf vs Samsung spoiler. + Show Spoiler +I think Firebathero should get like rank 6-7 next PR, seriously his TvT is among the best out there, his TvZ is obviously top notch and his TvP has been improved vastly
Well Yeah lets replace Fantasy and ForGG with some fresh terrans ...I would actually just swap FBH , because i can't think of an other terran who is doing above average maybe Leta ? To bad my favourite two terrans Mind and Iris aren't doing too well .
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United States10774 Posts
Discussion Topic: Where should Jaedong be next month?
My thoughts: Somewhere between #7-9.
He should definitely be dropped because he's still under-performing.
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On November 24 2008 07:20 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 06:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Lecaf vs Samsung spoiler. + Show Spoiler +I think Firebathero should get like rank 6-7 next PR, seriously his TvT is among the best out there, his TvZ is obviously top notch and his TvP has been improved vastly FBH has great TvZ and TvT (he always has) but idk if that's enough to move him to #6 or 7. Maybe near the bottom end, most likely either #9 or #10, because his 0-3 against Bisu has to be considered.
Yes, although Bisu is nr 1 or 2 next month probably, so losing to him in a semis isn't really that bad. Maybe he choked.
Only flash should be above him as a terran though. For example stork was quite high in the PR even when his PvZ was quite avarage..
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9070 Posts
On November 24 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:
Discussion Topic: Where should Jaedong be next month?
My thoughts: Somewhere between #7-9.
He should definitely be dropped because he's still under-performing.
7 is justified I guess, having in mind the ppl above him should be Stork, Bisu, JangBi,free, Flash, kal
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On November 24 2008 07:50 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:
Discussion Topic: Where should Jaedong be next month?
My thoughts: Somewhere between #7-9.
He should definitely be dropped because he's still under-performing. 7 is justified I guess, having in mind the ppl above him should be Stork, Bisu, JangBi,free, Flash, kal
Kal is questionable, but justified in the long run, so yeah, 7th would be good.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
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On November 24 2008 08:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
Does this mean you're writing the next PR?
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 08:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
Have you been watching his games?
Why would Jaedong be above Kal? That 5-2 (4-2 in Proleague during November, don't know where you are getting the 5-2 from) record doesn't mean shit when it's against players like Sunny, Soo, and Shark. They all suck, and they suck whole a lot vs Zerg. Kal should be above Jaedong because he beat JD and Stork in crucial ace matches. That sure sounds better than Jaedong losing ace matches and stomping no names like Sunny and Soo?
Jangbi needs to above Jaedong, too. He played very well against Kal and although he lost to Bisu in the finals, he is certainly playing better than Jaedong. Jangbi didn't know how to lose prior to the the Bisu match. I don't think a loss to one of the best players right now should be penalized more than Jaedong dropping games left and right.
Jaedong above Flash? What?! Flash leads Proleague with the best record and on a six win streak, while Jaedong is at 9-5.I don't see how Jaedong beating him with early pool lings verses 14 CC in early October should put him at a higher spot. Jaedong is anything but playing exceedingly well. Everyone can see it when they watch him play. It's obvious.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 09:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
No, I am not putting any emphasis on the name value. I am just observing the games and making logical conclusions.
First of all, no matter how much you want to disagree with this, Jaedong is not playing at the same level. Getting spanked by FBH like that (it wasn't cheese win or anything) is not something a normal Jaedong would do. If you haven't watched this game, I highly recommend you do. His muta micro was subar - in fact pretty awful if you want me to be honest - losing all but one after minimal harassment. Then he loses three lurkers by burrowing them in worst possible location and getting surrounded by marines. Even his defiler management wasn't the same, constantly losing expos when he could have saved them with dark swarm. Don't get me wrong, FBH is awesome at TvZ, but Jaedong's play dropped. It's a fact. Now, let's move on to the ace match vs Kal. If anything, Jaedong needs to be penalized for this pathetic game. There is no way in hell he would have lost this game if he hasn't been under-performing. Kal cuts probes, and does a shuttle/2 reaver + speed zealots attack. Jaedong snipes the shuttle and both reavers, and Kal suicides his zealots. Note that this game is on Andromeda, a Zerg favored map in ZvP. Then what does he do? Jaedong decides to spend all the resources on 24 lurkers and suicides them all into dragoons and high templars. His crappy play in these two crucial games alone justify, in my opinion, a lowered placement for him. You call this "consistent highest level of pro StarCraft?" If he can only show that verses terrible players like Shark, Soo, and Sunny, your argument fails. He needs to be able to show it verses all players, win or lose.
Secondly, I disagree with mostly everything you said about Jangbi and Kal. Jangbi's PvP may not be as good as his PvT and PvZ, (which are both outstanding) but he has vastly improved in this matchup. Jangbi did lose to Backho 1-2 in the EVER OSL, but he has since beaten very good Protoss players like Stork, Free, Much, and Kal. His PvP is NOT terrible. You are not giving this guy enough credit for what he has been doing. Prior to his loss against Bisu, he was pretty much undefeated in MSL and doing excellent in Proleague, while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro. And while I do agree Kal is inconsistent in general, his win verses Jaedong was closer to Jaedong playing horribly than Kal playing better than he usually does. Kal stepped up and beat Stork + Jaedong in _crucial_ ace matches. He deserves a lot of props for that.
Jangbi and Kal are both very good, and let's not label their PvP terrible. They are not. Sure, their PvP may not be as good compared to the other top Protoss players of this golden age of Toss such as BeSt, Stork, and Bisu, but they're still very solid. Both of these guys have been playing great, certainly better than Jaedong.
I haven't watched Flash's games so I won't comment on them.
In conclusion, I think Jangbi and Kal should be placed higher than Jaedong not because they are the best players around (I don't think they are better than they actually are) but because Jaedong has not been playing at the same level. Jangbi and Kal, on the other hand, have won crucial matches and been playing solidly for a while now.
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somehow i find that jaedong plays godly earlygame recently but lacks the lategame dominance he is known for. Hmm..
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Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
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On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
yea but in what manner did he beat yarnc, like were they both playing horribly that time or were both playing amazingly
i have no clue seeing as i havent watched those games
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On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
To be fair he pretty much raped everyone on his road to the finals. Other than Kal, I don't think any of his games were even close. You could argue that he might not have been the 2nd best player, but he's definitely on par with Free, with Stork being the only unknown due to the OSL/WCG schedule conflicts.
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On November 24 2008 13:48 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP. To be fair he pretty much raped everyone on his road to the finals. Other than Kal, I don't think any of his games were even close. You could argue that he might not have been the 2nd best player, but he's definitely on par with Free, with Stork being the only unknown due to the OSL/WCG schedule conflicts.
Im pretty sure that was luxury who beat Bisu. Yeah, he shouldve had to have played Flash in his group ro8, but he ended up crashing out to Yarnc.
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Ok I don't want to involve myself into this Jaedong discussion again between FS and oneother but let me just let you know that the FBH win over Jaedong DID involve cheese. Although it was not critical, it was cheese that disturbed his build timing and forced him to make early den and disturbed his mentality.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 16:14 F13 wrote:
Ok I don't want to involve myself into this Jaedong discussion again between FS and oneother but let me just let you know that the FBH win over Jaedong DID involve cheese. Although it was not critical, it was cheese that disturbed his build timing and forced him to make early den and disturbed his mentality.
Okay then it was a failed cheese more than anything. It would not matter either way because FBH did not gain any advantage from it, so my argument stands. FBH planned to float and land it in JD's base, but got caught before it even finished building. It put Jaedong ahead. Sure, he had to make a hydra den, but who cares? He teched lair right away, while pumping a lot of drones. FBH, on the other hand, had slow expo, slow academy, slow rax, slow everything. Jaedong also gained a huge advantage by wiping out FBH's initial marine/medic force with lings, which leaves a nice timing for muta harassment. At this point, it was obvious Jaedong had a comfortable lead. Then JD did things he would have not done two months ago, just like he did in the game vs Kal. Under-performing.
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I still cant believe how FBH's army raped the second lingwave like that... it was seriously wierd. If that wave would have killed rines like the first one it would have been over right there.
I really thought JD would win that game, he simply played not so good that lategame.
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hehe
AnOth3rDAy = OneOther
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United States10774 Posts
*waits for ambit!ous1 to throw more childish, personal insults*
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 17:42 ambit!ous1 wrote:hehe AnOth3rDAy = OneOther
Wow, most coherent statement you have made so far in this thread!
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I just have to involve myself in this conversation again. I can accept putting Jangbi above Jaedong,because well,he was an MSL fianlist,lost due to bad luck,bla bla(bullshit,Bisu was just better than him),good in PL,still in Gom,stuff like that. Somehow I can even understand putting Flash above JD,because,well,he is more "consistent",but there is just no way Kal should be higher than JD. If you argue like this,that he should be above JD,because he beat him,than you should put Firebathero and even Backho above Kal,because they beat him. It is bullshit. Yes,Kal eat Jaedong once. He did that once in their MSL finals too,and after that,JD beat him three times. One game says nothing. I come again with the old clishe,if they would meet,Jaedong would own him. And who gives a shit if he wins more ace than JD. If you win before that,you don't have to play ace match. Beating Luxury is not impressive. Beating Jaedong was really impressive,but it's not enough to put him above Jaedong. Kal is not even close to hot. He can beat the best player in the world,but he is not dominating,not a champion. And I say my opinion about Bisu too. I'm even more biased towards Bisu than I am towards JD,and I fucking hate Stork. But Bisu didn't dominate this month as Stork did in the last month,and it is not Stork's fault,that did OSL ended sooner,than the MSL. How can you know,that if the OSL would still be going,Stork wouldn't be dominating it? And Stork does well in gom and pl,so I see no reason just yet to put Bisu above Stork. I really hope,that the next month will be something else tho.
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United States10774 Posts
Darth Peter:
Now, I don't want to put Kal very high- he lost badly verses Jangbi. However, he needs to be above Jaedong. OF COURSE I am not basing it off one game, where did you get the idea that I was? And please stop bringing ancient games into discussion.
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Why in the world should Jaedong be above Kal?
I tell you again that your guess of Jaedong owning Kal next time they play is not taken into account. How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play?
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My rank at this point of time would be.
1. Stork-he dominaed in the last month,unfortunately you can't drop him because he played few games.
2. Bisu-needs no explanation
3. Free-Free lost to Bisu,but nearly everybody loses to Bisu these days,and he is still much more impressive than Jangbi.
4. Jaedong- I don't care if Jangbi played MSL finals,he lost to the first really good player he met there,and there is no proof that he would have beaten Free,the guy who eliminated JD. JD is solid in the Gom,like Jangbi,and I don't remember Jangbi playing too much in the PL,so you can't tell that his stats would be better had he been playing the same number of matches and against the same caliber of opponents.
5. Jangbi-I already said my opinion about him.
6. Flash
7. Best-they both hadn't done anything this month,and won't really have the chance to do in the rest of the month,so I don't think that they can be ranked higher,but they can't be ranked lower either.
8. Pusan- Pusan is really,really fucking good these days.
9. Firebathero- He is very solid in the PL and has one of the best T v Z and T v T and his T v P is improving.
10. Savior- The Maestro deserves a ranking. He had some of the most entertaining games this month,losing only to Free in a very close series.
Maybe Savior is exchangeable with Calm,but idk,I think the Maestro is more impressive.
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United States10774 Posts
But anyways, I am gonna be gone til December 6th due to some studies.
EDIT: OR NOT. I must keep defending myself in the PR thread. I will find time ;D
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On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play?
For pretty long
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 18:20 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play? For pretty long
Okay I guess I won't stop you!
Kal needs to be above Jaedong though.
edit: I don't even like Kal. I hate Kal.
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next PR will obviously be
1 Bogus
2 Cuteangel
3 backho
4 Jinnam
5 poo
rest wont matter
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On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
Darth Peter:
Now, I don't want to put Kal very high- he lost badly verses Jangbi. However, he needs to be above Jaedong. OF COURSE I am not basing it off one game, where did you get the idea that I was? And please stop bringing ancient games into discussion.
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Why in the world should Jaedong be above Kal?
I tell you again that your guess of Jaedong owning Kal next time they play is not taken into account. How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play?
Be reasonable, if you mention that Andromeda is a Zerg favorite map (stats claim this, i disagree a bit), than mention must be made on Harmony being a Terran heaven. You disagree with me seeing that the TvZ stat is even there? Read Artosis' writeup about the map, it's clearly T favoring, the fact that JD 9pooled Flash's 14CC, Sunny got raped twice by superior players, and Luxury owned a pushover doesnt makes that map a balanced one. You can't use the ace loss against FBH as an argument JD is playing bad. FBH, one of the best, if not the best TvZ player, playing on an easy map for Terran, preparing an innovative, clever build, the match is back and for, 30 minutes long, the terran wins. OK, he fucked up against Kal, but he payed really well at the start, then due to a fatal mistakes, AND Kal's godly micro on a major battle the game turned around.
Don't get me wrong, i don't say that JD must be placed on idontknowwhich position. Seriously, i do not care. If he isn't nr 1, or maybe a close nr 2 than it means he's underpreforming, and i'm not satisfied with it. JD being place on 4th or 8th? Yes thats a huge difference, but nor for me, i want to see him nr 1 or 2, if he doesnt deserves it i dont start arguing about how high he should be placed.
To FAKESTEVE: Will you write the next PR? Or you passed the right to Oneother?
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On November 24 2008 18:18 Darth Peter wrote:
My rank at this point of time would be.
1. Stork-he dominaed in the last month,unfortunately you can't drop him because he played few games.
2. Bisu-needs no explanation
3. Free-Free lost to Bisu,but nearly everybody loses to Bisu these days,and he is still much more impressive than Jangbi.
4. Jaedong- I don't care if Jangbi played MSL finals,he lost to the first really good player he met there,and there is no proof that he would have beaten Free,the guy who eliminated JD. JD is solid in the Gom,like Jangbi,and I don't remember Jangbi playing too much in the PL,so you can't tell that his stats would be better had he been playing the same number of matches and against the same caliber of opponents.
5. Jangbi-I already said my opinion about him.
6. Flash
7. Best-they both hadn't done anything this month,and won't really have the chance to do in the rest of the month,so I don't think that they can be ranked higher,but they can't be ranked lower either.
8. Pusan- Pusan is really,really fucking good these days.
9. Firebathero- He is very solid in the PL and has one of the best T v Z and T v T and his T v P is improving.
10. Savior- The Maestro deserves a ranking. He had some of the most entertaining games this month,losing only to Free in a very close series.
Maybe Savior is exchangeable with Calm,but idk,I think the Maestro is more impressive.
you just left out Kal, Peter
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Oops,your right,I just wanted to put Savior there so badly that eventually Kal slipped my mind
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 21:36 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
Darth Peter:
Now, I don't want to put Kal very high- he lost badly verses Jangbi. However, he needs to be above Jaedong. OF COURSE I am not basing it off one game, where did you get the idea that I was? And please stop bringing ancient games into discussion.
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Why in the world should Jaedong be above Kal?
I tell you again that your guess of Jaedong owning Kal next time they play is not taken into account. How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play? Be reasonable, if you mention that Andromeda is a Zerg favorite map (stats claim this, i disagree a bit), than mention must be made on Harmony being a Terran heaven. You disagree with me seeing that the TvZ stat is even there? Read Artosis' writeup about the map, it's clearly T favoring, the fact that JD 9pooled Flash's 14CC, Sunny got raped twice by superior players, and Luxury owned a pushover doesnt makes that map a balanced one. You can't use the ace loss against FBH as an argument JD is playing bad. FBH, one of the best, if not the best TvZ player, playing on an easy map for Terran, preparing an innovative, clever build, the match is back and for, 30 minutes long, the terran wins. OK, he fucked up against Kal, but he payed really well at the start, then due to a fatal mistakes, AND Kal's godly micro on a major battle the game turned around. placed.
You guys are missing my point. Watch the games, I am saying JD should be lower because he SUCKED. In both games vs FBH and KAL he had an advantage which he managed to blow by doing STUPID things, hence the under-performing. I am no longer talking about statistics alone. Stop telling me FBH and Kal are excellent verses Zerg, because I KNOW. It's the manner that Jaedong played, and he played terribly. In crucial ace matches.
Kal did the exact opposite.
Anyways, I really gotta stop posting for a bit because it's taking too much time.
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Jaedong would have won vs kal if he didnt make that 1 mistake though (1000 lurkers borrowed in middle of goon+temp group)
other than that he played well!
anyway i stick to what i said earlier, jaedong is like a god earlygame nowadays. Does things that makes u think he will rape EASY and then somehow loses some games anyway, its really annoying
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United States10774 Posts
On November 25 2008 00:10 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaedong would have won vs kal if he didnt make that 1 mistake though (1000 lurkers borrowed in middle of goon+temp group)
other than that he played well!
anyway i stick to what i said earlier, jaedong is like a god earlygame nowadays. Does things that makes u think he will rape EASY and then somehow loses some games anyway, its really annoying
okay you can say that for almost every game.
Jaedong has a HUGE lead and he loses the ace match by doing stupid stuff. hence the penalty.
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On November 25 2008 00:20 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 00:10 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaedong would have won vs kal if he didnt make that 1 mistake though (1000 lurkers borrowed in middle of goon+temp group)
other than that he played well!
anyway i stick to what i said earlier, jaedong is like a god earlygame nowadays. Does things that makes u think he will rape EASY and then somehow loses some games anyway, its really annoying okay you can say that for almost every game. Jaedong has a HUGE lead and he loses the ace match by doing stupid stuff. hence some penalty.
exactly, glad we agree
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United States10774 Posts
Anyways I am not going to post (at least try to) until Dec. 6th. Don't reply to me, so I don't have to reply back!
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you wont make it! :O
edit: nn answer keke
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On November 25 2008 00:03 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 21:36 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
Darth Peter:
Now, I don't want to put Kal very high- he lost badly verses Jangbi. However, he needs to be above Jaedong. OF COURSE I am not basing it off one game, where did you get the idea that I was? And please stop bringing ancient games into discussion.
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Why in the world should Jaedong be above Kal?
I tell you again that your guess of Jaedong owning Kal next time they play is not taken into account. How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play? Be reasonable, if you mention that Andromeda is a Zerg favorite map (stats claim this, i disagree a bit), than mention must be made on Harmony being a Terran heaven. You disagree with me seeing that the TvZ stat is even there? Read Artosis' writeup about the map, it's clearly T favoring, the fact that JD 9pooled Flash's 14CC, Sunny got raped twice by superior players, and Luxury owned a pushover doesnt makes that map a balanced one. You can't use the ace loss against FBH as an argument JD is playing bad. FBH, one of the best, if not the best TvZ player, playing on an easy map for Terran, preparing an innovative, clever build, the match is back and for, 30 minutes long, the terran wins. OK, he fucked up against Kal, but he payed really well at the start, then due to a fatal mistakes, AND Kal's godly micro on a major battle the game turned around. placed. You guys are missing my point. Watch the games, I am saying JD should be lower because he SUCKED. In both games vs FBH and KAL he had an advantage which he managed to blow by doing STUPID things, hence the under-performing. I am no longer talking about statistics alone. Stop telling me FBH and Kal are excellent verses Zerg, because I KNOW. It's the manner that Jaedong played, and he played terribly. In crucial ace matches. Kal did the exact opposite. Anyways, I really gotta stop posting for a bit because it's taking too much time.
First of all i didn't say anything about he being higher. Against Kal he fucked up, maybe he got overconfident, or who knows. Against FBH he didn't gain a huge lead, no way, he survived the cheese with bearable losses, he lost a few lings drones and had to change his bo. About his muta micro, FBH really cornered those mutas in a fashon that i haven't seen in quite a while against someone who has very good mutamicro. He had some wrong descisions. MAN! Everybody has in every game, just when you loose it's easier to focus point out mistakes, and when you face an unfamiliar build it's natural to commit more. He had some very good moves, if you really saw that game you could tell that there were two top notch players fighting, and the one with better preparation took the win in a long game. Don't tell me he's playing crappy, not in those games. he could have won, yet lost? Yeah, that's why he isn't and will not be this time in the top 3.
sry i just noticed u worte 10 minuts ago to us to not reply, sry didn't saw it.
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Jaedong looks to be losing his shape rapidly. In the last game JD's 3rd gas was late and 2 gas vs 2 gas for long. FBH knows he surely won that game at 10minutes mark when all the mutas are dead before even picking out 6 marines, hence his usual self. He used the extra gas to pump vessels and bc to ridicule. Against Kal he would not have won if the 1000 lurkers had been in any other position which force him to engage. Kal has eco and full tech, once protoss gets 3rd and 4th up in andromeda they are unstoppable. JD just didn't do enough damage early.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 25 2008 00:40 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 00:03 OneOther wrote:On November 24 2008 21:36 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 24 2008 18:17 OneOther wrote:
Darth Peter:
Now, I don't want to put Kal very high- he lost badly verses Jangbi. However, he needs to be above Jaedong. OF COURSE I am not basing it off one game, where did you get the idea that I was? And please stop bringing ancient games into discussion.
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Why in the world should Jaedong be above Kal?
I tell you again that your guess of Jaedong owning Kal next time they play is not taken into account. How long will you keep saying Jaedong will beat player A and B and C next time they play? Be reasonable, if you mention that Andromeda is a Zerg favorite map (stats claim this, i disagree a bit), than mention must be made on Harmony being a Terran heaven. You disagree with me seeing that the TvZ stat is even there? Read Artosis' writeup about the map, it's clearly T favoring, the fact that JD 9pooled Flash's 14CC, Sunny got raped twice by superior players, and Luxury owned a pushover doesnt makes that map a balanced one. You can't use the ace loss against FBH as an argument JD is playing bad. FBH, one of the best, if not the best TvZ player, playing on an easy map for Terran, preparing an innovative, clever build, the match is back and for, 30 minutes long, the terran wins. OK, he fucked up against Kal, but he payed really well at the start, then due to a fatal mistakes, AND Kal's godly micro on a major battle the game turned around. placed. You guys are missing my point. Watch the games, I am saying JD should be lower because he SUCKED. In both games vs FBH and KAL he had an advantage which he managed to blow by doing STUPID things, hence the under-performing. I am no longer talking about statistics alone. Stop telling me FBH and Kal are excellent verses Zerg, because I KNOW. It's the manner that Jaedong played, and he played terribly. In crucial ace matches. Kal did the exact opposite. Anyways, I really gotta stop posting for a bit because it's taking too much time. First of all i didn't say anything about he being higher. Against Kal he fucked up, maybe he got overconfident, or who knows. Against FBH he didn't gain a huge lead, no way, he survived the cheese with bearable losses, he lost a few lings drones and had to change his bo. About his muta micro, FBH really cornered those mutas in a fashon that i haven't seen in quite a while against someone who has very good mutamicro. He had some wrong descisions. MAN! Everybody has in every game, just when you loose it's easier to focus point out mistakes, and when you face an unfamiliar build it's natural to commit more. He had some very good moves, if you really saw that game you could tell that there were two top notch players fighting, and the one with better preparation took the win in a long game. Don't tell me he's playing crappy, not in those games. he could have won, yet lost? Yeah, that's why he isn't and will not be this time in the top 3. sry i just noticed u worte 10 minuts ago to us to not reply, sry didn't saw it.
Okay I am gonna have to reply to this. Jaedong was in a very, very good shape against FBH. FBH floating Factory strategy completely failed, all that Jaedong lost was one drone and a couple lings, while FBH had slow expo, sub-ideal SCV count, slow acad, slow ebay upgrade, and slow rax. Jaedong really did have a comfortable lead. Not only that, he raped FBH's initial marine and medic force while taking an expo, right before mutas. That is THE ideal situation for Zerg. Then he blew it.
Whatever the reason may be, he just sucked against Kal. It was nothing but ugly. That makes me wanna put Kal higher is that JD did these stupid things in ace matches, and I think that needs to be penalized. Jaedong is not playing at the high consistent level he used to play ALWAYS play at, win or lose.
It's not about the preparation; it's about Jaedong's dropped game play. I don't see how you can deny from watching those two ace matches. Those were crucial games he should have won, yet he managed to lose. Jaedong is not playing the same way he was two months ago, like it or not. I hate to reiterate, but Kal did the exact opposite and won when he needed to for the team - against Stork and JD himself.
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Regardless the power rank, all hail to stork the new no.1 next month. All the new maps are favourable to P and bad for Z which explains u will see stork and bisu trading no.1 and no.2 for next few months. Initially they thought Harmony and Chupung are good TvP. But some new strategies such as proxy gate cheese or gas steal make it very bad for TvP for such short maps. The small route for tanks make storms imba too.
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Kal is crazy inconsistent, I mean, he drops games not because of mistakes but he just looks bad in some games and good in others.
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OneOther, I need an honest answer: "do you dislike JD?" I guess the answer is "yes", at least from ur posts
anyway, kal always beat stork, and aside from that, he didn`t have a phenomenal moth: he beat jd(in a really good game, grats for him) and oversky, and lost to FBH and jangbi.
Also I have to say once again, it seemed that u didn`t read my post: jd was heavily overplayed in ProLeague.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 25 2008 05:15 Jaeden wrote:OneOther, I need an honest answer: "do you dislike JD?" I guess the answer is "yes", at least from ur posts anyway, kal always beat stork, and aside from that, he didn`t have a phenomenal moth: he beat jd(in a really good game, grats for him) and oversky, and lost to FBH and jangbi. Also I have to say once again, it seemed that u didn`t read my post: jd was heavily overplayed in ProLeague.
Haha you guys make it so hard for me to not post
To answer your question, I dislike Kal and Jaedong equally. So it's not favoritism that makes me think Kal should be above Jaedong.
For this reason:
Let's take a look at them:
Kal -
MSL Semifinalist (I am not taking this too much into consideration)
Crucial ace match victory vs Stork
Crucial ace match victory vs Jaedong
Jaedong -
Blows his advantage and loses vs FBH, Ace match loss. (Bad play)
Blows a HUGE advantage and loses vs Kal on a ZERG FAVORED map, Ace match loss. (Terrible play)
Jaedong has not been himself, no matter what you want to believe. I understand what you are saying about Jaedong being overplayed, but Kal had semifinals while JD didn't. It also doesn't justify JD getting big advantages and blowing them with terrible plays.
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One thing that has to be said- Im not totally sure about all the rankings- but Jangbi should take Free's spot in the top 3.
Jaedong can drop to all hell for all I care, no mercy for the weak.
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On November 25 2008 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote:One thing that has to be said- Im not totally sure about all the rankings- but Jangbi should take Free's spot in the top 3.
I really hope this was a joke. Free is a million times more better than Jangbi. He had a far more difficult road in MSL,while carrying the Woongjin Stars in the Proleague. He beat Savior in the Gom,and Savior played really awesome in those matches. He lost only to Bisu,with the same score as Jangbi,and shown incredible play in Pv T and P v Z,while Jangbi didn't really shine in any matchups. Come on,you can't consider beating Yarnc 5 times an impressive feat. Neither is beating Kal,Kal is not that good in the matchup. I know,people will come back at me that,"How dare you say that,he beat Stork I don't know how many times". I don't give a fuck. He lost to Backho and played shit against Jangbi. So to sum it all up,I apologise for writing such a long post about an obvious joke and I know I don't have a good sense of humour.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
Jangbi and Jaedong shouldn't be in the top 5 imo.
1. Stork
2. Bisu
3. Flash (9-1 in his last 10)
4. Free
5. Best
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On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote:One thing that has to be said- Im not totally sure about all the rankings- but Jangbi should take Free's spot in the top 3. I really hope this was a joke. Free is a million times more better than Jangbi. He had a far more difficult road in MSL, Free had a hard opponnent in Jaedong, who gave him the third game. Otherwise their MSL's were identical in difficulity- except that Jangbi went to that final stage, and free did not. Jangbi also looked GOOD against Bisu, while free did not. On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote:while carrying the Woongjin Stars in the Proleague. Jangbi has done nothing for Khan in PL, your totally right...On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote: He beat Savior in the Gom,and Savior played really awesome in those matches. He lost only to Bisu,with the same score as Jangbi,and shown incredible play in Pv T and P v Z,while Jangbi didn't really shine in any matchups. Yeah 65% in pvt and 61% in pvz...Jangbi is such a newb, hes got like no good match ups. Right? Are you fucking dumb buddy? Jangbi is hot as hell in all match ups, and just dismantled Iris straight after losing in the finals, with virtually no preparation. Jangbi has some of the best pvt and pvz out there, and hes far more capable than Free is in pvp. On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote:Come on,you can't consider beating Yarnc 5 times an impressive feat. And beating Nada four times is?On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote: Neither is beating Kal,Kal is not that good in the matchup. I know,people will come back at me that,"How dare you say that,he beat Stork I don't know how many times". I don't give a fuck. He lost to Backho and played shit against Jangbi. Kal is inconsistent. He played bad. That doesn't mean Jangbi didn't play REALLY good. Hell Nada played like total ass in Free's quarter finals, Jaedong played like ass in game 1 and 3 against Free. Are you kidding me? On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote: So to sum it all up,I apologise for writing such a long post about an obvious joke and I know I don't have a good sense of humour. LOL.
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actually free IS better than jangbi...
oh and flash doesn`t deserve #3, idontcare what`s his record in proleague
EDIT: maybe Pusan should be #3, 7-1 in proleague, eh ?
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United States10774 Posts
On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote:One thing that has to be said- Im not totally sure about all the rankings- but Jangbi should take Free's spot in the top 3. I really hope this was a joke. Free is a million times more better than Jangbi. He had a far more difficult road in MSL,while carrying the Woongjin Stars in the Proleague. He beat Savior in the Gom,and Savior played really awesome in those matches. He lost only to Bisu,with the same score as Jangbi,and shown incredible play in Pv T and P v Z,while Jangbi didn't really shine in any matchups. Come on,you can't consider beating Yarnc 5 times an impressive feat. Neither is beating Kal,Kal is not that good in the matchup. I know,people will come back at me that,"How dare you say that,he beat Stork I don't know how many times". I don't give a fuck. He lost to Backho and played shit against Jangbi. So to sum it all up,I apologise for writing such a long post about an obvious joke and I know I don't have a good sense of humour.
Jangbi is better than Free at PvT. I would give PvZ to Free. They are even at PvP.
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On November 25 2008 08:55 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 06:52 Darth Peter wrote:On November 25 2008 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote:One thing that has to be said- Im not totally sure about all the rankings- but Jangbi should take Free's spot in the top 3. I really hope this was a joke. Free is a million times more better than Jangbi. He had a far more difficult road in MSL,while carrying the Woongjin Stars in the Proleague. He beat Savior in the Gom,and Savior played really awesome in those matches. He lost only to Bisu,with the same score as Jangbi,and shown incredible play in Pv T and P v Z,while Jangbi didn't really shine in any matchups. Come on,you can't consider beating Yarnc 5 times an impressive feat. Neither is beating Kal,Kal is not that good in the matchup. I know,people will come back at me that,"How dare you say that,he beat Stork I don't know how many times". I don't give a fuck. He lost to Backho and played shit against Jangbi. So to sum it all up,I apologise for writing such a long post about an obvious joke and I know I don't have a good sense of humour. Jangbi is better than Free at PvT. The rest are too close.
free is better than jangbi PvZ
-in 6 months free lost PvZs just to JD ( and one to savior at WCG )
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United States10774 Posts
yeah I was about to add that.
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United States10774 Posts
PvP they are dead even, statistic and gameplay wise.
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9070 Posts
kind of offtopic but OneOther, what are you studying ?
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United States10774 Posts
SAT II U.S. History + IB Extended Essay
suuuucks
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dont worry, the US history SAT is ridiculously easy - I never studied in high school and got a perfect score on it. The IB essay though... thats not fun at all :-(
On Topic - I would say the Free should be ranked higher than JangBi, even though I think their games are pretty much dead even. Why, you ask? Free has been put into high pressure situations (ace matches) and repeatedly prevailed. JangBi has done well in proleague too, but Free has literally carried his team.
When a team is playing against KHAN, they are afraid because KHAN is good. When a team plays against the Stars, they are afraid of Free.
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On November 25 2008 09:21 OneOther wrote:
SAT II U.S. History + IB Extended Essay
suuuucks
ahhhhhhh you're a IB diploma student right?
what's ur essay topic?
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On November 25 2008 00:35 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
you wont make it! :O
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On November 25 2008 10:05 TarsTarkas wrote:
dont worry, the US history SAT is ridiculously easy - I never studied in high school and got a perfect score on it. The IB essay though... thats not fun at all :-(
On Topic - I would say the Free should be ranked higher than JangBi, even though I think their games are pretty much dead even. Why, you ask? Free has been put into high pressure situations (ace matches) and repeatedly prevailed. JangBi has done well in proleague too, but Free has literally carried his team.
When a team is playing against KHAN, they are afraid because KHAN is good. When a team plays against the Stars, they are afraid of Free. k, if you just agreed that Jangbi and free are even, you agree that the other team is as afraid of Khan because of Jangbi as they are afraid of the Stars because of Free, if it wasn't for the fact that facing Jangbi in ace is not a certainty, while facing free is, due to the Stars lacking proper depth. In effect, you made no point but a comment on the effectiveness of each team.
As to high pressure situations- whats more high pressure, ace matches on the finals of the MSL? I think it goes without saying...
Edit: I would agree that Jangbi pvt> Free pvt, Free pvz> Jangbi pvz. I think Jangbi's pvz is a lot closer to Free's, than Free's pvt is to Jangbi's however. I also have no faith whatsoever in Free's pvp. He he was a on a six game loss streak not long ago, since then all hes done is beat tt [yay?] and lose to Bisu. He won a PL match against him, so that IS a positive sign, and means that his pvp may get into good fashion, but its simply undeniable that Free's pvp hit a sharp decline two months ago, and we can not be fully confident in its return.
Jangbi is statistically similar, and even had the same result against Bisu, but I think its a different situation. Jangbi's pvp has been going upwards rapidly [he had something like a 67% record after his first semi final against kal in between his final against Bisu], and he showed very strong standard, long game pvp against Bisu. Jangbi lost to risky manuvers, which are fine by Bisu's behalf, but the result in unfavorably skewed against Jangbi as a result of it. Free lost 1-3 in standard games, where he was outplayed. Same cant be said for Jangbi.
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Jangbi is like 13-1 since april PvZ, is free really that much stronger?
I'm not a fan of jangbi haven't watched his PvZ games so i don't know how well he played, fact that he faced yarnc alot might have something to do with it, but free drops a game here and there also, some vs jaedong but some vs others aswell.. statisticly jangbi's pvz is on fire..
even if he didn't face jaedong, that kind of streak means something
EDIT: Yellow arnc actually played 8-2 his latest 10 zvp if it wasn't for Jangbi.
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+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Medusa YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Byzantium 2 YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Destination YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-10-27 Shinhan Proleague .. Andromeda hyvaa Loss
+ 08-10-07 Shinhan Proleague .. Medusa YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-09-25 ClubDay 2008 MSL Destination YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-08-14 MBC Survivor 15th Byzantium Shark Win
+ 08-08-14 MBC Survivor 15th Athena ZergBOy Win
+ 08-08-01 WCG2008 Korea Othello YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-08-01 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-06-30 Shinhan08 Proleague Blue Storm maGma Win
+ 08-05-26 Shinhan08 Proleague Wuthering Heights Calm Win
+ 08-05-11 Shinhan08 Proleague Colosseum Shark Win
+ 08-04-27 Shinhan08 Proleague Blue Storm GoRush Win
All his wins are against 2nd-rate zergs except Calm and Yarnc. But Yarncs ZvP is just dreadful, so it's no really that impressive, he just overran them with macro.
