Best - After an extended hiatus in which he stumbled around getting whacked by all and sundry, it appears that Best is back. With a single loss to Roro this month, Best has dispatched Forgg, Frozean, Darkelf but also sent Calm, and wait for it, Flash packing, a feat that raised eyebrows up and down the proscene. Yes, in a fantastic PvT on Fighting Spirit, Best busted out the macro we know him for and made many arbiters and killed many tanks. His win vs Calm, though not spectacular in itself, is also commendable, even given Calm's recent form. It's been a while since Doh Jae Wook's been anywhere near the PR, and although we're not sure where the SKT T1 Protoss is going next, for now he's here, and we're sure has put JWD in a good mood for the rest of the month.
Shine - Former Bonjwa-to-be, slayer of Bisu and curer of terminal disease, Shine dropped the ball this month with losses to Saint and Action, to name a few. He did win his OSL game against Effort, but this alone is not enough to break into the PR. To be fair, 4 - 4 is not a bad record. In fact, if his losses had been against better players he'd have most definitely stood a chance for #10. As it is though, his play has just been sub par this month, and Shine or not, he's lucky to even make CBNC.
I thought Stork crashed and burned in MSL not in PL other then that great PR . I like how you point out that JD lost to Savior - which isn't that big of deal when you look at that every strong zerg is kind of a inconsistant in ZvZ at the moment .
Edit: All yeah just saw the MBC vs Khan thread and i got what you meen by crashing and burning in PL by stork .
On December 01 2009 01:54 BloodDrunK wrote: great pr.agree with it.but what about violet and really???they have been playing well.why aren't they in CBNC even???
I dont know about really since he even though not killing noticeable players has tearing through things lately. And just goaway and comeback when you have a CBNC with Violet in it. (Still undeafeted in proleague going 6-0) and won ace match vs Mind. If you say that his games vs Shine and Light (which is the only thing that he lost against recently) it was both high caliber games with both sides and that happend last month.
Flash No1 and JD No2 are 100% correct. The other spots are really hard IMO, so I can't really say I disagree with any of them at the first glance. Maybe the lack of Violet. He should've at least been on CBNC if not the PR.
On December 01 2009 01:54 BloodDrunK wrote: great pr.agree with it.but what about violet and really???they have been playing well.why aren't they in CBNC even???
I dont know about really since he even though not killing noticeable players has tearing through things lately. And just goaway and comeback when you have a CBNC with Violet in it. (Still undeafeted in proleague going 6-0) and won ace match vs Mind. If you say that his games vs Shine and Light (which is the only thing that he lost against recently) it was both high caliber games with both sides and that happend last month.
Well come to think of it Light also deserves CBNC also Hwasin , and maybe by.hero but it would make for a long CBNC list
Agrees with everything except Shine for CBNC because Shine proves he is nothing but a one trick pony and there are other players who are much better than Shine anyway.
On December 01 2009 02:26 LunarDestiny wrote: Agrees with everything except Shine for CBNC because Shine proves he is nothing but a one trick pony and there are other players who are much better than Shine anyway.
Well he still has a mean ZvP and his ZvZ is quite good too, probably up there with the top zergs . I can't say if his ZvT is really bad he only lost to Hwasin and Hwasin played especially good in their first game and throwed him off his timmings in their second game with a cheese .
I don't really think Bisu has done anything worthy of advancing in the PR this month (though nothing to go down either), but then again I guess his rise has more to do with Clam failing and Stork choking in the MSL and against MBC, and he did play solidly. So it's all good.
On December 01 2009 02:15 okum wrote: Great PR! When in doubt, Flash-Jaedong-Bisu (in some order) is always a good top three.
Ya. If you're going by the ''Who would be the favourite in a Bo5?''-criteria (which I tend to do) they would pretty much be permanent holders of the Top 3 spots. Unless someone else does something great or one of them fucks up majorly they are kinda there by default in my eyes.
I disagree tih fantasy dropping so hard when he had a much better month than calm. better record even beating calm in a effectively a best of 3. should Sea be over him this month YES should calm be over him this month.....NO. Calm is simply ranked to high for going 2-5.
the only reason he is even on the PR is pure bias "Calm is a great player".
Hmmm, one thing that strikes me as a bit weird when I think about it is how low Fanasy is. I hate him and all, but he raped Calm in OSL and then also beat him in their ace game, so seeing Calm above Fantasy is a tad confusing. The loss to Flash is completely ignorable, because that would happen to every other T in the world.
My biggest disagreement is putting Calm above Sea and Fantasy. Calm could have even gone down to CBNC and let someone like Kal or Best or Shine have #10.
Alright PR but I am irked by a few things Bisu really didnt deserve to be at no3 or jump up to it, its true that he didnt get much chance to prove himself but Zero/Effort did and are playing well and are in both leagues right now + going by that same criteria you used for Bisu, Fantasy shouldnt have even dropped 3 spots randomly after a strong month( loss to Flash + loss while 2-1ing calm where it mattered while showing strong play as usual) infact he should be higher considering after going 1up vs Calm he looks in decent shape to qualify out of the group.
