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Map - BO Analysis

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Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 04:13:03
December 01 2008 08:23 GMT
#1
Update: Added ZvZs on Medusa and edited some spoilers to make them easier to read.

Hello TL and welcome to my 1000th post. I know for this number there isn't a real need to do anything, but I was still interested in contributing. Thus, I have examined many VODs to determine something that cannot be found in the TLPD: the specific starting build orders used in the match. I started with ZvZ because I hear the most that this match up is a huge rock-paper-scissors of build orders and wanted to see for myself if this was actually true. I hope you enjoy.

[image loading]
ZvZ on Andromeda:

Specific Games:
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvZ(all games with VODs):
(Z)hyvaa(9 pool-->1 hatch muta) > (Z)Kwanro(overpool)
(Z)Calm(12 hatch) > (Z)hyvaa(12 pool)
(Z)EffOrt(12 pool) > (Z)s2(12 hatch)
(Z)OversKy(12 pool) > (Z)s2(9 pool)
(Z)Shark(overpool) > (Z)OversKy(12 pool)
(Z)Jaedong(12 hatch in base) > (Z)Luxury(3 hatch before pool, 1 in base)[WCG not counting this game, weird builds too...]
(Z)Thezerg(12 hatch) > (Z)Rumble(12 pool)
(Z)by.great(12 hatch) > (Z)815(12 pool)
(Z)OversKy(12 pool) > (Z)ZerO(9 pool):
(Z)Hyuk(probably overpool) > (Z)Luxury(12 hatch)
(Z)Luxury(12 pool) > (Z)hyvaa(12 pool)
(Z)Kwanro(9 pool) > (Z)ZerO(12 pool)
(Z)Rumble(12 hatch) > Yarnc(12 pool)
(Z)ZerO(12 pool) > (Z)MinGu(overpool)
(Z)Jaedong(12 hatch, canceled) > (Z)OversKy(9 pool)
(Z)ZerO(9 pool) > (Z)HoeJJa[S.G](12 pool)
(Z)Luxury(12 pool) > (Z)OversKy(12 pool)
(Z)GGPlay(9 pool) > (Z)MinGu(12 hatch)
(Z)Rumble(12 hatch, canceled) > (Z)HyuN(9 pool)
(Z)Jaedong(9 pool) > (Z)Haran(12 hatch)


Breakdown:
[9 pool] 3-2 [12 Hatch]
[9 pool] 3-3 [12 pool]
[12 hatch] 4-1 [12 pool] <---Interesting Stat.


As overpool is a variant of 9 pool and I'm counting it as such in the above stats, but here is the breakdown of specifically overpool builds. If you have a major disagreement with this then say something I guess. There would be too much breakdown if I split it among overpool as well, especially for Andromeda.

[overpool] 0-1 [9 pool]
[overpool] 1-1 [12 pool]
[overpool] 1-0 [12 hatch]
mirror 12 pool: 2 games

Wins-Losses:
[9 pool]: 6-5
[12 pool]: 4-7
[12 hatch]: 6-4


I'm not going to draw any solid conclusions from these numbers just yet. It looks like 12 pool is a poor choice of build though, it loses to 12 hatch and goes 50-50 versus 9 pools. Of course the success rate of each build is quite map related.

[image loading]

ZvZs on Raid Assault 2:

Specific Games:
+ Show Spoiler +
(Z)Jaedong(overpool) > (Z)JiHyun(12 pool)
(Z)Modesty[GsP](overpool) > (Z)by.great(12 pool)
(Z)Juni(overpool) > (Z)MuMyung(12 pool)
(Z)FireFist(overpool) > (Z)Hyuk(overpool)
(Z)Jaedong(overpool) > (Z)Shark(overpool)
(Z)Luxury(9 pool) > (Z)Calm(overpool)
Yarnc(overpool) > (Z)sAviOr(overpool)
(Z)FireFist(12 pool) > (Z)MuMyung(12 pool)
(Z)ZerO(overpool) > (Z)Thezerg(overpool)
(Z)Nal_keke(overpool) > (Z)oDin(overpool)
(Z)Calm(9 pool) > (Z)Rumble(9 pool)
(Z)Luxury(overpool) > (Z)HyuN(12 pool)
(Z)Jaedong(12 pool) > (Z)FireFist(overpool)
(Z)RorO(overpool) > (Z)Hyuk(overpool)
(Z)hyvaa(overpool) > (Z)GoRush(12 pool)
(Z)Luxury(overpool) > (Z)Nal_keke(12 pool)
(Z)sAviOr(12 pool) > (Z)MuMyung(overpool)
(Z)Nal_keke(12 pool) > (Z)Child(overpool)
(Z)by.great(12 pool) > (Z)Hyuk(overpool)


