Hello TL and welcome to my 1000th post. I know for this number there isn't a real need to do anything, but I was still interested in contributing. Thus, I have examined many VODs to determine something that cannot be found in the TLPD: the specific starting build orders used in the match. I started with ZvZ because I hear the most that this match up is a huge rock-paper-scissors of build orders and wanted to see for myself if this was actually true. I hope you enjoy.
ZvZ on Andromeda:
Specific Games:
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvZ(all games with VODs):
hyvaa(9 pool-->1 hatch muta) > Kwanro(overpool)
Calm(12 hatch) > hyvaa(12 pool)
EffOrt(12 pool) > s2(12 hatch)
OversKy(12 pool) > s2(9 pool)
Shark(overpool) > OversKy(12 pool)
Jaedong(12 hatch in base) > Luxury(3 hatch before pool, 1 in base)[WCG not counting this game, weird builds too...]
Thezerg(12 hatch) > Rumble(12 pool)
by.great(12 hatch) > 815(12 pool)
OversKy(12 pool) > ZerO(9 pool):
Hyuk(probably overpool) > Luxury(12 hatch)
Luxury(12 pool) > hyvaa(12 pool)
Kwanro(9 pool) > ZerO(12 pool)
Rumble(12 hatch) > Yarnc(12 pool)
ZerO(12 pool) > MinGu(overpool)
Jaedong(12 hatch, canceled) > OversKy(9 pool)
ZerO(9 pool) > HoeJJa[S.G](12 pool)
Luxury(12 pool) > OversKy(12 pool)
GGPlay(9 pool) > MinGu(12 hatch)
Rumble(12 hatch, canceled) > HyuN(9 pool)
Jaedong(9 pool) > Haran(12 hatch)
hyvaa(9 pool-->1 hatch muta) > Kwanro(overpool)
Calm(12 hatch) > hyvaa(12 pool)
EffOrt(12 pool) > s2(12 hatch)
OversKy(12 pool) > s2(9 pool)
Shark(overpool) > OversKy(12 pool)
Jaedong(12 hatch in base) > Luxury(3 hatch before pool, 1 in base)[WCG not counting this game, weird builds too...]
Thezerg(12 hatch) > Rumble(12 pool)
by.great(12 hatch) > 815(12 pool)
OversKy(12 pool) > ZerO(9 pool):
Hyuk(probably overpool) > Luxury(12 hatch)
Luxury(12 pool) > hyvaa(12 pool)
Kwanro(9 pool) > ZerO(12 pool)
Rumble(12 hatch) > Yarnc(12 pool)
ZerO(12 pool) > MinGu(overpool)
Jaedong(12 hatch, canceled) > OversKy(9 pool)
ZerO(9 pool) > HoeJJa[S.G](12 pool)
Luxury(12 pool) > OversKy(12 pool)
GGPlay(9 pool) > MinGu(12 hatch)
Rumble(12 hatch, canceled) > HyuN(9 pool)
Jaedong(9 pool) > Haran(12 hatch)
Breakdown:
[9 pool] 3-2 [12 Hatch]
[9 pool] 3-3 [12 pool]
[12 hatch] 4-1 [12 pool] <---Interesting Stat.
As overpool is a variant of 9 pool and I'm counting it as such in the above stats, but here is the breakdown of specifically overpool builds. If you have a major disagreement with this then say something I guess. There would be too much breakdown if I split it among overpool as well, especially for Andromeda.
[overpool] 0-1 [9 pool]
[overpool] 1-1 [12 pool]
[overpool] 1-0 [12 hatch]
mirror 12 pool: 2 games
Wins-Losses:
[9 pool]: 6-5
[12 pool]: 4-7
[12 hatch]: 6-4
I'm not going to draw any solid conclusions from these numbers just yet. It looks like 12 pool is a poor choice of build though, it loses to 12 hatch and goes 50-50 versus 9 pools. Of course the success rate of each build is quite map related.