Calm should be 9-10 at best, his performance has been mediocre, a 2-6 record even against decent opposition is not worthy of being in PR on basis of previous performances alone, and even if it was based on such I believe he wont get much chances to prove it in the following months considering being down 0-1 in his OSL group and having 2 ZvZs(which is becoming quite a even mu these days) making his qualification a toss up and lowers his chances of qualifying by a lot. His play and decision making in his games vs Fantasy/Best were abysmal and he failed to show a strong late game with complete control(other than him rolling mediocre tosses like Backho/Rock around).
Best should have been on the PR, strong 2-0 opening in the MSL + strong PL performance + showing that he is picking his PvZ back up from being the worst in the business, a complimentary 10th spot would do I would suppose, and unlike Kwanro who showed really terrible ZvT vs Ruby and gimmicky greed vs Flash, best has looked solid in the 2 mus he got to play this month. Violet shouldve gotten CNBC too I suppose, if Sea acquired a rank based on PL performance only which Violet is 6-0 at PL with really strong play(especially in the late game even in all of his games) even in his recent losses he looked really strong.
Overall due to scanty results this month it was kind of difficult to place the 3-10 positions and this is an adequate PR I suppose.
P.S: I really didnt like the usage of circular reasoning within the PR (between JD and Bisu) itself and I hope you try to refrain from using that in the next PRs considering the sketchiness of Bisu's position in the first place
I'm actually a Fantasy anti-fan (it gives me warm tinglies when he loses), but I think he should be a bit higher here...I would have switched Calm and Fantasy's positions if it were me.
The rest of it looks alright. I would have put BeSt at #10 and not Kwanro, but that might be bias seeing as how Kwanro got rolled so easily by Flash.
Stork...I'm so sad for him. When I woke up and saw Stork at #5, I knew his PL game must have gone badly, but I didn't expect him to go 0-2 in one PL set.
Riptide did you watch the same month of starcraft I did?
A 5-3 Kwanro who's best win came against Movie gets the #10 spot over Really who went 6-1 and beat Sea and Ruby (the latter having defeated Kwanro)?
And fantasy dropping all the way to #9 for going 4-2 with one loss against FvT, and with a dominant win over Calm? Meanwhile Calm who's looking absolutely terrible falls only to 7th? Watching their series can you honestly say that Calm is playing better, or better in general than Fantasy?
Even more confusing, you cite poor strength of schedule as reasons why EffOrt, (dude, Light is a way better player than you give him credit for) ZerO, and Fantasy are all lower than expected. Yet you promoted Bisu to #3 despite him playing only four games in the month, with only one win against a strong player- by.hero. Perhaps Bisu didn't play enough games to justify putting him lower, but you put him higher...
I'm so confused with the rational of half of the rank here.
Well, I could see Kwanro over Really because he's in both individual leagues compared to Really's...none.
I don't see Fantasy below Calm, Calm played bad bad bad.
And your third point, I think he just chalks that up to the fact that Bisu could play better, he just didn't get the chance this month-he hasn't played in individuals yet. I agree with your third point, I'm just saying riptide isn't irrational with his choices.
Bisu is way too high. I'd put him under Stork. The only reason I'd have him there is if he was in that position on the last rank, but instead he gets moved up???
Whoa, WHOA, surely I'm not the only one shocked by Fantasy's placement? He
a) destroyed Hoejja, wasn't even close [W] b) lost to Flash in TvT, but who doesn't [L] c) beat Baby (didn't see that game) [W] d) embarrassed Calm in the OSL [W] e) lost a game to Calm in PL but didn't play badly at all [L] f) walked all over Calm again in a lategame TvZ with sick micro and good multitask [W]
Basically, all month I haven't seen him play a bad game; he's 2-2 against other PR players; 2-0 against non-PR players; his bio vs Z has never looked better; and you say he's slipping? I just don't understand where you're coming from.
(edit: yeah I'm not the only one, and I got ninja'd hard)
hm. imo Fantasy should be a little higher up going 2-1 vs Calm including a win in an ACE match should merit something higher than 9
Entries 4 , 5 , and 6 are in my opinion totally interchangable. Both Stork, Effort and ZeRo are playing great starcraft Stork : getting back in shape for a great OSL run ZeRO : playing light's out in PL Effort : being a beast in whatever he does
but imo ZeRO should be higher than both of them with his 9-1 record in PL he is the #1 reason that the Stars are as high as they are
On December 01 2009 06:03 Djabanete wrote: Whoa, WHOA, surely I'm not the only one shocked by Fantasy's placement? He
a) destroyed Hoejja, wasn't even close [W] b) lost to Flash in TvT, but who doesn't [L] c) beat Baby (didn't see that game) [W] d) embarrassed Calm in the OSL [W] e) lost a game to Calm in PL but didn't play badly at all [L] f) walked all over Calm again in a lategame TvZ with sick micro and good multitask [W]
Basically, all month I haven't seen him play a bad game; he's 2-2 against other PR players; 2-0 against non-PR players; his bio vs Z has never looked better; and you say he's slipping? I just don't understand where you're coming from.