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On November 25 2008 13:13 Avidkeystamper wrote:
+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Medusa YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Byzantium 2 YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL Destination YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-10-27 Shinhan Proleague .. Andromeda hyvaa Loss
+ 08-10-07 Shinhan Proleague .. Medusa YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-09-25 ClubDay 2008 MSL Destination YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-08-14 MBC Survivor 15th Byzantium Shark Win
+ 08-08-14 MBC Survivor 15th Athena ZergBOy Win
+ 08-08-01 WCG2008 Korea Othello YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-08-01 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda YellOw[ArnC] Win
+ 08-06-30 Shinhan08 Proleague Blue Storm maGma Win
+ 08-05-26 Shinhan08 Proleague Wuthering Heights Calm Win
+ 08-05-11 Shinhan08 Proleague Colosseum Shark Win
+ 08-04-27 Shinhan08 Proleague Blue Storm GoRush Win
All his wins are against 2nd-rate zergs except Calm and Yarnc. But Yarncs ZvP is just dreadful, so it's no really that impressive, he just overran them with macro. Uh...outside of Jaedong and July, Jangbi just about beat the entire Zerg race. Is it his fault the Zerg race is now, and always has been, weak save a few individuals who play extremely well? Jangbi played very strong in all of these games, and as sad as it is- calm, shark, magma, yellow, even Gorush...these are what the Zerg has race to offer outside of Jaedong. Free went up against similar opponents and took defeats. He also lost to, and beat, better players [jaedong]. So Im not trying to make a case against Free, im simply saying that these players are what all Protoss face, and the results are therefore valid.
+ 08-11-09 GOM Classic Season 2 Medusa (Z)Calm Win
+ 08-11-09 GOM Classic Season 2 ( Neo Requiem (Z)Calm Loss
+ 08-11-09 GOM Classic Season 2 Destination (Z)Calm Win
+ 08-11-04 Shinhan Proleague .. Destination (Z)Luxury Win
+ 08-10-19 Shinhan Proleague .. Colosseum II (Z)by.hero Win
+ 08-10-12 GOM Classic Season 2 Destination (Z)Devil Win
+ 08-10-12 GOM Classic Season 2 Chupung-Ryeong (Z)Devil Win
+ 08-10-04 Shinhan Proleague .. Andromeda (Z)oDin Win
+ 08-09-28 Incruit 2008 OSL Medusa (Z)July Win
+ 08-09-17 Incruit 2008 OSL Chupung-Ryeong (Z)July Loss
Bisu's last ten pvz. Excluding July none of these players have good zvp. Calm isnt terrible, Luxury's isn't terrible, but they are by no means comparable to the giants Bisu may face in pvt or pvp. Same thing could be found for virtually any protoss.
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United States10774 Posts
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do?
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On November 25 2008 13:07 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jangbi is like 13-1 since april PvZ, is free really that much stronger?
I'm not a fan of jangbi haven't watched his PvZ games so i don't know how well he played, fact that he faced yarnc alot might have something to do with it, but free drops a game here and there also, some vs jaedong but some vs others aswell.. statisticly jangbi's pvz is on fire..
even if he didn't face jaedong, that kind of streak means something
EDIT: Yellow arnc actually played 8-2 his latest 10 zvp if it wasn't for Jangbi.
Woah, never realized this. Although some games are quite old, Yarnc still shows that ZvP is not a terrible MU for him. He can at least beat up 2nd rate tosses.
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On November 25 2008 13:35 OneOther wrote:
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do?
exactly, its not JangBi's fault he asn't played jaedong. What else can he do than rape any other zerg that comes in his way? Therefor i don't really aprove that Free's pvz is so much better than his, it's actually hard to tell.
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Okay,so I didn't say Jangbi is not good at PL or anything,but despite his MSL and Gom matches,Free played in nearly every game Woongjin had,and played in nearly every ace match. While Jangbi has good records too,he didn't play as much as Free in the PL and I don't remember him playing any ace matches. So Jangbi is a part of a good working team,while Free is carrying a not so good team on his back. Okay,maybe if Jangbi was on woongjin,he would carry them alone too. I don't know. But come on,I don't know why would Jangbi's P v T be better than Free's,and what would indicate this. They are both statistically really good,but I haven't seen Jangbi play vs a goodT in a long time. And perhaps Free's latest opponents were not so good,but he ownd the hell out of them. I think their most significant wins vs T are vs Flash. Btw,Free is playing him tonight,and if he beats him,I cannot see a reason why would Jangbi's P v T be better than Free's.
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Darth Peter I understand what you are saying about Free playing a lot in Proleague, but don't try to argue that Jangbi isn't better at Free in PvT. Due to free's hyper aggressive style, his PvT is inconsistent. On the other hand, Jangbi has a super safe PvT style with tons of variations, and his superb reaver micro alone shows the difference in their PvT. I am not saying Free is bad at it (he is actually pretty damn good), but he doesn't quite measure up to Jangbi in the matchup. And if you want to talk about statistics, there's a large gap there as well - Jangbi sitting at 65%, Free at 55%. Lastly, your argument that Free beating Flash somehow makes his PvT better than Jangbi's is highly flawed. That logic does not work in progaming, and both of them have beaten Flash in the past. What's your point?
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On November 25 2008 13:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 13:35 OneOther wrote:
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do? exactly, its not JangBi's fault he asn't played jaedong. What else can he do than rape any other zerg that comes in his way? Therefor i don't really aprove that Free's pvz is so much better than his, it's actually hard to tell.
I concur.
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i think jangbi should move up next PR if he keeps playing this good, and free, lets wait and see, hopefully he'll play 2 games in a couple of hours.. hopefully vs flash too which will make the PR easier.
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Anyways, I hope we are all in an agreement Jaedong needs to be dropped a couple spots because he played like an ass in the ace matches verses Kal and FireBatHero. If he lost against them playing decently, the penalty wouldn't be as harsh because they are both good players. However, I just watched both games again and boy did he play horribly. There are absolutely other players who deserve to be on top of him.
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I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.
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I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.
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On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.
He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.
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On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.
Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is.
On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.)
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On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass. He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.
No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.
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On November 25 2008 15:06 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so. Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is. On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.)
I see Jangbi's situation like Best, they both use their great macro to overrun their opponents. But that doesn't work any better zergs, for that you need a understanding of the matchups, which hasn't shown itself. Again, I'm not saying he's bad, he just hasn't proven himself. I know it's not his fault, but it's like the same argument how he got a cakewalk MSL and therefore shouldn't be too high.
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On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass. He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game. No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.
That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.
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Its just sad to see a player with such potential drop spots. However i agree that he should.
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On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass. He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game. No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter. That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.
What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game."
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On November 25 2008 15:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:06 OneOther wrote:On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so. Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is. On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.) I see Jangbi's situation like Best, they both use their great macro to overrun their opponents. But that doesn't work any better zergs, for that you need a understanding of the matchups, which hasn't shown itself. Again, I'm not saying he's bad, he just hasn't proven himself. I know it's not his fault, but it's like the same argument how he got a cakewalk MSL and therefore shouldn't be too high.
Okay I see your point. However, Jangbi is nothing like Best. Jangbi is much more technical, much more harass-oriented, and often shows more variations in strategies/builds. He reads the game well and does what he needs to do to secure the win.
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On November 25 2008 15:17 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass. He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game. No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter. That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go. What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game."
Blech, just remove the first sentence.
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On November 25 2008 15:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:17 OneOther wrote:On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass. He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game. No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter. That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go. What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game." Blech, just remove the first sentence.
that leaves us with: "I'm curious to see where this will go."
Sorry, i just had to^^
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Lol, I meant leave just this part:
well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.
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I wonder who will replace fantasy and forgg coz i don't really think they fit.
savior or firebathero perhaps.
I would say Calm, but that guy seriously gets all his wins from early lings rofl.
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Hate to say it, but Calm, unless Fantasy and ForGG aren't dropped.
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I'd say Savior has to be on the outside looking in. I think he's behind FBH, Pusan, Calm, and Fantasy right now.
And while Savior has been a consistent PL performer, he has not played a lot of games like a "PL Ace" should. And he doesn't have starleague games as an excuse either. He's still not a player you can just put every week and expect him to perform.
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On November 25 2008 15:51 baubo wrote:
I'd say Savior has to be on the outside looking in. I think he's behind FBH, Pusan, Calm, and Fantasy right now.
And while Savior has been a consistent PL performer, he has not played a lot of games like a "PL Ace" should. And he doesn't have starleague games as an excuse either. He's still not a player you can just put every week and expect him to perform.
true, i was abit biased. But im just happy he's on the right path. ofcourse other deserves it more.
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On a side note, I am so happy Februarys is gone. The worst fanboy in the history of power ranking thread, and at the same time he manages to come up with the most illogical and ridiculous arguments. Contradicting himself is also his hobby. Not to mention he accuses everyone else of being biased.
Good thing he made a stupid thread under a different account and praised himself on another.
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Nope, he'll be coming back in 2 Weeks as F13.
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Haha well I better enjoy those two weeks then
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On November 25 2008 16:08 OneOther wrote:Haha well I better enjoy those two weeks then
Perfect timing, 1 week before the new power rank to argue about spots, and 1 week afterwards to argue about, well, spots.
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Lol I just looked through his post history:
Two things he ever talks about
1) Jaedong rulez no mater what happens
2) Terran is imba. T>P T>Z
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On November 25 2008 16:23 OneOther wrote:
Lol I just looked through his post history:
Two things he ever talks about
1) Jaedong rulez no mater what happens
2) Terran is imba. T>P T>Z
OMGZ SO TRUE.
I'll have to say, the way you phrased the first point, I can't disagree.
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This is the second time I see 50 posts in 8 hours . I was worried that this month's PR would have only like 150 comments. Oh well
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Jangbi did play Jaedong,in the Gom last season,and was beaten in two straight sets,when he was playing like a n00b. If you don't believe me,watch the games on gomtv.net. On another note tho,Free lost to Jd too then,and beat him recently,so Idk. And statistically,perhaps Free shown inconsistency in PvT,but not the last two months,which I think should count in this power rank,not something that happened a 10.000 years ago. Free only lost to Lomo,a good player,and Flash,the best terran right now,and blown a major lead. Other than that,terrans were Free's bitches the last two months,beating considerable players. On the other hand,Jangbi lost to Shine!!!!, and Iris. He did manage to beat Midas and a shitload of good terrans,but saying right now that Jangbi's P v T is better than Free's is like saying that Jaedong would own Jangbi again. Not proven. I don't say his P v T is worse,but it's equal in the best case.
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On November 25 2008 22:22 Darth Peter wrote:
Jangbi did play Jaedong,in the Gom last season,and was beaten in two straight sets,when he was playing like a n00b. If you don't believe me,watch the games on gomtv.net. On another note tho,Free lost to Jd too then,and beat him recently,so Idk. And statistically,perhaps Free shown inconsistency in PvT,but not the last two months,which I think should count in this power rank,not something that happened a 10.000 years ago. Free only lost to Lomo,a good player,and Flash,the best terran right now,and blown a major lead. Other than that,terrans were Free's bitches the last two months,beating considerable players. On the other hand,Jangbi lost to Shine!!!!, and Iris. He did manage to beat Midas and a shitload of good terrans,but saying right now that Jangbi's P v T is better than Free's is like saying that Jaedong would own Jangbi again. Not proven. I don't say his P v T is worse,but it's equal in the best case.
wasn't last season gomtv like 10.000 years ago?
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On November 25 2008 22:22 Darth Peter wrote:
Jangbi did play Jaedong,in the Gom last season,and was beaten in two straight sets,when he was playing like a n00b. If you don't believe me,watch the games on gomtv.net. On another note tho,Free lost to Jd too then,and beat him recently,so Idk. And statistically,perhaps Free shown inconsistency in PvT,but not the last two months,which I think should count in this power rank,not something that happened a 10.000 years ago. Free only lost to Lomo,a good player,and Flash,the best terran right now,and blown a major lead. Other than that,terrans were Free's bitches the last two months,beating considerable players. On the other hand,Jangbi lost to Shine!!!!, and Iris. He did manage to beat Midas and a shitload of good terrans,but saying right now that Jangbi's P v T is better than Free's is like saying that Jaedong would own Jangbi again. Not proven. I don't say his P v T is worse,but it's equal in the best case. No its not. You dont have to play top players CONSTANTLY to know who is the better player. Look at the quality of their games. Jangbi players a more well rounded, consistent, intelligent style of pvt, and has his entire career. Free...hasn't. Jangbi's game against Shine was off air, and for all we know he was majorly cheesed. As for Iris...are you kidding me? Iris is a beastly terran. Again, you don't really have a case for Free's pvt being better than Jangbi's. Jangbi and Stork are the best pvt players out there, you kinda have to do more than win once in a while for a month to actually be considered a pvt beast like them...
And other than Sea [and even sea to be honest] none of the terrans Free beat are anywhere near top players. Dongrae for god sakes.
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If I look at the quality of games,I see Free making the legendary Nada look like a newb and having one of the most God-likely goon control I've seen in my life. I didn't say losing to Iris is a shame,I said losing to Shine is a shame. Really,I can't say Free's P v T is better,but I can't say Jangbi's is better either. And yeah,they have to face good players constantly to determine. I mean think about it. Stork and Bisu were shit 3 months ago. They lost to Backho and had a shitload of embarassing losses,and now they are at top of the mountain. The world can change really much in one month,so I don't think that we can say Jangbi is better PvT based on past experiences.
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On November 25 2008 22:47 Darth Peter wrote:
If I look at the quality of games,I see Free making the legendary Nada look like a newb and having one of the most God-likely goon control I've seen in my life. I didn't say losing to Iris is a shame,I said losing to Shine is a shame. Really,I can't say Free's P v T is better,but I can't say Jangbi's is better either. And yeah,they have to face good players constantly to determine. I mean think about it. Stork and Bisu were shit 3 months ago. They lost to Backho and had a shitload of embarassing losses,and now they are at top of the mountain. The world can change really much in one month,so I don't think that we can say Jangbi is better PvT based on past experiences.
You do realize that Nada's not even good enough to play on a 4-6 mediocre Wemade Fox team, right? You might want to check out how many times his coach sent him out for PL games.
Btw, by your logic...
Bisu is a shame since he lost to Tazza.
Flash is a shame since he lost to Zero.
Stork is a shame because he lost to Orion.
Jaedong is a shame because he lost to Sangho
Best is a shame because he lost to Nal_keke
Look, cherry-picking losses will result in all progamers be considered failures.
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On November 25 2008 22:47 Darth Peter wrote:
Btw, by your logic...
Bisu is a shame since he lost to Tazza.
Flash is a shame since he lost to Zero.
Stork is a shame because he lost to Orion.
Jaedong is a shame because he lost to Sangho
Best is a shame because he lost to Nal_keke
Look, cherry-picking losses will result in all progamers be considered failures.
Lame losses happen to everybody,yes,and Stork and Bisu are so above everyone else right now,that these losses do not threaten their position. Flash is not a shame,because Zero is looking awesome. Jaedong's and Best's losses were already penalized,they both fallen down several spots. Yeah,these kind of losses happen in Proleague,I agree, but Free and Jangbi are so close to each other that at this level,these losses matter,because Free didn't lose to any scrubs this month.
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Nada is not anywhere what he used to be. Jangbi is much more dangerous in PvT than Free is. Free displayed great micro, and that's what he's known for. Jangbi and Stork are the only two P's that I would fear right now, and I'm a huge Flash fan. Jangbi probably even more so than Stork. The draw game between Flash and Jangbi was just ridiculous...
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On November 26 2008 00:24 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 22:47 Darth Peter wrote:
Btw, by your logic...
Bisu is a shame since he lost to Tazza.
Flash is a shame since he lost to Zero.
Stork is a shame because he lost to Orion.
Jaedong is a shame because he lost to Sangho
Best is a shame because he lost to Nal_keke
Look, cherry-picking losses will result in all progamers be considered failures.
Lame losses happen to everybody,yes,and Stork and Bisu are so above everyone else right now,that these losses do not threaten their position. Flash is not a shame,because Zero is looking awesome.
So how do you know that Shine wasn't somehow on crack and playing out of his mind against Jangbi?
Jaedong's and Best's losses were already penalized,they both fallen down several spots. Yeah,these kind of losses happen in Proleague,I agree, but Free and Jangbi are so close to each other that at this level,these losses matter,because Free didn't lose to any scrubs this month.
Neither did Jangbi. He lost to scrubs last month. This month, all he did was rolled over Kal, Much, Hwasin, Yarnc, and then lost to Bisu(so did Free so this evens out).
Btw, you still haven't responded to my Nada comment. Free 3-0 Nada is not that impressive.
Anyway, tomorrow's game should clear things up a bit. If Jangbi beats Pusan, then he should be #3 next month on the PR. If he loses, then I'm not so certain.
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Yeah,Nada is not that impresive,but Free played impressively against him. I think it depends on the game's quality. If Jangbi plays excellently,and so does Pusan,and Jangbi beats him with great strikes than perhaps he deserves 3,but he'll have to win the other matches he'll play this month.
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well Jangbi also mowed Nada over in the proleague all-star match
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Okay,let's not coubt the All-Star matches and stuff like that. Stork even lost to Frozean on one of them. Jangbi did beat Nada tho countless times before that last season,when Nada was still good,and one of them was really impressive,when he stormed the hell out of Nada.
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I don't know if any of you noticed,but Zero is on a fucking roll. Of course he has to demonstrate more if he ever wants to have a Power Ranking,but you guys could at least consider him for CNBC. He is fucking good lately,beating Kal and Flash and oov,and even go.go is a considerable opponent in z vt,so Idk,maybe it's too early to say anything,but he did look pretty good in his last matches,perhaps GGPlay taught him something.
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United States2186 Posts
While I haven't watched his other matches, Zero's play vs oov was really really smart.
oov does a mech build that revolves around a single timing attack. oov sacrifices a ton of units for scouting information so he can know exactly what point he can attack most effectively.
Knowing all this, Zero does a hidden expansion (at 7 on oov's side of the map) against the smartest player in broodwar history who is known for doing the exact same thing: doing hidden expansions when the opponent doesn't suspect it. oov searched so much for that expansion at 1, but Zero never took it, which led to oov waiting 2-4 minutes longer than necessary to push. At that point Zero's army was at least comparable if not stronger, and on top of it, he does an awesome flank that has hydraling fighting goliaths, scourge hitting unprotected valks, and mutas hitting the tanks. Admittedly oov messed up here but either way that push was too late and oov likely had lost either way.
oov didn't play badly at all, Zero just one upped him. Even though I hate the fact that oov lost, Zero was looking very very impressive.
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I just realized that Jaedong's record isn't very bad in his last 15 or even 10 games.
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On November 26 2008 10:23 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I just realized that Jaedong's record isn't very bad in his last 15 or even 10 games.
his zvz is so good. 20-3 in his last matches... and thats not some kind of streak, thats freaking normal for him. he is bashing zergs like they were D+ trash.
I dont understand how he does it, he's the bonjwa of zvz ffs!
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On November 26 2008 02:15 Darth Peter wrote:
Yeah,Nada is not that impresive,but Free played impressively against him. I think it depends on the game's quality. If Jangbi plays excellently,and so does Pusan,and Jangbi beats him with great strikes than perhaps he deserves 3,but he'll have to win the other matches he'll play this month.
It's really hard to judge a player's play when the levels are so different. And as for Jangbi, I don't believe he's playing again this month. Although depending on the date of the next PR, he could have another PL game and perhaps GOM. Although he does play against pepe which he'll likely just rape.
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On November 26 2008 12:09 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 02:15 Darth Peter wrote:
Yeah,Nada is not that impresive,but Free played impressively against him. I think it depends on the game's quality. If Jangbi plays excellently,and so does Pusan,and Jangbi beats him with great strikes than perhaps he deserves 3,but he'll have to win the other matches he'll play this month. It's really hard to judge a player's play when the levels are so different. And as for Jangbi, I don't believe he's playing again this month. Although depending on the date of the next PR, he could have another PL game and perhaps GOM. Although he does play against pepe which he'll likely just rape. He's not playing again except for tonight against Pusan! Fingers crossed!
You know what really pisses me off? When Jangbi rapes Pepe, and continues to advance in gom, very possibly making the semi finals, you know, you KNOW someone is going to say he had a lucky draw and faced all newbs. It has happened every-single-time Jangbi has gone anywhere in a league.
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On November 26 2008 13:24 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 12:09 baubo wrote:On November 26 2008 02:15 Darth Peter wrote:
Yeah,Nada is not that impresive,but Free played impressively against him. I think it depends on the game's quality. If Jangbi plays excellently,and so does Pusan,and Jangbi beats him with great strikes than perhaps he deserves 3,but he'll have to win the other matches he'll play this month. It's really hard to judge a player's play when the levels are so different. And as for Jangbi, I don't believe he's playing again this month. Although depending on the date of the next PR, he could have another PL game and perhaps GOM. Although he does play against pepe which he'll likely just rape. He's not playing again except for tonight against Pusan! Fingers crossed! You know what really pisses me off? When Jangbi rapes Pepe, and continues to advance in gom, very possibly making the semi finals, you know, you KNOW someone is going to say he had a lucky draw and faced all newbs. It has happened every-single-time Jangbi has gone anywhere in a league.
Yeah, I was talking about after Pusan. If he beats Pusan and not lose to a scrub before the next PR, he should be #3.
And Jangbi will face Stork(provided Stork doesn't choke) in the Ro8. So your scenario won't happen this time.
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United States10774 Posts
Wow, Zero is impressing me lately
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On November 26 2008 16:32 OneOther wrote:
Wow, Zero is impressing me lately
Both his games vs flash and vs iloveoov he played flawless and with attitude.
He is damn good and if he keeps this up he should fit somewhere on the powerrank.
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On November 26 2008 16:59 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Both his games vs flash and vs iloveoov he played flawless and with attitude. He is damn good and if he keeps this up he should fit somewhere on the powerrank.
I would have him over that joker FBH . He beat Jaedong in an ace and now he is + Show Spoiler +
He is not the best option for the rank . FBH builds up some stupid hype like his so called improved "TvP" and then wastes it , can't even scratch Bisu let alone take a game from him ....
BTW Gom Classic has shown some amazing games recently like Iris vs JangBI and Stork vs Nal_keke .I think they should go in the winners favour for next PR .
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On November 26 2008 12:09 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 02:15 Darth Peter wrote:
Yeah,Nada is not that impresive,but Free played impressively against him. I think it depends on the game's quality. If Jangbi plays excellently,and so does Pusan,and Jangbi beats him with great strikes than perhaps he deserves 3,but he'll have to win the other matches he'll play this month. It's really hard to judge a player's play when the levels are so different. And as for Jangbi, I don't believe he's playing again this month. Although depending on the date of the next PR, he could have another PL game and perhaps GOM. Although he does play against pepe which he'll likely just rape.
I think he deserves to remain high . He beat Iris in Gom in some very good PvT match althought Iris was makeing it entertaining . I think only a few tosses could have won that Iris was playing so good i'm sad he lost thought . <3 Berserker the only non boring terran to watch . Him and Mind because Mind plays smart and he is interesting to watch .
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and what 'bout Boxer, UpMagic etc.?
well, maybe 2nd spot is alright for Bisu, but at least he should receive the "big-balls-award" of the year for cancelling the shield battery...
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wow, Zero single handadly slaughthered KTF
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United States11390 Posts
Effort and Zero have been pretty sexy lately~
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medicore zerg are coming up to rule the PL, sounds good
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9070 Posts
I predict a zerg to take a SL next season He is from CJ and its not called savior
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On November 27 2008 02:13 disciple wrote:I predict a zerg to take a SL next season He is from CJ and he IS called savior
corrected
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Yeah,and don't forget about Calm. There are couple of good zergs out there,I don't think the situation is catastrophic for them,just like many people say. Jaedong and Luxury are not as dominant as last season,but they were the only zergs that could win matches last season. I think Out of Effort,Saint,Calm and Zero,and Yarnc,somebody will rise and win a Starleague pretty soon.
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I predict a zerg from Lecaf who is not called Tosky will win a starleague next season.
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On November 27 2008 02:59 GeneralStan wrote:
I predict a zerg from Lecaf who is not called Tosky will win a starleague next season.
Oh,do you mean Ever)Z Killer?
I really hope you are right,I would love to see Jaedong win another Starleague,hope he pulls his shit back together.
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9070 Posts
Saint, Calm, Zero, Yarnc = chumps. Maybe they are quite descent zerg players but I cant see the eye-catching flair of brutality in any of them. Effort is but smth else. HE WILL destroy everyone in 2009 if he develops correctly
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On November 27 2008 03:57 disciple wrote:
Saint, Calm, Zero, Yarnc = chumps. Maybe they are quite descent zerg players but I cant see the eye-catching flair of brutality in any of them. Effort is but smth else. HE WILL destroy everyone in 2009 if he develops correctly
Effort is beastly Z v T,but we didn't really seen him play Z v P and Z vZ,and I am curious. He beat Kal in Incruit Osl,but Kal was ass then,and Kal is also known for inconsistency,so beating him doesn't really say anything about him. In Z v Z he only beat Kwanro and s2(lol). But his Z v T really is promising and I hope his Z v P and Z v Z is also good.
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On November 27 2008 03:57 disciple wrote:
Saint, Calm, Zero, Yarnc = chumps. Maybe they are quite descent zerg players but I cant see the eye-catching flair of brutality in any of them. Effort is but smth else. HE WILL destroy everyone in 2009 if he develops correctly
calling any of the PL top10 chump proves you lack understanding to the pro-scene. they might not be champion but the progamers arent split to 2 categories (champions/chumps)
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9070 Posts
On November 27 2008 05:44 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 03:57 disciple wrote:
Saint, Calm, Zero, Yarnc = chumps. Maybe they are quite descent zerg players but I cant see the eye-catching flair of brutality in any of them. Effort is but smth else. HE WILL destroy everyone in 2009 if he develops correctly calling any of the PL top10 chump proves you lack understanding to the pro-scene. they might not be champion but the progamers arent split to 2 categories (champions/chumps)
yes they are. thou the competition is stronger than ever, the top tear gamers are getting so many that its extremely hard to breakthru. The simple logic says that if for example Saint which you all say has a lot of potential meets one of hmm let me see bisu,stork,jangbi,kal,free,jd,forgg,flash,even best he is out. With that being said I do believe that the Ro8 of every tournament will get a playground of the players mentioned above. Its hard to predict the eventual champion of a given tournament but there are so many strong contenders and I dont see them slumping all together incredibly hard. For me there are champs, ok guys, and chumps. I dont have a reason to classify saint zero and yarnc not as chumps. Calm earned some respect recently but will we see how the new season progresses for him, I wish him all the best. And if you follow the scene carefully you will surely observe the odd trend that the PL performance is extremely different from how the given gamer plays in the individual leagues. Anytime's best season in the PL was a total fiasco in the SL, and we are still waiting the PL giant Sea to actually earn a championship for himself. Midas did fine this season in the OSL but he is nowhere to see in the PL. NaDa too, the old man made it again to the Ro8 in MSL but where is his PL performance? What about Lucifer and Pure? List goes on and on
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I dunno what happened but the games in the PL are gettin` weirder. I mean, I used to be 3 points behind 1st place in LB, but in the last week, I didn`t got any match right (except for those of yesterday: SKT, Woongjin)
oh and I`m worried for lecaf :-s
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United States11390 Posts
On November 27 2008 04:42 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 03:57 disciple wrote:
Saint, Calm, Zero, Yarnc = chumps. Maybe they are quite descent zerg players but I cant see the eye-catching flair of brutality in any of them. Effort is but smth else. HE WILL destroy everyone in 2009 if he develops correctly Effort is beastly Z v T,but we didn't really seen him play Z v P and Z vZ,and I am curious. He beat Kal in Incruit Osl,but Kal was ass then,and Kal is also known for inconsistency,so beating him doesn't really say anything about him. In Z v Z he only beat Kwanro and s2(lol). But his Z v T really is promising and I hope his Z v P and Z v Z is also good.
What?
Beating one of the better PvZ's in the scene doesn't really say anything?
Are you serious?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season?
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On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh
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On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh
I would agree if you took off the significantly.
10-4 vs 10-5?
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On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season?
Definately not
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On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable.
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On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable.
Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 27 2008 11:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable. Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good.
did you watch the game? did you watch jaedong's games vs kal/fbh? and although you would expect flash to win that game, losing to zero is no shame imo. the guy's been hot
flash has been playing better than jaedong, but idk about _significant_. significant is very unclear...how significant is significant
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Zero looked really good against Flash. Flash played well. Did he play as well as he did in ages past? No, no he did not. But Flash played a solid game. Zero won that match, Flash did not lose it, if you understand what I mean.
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On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season?
So you don't ask the question because you don't know the answer you ask the question to see how the masses will respond.
My response: Define significantly, if significantly means much better than the answer is clearly no, Flash has not been much better than Jaedong. But if it means clearly, than I would say yes Flash is clearly doing better in proleague than Jaedong is.
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On November 27 2008 12:18 wswordsmen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? So you don't ask the question because you don't know the answer you ask the question to see how the masses will respond. My response: Define significantly, if significantly means much better . Define much better.
Damn English, its just so damn vague. Anything can mean anything.
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Just say Flash has been doing better than Jaedong so far. Don't toss in opinion words like significantly and much.
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On November 27 2008 11:53 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable. Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good. did you watch the game? did you watch jaedong's games vs kal/fbh? and although you would expect flash to win that game, losing to zero is no shame imo. the guy's been hot flash has been playing better than jaedong, but idk about _significant_. significant is very unclear... how significant is significant
probably pretty sagnificant
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On November 27 2008 13:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:53 OneOther wrote:On November 27 2008 11:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable. Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good. did you watch the game? did you watch jaedong's games vs kal/fbh? and although you would expect flash to win that game, losing to zero is no shame imo. the guy's been hot flash has been playing better than jaedong, but idk about _significant_. significant is very unclear... how significant is significant probably pretty sagnificant
Not sAgnificant enough if you ask me.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better
Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
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On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
Yes, but they went farther in the Starleagues.
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United States10774 Posts
Steve: I explained why Jangbi and Kal should be higher in this post, but I don't think you ever got around to it.
On November 24 2008 09:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
No, I am not putting any emphasis on the name value. I am just observing the games and making logical conclusions.
First of all, no matter how much you want to disagree with this, Jaedong is not playing at the same level. Getting spanked by FBH like that (it wasn't cheese win or anything) is not something a normal Jaedong would do. If you haven't watched this game, I highly recommend you do. His muta micro was subar - in fact pretty awful if you want me to be honest - losing all but one after minimal harassment. Then he loses three lurkers by burrowing them in worst possible location and getting surrounded by marines. Even his defiler management wasn't the same, constantly losing expos when he could have saved them with dark swarm. Don't get me wrong, FBH is awesome at TvZ, but Jaedong's play dropped. It's a fact. Now, let's move on to the ace match vs Kal. If anything, Jaedong needs to be penalized for this pathetic game. There is no way in hell he would have lost this game if he hasn't been under-performing. Kal cuts probes, and does a shuttle/2 reaver + speed zealots attack. Jaedong snipes the shuttle and both reavers, and Kal suicides his zealots. Note that this game is on Andromeda, a Zerg favored map in ZvP. Then what does he do? Jaedong decides to spend all the resources on 24 lurkers and suicides them all into dragoons and high templars. His crappy play in these two crucial games alone justify, in my opinion, a lowered placement for him. You call this "consistent highest level of pro StarCraft?" If he can only show that verses terrible players like Shark, Soo, and Sunny, your argument fails. He needs to be able to show it verses all players, win or lose.
Secondly, I disagree with mostly everything you said about Jangbi and Kal. Jangbi's PvP may not be as good as his PvT and PvZ, (which are both outstanding) but he has vastly improved in this matchup. Jangbi did lose to Backho 1-2 in the EVER OSL, but he has since beaten very good Protoss players like Stork, Free, Much, and Kal. His PvP is NOT terrible. You are not giving this guy enough credit for what he has been doing. Prior to his loss against Bisu, he was pretty much undefeated in MSL and doing excellent in Proleague, while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro. And while I do agree Kal is inconsistent in general, his win verses Jaedong was closer to Jaedong playing horribly than Kal playing better than he usually does. Kal stepped up and beat Stork + Jaedong in _crucial_ ace matches. He deserves a lot of props for that.
Jangbi and Kal are both very good, and let's not label their PvP terrible. They are not. Sure, their PvP may not be as good compared to the other top Protoss players of this golden age of Toss such as BeSt, Stork, and Bisu, but they're still very solid. Both of these guys have been playing great, certainly better than Jaedong.
I haven't watched Flash's games so I won't comment on them.
In conclusion, I think Jangbi and Kal should be placed higher than Jaedong not because they are the best players around (I don't think they are better than they actually are) but because Jaedong has not been playing at the same level. Jangbi and Kal, on the other hand, have won crucial matches and been playing solidly for a while now, while advancing further in Starleagues at the same time.
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United States10774 Posts
I guess the only change is that I watched all of Flash's games now
I could see a case for Jaedong above Kal due to his inconsistent proleague performance (though I still think Kal deserves a higher spot for clutching it at the most important times. it's the opposite of jaedong, who sucked in them), but no way in hell should JD be higher than Jangbi.
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"while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro"
while i agree with most of your arguments, oneother, there is no reason to point out that he lost to roro in order to argue for you cause. There is no slumping going on with jaedongs zvz!
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United States10774 Posts
hm yeah his zvz is as good as ever. I guess his loss verses roro was a fluke ;p however my point is jangbi was doing well in both MSL and Proleague, while Jaedong dropped those games in Pl that he shouldn't
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Come to think of it, nowadays we take jaedongs zvz wins for granted.
There is no other progamer in recent time who dominated a single matchup like jaedong does. What BeSt displayed in pvp was merely a short period of time compared to jaedongs monster of zvz.
I wonder how he can dominate zvz so much, which was considered to be somewhat of a luckbased matchup not too long ago.
That being said, i can't understand how lecaf oz has been losing in proleague recently. Jaedong always wins his games on RA2 vs some zergplayer so they basically start with 1-0 and they have lomo forgg backho and hiya. Pretty wierd actually. However jaedong losing in the ace doesn't help the team that much T_T
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On November 27 2008 15:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Come to think of it, nowadays we take jaedongs zvz wins for granted.
There is no other progamer in recent time who dominated a single matchup like jaedong does. What BeSt displayed in pvp was merely a short period of time compared to jaedongs monster of zvz.
I wonder how he can dominate zvz so much, which was considered to be somewhat of a luckbased matchup not too long ago.
That being said, i can't understand how lecaf oz has been losing in proleague recently. Jaedong always wins his games on RA2 vs some zergplayer so they basically start with 1-0 and they have lomo forgg backho and hiya. Pretty wierd actually. However jaedong losing in the ace doesn't help the team that much T_T
I believe in 3 out of the 4 games they lost, fOrGG was not playing. I'm not sure though.
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On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes .
I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening .
FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too .
I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs ....
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On November 27 2008 14:36 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though Yes, but they went farther in the Starleagues.
July won OSL last season but he was only fourth on the rankings :/ ....Winning the SL is so fucking harder then makeing it far that it ain't even funny .