Note: All "12 pools" on Raid Assault are actually more like 10 gas 10 pool, or sometimes 11 gas 11 pool, it's really hard to tell exactly from just VODs. The distinguishing factor is that more drones were made between making the second overlord and putting down the pool/gas.

[overpool] 3-4 [12 pool]
[9 pool] 1-0 [overpool]


Unfortunately for me, overpool is the most common build on RA2 by far. I may go back and analyse the success rate of hatch at natural versus hatch in base for Raid Assault 2, since that seems to be a big factor. iirc, many people who hatch at nat lose.

[image loading]
Jaedong(recent ZvZs with VOD):
(Also featuring game notes)
                                                      + Show Spoiler +
>>WIN vs (Z)Kwanro(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using 12 pool
In typical Jaedong fashion Jaedong overpowers his opponent with zerglings in a ramp break, then massacres Kwanro's mutas with scourge when they pop. With few drones, Kwanro can't hold up.
>>WIN vs (Z)JiHyun(12 pool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Hatch in base. Great zergling runby allows JD to kill JiHyun's spire, not much more explanation required.
>>WIN vs (Z)Shark(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Even after losing a couple drones to a ramp break in the beginning, Jaedong maintains higher zergling numbers afterwards forcing Shark to use him mutas defensively.
>>LOSS vs (Z)RorO on Neo Requiem using
Went one hatch only while RorO was on 2, RorO was able to have higher muta numbers and sniped a drone with 2 lings which really hurt.
>>WIN vs (Z)FireFist(overpool) on Neo Requiem using 12 pool.
Sneaks 2 zerglings into FireFist's base which deal far more damage that they should have, then gets in more zerglings while FireFist is occupied. Scourge above FF's hatches seal the deal.
>>WIN vs (Z)Child(overpool) on RaiD Assault 2 using overpool.
Jaedong hatches at nat, apparently he is one of the special few who can do this on RA2 and win. JD destroys Child in a muta battle for the win.
>>LOSS vs (Z)YellOw[ArnC](12 pool) on Neo Requiem using 9 pool.
Yarnc hides a 2nd hatch in the corner of his base, while Jaedong misplaces an offensive sunken so that it dies instantly, losing the drone and the minerals. Making matters worse, a runby by Yarnc kills 2 drones badly hurting Jaedong's 1 hatch build. Successive runbys kill 3 more drones, but Jaedong claws his way back with typical excellent play. The clincher is when JD is too greedy in trying to kill Yarnc's spire, allowing his mutas to take multiple free hits.
>>WIN vs (Z)oDin(12 hatch) on Katrina SE using 12 pool.
Great hidden zerglings by Jaedong, but fails to snipe drones. The players actually trade spires, but Jaedong's zerglings deal more damage in addition kill almost all his opponents drones plus the natural hatch.

I find it interesting that Jaedong lost both of his ZvZs on Neo Req, while maintaining a perfect record on RA2, where he also played more games.

[image loading]
Medusa
(with game notes)