(edit: yeah I'm not the only one, and I got ninja'd hard)
I agree that he should be higher than Calm, but I think that's the correct placement of fantasy. Like everyone is saying, Calm is slumping. Going 2-1 against someone slumping that bad is not an accomplishment, its something everyone expects someone on the power ranks to be able to do. The only time he's played against someone higher up in the rankings than he is was that game against Flash, which he lost. He hasn't shown the dominance to move up the rankings, while others have played much better. I think fantasy should be #9 and Calm either #10 or not on the PR at all.
I am mixed about this PR. I like ZerO been higher or Sea entering but in my view, instead of making big jumps (like Bisu, Stork, fantasy, Kwanro) you should put here Violet, Really, Kal and Shine. (in this order).
The PR is kinda flawed even with Jaedong, with him making incredibly many mistakes, or with Calm, who is unrecognazible... And EffOrt is at the lower limit too.
I've always felt great PL performances by players that aren't in any leagues are overrated.
Regardless of what the players might say, they want to advance in the individuals (especially since it's only R1 of proleague) and it's a LOT harder to prepare for both individuals and PL.
I think Sea's placement is about right but maybe even a little too high.
Flash seems to regularly get on these insane runs, where he just stomps everything in his path. The poor boy can't keep it up though, I hope for him he gets a title this season.
I don't see the problem with dropping Calm off of the list even though he was number 3 last month. One time a number 1 was left off of the list in the next month's rank.
'Course that wasn't the same guy doing the list...
I really hope Stork's confidence isn't too affected by this recent string of losses. His last run was the definition of true S-class, and I wish for him to remain that way for much longer.
Anyway, I don't think Fantasy should be moved up, it's just Calm should be moved down lower than him. Also, Bisu at 3 is quite unconvincing for the same reasons others mentioned.
What I don't get is why Stork is so high. I just watched his game vs Movie and it is awful in just about every way. (Ya he took down the natural fast but Stork screwed up multiple times after that)
On December 01 2009 13:02 wswordsmen wrote: What I don't get is why Stork is so high. I just watched his game vs Movie and it is awful in just about every way. (Ya he took down the natural fast but Stork screwed up multiple times after that)
His play during the rest of the month was great. It wasn't even just that his record was strong, he played some amazingly strong games. I don't know if I agree with his ranking, but I would imagine that would be the justification.
Not much to say about the rank itself that hasn't been said already, but good job getting these things out so fast, riptide! It's not even December 1st where I am...
But I have three objection: 1. Calm is too high. Should be at most 9. His play (except for the game against Fantasy on Tornado) is really bad. 2. Fantasy should be higher than Calm. 3. Violet for CBNC.
Fantasy should be higher than Calm. This can only be explained by the TL Calm bias, imo. And I don't think it is obvious that Flash should have the #1 spot over JD. But that depends on how you value a WCG viktory. I want to add that if Flash is #1, then I think Zero should be higher too. Lastly, the only way to justify Bisu #3 is on old performances.
On December 01 2009 18:28 Elroi wrote: Fantasy should be higher than Calm. This can only be explained by the TL Calm bias, imo. And I don't think it is obvious that Flash should have the #1 spot over JD. But that depends on how you value a WCG viktory. I want to add that if Flash is #1, then I think Zero should be higher too. Lastly, the only way to justify Bisu #3 is on old performances.
Wait so you are trying to say that Jaedong deserves #1 spot just because of WCG victory?
On December 01 2009 18:28 Elroi wrote: Fantasy should be higher than Calm. This can only be explained by the TL Calm bias, imo. And I don't think it is obvious that Flash should have the #1 spot over JD. But that depends on how you value a WCG viktory. I want to add that if Flash is #1, then I think Zero should be higher too. Lastly, the only way to justify Bisu #3 is on old performances.
Wait so you are trying to say that Jaedong deserves #1 spot just because of WCG victory?
No, that is not what I "trying" to say. However I don't think the choise is obivious, I mean JD has had the most success in this month because he has acctually won something. But it depends on how you value WCG as I said. As I am quit new to TL I don't really know how the power rank works... I'm ofc okay with Flash being #1 because he is obviously a monster, but then I think that Zero should be higher because he has also been owning up proleague recently.
Just before i read this is there something about bisu and jaedong with a kespa like effect, they play like shit for a month and stay up in the top 5, flash can play just as bad and be dropped off compleatly Anyway agree compleatly with no.1, if jaedong and bisu wernt so high this list would be spot on Thanks riptide!