Back in GOM season 3 Mind won the MSL . He beat Oov , Savior and Bisu all in Bo series , one of the strongest MSL roads in history . Where was he on the PR ~ # 5 was it . I by looking at the rank never even thought that Mind actually won the MSL before i found out . Back then Bisu was still #1 for some reason that i didn't understand . He was in a bad condition althought finished second in MSL and third in OSL raped by Stork 0 - 3 . I think its just that he build up a reputation by winning leagues and playing strong so it is expected of him to be the favourite , Savior too .
But the next OSL and MSL they fell harder from the PR then TheRock in a starleague .
So shit happens , but it is all done for the greater good of the PR .
When Jaedong or Flash start slumping it will get notice don't worry . I can't understand why people say that Jaedong is slumping when all he is done is winning from Ever 07 OSL , then he won MSL after that this season he won WCG korea and GSI season classic . Still is a favourite to win season two give him some room to fail before you bulldoze him back to the minor leagues , he ain't God he can't win them all .
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On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs ....
woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true.
"Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months."
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On November 27 2008 21:04 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs .... woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true. "Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months."
"were" you see it in there :D
That's exactly wthat i'm saying that Jaedong isn't a 1 man team so thats why he doesn't win every game in PL , but if it keeps it up he may become one . Lecaf is starting more and more to depend an Jaedong don't know what happent to ForGG this past month ? The other players are expected to win 1 game so they can send him in the ace game . Last month this is what i'm seeing . If Lecaf get its gear in to shape i think that they will retake their number 1 place with ForGG /Jaedong if it comes to ace they could even use other players if Jaedong isn't doing to well . But if they all start slumping and all that Lecaf does is sending their best player aka JD , he will become a 1 man army in PL like Flash and Free were for their teams , well Flash i think is still of this type even though they have Luxury now .
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On November 27 2008 21:20 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 21:04 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs .... woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true. "Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months." "were" you see it in there :D That's exactly wthat i'm saying that Jaedong isn't a 1 man team so thats why he doesn't win every game in PL , but if it keeps it up he may become one . Lecaf is starting more and more to depend an Jaedong don't know what happent to ForGG this past month ? The other players are expected to win 1 game so they can send him in the ace game . Last month this is what i'm seeing . If Lecaf get its gear in to shape i think that they will retake their number 1 place with ForGG /Jaedong if it comes to ace they could even use other players if Jaedong isn't doing to well . But if they all start slumping and all that Lecaf does is sending their best player aka JD , he will become a 1 man army in PL like Flash and Free were for their teams . You see the "were" word again .
ohm, yes, i wasnt paying enough attention, sry
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ZvZ is a tossup, that`s why jd loses from time to time. If u watch his games he is CLEARLY the best at that MU
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 27 2008 14:44 OneOther wrote:
words
i did in fact read this post and I just don't agree.
Jangbi and Kal had ridiculously easy MSL opponents the entire way through (Except Kal who played Stork, but those two have a history and Stork will probably never beat him in a series). The problem here is that all they've had to play lately is PvP and they really never look "good" in that matchup. There are players who DO look good (Stork, Bisu most of the time, Pusan sometimes, Anytime always) in PvP, but jangbi/kal never do. They win games, they lose games, but they don't display any level of mastery in the matchup.
Kal's other matchups are better, but I wouldnt say his PvT is anything special (his PvZ certainly is). Jangbi's PvT is phenomenal but I just don't think that his other matchups have been good enough lately to trump Jaedong, who is consistantly a favourite in all three.
The wildcard here is free, who I'm debating putting above Jaedong. Yes, he lost to Bisu in horrible fashion, but so did Jangbi, and so would have Kal. The difference is that over the last two months free's PvT has been at Jangbi level and his PvZ has been fucking strong. Out of the three (Jangbi Kal free), free definitely looks like the most complete player, and he has had games that impressed me recently. Jangbi beating up on Yellow[ArnC] and Mr. No-Late-Game Hwasin just doesn't do it for me.
It's a tough spot. You can't weigh PL matches too heavily, but with how easy Jangbi/Kal's MSL runs were, there's just no justification for putting them above Jaedong, who is far, FAR more likely to win a title in the coming season than either of them.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2008 08:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:words
okay, maybe jangbi and kal's performances weren't special enough, but they certainly looked better than jaedong.. seriously, he's done nothing besides beat up newbies (who are far worse than yellow[arnc] and hwasin) and suck huge balls in games against Kal and FBH. i agree jangbi and kal had it easy in PL, but try to compare them relative to jaedong. only thing that jaedong going is your speculation that he has a better shot than them at winning a title, whereas jangbi smashed his way to the MSL finals and has an outstanding record in proleague. kal, similarly, beat stork and made it to the MSL semis. stork is my favorite player, but we gotta give kal credit for what he has done. i say this for the third time, but kal stepped up and won crucial matches against jaedong and stork. and jaedong? exact opposite.
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United States10774 Posts
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Who is writing the PR? Fakesteve or Oneother? Jesus.
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United States10774 Posts
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I think jangbi hasnt proven himself yet in PvZ. Sure 21-13 is a great record but don't forget he beat Yarnc 8 times and lost only once. When 40% of your victory comes from his own bitch, it's hard to judge his vZ match-up. Without Yarnc it would be 13-12, that's kinda different. Now there is no reason to not count his victories vs Yarnc because they were legit but still i would wait to see how jangbi performs vs other big zergs before calling his PvZ "outstanding".
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On November 28 2008 09:53 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
I think jangbi hasnt proven himself yet in PvZ. Sure 21-13 is a great record but don't forget he beat Yarnc 8 times and lost only once. When 40% of your victory comes from his own bitch, it's hard to judge his vZ match-up. Without Yarnc it would be 13-12, that's kinda different. Now there is no reason to not count his victories vs Yarnc because they were legit but still i would wait to see how jangbi performs vs other big zergs before calling his PvZ "outstanding". This sentiment has already been raped repeatedly; Jangbi has defeated the entire Zerg race with ease excluding the VERY best- Jaedong and July. You do not have to beat every single player of a race out there to have enough evidence to show a match up is competent. Jangbi has done what Anytime, Bisu, Free and any other good pvz player has ever done- rape zergs.
End of story, basically.
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the "entire" zerg race ? If we exclude his 0-4 record vs jaedong/savior and the fact that he never played July, here is the list :
chojja, orion, yarnc, max, HyuN, ZergBoy, Gorush, shark, magma.
Impressive ? Not yet, good start though.
Basically my initial sentiment is utterly justified, end of story.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 28 2008 09:32 OneOther wrote:
FS is
whats your thoughts on what i said about free while we're talking in here
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On November 28 2008 08:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:i did in fact read this post and I just don't agree. Jangbi and Kal had ridiculously easy MSL opponents the entire way through (Except Kal who played Stork, but those two have a history and Stork will probably never beat him in a series). The problem here is that all they've had to play lately is PvP and they really never look "good" in that matchup. There are players who DO look good (Stork, Bisu most of the time, Pusan sometimes, Anytime always) in PvP, but jangbi/kal never do. They win games, they lose games, but they don't display any level of mastery in the matchup.
I agree with everything up to this point.
Kal's other matchups are better, but I wouldnt say his PvT is anything special (his PvZ certainly is). Jangbi's PvT is phenomenal but I just don't think that his other matchups have been good enough lately to trump Jaedong, who is consistantly a favourite in all three.
And Jangbi ISN'T a consistent favorite in all 3 MUs? This season he's 1-3 against Bisu and 8-1 against everyone else? He's not favorite against Stork or Bisu, but he's not an underdog against anyone else. I can't see how Jaedong's at another level here unless you want to factor into past season's play.
The wildcard here is free, who I'm debating putting above Jaedong. Yes, he lost to Bisu in horrible fashion, but so did Jangbi, and so would have Kal. The difference is that over the last two months free's PvT has been at Jangbi level and his PvZ has been fucking strong. Out of the three (Jangbi Kal free), free definitely looks like the most complete player, and he has had games that impressed me recently. Jangbi beating up on Yellow[ArnC] and Mr. No-Late-Game Hwasin just doesn't do it for me.
This is pretty biased analysis. You are basically giving Free credit for his accomplishment against terrans and zergs, as he has played them a lot, but skimping the fact that he has played basically no tosses this season(2-0 the almighty TT and 0-1 against Pure in addittion to Bisu) while Jangbi has gone through Pusan, Kal in a series, Pure, and Much. Free's PvP is more questionable than Jangbi's PvZ no matter how you spin it, especially because PvP has been his problem MU, and there's nothing to suggest otherwise right now.
It's a tough spot. You can't weigh PL matches too heavily, but with how easy Jangbi/Kal's MSL runs were, there's just no justification for putting them above Jaedong, who is far, FAR more likely to win a title in the coming season than either of them.
As OneOther pointed out, this is theoretical vs. reality. And if you want to go by this criteria, the PR may as well be in the form of Vegas odds rather than a look at player's accomplishment.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
PR isn't about accomplishments, its about playing well. Free is definitely playing better than Jangbi, and no, Jangbi is nowhere near a consistant favourite in all three matchups.
And praising free isn't biased analysis, I really hate it when people throw that term around. I can't fucking stand free, he's a little effeminate shitbag.
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On November 28 2008 11:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
PR isn't about accomplishments, its about playing well. Free is definitely playing better than Jangbi, and no, Jangbi is nowhere near a consistant favourite in all three matchups.
And praising free isn't biased analysis, I really hate it when people throw that term around. I can't fucking stand free, he's a little effeminate shitbag.
So basically it comes down to watching games and determine "who played well"? Regardless of final outcome?
Then we'll just agree to disagree then.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2008 10:58 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:whats your thoughts on what i said about free while we're talking in here
Comparison to Jangbi:
although I think Jangbi is more balanced all around (better PvT and PvP, but not by much) I would say Free is better at PvZ, since he has proven himself in the matchup - something Jangbi is lacking. I disagree with your claim that Free is doing better than Jangbi though. He doesn't have an edge in anything, including MSL and Proleague. Yeah, both of them lost to the eventual champion Bisu, but I see no basis to say that Free is doing better than Jangbi. If anything, they are at the same level. They should both be above Jaedong.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2008 11:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
PR isn't about accomplishments, its about playing well. Free is definitely playing better than Jangbi, and no, Jangbi is nowhere near a consistant favourite in all three matchups.
And praising free isn't biased analysis, I really hate it when people throw that term around. I can't fucking stand free, he's a little effeminate shitbag.
Idk how you can say this when Jangbi has mercilessly _dominated_ every opponent he has faced, with the exception of Bisu of course.
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United States10774 Posts
but honestly i don't really care who's higher between free and jangbi, i can see a legitimate reason for each of them. as long as they are higher than jaedong ;P
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On November 28 2008 13:16 OneOther wrote:
but honestly i don't really care who's higher between free and jangbi, i can see a legitimate reason for each of them. as long as they are higher than jaedong ;P
Really? I thought you liked Jangbi more.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2008 14:34 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2008 13:16 OneOther wrote:
but honestly i don't really care who's higher between free and jangbi, i can see a legitimate reason for each of them. as long as they are higher than jaedong ;P Really? I thought you liked Jangbi more.
yeah but this is daaaaaaaaaaa pr!
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On November 28 2008 09:53 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
I think jangbi hasnt proven himself yet in PvZ. Sure 21-13 is a great record but don't forget he beat Yarnc 8 times and lost only once. When 40% of your victory comes from his own bitch, it's hard to judge his vZ match-up. Without Yarnc it would be 13-12, that's kinda different. Now there is no reason to not count his victories vs Yarnc because they were legit but still i would wait to see how jangbi performs vs other big zergs before calling his PvZ "outstanding".
we discussed this on page 23.
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On November 29 2008 01:55 Jaeden wrote:
+1 to free > jangbi
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United States10774 Posts
Can't believe BeSt lost to some scrub in MSL Prelims....PvP.
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On November 29 2008 11:27 OneOther wrote:
Can't believe BeSt lost to some scrub in MSL Prelims....PvP.
And that the scrub lost 0-2 to a protoss in his next series.
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On November 29 2008 11:27 OneOther wrote:
Can't believe BeSt lost to some scrub in MSL Prelims....PvP.
I think Best didn't practice for the MSl and was totally drunk or something,he wants to concentrate on the OSL and PL,or at least I hope so,because losing to Inuyasha or what the fuck his name is is really embarassing,especially that he is a KTF toss. Best is really cursed wtih KTF tosses,he lost to Tempest. It's a shame,because they are terrible.
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I think it's because he did the same BO on Medusa, again, and got owned, again.
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On November 29 2008 15:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I think it's because he did the same BO on Medusa, again, and got owned, again.
Bisu had a disadvantageous BO on Medusa against FREE and WON! I can't believe how the best PL player can loose in MSL prelims
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But let's not get carried away. Best not qualifying for the MSL is not a tragedy given the fact that he is a seed in OSL and will create a gruop,from which he'll probably qualify. And Medusa is only one map,and he lost anothr map too. I think Best wanted to participate in only one league,and he chose OSL because he is already seeded in it.
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United States10774 Posts
Talking about not getting carried away...are you really suggesting BeSt dropped out of MSL on purpose because he wanted to play in only OSL? Are you insane? Man, I have a headache all of sudden.
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On November 29 2008 17:01 OneOther wrote:
Talking about not getting carried away...are you really suggesting BeSt dropped out of MSL on purpose because he wanted to play in only OSL? Are you insane? Man, I have a headache all of sudden.
I heard that was a rule back than in SKT. You had to choose one SL you focus on, and PL. Cuz if you were in both SLs than oyu hadnt really time to PL. I dont say it's the case though, just it may be.
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Well,not on purpose,but I think he didn't practice for that too much. He was knocked out of the last MSL too in the prelims,so I think he doesn't really take it seriously. What I wanted to suggest with my really stupid comment is that Best didn't start playing bad,he just didn't take MSL seriously.
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On November 29 2008 17:28 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2008 17:01 OneOther wrote:
Talking about not getting carried away...are you really suggesting BeSt dropped out of MSL on purpose because he wanted to play in only OSL? Are you insane? Man, I have a headache all of sudden.
I heard that was a rule back than in SKT. You had to choose one SL you focus on, and PL. Cuz if you were in both SLs than oyu hadnt really time to PL. I dont say it's the case though, just it may be.
That's what happened to Bisu this season, and T1 probably dropped at least 1 set because of him being unavailable for so many PL matches. Even if it was an unwritten rule, players have obviously broken it.
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I don't think it's out of the question.
For example, the MSL offlines were the week of the GGplay Iris OSL finals and both dropped out 2-0 in the first round. I know that's a different circumstance, but considering Best has finished 2nd and top 4 the last two OSLs, I don't think it's unheard of for him to focus on one starleague and Proleague, considering it's his responsibility to carry the team.
PS I'm not a Best fan, despite my T1 tag.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
If BeSt didn't want to participate in the msl he would not show up on quals. Is there anyone really thinks he lost on purpose, flush a LOT of kespa points down the toilet along with some of his progamer reputation and PvP powerhouse reputation? That's insane talk.
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Okay,I'm just desperately trying to find explanation. He can't lose to a lame KTF toss if he played with everything he got. He just can't.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 29 2008 17:36 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2008 17:28 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 29 2008 17:01 OneOther wrote:
Talking about not getting carried away...are you really suggesting BeSt dropped out of MSL on purpose because he wanted to play in only OSL? Are you insane? Man, I have a headache all of sudden.
I heard that was a rule back than in SKT. You had to choose one SL you focus on, and PL. Cuz if you were in both SLs than oyu hadnt really time to PL. I dont say it's the case though, just it may be. That's what happened to Bisu this season, and T1 probably dropped at least 1 set because of him being unavailable for so many PL matches. Even if it was an unwritten rule, players have obviously broken it. No, this rule was abandoned a long time ago actually Like i beleive it was introduced for the start of the last half of 07? and was revoked start of the 08 season
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On November 29 2008 19:08 Magic84 wrote:
If BeSt didn't want to participate in the msl he would not show up on quals. Is there anyone really thinks he lost on purpose, flush a LOT of kespa points down the toilet along with some of his progamer reputation and PvP powerhouse reputation? That's insane talk.
I'm pretty sure offline qualifiers don't count towards kespa, and I doubt many care about his progamer/pvp reputation re: offline qualifiers except for us.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 29 2008 19:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2008 17:36 baubo wrote:On November 29 2008 17:28 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 29 2008 17:01 OneOther wrote:
Talking about not getting carried away...are you really suggesting BeSt dropped out of MSL on purpose because he wanted to play in only OSL? Are you insane? Man, I have a headache all of sudden.
I heard that was a rule back than in SKT. You had to choose one SL you focus on, and PL. Cuz if you were in both SLs than oyu hadnt really time to PL. I dont say it's the case though, just it may be. That's what happened to Bisu this season, and T1 probably dropped at least 1 set because of him being unavailable for so many PL matches. Even if it was an unwritten rule, players have obviously broken it. No, this rule was abandoned a long time ago actually Like i beleive it was introduced for the start of the last half of 07? and was revoked start of the 08 season
ah okay good to hear. what a sucky rule ;D
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On November 30 2008 04:53 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2008 19:08 Magic84 wrote:
If BeSt didn't want to participate in the msl he would not show up on quals. Is there anyone really thinks he lost on purpose, flush a LOT of kespa points down the toilet along with some of his progamer reputation and PvP powerhouse reputation? That's insane talk. I'm pretty sure offline qualifiers don't count towards kespa, and I doubt many care about his progamer/pvp reputation re: offline qualifiers except for us.
But earning nothing from the next msl season does hurt a lot, that's what i was trying to say. Pretty sure these losses counts too, since they were official matches.
bo3 is a bit random... Firebathero lost 2-0 to terrible Bogus not so long ago, because of the cheeses. Best just choked, like Jaedong when he didn't make it to the autumn osl.
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On November 30 2008 06:24 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 04:53 traced wrote:On November 29 2008 19:08 Magic84 wrote:
If BeSt didn't want to participate in the msl he would not show up on quals. Is there anyone really thinks he lost on purpose, flush a LOT of kespa points down the toilet along with some of his progamer reputation and PvP powerhouse reputation? That's insane talk. I'm pretty sure offline qualifiers don't count towards kespa, and I doubt many care about his progamer/pvp reputation re: offline qualifiers except for us. But earning nothing from the next msl season does hurt a lot, that's what i was trying to say. Pretty sure these losses counts too, since they were official matches. bo3 is a bit random... Firebathero lost 2-0 to terrible Bogus not so long ago, because of the cheeses. Best just choked, like Jaedong when he didn't make it to the autumn osl.
I think Best's opponent knew what BO he would do on Medusa, since he only seems to do the one. Jaedong's opponent Han played spectacularly as well, Jaedong didn't choke, he just got outplayed.
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Stork. <3 Good work. (rhymes?!)
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United States10774 Posts
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Actually i think Best sucks by itself and its not the stupid rule because he cant live up to the standards or expectations.
Last season SKT werent allowed to play in GSL and what Best did? Choke on OSL kneeing in front of  July. Or what Bisu did last season? Being humiliated by almost every zerg he encountered and being outplayed by Luxury in the ACE match vs OGN and wasting the chance of getting to finals.
Best simply sucks, only the myth is about him. "The god of pvp" lost to Stork and was outplayed by Tempest and Ynyeon (or whatever his name is) who are not top players. Next PR Best should be way under Kal, or free, or JD or Flash.
Also, i disagree with FS: PR is not about being spectacular but having good results and being spectacular same time. It is enough to remember the dispute about Best vs LuCifer or LuCifer vs Pure last season when LuCifer had similar streaks with those two, and was pure fun to watch (mass templar drops etc) and he never was in PR.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Lucifer is a fucking terrible player, if you don't understand that you are not qualified to talk about the PR
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Best is terrible my ass. He is not in his top form right now,that's true,but look at his PL stats,he is very solid,he won crucial ace matches,and beaten top players. Yes,he should be below JD,Flash,Kal and Jangbi,but he is still a top player. He didn't qualify for the MSL. So fucking what? He is a seed in OSL,and the majority of players concentrate only on one league. And let's not even talk about Lucifer again,he had good results,but he never was a powerful player. He lost to the first good player he faced and then started choking really hard.
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9070 Posts
how best should be below JD ?
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On November 30 2008 20:45 Phradamon wrote:Actually i think Best sucks by itself and its not the stupid rule because he cant live up to the standards or expectations. Last season SKT werent allowed to play in GSL and what Best did? Choke on OSL kneeing in front of July. Or what Bisu did last season? Being humiliated by almost every zerg he encountered and being outplayed by Luxury in the ACE match vs OGN and wasting the chance of getting to finals. Best simply sucks, only the myth is about him. "The god of pvp" lost to Stork and was outplayed by Tempest and Ynyeon (or whatever his name is) who are not top players. Next PR Best should be way under Kal, or free, or JD or Flash. Also, i disagree with FS: PR is not about being spectacular but having good results and being spectacular same time. It is enough to remember the dispute about Best vs LuCifer or LuCifer vs Pure last season when LuCifer had similar streaks with those two, and was pure fun to watch (mass templar drops etc) and he never was in PR.
GOD, how can someone write so many nonsenses in a single comment? That's an innate talent, isnt it?
EDIT: i just posted a link, previous page, where you can see Best is laughing his ass off, he didnt give a shit about MSL prelim.
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9070 Posts
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Valhalla18444 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [GOM season 2 spoiler] +Jaedong just payed TERRIBLY against Tempest and lost 1-2. With that, there is no justification for Jaedong being above either Jangbi or free. Neither of these two protoss have played anywhere near as bad in recent weeks as Jaedong played against Tempest. Hell, there's a strong case for Kal as well.
Shameful, Jaedong. Shaaaaaaaameful.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
I think it is not just Jaedong, he is still the best Z. It's just all the zergs are having extremely hard time as of late.
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This MSL is going to be interesting. Perhaps one of the young zergs, Calm, Saint, Great, Effort, etc. can step up and fill the void. I mean, protoss is my favorite race and all, but please, NO MORE PvPs!!
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On November 30 2008 21:44 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 20:45 Phradamon wrote:Actually i think Best sucks by itself and its not the stupid rule because he cant live up to the standards or expectations. Last season SKT werent allowed to play in GSL and what Best did? Choke on OSL kneeing in front of July. Or what Bisu did last season? Being humiliated by almost every zerg he encountered and being outplayed by Luxury in the ACE match vs OGN and wasting the chance of getting to finals. Best simply sucks, only the myth is about him. "The god of pvp" lost to Stork and was outplayed by Tempest and Ynyeon (or whatever his name is) who are not top players. Next PR Best should be way under Kal, or free, or JD or Flash. Also, i disagree with FS: PR is not about being spectacular but having good results and being spectacular same time. It is enough to remember the dispute about Best vs LuCifer or LuCifer vs Pure last season when LuCifer had similar streaks with those two, and was pure fun to watch (mass templar drops etc) and he never was in PR. GOD, how can someone write so many nonsenses in a single comment? That's an innate talent, isnt it? EDIT: i just posted a link, previous page, where you can see Best is laughing his ass off, he didnt give a shit about MSL prelim.
He clearly cries at the very end of the video.
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the chanses for Zerg winning a SL this season reduced from minimal to almost zero.
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On November 30 2008 21:44 Geo.Rion wrote:
EDIT: i just posted a link, previous page, where you can see Best is laughing his ass off, he didnt give a shit about MSL prelim.
well you better watch this video again because he was crying his ass off
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On November 30 2008 22:56 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 21:44 Geo.Rion wrote:
EDIT: i just posted a link, previous page, where you can see Best is laughing his ass off, he didnt give a shit about MSL prelim. well you better watch this video again because he was crying his ass off
man, it must be just me, but i still see him laughing
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i saw best in the waiting room after his match and he wasnt crying, didnt look like he had been either. he was laughing in disbelief and talking to his teammates.
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Okay,so there is no forgiveness to Jaedong anymore. I bothered explaining all his losses,but I just can't do it anymore. He clearly sucks now. I hope he comes back sometimes. Losing to Tempest? Holy shit! Free and Jangbi should clearly be above him. Kal too. And I can even see valid arguments about putting Best above him.
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JD beat both Flash and Best recently.
Flash has recovered, but Best still lose to noname players, just like JD.
On the other hand, look at the maps: the zergs have no chance. Someone said before that all zergs have tough times these days, what the map records say, FS?
How do you explain alot of protoss players invaded the PR? How do you explain noname tosses rip apart top zergs? Stork, Bisu, free, JangBi, Kal, Pusan are good but how about Tempest, SangHo, all beat top or good zergs?
Now take a look at EffOrt or ZerO. They are on a good results, but none played with a toss for months. Saint won with HerO and BackHo but lost to slumping Much. RorO is one of the best players on WeMade FOX and lost to tosses. Calm, one of top form zergs still dropped 3 games vs p and won only 2. hyvaa is 1-2 vs p this month. Lux in 0-2, losing to fucking Spear. Jaehoon's only victory in last 5 games is vs zerg.
JD, Lux, Yarnc, Kwanro all lost 60-70% of their matchups played recently with tosses. God dammit, even TT almost beat sAviOr and had 4 times more army than sAviOr when sAviOr distroyed his pylon...
OversKy lonely is on 5-2 vs p last 2 months.
And here comes Best: losses to Hwasin who cant do tvp lol
About Best above JD in PR the figures say it all: JD- 8- 4 (including GSL)and Best is 4-4 november (including MSL Survivor). Both losing to Tempest, who now is on better shape than Best with 5-3.
Am i right or am i right?
On one hand we have alot of tosses doing good and alot of zergs doing bad. And from all the tosses in the world, 2 are doing bad: Best and Much. Capisci?
About LuCifer, you didnt get my message. You said PR is about playing well. LuCifer is a bad player. But at that time he was on a good streak just as Best and Pure. Best was on OSL and with good results on PL. Pure was only on PL. LuCifer was on one classic league, GSL and playing good on PL. He was spectacular and he had good results. And still he wasnt on PR which contradicts with your idea of "playing well".
If you think by playing well means only long macro game its your problem. Starcraft is not just about macro (with Best having only mechanics and not having mind- games with July and Stork explain all of this) its also about being innovative, knowing when and how to cheese, the "smartiness" we all love from BoxeR and Nal_rA.
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On December 01 2008 02:24 Phradamon wrote:JD beat both Flash and Best recently. Flash has recovered, but Best still lose to noname players, just like JD. On the other hand, look at the maps: the zergs have no chance. Someone said before that all zergs have tough times these days, what the map records say, FS? How do you explain alot of protoss players invaded the PR? How do you explain noname tosses rip apart top zergs? Stork, Bisu, free, JangBi, Kal, Pusan are good but how about Tempest, SangHo, all beat top or good zergs? Now take a look at EffOrt or ZerO. They are on a good results, but none played with a toss for months. Saint won with HerO and BackHo but lost to slumping Much. RorO is one of the best players on WeMade FOX and lost to tosses. Calm, one of top form zergs still dropped 3 games vs p and won only 2. hyvaa is 1-2 vs p this month. Lux in 0-2, losing to fucking Spear. Jaehoon's only victory in last 5 games is vs zerg. JD, Lux, Yarnc, Kwanro all lost 60-70% of their matchups played recently with tosses. God dammit, even TT almost beat sAviOr and had 4 times more army than sAviOr when sAviOr distroyed his pylon... OversKy lonely is on 5-2 vs p last 2 months. And here comes Best: losses to Hwasin who cant do tvp lol About Best above JD in PR the figures say it all: JD- 8- 4 (including GSL)and Best is 4-4 november (including MSL Survivor). Both losing to Tempest, who now is on better shape than Best with 5-3. Am i right or am i right? On one hand we have alot of tosses doing good and alot of zergs doing bad. And from all the tosses in the world, 2 are doing bad: Best and Much. Capisci? About LuCifer, you didnt get my message. You said PR is about playing well. LuCifer is a bad player. But at that time he was on a good streak just as Best and Pure. Best was on OSL and with good results on PL. Pure was only on PL. LuCifer was on one classic league, GSL and playing good on PL. He was spectacular and he had good results. And still he wasnt on PR which contradicts with your idea of "playing well". If you think by playing well means only long macro game its your problem. Starcraft is not just about macro (with Best having only mechanics and not having mind- games with July and Stork explain all of this) its also about being innovative, knowing when and how to cheese, the "smartiness" we all love from BoxeR and Nal_rA.
Best still is a good player, His PvT is good, just Hwasin figured out his bo, on a t friendly map ( You have to change sometimes Best! archives into arbiter is cool, but after the first 10 matches becomes predictable). That's his greatest weakness, he's sticking with his builds. That's why he lost to Stork in OSL too. His stellar stat in PL cannot be denied.
And i think you're right about the maps. The only maps where the zergs are beating toss are the old maps. Destination, Medusa (altough i dont find it imbalanced, Meduse is a great map), Chupung all have negative record for zergs against toss. Not talking about MSL maps which are terrible, as always (Byzantium? anyone?). However it's undeniable that the tosses are more in form, and the zergs are lacking dominant players. (Jaedong falling, the "rising stars" didnt rise just yet, Savior didnt come back yet).
Almost the same goes for the Terrans, Fantasy didn't become the new terran emperor, Flash was pushed off from his road to Bonjwa quite long ago and didnt get back on it yet, the older terrans decided to not be in form for couple months (Nada, Iris, Midas, Hwasin). The lower level good terrans are pushed away by the medocre protosses (Really < Sangho etc)
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The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days.
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On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days.
It's because the Forge FE build eliminates the slight imbalance for zergs in ZvP and ZvT has always been slightly favored toward terran.
However, the only way to tell if a player is good because he's good or because it's Maps/Builds is when that person wins against imbalanced maps and MUs. and builds.
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On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days.
yes, the zergs dominated the prelims. Why? why... Because EVERY SINGLE TERRAN THAT COUNTS ALREADY QULIFIED! And the important part of the protoss race too.
Terran:
(T)Canata, (T)Dongrae, Fantasy, (T)firebathero*, (T)Flash,
(T)fOrGG, (T)FrOzean, (T)go.go, (T)Hwasin, (T)Iris,
(T)Leta, (T)Lomo, (T)Memory, (T)NaDa*, (T)RuBy,
(T)Sea, (T)UpMagiC
Protoss:
(P)BackHo, (P)Bisu*, (P)Bul_T, free*, (P)HerO,
(P)JangBi*, (P)Kal*, (P)Much, (P)Stork*, (P)Tempest
Pls tell me who do you miss? Got someone? Go and chek out, they surely quilfied, like Midas, tester, Light, Baby. Ok, Best and Pusan are exceptions, it happens...
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On December 01 2008 00:22 IdrA wrote:
i saw best in the waiting room after his match and he wasnt crying, didnt look like he had been either. he was laughing in disbelief and talking to his teammates.
you were too right?
rape that noob next time
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oh, just saw the map pool
Game 1: Byzantium 2
Game 2: Byzantium 2
Winner: Destination
Losers: Destination
Finals: Athena 2
nice...
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On December 01 2008 05:03 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days. yes, the zergs dominated the prelims. Why? why... Because EVERY SINGLE TERRAN THAT COUNTS ALREADY QULIFIED! And the important part of the protoss race too. Terran: (T)Canata, (T)Dongrae, Fantasy, (T)firebathero*, (T)Flash, (T)fOrGG, (T)FrOzean, (T)go.go, (T)Hwasin, (T)Iris, (T)Leta, (T)Lomo, (T)Memory, (T)NaDa*, (T)RuBy, (T)Sea, (T)UpMagiC Protoss: (P)BackHo, (P)Bisu*, (P)Bul_T, free*, (P)HerO, (P)JangBi*, (P)Kal*, (P)Much, (P)Stork*, (P)Tempest Pls tell me who do you miss? Got someone? Go and chek out, they surely quilfied, like Midas, tester, Light, Baby. Ok, Best and Pusan are exceptions, it happens...
Even counting those automatically qualifying, there are more zergs left than tosses, but that's not really the point.
But aren't you basically concuring with my opinion that players win because they're better, rather than because they play a certain race? You're basically saying that because all the top tosses alrady qualified, the zergs cleaned up the prelim made up of lame tosses. Well, that's my point. In the end, you win because you're good, not because you play a certain race. And so the reason why zergs don't stick around for the final rounds of the starleagues is because they aren't good enough.
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On December 01 2008 05:28 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 05:03 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days. yes, the zergs dominated the prelims. Why? why... Because EVERY SINGLE TERRAN THAT COUNTS ALREADY QULIFIED! And the important part of the protoss race too. Terran: (T)Canata, (T)Dongrae, Fantasy, (T)firebathero*, (T)Flash, (T)fOrGG, (T)FrOzean, (T)go.go, (T)Hwasin, (T)Iris, (T)Leta, (T)Lomo, (T)Memory, (T)NaDa*, (T)RuBy, (T)Sea, (T)UpMagiC Protoss: (P)BackHo, (P)Bisu*, (P)Bul_T, free*, (P)HerO, (P)JangBi*, (P)Kal*, (P)Much, (P)Stork*, (P)Tempest Pls tell me who do you miss? Got someone? Go and chek out, they surely quilfied, like Midas, tester, Light, Baby. Ok, Best and Pusan are exceptions, it happens... Even counting those automatically qualifying, there are more zergs left than tosses, but that's not really the point. But aren't you basically concuring with my opinion that players win because they're better, rather than because they play a certain race? You're basically saying that because all the top tosses alrady qualified, the zergs cleaned up the prelim made up of lame tosses. Well, that's my point. In the end, you win because you're good, not because you play a certain race. And so the reason why zergs don't stick around for the final rounds of the starleagues is because they aren't good enough.
yeap, i wrote the same. Tosses are in form lately, and zergs are not, it seems you skipped that part. The maps are an X factor that bebefits the protosses, who are doing very well anyway
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United States10774 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days.
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United States10774 Posts
Best players have be Protoss these days. Zergs, not so much. As simple as that.
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Open your eyes ! We cant always say that X race loose because of the current set of maps ! Zergs in general just suck at this particular time. Maybe they are hibernating ? Look at GOM TV S2. The maps are Destination, Requiem, Medusa
Medusa and Requiem are balanced map in PvZ ! look at the stats ! And Destination is just 9-14. U can't cry that there is obvious imbalance in this league. But in the Top 16 there will be only 2 zergs. Why ?
Because protoss now and some terrans are better. Thats why...
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@baubo: thanks, finally somebody mentions that!
also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage.
You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players.
You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T".
Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed:
a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results?
or
b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad)
I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z.
Back to topic:
imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm
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On December 01 2008 06:06 Polar_Bear wrote:
@baubo: thanks, finally somebody mentions that!
also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage.
You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players.
You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T".
Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed:
a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results?
or
b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad)
I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z.
Back to topic:
imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm
Wait, what? Is that sarcasm?
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On December 01 2008 05:59 trollbone wrote:
Open your eyes ! We cant always say that X race loose because of the current set of maps ! Zergs in general just suck at this particular time. Maybe they are hibernating ? Look at GOM TV S2. The maps are Destination, Requiem, Medusa
Medusa and Requiem are balanced map in PvZ ! look at the stats ! And Destination is just 9-14. U can't cry that there is obvious imbalance in this league. But in the Top 16 there will be only 2 zergs. Why ?
Because protoss now and some terrans are better. Thats why...
Who do you adress, you should name
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About map imbalance. Last season was far more disadvantegous for Zergs,with Tiamat and all the other stuff,and despite that,JD still managed to qualify in the finals of the MSL. Why? Because he was good back then. He didn't qualify now,because he is starting to suck. And looking at the map pool,he lost on maps like Andromeda,Neo Requiem,stuff like that. The only map he lost on that can be said is imba in P v Z is Harmony. So I have to admit,Zergs don't lose because the map imbalance,they lose because they suck.