ZvZs on Raid Assault 2:
Specific Games:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jaedong(overpool) > JiHyun(12 pool)
Modesty[GsP](overpool) > by.great(12 pool)
Juni(overpool) > MuMyung(12 pool)
FireFist(overpool) > Hyuk(overpool)
Jaedong(overpool) > Shark(overpool)
Luxury(9 pool) > Calm(overpool)
Yarnc(overpool) > sAviOr(overpool)
FireFist(12 pool) > MuMyung(12 pool)
ZerO(overpool) > Thezerg(overpool)
Nal_keke(overpool) > oDin(overpool)
Calm(9 pool) > Rumble(9 pool)
Luxury(overpool) > HyuN(12 pool)
Jaedong(12 pool) > FireFist(overpool)
RorO(overpool) > Hyuk(overpool)
hyvaa(overpool) > GoRush(12 pool)
Luxury(overpool) > Nal_keke(12 pool)
sAviOr(12 pool) > MuMyung(overpool)
Nal_keke(12 pool) > Child(overpool)
by.great(12 pool) > Hyuk(overpool)
Modesty[GsP](overpool) > by.great(12 pool)
Juni(overpool) > MuMyung(12 pool)
FireFist(overpool) > Hyuk(overpool)
Jaedong(overpool) > Shark(overpool)
Luxury(9 pool) > Calm(overpool)
Yarnc(overpool) > sAviOr(overpool)
FireFist(12 pool) > MuMyung(12 pool)
ZerO(overpool) > Thezerg(overpool)
Nal_keke(overpool) > oDin(overpool)
Calm(9 pool) > Rumble(9 pool)
Luxury(overpool) > HyuN(12 pool)
Jaedong(12 pool) > FireFist(overpool)
RorO(overpool) > Hyuk(overpool)
hyvaa(overpool) > GoRush(12 pool)
Luxury(overpool) > Nal_keke(12 pool)
sAviOr(12 pool) > MuMyung(overpool)
Nal_keke(12 pool) > Child(overpool)
by.great(12 pool) > Hyuk(overpool)
Note: All "12 pools" on Raid Assault are actually more like 10 gas 10 pool, or sometimes 11 gas 11 pool, it's really hard to tell exactly from just VODs. The distinguishing factor is that more drones were made between making the second overlord and putting down the pool/gas.
[overpool] 3-4 [12 pool]
[9 pool] 1-0 [overpool]
Unfortunately for me, overpool is the most common build on RA2 by far. I may go back and analyse the success rate of hatch at natural versus hatch in base for Raid Assault 2, since that seems to be a big factor. iirc, many people who hatch at nat lose.
Jaedong(recent ZvZs with VOD):
(Also featuring game notes)
>>WIN vs Kwanro(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using 12 pool
In typical Jaedong fashion Jaedong overpowers his opponent with zerglings in a ramp break, then massacres Kwanro's mutas with scourge when they pop. With few drones, Kwanro can't hold up.
>>WIN vs JiHyun(12 pool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Hatch in base. Great zergling runby allows JD to kill JiHyun's spire, not much more explanation required.
>>WIN vs Shark(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Even after losing a couple drones to a ramp break in the beginning, Jaedong maintains higher zergling numbers afterwards forcing Shark to use him mutas defensively.
>>LOSS vs RorO on Neo Requiem using
Went one hatch only while RorO was on 2, RorO was able to have higher muta numbers and sniped a drone with 2 lings which really hurt.
>>WIN vs FireFist(overpool) on Neo Requiem using 12 pool.
Sneaks 2 zerglings into FireFist's base which deal far more damage that they should have, then gets in more zerglings while FireFist is occupied. Scourge above FF's hatches seal the deal.
>>WIN vs Child(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Jaedong hatches at nat, apparently he is one of the special few who can do this on RA2 and win. JD destroys Child in a muta battle for the win.
>>LOSS vs YellOw[ArnC](12 pool) on Neo Requiem using 9 pool.
Yarnc hides a 2nd hatch in the corner of his base, while Jaedong misplaces an offensive sunken so that it dies instantly, losing the drone and the minerals. Making matters worse, a runby by Yarnc kills 2 drones badly hurting Jaedong's 1 hatch build. Successive runbys kill 3 more drones, but Jaedong claws his way back with typical excellent play. The clincher is when JD is too greedy in trying to kill Yarnc's spire, allowing his mutas to take multiple free hits.
>>WIN vs oDin(12 hatch) on Katrina SE using 12 pool.
Great hidden zerglings by Jaedong, but fails to snipe drones. The players actually trade spires, but Jaedong's zerglings deal more damage in addition kill almost all his opponents drones plus the natural hatch.
In typical Jaedong fashion Jaedong overpowers his opponent with zerglings in a ramp break, then massacres Kwanro's mutas with scourge when they pop. With few drones, Kwanro can't hold up.