On December 01 2009 20:15 Scaramanga wrote: Just before i read this is there something about bisu and jaedong with a kespa like effect, they play like shit for a month and stay up in the top 5, flash can play just as bad and be dropped off compleatly Anyway agree compleatly with no.1, if jaedong and bisu wernt so high this list would be spot on Thanks riptide!
Jaedong should definitely be that high. Bisu is somewhat arguable, but it's not completely wrong in any way.
On December 01 2009 20:15 Scaramanga wrote: Just before i read this is there something about bisu and jaedong with a kespa like effect, they play like shit for a month and stay up in the top 5, flash can play just as bad and be dropped off compleatly Anyway agree compleatly with no.1, if jaedong and bisu wernt so high this list would be spot on Thanks riptide!
That's a totally unfair characterization.
Flash was dropped off the PR after a month in which his only achievements were a gold in gom and the highest number of PL wins for the season.
Jaedong won over 4 games total this past month. It's a totally different situation.
What a lovely throne our #1 is sitting on right now.
This is ridiculous. Only two people (Bisu and Jaedong) are within 100 points of him. He's also rapidly approaching the 2300 mark in vT, which has never been broken before.
This is not the time to be bitter! Rejoice instead, KT/Flash fans, for this is it; the time for the Ultimate Weapon's era of complete dominance has come! The Ultimate Weapon is now perfected!
On December 01 2009 20:29 Holgerius wrote: This is not the time to be bitter! Rejoice instead, KT/Flash fans, for this is it; the time for the Ultimate Weapon's era of complete dominance has come! The Ultimate Weapon is now perfected!
HAIL FLASH
I honestly did not see him rising back up *that* fast. He must've gotten laid or something :O
u gotta be kidding me a) since when are WCG games to be considered for the PR? i mean, was there any word about bisu dropping games to effort & jaystar(!) at IEF and that he didn't make it out of his group? b) why is bisu #3 and calm #7 when fantasy is #9? according to TLPD bisu played 4 games in november, going 3-1 with wins against hero-gorush-mind, while losing to luxury (noone who is in the PR atm) calm played 8 games in November, went 2-6, dropped out of MSL, lost to fantasy in OSL, lost to fantasy the ace match (and a game against hyun as well) fantasy on the other hand went 6-2, with 2 wins against calm in OSL & ace match, hoejja and baby, and 2 losses against flash(#1 PR and being on a 13 win tvt streak or what) and calm
so why on earth is bisu then ranked 6 spots higher? ofc bisu is still (given storks recent results) the #1 toss, but is he SO much better than fantasy? and that's what I really don't understand: if you put calm in the PR (for whatever reason), then why is he 2 spots above fantasy? his ELO is 22 points lower, he went 1-2 against fantasy in important matches, he is 2-6 overall this month
i don't get it
€: ok i don't know if fantasys recent match against HITE was already counted for ELO so with the 22 points i could be wrong. still, the argument holds imho
More or less i agree if Stork didnt pull a 2 days of bad games i would put him on 2nd place but he sucked and i was disapointed hope he rises even stronger than before Stork for OSL then !
On December 01 2009 20:15 Scaramanga wrote: Just before i read this is there something about bisu and jaedong with a kespa like effect, they play like shit for a month and stay up in the top 5, flash can play just as bad and be dropped off compleatly Anyway agree compleatly with no.1, if jaedong and bisu wernt so high this list would be spot on Thanks riptide!
That's a totally unfair characterization.
Flash was dropped off the PR after a month in which his only achievements were a gold in gom and the highest number of PL wins for the season.
Jaedong won over 4 games total this past month. It's a totally different situation.
On December 01 2009 01:36 riptide wrote: we're sure has put JWD in a good mood for the rest of the month.
Yes he has! BeSt has been playing really great SC again lately. I'm sad to see Kwanro hogging the 10-spot, especially since he lost pretty awfully to Flash in his highest-profile game of the month. I think BeSt deserved a place on this rank, he's 8-2 in his last 10 official games now and in November had wins against your #1 and #7. Sure Kwanro also 2-0d his MSL group, but he had the luxury of playing Hwasin and Shine.
On December 01 2009 04:12 Holgerius wrote: Hmmm, one thing that strikes me as a bit weird when I think about it is how low Fanasy is. I hate him and all, but he raped Calm in OSL and then also beat him in their ace game, so seeing Calm above Fantasy is a tad confusing. The loss to Flash is completely ignorable, because that would happen to every other T in the world.
Like everyone's been saying, Calm is ranked way too high for his performance. The OSL game against Fantasy was awful, I've never seen a player that was so unsure of his performance. It's as if he didn't prepare at all because he looked confused and his play showed it. Fantasy completely dominated him and it wasn't even close to being a good game. Also, calm dropped the ace match to fantasy, which was a good game, but he had an economic advantage in the middle, which he proceeded to piss away over the remainder of the game. Kwanro has also looked pretty weak, the loss to Flash might not be embarrassing, but he got dismantled by Ruby, which may not be as embarrassing as it used to be, but is a pretty poor performance by a player who made it to the MSL finals last season (even if you blame it on maps or whatever). Best would have been a much better candidate for 10th at the very least.