And no,Calm should no fucking way be in top 5. Even putting him on the Pr would be generous. He is good,but not really top 10 material.I mean look. There are players like: Stork,Bisu,Free,Kal,Jangbi,Flash,Jaedong,Best,FBH and Pusan. How can you possibly place Calm above any of these guys. In fact,why would you place him above guys like Saint,Zero, Effort,Savior or Yarnc. He didn't really have better results then them this month.
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On December 01 2008 06:06 Polar_Bear wrote:
@baubo: thanks, finally somebody mentions that!
also a big surprise that people start figuring out, that JD is in a slump... we've known this since last MSL's group stage.
You cannot argue that the maps are imbalance by quantitative argumentation, because the selection is not representative and the numbers are far too small (one of these reasons is already enough to make it rubbish). Inferential statistics doesn't not work like this!! btw it's the same problem with "a player is good at TvZ, because his score is 68%" etc. 10-20 vs. JD might be a far better result than 22-8 vs. D-class-players.
You can say e.g. "Katrina tends to favor P in PvZ, because the backdoor natural exp. is fairly easy to hold, so it's safe to do a fe-strategy" or "Jangbi's PvT is pretty strong, because his contain breaks and psi-storm usage are very effective and work out well even vs. the best T".
Right at the moment it's pretty difficult to say which way the causality is directed:
a) Are the current SL maps imba towards Z, so Zs get shitty results?
or
b) Is there a lack of good Z players? (and therefore Z scores are bad)
I think that Plasma is a kind of unfriendly map for Z, but I don't see any vital argument for calling one of the other maps imba towards Z.
Back to topic:
imo top 5 should be Bisu/Stork/flash/free/calm
a) Yes, maps play a role. in MSL ther's always a map which is ridicoulosly imbalanced. (like tiamat was and Byzantium is) I dont know who wrote an article or post about Byzantium, maybe artosis where he explained why is that map imbalanced in pvz (your base it's almost untauchable with drops, protoss can take expos very easiely etc). I could give some arguments about Destination favoring toss, but i'm not a very good player or a bold analyzer, so i dont bother with it, you would criticise that i'm sure.
b) yes there is, but i don't know why do you all exclude the role of the maps. yes, protosses are in form, zergs arent, protoses are doing better than zergs, and the maps help them a bit too. What so unusual about this? Last season when terrans were tearing apart everything the maps helped them too, they were in a better form of course than the other players, but with the help of the small advantages given by the maps they mainteind scary results sometimes. (Wuthering Heights, Othello, Tiamat, Colosseum)
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zergs are dead simple as that, HOLY ...
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I remember a topic on TL [where a guy posted a link to a korean fan site where koreans deployed that western people only praise protosses and zergs are not appreciated.
I can understand when one or two top zergs are slumping and new tosses come up and tear every zerg apart, but statistics dont lie: class A zergs lost to class A, B, C tosses and only beat D class. Simply cannot be all protoss good and all zergs slumping. Its something fishy in Denmark...
Look at MSL: yes zergs qualified but this is coz top and good tosses already were qualified. And look at results: few zergs qualified beating tosses in a real surprise, BeSt[HyO] lost in his best match up (pvp).
I mean, come on:
1- Zerg favorites won:
Luxury vs GuemChi is a difference between Alpha Centauri and Earth, or July vs LuCifer, or GGPlay vs SoO, or GoRush vs han, by.great vs Nbs, Kwanro vs Spear, RorO vs by.mingu, Saint vs Violet.
2- Zerg favorites lost: A surprise is BestGod vs EffOrt
3- Protoss favorite winning: Jaehoon vs Child
4- Protoss favourite lost: Chalrenge vs FireFist, SangHo vs Modesty, Pusan vs by.hero
Where do you see something wrong? In A and B zergs beating C and D tosses? The real surprise here is EffOrt, who plays very good in PL loosing to a low level protoss and in Pusan loosing to by.hero.
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On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days.
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries support the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the map imbalance isn't a big factor when two average players play against each other but it is a huge factor on the highest level of play, where even the smallest thing matter greatly.
I just couldn't help myself...
edit: Just to avoid confusion - I actually agree that the maps aren't deciding factor in PvZ, I just didn't find this argument satisfying...
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Chalrenge aint really a favourite against Firefist, and ByHero is a huge up and comer. I would say Han losing to GoRush was the biggest upset, consider how good Han is and how trashy GoRush has(d?) been playing. On December 01 2008 08:32 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 04:52 baubo wrote:
The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries pokes a hole in the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the zergs are losing at the highest level because the best zergs aren't that good these days. The fact that zergs dominated the MSL preliminaries support the map imbalance theory causing the rise of protosses. People need to realize that the map imbalance isn't a big factor when two average players play against each other but it is a huge factor on the highest level of play, where even the smallest thing matter greatly. I just couldn't help myself... Your dumb. No pro gamer is mediocre, the balance effects them all. Many actually GOOD players were in the prelims as well, actual house hold names.
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9070 Posts
Its actually out:
1.Stork
2.Flash
3.Bisu
check out fomos for the complete list
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On December 01 2008 18:21 disciple wrote:
Its actually out:
1.Stork
2.Flash
3.Bisu
i can't found it, can you post a link?
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Bisu #1 next month for sure now that stork is getting spanked left and right in PL
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I think too that Bisu should be ranked above Stork now. When Bisu won the MSL,even I said that Stork should retain the top spot,because he didn't play as many games. Well,now he did,and he is losing every second match he plays,and in his strongest MU! Bisu had a bad loss against Tazza,but he is much more solid in PL now than Stork,slaying every zerg player he can get his hands on,and winning an Ace match,while Stork only lost won. I don't care that Srotk was more dominant last month,this is this month,where Bisu is just more dominant than Stork.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I dont think there is enough information to call a split between bisu/stork
Stork ravaged keke and lost a VERY close game to pusan (who was 5-0 on colo) and lost again to + Show Spoiler +. Bisu lose to tazza and killed calm/yarnc (one of which is impressive, the other not so). Very difficult to make a call here =/
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The only problem is that Stork lost to Calm too. A player that Bisu eats for breakfest. Otherwise neither of them beat great players in the PL,but Stork lost more than he should have. He also lost to Kal in an Ace match. There is only loss Bisu has suffered that you can't explain-the one vs Tazza,while Stork has more. True,it is not a shame to lose to guys like Kal,Pusan and the most recent,but Stork is considered to be the best PvP player,and that is also his strongest MU. If he loses so much in that matchup,and his P v Z is not top notch,you can't put him on the first place IMO. If he would be the best player,he wouldn't lose so much.
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bisu has looked a lot better in the last week or so but...it's only been a few games. like plexa said, tough call
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9070 Posts
I would call bisus screw up vs Tazza insignificant because he won the Ace afterwords
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he didn't even play bad against tazza imo
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9070 Posts
On December 02 2008 01:21 traced wrote:
he didn't even play bad against tazza imo
I'm not sure about that but at least he is making PvZ look imba once again...or at least on Medusa
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United States10774 Posts
On December 01 2008 21:38 Darth Peter wrote:
I think too that Bisu should be ranked above Stork now. When Bisu won the MSL,even I said that Stork should retain the top spot,because he didn't play as many games. Well,now he did,and he is losing every second match he plays,and in his strongest MU! Bisu had a bad loss against Tazza,but he is much more solid in PL now than Stork,slaying every zerg player he can get his hands on,and winning an Ace match,while Stork only lost won. I don't care that Srotk was more dominant last month,this is this month,where Bisu is just more dominant than Stork.
wait..bisu beats calm once and calm is bisu's bitch now? not true.
but yeah stork definitely needs to step it up (though your transitive property doesn't work, you can't say bisu>calm>stork)
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Bisu beat Calm three times this month and lost once. My claim is just as ridicoulos as when you said Stork eats Luxury for breakfast. I am not saying it based on the fact that Bisu beat Calm,and Stork lost to him. I didn't say a word when Bisu won MSL and Stork lost to Calm. But only look at the stats. Bisu is 3-2,Stork is 2-4. Not a significant difference between the two,but they are so close,that it matters. Also,at this point,we have to remember Bisu won MSL THIS month,not last month. His two losses this month in PL: One was against Free whom he owned two days before,and he was preparing for the Finals( we can say this just as legitimately as it was said that Stork lost to Kal because he was preparing for the OSL). Losing to Calm is not a shame. Not even losing to Kal and Pusan,and I have watched movie,and I thought he is pretty good in PvP. But these losses are too much. If you truly are the best player on the World,these losses are not forgiveable. If you are better than everyone else,you shouldn't lose this much. Bisu loses sometimes,too,but he didn't lose an ace match this month,while Stork lost two of them. It is really tough tho. Moments like these I am happy that I don't write the PR. If you put Stork no1,Bisu fans will cry. If you put Bisu,Stork fans will cry. I promise,I will shut the fuck up,no matter whom you put no1. But I say Bisu is slightly,really just slightly better than Stork right now.
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9070 Posts
More than slightly actually, Bisu will eat the babies of every zerg out there but this doesnt actually matter, stork should keep the top spot till he is eventually out of gom or do a beastly losing streak in PL (and ofc Bisu wins GOM or go further than stork)
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Looking at recent events, I think that Bisu should be #1 now.
Stork won an arguably harder OSL. Bisu won an arguably easier MSL, but won it only dropping like 3 games.
Stork has been doing fine in GOM, and so has Bisu. Stork 2-0ed Nal_keke, Bisu 2-1ed Calm.
Since Stork's OSL win, in Proleague he has gone 2-4 (beaten Sunny and Jaehoon, lost to Kal, Pusan, Calm, and + Show Spoiler +).
Since Bisu's MSL win, in Proleague he has gone 2-1 (beaten Calm and Yarnc, losing to Tazza (wtf)).
Right now, there are really only two main differences. One, Stork has been racking up losses in PL, and Bisu's MSL was more recent. The combination of these two things should make Bisu #1 now IMHO.
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On December 02 2008 06:39 disciple wrote:
More than slightly actually, Bisu will eat the babies of every zerg out there but this doesnt actually matter, stork should keep the top spot till he is eventually out of gom or do a beastly losing streak in PL (and ofc Bisu wins GOM or go further than stork) Sorry, thats not how the pr works.
"xx should be number 1 until they crash and burn miserably"
um...no. Stork has had an easy gom run, nothing in it has really suggested that his form is different to what his PL games have suggested- as in, still good, but sorta lacking in places. Lacking in enough places to get booted off to Bisu.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 02 2008 11:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 06:39 disciple wrote:
More than slightly actually, Bisu will eat the babies of every zerg out there but this doesnt actually matter, stork should keep the top spot till he is eventually out of gom or do a beastly losing streak in PL (and ofc Bisu wins GOM or go further than stork) Sorry, thats not how the pr works. "xx should be number 1 until they crash and burn miserably" um...no. Stork has had an easy gom run, nothing in it has really suggested that his form is different to what his PL games have suggested- as in, still good, but sorta lacking in places. Lacking in enough places to get booted off to Bisu.
so basically, bisu hasn't done anything more impressive than stork besides having a better record in PL. it's not enough to overtake the spot yet, considering they are both doing well in GOM. they are too close at the moment, so let's leave it alone until the new osl/msl seasons start. okay? unless bisu keeps advancing in gom and winning pl matches, while stork drops out. that hasn't happened yet and stork losing a couple more pl games isn't sufficient to justify him losing the number one spot after winning one of the toughest osl titles. there will be plenty of chances for bisu to get it. it's premature to make any changes yet.
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On November 23 2008 11:31 OneOther wrote:
I am under the bias that Stork is better than Bisu regardless of results? GO READ WHAT I SAID MULTIPLE TIMES. I said that although I think Stork's OSL is much better than Bisu's MSL, Bisu _WILL_ take the #1 spot if he keeps it up while Stork continues dropping games in PL and others. Do you not understand that? How is that assuming Stork is the better player regardless of results?
Here, I will lay it out nice and easy for you:
1) Previous achievement has always counted in the next month's, meaning: the player below has to do something greater OR the #1 player has to start under performing.
2) Stork's OSL > Bisu's MSL
3) Bisu will take #1 if he keeps playing the way he is, while Stork keeps getting the L's.
So how many more games does Stork gotta lose?
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United States10774 Posts
i think my post above answers your question
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On December 02 2008 11:22 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 11:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 02 2008 06:39 disciple wrote:
More than slightly actually, Bisu will eat the babies of every zerg out there but this doesnt actually matter, stork should keep the top spot till he is eventually out of gom or do a beastly losing streak in PL (and ofc Bisu wins GOM or go further than stork) Sorry, thats not how the pr works. "xx should be number 1 until they crash and burn miserably" um...no. Stork has had an easy gom run, nothing in it has really suggested that his form is different to what his PL games have suggested- as in, still good, but sorta lacking in places. Lacking in enough places to get booted off to Bisu. so basically, bisu hasn't done anything more impressive than stork besides having a better record in PL. it's not enough to overtake the spot yet, considering they are both doing well in GOM. they are too close at the moment, so let's leave it alone until the new osl/msl seasons start. okay? unless bisu keeps advancing in gom and winning pl matches, while stork drops out. that hasn't happened yet and stork losing a couple more pl games isn't sufficient to justify him losing the number one spot after winning one of the toughest osl titles. there will be plenty of chances for bisu to get it. it's premature to make any changes yet. No, I'm sorry, Stork does not have to have a big blow out to lose his rank. Stork and Bisu's placement were ALWAYS neck and neck, and only you denied this. If Stork drops his play, even if ever so slightly, and Bisu remains at the level he was, or in fact goes higher, that is enough to give the edge to Bisu.
Guess what happened?
I'm not saying Bisu *SHOULD* get the number one spot. I think he should, I think there is enough legitimacy for it. That doesn't mean it has to happen or its a miserable decision, or that it will happen. To just wave your hand away and say "nah" as if there is no legitimate argument, at this very moment, is stupid.
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Ah, I see, it went from "if he loses more proleague games to "lets wait until next season". Sure! You answered my question.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 02 2008 11:37 Kula wrote:
Ah, I see, it went from "if he loses more proleague games to "lets wait until next season". Sure! You answered my question.
no, it went from if he keeps dropping pl/other games to let's wait til he keeps dropping pl/other games (such as gom). and you forgot my other part that bisu has to clearly play better than him. if you were looking for a magical number of losses to bring stork down, then i can't help you, sorry. it's all relative.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 02 2008 11:36 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 11:22 OneOther wrote:On December 02 2008 11:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 02 2008 06:39 disciple wrote:
More than slightly actually, Bisu will eat the babies of every zerg out there but this doesnt actually matter, stork should keep the top spot till he is eventually out of gom or do a beastly losing streak in PL (and ofc Bisu wins GOM or go further than stork) Sorry, thats not how the pr works. "xx should be number 1 until they crash and burn miserably" um...no. Stork has had an easy gom run, nothing in it has really suggested that his form is different to what his PL games have suggested- as in, still good, but sorta lacking in places. Lacking in enough places to get booted off to Bisu. so basically, bisu hasn't done anything more impressive than stork besides having a better record in PL. it's not enough to overtake the spot yet, considering they are both doing well in GOM. they are too close at the moment, so let's leave it alone until the new osl/msl seasons start. okay? unless bisu keeps advancing in gom and winning pl matches, while stork drops out. that hasn't happened yet and stork losing a couple more pl games isn't sufficient to justify him losing the number one spot after winning one of the toughest osl titles. there will be plenty of chances for bisu to get it. it's premature to make any changes yet. No, I'm sorry, Stork does not have to have a big blow out to lose his rank. Stork and Bisu's placement were ALWAYS neck and neck, and only you denied this. If Stork drops his play, even if ever so slightly, and Bisu remains at the level he was, or in fact goes higher, that is enough to give the edge to Bisu. Guess what happened? I'm not saying Bisu *SHOULD* get the number one spot. I think he should, I think there is enough legitimacy for it. That doesn't mean it has to happen or its a miserable decision, or that it will happen. To just wave your hand away and say "nah" as if there is no legitimate argument, at this very moment, is stupid.
first of all, i never denied that stork and bisu were neck and neck. only reason why i initially said stork should be above was that he had a tougher road in osl than bisu's msl. look, i do see a legitimate case for bisu being number one but i just don't think it's enough at the moment. i know i said a couple weeks ago that stork needs to slow down while bisu keeps it up, but is stork dropping couple games in pl really enough? i guess i never set a standard for what qualifies as "slowing down," but it's just not sufficient yet in my opinion. i never blew off your argument - i acknowledge there really is a valid argument for bisu taking the top spot. if stork dropped out of gom, for example, while bisu advanced through, then yeah bisu should definitely be number one. that didn't happen, and i am saying let's wait a little more before we make any further decisions.
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If they are neck and neck, like you said, even a proleague record should justify who gets #1 and #2.
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United States10774 Posts
nope, stork was ahead because osl was tougher than msl. now they are neck and neck because of recent proleague results.
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On December 02 2008 11:49 Kula wrote:
If they are neck and neck, like you said, even a proleague record should justify who gets #1 and #2. Exactly. Flash and Jaedongs placement were decided in one game purely on how Jaedong responded to a mech build.
@Oneother: Thanks for clarifying your opinons, I misinterpreted them, though I still [respectfully] disagree.
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United States10774 Posts
honestly, if i had to rank them right now, i would literally toss a coin and see who wins. stork was ahead in my book (due to harder osl) but now they are too close to differentiate after those proleague games.
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United States10774 Posts
@ Dazed_spy: alright. thanks for being respectful in your posts.
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In my opinion, Bisu should be ahead as an Msl from this month is arguably better than an Osl from last month, since this Power Rank is a monthly power rank. Now with better Proleague, this puts Bisu on top.
But, with rules that change with each new [Monthly]Power Rank, anything can be justified to have Stork on top.
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On December 02 2008 11:51 OneOther wrote:
nope, stork was ahead because osl was tougher than msl. now they are neck and neck because of recent proleague results.
Stork's OSL was tougher than Bisu's MSL, but Stork also had a harder time in his OSL (3-2 to Fantasy), than Bisu had in his MSL. Stork went like, 2-1 vs Bisu, 3-1 vs Best, 3-2 vs Fantasy. Bisu has gone 2-0 vs Hwasin, 3-0 vs FBH, 3-1 vs Free, 3-1 vs Jangbi. Point is that although Stork's OSL was indeed harder than Bisu's MSL, Bisu also tore through his MSL with little problem, while the same cannot be said of Stork's OSL run. Stork's run was harder, so he had a tougher time. Some close games, and close series. Bisu's MSL run was easier, and he just raped his opposition, and was never at a point where he had the chance of elimination.
I think that should put their respective League wins as equal, in terms of measuring their skill from it.
Then Proleague performance, which Bisu has been doing better with, would be the tipping point to Bisu.
Lots of this stuff seems to be going in circles, I guess. I believe Bisu should be #1, but it is very close right now, so it could go either way. Stork needs to get some PL wins though, or Bisu needs to start dropping PL games.
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United States10774 Posts
we already established a while ago that osl and msl carry equal weight (at least until new seasons start). they were like two weeks apart, and i don't think that is a valid justification for msl playing a bigger role than osl. that's why i am saying stork and bisu are so close right now, because bisu is equalizing stork's harder osl with better pl performance.
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I thought Bisu equalized Stork's harder OSL by just raping his way through an easier MSL.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 02 2008 12:37 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 11:51 OneOther wrote:
nope, stork was ahead because osl was tougher than msl. now they are neck and neck because of recent proleague results. Stork's OSL was tougher than Bisu's MSL, but Stork also had a harder time in his OSL (3-2 to Fantasy), than Bisu had in his MSL. Stork went like, 2-1 vs Bisu, 3-1 vs Best, 3-2 vs Fantasy. Bisu has gone 2-0 vs Hwasin, 3-0 vs FBH, 3-1 vs Free, 3-1 vs Jangbi. Point is that although Stork's OSL was indeed harder than Bisu's MSL, Bisu also tore through his MSL with little problem, while the same cannot be said of Stork's OSL run. Stork's run was harder, so he had a tougher time. Some close games, and close series. Bisu's MSL run was easier, and he just raped his opposition, and was never at a point where he had the chance of elimination. I think that should put their respective League wins as equal, in terms of measuring their skill from it. Then Proleague performance, which Bisu has been doing better with, would be the tipping point to Bisu. Lots of this stuff seems to be going in circles, I guess. I believe Bisu should be #1, but it is very close right now, so it could go either way. Stork needs to get some PL wins though, or Bisu needs to start dropping PL games.
i disagree. i realize that stork had a harder time in osl, but i don't see what the scores establishe besides proving that stork's osl was that much more difficult. i don't really care what the final scores were, as long as he wins. beating bisu/best/fantasy (he beat bisu himself lol), regardless of scores, is by far more impressive than beating fbh/free/jangbi. you could say my system is close to the college football's BCS. a team dropping only one game verses unranked teams is ranked lower than a team that losses two/three games with an extremely tough schedule.
now that stork dropped some pl games, i believe they are too close to tell which one should be on top.
On December 02 2008 12:43 Sentenal wrote:
I thought Bisu equalized Stork's harder OSL by just raping his way through an easier MSL.
again, i don't buy this. of course he will drop less games verses easier opponents..lol. what's your point?
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United States10774 Posts
anyways i gotta go for tonight, ill reply to your comments tomorrow or the day after!
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We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?
If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run
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I would just give the spot to Stork since Stork beat Bisu in their OSL series, like how Flash was given the spot for successfully pulling off mech in a way.
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Power Rank is supposed to be a monthly thing, and I think it's pretty safe to say T1's Toss posterboy has crushed Khan's this month.
Bisu is carrying in PL for the first time in his career.
His MSL was a joke with Free and Jangbi as semis and finals -__________-;; but respect for a title.
As stupid as it sounds, Stork's OSL was before Bisu's MSL and Power Rank is a month by month thing, so really, only Stork vs Fantasy should be considered for PR. Strong show from both regardless, but Bisu has done more during november. I think we can agree on that?
Plus, Hwasin, Firebathero, Free, Jangbi... lol? Bisu's MSL bracket looks like old loser's bracket of MSL no? LOL~~~
So what I'm trying to say is.... Best #1 for PR !! GOGO ANYTIMEEEEEE
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On December 02 2008 13:16 SuperJongMan wrote:
Power Rank is supposed to be a monthly thing, and I think it's pretty safe to say T1's Toss posterboy has crushed Khan's this month.
Bisu is carrying in PL for the first time in his career.
His MSL was a joke with Free and Jangbi as semis and finals -__________-;; but respect for a title.
As stupid as it sounds, Stork's OSL was before Bisu's MSL and Power Rank is a month by month thing, so really, only Stork vs Fantasy should be considered for PR. Strong show from both regardless, but Bisu has done more during november. I think we can agree on that?
Plus, Hwasin, Firebathero, Free, Jangbi... lol? Bisu's MSL bracket looks like old loser's bracket of MSL no? LOL~~~
So what I'm trying to say is.... Best #1 for PR !! GOGO ANYTIMEEEEEE
The power rank has never been a solely monthly thing, where did you get this idea from? It's not even released monthly anymore.
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Braavos36374 Posts
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2.
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On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2.
While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans?
Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet lolno
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On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?
If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run
No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ...
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On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players.
I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come ....
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Where should flash be? he's gone 13-2 his last 15 games, woot
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I would put Flash on 4 or 5. I think Free is just more impressive right now,because of the leagues and stuff. Also,Flash seems unable to win vs decent zergs lately. And no, I am not talking about Jaedong. Just watch his stats vs Zergs in the last months. I personally would put him above Jangbi,but Jangbi was ahead of him last month, and Jangbi did nothing to be ranked lower than he was. He lost to Bisu,but Bisu is no1 or no2.
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darth peter i havent read your post now and i just realised flash played a game today, out of fear u'll spoil it i wont read your post yet;) ill watch the vods before visiting this thread again though BYE
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On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come ....
ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later.
About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...)
EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question
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On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question
I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP
other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet)
Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?!
and :+ Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s
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s.th. to think about:
since Bisu has lost to fbh in the MSL group stage he went 21-5, playing 26 games.
The game vs. Tazza was incredibly bad; taking the expansion at the bottom was totally nuts, he didn't play well the rest of the game neither.
The game vs. Yellow[Arnc] was not that great, though Bisu won it.
He probably had a bad day, dropped a game vs. an inferior player.
But there are still 24 games left and Bisu played between "well" and "fucking great" in every single one, he only lost to really good player, always showing at least a decent fight. And Bisu deserves each of his 21 (!!!) wins.
Stork went 19-12 since that day. He played very well in proleague in october, ripped apart Best, which was huge and demolished fantasy in the first two games.
But:
-the last 2 games of his series vs. forgg weren't 100% convincing. excuse: forgg is a great player
-he lost to Kal who has mediocre PvP in a bo5. excuse: it was the day before the OSL finals and those guys have a "history" (imo the last point is rubbish)
-he dropped a game vs. fantasy unnecessarily in the OSL finals. excuse: Stork was nervous and fantasy is a very good player.
-since his OSL win, he hasn't shown a convincing game vs. a decent player. Keke just did s.th. very "unusual" in the 2nd game, Calm's front-door-break looked like a amateur vs. pro match etc.
excuse: still vacant
To put it in a nutshell:
Anybody who cares about getting results, playing well and general recent shape of players will not put Stork above Bisu.
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A pr spot most be granted to Effort, or at least i would give one. It's just PL, but this month we havent anything else, he's still in the GOM, so i see no legitime reason leaving him out, he's winning, and more important he plays damn good
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One problem with Effort,he didn't qualify for the MSL,and qualifying for the OSL is harder,because if it is in the same system as the last season,he will have to beat a player who was in the OSL last season. Now if he gets Light,or Midas,or TheZerg or Rock or Mind he will qualify. But what if he has to beat Flash,Bisu,GGPlay,and players like that.Of course it isn't so bad,considering Best and Pusan didn't qualify,but still. I'm not sure if deserves a ranking yet. There are 8 people who cannot be left out of the top10,and for the rest of the two spots there are players like Pusan,FBH,Calm,Zero. With Effort,there are 5 people for those two spots. It is really hard to decide between them. If we take into account only PL,Pusan definitely should be on the list,because he is so freakin' awesome these days. FBH is also carrying his team on his back,and Zero is fuckin' awesome lately. I would definitely consider him for a spot. This month's power rank will be especially hard to write.
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On December 03 2008 02:03 Darth Peter wrote:
One problem with Effort,he didn't qualify for the MSL,and qualifying for the OSL is harder,because if it is in the same system as the last season,he will have to beat a player who was in the OSL last season. Now if he gets Light,or Midas,or TheZerg or Rock or Mind he will qualify. But what if he has to beat Flash,Bisu,GGPlay,and players like that.Of course it isn't so bad,considering Best and Pusan didn't qualify,but still. I'm not sure if deserves a ranking yet. There are 8 people who cannot be left out of the top10,and for the rest of the two spots there are players like Pusan,FBH,Calm,Zero. With Effort,there are 5 people for those two spots. It is really hard to decide between them. If we take into account only PL,Pusan definitely should be on the list,because he is so freakin' awesome these days. FBH is also carrying his team on his back,and Zero is fuckin' awesome lately. I would definitely consider him for a spot. This month's power rank will be especially hard to write.
What would happen if he meets Bisu, GGplay or Flash? Well, looses to Bisu, shitrapes the other 2 (Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)
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Definitely wouldn't be shitrape. It's rather a tossup. If Flash finds his beastly T v Z again,he will shitrape. If he doesn't,he will win or lose with 2-1. And ZvZ is unpredictable,and GGPlay is not bad at all in it,so that's another tossup. But I have the feeling Effort won't qualify in it either way. I thought he was going to go far in the MSL,but he was eliminated. I don't know what to think of him. He played really well in PL,but was shamefully eliminated in MSL.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 03 2008 02:12 Geo.Rion wrote:(Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)
yep, 62% thats a shitty TvZ right there, and he lost to someone who had a 9/4 record.
Yeah man, Effort will have an easier time against Flash
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On December 03 2008 02:48 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 02:12 Geo.Rion wrote:(Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)
yep, 62% thats a shitty TvZ right there, and he lost to someone who had a 9/4 record. Yeah man, Effort will have an easier time against Flash
Oov has 61% overall right now, with and amazing 68 percent aginst zerg. Yet he lost to Zergboy in a bo3 and another match in PL.
Flash's recent TvZ achievemnts:
loosing to yarnc twice in MSL
loosing to GGplay in OSL
going 0-2 in PL against 2 good players (his match against hyva doesnt counts here, cuz i don't know what happened there, or who won)
he defeated Study (0-4 lifetime stat)
other than that he didn't do anything. Oh, wait, he lost in a showmatch on Plasma against Rumble, nice result.
i might misinterpreted everything and Flash's TvZ is still godly, who knows...
EDIT: ok i spoiled to myself, so Flash won, and ppl say it was an epic match with Flash playin briliantly. Well i should watch it when it is uploaded i guess, but it's a bit hard to imagine how does someone play an epci match against hyvva or whoever
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And I won't spoil his game vs hyvaa,but even if he beats hyvaa,what? Sair beat him already,and nearly every half decent players did. His T v Z isn't what it used to be,everybody has to admit that.
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On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?
If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ...
And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination.
And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?
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We shouldn't compare Bisu's MSL run with Stork's OSL run. Stork was scary good last month. He kept advancing in every league and kept winning in Proleague too. He was worthy of the PR 1 spot last month,because he was just simply the best player on the world. Bisu dominated MSL and won. It is sealed here. If Stork didn't have played a single game this month,I'd say he should still be no1,because he was the king last month,and he didn't play this month,because he was busy last month. But Stork did play this month. If we take his Gom matches in account,which were vs Keke,who is terrible,he is 4-4 this month. He lost to all the good protoss players he played this month,and his PvP is his strongest MU. It just seems,that no matter what,he will never beat Kal for some reason. We cannot say anithing about his P vZ,he beats bad players,he loses to good players,and he cannot really adapt to trcky BO's. His P v T is the best out there,but seriously,what terran Bisu couldn't beat and Stork could beat right now,besides Flash. And you cannot be sure even in that. Bisu played terribly in three of his PvP's this month,but played brilliantly in other PvP's. Stork however,was more consistent. He didn't play terrible,he didn't play brilliantly,he played constantly bad. The fact,that Stork beat Bisu last month says nothing. It was a Bo3,who knows what would happen in a Bo5. And even in those series,it was very close. You cannot really say Stork is better than Bisu based on that. And if we even look at the level of their paths,just look on the PR. Where is Best and Fantasy,and where is Jangbi,Free and FBH on it. I say if Bisu doesn't lose to Reach tomorrow,he should be no1.
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Only problem is, Mantoss is gonna rape Bisu I mean, hes in the army now. It pains me to watch my two favorite players play each other, when I know they both can't win.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
It's the beginning of the month so I'm wondering when the new PR is going to be up.
I recommend it be done before Survivor starts because some people will be dropped if they fail MSL and others that potentially could fail will get a higher PR spot only to be eliminated from the MSL a few days later.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 03 2008 05:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?
If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ... And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination. And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?
hahaha good first paragraph, but transitive property isn't applicable in progaming ;D
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On December 03 2008 05:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?
If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ... And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination. And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?
Bisu, was eliminated by the guy, who-no wait, that was Stork himself.
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a week ago, stork/bisu were interchangeable, and if I would`ve done the PR I would simply put stork above bisu just for the reason that I like stork more. They were to close to each other. However in the last week stork lost 2 matches...
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United States10774 Posts
kal has been doing really well
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On December 03 2008 16:10 OneOther wrote:
kal has been doing really well
Nothing about his recent play exceeds last month's. :/
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United States10774 Posts
On December 03 2008 16:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Nothing about his recent play exceeds last month's. :/
sure it does, he's been much more consistent in proleague and he beat stork/jaedong in ace matches. that's sooo much better than the normal proleague kal
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Kal has been doing alright. Pretty much the only thing recently he hasn't done right, is lose to Jangbi.
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United States10774 Posts
yeah but he more than redeemed himself in proleague
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he`s playin` shitty right now
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United States10774 Posts
true, rofl. he deserves a higher spot than this month though, imo. or at least stay the same.
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yeah, i guess
edit: + Show Spoiler +this must be the worst game ever, although very entertaining
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United States10774 Posts
ok kal played really badly there..
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kal: the most inconsistent player ever
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what about flash? going 3rd? he's awesome again
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i don`t understand this + Show Spoiler +FakeYellow didn`t play well at all, and he still manage to win somehow, especially after the failed rush
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10387 Posts
On December 03 2008 16:58 Jaeden wrote:i don`t understand this + Show Spoiler +FakeYellow didn`t play well at all, and he still manage to win somehow, especially after the failed rush
+ Show Spoiler +It just means that Kal played like shit
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On December 03 2008 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 16:58 Jaeden wrote:i don`t understand this + Show Spoiler +FakeYellow didn`t play well at all, and he still manage to win somehow, especially after the failed rush + Show Spoiler +It just means that Kal played like shit
exactly
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On December 03 2008 18:14 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:On December 03 2008 16:58 Jaeden wrote:i don`t understand this + Show Spoiler +FakeYellow didn`t play well at all, and he still manage to win somehow, especially after the failed rush + Show Spoiler +It just means that Kal played like shit exactly
+ Show Spoiler +So then maybe Yellow > Kal in PR , he hasn't lost a ZvT or a ZvZ since plasma
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9070 Posts
I wont be surprised if I find the next PR under the xmas tree on the xmas morning
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On December 04 2008 02:59 disciple wrote:
I wont be surprised if I find the next PR under the xmas tree on the xmas morning
) u`ll also be happy, coz ur favorite player will shine on top of it
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On December 03 2008 09:28 TheTyranid wrote:
It's the beginning of the month so I'm wondering when the new PR is going to be up.
I recommend it be done before Survivor starts because some people will be dropped if they fail MSL and others that potentially could fail will get a higher PR spot only to be eliminated from the MSL a few days later.
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Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet
I think Flash's TvP is superior to anyone's PvT (especially in a 5 game series)... His proleague game against Free was just another recent example of his beastly dominance of that matchup.
His TvZ on the other hand... *sigh*
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9070 Posts
On December 04 2008 04:45 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet
I think Flash's TvP is superior to anyone's PvT (especially in a 5 game series)... His proleague game against Free was just another recent example of his beastly dominance of that matchup.
His TvZ on the other hand... *sigh*
WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
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On December 04 2008 04:49 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 04:45 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet
I think Flash's TvP is superior to anyone's PvT (especially in a 5 game series)... His proleague game against Free was just another recent example of his beastly dominance of that matchup.
His TvZ on the other hand... *sigh* WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
that`s why I hate flash's fanboys xD
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WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
I love people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun. Oh, I'm winning this game, and I think I should get my carriers out of the garage, dust them off, and give them a go. Use your head. The same thing happened back in the OSL when Bisu switched to carriers remember that? This game is not golf, it's a 1v1 competition with each player influencing the other in subtle and not so subtle ways throughout the course of a game and even before the game even starts.
Obviously Free felt like he was NOT winning with his arbiter tactics. Why is that? Cause Flash has some of the best recovery abilities among all progamers and it's known. He consistently loses expansions in some of his best matches, but somehow he doesn't seem to fall behind economically, and rebuilds those expansions while still pumping units. This kind of defensive ability puts pressure on other opponents. If you don't understand this dynamic, then you don't understand sport.