Specific Games:
                                                      + Show Spoiler +
>>(Z)sAviOr(9 pool) > (Z)Saint(9 pool)
The timings in this game are almost exactly the same, there is little deviation at any point and at least one battle comes out inconclusive. The advantage Savior took was sniping two overlords, while Saint didn't catch any. Savior also produces slightly more scourge and uses them effectively.
>>(Z)by.great(9 pool) > (Z)EffOrt(12 pool)
By.great puts his hatch at the nat and manages to defend without losing drones. Effort also takes a quick expansion but has faster mutalisk timing. by.great manages to break through Effort's zergling wall, killing at least 1 drone. by.great keeps dominance on the ground after this attack, combining a zergling attack on the main with his mutalisks for the win.
>>(Z)Saint(9 pool) > (Z)type-b(12 pool)
type-b hatches at nat, while Saint opts for a 1 hatchery build. type-b's build really made no sense, while he got a lair he didn't get a spire or even a hydra den. He instead gets spores and masses zerglings. When he attacks with his mass zergling army he gets drone kills but fails to do any major damage and gets countered by lings. With spores only he loses.
>>(Z)YellOw[ArnC](overpool) > (Z)type-b(12 pool)
Yarnc lets type-b attack his main, while he uses his own army to attack type-b's base. Yarnc already has a sunken up though and manages to defend without losing too many drones. type-b has no sunken and takes heavy economy damage. With both spires up, type-b is forced to produce scourge only and they don't arrive in time to camp over the hatches. Yarnc rapes his droneline with mutas for the win.
>>(Z)Saint(9 pool) > (Z)815(12 pool)
For once a player that doesn't expo right after 12 pooling, 815 goes for a fast lair instead and gets a timing only slightly slower than Saint's. Saint adds hatch at nat right after spire. 815 goes for a zergling attack before his mutas pop but kills only one drone. Possibly this was to stall Saint's mutas from attacking him before his own mutas were ready. Even after all his mutas die, 815 still kills many mutas with scourge, but can't make up for his opponent's growing muta numbers from his damaged economy. Long game, but having to defend 2 bases hurt 815 more than the advantage in economy helped him.
>>(Z)EffOrt(12 pool) > (Z)ZerO(12 pool)
Effort hatches at nat, while Zero places his in base. Good attack by Zero in the middle, he attacks with superior zergling numbers forcing Effort to defend with his mutas and at the same time harasses drones with his own mutas. Although Zero was able to deal a good amount of damage with zerglings, his forces in the air were hurt by never taking a second gas.
>>(Z)Saint(9 pool) > (Z)July(9 pool)
Despite getting drone kills with his zerglings, July ends up behind in mutalisk numbers and is forced to concede.

Breakdown:
[9 pool] 4-0 [12 pool] <----Interesting Stat
Mirror 12 pools: 1
Mirror 9 pools: 2

My conclusion and Notes on modern ZvZ: After watching many, many ZvZ VODs I have come to this conclusion. Although mutalisk numbers are the deciding factor, victory in ZvZ often goes to the player who can maintain higher zergling numbers in the field. This forces the opponent to use his mutas to defend rather than to harass buildings/workers. In addition, the more offensive player can sacrafice zerglings at the front of his opponents base to force him to defend there while he harasses with mutalisks in the main. In games with little to no zergling use after mutas pop, which are many, the winner will be the one who controls the skies.

I have often heard about how 'fickle' ZvZ is, or how good players can often be taken down by nobodies. I would like to say right here that ZvZ is no longer a dice roll, even if it was at some point. The better player wins just as often as in any other matchup and can even overcome the supposed 'suicide' of 12 hatching versus a 9 pool. Sometimes the better makes a stupid decision and loses, see Jaedong versus Roro. He really didn't need to try a ramp bust, but did and got punished for it. Even Luxury whose ZvZ is a notch below JD's only occasionaly drops games to scrubs.

I hope someone finds this useful or interesting so that I didn't completely waste my time. I will probably come back and extend this later, perhaps adding other matchups.

(If you see any glaring errors or minor spelling mistakes, feel free to PM or something so I can fix)

Definitions:
9 pool: make spawning pool at 9 supply, no ovie first
overpool: make overlord then pool, still at 9 supply
12 pool(see note for raid assault): after 2nd ovie make 3 drones for 12 supply then pool
12 hatch: after 2nd ovie make 3 drones for 12 supply then hatchery
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
December 01 2008 08:30 GMT
#2
Seems like a good 1000 post - placeholder - I'll read soon.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 08:39:58
December 01 2008 08:38 GMT
#3
Wow, this is really impressive. Kudos.

I've been trying to get some decent insight to ZvZ, this is a really sweet framework to pick up stuff from.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 08:43:08
December 01 2008 08:42 GMT
#4
i wish someone would do this for pvz because pvz can kiss my ass right now
i don't ever understand it at all, even when i'm watching half the time
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22256 Posts
December 01 2008 08:50 GMT
#5
Very nice read! A nice use of your 1000th post, welcome to quadruple digits.