As much as I am a Calm fan, I kinda think he should be lower than the others. Everything else seems Okay, but I'm surprised Flash came back so quickly. I expect to see him maintain his position! :D
On December 01 2009 01:36 riptide wrote: we're sure has put JWD in a good mood for the rest of the month.
Yes he has! BeSt has been playing really great SC again lately. I'm sad to see Kwanro hogging the 10-spot, especially since he lost pretty awfully to Flash in his highest-profile game of the month. I think BeSt deserved a place on this rank, he's 8-2 in his last 10 official games now and in November had wins against your #1 and #7. Sure Kwanro also 2-0d his MSL group, but he had the luxury of playing Hwasin and Shine.
The luxury of playing Hwasin?! Hwasin's TvZ is still quite good.
(That said, I think I would have put Best over Kwanro too, but beating Hwasin in ZvT is still a strong win.)
Where is violet? He should at least have made it into CBNC, I personally would have even chosen him over kwanro. (Yeah he's out of both leagues but that was the month before and he did get kicked out of the MSL while playing with style) The man's 8-2 in his last 10 games, with notice being the only bad player out of those 10. Seems at least CBNC worthy.
Can't argue with 1-9 though, seems like a good list.
As much as it pains me to say this, Calm Clam shouldn't even be ranked . He had a losing record last month, and was eliminated in the Ro32 of the MSL as the reigning champion. Even if he is one of the ten best players right now, he certainly isn't performing like it. I was going to defend fantasy, even though I really don't like him, but after watching him get rolled by T-bizzle, I will not. While JD's 6-2 record isn't particularly overwhelming, he did win 2 ace matches, and his OSL game, so no complaints about his ranking. I feel like Best was worthy of being ranked, but there's no need for me to fuss.
A lot of players have been playing quite well in the past month, but Flash and Jaedong are the only really dominant ones I can think of. Really difficult to choose who to place between the 3rd to 10th spot.
On December 02 2009 20:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I take offense to the description of Flash's loss to BeSt as "embarassing"
QFT, and seconding all other comments about the inexplicable lack of love for BeSt in this PR. Best's PvT is monstrous, and it always has been. He's 3-0 career vs. flash. He tore through his MSL group which included Calm, even though he has been notoriously weak at PvZ. Make no mistake, Best is back.
On December 02 2009 23:58 meegrean wrote: A lot of players have been playing quite well in the past month, but Flash and Jaedong are the only really dominant ones I can think of. Really difficult to choose who to place between the 3rd to 10th spot.
On December 03 2009 04:19 pvzvt wrote: guess shine is on his way back to the PR and wow amz game between stork and flash
Hell no, he's not gonna be consistent enough. The month has barely begun.
On December 03 2009 08:18 Torlak wrote: It's always nice to see the Holy Trinity on top. Here's hoping for some nail-biting action and another great season in Starcraft, cheers!
Only when they all actually should have been ranked there...
On December 03 2009 19:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash screwed up yesterday. =(
Even as JD fanboy I say one loss against Stork doesn't deserve losing #1.
Yea, and on Heartbreak Ridge of all maps lol
If this PR was written today, or tomorrow, I bet the 3-10 positions would be radically different. The past two weeks of progaming have been so unpredictable...
once again justice is served with an iron hammer upon those who do not deserve to be in their undeserved PR spot yet are ranked highly in it due to the PR writer's misdoing
On December 03 2009 21:57 De4ngus wrote: He shouldn't have been there in the first place. I already said this, but I really really think Effort and Stork should have been put above him.
Edit: Whoops, I didn't see the post above mine. It's like the same thing lol.
More like Effort and Zero . They still have not dissapointed except randomly loosing ZvZ which i don't blame them since even JD loses .
On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote: you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O
The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is, Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine.
On December 03 2009 21:54 samachking wrote: once again justice is served with an iron hammer upon those who do not deserve to be in their undeserved PR spot yet are ranked highly in it due to the PR writer's misdoing
It's ironic yes, but Bisu at #3 should be debated on the results of his month, it has nothing to do with how terrible he's playing right now.
EDIT: So did I. I'm just saying that going down that road is problematic. We both agree!
On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote: you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O
The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is, Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine.
On December 03 2009 21:54 samachking wrote: once again justice is served with an iron hammer upon those who do not deserve to be in their undeserved PR spot yet are ranked highly in it due to the PR writer's misdoing
It's ironic yes, but Bisu at #3 should be debated on the results of his month, it has nothing to do with how terrible he's playing right now.
I did debate it like many others have done in the first few pages
On December 03 2009 21:57 De4ngus wrote: He shouldn't have been there in the first place. I already said this, but I really really think Effort and Stork should have been put above him.
Edit: Whoops, I didn't see the post above mine. It's like the same thing lol.
