I think jangbi hasnt proven himself yet in PvZ. Sure 21-13 is a great record but don't forget he beat Yarnc 8 times and lost only once. When 40% of your victory comes from his own bitch, it's hard to judge his vZ match-up. Without Yarnc it would be 13-12, that's kinda different. Now there is no reason to not count his victories vs Yarnc because they were legit but still i would wait to see how jangbi performs vs other big zergs before calling his PvZ "outstanding".

Dazed.

Canada3301 Posts

November 28 2008 01:05 GMT

#545

On November 28 2008 09:53 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
I think jangbi hasnt proven himself yet in PvZ. Sure 21-13 is a great record but don't forget he beat Yarnc 8 times and lost only once. When 40% of your victory comes from his own bitch, it's hard to judge his vZ match-up. Without Yarnc it would be 13-12, that's kinda different. Now there is no reason to not count his victories vs Yarnc because they were legit but still i would wait to see how jangbi performs vs other big zergs before calling his PvZ "outstanding".

This sentiment has already been raped repeatedly; Jangbi has defeated the entire Zerg race with ease excluding the VERY best- Jaedong and July. You do not have to beat every single player of a race out there to have enough evidence to show a match up is competent. Jangbi has done what Anytime, Bisu, Free and any other good pvz player has ever done- rape zergs.

End of story, basically.

Lukeeze[zR]

Switzerland6838 Posts

November 28 2008 01:39 GMT

#546

the "entire" zerg race ? If we exclude his 0-4 record vs jaedong/savior and the fact that he never played July, here is the list :

chojja, orion, yarnc, max, HyuN, ZergBoy, Gorush, shark, magma.

Impressive ? Not yet, good start though.

Basically my initial sentiment is utterly justified, end of story.

FakeSteve[TPR]

Valhalla18444 Posts

November 28 2008 01:58 GMT

#547

On November 28 2008 09:32 OneOther wrote:
FS is

whats your thoughts on what i said about free while we're talking in here

baubo

China3370 Posts

November 28 2008 02:41 GMT

#548

On November 28 2008 08:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:

Show nested quote +

i did in fact read this post and I just don't agree.

Jangbi and Kal had ridiculously easy MSL opponents the entire way through (Except Kal who played Stork, but those two have a history and Stork will probably never beat him in a series). The problem here is that all they've had to play lately is PvP and they really never look "good" in that matchup. There are players who DO look good (Stork, Bisu most of the time, Pusan sometimes, Anytime always) in PvP, but jangbi/kal never do. They win games, they lose games, but they don't display any level of mastery in the matchup.

I agree with everything up to this point.

Kal's other matchups are better, but I wouldnt say his PvT is anything special (his PvZ certainly is). Jangbi's PvT is phenomenal but I just don't think that his other matchups have been good enough lately to trump Jaedong, who is consistantly a favourite in all three.

And Jangbi ISN'T a consistent favorite in all 3 MUs? This season he's 1-3 against Bisu and 8-1 against everyone else? He's not favorite against Stork or Bisu, but he's not an underdog against anyone else. I can't see how Jaedong's at another level here unless you want to factor into past season's play.

The wildcard here is free, who I'm debating putting above Jaedong. Yes, he lost to Bisu in horrible fashion, but so did Jangbi, and so would have Kal. The difference is that over the last two months free's PvT has been at Jangbi level and his PvZ has been fucking strong. Out of the three (Jangbi Kal free), free definitely looks like the most complete player, and he has had games that impressed me recently. Jangbi beating up on Yellow[ArnC] and Mr. No-Late-Game Hwasin just doesn't do it for me.

This is pretty biased analysis. You are basically giving Free credit for his accomplishment against terrans and zergs, as he has played them a lot, but skimping the fact that he has played basically no tosses this season(2-0 the almighty TT and 0-1 against Pure in addittion to Bisu) while Jangbi has gone through Pusan, Kal in a series, Pure, and Much. Free's PvP is more questionable than Jangbi's PvZ no matter how you spin it, especially because PvP has been his problem MU, and there's nothing to suggest otherwise right now.

It's a tough spot. You can't weigh PL matches too heavily, but with how easy Jangbi/Kal's MSL runs were, there's just no justification for putting them above Jaedong, who is far, FAR more likely to win a title in the coming season than either of them.

As OneOther pointed out, this is theoretical vs. reality. And if you want to go by this criteria, the PR may as well be in the form of Vegas odds rather than a look at player's accomplishment.

FakeSteve[TPR]

Valhalla18444 Posts

November 28 2008 02:57 GMT

#549

PR isn't about accomplishments, its about playing well. Free is definitely playing better than Jangbi, and no, Jangbi is nowhere near a consistant favourite in all three matchups.

And praising free isn't biased analysis, I really hate it when people throw that term around. I can't fucking stand free, he's a little effeminate shitbag.

baubo

China3370 Posts

November 28 2008 03:20 GMT

#550

On November 28 2008 11:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
PR isn't about accomplishments, its about playing well. Free is definitely playing better than Jangbi, and no, Jangbi is nowhere near a consistant favourite in all three matchups.

And praising free isn't biased analysis, I really hate it when people throw that term around. I can't fucking stand free, he's a little effeminate shitbag.

So basically it comes down to watching games and determine "who played well"? Regardless of final outcome?

Then we'll just agree to disagree then.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

November 28 2008 03:20 GMT

#551

On November 28 2008 10:58 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:

Show nested quote +

whats your thoughts on what i said about free while we're talking in here

Comparison to Jangbi:
although I think Jangbi is more balanced all around (better PvT and PvP, but not by much) I would say Free is better at PvZ, since he has proven himself in the matchup - something Jangbi is lacking. I disagree with your claim that Free is doing better than Jangbi though. He doesn't have an edge in anything, including MSL and Proleague. Yeah, both of them lost to the eventual champion Bisu, but I see no basis to say that Free is doing better than Jangbi. If anything, they are at the same level. They should both be above Jaedong.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

November 28 2008 03:21 GMT

#552

Idk how you can say this when Jangbi has mercilessly _dominated_ every opponent he has faced, with the exception of Bisu of course.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

November 28 2008 04:16 GMT

#553

but honestly i don't really care who's higher between free and jangbi, i can see a legitimate reason for each of them. as long as they are higher than jaedong ;P

Avidkeystamper

United States8556 Posts

November 28 2008 05:34 GMT

#554

On November 28 2008 13:16 OneOther wrote:
but honestly i don't really care who's higher between free and jangbi, i can see a legitimate reason for each of them. as long as they are higher than jaedong ;P

Really? I thought you liked Jangbi more.