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On November 27 2008 12:18 wswordsmen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? So you don't ask the question because you don't know the answer you ask the question to see how the masses will respond. My response: Define significantly, if significantly means much better . Define much better.
Damn English, its just so damn vague. Anything can mean anything. 
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Just say Flash has been doing better than Jaedong so far. Don't toss in opinion words like significantly and much.
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On November 27 2008 11:53 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable. Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good. did you watch the game? did you watch jaedong's games vs kal/fbh? and although you would expect flash to win that game, losing to zero is no shame imo. the guy's been hot flash has been playing better than jaedong, but idk about _significant_. significant is very unclear... how significant is significant
probably pretty sagnificant
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On November 27 2008 13:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 11:53 OneOther wrote:On November 27 2008 11:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 11:16 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 11:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 27 2008 10:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 27 2008 09:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quick bait question here: does anyone think flash's proleague performance has been significantly better than jaedong's proleague performance this season? yeah huh I would agree if you took off the significantly. 10-4 vs 10-5? Except the game against Jaedong [where Flash was rushed iirc], Flash has looked GOOD. It's not about win record. Jaedong has looked good in some games, and TERRIBLE in others. So yes, Flash is doing significantly better, because win or lose, Flash looks like a top player in good form. That can not be said for Jaedong. He's inconsistent, hes unstable. Lol, Jaedong is one of the top players who has never slumped in his career so far. I'm not saying Flash didn't look better, just not significantly better, I mean, losing to Zero? That's what you call looking good. did you watch the game? did you watch jaedong's games vs kal/fbh? and although you would expect flash to win that game, losing to zero is no shame imo. the guy's been hot flash has been playing better than jaedong, but idk about _significant_. significant is very unclear... how significant is significant probably pretty sagnificant
Not sAgnificant enough if you ask me.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better 
Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
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On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
Yes, but they went farther in the Starleagues.
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United States10774 Posts
Steve: I explained why Jangbi and Kal should be higher in this post, but I don't think you ever got around to it.
On November 24 2008 09:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
No, I am not putting any emphasis on the name value. I am just observing the games and making logical conclusions.
First of all, no matter how much you want to disagree with this, Jaedong is not playing at the same level. Getting spanked by FBH like that (it wasn't cheese win or anything) is not something a normal Jaedong would do. If you haven't watched this game, I highly recommend you do. His muta micro was subar - in fact pretty awful if you want me to be honest - losing all but one after minimal harassment. Then he loses three lurkers by burrowing them in worst possible location and getting surrounded by marines. Even his defiler management wasn't the same, constantly losing expos when he could have saved them with dark swarm. Don't get me wrong, FBH is awesome at TvZ, but Jaedong's play dropped. It's a fact. Now, let's move on to the ace match vs Kal. If anything, Jaedong needs to be penalized for this pathetic game. There is no way in hell he would have lost this game if he hasn't been under-performing. Kal cuts probes, and does a shuttle/2 reaver + speed zealots attack. Jaedong snipes the shuttle and both reavers, and Kal suicides his zealots. Note that this game is on Andromeda, a Zerg favored map in ZvP. Then what does he do? Jaedong decides to spend all the resources on 24 lurkers and suicides them all into dragoons and high templars. His crappy play in these two crucial games alone justify, in my opinion, a lowered placement for him. You call this "consistent highest level of pro StarCraft?" If he can only show that verses terrible players like Shark, Soo, and Sunny, your argument fails. He needs to be able to show it verses all players, win or lose.
Secondly, I disagree with mostly everything you said about Jangbi and Kal. Jangbi's PvP may not be as good as his PvT and PvZ, (which are both outstanding) but he has vastly improved in this matchup. Jangbi did lose to Backho 1-2 in the EVER OSL, but he has since beaten very good Protoss players like Stork, Free, Much, and Kal. His PvP is NOT terrible. You are not giving this guy enough credit for what he has been doing. Prior to his loss against Bisu, he was pretty much undefeated in MSL and doing excellent in Proleague, while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro. And while I do agree Kal is inconsistent in general, his win verses Jaedong was closer to Jaedong playing horribly than Kal playing better than he usually does. Kal stepped up and beat Stork + Jaedong in _crucial_ ace matches. He deserves a lot of props for that.
Jangbi and Kal are both very good, and let's not label their PvP terrible. They are not. Sure, their PvP may not be as good compared to the other top Protoss players of this golden age of Toss such as BeSt, Stork, and Bisu, but they're still very solid. Both of these guys have been playing great, certainly better than Jaedong.
I haven't watched Flash's games so I won't comment on them.
In conclusion, I think Jangbi and Kal should be placed higher than Jaedong not because they are the best players around (I don't think they are better than they actually are) but because Jaedong has not been playing at the same level. Jangbi and Kal, on the other hand, have won crucial matches and been playing solidly for a while now, while advancing further in Starleagues at the same time.
