EPTEDIT: PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.
![[image loading]](http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6495/balance.png)
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Power Rank 12/01/2009 - Page 19
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
EDIT: PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ. ಠ_ಠ | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
Flash is nearing 70%, and that's a pretty damn good achievement; I don't think anybody has been able to do that in a sample close to the 300+ games Flash has. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On December 22 2009 02:02 4Servy wrote: pvt is a unplayable match up atm flash need to come with this new build fast imo. Bogus already did. Just copy him. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
I didn't see that game so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Flash was the original inventor of the "cheese Bisu out of the tournament" BO. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
You're just looking at latest stats in just proleague. You need to look at bigger picture with a lot more sample number. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82758 TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%) PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%) Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours 49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 22 2009 01:40 Lebesgue wrote: And what the fuck is that about time to use them. If anything scan requirs time to use it. You can just put your observer in the most common routes and see exactly where Terran army is and when Terran push is coming without moving your finger. In a TvP game where nowdays Macro fest is the norm, you will have lots of CCs. You'll have at least 3 scanners minimum. When you have that many scans, you don't need to wait for energy, just use it whenever and wherever Protoss on the other hand, requires time to use observers because you need to move them across the map and observer building requires time. And Terrans will scan the common places in their own base to take out the observers. So a Protoss needs to keep pumping observers to compensate (which costs gas) and they need to waste time to make them and send them to T's base, while they keep getting taken out by turrets/scan You use scan on a P's base and he can't do anything about it | ||
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aegisabcde
United States145 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:34 AzureEye wrote: You're just looking at latest stats in just proleague. You need to look at bigger picture with a lot more sample number. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82758 TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%) PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%) Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours 49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap Protoss players (not the race) used to suck yet they still PvT at 51.09%. Now that's a sign of true imba. | ||
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
On December 22 2009 01:52 SimonB wrote: Isn't it crazy to think that for either Flash or Jaedong's win percentage to drop to a mere 60%, they would have to lose over 50 games in a row? That shows you how much they dominate that they would still have among the best winning percentages among progamers after that. Flash is nearing 70%, and that's a pretty damn good achievement; I don't think anybody has been able to do that in a sample close to the 300+ games Flash has. Jaedong actually had a ~69.4% in I think slightly more games played at the start of July when he was unbeatable (and over-worked, so he started losing). Tweak the dates and you'll find it. Then he went down to 67.5% because of his zvz mini-slump. It's bound to happen to Flash soon, too. Retaining 70%+ on the pro level is unbelievably difficult. Edit: hmm, I guess the added games skewed the percentage. When I checked 4-5 months ago, jaedong won 69.4% of his games. 243 wins - 109 losses (69.03%) That's the best I could find. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:34 AzureEye wrote: You're just looking at latest stats in just proleague. You need to look at bigger picture with a lot more sample number. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82758 TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%) PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%) Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours 49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap You're an idiot. Games that happened 8 years ago being included in the current metagame balance is just plain stupid. The most relevant large sample we can get is the recent proleague and starleague games. As always, the imbalance lies in maps, and Arbiters have a fun time abusing terran positions through Recall or Stasis+Storm nowadays. Just like it was in the olden days where Terrans stomped everyone because of all the terran favored maps (and, well, no one knowing correct macro/unit composition as well). | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:34 AzureEye wrote: You're just looking at latest stats in just proleague. You need to look at bigger picture with a lot more sample number. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82758 TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%) PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%) Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours 49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap Who cares about historical stats? We're talking about PvT balance right NOW. And right now, there's every indication that TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror, with ZvP and PvT fighting for most imbalanced. If you disagree, then let's take your logic and try applying it a bit. Your position right now: -Terran has a large advantage over Zerg -Zerg has an advantage over Protoss (but not as big as the TvZ advantage) -Protoss has no advantage over Terran So basically, T >> Z > P = T Well then hey, isn't it obvious that Proleague teams should send out 2 Terrans in their lineup? If the Terran runs into Zerg, they get a large advantage (the MOST imba matchup according to you!), if they run into another T it's even, and if they run into another P it's even! Zerg and Protoss can't compete with that, it's so obvious that we should send out two Terrans in Proleague! Except that they don't. Zerg get the vast majority of double-slots in Proleague. If what you said was true, why would they do this? What about the super-Terrans with no weaknesses and huge advantages over Zerg players? It would be suicide! If anything, Zerg should be the LEAST likely race to get a double-slot in Proleague with your logic. Proleague teams mostly send out double Zerg now, double Terran is MUCH less common. This means: - They aren't as afraid of TvZ imba as they are of PvT imba. - They are happy to take advantage of ZvP imba without fear of being countered by TvZ. But I mean hey, they're just pro-Starcraft coaches, what do they know? I'll be sure to send them a letter: "AzureEye made an amazing discovery about race imbalance! You know how most teams are sending out double Zergs lately? All you have to do is send out double Terrans! Wham, bam, instant huge advantage since TvZ favors Terran so much and it doesn't matter if your Terrans run into Protosses, because PvT is like totally balanced!" I mean holy shit man, it was so simple. How could all these pro-teams not have noticed how TvZ is the most imba non-mirror? They've been acting totally like it was the MOST balanced non-mirror this season, but now you can set them straight by showing them a list of medal winners dating back to the stone age. | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