I'd love to see additional comparisons but I can't even imagine how long this alone too you. Very nice analysis though, and I agree with you that ZvZ is less 'random' than it used to be; the better player typically does win.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
December 01 2008 18:10 GMT
#6
On December 01 2008 17:42 anotak wrote:
i wish someone would do this for pvz because pvz can kiss my ass right now
i don't ever understand it at all, even when i'm watching half the time

I'm probably going to add more match-ups in the future, just depends on which ones I get to first.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
December 01 2008 18:13 GMT
#7
ZvT has to be next, this is the hardest MU in the game T_T
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
December 01 2008 18:18 GMT
#8
very cool thread
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
IzzyCraft
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4487 Posts
December 01 2008 18:21 GMT
#9
I should have made better usage of my 1000th post, nice read.

Although i find most zvz to be a coin flip I've find long time pros be wiped by no bodies. This mu is a very micro hard mu not so much build unless rush distance is short or very long. Also that is alot of 12 pool I've never considered that a good bo must be the rush distance for raid assault
I have ass for brains so,
even when I shit I'm droping knowledge.
Kami
Profile Joined July 2008
United States127 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 18:22:45
December 01 2008 18:22 GMT
#10
On December 02 2008 03:13 EsX_Raptor wrote:
ZvT has to be next, this is the hardest MU in the game T_T


Nah ZvT is easy, 12 hatch into 3 hatch mutas every game.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25987 Posts
December 01 2008 18:22 GMT
#11
Wow, this is fantastic. Inspiring, actually. Thanks so much.
Moderator
Amnesty
Profile Joined April 2003
United States2054 Posts
December 01 2008 18:28 GMT
#12
[overpool] 1-1 [12 pool]
Wait whats the difference?
The sky just is, and goes on and on; and we play all our BW games beneath it.
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
December 01 2008 18:35 GMT
#13
Holy shit this is incredible
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 18:37:35
December 01 2008 18:36 GMT
#14
On December 02 2008 03:28 Amnesty wrote:
[overpool] 1-1 [12 pool]
Wait whats the difference?

Overpool you make your pool after you start your overlord, but before it finishes.
12pool is pool after ovie is done and after 3 drones

Also to the OP, you shouldn't waste any more time going over RA2 games, as the map is already off the PL cycle, and I doubt people will ever again.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
December 01 2008 18:40 GMT
#15
On December 02 2008 03:36 lgdDante wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 03:28 Amnesty wrote:
[overpool] 1-1 [12 pool]
Wait whats the difference?

Overpool you make your pool after you start your overlord, but before it finishes.
12pool is pool after ovie is done and after 3 drones

Also to the OP, you shouldn't waste any more time going over RA2 games, as the map is already off the PL cycle, and I doubt people will ever again.

I added definitions to the OP.

And yeah, there are definitely more interesting things to do.

[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 18:53:36
December 01 2008 18:43 GMT
#16
A neat analysis, but you make me want to face palm. There are still dice in the game of Brood War. (Most people don't know where the dice are or when they are used. And there are countless blatant examples of peoples ignorance in this littered throughout the brood war community).

ZvZ on 2 player maps isn't a dice roll unless there is a significant mineral imbalance (paranoid android). Otherwise, on Peaks for instance, it is actually a very indepth game of pure skill with 0 luck. (Almost 0).

On 3 player maps, it is less of a dice roll. It depends how fast you scout, should be overlord + 9th drone. But if the positions are far and the drone misses, there will be a bit more luck.

On 4 player maps, there are dice. They will be rolled. Not to say there isn't skill, if both players scout eachother first with the 9 drone, then they will be playing a game of skill. If neither player scouts the other first, the luck begins.

But in all honesty, on a 4(or more) player map a good zerg who is not near Jaedongs level ZvZ, could literally 4-0 him if he 12 pooled and scouted that player last every game while they 12 hatched. (Which happens often enough in ZvZ to be a hassle). This isn't to say that his superior skill couldn't make him return the favour to this zerg in an 8-0 fashion. That is actually to be expected. He would often make comebacks that the other zerg could not make. But the point still stands that he could definitely suffer a 4-0 loss from someone not nearly as good as him, whereas if he were a protoss or terran player, he would have beaten them 12-0 in those games rather than 8-4. Or say on peaks this series would have turned into 11-1 or 10-2 rather than the abysmal looking 8-4.