>>WIN vs JiHyun(12 pool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Hatch in base. Great zergling runby allows JD to kill JiHyun's spire, not much more explanation required.
>>WIN vs Shark(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Even after losing a couple drones to a ramp break in the beginning, Jaedong maintains higher zergling numbers afterwards forcing Shark to use him mutas defensively.
>>LOSS vs RorO on Neo Requiem using
Went one hatch only while RorO was on 2, RorO was able to have higher muta numbers and sniped a drone with 2 lings which really hurt.
>>WIN vs FireFist(overpool) on Neo Requiem using 12 pool.
Sneaks 2 zerglings into FireFist's base which deal far more damage that they should have, then gets in more zerglings while FireFist is occupied. Scourge above FF's hatches seal the deal.
>>WIN vs Child(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Jaedong hatches at nat, apparently he is one of the special few who can do this on RA2 and win. JD destroys Child in a muta battle for the win.
>>LOSS vs YellOw[ArnC](12 pool) on Neo Requiem using 9 pool.
Yarnc hides a 2nd hatch in the corner of his base, while Jaedong misplaces an offensive sunken so that it dies instantly, losing the drone and the minerals. Making matters worse, a runby by Yarnc kills 2 drones badly hurting Jaedong's 1 hatch build. Successive runbys kill 3 more drones, but Jaedong claws his way back with typical excellent play. The clincher is when JD is too greedy in trying to kill Yarnc's spire, allowing his mutas to take multiple free hits.
>>WIN vs oDin(12 hatch) on Katrina SE using 12 pool.
Great hidden zerglings by Jaedong, but fails to snipe drones. The players actually trade spires, but Jaedong's zerglings deal more damage in addition kill almost all his opponents drones plus the natural hatch.
I find it interesting that Jaedong lost both of his ZvZs on Neo Req, while maintaining a perfect record on RA2, where he also played more games.
Medusa
(with game notes)
Specific Games:
>>sAviOr(9 pool) > Saint(9 pool)
The timings in this game are almost exactly the same, there is little deviation at any point and at least one battle comes out inconclusive. The advantage Savior took was sniping two overlords, while Saint didn't catch any. Savior also produces slightly more scourge and uses them effectively.
>>by.great(9 pool) > EffOrt(12 pool)
By.great puts his hatch at the nat and manages to defend without losing drones. Effort also takes a quick expansion but has faster mutalisk timing. by.great manages to break through Effort's zergling wall, killing at least 1 drone. by.great keeps dominance on the ground after this attack, combining a zergling attack on the main with his mutalisks for the win.
>>Saint(9 pool) > type-b(12 pool)
type-b hatches at nat, while Saint opts for a 1 hatchery build. type-b's build really made no sense, while he got a lair he didn't get a spire or even a hydra den. He instead gets spores and masses zerglings. When he attacks with his mass zergling army he gets drone kills but fails to do any major damage and gets countered by lings. With spores only he loses.
>>YellOw[ArnC](overpool) > type-b(12 pool)
Yarnc lets type-b attack his main, while he uses his own army to attack type-b's base. Yarnc already has a sunken up though and manages to defend without losing too many drones. type-b has no sunken and takes heavy economy damage. With both spires up, type-b is forced to produce scourge only and they don't arrive in time to camp over the hatches. Yarnc rapes his droneline with mutas for the win.
>>Saint(9 pool) > 815(12 pool)
For once a player that doesn't expo right after 12 pooling, 815 goes for a fast lair instead and gets a timing only slightly slower than Saint's. Saint adds hatch at nat right after spire. 815 goes for a zergling attack before his mutas pop but kills only one drone. Possibly this was to stall Saint's mutas from attacking him before his own mutas were ready. Even after all his mutas die, 815 still kills many mutas with scourge, but can't make up for his opponent's growing muta numbers from his damaged economy. Long game, but having to defend 2 bases hurt 815 more than the advantage in economy helped him.
>>EffOrt(12 pool) > ZerO(12 pool)
Effort hatches at nat, while Zero places his in base. Good attack by Zero in the middle, he attacks with superior zergling numbers forcing Effort to defend with his mutas and at the same time harasses drones with his own mutas. Although Zero was able to deal a good amount of damage with zerglings, his forces in the air were hurt by never taking a second gas.