It's like people who wonder why do tennis players make lots more unforced errors against Rafael Nadal than they normally do. They just beat themselves. No, Rafael Nadal is great, because his defensive qualities are known, it's one of his weapons (a passive one you could argue) but still a great weapon, and therefore he puts pressure on opponents to go for more than they normally would, therefore resulting in many more "unforced" errors.
Mass recalls take their toll on Protoss as well, it's a lot of units that eventually get mopped up and lots of money invested in each of those, they aren't free. If Free felt he wasn't getting the impact he expected, he might have felt pressure to switch, like Bisu did in the OSL. And seriously can you argue Flash is not the best TvP player in the world, and would you really bet your life savings that Stork or Best could take him in a Bo5?
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and you would you really bet your life savings that flash could take stork/best in a bo5 ?
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9070 Posts
my arguments are clearly not motivated by fanboysm because really I dont give a damn about those two players. The fact is free was taking out the top right expos of flash like they were nothing. Usually every protoss with strong economy tries to switch tech to carriers in the late game, but this is not an autowin option and there are many thing to be considered before doing such a thing. Again, free had great unit mix/ great map presence, good mobility and even my mum would say that he is in a dominant position, there was no reason for him to switch tech, especially knowing that flash has a lot of factories, upgrade heavy army and like 3 bases up and running, and the transition for him to goliaths would be piece of cake.
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I use that as an example to pull away fan affiliation and make it a cold hard decision based on fact. Let's put it this way, if someone told me I had to predict the winner of a Bo5 between Stork v Flash or Best v Flash, and I would get killed if I didn't predict it right, I would pick Flash. I'm not saying Flash is the best player in the world right now, but I'm saying that I would not pick a protoss over him in a Bo5.
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Flash is unquestionably the best PvTer out there,and doesn't really have competition,because other terrans suck nowadays,and even the better Terrans are weak against Protoss(FBH,Hwasin,Sea,ForGG). If Flash is in his top form,he can beat Best and Stork too. Also,Best's P v T is not so good ATM. One thing I'd love to see again is Bisu vs Flash,and I swear to God,that Bisu will finally win(I wouldn't bet in a box of beer tho ). And that match has a good chance,because Bisu meets(lol) Hoejja and Flash meets (ROFL) TheRock. So I think we will find some things out of that match if it happens,like is PvT really Bisu's achilles heel and is Flash still godlike vs Protoss.
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Ok, so like I said before, if Free had "no reason" to do that, then why did he? Watching the game on observer view with the outcome known is a lot different than when you're playing the game in the heat of the moment. If it was not Flash who pulled out this win I would chalk it up to "Free is a everloving retard." But this has happened before with Flash in a big-time game against a big-time opponent. When someone bends but doesn't break it's intimidating. I thought Flash was toast myself, but I was so impressed he could macro and recover as well as he did. There are very few if any other Terrans who would've even lasted long enough to force Free into that hasty decision in the first place.
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Sometimes Flash just rolls over guys like his game against Pure which was a joke, and many games against Rock and Bisu come to mind. Other times he has to play defense and win, that's the definition of being able to own a matchup.
Yes, I'm also excited to see Flash vs. Bisu in the GOM and hoping for a competitive match, but it just seems like Flash has Bisu's number. I'd actually be most interested in seeing a Flash v Best bo5 or bo3 or a Flash v Jangbi bo5 or bo3 to be honest. I feel like those two have the best shot, Jangbi more than Stork.
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9070 Posts
flash vs bisu on blue storm is a completely different deal, certain map specifics are favoring terran when the map is split, the lack of mobility becomes a minor factor and its easier for the terran to defend recall attacks. Remember that flash had like 3 rows of turrets in his main just below the 12 o'clock expo? The case with the drawn game vs jangbi was similar, when blue storm is split 50/50 the toss is short of options. And btw Bisu brought Flash to his very limits in this set, when the Ultimate Weapon was really raping shit. Both havent met in their top forms, yes Flash cheesed out Bisu in the OSL but Bisu beat the shit out of Flash in the MSL group as far as I can remember.
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I would like to see Flash vs Best too,but I would like to see a Bisu Best even more. I am really curious,if Bisu's PvP is really that good to beat Best,I beleive it is. And I also want to see Bisu finally beating Flash,so people saying Bisu's P v T is untested would finally shut the fuck up. But I fear that neither Flash Best,neither Bisu Best won't happen,because Effort is too much for Best in PvZ Imo.
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On December 04 2008 05:04 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun.
U are tryin` to say that progamers don`t make shitty decisions? it`s not necessary for fun, it`s just a thing that no one can understand. From time to time they just make really dumb decisions, it`s as simple as that.
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Lets make things clear here. I`m not saying flash sucks (he WAS playin` badly , but he seems to recover from his slump ). Also I`m not trying to argue about the fact that stork > flash, or best > flash. Maybe he could beat them, we don`t know, but the match between him and free...well, free didn`t play his best game, not even close to that.
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Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone.
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tbh i think bisu would have a small advantage against flash right now.. like 51-49%
bisu is probably playing better, flash probably has a better understanding of the matchup. under normal circumstances i'd give flash the edge, but i think the current metagame+maps give protoss a significant advantage, it seems like most of the time terran has an incredibly small timing window before protoss' economy and tech kick in, and then they just get rolled. i've only seen them hit this a few times - every other terran win i've seen is either because one player outclasses the other or because protoss screws up somehow.
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Flash was not in a slump, he just suffered from the I-have-to-go-14-CC-every-single-game-curse.
Forgg doesn't have bad TvP, have you seen any games from him? in case of 'yes', which?
Though I want Bisu to win, the odds in flash-bisu are still around 65-35.
Best's might be a bit better.
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T v P used to be ForGG's best MU. I've seen many of his T v P's,and lately,he has been eliminated from all the tournaments in T v P. Last season,he lost to Shuttle in the Gom and wasn't even dominating in the match he had won. He lost to Much in the OSL,Stork in the MSL and WCG and to Soo in Gom. Look,I love ForGG,but based on these stats,and the games themselves I can say his T v P is not the best right now. It's like with Jaedong,his Z v P is supposed to be beastly,but I cannot bet on him winning all game sin the MU recently,and the same was with his Z v T. First he had a 15 games winstreak vs Terrans,and then he started to lose to them.
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If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best
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9070 Posts
wow, there's a long and image heavy article in fomos about bisu and stork, I cant wait for someone to translate it
@ OneOther: you should check out the video posted in the article and give me a hug
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United States2186 Posts
The people who can potentially beat Flash are Bisu, Free, and Jangbi, with Bisu having the highest chance (over 50). Stork is likely getting hit by the curse as we speak, and even without it has had a very severe history versus Flash. Best has no ability to plan out a series and adapt on the fly. Jangbi is also kinda bad in this respect but his PvT otherwise is just so ridiculously good that it might give him a shot anyway. Bisu is definitely the best player to go against Flash, because Flash won't be able to outthink Bisu very easily, if at all. Bisu's PvT is weak to mechanics and straight up players like Mind, not to strategists like Flash, as his Bacchus games showed (where he looked much better than vs Mind). Free is a pretty strong series player and would certainly have a fair shot.
Flash was slumping like hell. He went from 'I will outsmart you and outthink you without scouting you' to 'I'm just going to rely on my mechanics because I'm exhausted and can't spend the time to plan out every match at the same old level,' which of course equalled disaster. After his loss against Jaedong he at least seemed to show a revival, as his defense versus Light was top notch, had a non-macro well thought out strategy vs Jaehoon, and his play versus Fantasy, despite what FakeSteve said, was really nice, at least on Andromeda. Zero is a great player now and there's no shame to losing to him.
The only other good TvPer is mind, who is obviously inconsistent. But he's the other hope that Gom won't be Protoss infested madness.
The game vs Free on Andro was pretty weird though, so I went and took a closer look. First of all, Free did not have that in the bag with Arbiters and ground play. Free did gain an impressive lead with nice stasis on the first attack and that lucky/random early isle expansion seeing the hidden expo. However, it was pretty obvious that Free was unable to stop Flash from taking the 1 bases after that failed recall into 3 which gave Flash enough time to get the CC's at 1 up and thus turret/mine up if Free didn't go carriers; once that would be the case, it'd be 8 base toss vs 7 base Flash, who had just gotten +3 attack. A recipe for disaster. The recalls were costing Free a lot, and while he had the money, he didn't necessarily have the time, as he needed to defeat Flash before 1 got up and Flash was able to defend it and get the gas for more vessels and tanks.
Free was clearly planning for the late late game, and carriers are quite strong on Andro in that they guarantee you both islands (Arbs *kinda* do but not nearly to the same degree. 6 was up for grabs still). 7 stargates with 1 pylon was obviously a mistake, as a more slow and safe transition would have been better. But Free's decision was clearly balanced by his failed attempts to stop Flash from taking 1. You can throw away 40 supply armies and use all your mana for recall over stasis for maybe a few Terran units just to stop CCs for some time, but not forever. Right as Free teched to carriers, there was a break in his recalling ability anyway and Flash would've had 1 up and defended. So actually the carriers was a good, well-foreseen plan. Just the implementation was bad.
Basically you have to realize that with the mass amount of recalls that Free was doing, he wasn't going to have much, if any mana for stasis. And stasis was the one reason why he was winning battles earlier. So either a) he has to gamble on a frontal attack and avoid being emped to get enough stasises off, which would lose him the game if failed. or b) continually prevent Flash from taking 1 with recalls, which lost their steam after awhile and especially after that blocked recall into 3 and losing the arbiters. What would have been a better plan for Free would have been to pressure Flash's main as well as 1 at the same time, but he clearly wasn't thinking in that direction. And without applying pressure on the main and forcing Flash to cover large distances with his army, Free was likely going to lose with an arbiter/ground army, making carriers and the islands the best strategy.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On December 04 2008 05:18 Darth Peter wrote:
Also,Best's P v T is not so good ATM. Because he just lost his first PvT after winning the 9 games before that on a Terran favoured map?
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I think Yarnc deserves at least a "Close but no Cigar". He totally failed against Jangbi but he's been tearing things up in proleague.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone.
I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through.
Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best.
However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends.
He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet.
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when is the new PR coming anyway?
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On December 04 2008 05:04 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
I love people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun. Oh, I'm winning this game, and I think I should get my carriers out of the garage, dust them off, and give them a go. Use your head. The same thing happened back in the OSL when Bisu switched to carriers remember that? This game is not golf, it's a 1v1 competition with each player influencing the other in subtle and not so subtle ways throughout the course of a game and even before the game even starts.
Obviously Free felt like he was NOT winning with his arbiter tactics. Why is that? Cause Flash has some of the best recovery abilities among all progamers and it's known. He consistently loses expansions in some of his best matches, but somehow he doesn't seem to fall behind economically, and rebuilds those expansions while still pumping units. This kind of defensive ability puts pressure on other opponents. If you don't understand this dynamic, then you don't understand sport.
It's like people who wonder why do tennis players make lots more unforced errors against Rafael Nadal than they normally do. They just beat themselves. No, Rafael Nadal is great, because his defensive qualities are known, it's one of his weapons (a passive one you could argue) but still a great weapon, and therefore he puts pressure on opponents to go for more than they normally would, therefore resulting in many more "unforced" errors.
Mass recalls take their toll on Protoss as well, it's a lot of units that eventually get mopped up and lots of money invested in each of those, they aren't free. If Free felt he wasn't getting the impact he expected, he might have felt pressure to switch, like Bisu did in the OSL. And seriously can you argue Flash is not the best TvP player in the world, and would you really bet your life savings that Stork or Best could take him in a Bo5?
Progamers sometimes throw away their games. Nada vs Gorush, Jaedong vs Kal, Bisu vs Stork and there are one million more. There was no way for FLash to recover from that normally. He was down 4 base for nearly 10 minutes, only skills don't mean a shit at that point, you can't beat a top class progamer when your eco is half of his. Free amde his worst decision what he could have made, switching to Carriers, so an opporunity was given to Flash to break him, and Carriers at that point wouldn't be that effective anyways, 3-3 goliaths own the shit out of them. There are 3 possible scenarios in my mind: 1) Free wanted to humiliate Flash 2) Free was overconfident and thought his advantage is great enough to afford some crazy switch like that (8 stargates what the hell) 3) Free was afraid he can't break Flash with ground, and wanted to switch tech befor Flash can secure his side of the map. Flash did everything right from that point attacked when he was supposed to, macroed like he should have, sniped the pylon, microed well. Props to him, but Fre ALLOWED HIM to do this, Free MADE THE WORST DECISION HE COULD. Again props to Flash that he could exploit it, but don't act like he beated Free with half eco, that's bullshit. Maybe other Terrans wouldnt beat him even this way, so you can be proud on Flash if you want, but you must accept that it was more Free's mistake than Flash's skills
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On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best
OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss"
Try to think befor you post
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On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet.
OH, FAkesteve you're here? Will you write the new PR?
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On December 04 2008 17:36 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 05:04 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
I love people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun. Oh, I'm winning this game, and I think I should get my carriers out of the garage, dust them off, and give them a go. Use your head. The same thing happened back in the OSL when Bisu switched to carriers remember that? This game is not golf, it's a 1v1 competition with each player influencing the other in subtle and not so subtle ways throughout the course of a game and even before the game even starts.
Obviously Free felt like he was NOT winning with his arbiter tactics. Why is that? Cause Flash has some of the best recovery abilities among all progamers and it's known. He consistently loses expansions in some of his best matches, but somehow he doesn't seem to fall behind economically, and rebuilds those expansions while still pumping units. This kind of defensive ability puts pressure on other opponents. If you don't understand this dynamic, then you don't understand sport.
It's like people who wonder why do tennis players make lots more unforced errors against Rafael Nadal than they normally do. They just beat themselves. No, Rafael Nadal is great, because his defensive qualities are known, it's one of his weapons (a passive one you could argue) but still a great weapon, and therefore he puts pressure on opponents to go for more than they normally would, therefore resulting in many more "unforced" errors.
Mass recalls take their toll on Protoss as well, it's a lot of units that eventually get mopped up and lots of money invested in each of those, they aren't free. If Free felt he wasn't getting the impact he expected, he might have felt pressure to switch, like Bisu did in the OSL. And seriously can you argue Flash is not the best TvP player in the world, and would you really bet your life savings that Stork or Best could take him in a Bo5? Progamers sometimes throw away their games. Nada vs Gorush, Jaedong vs Kal, Bisu vs Stork and there are one million more. There was no way for FLash to recover from that normally. He was down 4 base for nearly 10 minutes, only skills don't mean a shit at that point, you can't beat a top class progamer when your eco is half of his. Free amde his worst decision what he could have made, switching to Carriers, so an opporunity was given to Flash to break him, and Carriers at that point wouldn't be that effective anyways, 3-3 goliaths own the shit out of them. There are 3 possible scenarios in my mind: 1) Free wanted to humiliate Flash 2) Free was overconfident and thought his advantage is great enough to afford some crazy switch like that (8 stargates what the hell) 3) Free was afraid he can't break Flash with ground, and wanted to switch tech befor Flash can secure his side of the map. Flash did everything right from that point attacked when he was supposed to, macroed like he should have, sniped the pylon, microed well. Props to him, but Fre ALLOWED HIM to do this, Free MADE THE WORST DECISION HE COULD. Again props to Flash that he could exploit it, but don't act like he beated Free with half eco, that's bullshit. Maybe other Terrans wouldnt beat him even this way, so you can be proud on Flash if you want, but you must accept that it was more Free's mistake than Flash's skills
yap free would have won if he kept on doing what he was doing, reacll, stab expo etc.. would dry out flash since flash bases was running low on minerals. Free could have added 20 gateways and simultaniously kept on attacking and he would probably have wion although one of his recall got badly owned by mines.
Flash on the other hand had a bad opening, thats why free took such advantage in the lategame. The port opening gave him very few probekills vs free's early expansion.
Flash didnt really make any mistake after his bad opening though and he deserves higher PR than free imo, since flash is really doing well again, losing only like 1 game out of 10
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On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet.
Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards !
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 04 2008 17:59 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. OH, FAkesteve you're here? Will you write the new PR?
Yep, about a week into the month as usual
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On December 04 2008 23:40 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards !
I have to disagree, he didn`t play well at all, but somehow kal played even worse. He had some nice ideas, but the execution was ...
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On December 04 2008 23:40 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards !
Kal played like shit, i feel Yarnc best ZvP performence recently was against Bisu, yes, i know he had lost
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Can't wait for the new PR, Bisu NUMBER 1!
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On December 05 2008 00:25 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 23:40 raga4ka wrote:On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards ! I have to disagree, he didn`t play well at all, but somehow kal played even worse. He had some nice ideas, but the execution was ...
Maybe you can't see how well he played , because you think of him as a bad vs protoss player but that game he played brilliant for his standarts and very good over all . Preventing Kal from getting a third base , preventing to much damage dealt by speedy zeals + corsair , puting pressure with hidras , he placed lurker contains all the time. His harrass was very good droping lurkers under expos and drops at main . He bassicaly raped Kal after his own failed 3 hatch lings . Kal couldn't keep up with his multitasking harras and the pressure he dealt to him all the time ... after his almost no effective speed ling rush he made all the right decision if you ask me . Even if Kal didn't make the best decisions that doesn't take away from the brilliant moves that Yarnc was able to dish out .
I think if he can keep up this kinda performance in the PL he should be on the PR ...
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On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet.
Come to think of it inyeon[3.33] and han are pretty terrible them selfs but they played decent . I didn't watch Effort vs BestGod how they played , but even a terrible player can dish out good games now and then .
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On December 04 2008 06:37 Darth Peter wrote:
T v P used to be ForGG's best MU. I've seen many of his T v P's,and lately,he has been eliminated from all the tournaments in T v P. Last season,he lost to Shuttle in the Gom and wasn't even dominating in the match he had won. He lost to Much in the OSL,Stork in the MSL and WCG and to Soo in Gom. Look,I love ForGG,but based on these stats,and the games themselves I can say his T v P is not the best right now. It's like with Jaedong,his Z v P is supposed to be beastly,but I cannot bet on him winning all game sin the MU recently,and the same was with his Z v T. First he had a 15 games winstreak vs Terrans,and then he started to lose to them.
Well the problem is forgg's best matchup is tvz and your all logic fails.
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On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post
Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...
But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time
I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true
But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough
Peace...
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+ Show Spoiler +Progamers sometimes throw away their games. Nada vs Gorush, Jaedong vs Kal, Bisu vs Stork and there are one million more. There was no way for FLash to recover from that normally. He was down 4 base for nearly 10 minutes, only skills don't mean a shit at that point, you can't beat a top class progamer when your eco is half of his. Free amde his worst decision what he could have made, switching to Carriers, so an opporunity was given to Flash to break him, and Carriers at that point wouldn't be that effective anyways, 3-3 goliaths own the shit out of them. There are 3 possible scenarios in my mind: 1) Free wanted to humiliate Flash 2) Free was overconfident and thought his advantage is great enough to afford some crazy switch like that (8 stargates what the hell) 3) Free was afraid he can't break Flash with ground, and wanted to switch tech befor Flash can secure his side of the map. Flash did everything right from that point attacked when he was supposed to, macroed like he should have, sniped the pylon, microed well. Props to him, but Fre ALLOWED HIM to do this, Free MADE THE WORST DECISION HE COULD. Again props to Flash that he could exploit it, but don't act like he beated Free with half eco, that's bullshit. Maybe other Terrans wouldnt beat him even this way, so you can be proud on Flash if you want, but you must accept that it was more Free's mistake than Flash's skills
1) I never said that Flash can beat people with half econ, starting 10 minutes after, and one hand tied to his ankle
2) If no other Terrans could've beaten Free this way as you mentioned, then why would I not give props to Flash.
3) If Free was afraid he couldn't break Flash with ground, forcing him to switch to Carriers which then got owned well then Flash certainly played a hand in the outcome.
Again, now back to my original point. Sometimes when people come back in games they pull out a crazy amazing move, a 80 yard hail mary pass. Quite obvious. Everyone claps. Sometimes when people come back in games, the other guys does something so amazingly stupid, like kicks a goal in his own net cause he's a retard, and everyone groans. These examples are the most clear, but also the minority
Now most times when someone comes back it's a combination of little things, cleaning up your own play, playing great defense, waiting for a mistake and a window of opportunity. True champs are tough to beat down, and even tougher to close out. Being able to defend well, maintain presence like that in the face of those recalls and then strike the knockblow when it counts, well that's great understanding of the matchup, great understanding starcraft, on top of great mechanics and a minor mistake by Free. If you play that game over again from that exact point of the second recall in a Bo5, I'm sure Free wins it. Yes, I hope that makes you happy. I don't attribute god-like abilities to Flash to win with a single marine microing a force of 50 dragoons. No, I'm saying Flash has a beastly dominance of this matchup, whether it's rolling people, dealing with recalls, taking out carriers, etc. This is an example of him playing great defense and recovering from recalls, which look a lot worse than they are by the way (again, they are not freebies for the Protoss), keeping his head together and continuing to macro up, and take his position on the map. Free knew this, which is why he went carriers, and when he eventually got owned don't act like he was up 5-0 and then kicked 6 goals into his own net.
If no other Terrans could've beat Free this way, as you mentioned, why would I not give props to Flash? Your logic is horrendous at worst, and superfluous as best. In an age of parity and build order importance, you're gonna get into a bad situation from time to time. You're gonna get behind in games. Not every game you win is gonna be a straightforward streamroll like against Pure, and every single game against Rock, lol. Being able to win games like this is important and shows a variety of other skills in the matchup other than "I can roll you at the 11 minute mark."
Free allowed Flash to do this? You act like this game was in the bag for Free, like he 8 gated proxy and Flash went 14 CC, and somehow he gave it away. It was a high quality game, certainly not the level of OSL against Bisu or Stork, but still a solid battle with back and forth swings throughout. Free did not think he had the amazing advantage you speak of.
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On December 05 2008 04:56 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Progamers sometimes throw away their games. Nada vs Gorush, Jaedong vs Kal, Bisu vs Stork and there are one million more. There was no way for FLash to recover from that normally. He was down 4 base for nearly 10 minutes, only skills don't mean a shit at that point, you can't beat a top class progamer when your eco is half of his. Free amde his worst decision what he could have made, switching to Carriers, so an opporunity was given to Flash to break him, and Carriers at that point wouldn't be that effective anyways, 3-3 goliaths own the shit out of them. There are 3 possible scenarios in my mind: 1) Free wanted to humiliate Flash 2) Free was overconfident and thought his advantage is great enough to afford some crazy switch like that (8 stargates what the hell) 3) Free was afraid he can't break Flash with ground, and wanted to switch tech befor Flash can secure his side of the map. Flash did everything right from that point attacked when he was supposed to, macroed like he should have, sniped the pylon, microed well. Props to him, but Fre ALLOWED HIM to do this, Free MADE THE WORST DECISION HE COULD. Again props to Flash that he could exploit it, but don't act like he beated Free with half eco, that's bullshit. Maybe other Terrans wouldnt beat him even this way, so you can be proud on Flash if you want, but you must accept that it was more Free's mistake than Flash's skills 1) I never said that Flash can beat people with half econ, starting 10 minutes after, and one hand tied to his ankle 2) If no other Terrans could've beaten Free this way as you mentioned, then why would I not give props to Flash. 3) If Free was afraid he couldn't break Flash with ground, forcing him to switch to Carriers which then got owned well then Flash certainly played a hand in the outcome. Again, now back to my original point. Sometimes when people come back in games they pull out a crazy amazing move, a 80 yard hail mary pass. Quite obvious. Everyone claps. Sometimes when people come back in games, the other guys does something so amazingly stupid, like kicks a goal in his own net cause he's a retard, and everyone groans. These examples are the most clear, but also the minority Now most times when someone comes back it's a combination of little things, cleaning up your own play, playing great defense, waiting for a mistake and a window of opportunity. True champs are tough to beat down, and even tougher to close out. Being able to defend well, maintain presence like that in the face of those recalls and then strike the knockblow when it counts, well that's great understanding of the matchup, great understanding starcraft, on top of great mechanics and a minor mistake by Free. If you play that game over again from that exact point of the second recall in a Bo5, I'm sure Free wins it. Yes, I hope that makes you happy. I don't attribute god-like abilities to Flash to win with a single marine microing a force of 50 dragoons. No, I'm saying Flash has a beastly dominance of this matchup, whether it's rolling people, dealing with recalls, taking out carriers, etc. This is an example of him playing great defense and recovering from recalls, which look a lot worse than they are by the way (again, they are not freebies for the Protoss), keeping his head together and continuing to macro up, and take his position on the map. Free knew this, which is why he went carriers, and when he eventually got owned don't act like he was up 5-0 and then kicked 6 goals into his own net. If no other Terrans could've beat Free this way, as you mentioned, why would I not give props to Flash? Your logic is horrendous at worst, and superfluous as best. In an age of parity and build order importance, you're gonna get into a bad situation from time to time. You're gonna get behind in games. Not every game you win is gonna be a straightforward streamroll like against Pure, and every single game against Rock, lol. Being able to win games like this is important and shows a variety of other skills in the matchup other than "I can roll you at the 11 minute mark." Free allowed Flash to do this? You act like this game was in the bag for Free, like he 8 gated proxy and Flash went 14 CC, and somehow he gave it away. It was a high quality game, certainly not the level of OSL against Bisu or Stork, but still a solid battle with back and forth swings throughout. Free did not think he had the amazing advantage you speak of.
I actually am more impressed by Mind's play on Colosseum II Free was struggling to keep map control with Mind's godly vulture harass and Mind played it very well not overextending himself and leavering room for Free to come back ...
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Do you guys think ForGG should be like 10th?
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Russian Federation386 Posts
On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace...
Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ?
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On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so... But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace...
Oov isn't his practice partner! he helps him in figuring out BOs, in planning a bo5, structurin g his practice time, focusing on his weaknesses stuff like that. Of course, for the finals against Stork he PRACTICED against Bisu, Best and Intotherainbow and maybe others but Oov was his trainer, he told him who to practice which aspect of his game needs working etc
Adn fantasy doesn't play 400 games, nobody does, if he's practicing like hell he might play 60 or so..
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On December 05 2008 03:08 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 00:25 Jaeden wrote:On December 04 2008 23:40 raga4ka wrote:On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards ! I have to disagree, he didn`t play well at all, but somehow kal played even worse. He had some nice ideas, but the execution was ... Maybe you can't see how well he played , because you think of him as a bad vs protoss player but that game he played brilliant for his standarts and very good over all . Preventing Kal from getting a third base , preventing to much damage dealt by speedy zeals + corsair , puting pressure with hidras , he placed lurker contains all the time. His harrass was very good droping lurkers under expos and drops at main . He bassicaly raped Kal after his own failed 3 hatch lings . Kal couldn't keep up with his multitasking harras and the pressure he dealt to him all the time ... after his almost no effective speed ling rush he made all the right decision if you ask me . Even if Kal didn't make the best decisions that doesn't take away from the brilliant moves that Yarnc was able to dish out . I think if he can keep up this kinda performance in the PL he should be on the PR ...
Kal didn't play well. Yarnc isn't terrible against protoss, his stat is, he plays quite acceptable overall, just that he has many monents when he can be crushed, cuz when he's passive he's too passive when he's agressive he's too agressive, he isnt quick enough in changing tech, and good protosses abuse those timing windows making Yarnc look like a noob. Kal had his chanses, he really could have beaten yarnc multiple times, just he always lacked sg, and that's his bad.
Yarnc's mistakes: very very stupid runby, loosing like 20+ lings, to sneak by 5 of them, and kill a grand total of 2 probes with them. Slow transition to lurkers and not enough lurkers sometimes, dropping lurkers in a way that both of them could be hit by a storm, and there might have been more i dont remember
Kal's mistakes: several times he was passive when he could have attacked, not good enough army mangament overall (lost unforced a few zealots, the rest of them werent in place, so he lost a lot of goons to some lings, OMG! etc), poor HT use, very easy snipes for yarnc, some very bad storms, including storming his own units, AWFUL observer use and there were couple more.
Yarnc played ok, but Free, Jangbi, Bisu, and KAL should have beaten him easily if they show up to thier games
But of course he has to be on the PR, just dont overrate him he's inconsistent
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almost time for another one?
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I love ForGG,but I don't think he should be in PR. He didn't impress this month. I think FBH,Pusan,Effort or Calm,they all deserve it more than ForGG.
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On December 05 2008 04:56 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Progamers sometimes throw away their games. Nada vs Gorush, Jaedong vs Kal, Bisu vs Stork and there are one million more. There was no way for FLash to recover from that normally. He was down 4 base for nearly 10 minutes, only skills don't mean a shit at that point, you can't beat a top class progamer when your eco is half of his. Free amde his worst decision what he could have made, switching to Carriers, so an opporunity was given to Flash to break him, and Carriers at that point wouldn't be that effective anyways, 3-3 goliaths own the shit out of them. There are 3 possible scenarios in my mind: 1) Free wanted to humiliate Flash 2) Free was overconfident and thought his advantage is great enough to afford some crazy switch like that (8 stargates what the hell) 3) Free was afraid he can't break Flash with ground, and wanted to switch tech befor Flash can secure his side of the map. Flash did everything right from that point attacked when he was supposed to, macroed like he should have, sniped the pylon, microed well. Props to him, but Fre ALLOWED HIM to do this, Free MADE THE WORST DECISION HE COULD. Again props to Flash that he could exploit it, but don't act like he beated Free with half eco, that's bullshit. Maybe other Terrans wouldnt beat him even this way, so you can be proud on Flash if you want, but you must accept that it was more Free's mistake than Flash's skills 1) I never said that Flash can beat people with half econ, starting 10 minutes after, and one hand tied to his ankle 2) If no other Terrans could've beaten Free this way as you mentioned, then why would I not give props to Flash. 3) If Free was afraid he couldn't break Flash with ground, forcing him to switch to Carriers which then got owned well then Flash certainly played a hand in the outcome. Again, now back to my original point. Sometimes when people come back in games they pull out a crazy amazing move, a 80 yard hail mary pass. Quite obvious. Everyone claps. Sometimes when people come back in games, the other guys does something so amazingly stupid, like kicks a goal in his own net cause he's a retard, and everyone groans. These examples are the most clear, but also the minority Now most times when someone comes back it's a combination of little things, cleaning up your own play, playing great defense, waiting for a mistake and a window of opportunity. True champs are tough to beat down, and even tougher to close out. Being able to defend well, maintain presence like that in the face of those recalls and then strike the knockblow when it counts, well that's great understanding of the matchup, great understanding starcraft, on top of great mechanics and a minor mistake by Free. If you play that game over again from that exact point of the second recall in a Bo5, I'm sure Free wins it. Yes, I hope that makes you happy. I don't attribute god-like abilities to Flash to win with a single marine microing a force of 50 dragoons. No, I'm saying Flash has a beastly dominance of this matchup, whether it's rolling people, dealing with recalls, taking out carriers, etc. This is an example of him playing great defense and recovering from recalls, which look a lot worse than they are by the way (again, they are not freebies for the Protoss), keeping his head together and continuing to macro up, and take his position on the map. Free knew this, which is why he went carriers, and when he eventually got owned don't act like he was up 5-0 and then kicked 6 goals into his own net. If no other Terrans could've beat Free this way, as you mentioned, why would I not give props to Flash? Your logic is horrendous at worst, and superfluous as best. In an age of parity and build order importance, you're gonna get into a bad situation from time to time. You're gonna get behind in games. Not every game you win is gonna be a straightforward streamroll like against Pure, and every single game against Rock, lol. Being able to win games like this is important and shows a variety of other skills in the matchup other than "I can roll you at the 11 minute mark." Free allowed Flash to do this? You act like this game was in the bag for Free, like he 8 gated proxy and Flash went 14 CC, and somehow he gave it away. It was a high quality game, certainly not the level of OSL against Bisu or Stork, but still a solid battle with back and forth swings throughout. Free did not think he had the amazing advantage you speak of.
1) nc
2) props to Flash, really, i wrote it twice, so i just sit and try to figure out what the hell this means + Show Spoiler +If no other Terrans could've beat Free this way, as you mentioned, why would I not give props to Flash? Your logic is horrendous at worst, and superfluous as best.
3) Free wasnt forced to switch, he switched, that's why he lost
And yeap, Free allowed him to do this, i dont care how awesome do you think Flash is, if free would have added a ouple more gateways and stargate for arbiters it would be his game. Your "arguments" aren't arguments, you just throw out shit what comes to your mind, and try to offend me with ridicoulos comparisons like 14 CC aginst 8 gate and others. Just let me take some of your sentences:
+ Show Spoiler +No, I'm saying Flash has a beastly dominance of this matchup, whether it's rolling people, dealing with recalls, taking out carriers, etc. This is an example of him playing great defense and recovering from recalls, which look a lot worse than they are by the way (again, they are not freebies for the Protoss), keeping his head together and continuing to macro up, and take his position on the map. Free knew this, which is why he went carriers, and when he eventually got owned don't act like he was up 5-0 and then kicked 6 goals into his own net.
So you basicly said that Flash has beastly dominance, he knows how to deal with carriers, Free knew this and gone Carriers. Ok, you might concluded that Free went for Carriers, from "Flash can continue to macro up, and take his position on the map, Free knew this". First of all that's bullshit. You can't throw out "arguments" like this, cuz they are too general, and doesn't fit the game. Ok, Flash macroed well, he tried to take his positions on the map, BUT HE F*CKING FAILED! you made me rewatch the VOD, so i can tell you exactly where Flash failed. I could point out those battles lost by Flash when Free used his arbiters and superior army well (17:10-17:30 there he has to leave his 3 clock expo, Fre by the tiem takes 8 expo) but that's not so important, Free had an open area and plenty of troops to break that line. BUT, Flash tried to secure the top right main+doublenat. You say he's so awesome in doing that. 20:00 looses his scvs and a CC to a small goon force and a HT, totally unforced, he could have saved the CC and the scvs too. 22:10 - 23:10 He looses ALL 3 OF HIS CCs, every scv and some units too. The only thing Free needed at that point is to pump units with his one million minerals/gas from one thousand gateways and some arbiters. BUT he didnt have those gateways, he had 8 stargates instead (powered by a single pylon). He had vey few units, because of that. He might have hold even this way, but decided to sacrifice 2 of his arbiters to recall a force at 3 o clock. They got owned by mines, but they would have died 3 sec later anyways cuz there were many troops. So the very risky multiple stargate transition was backed up by an unforced troop-arbiter loss. Awesome work. I wont dissect your comment further, just answer to one of your comparisons. No it's not like being up 5-0 and scoring 6 autogolas. It's like having a 3-0 lead (4 base lead, one is allowed in TvP, so that makes 3) and sbustitute your defenders and goalkeepr to more attackers (groundarmy+arbiters for carriers), or sg like that. but you should quit with this kind of comparisons, they arent funny and you're bad at using them
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On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ?
If not, they should do it cause they are pro
That means they have to play like god for their fans
I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!!
Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day
He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking
There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team
Go flash, go !!!
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On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!!
pls shoot yourself!!!
If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games.