Whereas on a 2 player map, such as Peaks, he would probably tear that player apart 75 - 85% of the time. (possibly more due to it being Jaedong).

Skill matters more on 2 player maps in ZvZ. On 4 player maps, the start can mean an uphill battle that sometimes you won't climb out of.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
December 01 2008 18:51 GMT
#17
Great write-up...your analysis especially is great. I never thought about maintaining ling count after mutas have popped.

On December 02 2008 03:22 Kami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 03:13 EsX_Raptor wrote:
ZvT has to be next, this is the hardest MU in the game T_T


Nah ZvT is easy, 12 hatch into 3 hatch mutas every game.

Ah yes...the one standard and relatively safe BO that is equally weak to nearly half a dozen T openers. Definitely easy. -___-;;
Hello
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
December 02 2008 04:14 GMT
#18
On December 02 2008 03:43 MYM.Testie wrote:
A neat analysis, but you make me want to face palm. There are still dice in the game of Brood War. (Most people don't know where the dice are or when they are used. And there are countless blatant examples of peoples ignorance in this littered throughout the brood war community).

ZvZ on 2 player maps isn't a dice roll unless there is a significant mineral imbalance (paranoid android). Otherwise, on Peaks for instance, it is actually a very indepth game of pure skill with 0 luck. (Almost 0).

On 3 player maps, it is less of a dice roll. It depends how fast you scout, should be overlord + 9th drone. But if the positions are far and the drone misses, there will be a bit more luck.

On 4 player maps, there are dice. They will be rolled. Not to say there isn't skill, if both players scout eachother first with the 9 drone, then they will be playing a game of skill. If neither player scouts the other first, the luck begins.

But in all honesty, on a 4(or more) player map a good zerg who is not near Jaedongs level ZvZ, could literally 4-0 him if he 12 pooled and scouted that player last every game while they 12 hatched. (Which happens often enough in ZvZ to be a hassle). This isn't to say that his superior skill couldn't make him return the favour to this zerg in an 8-0 fashion. That is actually to be expected. He would often make comebacks that the other zerg could not make. But the point still stands that he could definitely suffer a 4-0 loss from someone not nearly as good as him, whereas if he were a protoss or terran player, he would have beaten them 12-0 in those games rather than 8-4. Or say on peaks this series would have turned into 11-1 or 10-2 rather than the abysmal looking 8-4.

Whereas on a 2 player map, such as Peaks, he would probably tear that player apart 75 - 85% of the time. (possibly more due to it being Jaedong).

Skill matters more on 2 player maps in ZvZ. On 4 player maps, the start can mean an uphill battle that sometimes you won't climb out of.

Oh wow, this is a great post. Something I hadn't really thought about before. Mind if I quote this in the OP?
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
December 02 2008 04:27 GMT
#19
Great 1000th post!
Really interesting to see these stats.

I wanted to ask if you saw EffOrt's strange builds (I think they are on all of his ZvZ's in GSL). He does some really weird 9 overgas, 11 pool and then a hatchery and spire, and gets very fast mutas out but maintains a good ling count to defend. I really tried to learn more about the build but without replays it's kind of hard to see how he does it.

Btw, did most of the 12 pools progress into 12 pool, 11 gas, 12 hatchery?
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
December 02 2008 04:30 GMT
#20
On December 02 2008 13:27 Superiorwolf wrote:
Great 1000th post!
Really interesting to see these stats.

I wanted to ask if you saw EffOrt's strange builds (I think they are on all of his ZvZ's in GSL). He does some really weird 9 overgas, 11 pool and then a hatchery and spire, and gets very fast mutas out but maintains a good ling count to defend. I really tried to learn more about the build but without replays it's kind of hard to see how he does it.

Btw, did most of the 12 pools progress into 12 pool, 11 gas, 12 hatchery?

iirc, yes they did for the most part proceed in to 11 gas, 12 hatch(usually at nat). Hm no I didn't see Effort's builds, I might check up on them though.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
December 02 2008 04:42 GMT
#21
very nice! sticky? the other matchups are a bit more difficult, since theres a lot more variation
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
Roxen000
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
1226 Posts
December 02 2008 05:30 GMT
#22
Very interesting. Well done! Congrats on 1k posts, keep it coming =D
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