>>Saint(9 pool) > July(9 pool)
Despite getting drone kills with his zerglings, July ends up behind in mutalisk numbers and is forced to concede.
The timings in this game are almost exactly the same, there is little deviation at any point and at least one battle comes out inconclusive. The advantage Savior took was sniping two overlords, while Saint didn't catch any. Savior also produces slightly more scourge and uses them effectively.
>>by.great(9 pool) > EffOrt(12 pool)
By.great puts his hatch at the nat and manages to defend without losing drones. Effort also takes a quick expansion but has faster mutalisk timing. by.great manages to break through Effort's zergling wall, killing at least 1 drone. by.great keeps dominance on the ground after this attack, combining a zergling attack on the main with his mutalisks for the win.
>>Saint(9 pool) > type-b(12 pool)
type-b hatches at nat, while Saint opts for a 1 hatchery build. type-b's build really made no sense, while he got a lair he didn't get a spire or even a hydra den. He instead gets spores and masses zerglings. When he attacks with his mass zergling army he gets drone kills but fails to do any major damage and gets countered by lings. With spores only he loses.
>>YellOw[ArnC](overpool) > type-b(12 pool)
Yarnc lets type-b attack his main, while he uses his own army to attack type-b's base. Yarnc already has a sunken up though and manages to defend without losing too many drones. type-b has no sunken and takes heavy economy damage. With both spires up, type-b is forced to produce scourge only and they don't arrive in time to camp over the hatches. Yarnc rapes his droneline with mutas for the win.
>>Saint(9 pool) > 815(12 pool)
For once a player that doesn't expo right after 12 pooling, 815 goes for a fast lair instead and gets a timing only slightly slower than Saint's. Saint adds hatch at nat right after spire. 815 goes for a zergling attack before his mutas pop but kills only one drone. Possibly this was to stall Saint's mutas from attacking him before his own mutas were ready. Even after all his mutas die, 815 still kills many mutas with scourge, but can't make up for his opponent's growing muta numbers from his damaged economy. Long game, but having to defend 2 bases hurt 815 more than the advantage in economy helped him.
>>EffOrt(12 pool) > ZerO(12 pool)
Effort hatches at nat, while Zero places his in base. Good attack by Zero in the middle, he attacks with superior zergling numbers forcing Effort to defend with his mutas and at the same time harasses drones with his own mutas. Although Zero was able to deal a good amount of damage with zerglings, his forces in the air were hurt by never taking a second gas.
>>Saint(9 pool) > July(9 pool)
Despite getting drone kills with his zerglings, July ends up behind in mutalisk numbers and is forced to concede.
Breakdown:
[9 pool] 4-0 [12 pool] <----Interesting Stat
Mirror 12 pools: 1
Mirror 9 pools: 2
[9 pool] 4-0 [12 pool] <----Interesting Stat
Mirror 12 pools: 1
Mirror 9 pools: 2
My conclusion and Notes on modern ZvZ: After watching many, many ZvZ VODs I have come to this conclusion. Although mutalisk numbers are the deciding factor, victory in ZvZ often goes to the player who can maintain higher zergling numbers in the field. This forces the opponent to use his mutas to defend rather than to harass buildings/workers. In addition, the more offensive player can sacrafice zerglings at the front of his opponents base to force him to defend there while he harasses with mutalisks in the main. In games with little to no zergling use after mutas pop, which are many, the winner will be the one who controls the skies.
I have often heard about how 'fickle' ZvZ is, or how good players can often be taken down by nobodies. I would like to say right here that ZvZ is no longer a dice roll, even if it was at some point. The better player wins just as often as in any other matchup and can even overcome the supposed 'suicide' of 12 hatching versus a 9 pool. Sometimes the better makes a stupid decision and loses, see Jaedong versus Roro. He really didn't need to try a ramp bust, but did and got punished for it. Even Luxury whose ZvZ is a notch below JD's only occasionaly drops games to scrubs.
I hope someone finds this useful or interesting so that I didn't completely waste my time. I will probably come back and extend this later, perhaps adding other matchups.
(If you see any glaring errors or minor spelling mistakes, feel free to PM or something so I can fix)
Definitions:
9 pool: make spawning pool at 9 supply, no ovie first
overpool: make overlord then pool, still at 9 supply
12 pool(see note for raid assault): after 2nd ovie make 3 drones for 12 supply then pool
12 hatch: after 2nd ovie make 3 drones for 12 supply then hatchery