Bisu got #3 basically because there wasn't any real evidence that he was playing bad. He didn't play many games but it did look like he had stabilized. Progaming has just been so messed up over the past month ... I suspect that January will yield a very very different ranking
Unless he loses almost all of his remaining Proleague games, I can't see Bisu dropping off the list altogether. He's looked really unbalanced lately, but brief periods of ineptness happen even with S-class players. His game against Mind was excellent, so it's not as if his skills just vanished. More like he plays sloppy against opponents he doesn't respect. Which is really not a good skill to have. It's pretty clear just from PL round 1 that everyone's skills have improved significantly and that no one is rolling over for anyone anymore.
If the Power Rank is supposed to be any sort of indicator of who is currently "powerful", then Bisu is sure as hell not dropping off it unless he continues to fuck up this month. And he sure as hell won't be continuing to fuck up, because he'll be coming back with a vengeance after these recent embarrassments, and he'll have nothing to distract him from practicing for proleague.
Jaedong is starting to find his groove again. Although it is troubling that his only two losses out of his last 10 games have been to zerg, and zerg who clearly should NOT have beaten him.
Jaedong's ZvZ is still shoddy, he's just playing less of it now, his ZvP and ZvT never went anywhere, he just barely played any last month because he was seeded so far in the individual leagues.
On December 04 2009 07:27 DreaM)XeRO wrote: as much as i love Bisu he has got to get off of the next PR
losses to Bogus, Guemchi and HAKSOO... -___- all of which he should have beat quite comfortably, or was expected to beat quite comfortably.
His much vaunted PvP and PvT seemed very sloppy and quite amatuerish
To be fair, there is no indication that his PvT is any weaker than it ever was. Any Protoss would've lost to Bogus' cheese on that map if they did the same opening as Bisu, unless they were incredibly lucky with a scout.
On December 04 2009 11:50 Avidkeystamper wrote: Jaedong's ZvZ is still shoddy, he's just playing less of it now, his ZvP and ZvT never went anywhere, he just barely played any last month because he was seeded so far in the individual leagues.
I really think a lot of the recent ZvZ weakness can simply be attributed to the gains other Zerg players have made. Zerg players as a whole have actually had reason to focus on ZvZ as a matchup now, and the gains in unit control can also be seen in other matchups, especially with the vP Mutalisk-sniping trend.
That's not to say that he's -not- playing worse, because I don't think he's as dominant as he was. I just think that a lot of it is because the gap between Jaedong and "tier 2" Zerg is smaller than it was in the past.
Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote: Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote: Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
Yeah, I dunno, I'm not seeing this really. Savior's ZvZ was the last thing he improved and his ZvZ was the last matchup to go, and Savior's the last player who's had a big enough career to measure and whose trajectory is complete (though if he does make a comeback it would be great).
I do believe, however, that the JvZ era is over and isn't coming back. Jaedong's understanding of the matchup and his unit control used to be so far ahead of everyone else that he could often overcome build order disadvantages. His understanding and unit control are better than ever, but all the other Zerg have studied his VODs and replays to death and have raised their decision making and micro to the point where build order disadvantages are much harder to overcome, just like in the old days. Today if Jaedong goes overgaspool against a 12hatch from any proteam's top ZvZer, he's guaranteed to lose.
Sorry, but I can see any justification of having anyone who got out of BOTH Starleagues before the Ro16 AND lost to Haksoo. IMO, Bisu is going to have to be REALLY good in Proleague this month for him for me to be okay with a low spot this month
On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote: Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
Savior won the ZvZ ace to get CJ into the Proleague finals vs. Lecaf even though he was well into his major slump at the time. I think it is more likely that a players ability in long games goes first, and MU that have shorter game lengths tend to be the last part of a slumping players performance to go. Of course I haven't seen enough players crash and burn to be sure of this, but the theory behind it certainly is plausible.
On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote: Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
Savior won the ZvZ ace to get CJ into the Proleague finals vs. Lecaf even though he was well into his major slump at the time. I think it is more likely that a players ability in long games goes first, and MU that have shorter game lengths tend to be the last part of a slumping players performance to go. Of course I haven't seen enough players crash and burn to be sure of this, but the theory behind it certainly is plausible.
I would expect that opposite - that more precise match-ups with less room for error (i.e. shorter match-ups) are the first to go when a player starts slumping. Longer match-ups can more easily by played on the weight of your long experience in BW.
On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote: you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O
The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is, Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine.
Yeah he lost a few games but he was still good enough for that position and just a few games didn't drop him off and it was the right call!
On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote: you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O
The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is, Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine.
Yeah he lost a few games but he was still good enough for that position and just a few games didn't drop him off and it was the right call!
Except that last month you had no idea if he was good enough for that position. Theoretically he could've slumped ever after, and the #2 spot would have looked even sillier in retrospect than it did after that PR came out. I never said Jaedong should've fallen off the rank, but he should've been around #5, with how well other people were playing in relation to him.