The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy)
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On December 05 2008 03:08 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 00:25 Jaeden wrote:On December 04 2008 23:40 raga4ka wrote:On December 04 2008 15:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 04 2008 06:10 Shikyo wrote:
Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone. I love Effort, but he has some major issues to work through. Usually when a big-name player loses to a no-name player in the offlines its an awful upset, and a lot of the time we don't even know anything about the winning player. Upon closer observation, many times those winning players will turn out to be strong contendors in their own right, playing the right game at the right time. Like han vs Jaedong, or this inyeon[3.33] kid vs Best. However, Effort lost to BestGod. This is unforgivable, and shows a major halt in consistancy in Effort's play. BestGod is an awful player, and the games were embarassing on both ends. He's up and coming, but he's still up and coming. He's not quite there yet. Then how about mentioning Yellow in the PR he hasn't lost a ZvT since Midas with plasma in OSL quallification and he rapes zergs so badly now like Jaedong does . He even raped Kal after his failed ling rush in the ACE game ... I think that his ZvP isn't hopeless yet !!!! Yellow made some very good decisions and Kal coudn't keep up with his harrass , he played pretty good for his ZvP standards ! I have to disagree, he didn`t play well at all, but somehow kal played even worse. He had some nice ideas, but the execution was ... Maybe you can't see how well he played , because you think of him as a bad vs protoss player but that game he played brilliant for his standarts and very good over all . Preventing Kal from getting a third base , preventing to much damage dealt by speedy zeals + corsair , puting pressure with hidras , he placed lurker contains all the time. His harrass was very good droping lurkers under expos and drops at main . He bassicaly raped Kal after his own failed 3 hatch lings . Kal couldn't keep up with his multitasking harras and the pressure he dealt to him all the time ... after his almost no effective speed ling rush he made all the right decision if you ask me . Even if Kal didn't make the best decisions that doesn't take away from the brilliant moves that Yarnc was able to dish out . I think if he can keep up this kinda performance in the PL he should be on the PR ...
well, fakeyellow made some good decisions that game, but that`s all. I agree he tried a lot of stuff there, and a lot of multitasking, it`s just that his control was... The bad micro should`ve betrayed him, especially with the failed ling rush...but kal played like shit, so that`s why i don`t give him credit for his win
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On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
pls shoot yourself!!!
If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games.
The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy)
I had the exact same things in mind reading february's comments some weeks ago. I was sooo glad he is Jaedong's fanboy .
What I want to say - every top pro (Flash, Bisu, JD,...) has some totally idiotic fanboys. Just learn to ignore them, it makes your life much easier...
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On December 05 2008 22:51 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
pls shoot yourself!!!
If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games.
The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy)
I had the exact same things in mind reading february's comments some weeks ago. I was sooo glad he is Jaedong's fanboy . What I want to say - every top pro (Flash, Bisu, JD,...) has some totally idiotic fanboys. Just learn to ignore them, it makes your life much easier...
Or dumb ass like you
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On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy)
It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here
You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that?
You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously
And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age
And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity
I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan
So give me a break, dumbass
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On December 05 2008 23:05 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy) It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that? You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan So give me a break, dumbass
If you do a joke,pls at least ty to make it funny. If this was a joke,than your sense of humour must suck even more than mine does. Next time you make a joke,pls at least try to make it funny.
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On December 05 2008 23:05 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy) It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that? You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan So give me a break, dumbass
so you register, arrive at this topic, throw out shit like "I dont know why ppl tell Fantasy is Oov's apprentice" + Show Spoiler +If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best
Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...
But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time
I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true
But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough
Peace...
If not, they should do it cause they are pro
That means they have to play like god for their fans
I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!!
Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day
He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking
There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team
Go flash, go !!!
That's more than pathetic, you don't have a single normal comment on TL and you defend your nonsenseces with "that was a joke" argument when you're out o everything, and call me dumb, retarded and everything. C'mon people, pls read the 4 comments from this guy posted here and say that it sounds like a joke, or it sounds anything tolerable. There might be serious problems with me after all.
PLEASE MODERATORS BAN THIS GUY!
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On December 05 2008 23:26 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 23:05 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy) It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that? You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan So give me a break, dumbass If you do a joke,pls at least ty to make it funny. If this was a joke,than your sense of humour must suck even more than mine does. Next time you make a joke,pls at least try to make it funny.
Next time, try to be not so stupid
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On December 06 2008 00:44 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 23:05 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy) It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that? You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan So give me a break, dumbass so you register, arrive at this topic, throw out shit like "I dont know why ppl tell Fantasy is Oov's apprentice" + Show Spoiler +If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best and " fantasy is playin 400 games a day" + Show Spoiler +
Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...
But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time
I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true
But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough
Peace...
(just to point out the 2 most obvious stupidity), and when you get answer for both of them in a quite manner way, considering the level of posts, explained why are you terribly wrong at both points you write an additional comment + Show Spoiler +
If not, they should do it cause they are pro
That means they have to play like god for their fans
I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!!
Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day
He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking
There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team
Go flash, go !!!
Than you get your ass flamed out cuz it's too much for every ppl who's patient enough to still read your "comments", and as answer you pull out a pathetic "you shouldnt take that seriously, it was a joke" That's more than pathetic, you don't have a single normal comment on TL and you defend your nonsenseces with "that was a joke" argument when you're out o everything, and call me dumb, retarded and everything. C'mon people, pls read the 4 comments from this guy posted here and say that it sounds like a joke, or it sounds anything tolerable. There might be serious problems with me after all. PLEASE MODERATORS BAN THIS GUY!
Why you want me to be banned? What I said to you made you cry? Poor baby, I didn't want to hurt you. Sorry about what you had to endure, now you're a big boy. Don't cry everytime someone tell you what you trully are.
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I don't want to tell you what you are,because I would use too harsh words. There is a thing called good manners. Now you just come here and start talking shit about everybody,making bad jokes and calling everybody stupid or retard. Even Februarys had manner,although he was an idiot like you. So okay,I am finished with you,please do not respond to my comment because you will most likely anger me and I will show you how I can curse in English,and I don't want to be banned from my favourite forum because of a dumb shit like you. Srry everybody for such a pointless argument with this guy,but he's really annoying. So okay,I shut up. Please start writing readable comments and start making good jokes. The PR really deserves more than this.
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On December 06 2008 03:11 bebercast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2008 00:44 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 23:05 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 05 2008 17:56 bebercast wrote:On December 05 2008 15:01 eX-Corgh wrote:On December 05 2008 04:21 bebercast wrote:On December 04 2008 17:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 04 2008 07:49 bebercast wrote:
If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best OMG, i can't belive what i just read . Fantasy is CLEARLY Oov's appretince, not because he plays the same way, but cuz Oov is his COACH. Not a coach like January for Khan, SKT has his own, but additionally has Kingdom and Oov as trainer coaches. Now if you are a terran player-coach, what player can you train the best? a terran. So Oov really worked hard with Fantasy, he referred to this in some interviews too, as Kingdom with Best. Why do you think Best's nickname is The Devil's aprentice? Don't try too hard, i will give you a hint Kingdom = '' the Devil Toss" Try to think befor you post Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough Peace... Do you honestly think progamers' day is more than 70 hours long (taking into account is that average SC match is about 10-12 minutes) ? If not, they should do it cause they are pro That means they have to play like god for their fans I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!! Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team Go flash, go !!! pls shoot yourself!!! If they play 24 hours a day, no sleep no toilet or anything than they could play around 100 games. The only thing that soothes me is that you're a Flash fan, it would be so emberassing if a mindless fa**t like you would be the fan of my favorite gamers, but this way it's ok, i'm used to Flash fans who have IQ below 40. (no offence for those who cheer for Flash and arent idiots like this guy) It's funny to see a dumb guy like you around here You didn't notice I wrote this for fun? Do you really think a fan who cheers gosu players can think like that? You're so retarded man, you should learn to read articles not so seriously And to finish, I'm not a Flash fan, I just noticed he's kind of genius regarding what he accomplished for his age And if I said he would be number one again, it's because he's very very good for reactivity I'm realistic, I know that Midas won't be number one but who cares? I'm one of his fan So give me a break, dumbass so you register, arrive at this topic, throw out shit like "I dont know why ppl tell Fantasy is Oov's apprentice" + Show Spoiler +If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best and " fantasy is playin 400 games a day" + Show Spoiler +
Don't know, I just can't imagine Oov playing vs Fantasy, Oov said he can't play more than 20 games per day and Fantasy plays like 400 games per day so...
But I can imagine Midas teaching Fantasy how to control 180 marines at the same time
I'm happy that Oov came back to play but it's clearly difficult for him to compete with the new players, they play at a level Oov can't follow, it's sad but it's true
But SKT1 is definitely a good team, not as good as STX but that's cool enough
Peace...
(just to point out the 2 most obvious stupidity), and when you get answer for both of them in a quite manner way, considering the level of posts, explained why are you terribly wrong at both points you write an additional comment + Show Spoiler +
If not, they should do it cause they are pro
That means they have to play like god for their fans
I don't care they don't have time to sleep, I want results and I want it now !!!
Except for Flash, he's the exception, he can beat anyone and still go to school the day
He's a genius, when I see him, I can tell he'll be back soon at the first place of the kespa ranking
There's only one guy who has a chance against Flash and this guy is in SKT1 team
Go flash, go !!!
Than you get your ass flamed out cuz it's too much for every ppl who's patient enough to still read your "comments", and as answer you pull out a pathetic "you shouldnt take that seriously, it was a joke" That's more than pathetic, you don't have a single normal comment on TL and you defend your nonsenseces with "that was a joke" argument when you're out o everything, and call me dumb, retarded and everything. C'mon people, pls read the 4 comments from this guy posted here and say that it sounds like a joke, or it sounds anything tolerable. There might be serious problems with me after all. PLEASE MODERATORS BAN THIS GUY! Why you want me to be banned? What I said to you made you cry? Poor baby, I didn't want to hurt you. Sorry about what you had to endure, now you're a big boy. Don't cry everytime someone tell you what you trully are.
He already asnwered your question in his post, but to his consolance, your post just sealed your fate. See ya.
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United States10774 Posts
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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so many comments for this PR :O and lol@bebercast
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Lol,looks like 13 wasn't his lucky number,he got only 13 comments.
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That's what happens when you argue like a kindergarten brat.
So how about the next PR? Waiting for Best vs Effort in GOMTV Ro16 on Sunday?
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no...idk about Jaedong over BeST
BeST is on fire
and i think he should be up as high as if not higher than Jangbi
otherwise
great ranking
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Any TL member that wins their YGosu game for Power Rank.
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On December 06 2008 14:18 soudo wrote:
Any TL member that wins their YGosu game for Power Rank.
For top 3
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On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s
Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times .
All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore ....
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On December 06 2008 12:04 XeRO[BluE] wrote:
no...idk about Jaedong over BeST
BeST is on fire
and i think he should be up as high as if not higher than Jangbi
otherwise
great ranking
Best is on fire losing in MSL offlines . I can't call that on fire , but he is doing well .
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On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore ....
There's a really good thread about luck in ZvZ i will find it for you.
That's it, i found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83182
it basicly denies the importance of luck in ZvZ. However be sure to read MYM.Testie's comment on the topic, (it's on the first page, you will find it) to get a better view of the problem
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protoss is dominating this rank
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United States10774 Posts
On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore ....
your reasoning is flawed. just because zvz is more luck based than pvp doesn't mean a player can't be dominant in it. it has a bigger luck factor than any other matchup in starcraft, yet jaedong overcomes it by playing that much better. there are no other zerg players who compare to jaedong's skill level in zvz. pvp, on the other hand, has a much, much higher competition. notice how the best players these days happen to be protoss? therefore, although pvp is less luck based than zvz, you see protoss players losing to other protoss players, because they are all so damn good. i hope you understand what i am trying to say.
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9070 Posts
just 29 another posts of trash talking and we will hit 800...all time record
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So have we concluded:
1 Bisu
2 Stork
3-6 (in some order) Jangbi/Free/Flash/Jaedong
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On December 07 2008 01:50 wswordsmen wrote:
So have we concluded:
1 Bisu
2 Stork
3-6 (in some order) Jangbi/Free/Flash/Jaedong
I think Jaedong should be 7,Kal was performing better this month besides his embarassing loss vs Fake Yellow.
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My personal opinion here is that Jaedong is playing below expectations and needs to drop.
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On December 07 2008 03:05 NathanSC wrote:
My personal opinion here is that Jaedong is playing below expectations and needs to drop.
unfortunately, I agree
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On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore ....
I can give Best's example here: he was over 80% PvP until he meet stork ( ~84% or somethin` like that ), but I don`t want to argue with u `coz u seem to be a nice person oh and yeah, good post from OneOther , he sums it up really nice.
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My prediction :
(some spoiler inside)
+ Show Spoiler +
1- Bisu : almost untouchable, while is opponent try hard (look at is come back against none other than calm)
2 - Free : ok he lost to bisu and flash (what a shame ...), but this guy has skills, look at him playing that's all I have to say...
3 - Jangbi : He was not as close as free to bisu's skill , and lost to Effort, in my opinion not champion material yet, but a very good kiddo
4 - Stork : after he got what he wanted, it seem that stork whant to sleep a little more than he used to in two years of perfect consistancy
5 - Flash : still strong, so far so good in pl and gom
6 - Kal : same as above
7 - Best : Same as above, but don't loose again to insurance terran, and what is your problem with MSL prelim ! kizoo_major then inyeon[3.33] ?!
8 - Jaedong : ouch rough month again, RoRo, Tempest,sea, fbh but I still believe in jaedong skills ... stop misplace lurk egg and overgreedy builds and you'll be fine.
9 - 10 : hmm i don't know maybe FBH ? Yarnc ?
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bisu - stork - flash - jangbi - free - best - kal - jaedong - fantasy - calm
protoss, indeed.
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My top 10 would be:
1. Bisu-I am biased,but Bisu was incredible this month and I think Stork lost his edge a little. I wouldn't be concerned about him yet,but he didn't look that good this month. At least as Bisu. And about Bisu I don't think I have to say much,if you've been watching his games this month,you know what I'm talking about.
2. Stork- Stork is living on his last month performance right now,but it was so fucking good that placing anybody but Bisu above him would be outrageous,and even Bisu is questionable.
3. Flash-Flash really looks like his old self again. His fucking great,his T v Z has some problems,but in his last two games in the MU it looked like it is fixed.
4. Free- Free wasn't as impressive this month as in the last month,but he is still carrying the WStars along with Zero and GGplay,and winning very important matches.
5. Jangbi- He is very close to Free in skill,but I think Free is a little bit more impressive right now.
6. Kal- Kal looks solid in the Proleague for the first time in his life. Okay,he lost some matches,and had an embarassing loss against Yarnc,which reminded me of the old,unstable Kal,but he won crucial ace matches in the Proleague.
7. Jaedong-Ah,Jaedong,why the fuck are you not the Tyrant you used to be? Pls,get your shit back together so we can watch those awesome rapes again,the ground filled with terran blood and vessels exploding,the blue blood of the dragoons,the exposion of probes and sairs,and the death of many good zealots and high templars. All those people above him are still in the Gom and are seeds in at least one Starleague,and much impressive than Jaedong in the Proleague,but I think he is still better than Best because...well,because he is still Jaedong.
8. Best- Best hasn't been shining lately either. He is carrying Skt1 along with Bisu,but had tough losses this month and was knocked out of the MSL in his best MU. His P v P doesn't look unbeatable and he lost to Hwasin in P vT. And I wonder if he can beat Effort in Gom. I personally don't think so,but I hope.
9.Pusan-Pusan is scary and spectaculer,I think he needs to be on this PR. He was knocked out of the MSL,but I think being good in Proleague is more impressive than some players who are in a league and play like shit.
10. FBH-FBH has been carrying Khan to many victories this month,and he beat his rival,Savior yet again,and the last two months,he has beaten nearly every player that counts at least once.
CBNC-Effort,Calm,Zero,Yarnc.
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My list would be:
Bisu: he kicks asses
Stork: last month is enough to be 2nd
Flash: i hate you, loose some games, Free gave the direct game for you, so i cant put him above you
Free: he plays more than the other tosses so if he looses some tough games, not a problem
Jangbi: he's very good but not S class
Kal: inconsistent as hell, but he played too good to drop him lower
Best: very good PL stat, though he needs some new batteries(some new bo's for fck's sake)
Jaedong: pls get your shit together
FBH: he's very good, but unreliable and cannot make far in any SL, and his PvT STILL SUX
Calm/Effort they are doing fairly well, Effort being the only zerg hope in GOM, and since he beated Jangbi, and GOM doesnt uses Byzantium he might crush some tosses. And calm is the best PL player of STX, and they are owning so that counts a lot
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On December 07 2008 03:21 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore .... I can give Best's example here: he was over 80% PvP until he meet stork ( ~84% or somethin` like that ), but I don`t want to argue with u `coz u seem to be a nice person oh and yeah, good post from OneOther , he sums it up really nice.
And then he lost to a random guy in offlines 2 - 0 . In PvP there are to much gambles that makes it more luck based then the other mirror MUs thats what i think ....
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United States42531 Posts
Jaedong is singlehandedly keeping Lecaf in the proleague.
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On December 07 2008 06:06 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 03:21 Jaeden wrote:On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore .... I can give Best's example here: he was over 80% PvP until he meet stork ( ~84% or somethin` like that ), but I don`t want to argue with u `coz u seem to be a nice person oh and yeah, good post from OneOther , he sums it up really nice. And then he lost to a random guy in offlines 2 - 0 . In PvP there are to much gambles that makes it more luck based then the other mirror MUs thats what i think ....
because he was knocked out of his top shape
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On December 07 2008 03:22 MisterKatosS wrote:My prediction : (some spoiler inside) + Show Spoiler +
1- Bisu : almost untouchable, while is opponent try hard (look at is come back against none other than calm)
2 - Free : ok he lost to bisu and flash (what a shame ...), but this guy has skills, look at him playing that's all I have to say...
3 - Jangbi : He was not as close as free to bisu's skill , and lost to Effort, in my opinion not champion material yet, but a very good kiddo
4 - Stork : after he got what he wanted, it seem that stork whant to sleep a little more than he used to in two years of perfect consistancy
5 - Flash : still strong, so far so good in pl and gom
6 - Kal : same as above
7 - Best : Same as above, but don't loose again to insurance terran, and what is your problem with MSL prelim ! kizoo_major then inyeon[3.33] ?!
8 - Jaedong : ouch rough month again, RoRo, Tempest,sea, fbh but I still believe in jaedong skills ... stop misplace lurk egg and overgreedy builds and you'll be fine.
9 - 10 : hmm i don't know maybe FBH ? Yarnc ?
sorry but, ur PR seems really OFF to me, no offence, I mean, stork #4 ?hmm
I agree with Darth Peter's, although, JD could be even lower, don`t get me wrong, I LOVE JAEDONG, look at my sig, but ...
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On December 07 2008 00:33 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore .... your reasoning is flawed. just because zvz is more luck based than pvp doesn't mean a player can't be dominant in it. it has a bigger luck factor than any other matchup in starcraft, yet jaedong overcomes it by playing that much better. there are no other zerg players who compare to jaedong's skill level in zvz. pvp, on the other hand, has a much, much higher competition. notice how the best players these days happen to be protoss? therefore, although pvp is less luck based than zvz, you see protoss players losing to other protoss players, because they are all so damn good. i hope you understand what i am trying to say.
Ok so if they are that good how come Best lost to some newby in a series in offlines who continued to lose to an other newby , Bisu lost to a guy's first televised game and he beat Free in MSL and then continued to lose to him in PL and Stork after beating the so called best PvPers in Bisu and Best then continued to lose to kal , pusan and by.movie who starts to kill everyone in PL . How come eny toss is winning vs enyone are all the tosses that good that they can't win over more then 2 opponents and even players who play their first matches can take a game and play superior to them ? This by.Movie guy just got to see PL and is already starting to kill in this MU .
And Jaedong is not the only dominant ZvZ player as of late Yarnc is dominating in this mu as well . I can't imagine Flash losing to a terran player thats level below him a mirror MU unless it happens .
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On December 07 2008 07:23 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 00:33 OneOther wrote:On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore .... your reasoning is flawed. just because zvz is more luck based than pvp doesn't mean a player can't be dominant in it. it has a bigger luck factor than any other matchup in starcraft, yet jaedong overcomes it by playing that much better. there are no other zerg players who compare to jaedong's skill level in zvz. pvp, on the other hand, has a much, much higher competition. notice how the best players these days happen to be protoss? therefore, although pvp is less luck based than zvz, you see protoss players losing to other protoss players, because they are all so damn good. i hope you understand what i am trying to say. Ok so if they are that good how come Best lost to some newby in a series in offlines who continued to lose to an other newby , Bisu lost to a guy's first televised game and he beat Free in MSL and then continued to lose to him in PL and Stork after beating the so called best PvPers in Bisu and Best then continued to lose to kal , pusan and by.movie who starts to kill everyone in PL . How come eny toss is winning vs enyone are all the tosses that good that they can't win over more then 2 opponents and even players who play their first matches can take a game and play superior to them ? This by.Movie guy just got to see PL and is already starting to kill in this MU . And Jaedong is not the only dominant ZvZ player as of late Yarnc is dominating in this mu as well . I can't imagine Flash losing to a terran player thats level below him a mirror MU unless it happens .
Jd lost to roro, it happens, every good player loses from time to time
EDIT: ok sorry, I have to go to sleep now, coz I have to wake up in about 4 hours c`ya
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Okay, this is a rant, you can repsond if you want to, but I just want to get this off my chest.
When Flash was playing crappily after he lost to Lux, just like Jaedong is right now, the lowest he dropped for 2 months was 3rd. WTF?! Jaedong dropped to fourth in one month, but Flash sitll gets to stay on top. I don't hate Flash, if this happened to anybody, I would have the same reaction. I guess I'm whining more about what happened, not who it happened to. I mean seriously, he was playing like 7-10th PR and he still got "Benefit of the Doubt".
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On December 07 2008 07:50 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Okay, this is a rant, you can repsond if you want to, but I just want to get this off my chest.
When Flash was playing crappily after he lost to Lux, just like Jaedong is right now, the lowest he dropped for 2 months was 3rd. WTF?! Jaedong dropped to fourth in one month, but Flash sitll gets to stay on top. I don't hate Flash, if this happened to anybody, I would have the same reaction. I guess I'm whining more about what happened, not who it happened to. I mean seriously, he was playing like 7-10th PR and he still got "Benefit of the Doubt".
I completely agree with you about this stuff,but when Flash was playing like shit,there were no players to be ranked above him,because there were only 4 good players at that time. Jaedong,who was ranked above Flash those month,ForGG,who was ranked higher one month,and Best,who also choked at that moment,so he couldn't be above Flash. Now there are several good players,who are just too good to be put below Jaedong.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 07 2008 07:23 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 00:33 OneOther wrote:On December 06 2008 20:56 raga4ka wrote:On December 03 2008 01:34 Jaeden wrote:On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.
stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2. While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans? Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players. I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come .... ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later. About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...) EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet) Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?! and : + Show Spoiler +I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s Then how can you explain Jaedong haveing 80 % rate in the MU clearly luck can't touch him most of the times . All mirrors have a little luck in them . But when you see a player dominating so strong in a MU like Flash and Jaedong are doing you can see that skill prevails over luck there . PvP even no names take out big guns eny day you can't say that someone has the best PvP in that mu enymore .... your reasoning is flawed. just because zvz is more luck based than pvp doesn't mean a player can't be dominant in it. it has a bigger luck factor than any other matchup in starcraft, yet jaedong overcomes it by playing that much better. there are no other zerg players who compare to jaedong's skill level in zvz. pvp, on the other hand, has a much, much higher competition. notice how the best players these days happen to be protoss? therefore, although pvp is less luck based than zvz, you see protoss players losing to other protoss players, because they are all so damn good. i hope you understand what i am trying to say. Ok so if they are that good how come Best lost to some newby in a series in offlines who continued to lose to an other newby , Bisu lost to a guy's first televised game and he beat Free in MSL and then continued to lose to him in PL and Stork after beating the so called best PvPers in Bisu and Best then continued to lose to kal , pusan and by.movie who starts to kill everyone in PL . How come eny toss is winning vs enyone are all the tosses that good that they can't win over more then 2 opponents and even players who play their first matches can take a game and play superior to them ? This by.Movie guy just got to see PL and is already starting to kill in this MU . And Jaedong is not the only dominant ZvZ player as of late Yarnc is dominating in this mu as well . I can't imagine Flash losing to a terran player thats level below him a mirror MU unless it happens .
Uhmm you missed my entire point. In fact, I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course a good player loses to an inferior player sometimes, but that doesn't mean that the matchup is based on luck. Everyone has off days, everyone has good days. Just because BeSt lost to some random player in the MSL prelims does not mean that PvP is based on luck. It simply means BeSt had a bad day, and the other guy hit the jackpot. Is PvZ luck based since July lost to Bul_T ? No. Is ZvT luck based since Jaedong lost to Frozean before? No. Games don't prove anything because they are merely games. Things happen. Best PvPer can certainly lose to an unknown player. Same with every other matchup.
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On December 07 2008 07:14 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 03:22 MisterKatosS wrote:My prediction : (some spoiler inside) + Show Spoiler +
1- Bisu : almost untouchable, while is opponent try hard (look at is come back against none other than calm)
2 - Free : ok he lost to bisu and flash (what a shame ...), but this guy has skills, look at him playing that's all I have to say...
3 - Jangbi : He was not as close as free to bisu's skill , and lost to Effort, in my opinion not champion material yet, but a very good kiddo
4 - Stork : after he got what he wanted, it seem that stork whant to sleep a little more than he used to in two years of perfect consistancy
5 - Flash : still strong, so far so good in pl and gom
6 - Kal : same as above
7 - Best : Same as above, but don't loose again to insurance terran, and what is your problem with MSL prelim ! kizoo_major then inyeon[3.33] ?!
8 - Jaedong : ouch rough month again, RoRo, Tempest,sea, fbh but I still believe in jaedong skills ... stop misplace lurk egg and overgreedy builds and you'll be fine.
9 - 10 : hmm i don't know maybe FBH ? Yarnc ?
sorry but, ur PR seems really OFF to me, no offence, I mean, stork #4 ?hmm I agree with Darth Peter's, although, JD could be even lower, don`t get me wrong, I LOVE JAEDONG, look at my sig, but ...
Well, 4 th spot does not seem that bad, maybe I am a bit biased, but since the OSL final he lost 4 game for 8 played (against Pusan,Kal,Movie and calm ).
And I believe the three players above him are hotter skill wise.
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On December 07 2008 12:17 MisterKatosS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 07:14 Jaeden wrote:On December 07 2008 03:22 MisterKatosS wrote:My prediction : (some spoiler inside) + Show Spoiler +
1- Bisu : almost untouchable, while is opponent try hard (look at is come back against none other than calm)
2 - Free : ok he lost to bisu and flash (what a shame ...), but this guy has skills, look at him playing that's all I have to say...
3 - Jangbi : He was not as close as free to bisu's skill , and lost to Effort, in my opinion not champion material yet, but a very good kiddo
4 - Stork : after he got what he wanted, it seem that stork whant to sleep a little more than he used to in two years of perfect consistancy
5 - Flash : still strong, so far so good in pl and gom
6 - Kal : same as above
7 - Best : Same as above, but don't loose again to insurance terran, and what is your problem with MSL prelim ! kizoo_major then inyeon[3.33] ?!
8 - Jaedong : ouch rough month again, RoRo, Tempest,sea, fbh but I still believe in jaedong skills ... stop misplace lurk egg and overgreedy builds and you'll be fine.
9 - 10 : hmm i don't know maybe FBH ? Yarnc ?
sorry but, ur PR seems really OFF to me, no offence, I mean, stork #4 ?hmm I agree with Darth Peter's, although, JD could be even lower, don`t get me wrong, I LOVE JAEDONG, look at my sig, but ... Well, 4 th spot does not seem that bad, maybe I am a bit biased, but since the OSL final he lost 4 game for 8 played (against Pusan,Kal,Movie and calm ). And I believe the three players above him are hotter skill wise.
Any spot on the power rank isn't bad top 10 of a field of 300+ (taken from the combined total members of all 12 teams.) that puts them in the top 3.33% at worst. Also they are the best in the world so they really are the top 10 of thousands if not tens of thousands.
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On December 07 2008 17:26 Sentenal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Out of curiosity, what is the IEF?
International Esports Festival 2008
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+ Show Spoiler +I think it`s pretty much safe to say now that best deserves to be above Jaedong... last zerg hope: HoeJJa, doesn`t sound really good
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On December 07 2008 20:05 Jaeden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it`s pretty much safe to say now that best deserves to be above Jaedong... last zerg hope: HoeJJa, doesn`t sound really good
+ Show Spoiler +
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+ Show Spoiler +Yeah,and he is gonna face Bisu. Zergs are fucked in the ass,and there is a good possibility,that there will be another all protoss semifinals.
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On December 07 2008 20:08 Darth Peter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah,and he is gonna face Bisu. Zergs are fucked in the ass,and there is a good possibility,that there will be another all protoss semifinals.
+ Show Spoiler +99% if Bisu can take out Flash.
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i hate all of you who watch GOM live, excluding me from this topic for hours :p
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On December 07 2008 20:10 abakben wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 20:08 Darth Peter wrote:On December 07 2008 20:07 abakben wrote:On December 07 2008 20:05 Jaeden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it`s pretty much safe to say now that best deserves to be above Jaedong... last zerg hope: HoeJJa, doesn`t sound really good + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +Yeah,and he is gonna face Bisu. Zergs are fucked in the ass,and there is a good possibility,that there will be another all protoss semifinals. + Show Spoiler +99% if Bisu can take out Flash.
+ Show Spoiler +and he will, if he continues to play like this
edit: 800 posts, wooh!
edit2: On December 07 2008 20:27 Geo.Rion wrote:
i hate all of you who watch GOM live, excluding me from this topic for hours :p
why don`t u watch it? it works better now, no more lagg at all
uh and maybe Jaehoon will make a great player someday D: He beat some really good opponents lately, and only lost to the very best
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i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament
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Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR.
First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best.
JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3.
Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world.
Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best....
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On December 07 2008 20:07 abakben wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 20:05 Jaeden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it`s pretty much safe to say now that best deserves to be above Jaedong... last zerg hope: HoeJJa, doesn`t sound really good + Show Spoiler +last zerg hope HoeJJa NO COMMENT
+ Show Spoiler +this HoeJJa has 80% win rate against protoss
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On December 08 2008 00:00 Phradamon wrote:Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR. First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best. JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3. Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world. Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best....
Best is 8-4 this month beating great names of EVERY race. Anytime is good in pvp, their match was awesome Best played beastly, there's nothing wrong with his mirror. Terrans, Leta ,lost to Hwasin, that was more the fault of the map and the builds i think. And ZERGS: fcking beaten effort in bo3 and Zero in an ace match. Best is the most reliable ace in the PL up to now.
Tempest doesn`t deserve a spot
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On December 08 2008 00:00 Phradamon wrote:Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR. First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best. JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3. Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world. Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best....
Tempest doesn`t deserve a spot, maybe a mention in CBNC, just MAYBE. There are more deserving players imo
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On December 08 2008 01:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2008 00:00 Phradamon wrote:Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR. First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best. JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3. Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world. Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best.... Best is 8-4 this month beating great names of EVERY race. Anytime is good in pvp, their match was awesome Best played beastly, there's nothing wrong with his mirror. Terrans, Leta ,lost to Hwasin, that was more the fault of the map and the builds i think. And ZERGS: fcking beaten effort in bo3 and Zero in an ace match. Best is the most reliable ace in the PL up to now. Tempest doesn`t deserve a spot
So is it 8-4 or 4-3?
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On December 08 2008 01:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2008 00:00 Phradamon wrote:Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR. First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best. JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3. Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world. Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best.... Best is 8-4 this month beating great names of EVERY race. Anytime is good in pvp, their match was awesome Best played beastly, there's nothing wrong with his mirror. Terrans, Leta ,lost to Hwasin, that was more the fault of the map and the builds i think. And ZERGS: fcking beaten effort in bo3 and Zero in an ace match. Best is the most reliable ace in the PL up to now. Tempest doesn`t deserve a spot
thanks for spoiling
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On December 08 2008 03:00 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2008 01:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 08 2008 00:00 Phradamon wrote:Im not happy with Best being above Jaedong next PR. First of all JD have a better month, despite losing to alot of people. But same shitty losses come to BeSt[HyO] too but JD lost to better players than Best. JD is 8-4 in november and Best is 4-3. Secondly, altough JD is on slump for a second month he still have better results overall in november than BeSt[HyO]. Best lost to a no name toss (inyeon) in his best MU, lost to Tempest, lost to free. This is unacceptable for high expectations from best PvP'er from the world. Also i would consider Tempest for PR for no. 10 since he heat both JD and Best and proven himself to be consistent, being 5-3 in november, better than Best.... Best is 8-4 this month beating great names of EVERY race. Anytime is good in pvp, their match was awesome Best played beastly, there's nothing wrong with his mirror. Terrans, Leta ,lost to Hwasin, that was more the fault of the map and the builds i think. And ZERGS: fcking beaten effort in bo3 and Zero in an ace match. Best is the most reliable ace in the PL up to now. Tempest doesn`t deserve a spot thanks for spoiling
The VODs are already up, you should check them befor you come here where even the live results are spoiled sometimes. If everyone will add spoiler tag if he wants to write about sg which happened in the past 24 hours this topic wouldn't be quite exciting
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On December 07 2008 23:12 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament
You should use spoilers ...
+ Show Spoiler +Best did improve one thing incredibly: his sair micro ...
But I agree he still have too learn something from bisu
spoil skt vs woongjin :+ Show Spoiler + watch his game against roro this one is a bit more impressive
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On December 08 2008 10:58 MisterKatosS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 23:12 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament You should use spoilers ... + Show Spoiler +Best did improve one thing incredibly: his sair micro ...
But I agree he still have too learn something from bisu
spoil skt vs woongjin : + Show Spoiler + watch his game against roro this one is a bit more impressive
his sair micro is still weak, but you can tell he understands the timings and the strategy much better. seriously once he learns how to control his corsairs he'll be an absolute beast
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United States10774 Posts
there's a lot more than just corsair micro to pvz, as you probably know. it's a careless micro mistake and won't make best's pvz that much better. he lacks in multiple aspects of the matchup imo. i am sure he will be better at it but there's no way he will be an absolute beast at it. he doesn't have the flexibility, variation, and smoothness that other good pvzers do.
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yeah that was poorly phrased, i meant that it seems best is becoming competent (sans his sairs) in pvz, and that he'll soon be a beast (in general, because he doesn't really need to be a top pvz to be a top player, just competence).
i know he's lacking but you can tell he's at least improving. but because he's learning, he's not playing intuitively, yet. and his corsair micro really hurts the effectiveness of his corsair reaver in any given game, which really hurts his build and in-game flexibility, like you said.
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On December 08 2008 12:09 OneOther wrote:
there's a lot more than just corsair micro to pvz, as you probably know. it's a careless micro mistake and won't make best's pvz that much better. he lacks in multiple aspects of the matchup imo. i am sure he will be better at it but there's no way he will be an absolute beast at it. he doesn't have the flexibility, variation, and smoothness that other good pvzers do.
but we can`t know for sure. Maybe he`ll improve greatly and become THE best, even in PvZ. I`ve seen so many things happenin` in the pro scene...Impossible is nothing
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On December 08 2008 13:12 traced wrote:
yeah that was poorly phrased, i meant that it seems best is becoming competent (sans his sairs) in pvz, and that he'll soon be a beast (in general, because he doesn't really need to be a top pvz to be a top player, just competence).
i know he's lacking but you can tell he's at least improving. but because he's learning, he's not playing intuitively, yet. and his corsair micro really hurts the effectiveness of his corsair reaver in any given game, which really hurts his build and in-game flexibility, like you said.
he clearly learnt a lot from Bisu, but his macro based style remained the same, it does not look good but it's efficient for sure, at least right now
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On December 08 2008 10:58 MisterKatosS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 23:12 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament You should use spoilers ... + Show Spoiler +Best did improve one thing incredibly: his sair micro ...