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United States10774 Posts
I guess the only change is that I watched all of Flash's games now 
I could see a case for Jaedong above Kal due to his inconsistent proleague performance (though I still think Kal deserves a higher spot for clutching it at the most important times. it's the opposite of jaedong, who sucked in them), but no way in hell should JD be higher than Jangbi.
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"while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro"
while i agree with most of your arguments, oneother, there is no reason to point out that he lost to roro in order to argue for you cause. There is no slumping going on with jaedongs zvz!
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United States10774 Posts
hm yeah his zvz is as good as ever. I guess his loss verses roro was a fluke ;p however my point is jangbi was doing well in both MSL and Proleague, while Jaedong dropped those games in Pl that he shouldn't
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Come to think of it, nowadays we take jaedongs zvz wins for granted.
There is no other progamer in recent time who dominated a single matchup like jaedong does. What BeSt displayed in pvp was merely a short period of time compared to jaedongs monster of zvz.
I wonder how he can dominate zvz so much, which was considered to be somewhat of a luckbased matchup not too long ago.
That being said, i can't understand how lecaf oz has been losing in proleague recently. Jaedong always wins his games on RA2 vs some zergplayer so they basically start with 1-0 and they have lomo forgg backho and hiya. Pretty wierd actually. However jaedong losing in the ace doesn't help the team that much T_T
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On November 27 2008 15:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Come to think of it, nowadays we take jaedongs zvz wins for granted.
There is no other progamer in recent time who dominated a single matchup like jaedong does. What BeSt displayed in pvp was merely a short period of time compared to jaedongs monster of zvz.
I wonder how he can dominate zvz so much, which was considered to be somewhat of a luckbased matchup not too long ago.
That being said, i can't understand how lecaf oz has been losing in proleague recently. Jaedong always wins his games on RA2 vs some zergplayer so they basically start with 1-0 and they have lomo forgg backho and hiya. Pretty wierd actually. However jaedong losing in the ace doesn't help the team that much T_T
I believe in 3 out of the 4 games they lost, fOrGG was not playing. I'm not sure though.
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On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though
They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes .
I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening .
FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too .
I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs ....
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On November 27 2008 14:36 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though Yes, but they went farther in the Starleagues.
July won OSL last season but he was only fourth on the rankings :/ ....Winning the SL is so fucking harder then makeing it far that it ain't even funny .
Back in GOM season 3 Mind won the MSL . He beat Oov , Savior and Bisu all in Bo series , one of the strongest MSL roads in history . Where was he on the PR ~ # 5 was it . I by looking at the rank never even thought that Mind actually won the MSL before i found out . Back then Bisu was still #1 for some reason that i didn't understand . He was in a bad condition althought finished second in MSL and third in OSL raped by Stork 0 - 3 . I think its just that he build up a reputation by winning leagues and playing strong so it is expected of him to be the favourite , Savior too .
But the next OSL and MSL they fell harder from the PR then TheRock in a starleague .
So shit happens , but it is all done for the greater good of the PR  .
When Jaedong or Flash start slumping it will get notice don't worry . I can't understand why people say that Jaedong is slumping when all he is done is winning from Ever 07 OSL , then he won MSL after that this season he won WCG korea and GSI season classic . Still is a favourite to win season two give him some room to fail before you bulldoze him back to the minor leagues , he ain't God he can't win them all .
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On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs ....
woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true.
"Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months."
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On November 27 2008 21:04 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs .... woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true. "Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months."
"were" you see it in there :D
That's exactly wthat i'm saying that Jaedong isn't a 1 man team so thats why he doesn't win every game in PL , but if it keeps it up he may become one . Lecaf is starting more and more to depend an Jaedong don't know what happent to ForGG this past month ? The other players are expected to win 1 game so they can send him in the ace game . Last month this is what i'm seeing . If Lecaf get its gear in to shape i think that they will retake their number 1 place with ForGG /Jaedong if it comes to ace they could even use other players if Jaedong isn't doing to well . But if they all start slumping and all that Lecaf does is sending their best player aka JD , he will become a 1 man army in PL like Flash and Free were for their teams , well Flash i think is still of this type even though they have Luxury now .