fantasy was just a temporary solution | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
To be fair, Hyun is currently on a rampage.  He is on a five winning streak. That's not impressive, what's impressive is that players involved in it... | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:29 Hinanawi wrote: Who cares about historical stats? We're talking about PvT balance right NOW. And right now, there's every indication that TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror, with ZvP and PvT fighting for most imbalanced. If you disagree, then let's take your logic and try applying it a bit. Your position right now: -Terran has a large advantage over Zerg -Zerg has an advantage over Protoss (but not as big as the TvZ advantage) -Protoss has no advantage over Terran So basically, T >> Z > P = T Well then hey, isn't it obvious that Proleague teams should send out 2 Terrans in their lineup? If the Terran runs into Zerg, they get a large advantage (the MOST imba matchup according to you!), if they run into another T it's even, and if they run into another P it's even! Zerg and Protoss can't compete with that, it's so obvious that we should send out two Terrans in Proleague! Except that they don't. Zerg get the vast majority of double-slots in Proleague. If what you said was true, why would they do this? What about the super-Terrans with no weaknesses and huge advantages over Zerg players? It would be suicide! If anything, Zerg should be the LEAST likely race to get a double-slot in Proleague with your logic. Proleague teams mostly send out double Zerg now, double Terran is MUCH less common. This means: - They aren't as afraid of TvZ imba as they are of PvT imba. - They are happy to take advantage of ZvP imba without fear of being countered by TvZ. But I mean hey, they're just pro-Starcraft coaches, what do they know? I'll be sure to send them a letter: "AzureEye made an amazing discovery about race imbalance! You know how most teams are sending out double Zergs lately? All you have to do is send out double Terrans! Wham, bam, instant huge advantage since TvZ favors Terran so much and it doesn't matter if your Terrans run into Protosses, because PvT is like totally balanced!" I mean holy shit man, it was so simple. How could all these pro-teams not have noticed how TvZ is the most imba non-mirror? They've been acting totally like it was the MOST balanced non-mirror this season, but now you can set them straight by showing them a list of medal winners dating back to the stone age. Completely ignoring historical stats for the current metagame is foolish. The way metagame has evolved is because of what is was before. That being said, I agree that TvZ hasn't been as imba as before. But it still is, despite the Zerg season. The current Zerg season just shows how they just have 1 year of dominance compared to the 7+ years of Terran dominance. So TvZ isn't 100% imbalanced. Its only 86% imbalanced. Does that sound better to you? Yeah my theory is T>Z>P = T but your argument fails to take account the skills of each player. No matter how much advantage one race has over another, individual player's skills matter a lot. This is why we don't see teams sending 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zerg. If you have Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, go.go., and Effort in 1 team, its common sense to use the two Zergs over the two Terrans. You also didn't factor in maps in your argument. The fact that it took Zergs over 8 years to overcome TvZ slaughter just shows how much struggle they had to put up with to change the way it is played. And even with the "zerg season" Zergs don't dominate Terrans as bad as T's used to dominate Z's. If you think TvZ is the most balanced non mirror matchup....you're out of your mind. Its PvT | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
Using your method, we would analyze PvT using the most "recent" metagame. Well, this metagame certainly shows Protoss won with a gruesome 85% win rate in PvT. Does this mean PvT is imba? No, it just means you looked at a small sample size and small duration of time, no matter how recent. You need to look at the bigger picture, because metagame will constantly evolve no matter what. Maps will change, players' skills will change, teams will change. For a game as complicated as this, there is no way you can analyze a matchup with just recent performance. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 22 2009 11:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: And early maps heavily favored Terrans, which is part of the massive terran domination over the years. If you really want to take map balance into the overall race balance of the game then T being equal to P is actually a signifier that P is > than T when all things are equal. This is exactly why we cannot look at just a portion of the matchup history. If we looked at the period you talked about, we would assume that TvP is imba in favor of T. By looking at the bigger picture with different maps over time, we can see how balanced the actual matchup is. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On December 22 2009 11:59 AzureEye wrote: This is exactly why we cannot look at just a portion of the matchup history. If we looked at the period you talked about, we would assume that TvP is imba in favor of T. By looking at the bigger picture with different maps over time, we can see how balanced the actual matchup is. I'm sorry, we aren't talking about how the matchup is currently? Sure, perhaps TvP is "balanced" in theory (and I suppose the long-term statistics show that.) But at this moment, Protoss have the advantage. Maybe it's meta-game, maybe it's new strategies, maybe it's the maps, maybe it's the players [Stork, Bisu, Best PvT > Flash, Fantasy TvP?] -- but they do. | ||
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aegisabcde
United States145 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
It's just starcraft as usual. | ||
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