Just because a player did well the month after doesn't mean the PR was somehow validated. Again, it's not intended as a prediction, otherwise we'd never see anyone new on the rank.
I think Really will actually be noticed by Riptide on the next PR. Ignoring his existence twice is a little much, imo.
Except that last month you had no idea if he was good enough for that position.
Over the last eighteen months, Jaedong's had brief periods where his play doesn't look completely dominant and his win percentage is around 60-65%. He has always rebounded and gone on to dominate once more. Riptide took that into account and assumed that he would return to form as he always has. You can go on constructing a fantasy world where he would have "slumped ever after," but it didn't happen, nor was it anywhere close to likely to happen. Riptide made the right call last month. It never needed to be validated by future results. If Jaedong had played poorly recently this power rank would have definitely registered that. Wow, look, it didn't have to. Anyone remotely familiar with Jaedong's record would have made the same decision as Riptide.
S-class progamers who have shown their resilience over a year or more both deserve and receive the benefit of the doubt for a month. Jaedong got it last month, Bisu got it this month. If it's two months, then their problem's more than just trivial and they begin to slide in the PR just like everyone else. To set up Power Ranks to measure only the accomplishments in the month at hand ignores everything we already know about proven progamers and gives undue respect to flavors of the month, especially when proleague is running while the individual leagues have only just begun. They don't just look dumb in retrospect, they already are dumb when they're put out.
Except that last month you had no idea if he was good enough for that position.
Over the last eighteen months, Jaedong's had brief periods where his play doesn't look completely dominant and his win percentage is around 60-65%. He has always rebounded and gone on to dominate once more. Riptide took that into account and assumed that he would return to form as he always has. You can go on constructing a fantasy world where he would have "slumped ever after," but it didn't happen, nor was it anywhere close to likely to happen. Riptide made the right call last month. It never needed to be validated by future results. If Jaedong had played poorly recently this power rank would have definitely registered that. Wow, look, it didn't have to. Anyone remotely familiar with Jaedong's record would have made the same decision as Riptide.
S-class progamers who have shown their resilience over a year or more both deserve and receive the benefit of the doubt for a month. Jaedong got it last month, Bisu got it this month. If it's two months, then their problem's more than just trivial and they begin to slide in the PR just like everyone else. To set up Power Ranks to measure only the accomplishments in the month at hand ignores everything we already know about proven progamers and gives undue respect to flavors of the month, especially when proleague is running while the individual leagues have only just begun. They don't just look dumb in retrospect, they already are dumb when they're put out.
Except the benefit of the doubt is different than #2 or #3 in the ranking. I'd say Calm got the benefit of the doubt this month. He played awful, and dropped to #7. I'd argue that's a little high, but nonetheless, he dropped hard after a bad month.
Who cares if JD is the greatest player of all time?- the fact is that the month before last he went 3-3, and his signature MU became his weakest. He was not playing like the #2 player in the world at that time, and that's all the PR is meant to do. The PR is never validated by future results, it's validated by the results that went into the rank. The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now. Because the interval of the PR is a month, than we take the results of the past month as our most recent evidence. You say that Riptide assumed that he would come back. So did I. But where's the room for actual facts if the PR is built on assumptions?
Hell, look at what Konadora assumes for every PL MU, and you can see how problematic assumptions can be. (Sorry Kona..!)
Finally, to say that anyone familiar with Jaedong's record would've made the same call is only a cute rhetorical device, but it's also blatantly wrong. A ton of people thought JD was too high.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
All right, I think I see what's going on. You joined TL shortly after JWD started writing the Power Rank and so you assume that how JWD wrote the Power Rank is how it's always been written. All previous PR writers wrote it as riptide does now. They strongly emphasized the month at hand but they didn't narrow their scope to consider performance in that month as the sole criterion to the exclusion of all past history. Keeping Jaedong at #2 last month was entirely in keeping with that tradition. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and that's how it's been since the Power Rank came into being, May-August 2009 excepted.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
All right, I think I see what's going on. You joined TL shortly after JWD started writing the Power Rank and so you assume that how JWD wrote the Power Rank is how it's always been written. All previous PR writers wrote it as riptide does now. They strongly emphasized the month at hand but they didn't narrow their scope to consider performance in that month as the sole criterion to the exclusion of all past history. Keeping Jaedong at #2 last month was entirely in keeping with that tradition. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and that's how it's been since the Power Rank came into being, May-August 2009 excepted.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
All right, I think I see what's going on. You joined TL shortly after JWD started writing the Power Rank and so you assume that how JWD wrote the Power Rank is how it's always been written. All previous PR writers wrote it as riptide does now. They strongly emphasized the month at hand but they didn't narrow their scope to consider performance in that month as the sole criterion to the exclusion of all past history. Keeping Jaedong at #2 last month was entirely in keeping with that tradition. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and that's how it's been since the Power Rank came into being, May-August 2009 excepted.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
All right, I think I see what's going on. You joined TL shortly after JWD started writing the Power Rank and so you assume that how JWD wrote the Power Rank is how it's always been written. All previous PR writers wrote it as riptide does now. They strongly emphasized the month at hand but they didn't narrow their scope to consider performance in that month as the sole criterion to the exclusion of all past history. Keeping Jaedong at #2 last month was entirely in keeping with that tradition. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and that's how it's been since the Power Rank came into being, May-August 2009 excepted.