But I agree he still have too learn something from bisu
spoil skt vs woongjin : + Show Spoiler + watch his game against roro this one is a bit more impressive
you mean against Zero? that's not that impressive either, he clearly had better macro and when he succeeded in sniping the Hive the deal was sealed. but he really made some wierd decisions, as atacking lurker+hydra with archon zela. he did "won" the battle but lost a lot, fourtanetly for him his macro didnt let him down. I wasnt impressed really, but he became clearly better.
And i explained why always using spoiler tag is stupid. When the VODs are up you can watch them. When they arent and somebody spoils the results cuz he watched live, yeah that's enerving, but yet again you can avoid that too.
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I wonder how far Jaedong falls. Stork, Bisu, Free, Jangbi, Flash are all definitely above him. But it's still debatable whether he should fall below Kal, Fantasy, or Best.
I think the above 9 players should definitely be in the top 10. The last place seems to be a crapshoot though. So many If you go by GOM Mind should be in here(as he's also performed nicely in the PL recently). Otherwise, you have a ton of top PL performers like FBH, Yarnc, Pusan, and Effort. Personally, I'd go with FBH. Fanboyism aside, he had the best performance in the individual leagues out of all the candidates. And his opponents have been top notch(wins against Jaedong x2, Savior, Lomo, Kal)
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On December 08 2008 20:25 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2008 10:58 MisterKatosS wrote:On December 07 2008 23:12 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament You should use spoilers ... + Show Spoiler +Best did improve one thing incredibly: his sair micro ...
But I agree he still have too learn something from bisu
spoil skt vs woongjin : + Show Spoiler + watch his game against roro this one is a bit more impressive you mean against Zero? that's not that impressive either, he clearly had better macro and when he succeeded in sniping the Hive the deal was sealed. but he really made some wierd decisions, as atacking lurker+hydra with archon zela. he did "won" the battle but lost a lot, fourtanetly for him his macro didnt let him down. I wasnt impressed really, but he became clearly better. And i explained why always using spoiler tag is stupid. When the VODs are up you can watch them. When they arent and somebody spoils the results cuz he watched live, yeah that's enerving, but yet again you can avoid that too.
Yep Zero you are right.
But are you talking about the battle at 12:40 ??
If yes I totally disagree with you, yes he engaged with zeal archon, but lurks were unburrowed, clumped on hydra, in such a good position that he lost like 12 zeal and an Archon to 12 hydra ,9 lurks and 2 muta, not a bad deal if you ask me even good fast baller decision.
Well using spoilers wont hurt and is simply nicer to people who did not watched the game yet, what 's the problem with that ?
anyway his sair seemed so much reactive to me than before, remember the final vs July his sair was amateur level loosing like 5 early to scourges ... it 's not perfect but I think it 's clear that there is an improvement.
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On December 08 2008 22:44 MisterKatosS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2008 20:25 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 08 2008 10:58 MisterKatosS wrote:On December 07 2008 23:12 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i'm still not impressed with best's PvZ, but he advanced in GOM in his weakest MU against the best Zerg left in the tournament You should use spoilers ... + Show Spoiler +Best did improve one thing incredibly: his sair micro ...
But I agree he still have too learn something from bisu
spoil skt vs woongjin : + Show Spoiler + watch his game against roro this one is a bit more impressive you mean against Zero? that's not that impressive either, he clearly had better macro and when he succeeded in sniping the Hive the deal was sealed. but he really made some wierd decisions, as atacking lurker+hydra with archon zela. he did "won" the battle but lost a lot, fourtanetly for him his macro didnt let him down. I wasnt impressed really, but he became clearly better. And i explained why always using spoiler tag is stupid. When the VODs are up you can watch them. When they arent and somebody spoils the results cuz he watched live, yeah that's enerving, but yet again you can avoid that too. Yep Zero you are right. But are you talking about the battle at 12:40 ?? If yes I totally disagree with you, yes he engaged with zeal archon, but lurks were unburrowed, clumped on hydra, in such a good position that he lost like 12 zeal and an Archon to 12 hydra ,9 lurks and 2 muta, not a bad deal if you ask me even good fast baller decision. Well using spoilers wont hurt and is simply nicer to people who did not watched the game yet, what 's the problem with that ? anyway his sair seemed so much reactive to me than before, remember the final vs July his sair was amateur level loosing like 5 early to scourges ... it 's not perfect but I think it 's clear that there is an improvement.
corsair micro 11:20... But yeah it's siginficantly better than it was overall, he learnt something from Bisu
about that battle, yes, you were right i wasn't that bad,(it just looked too bad for me, i guess i wasnt paying attention on the first time) altough there were only 7 lurkers not 9, and the survivor zealots were badly damaged.
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I think someone misscorrectly quoted me
JD is 8-4 in NOVEMBER and BeSt[HyO] is still 4-3. The december results must be taken into consideration next PR, i clearly said this is for NOVEMBER results.
And in NOVEMBER Tempest is best than BeSt[HyO].
Also, do not bring into consideration PL results since PL has started for more than 2 months ago.
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9070 Posts
meh, setting deadlines for the PR is meaningless
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you cant watch a game that Tempest plays and say that he is better than Best. That just... doesn't work.
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And that is his only result he achieved in the last 5 months. Come on,even considering Tempest for PR is ridicoulos. He beat Best in one game,and beat a slump starting Jaedong. Big fucking deal. He got his ass handed to him in every other match he played. I mean look at his stats.
I know PR should be for this month,but you have to be good before that so you can be taken into consideration. Tempest wasn't. He sucked. I mean come on,be serious. I see no way in hell that Tempest could take a spot away from FBH,Pusan,Effort,Calm,Fantasy,Leta,Zero. Even giving him a CBNC would be waaaay too generous. I mean his teammate,Lucifer had at least results,and he still didn't manage to have a ranking. The players in the PR are usually carrying their teams on their shoulders,or destroying everybody in a Starleague,or both at the same time. So what did Tempest do from these two? Beating Best got his team a total great amount of one win. OMG. And I am sad to say that,but beating Jaedong these days isn't that much of a deal either. Just look. Everybody beats Jaedong these days unfortunately. Sangho beat him. Does he deserves a ranking? No. Or wait,he deserves a ranking more than Tempest,because he at least wins some matches.
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You must not have read what I wrote. Watch the games!
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Tempest hardly sucks. Hes very, very good. Hes just unrefined and inexperienced. He doesn't deserve PR, but he very well could in two months, maybe even one.
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On December 09 2008 07:49 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Tempest hardly sucks. Hes very, very good. Hes just unrefined and inexperienced. He doesn't deserve PR, but he very well could in two months, maybe even one.
That we will. Perhapps you're right. But I think that he is a neo-lucifer without results.
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On December 09 2008 07:49 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Tempest hardly sucks. Hes very, very good. Hes just unrefined and inexperienced. He doesn't deserve PR, but he very well could in two months, maybe even one.
i don't like Tempest, his most entertaining game was when he rushed a Terran and destroyed his only turret and wall in with dragoons and let the dt's enter the base. The kid wins some games, his play isnt impressive at all and not reliable
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United States10328 Posts
new power rank please? it's more than a week into the month now
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On December 09 2008 06:08 Darth Peter wrote:And that is his only result he achieved in the last 5 months. Come on,even considering Tempest for PR is ridicoulos. He beat Best in one game,and beat a slump starting Jaedong. Big fucking deal. He got his ass handed to him in every other match he played. I mean look at his Stats. I know PR should be for this month,but you have to be good before that so you can be taken into consideration. Tempest wasn't. He sucked. I mean come on,be serious. I see no way in hell that Tempest could take a spot away from FBH, Pusan, EffOrt, Calm, fantasy, Leta, ZerO. Even giving him a CBNC would be waaaay too generous. I mean his teammate, LuCifer had at least results,and he still didn't manage to have a ranking. The players in the PR are usually carrying their teams on their shoulders,or destroying everybody in a Starleague,or both at the same time. So what did Tempest do from these two? Beating Best got his team a total great amount of one win. OMG. And I am sad to say that,but beating Jaedong these days isn't that much of a deal either. Just look. Everybody beats Jaedong these days unfortunately. SangHo beat him. Does he deserves a ranking? No. Or wait,he deserves a ranking more than Tempest,because he at least wins some matches.
Oh, what the hell, lets take into consideration only Jaedong losses to al no names, lets not do that to BeSt[HyO]. Very objective!
We dont count here what Best did few months before, the PR is for only one month and data, records, wins say it all. And despite Best lost to no names and other good tosses (which should be punishing for him just like it is for Jeadong) Tempest performed better than expected, which should give him few points.
If you say Best is such a strong stud, than Tempest beating him a strong argument for Tempest to be on PR. If you say otherweise, than Jaedong should be above Best with both losing to no names but JD having stronger results.
Enough with BeSt[HyO] fanboism.
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On December 10 2008 01:49 Phradamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 06:08 Darth Peter wrote:And that is his only result he achieved in the last 5 months. Come on,even considering Tempest for PR is ridicoulos. He beat Best in one game,and beat a slump starting Jaedong. Big fucking deal. He got his ass handed to him in every other match he played. I mean look at his Stats. I know PR should be for this month,but you have to be good before that so you can be taken into consideration. Tempest wasn't. He sucked. I mean come on,be serious. I see no way in hell that Tempest could take a spot away from FBH, Pusan, EffOrt, Calm, fantasy, Leta, ZerO. Even giving him a CBNC would be waaaay too generous. I mean his teammate, LuCifer had at least results,and he still didn't manage to have a ranking. The players in the PR are usually carrying their teams on their shoulders,or destroying everybody in a Starleague,or both at the same time. So what did Tempest do from these two? Beating Best got his team a total great amount of one win. OMG. And I am sad to say that,but beating Jaedong these days isn't that much of a deal either. Just look. Everybody beats Jaedong these days unfortunately. SangHo beat him. Does he deserves a ranking? No. Or wait,he deserves a ranking more than Tempest,because he at least wins some matches. Oh, what the hell, lets take into consideration only Jaedong losses to al no names, lets not do that to BeSt[HyO]. Very objective! We dont count here what Best did few months before, the PR is for only one month and data, records, wins say it all. And despite Best lost to no names and other good tosses (which should be punishing for him just like it is for Jeadong) Tempest performed better than expected, which should give him few points. If you say Best is such a strong stud, than Tempest beating him a strong argument for Tempest to be on PR. If you say otherweise, than Jaedong should be above Best with both losing to no names but JD having stronger results. Enough with BeSt[HyO] fanboism.
I'm sorry, but this Tempest love is beyond ridiculous. Tempest isn't even good enough to be PLAYING in the proleagues right now. There's a reason why KTF sends some no-name guy called Stats instead of Tempest for the past matches. It's because they don't trust Tempest enough to win games.
I think it's safe to say that if you aren't worthy of being in the PL lineup, then you shouldn't be on the PR. Best, who dominates PL games and wins Ace matches, and Tempest aren't even close.
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When I watch Tempest win, my first reaction is "how did that happen?"
When I watch Best win, my first reaction is "damn, that fool got dominated"
There is a pretty clear difference in their play, and I doubt that Tempest is even in the top 10 protoss players, much less the top 10 starcraft players. Though with this next power rank, there may not be too much of a difference between those two lists...
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On December 09 2008 02:12 Phradamon wrote:I think someone misscorrectly quoted me JD is 8-4 in NOVEMBER and BeSt[HyO] is still 4-3. The december results must be taken into consideration next PR, i clearly said this is for NOVEMBER results. And in NOVEMBER Tempest is best than BeSt[HyO]. Also, do not bring into consideration PL results since PL has started for more than 2 months ago.
The next power rank should take all results that have happened for the last PR, and results that happened since the last PR. If best has gone 8-4 or w/e he has gone since the last PR, then that is just as valid as Jaedong going 8-4 since the last one.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 10 2008 01:22 ]343[ wrote:new power rank please? it's more than a week into the month now
yeah, but my job is very erratic. i've been working almost nonstop for the last 3 days, outside of sleeping
Power Rank tomorrow though, I'm going to make time for it whether I can afford to or not
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On December 10 2008 01:49 Phradamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 06:08 Darth Peter wrote:And that is his only result he achieved in the last 5 months. Come on,even considering Tempest for PR is ridicoulos. He beat Best in one game,and beat a slump starting Jaedong. Big fucking deal. He got his ass handed to him in every other match he played. I mean look at his Stats. I know PR should be for this month,but you have to be good before that so you can be taken into consideration. Tempest wasn't. He sucked. I mean come on,be serious. I see no way in hell that Tempest could take a spot away from FBH, Pusan, EffOrt, Calm, fantasy, Leta, ZerO. Even giving him a CBNC would be waaaay too generous. I mean his teammate, LuCifer had at least results,and he still didn't manage to have a ranking. The players in the PR are usually carrying their teams on their shoulders,or destroying everybody in a Starleague,or both at the same time. So what did Tempest do from these two? Beating Best got his team a total great amount of one win. OMG. And I am sad to say that,but beating Jaedong these days isn't that much of a deal either. Just look. Everybody beats Jaedong these days unfortunately. SangHo beat him. Does he deserves a ranking? No. Or wait,he deserves a ranking more than Tempest,because he at least wins some matches. Oh, what the hell, lets take into consideration only Jaedong losses to al no names, lets not do that to BeSt[HyO]. Very objective! We dont count here what Best did few months before, the PR is for only one month and data, records, wins say it all. And despite Best lost to no names and other good tosses (which should be punishing for him just like it is for Jeadong) Tempest performed better than expected, which should give him few points. If you say Best is such a strong stud, than Tempest beating him a strong argument for Tempest to be on PR. If you say otherweise, than Jaedong should be above Best with both losing to no names but JD having stronger results. Enough with BeSt[HyO] fanboism.
I am not at all a Best fanboy. I like him,but he's not one of my favourite players. Jaedong is. And let us see. Jaedong lost not only to nonames,he lost to good players,well,he lost to everybody this month. Got eliminated from Gom,in which he was a strong favourite,he sucks in PL lately,and I fear he won't even qualify from his survivor group. Best lost to Inyeong in the MSL offline prelims. So what? Usually all big players qualify for only one league,and Best is already a seed in the OSL. Other than that,Best is great in PL,still in the Gom,beating probably the second best Zerg player in what is his weakest matchup. He wasn't untouchable in PvT and PvP this month,like he used to be,and that is why he gets 7 or 8 spots,depending on which spot will Jaedong get. So you by your logic,Inyeon should be on PR too? Or Tazza? Or By.Movie for beating the two best players on the world right now? They are equally justified as Tempest by their performance. And yeah,Tempest wasn't even used in PL. They use Stats instead,which says something. And yeah,good luck with writing the PR Steve,I can't wait for it!
EDIT: And Phradamon,if you read my comment again,than please show me where did I say Best should be placed above Jaedong. I don't remember saying that. If I said that,I must have been drunk because I don't remember that,or must be drunk now to not see it. And he cannot be punished even lower than he already is.
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Yes, acidents happen, like Bisu loosing to Tazza but Jaedong lost to alot of people and so is BeSt[HyO]. He even lost to Hwasin who is same level on tvP as FBH use to be untill 3 months ago.
Than he lost alot of games in his best MU: Stork, Tempest, Free, Ynyeon with accidental losts to by.great and EffOrt, but [where he won in bo3
Than we have JD, who lost to alot of players too, but have good stats too. Yes, it is more painfull to watch coz JD have alot of trophies won and Best have none. But this doesnt give the right to judge with 2 measures.
Also, so what if this PR comes after 10 days (30% of december games... oh dear) This discussion wouldnt happen if PR appears on time. I can understand the PR apearing with delay, but is unacceptable to mix results from 2 months, after all this is why PR exists.
Also, KTF if you see Stats vs Mind you wouldn ask why KTF use Stats in PvT coz best results Tempest have is in PvZ.
And is not so hard to accept Tempest in next PR since he IS in GOM and this year GOM is used to rank Kespa and we convened here in this very thread with OneOther that GOM have more importance than PL as any other individual league.
@ Darth Peter
I didnt say you said BeSt[HyO] should be above JD, i made the remark because it is discussed here on this topic.
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On December 10 2008 09:24 Phradamon wrote:Also, so what if this PR comes after 10 days (30% of december games... oh dear) This discussion wouldnt happen if PR appears on time. I can understand the PR apearing with delay, but is unacceptable to mix results from 2 months, after all this is why PR exists.
Wow, I can't believe you are serious. The Power Rank is about who is the best players at that point in time. Are you seriously going to sit there, and tell everyone that suckage in December should be exempt from the PR? Power Ranks are not some sort of reward passed on to progamers for doing well in a month. Power Ranks are rankings of who is currently the best. And every single game that happened in notable leagues (OSL, MSL, PL) have an effect on that, regardless of what exact date they were played on, since the previous rankings.
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On December 10 2008 05:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 01:22 ]343[ wrote:new power rank please? it's more than a week into the month now yeah, but my job is very erratic. i've been working almost nonstop for the last 3 days, outside of sleeping Power Rank tomorrow though, I'm going to make time for it whether I can afford to or not
WTF? Steve's back???
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JD for #7. Anything less may be rational, but it's blasphemy!
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On December 10 2008 14:36 GGQ wrote:
Bisu for #1!
Birthdate: Nov. 3 1989 / Birthplace: Yaesan Korea / Height: 178cm / Weight: 68kg / Blood Type: O / Team: SKTelecom(ex MBC Game Hero) / ID: Bisu[Shield] 김 택용 !
Bisu has been incredible, every game he plays, whatever the situation, you get the feeling that you know Kim Taek Yong will win.
Cept that game vs Tazza but that was just meh
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Hungary11289 Posts
If I was to move players from current PR for the next one, it would probably be:
Stork down
Bisu up
free down (one or two)
Jaedong down
Jangbi same or up
Flash up (maybe even #2)
BeSt same or one up
Kal same
Fantasy up
fOrGG out or stay 10
in: Maybe FBH, Leta, Calm? At the time being, you can mostly only reward those doing well in PL, and those are among the top performers for their teams.
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pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out
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On December 10 2008 18:26 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out
Jd out 2 times ?! big hater here ?
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On December 10 2008 18:38 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 18:26 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out
Jd out 2 times ?! big hater here ?
He's a moron too,how in earth should Kal be out? He played great.
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if FS doesn`t hurry up, this PR will hit 1000 posts!
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bisu #1
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seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!
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and also stork is like 3-4 after the OSL.. shouldnt even be top 5 imo..
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On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!
There is no single player on earth who gone 14 cc in every fucking game he played in for some time. That was his bullshit. I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won. Yeah,Flash is good again,but I wouldn't rank him above Bisu or Stork yet,especially not above Bisu. Flash was always very good in Proleague,but Bisu just won MSL and is good in PL too,just he isn't sent to nearly every ace matches just like Flash is. And Flash didn't really accomplish anything. Most of his victories are against mid class players,he didn't really beat top notch players except for Free and Fantasy,and out of his matches against Hyvaa and GGplay I am still not sure that he is the T v Z beast he used to be. I mean Hyvaa is shit,and GGplay isn't a top zerg anymore either,sure he has good result,but there are a lot better zergs than him,like Effort,Zero,Calm,Yarnc and Jaedong.
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On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!
What did you smoke while writing this ridiculouse shit? I want the same one
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On December 11 2008 06:24 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! There is no single player on earth who gone 14 cc in every fucking game he played in for some time. That was his bullshit. I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won. Yeah,Flash is good again,but I wouldn't rank him above Bisu or Stork yet,especially not above Bisu. Flash was always very good in Proleague,but Bisu just won MSL and is good in PL too,just he isn't sent to nearly every ace matches just like Flash is. And Flash didn't really accomplish anything. Most of his victories are against mid class players,he didn't really beat top notch players except for Free and Fantasy,and out of his matches against Hyvaa and GGplay I am still not sure that he is the T v Z beast he used to be. I mean Hyvaa is shit,and GGplay isn't a top zerg either,sure he has good result,but there are a lot better zergs than him,like Effort,Zero,Calm,Yarnc and Jaedong. GGplay is a top zerg lol...
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First proble: i didnt Say december results should not be taken into consideration. You didnt read my post, i guess...
1- PR that apears in december is for November results
2- The results for december should be taken into consideration for the next PR apearing on 2-3 of January.And its is quite logical that results hould be splitted coz round 1 of PL has gone and now is playing the MST and is not fair for certain players to mix results from a Season in 2 different PR's...
My PR
1. Bisu
2. Flash
3. free
4. Stork
5. JangBi
6. Kal
7. Jaedong
8. BeSt[HyO]
9. Leta
10. Pusan/Tempest
CNBC- Pusan/Tempest depending on who is on no 10, YellOw[ArnC], EffOrt, firebathero, ZerO, Calm
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On December 11 2008 07:40 Phradamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First proble: i didnt Say december results should not be taken into consideration. You didnt read my post, i guess... 1- PR that apears in december is for November results 2- The results for december should be taken into consideration for the next PR apearing on 2-3 of January.And its is quite logical that results hould be splitted coz round 1 of PL has gone and now is playing the MST and is not fair for certain players to mix results from a Season in 2 different PR's... My PR 1. Bisu2. Flash3. free 4. Stork5. JangBi6. Kal7. Jaedong8. BeSt[HyO] 9. Leta10. Pusan/ TempestCNBC- Pusan/ Tempest depending on who is on no 10, YellOw[ArnC], EffOrt, firebathero, ZerO, Calm
I bet he understood well, and I agree with him, the PR should have the players that are the top 10 atm, not last month.
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On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!
u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.
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On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.
What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.
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On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month. What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.
And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game.
Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill?
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On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month. What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed. And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game. Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill?
I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check).
I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX.
Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark.
I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill.
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On December 11 2008 11:50 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month. What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed. And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game. Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill? I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check). I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX. Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark. I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill.
Pretty much all pro-gamers today in all interviews claim that mechanically wise, all A-class gamers are very close to equal now. So if we assume they are right and you believe mind games aren't a significant part of the game then what is? If you think about it for more than 30 seconds you'll realize this is what Starcraft has evolved to.
I know what the PR is and you described it perfectly which is why it has no credibility whatsoever. The main problem is that everyone interprets things differently.
Example:
Scenario: Jaedong rapes Sea like a noob.
Fakesteve makes the list: "With the only loss coming from the strongest zerg right now, which no one can defeat, Sea gets number one."
Sea haters make the list: "Wow, any zerg could kill Sea that game. That was horrible"
Scenario: Flash loses to 9pool on his 14CC.
Flash-fans: "BUILDORDER WIN OMG UNLUCKY!"
zerg fans: "flash is so predictable."
You see my point? I have no problem with the fact the list is built on interpretations, but as soon as someone think they have "the truth" of whether a win is a skillbased win or not they don't understand starcraft.
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I don't think Sea haters exist, at least not on the TL boards
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On December 11 2008 15:53 bumatlarge wrote:
I don't think Sea haters exist, at least not on the TL boards
We're not supposed to talk about it, remember what happened to the last--
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Bisu should definately be #1 next PR
Stork and Bisu were neck-to-neck for #1, everyone was arguing Stork has been underperforming after OSL win and Bisu is still on fire after MSL win. Despite that fact, it was still hard to make a choice
However,
Bisu just recently beat Stork in BO5 at IEF Finals
Don't even try to argue IEF is not important or not, what matters is that Stork and Bisu played against each other and they gave us results so Bisu definately should be #1
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On December 11 2008 17:21 AzureEye wrote:
Bisu should definately be #1 next PR
Stork and Bisu were neck-to-neck for #1, everyone was arguing Stork has been underperforming after OSL win and Bisu is still on fire after MSL win. Despite that fact, it was still hard to make a choice
However,
Bisu just recently beat Stork in BO5 at IEF Finals
Don't even try to argue IEF is not important or not, what matters is that Stork and Bisu played against each other and they gave us results so Bisu definately should be #1
Was it a bo5? Strange, i only saw 3 games. But yes, they surely took in serious that series agianst each other, who gives a shit about Kespa counts it or not, 40.000$ are 40.000$ dollars, ppl kill for that ammount of money
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On December 11 2008 15:53 bumatlarge wrote:
I don't think Sea haters exist, at least not on the TL boards
I hate Sea. I hate the way his delicate hands firmly caress the keyboard. I hate the way he gently warms his dainty hands on his red rag. I hate his manly unit control. I hate him so much, I think he should be punished.
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Fakesteve decided to wait untill this one hits the 1000 post limit
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I don't see how the next PR can not have Yarnc on it. He's been playing absolutely stellar lately.
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On December 12 2008 01:30 Ideas wrote:
I don't see how the next PR can not have Yarnc on it. He's been playing absolutely stellar lately
Yeah,but so did Effort,Calm,Zero,FBH,Leta,Sea.Really and Pusan. And I am still not impressed by Yarnc's Z v P.
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On December 11 2008 06:27 abakben wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! What did you smoke while writing this ridiculouse shit? I want the same one
Everyone with different oppionons than yourself is smoking something?
The losses he got from Jaedong and Horang2 isn't going to change much when he is placed in a PR list imo. They tell nothing about his skill level since any player at any time would ahve lost those games. He was not raped or even outplayed.
Darth peter wrote: "I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won"
This is not even close to what i said though... flash made a 14 cc, its a risk, not a stupid mistake.
Jaeden wrote: "u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts."
Yes it's his fault, every loss counts ofcourse, but some losses counts more or less when making the PR. Usually games that shows a players skill level is the best games for PR decisions.
Krigstar wrote: "Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player.
What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about."
There is a difference between knowing the "perfect formula for luck" and seeing that when someone does 14cc vs 9pool its clearly a BO win and probably wont be considered that much of a loss when making the PR.
You say no one should give a shit about in what fashion a player loses a game... i simply do not agree with that statement.
I'm pretty decent at playing this game and I've watched ALOT of games.
Losses can be valued differently but cannot give different results in a specific match. If you don't know this i think that its you who don't really know what the PR is about.
Krigstar wrote; Flash-fans: "BUILDORDER WIN OMG UNLUCKY!"
zerg fans: "flash is so predictable."
How about an objective point of view? Its OBVIOUSLY a BO win, and OBVIOUSLY not predictable since he hasnt played that map before and his other last 10 TvZ was not a 14CC.
Some cases are really obvious man, you shouldnt fight a losing battle. The only thing that might be negative for Flash in the PR from this match is that he might have done the 14CC because of too little preparation for the specific match and therefor he thought he might have to take a risk, but i don't think this is the case.
Finally
Some of you took it way too litterally. Ofcourse the losses are "real", he obsiously didnt get a win out of them.
But think of it. He has only lost 1 straight up skillshoing match in his last 20 games, you cannot deny that.
Even if you are unwilling to admit or agree to this, 17-3 is still a rediculous record.
Maybe this is not enough to claim Bisu's #1 spot, but its certainly enough to top Stork, who has done nothing special after his OSL win. Some people say, his OSL win should still be counted in the next PR. Why should it? This isn't the kespa ranking... he was great that month, he got #1 spot and he deserved it. He's not great this month, he doesn't deserve the #1 spot and he won't get it. Get it?
Also plz no comments about my way of quoting k?:/
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On December 12 2008 01:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 06:27 abakben wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! What did you smoke while writing this ridiculouse shit? I want the same one Everyone with different oppionons than yourself is smoking something? The losses he got from Jaedong and Horang2 isn't going to change much when he is placed in a PR list imo. They tell nothing about his skill level since any player at any time would ahve lost those games. He was not raped or even outplayed. Darth peter wrote: "I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won" This is not even close to what i said though... flash made a 14 cc, its a risk, not a stupid mistake. Jaeden wrote: "u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts." Yes it's his fault, every loss counts ofcourse, but some losses counts more or less when making the PR. Usually games that shows a players skill level is the best games for PR decisions. Krigstar wrote: "Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about." There is a difference between knowing the "perfect formula for luck" and seeing that when someone does 14cc vs 9pool its clearly a BO win and probably wont be considered that much of a loss when making the PR. You say no one should give a shit about in what fashion a player loses a game... i simply do not agree with that statement. I'm pretty decent at playing this game and I've watched ALOT of games. Losses can be valued differently but cannot give different results in a specific match. If you don't know this i think that its you who don't really know what the PR is about. Krigstar wrote; Flash-fans: "BUILDORDER WIN OMG UNLUCKY!" zerg fans: "flash is so predictable." How about an objective point of view? Its OBVIOUSLY a BO win, and OBVIOUSLY not predictable since he hasnt played that map before and his other last 10 TvZ was not a 14CC. Some cases are really obvious man, you shouldnt fight a losing battle. The only thing that might be negative for Flash in the PR from this match is that he might have done the 14CC because of too little preparation for the specific match and therefor he thought he might have to take a risk, but i don't think this is the case. FinallySome of you took it way too litterally. Ofcourse the losses are "real", he obsiously didnt get a win out of them. But think of it. He has only lost 1 straight up skillshoing match in his last 20 games, you cannot deny that. Even if you are unwilling to admit or agree to this, 17-3 is still a rediculous record. Maybe this is not enough to claim Bisu's #1 spot, but its certainly enough to top Stork, who has done nothing special after his OSL win. Some people say, his OSL win should still be counted in the next PR. Why should it? This isn't the kespa ranking... he was great that month, he got #1 spot and he deserved it. He's not great this month, he doesn't deserve the #1 spot and he won't get it. Get it? Also plz no comments about my way of quoting k?:/
Flash will face in PL Jaedong and Stork and most probably Bisu in the GOM, those games will test his current skill level.
About the previous game vs JD. Flash almost every game went for cheese or some greedy builds. 9 pool counters both of them quite safely. Flash took a huge risk, even if JD wouldn't go 9 pool, if he had gone 12 hatch and scouted Flash with his first drone even than he would have been behind imo, cuz JD could have done whatever he wanted: go for 2 hatch muta, ling all-in, duble exp etc... That was a bad decision. And don't forget that Flash did not meet too many top tier vT players Fantasy being the only very good vT (or at least used to be), and Free being a very good player overall. Study, Hyvaa, Hiya, Memory, Pure, Chalrenge, Dongrae etc are barely in the A lineup of the proteams, or not at all. His higher level opponents were GGplay, Jaedong, Zero, Fantasy, Free. Beat GGplay, Free and Fantasy (multiple times) lost to JD and Zero.
Nobody denies how good Flash is, just dont overrate it, saying he's 17-3 in his last 20 games (btw he's 17-5 in his last 22, kinda unfair to start countig when the win streak begins, those 2 losses were at the same time)
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On December 12 2008 01:44 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 01:30 Ideas wrote:
I don't see how the next PR can not have Yarnc on it. He's been playing absolutely stellar lately Yeah,but so did Effort,Calm,Zero,FBH,Leta,Sea.Really and Pusan. And I am still not impressed by Yarnc's Z v P.
Kal might not of have played his best game, but it's undeniable that Yarnc played amazing vs Kal in their ace match.
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Geo.Rion yes it was a risk, but with the correct BO 14cc isnt behind when the zerg 12hatch, its actually ahead. Otherwise there should be no reason for a terran to 14cc in the first place.
When im counting his last 20 games, its because before those he wasnt playing that well.. he lost a couple and won a couple and then suddenly he started winning everything. Something happened, he pulled his shit together, thats how strong he is now and those losses shouldnt count anymore in the PR, but in the PR before where he got a low rank.
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On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
How about an objective point of view? Its OBVIOUSLY a BO win, and OBVIOUSLY not predictable since he hasnt played that map before and his other last 10 TvZ was not a 14CC.
Some cases are really obvious man, you shouldnt fight a losing battle. The only thing that might be negative for Flash in the PR from this match is that he might have done the 14CC because of too little preparation for the specific match and therefor he thought he might have to take a risk, but i don't think this is the case.
I see your point, but my point gets through pretty well here too. You claimed he went 17-3, but counting the "real games" he was 17-1. You explained those two losses pretty well and I somewhat agree that those could be mostly luck. The thing is, you said 17-1 and by that you assume all those 17 wins were purely skill based. So that objectiveness you speak of is just..... lol. There are only two choices here. You honestly believe the 17 wins were pure skill or you forgot/didn't bother to look it up. Either way it proves you are extremely biased towards Flash.
I was going to illustrate an example again, but what you just did proves my point exactly. You can't be objective by just having an open mind about the game of your choice, but to ALL games. Look at the Sea vs Stork games. Stork is like 100-0 vs Sea and still game after game sea-fans come up with explanations to the losses (luck, BO etc) which by all means may sound reasonable for that specific game, but I don't see them analyze Sea's opponents bad luck when Sea wins.
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Hungary11289 Posts
I think the debate boils down to the point that Flash's BO5 stableness hasn't been tested lately. And being able to pull through in a full series and claiming championship is something we have Flash seen do in the past, but which he has not shown lately. Those traits make Stork and Bisu superior to him, at the time being.
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I agree with u man, Flash plays some really good games nowadays, it`s just that he can`t be#1 , at least not this month. Oh and,
On December 12 2008 01:56 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
This is not even close to what i said though... flash made a 14 cc, its a risk, not a stupid mistake.
that was more like a stupid mistake...if u go 14cc for 543963 games in a row, something is really wrong.
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Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually.
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United States10328 Posts
flash is playing very well. he deserves top 3 or 4 PR but maybe not 1st - I think bisu should get 1st.
btw fakesteve... it's already the 12th T_T
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Now come on Steve. I understand your busy and everything,bu than why not ask Oneother or anybody to do the rankings this month,and perhaps permanently. I see that the PR is such a great pain in the ass for you. You don't have to do it,ask somebody to write it,who actually enjoys it. I mean come on. You do this for the 4th month in a row now. You say that you are going to write the PR,say dates which are bullshit,than comes the 12-13-14th of the month and finally somebody does it for you. And next month,it's the same. I await for the PR since the 1st of December and for your comeback,and yet again you tell us bullshit. You are the best PR writer,but this cannot go on. Please do the rankings,or resign.
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On December 11 2008 13:15 Krigstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 11:50 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month. What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed. And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game. Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill? I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check). I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX. Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark. I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill. Pretty much all pro-gamers today in all interviews claim that mechanically wise, all A-class gamers are very close to equal now. So if we assume they are right and you believe mind games aren't a significant part of the game then what is? If you think about it for more than 30 seconds you'll realize this is what Starcraft has evolved to.
I think mindgames are extremely important, in fact, I was one of the ones arguing that Bisu should be #1 simply because he is probably the best mind-gamer in BoXs in the game right now or close to it. However, though they still exist, I don't think that they mean much in single games unless there's some history between the players (and even then it's questionable). Noone disputes that they play a huge part in the ultimate determination of skill, the single-day Bo5, but I simply can't believe that they come into play in single games.
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On December 12 2008 06:17 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 13:15 Krigstar wrote:On December 11 2008 11:50 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.
Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.
and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.
So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!! u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right? Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month. What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed. And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game. Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill? I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check). I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX. Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark. I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill. Pretty much all pro-gamers today in all interviews claim that mechanically wise, all A-class gamers are very close to equal now. So if we assume they are right and you believe mind games aren't a significant part of the game then what is? If you think about it for more than 30 seconds you'll realize this is what Starcraft has evolved to. I think mindgames are extremely important, in fact, I was one of the ones arguing that Bisu should be #1 simply because he is probably the best mind-gamer in BoXs in the game right now or close to it. However, though they still exist, I don't think that they mean much in single games unless there's some history between the players (and even then it's questionable). Noone disputes that they play a huge part in the ultimate determination of skill, the single-day Bo5, but I simply can't believe that they come into play in single games.