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On November 27 2008 21:20 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2008 21:04 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 27 2008 20:09 raga4ka wrote:On November 27 2008 14:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:its a bait question because i watched the last 10 PL games Jaedong and Flash have played again and OneOther is completely right, Flash is playing better Jaedong is sure as hell still better than jangbi and kal though They kinda of drop it in Ace matchs . I mean Jaedong is espected to beat Kal and any other toss , Flash an the other hand i think his TvZ is his weakest MU and i can see him droping games vs good zergs . I still can't figure if Jaedong's weakest MU is ZvT or ZvP they are both strong , but i think his ZvP is stronger then his ZvT although he sometimes makes stupid mistakes . I don't think that loseing in PL in an Ace game is a meaning of a slump or droping in skills . Normaly if the team is doing bad the Ace players also are not doing very well in PL unless you are Free and you are a 1 man team which Free and Flash were and Jaedong is now slowly becomeing one because of the other talented Lecaf players not doing so well . I would call Jaedong slumping if he loses 3 ZvZ's in a row and I know that ain't happening . FS although i disagree with you on Kal/JangBI's PvP . I think they are about equal with Bisu/Stork's . They are not playing terrible PvP its just that Stork and Bisu have far more experience . I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be above Kal and JangBI . Just because JD dropped 2 ace games to Flash's 1 and the games he played he was sloppy and didn't show his killer instincts he should be below Flash . They are tradeing their spots between the "slow SC months" but now with the GSL finals comeing i think that JD and Flash will start bulldozing their way to it. Stork and Bisu will always be a legitimate threat to them and Kal , Free and JangBI too . I personally can't tell who is better player based on 2 - 3 PL games and MSL only full of PvPs .... woongjin isnt a 1 man team, Zero has a better PL stat right now, and Lecaf isnt a one man team either. just that if Backho lost, the terrans won, if the terrans lost JD and Backho took it to the ace and there earned the win. Recently they lost 2 ace match, and both Backho and the terrans lost their games in another match. What Spiralarchitect wrote might be true. "Lecaf may have overextended themselves too early in the season and are now paying the price as every team is vying for their head. They still maintain a strong lineup with good ace players to back them up and I don’t see them going anywhere in the next few months." "were" you see it in there :D That's exactly wthat i'm saying that Jaedong isn't a 1 man team so thats why he doesn't win every game in PL , but if it keeps it up he may become one . Lecaf is starting more and more to depend an Jaedong don't know what happent to ForGG this past month ? The other players are expected to win 1 game so they can send him in the ace game . Last month this is what i'm seeing . If Lecaf get its gear in to shape i think that they will retake their number 1 place with ForGG /Jaedong if it comes to ace they could even use other players if Jaedong isn't doing to well . But if they all start slumping and all that Lecaf does is sending their best player aka JD , he will become a 1 man army in PL like Flash and Free were for their teams . You see the "were" word again .
ohm, yes, i wasnt paying enough attention, sry
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ZvZ is a tossup, that`s why jd loses from time to time. If u watch his games he is CLEARLY the best at that MU
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 27 2008 14:44 OneOther wrote:
words
i did in fact read this post and I just don't agree.
Jangbi and Kal had ridiculously easy MSL opponents the entire way through (Except Kal who played Stork, but those two have a history and Stork will probably never beat him in a series). The problem here is that all they've had to play lately is PvP and they really never look "good" in that matchup. There are players who DO look good (Stork, Bisu most of the time, Pusan sometimes, Anytime always) in PvP, but jangbi/kal never do. They win games, they lose games, but they don't display any level of mastery in the matchup.
Kal's other matchups are better, but I wouldnt say his PvT is anything special (his PvZ certainly is). Jangbi's PvT is phenomenal but I just don't think that his other matchups have been good enough lately to trump Jaedong, who is consistantly a favourite in all three.
The wildcard here is free, who I'm debating putting above Jaedong. Yes, he lost to Bisu in horrible fashion, but so did Jangbi, and so would have Kal. The difference is that over the last two months free's PvT has been at Jangbi level and his PvZ has been fucking strong. Out of the three (Jangbi Kal free), free definitely looks like the most complete player, and he has had games that impressed me recently. Jangbi beating up on Yellow[ArnC] and Mr. No-Late-Game Hwasin just doesn't do it for me.
It's a tough spot. You can't weigh PL matches too heavily, but with how easy Jangbi/Kal's MSL runs were, there's just no justification for putting them above Jaedong, who is far, FAR more likely to win a title in the coming season than either of them.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2008 08:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:words
okay, maybe jangbi and kal's performances weren't special enough, but they certainly looked better than jaedong.. seriously, he's done nothing besides beat up newbies (who are far worse than yellow[arnc] and hwasin) and suck huge balls in games against Kal and FBH. i agree jangbi and kal had it easy in PL, but try to compare them relative to jaedong. only thing that jaedong going is your speculation that he has a better shot than them at winning a title, whereas jangbi smashed his way to the MSL finals and has an outstanding record in proleague. kal, similarly, beat stork and made it to the MSL semis. stork is my favorite player, but we gotta give kal credit for what he has done. i say this for the third time, but kal stepped up and won crucial matches against jaedong and stork. and jaedong? exact opposite.
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EPT