Some pro-gamers are owning it up. Its coz they play better, and have better mindgames. Not just one.. most progamers might have close to equal mechanics, but a few of them are just better.
flash in his prime, jaedong in his prime, etc etc had better mechanics than all the others.
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On December 12 2008 06:08 Darth Peter wrote:
Now come on Steve. I understand your busy and everything,bu than why not ask Oneother or anybody to do the rankings this month,and perhaps permanently. I see that the PR is such a great pain in the ass for you. You don't have to do it,ask somebody to write it,who actually enjoys it. I mean come on. You do this for the 4th month in a row now. You say that you are going to write the PR,say dates which are bullshit,than comes the 12-13-14th of the month and finally somebody does it for you. And next month,it's the same. I await for the PR since the 1st of December and for your comeback,and yet again you tell us bullshit. You are the best PR writer,but this cannot go on. Please do the rankings,or resign. This.
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On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually.
I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now.
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On December 12 2008 10:22 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually. I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now. Lets put it real simple like:
Stork= playing badly
Flash= playing good
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On December 12 2008 10:23 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:22 baubo wrote:On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually. I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now. Lets put it real simple like: Stork= playing badly Flash= playing good
Yeah, but he didn't show any mettle in series and a lot of his wins were from easier people. And he didn't win anything, didn't even get close.
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United States10774 Posts
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable
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United States10774 Posts
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On December 12 2008 10:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:23 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:22 baubo wrote:On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually. I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now. Lets put it real simple like: Stork= playing badly Flash= playing good Yeah, but he didn't show any mettle in series and a lot of his wins were from easier people. And he didn't win anything, didn't even get close. All thats been played this month is proleague, with a smattering of gom matches. Flash is on a strong tear and look good in his games, stork isn't. Sorry, but a month and a half after Storks win, and I've yet to see *any* evidence, besides a show match against Bisu, that he is still in form.
Starcraft is far too fucking competitive to give such a ridiculous degree of faith in one man. FORGG dropped like five spots and he looked a lot better than Stork does right now, simply because he wasn't winning everything like he ought to be, as a 1-2 player.
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On December 12 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 12 2008 10:23 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:22 baubo wrote:On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually. I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now. Lets put it real simple like: Stork= playing badly Flash= playing good Yeah, but he didn't show any mettle in series and a lot of his wins were from easier people. And he didn't win anything, didn't even get close. All thats been played this month is proleague, with a smattering of gom matches. Flash is on a strong tear and look good in his games, stork isn't. Sorry, but a month and a half after Storks win, and I've yet to see *any* evidence, besides a show match against Bisu, that he is still in form. Starcraft is far too fucking competitive to give such a ridiculous degree of faith in one man. FORGG dropped like five spots and he looked a lot better than Stork does right now, simply because he wasn't winning everything like he ought to be, as a 1-2 player.
I'm sorry, but if PR doesn't even take into account the most recent starleague season, then we might as well have people like Pusan or Firebathero in the top 3 right now. I'm all for recent results, but Stork's tearing up of the starleagues isn't even 2 months old yet.
I guess haters will remain haters.
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9070 Posts
On December 12 2008 10:23 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:22 baubo wrote:On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
Krigstar, correct, all the 17 wins are probably not pure skill differences. Most of them are though, its just much mroe simple to look at 3 games than all the 17 games.. My point with all the stats and such was so people could easily see that flash is back in business.
It's not like i only watched his stats, i watched all his games. He is very good, he deserves top 2 power rank for next month, imo.
Im not extremely biased towards flash, simply saying that he's basically winning everything now...
I really like jaedong, but i can see his flaws and i wouldnt rank him high atm...
im trying to be objective about flash, he is playing good now, and he wins almost every game, has to count for something.. cant be compared to that many progamers right now.. its him and bisu actually. I can't see how anyone can objectively say Flash should be ranked in front of Stork right now. Lets put it real simple like: Stork= playing badly Flash= playing good
lets not get ahead of ourselves
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I am a rabid Flash fan
But seriously, Flash over stork?
I mean Flash has been owning it up but its WAYYYYYY TOO EARLY to even think about putting flash over stork
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On December 12 2008 08:36 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 06:08 Darth Peter wrote:
Now come on Steve. I understand your busy and everything,bu than why not ask Oneother or anybody to do the rankings this month,and perhaps permanently. I see that the PR is such a great pain in the ass for you. You don't have to do it,ask somebody to write it,who actually enjoys it. I mean come on. You do this for the 4th month in a row now. You say that you are going to write the PR,say dates which are bullshit,than comes the 12-13-14th of the month and finally somebody does it for you. And next month,it's the same. I await for the PR since the 1st of December and for your comeback,and yet again you tell us bullshit. You are the best PR writer,but this cannot go on. Please do the rankings,or resign. This.
/agree. Fakesteve rocks, but this recurring procrastination is bloody bullshit.
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On December 12 2008 04:42 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jaeden he didnt do that, in his last 10 tvz he only 14nexused once and lost.
oh c`mon...u know I wasn`t talking about his last 10 games played, nor TvZ. Until the match vs Jaedong he was goin` like 14cc in every game, and got owned because of it
I mean he could`ve easily hold with a rax after supply.
EDIT: well, enough of this, it was like 2 months ago
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OMG FUCK YES! I'm going to copy this into the PR too. Whoot! 1k post! GO JD, you the kickass!
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I said for about a week its time for a new PR so we dint have to put OSL and MSL prelims in 2 different PR's, now i see other people say the same...
C'mon is embarassing, are heading half a month and we still argur here
And PR is not every time about who plays the best, is playing good with good results, but in Steves view we had always Stork put behind (when he raped Luxury and than blamed for Lux sucks) or Sea lover (the month with no 1 PR)...
Enough with fanboism and subjectivism!
Take into consideration results and games!
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+ Show Spoiler +Firebathero failed to qualify from the OSL offliners, HoeJJa beat him.
Free got 2-0ed by the terran 1988
Jaedong qualified
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On December 12 2008 20:04 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Firebathero failed to qualify from the OSL offliners, HoeJJa beat him.
Free got 2-0ed by the terran 1988
Jaedong qualified
+ Show Spoiler +Jangbi also got eliminated.
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On December 12 2008 20:33 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 20:04 Geo.Rion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Firebathero failed to qualify from the OSL offliners, HoeJJa beat him.
Free got 2-0ed by the terran 1988
Jaedong qualified + Show Spoiler +Jangbi also got eliminated.
new upsets, i will wait till the whole thing finishes, so many surprises
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So, are we waiting for the comments to reach 1000+ and then move on to the next powerrank?
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Oneother,please do this month's power rank too. It looks like we can wait for FS for an eternity,and we really want the PR now.
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+ Show Spoiler +Alot of upsets in OSL, my god sAviOr, JangBi, Tempest, ZerO, EffOrt, firebathero, free, iloveoov, Pusan again, CalmThe good part of the surprise: alot of eSTRO, a nuke for CJ and KTF
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On December 12 2008 22:53 Phradamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Alot of upsets in OSL, my god sAviOr, JangBi, Tempest, ZerO, EffOrt, firebathero, free, iloveoov, Pusan again, Calm
thanks, i was about to write the list.
btw + Show Spoiler +Effort and Pusan being dropped out from both prelims and missing from the GOM too destroys every chanse for them to get into the PR
EDIT: 900th comment, funny if i remember correctly i posted the 800th comment too
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On December 12 2008 22:56 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 22:53 Phradamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Alot of upsets in OSL, my god sAviOr, JangBi, Tempest, ZerO, EffOrt, firebathero, free, iloveoov, Pusan again, Calm thanks, i was about to write the list. btw + Show Spoiler +Effort and Pusan being dropped out from both prelims and missing from the GOM too destroys every chanse for them to get into the PR
+ Show Spoiler +Perhaps it is time for Leta to return in the PR. I see a good chance for Really and Yarnc too. I understand if FbH is still ranked,but It hink one of the above should be ranked now.
EDIT:OMFG,epic 900 posts.
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On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable
how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it?
what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash?
I also think it's pretty simple.
Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/
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On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/
calm down, Flash has to win some bo3/5 and defeat top notch players to get second or first, owning in PL and cleaning up noobs here and there isn't a great feat. As dropping PL games doesnt makes you fall that much. he will have planty of opportunities to prove himself, he will face Stork, Jaedong in PL and probably Bisu in GOM
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United States10774 Posts
On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/
geo.rion said what i wanted to say
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United States10774 Posts
if it's not up by tomorrow, i'll write it.
holy shit almost 1000 comments
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
thats because you pissed off hardcore Bisu/Flash/JD fanboys with your PR lol
But I like your prs better than FS, I seem to disagree with you alot less
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United States10774 Posts
On December 13 2008 04:08 MrHoon wrote:
thats because you pissed off hardcore Bisu/Flash/JD fanboys with your PR lol
But I like your prs better than FS, I seem to disagree with you alot less
haha no actually, i think bisu fanboys were very satisfied with #2 ranking because he hadn't won the MSL back then. jaedong fanboys seemed content with the number four spot compared to how much his play has dropped. i remember some people advocating a higher spot for flash, though. nevertheless hang on tight guys.
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On December 13 2008 02:34 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/ calm down, Flash has to win some bo3/5 and defeat top notch players to get second or first, owning in PL and cleaning up noobs here and there isn't a great feat. As dropping PL games doesnt makes you fall that much. he will have planty of opportunities to prove himself, he will face Stork, Jaedong in PL and probably Bisu in GOM
well imo stork sdoesnt deserve #2 spot based on his play after his OSL victory, and who else than flash could take his place..
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9070 Posts
If I follow your logic best or fantasy... both are raping shit in PL
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Imo ForGG still deserves his spot. His record is still great right now and he is slaying zergs and terrans left and right. The only thing holding him back in the leagues is having to play on maps like Neo Requiem, Medusa, and Destination all of which have pretty significant P>T imbalance.
Kal is actually probably playing more consistently now than he was at the time of last months PR, he's dropping very few games and the only real games he has lost recently have been to Jangbi, with 1 loss each to FBH, Yarnc, and Backho, none of which for scrubs.
Just making the case for some of my favs hehe.
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forgg forgot how to play against protoss, is the thing.
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On December 13 2008 07:17 disciple wrote:
If I follow your logic best or fantasy... both are raping shit in PL
except fantasy lost 0-3 vs flash and best is 6-4 since OSL... i dont get your post.
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On December 13 2008 07:21 Fontong wrote:
Imo ForGG still deserves his spot. lol no
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Quit arguing for Flash to be above #3. I'm a Flash fan, and I think his sits comfortably there. As he dominates in the Winter starleagues, then he'll take his rightful place at #1.
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On December 13 2008 06:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 02:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/ calm down, Flash has to win some bo3/5 and defeat top notch players to get second or first, owning in PL and cleaning up noobs here and there isn't a great feat. As dropping PL games doesnt makes you fall that much. he will have planty of opportunities to prove himself, he will face Stork, Jaedong in PL and probably Bisu in GOM well imo stork sdoesnt deserve #2 spot based on his play after his OSL victory
OSL victory is only 40 days ago. This isn't a "Player of the Month" ranking.
and who else than flash could take his place..
Lol. Surely you're not serious? If you want to conveniently ignore everything before the last PR, FBH has a 6-1 PL record while Flash is only 4-1. And I'm not sure FBH even has the best PL run over the past month.
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I have actually had the impression that Flash's play hasn't been very impressive despite winning.
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On December 13 2008 10:30 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 06:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 13 2008 02:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/ calm down, Flash has to win some bo3/5 and defeat top notch players to get second or first, owning in PL and cleaning up noobs here and there isn't a great feat. As dropping PL games doesnt makes you fall that much. he will have planty of opportunities to prove himself, he will face Stork, Jaedong in PL and probably Bisu in GOM well imo stork sdoesnt deserve #2 spot based on his play after his OSL victory OSL victory is only 40 days ago. This isn't a "Player of the Month" ranking. Lol. Surely you're not serious? If you want to conveniently ignore everything before the last PR, FBH has a 6-1 PL record while Flash is only 4-1. And I'm not sure FBH even has the best PL run over the past month.
firebatheros weakness is tvp though.. flash has none. Imo PR should be sort of like "player of the month", so we simply disagree there.
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On December 13 2008 10:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 10:30 baubo wrote:On December 13 2008 06:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 13 2008 02:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 13 2008 02:06 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 12 2008 10:49 OneOther wrote:
LOL Flash over Stork is ridiculous
#1 Bisu
#2 Stork
#3 Flash(?)
seems reasonable how can you say such things.. winning the OSL was what got stork the last months #1 power rank.. this isn't kespa is it? what has stork done this month that indicates he should be above flash? I also think it's pretty simple. Stork isn't playing very good lately and hasnt been for a month now, Flash is winning everything and is playing like a beast. What is there to argue :/ calm down, Flash has to win some bo3/5 and defeat top notch players to get second or first, owning in PL and cleaning up noobs here and there isn't a great feat. As dropping PL games doesnt makes you fall that much. he will have planty of opportunities to prove himself, he will face Stork, Jaedong in PL and probably Bisu in GOM well imo stork sdoesnt deserve #2 spot based on his play after his OSL victory OSL victory is only 40 days ago. This isn't a "Player of the Month" ranking. and who else than flash could take his place.. Lol. Surely you're not serious? If you want to conveniently ignore everything before the last PR, FBH has a 6-1 PL record while Flash is only 4-1. And I'm not sure FBH even has the best PL run over the past month. firebatheros weakness is tvp though.. flash has none. Imo PR should be sort of like "player of the month", so we simply disagree there.
So is the PR a "Player of the Month" award or "Player who I think is better than the other" award? Please make up your mind. What your perceived FBH's weakness or strength is should have no bearing on the fact that he's raping through the PL against the likes of Jaedong twice, Kal(Hey a top protoss!), and Savior. While Flash's only accomplishment is beating Free in a game he should've lost.
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It should be the player who is playing better at the moment, thus having good results and showing good play. Matches that gave bonus to PR last month should not count as much as recent games. I've made up my mind long ago, i have never said anything else than this.
Yes i think FBH is playing great atm. He should be on PR. But he lost 0-3 to bisu and 0-2 to bogus. His recent record is not close to flash's.
When flash was in his prime he showed results like 25-3 or something like that, havent checked closely.. and now he's on 17-3 so he's getting back in old shape, and flash's old shape is so much better than FBH.
Flash's accomplishment is going 17-3 in the last 20 games. Yes he has not faced any top gamer in a BO5 recently... too bad
If you saw the game vs free u would understand that free was winning that game coz of flash's horrible start. Not because of flash playing poorly... that BO was countered pretty good.
Anyway since you just said that flash's only accomplishment was beating free in a game he should've lost makes me not even want to argue with you... you don't know what u're talking about.
im going to bed.
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What about SkyHigh and Mind for CBNC?
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On December 13 2008 11:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
It should be the player who is playing better at the moment, thus having good results and showing good play. Matches that gave bonus to PR last month should not count as much as recent games. I've made up my mind long ago, i have never said anything else than this.
Players playing better than Stork at the moment: Firebathero, Fantasy, Pusan, Kal, Jangbi, Flash, Tempest, etc. etc. etc. Stork would drop out of the top 10 by this criteria. Hence why PR makers DON'T use this criteria. Because it's a "Power" Ranking.
Yes i think FBH is playing great atm. He should be on PR. But he lost 0-3 to bisu and 0-2 to bogus. His recent record is not close to flash's. When flash was in his prime he showed results like 25-3 or something like that, havent checked closely.. and now he's on 17-3 so he's getting back in old shape, and flash's old shape is so much better than FBH. Flash's accomplishment is going 17-3 in the last 20 games. Yes he has not faced any top gamer in a BO5 recently... too bad If you saw the game vs free u would understand that free was winning that game coz of flash's horrible start. Not because of flash playing poorly... that BO was countered pretty good. Anyway since you just said that flash's only accomplishment was beating free in a game he should've lost makes me not even want to argue with you... you don't know what u're talking about. im going to bed.
That's great. You're the one who told me that PR should be a player of the month thing, and you still bring up "last 20 games" stats? Your logic is blatantly fanboyism because you'd disregard Stork's Ro8 in the MSL and winning in the OSL, yet would use half-year old stuff to talk up Flash?
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yep imo stork should drop several spots.
the 17-3 is what i use to explain to people like you that he's back in shape. Apperently its not enough.. its something that has no faded or slumped ... storks exellent records are slumping.. its not the same thing. and no tempest isnt doing better than stork. You cannot only count result, have to watch the games aswell, dont talk to me like im some kind of idiot, i have understanding of the game and i know what im talking about.
if flash went 17-3 a few months ago and now started slumping i wouldnt count those games like that..but he's keeping the record alive, what if he goes 30-5 or something i mean comon....
what is it that you are saying, you think FBH should be above flash? what would your PR be? Im still not sure if im talking to someone who knows anything :/
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On December 13 2008 12:15 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
yep imo stork should drop several spots.
Actually, by your criteria, he should drop down to like number 20. Again, your criteria is stupid.
the 17-3 is what i use to explain to people like you that he's back in shape. Apperently its not enough.. its something that has no faded or slumped ... storks exellent records are slumping.. its not the same thing. and no tempest isnt doing better than stork. You cannot only count result, have to watch the games aswell, dont talk to me like im some kind of idiot, i have understanding of the game and i know what im talking about.
if flash went 17-3 a few months ago and now started slumping i wouldnt count those games like that..but he's keeping the record alive, what if he goes 30-5 or something i mean comon....
what is it that you are saying, you think FBH should be above flash? what would your PR be? Im still not sure if im talking to someone who knows anything :/
Where did I say FBH is better than Flash? I didn't. I said he had a better month than Flash, because you're so keen on pumping up Flash's supposed super-duper month when many are outperforming him right now.
Oh, and thanks for lecturing me on the greatness of Flash. Are you going to continue with how Savior should now be in the top 5 of PR because of how beastly he was back a couple of years ago? Or that Boxer will make a comeback to the top 10 because he's now back on T1 and is Boxer?
All while basically saying Stork's OSL win just a month ago isn't really worth a lot?
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yup, baubo doesnt know shit
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On December 13 2008 12:15 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
yep imo stork should drop several spots.
the 17-3 is what i use to explain to people like you that he's back in shape. Apperently its not enough.. its something that has no faded or slumped ... storks exellent records are slumping.. its not the same thing. and no tempest isnt doing better than stork. You cannot only count result, have to watch the games aswell, dont talk to me like im some kind of idiot, i have understanding of the game and i know what im talking about.
if flash went 17-3 a few months ago and now started slumping i wouldnt count those games like that..but he's keeping the record alive, what if he goes 30-5 or something i mean comon....
what is it that you are saying, you think FBH should be above flash? what would your PR be? Im still not sure if im talking to someone who knows anything :/
Please ignore that guy and did not reply to his posts. He is an idiot.
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On December 13 2008 07:44 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 07:17 disciple wrote:
If I follow your logic best or fantasy... both are raping shit in PL except fantasy lost 0-3 vs flash and best is 6-4 since OSL... i dont get your post.
Isn't Best 9-4 since the OSL? I'm guessing you mean his last 10 games...
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Do the ranking please Oneother
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Do the ranking please anyone. Although it really isn't any more absurd this month than in previous months as of late.
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On December 13 2008 12:15 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
yep imo stork should drop several spots.
the 17-3 is what i use to explain to people like you that he's back in shape. Apperently its not enough.. its something that has no faded or slumped ... storks exellent records are slumping.. its not the same thing. and no tempest isnt doing better than stork. You cannot only count result, have to watch the games aswell, dont talk to me like im some kind of idiot, i have understanding of the game and i know what im talking about.
if flash went 17-3 a few months ago and now started slumping i wouldnt count those games like that..but he's keeping the record alive, what if he goes 30-5 or something i mean comon....
what is it that you are saying, you think FBH should be above flash? what would your PR be? Im still not sure if im talking to someone who knows anything :/
sorry mate but ur arguments aren`t strong at all. From the last time I posted until now, u`ve posted some things that that made think that u are just a fanboy . no offence
The PR couldn`t possibly be who's had the best month...it`s just insane. Just imagine the PR like that: month after month, 10 new people ( ok not 10...but a LOT ). I`m sayin again: I agree, Flash is strong, he should be #3..or even #2 that doesn`t bother me, but please don`t come with arguments that differ from a day to another
IE: U count last 20 games for flash - only last month for stork
U're sayin` that we should only count last's month performances, but only in flash's case... I hope u agree that pusan,sea.really,fakeyellow, etcetcetc (so many players) shouldn`t be above stork, or else stork whould drop out of the PR from his #1 last month
When I said that flash WAS stupid for making 14cc every game until the game against JD - u simply said that in his last 10 games he didn`t go 14cc...wth, I wasn`t talking about that at all
omg, long post, cheers!
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Now, what's Power Rank about? It's not about a player's stat, it's not about who he beat, or did he won the most recent SL. It's a player's relative strength at the moment. There are many factors that must be taken into account, in my opinion those are the following (to explain better i will use black/red point just as in the kindergarden):
1. Statistics, if a player plays many games and he is 10-3 overall or whatever that's a red point (Flash, Best etc). Playing very few games, and not winning all of them that's a black point (Forgg etc).
2. The skill level of the opponents. Like loosing to Bisu/Stork/etc isn't a black point, beating Memory/ggameo/etcetc isnt a red point. And vice versa (beating Bisu/Stork red point)
3. The quality of the games. Loosing a game with +4 bases (kougghh-koughh, Free) is a black point, beating a cheese that got you unprepared red point. And vice versa. Dominating a good opponent red point. Barely beating a pushover, black point. Yes, wins sometimes are worse than close losses, altough not caracteristic.
4. How reliable the player is. Example Free/Jaedong/etc (i dont mention Flash cuz KTF for some reason is sending Lux as ace) are under pressure cuz they are the best player and usually the ace of their teams (Or eventually the best player of the respective race). If you are the ace of your team a red point (even if you dont win all of them) if you barely are in the PL roster black point (Tempest)
5. How solid he is. Having a weak mu, black point (FBH), having a single good mu, many black points. Not having clearly a bad mu, red point.
6. Participation in the leagues. Here i dont count GOM cuz 2 teams are excluded. Not qualifing for one of the SLs black point (FBH, Jangbi, Free, Best etcetc), not qualifing for one of the leagues and not playing too many PL games, many black points (Forgg, etc). Being in both of the SLs and playing in the PL, red point (Jaedong, Flash, Stork, Bisu). Owning in one of the SLs/PL isnt enough. Pure had the best win/loss ration last year, he barely got a rank in the PR. July won the OSL he was 4th or lower, etc.
7. Mind games. Does the player choke under the pressure (Stork used to do, apparently Flash does, Best)? Black point if he does. Can he structure a bo5? Can he put pressure on the opponent, can he guess what gonna be the build, can he proxy at a place where the scouts will avoid it, can he find the weakness of the opponent, can he abuse it? If he does huge huge red point. Unfortunately there are few bo5s and not too many bo3s, so it might happen we have to count the player's last opportunities, which might be more than a month ago. And unfortunately i think this is the most important factor. That's why Forgg, Stork, Flash, Jaedong got first place on PR, and for failing on keeping up the accomplishments they dropped.
Sorry for the long post, but i think somebody needed to write it. If you have additional ideas let me know.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
The Power Rank has been taken over by Romania.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Seriously what's up with Jaeden, Geo.Rion, and Darth Peter, all being from Romania, having similar post counts, and posting a lot in PR?
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What would be up? We all like watching Starcraft and have similar opinions for some reason. I think you have similar opinion with other people,who are not from your country. Well,it happens we are from the same country. Geo.Rion is my friend and we have similar opinions,I don't know about Jaeden. I usually post in the PR,because during the matches I'm usually at school,and when I can post,it is already outdated,so instead I write it here. Besides,I like this section of TL the best. What is the problem about it?
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Everything! It's a huge conspiracy to take over the entire TeamLiquid! Section by section.
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Ironically I am not even really Romanian,but I live here.
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On December 13 2008 20:06 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 19:43 TheTyranid wrote:Everything! It's a huge conspiracy to take over the entire TeamLiquid! Section by section. lol don`t fall for that...it will just strengthen the fact that Romanians are hard to catch on with the jokes ) oh and..I`m actually a lurker here on the site from 2003 or somethin` like that, and I also registered before the other 2 guys..and don`t know them in real life It`s just that romanians like things like the PR I guess, we like debating on stuff D: edit: don`t belive me, we are actually in the process of takin` over TL 
Everything is going as planned. PM me on what shall be our next step?
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On December 13 2008 19:46 Darth Peter wrote:
Ironically I am not even really Romanian,but I live here.
Are u from Hungary?, no intentions of bein` a xenophob
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On December 13 2008 20:13 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 19:46 Darth Peter wrote:
Ironically I am not even really Romanian,but I live here. Are u from Hungary?, no intentions of bein` a xenophob
No,I am a Hungarian born in Romania.
I think we will reach 1000 comments.
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On December 13 2008 20:17 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 20:13 Jaeden wrote:On December 13 2008 19:46 Darth Peter wrote:
Ironically I am not even really Romanian,but I live here. Are u from Hungary?, no intentions of bein` a xenophob No,I am a Hungarian born in Romania. I think we will reach 1000 comments.
with this kind of discussion, easy
on`topic: this is a pretty hard month to judge
the only thing which we all agree on is the #1 spot
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I hope Flash hits #1 and Jangbi gets #2 so we can try aiming for 2000 post count.
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forgg's description 3 months ago:
"Does this look odd to you? It sure looks odd to me. Odd doesn't even begin to cover the unreal boost in play fOrGG showed in July. Results are all well and good (and with an MSL win, I'm sure no one will disagree that he's got 'em in spades), but the real matter here is that no one played better StarCraft in July than fOrGG. Breaking out of his mould in a big way, fOrGG showed the world he's capable of so much more than making thirty thousand units and throwing them away. His games were dynamic, explosive, and most importantly, they were fucking brilliant StarCraft. Gotta give credit where it's due, there isn't a player in the world that came anywhere near fOrGG in July."
yes it is different because his wins were heavier since they came from MSL, but thwe fact remains that he was the best player that month. player of the month...
I think my arguements does hold. There is a difference between going 10-0 first and then losing game and going 10-0 and then keep winning games when you should make the PR. thats why i used flash's 17-3 record. Dont you agree that there is a difference?
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Why not wait a one day more? Tomorrow Flash will play Stork and also Rock in GOM.
If Flash manage to beat Stork and then Rock in GOM, I believe he should take #2 spot. If he fails in any of this matchs, he shouldn't.
One day isn't a big deal...
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 13 2008 21:24 adelarge wrote:
Why not wait a one day more? Tomorrow Flash will play Stork and also Rock in GOM.
If Flash manage to beat Stork and then Rock in GOM, I believe he should take #2 spot. If he fails in any of this matchs, he shouldn't.
One day isn't a big deal...
wow I just realized this is probably the toughest week for flash
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On December 13 2008 21:02 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
forgg's description 3 months ago:
"Does this look odd to you? It sure looks odd to me. Odd doesn't even begin to cover the unreal boost in play fOrGG showed in July. Results are all well and good (and with an MSL win, I'm sure no one will disagree that he's got 'em in spades), but the real matter here is that no one played better StarCraft in July than fOrGG. Breaking out of his mould in a big way, fOrGG showed the world he's capable of so much more than making thirty thousand units and throwing them away. His games were dynamic, explosive, and most importantly, they were fucking brilliant StarCraft. Gotta give credit where it's due, there isn't a player in the world that came anywhere near fOrGG in July."
yes it is different because his wins were heavier since they came from MSL, but thwe fact remains that he was the best player that month. player of the month...
I think my arguements does hold. There is a difference between going 10-0 first and then losing game and going 10-0 and then keep winning games when you should make the PR. thats why i used flash's 17-3 record. Dont you agree that there is a difference?
well well, how can u compare ForGG's performances in that month with flash in this month ?!?! omg
forgg won the MSL. He destroyed the #2 player 3-0. He had a very hard path, and dismantled all opposition. I mean wtf ?! what did flash do ? beat noobs. I AGREE FLASH PLAYS VERY GOOD but wth ?! u just can`t give this example
also:
On December 13 2008 20:54 MrHoon wrote:
I hope Flash hits #1 and Jangbi gets #2 so we can try aiming for 2000 post count.
LMAO, that would be strange or maybe another #1 spot for Sea...so all the "Romanians" could compain about it
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I mean..how can u compare this:
ForGG beat kal and hero in the groups, than destroyed Sea, beat kal again in a Bo5, beat flash in a bo5, and then 3-0'd JD in the finals. This was ForGG's path in the MSL that he won.
Flash beat fantasy 3 times, and he then free ( we all knew what happened ) , and after that he lost to zero in the PL (that`s not a big deal since it`s PL, everyone loses from time to time...Zero was also hot) and then beat Pure, hyvaa, and Chalrenge, also in PL. Also he "managed" to take a #2 place in a group with Horang2, GGplay, and Dongrae. Excuse me, but that doesn`t sound impressive at all.
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On December 13 2008 04:05 OneOther wrote:
if it's not up by tomorrow, i'll write it.
holy shit almost 1000 comments
Hope you can hold your promise.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Im going to agree with Jaeden here, but here is another thing Jaeden
So far, none of the "S Class" players were showing anything better than what Flash was showing now. Stork has been suffering from the OSL Curse, Jaedong dropped the ball this month (thank god he made it through OSL offline, I would've been so pissed of keke beat JD), Jangbi, well Jangbi is Jangbi, Free lost in a humiliating game and dropped OSL, Kal is one inconsistent motherfucker (like Kingdom) and BeSt lost a PvP and no MSL for him. The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES.
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On December 13 2008 21:56 MrHoon wrote:
Im going to agree with Jaeden here, but here is another thing Jaeden
So far, none of the "S Class" players were showing anything better than what Flash was showing now. Stork has been suffering from the OSL Curse, Jaedong dropped the ball this month (thank god he made it through OSL offline, I would've been so pissed of keke beat JD), Jangbi, well Jangbi is Jangbi, Free lost in a humiliating game and dropped OSL, Kal is one inconsistent motherfucker (like Kingdom) and BeSt lost a PvP and no MSL for him. The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES.
Yes, I am aware of that, I even wrote :
On December 13 2008 17:22 Jaeden wrote:
I`m sayin again: I agree, Flash is strong, he should be #3..or even #2 that doesn`t bother me
Bisu won the OSL in the last month so, a bo5 against free and against jangbi gotta count. Also he beat fakeyellow, calm, Reach(yeah, I know)
,and:
The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES.
yes, I agree, at first, that was my argument that stork should be above bisu, coz even though stork lost some games, bisu didn`t play at all, but still, lookin` again at what I wrote above, I think #1 bisu is the perfect choice
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 13 2008 22:06 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 21:56 MrHoon wrote:
Im going to agree with Jaeden here, but here is another thing Jaeden
So far, none of the "S Class" players were showing anything better than what Flash was showing now. Stork has been suffering from the OSL Curse, Jaedong dropped the ball this month (thank god he made it through OSL offline, I would've been so pissed of keke beat JD), Jangbi, well Jangbi is Jangbi, Free lost in a humiliating game and dropped OSL, Kal is one inconsistent motherfucker (like Kingdom) and BeSt lost a PvP and no MSL for him. The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES. Yes, I am aware of that, I even wrote : Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 17:22 Jaeden wrote:
I`m sayin again: I agree, Flash is strong, he should be #3..or even #2 that doesn`t bother me Bisu won the OSL in the last month so, a bo5 against free and against jangbi gotta count. Also he beat fakeyellow, calm, Reach(yeah, I know) ,and: Show nested quote +The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES. yes, I agree, at first, that was my argument that stork should be above bisu, coz even though stork lost some games, bisu didn`t play at all, but still, lookin` again at what I wrote above, I think #1 bisu is the perfect choice
Yeah I have nothing against flash being #3 or 4, or bisu being #1
trying to keep the conversation going, we just need to argue pointlessly 50 times more lol.
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On December 13 2008 22:09 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 22:06 Jaeden wrote:On December 13 2008 21:56 MrHoon wrote:
Im going to agree with Jaeden here, but here is another thing Jaeden
So far, none of the "S Class" players were showing anything better than what Flash was showing now. Stork has been suffering from the OSL Curse, Jaedong dropped the ball this month (thank god he made it through OSL offline, I would've been so pissed of keke beat JD), Jangbi, well Jangbi is Jangbi, Free lost in a humiliating game and dropped OSL, Kal is one inconsistent motherfucker (like Kingdom) and BeSt lost a PvP and no MSL for him. The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES. Yes, I am aware of that, I even wrote : On December 13 2008 17:22 Jaeden wrote:
I`m sayin again: I agree, Flash is strong, he should be #3..or even #2 that doesn`t bother me Bisu won the OSL in the last month so, a bo5 against free and against jangbi gotta count. Also he beat fakeyellow, calm, Reach(yeah, I know) ,and: The only reason why I didn't even mention Bisu is because he literally played NO GAMES. yes, I agree, at first, that was my argument that stork should be above bisu, coz even though stork lost some games, bisu didn`t play at all, but still, lookin` again at what I wrote above, I think #1 bisu is the perfect choice Yeah I have nothing against flash being #3 or 4, or bisu being #1 trying to keep the conversation going, we just need to argue pointlessly 50 times more lol.
LOL , quick everyone go ahead and post all ur desires, or ur predictions, anything, untill OneOther completes the PR
sorry but I have some work to do, can`t cooperate
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my point was that its basically the player of the month rank...
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On December 13 2008 22:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
my point was that its basically the player of the month rank...
did you read my post on the previous page? I think it covers mostly what's PR about, player of the month but sometimes you have to make exceptions and take into account games and series which were played earlier. i explained why, read if you care.
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On December 13 2008 22:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
my point was that its basically the player of the month rank...
oh right, I understood that Flash deserves a high spot, no doubt
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On December 14 2008 00:58 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 22:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
my point was that its basically the player of the month rank... did you read my post on the previous page? I think it covers mostly what's PR about, player of the month but sometimes you have to make exceptions and take into account games and series which were played earlier. i explained why, read if you care.
didnt understand the thing about red and black dots, was kinda confusing but i know basically what PR is about.. i just dont think Stork is playing that well lately.. so his PR hould fall.. flash is playing good lately so his PR should rise.
the ultimate PR should be who is the strongest player RIGHT NOW. but its hard to judge that...
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On December 14 2008 01:07 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2008 00:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 13 2008 22:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
my point was that its basically the player of the month rank... did you read my post on the previous page? I think it covers mostly what's PR about, player of the month but sometimes you have to make exceptions and take into account games and series which were played earlier. i explained why, read if you care. didnt understand the thing about red and black dots, was kinda confusing but i know basically what PR is about.. i just dont think Stork is playing that well lately.. so his PR hould fall.. flash is playing good lately so his PR should rise. the ultimate PR should be who is the strongest player RIGHT NOW. but its hard to judge that...
i was using black/red points to make it more easy to understand. Epic fail. T.T
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Man this week sucks for Flash. Stork, Gom, Jaedong. I guess here is where we see if Flash can only beat up on mediocre players or if he's back in full-blown ultimate weapon mode.
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