Way to make wild assumptions about how long I've read this site. It's wonderful to be dismissed like that.
While it's true that I liked JWD's rankings better than Riptide's, I often took issue with some of JWD's methodology. But not only this, but Fakesteve wrote the PR with similar emphasis as JWD. And OneOther wasn't too different either. That's over a year of consistant PR emphasis on the past month as the best indicator of current performance.
Notice I never said only criterion. If record of the past month were the only criterion, then JD would not have even been on the October rank after going 3-3. But of course, he's Jaedong, and that's absurd, and so he should've dropped, but #2 was essentially the residue of an OSL win from months before. That seemed a little bizarre.
Please try to be a little less patronizing. Please represent my arguments fairly.
On December 08 2009 13:30 tree.hugger wrote: The PR doesn't measure past performance, or future performance, it measures performance right now.
That is your subjective take on what the PR is about. Everyone has their own. Riptide has IMO shown that he values past performances and hypothetical skill (or whatever you wanna call it) quite highly. That may seem wrong in your eyes, but in my eyes it's a very important thing to take into consideration. Obviously people should go up a down when they deserve to, but JD's performance last month really doesn't validate him dropping below any of the other people beneath him. He went 6-2 in November, with the 2 losses being ZvZ's in PL (and after one of those he won the ace game). JD's position as No2 is completely correct the way I see it. He would be the favourite against ANYONE except Flash in a Bo5 at the moment.
I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to Evo about the month before last when he was also #2.
All right, I think I see what's going on. You joined TL shortly after JWD started writing the Power Rank and so you assume that how JWD wrote the Power Rank is how it's always been written. All previous PR writers wrote it as riptide does now. They strongly emphasized the month at hand but they didn't narrow their scope to consider performance in that month as the sole criterion to the exclusion of all past history. Keeping Jaedong at #2 last month was entirely in keeping with that tradition. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and that's how it's been since the Power Rank came into being, May-August 2009 excepted.
Way to make wild assumptions about how long I've read this site. It's wonderful to be dismissed like that.
While it's true that I liked JWD's rankings better than Riptide's, I often took issue with some of JWD's methodology. But not only this, but Fakesteve wrote the PR with similar emphasis as JWD. And OneOther wasn't too different either. That's over a year of consistant PR emphasis on the past month as the best indicator of current performance.
Notice I never said only criterion. If record of the past month were the only criterion, then JD would not have even been on the October rank after going 3-3. But of course, he's Jaedong, and that's absurd, and so he should've dropped, but #2 was essentially the residue of an OSL win from months before. That seemed a little bizarre.
Please try to be a little less patronizing. Please represent my arguments fairly.
It's not really a wild assumption since you joined the community at may 16th 2009 according to your profile. Fair enough, you could've been lurking for a long time before that, but to call it a "wild" assumption seems like a stretch.
i've always found the past few months'/past month's/current/future performance debate to be a bit silly. i think a power rank is more about feeling - how much power does that name have. the most functional translation for that is who do you expect to win in a BoX (specific matchup strengths and weaknesses notwithstanding). part of what goes into how powerful the name feels is how much you expect them to perform on that specific day, whether you think they might randomly fail or randomly perform at an uncharacteristically high level. so even though when you think about it, sure, you expect zero to win a BoX against bisu, you also know bisu might pull off something completely sick, and zero might just collapse (just for instance). this is how past strength comes into the equation and it's completely relevant and important.
personally, I like hot bids method for the power ranking - it was something like: if you could pick one player to play against Darth Vader in a game for your soul, who would it be? That player is number 1.
Fantasy does for sure (at least the way things look now). He was at 9 last month and he's 0-5 in December. Now you can't even blame his bad performance in PL on ''He's doing great in OSL'', because he's knocked out of both individual tournaments.
Flash could very well be the first player ever to break 2400 Elo. To put that in perspective, while it isn't an equivalent score, this would be a skill breach so far above everyone that only Elo greats like Kasparov and Carlsen in Chess can compare to.
On December 11 2009 20:19 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy out of the PR please.
lol this will be one awkward PR, so many people need to go out
Bisu/Fantasy/Effort/Kwanro Its going to be hard to do
Fantasy should be out Bisu and effort should scrap the bottom spots of the PR .
Looks like It would be something like Flash Jaedong Zero Stork Calm ? top 5
Movie should be there instead of Calm. In both leagues despite tough games, the rock of CJ's now lacking protoss Line up, and frankly one of the only Protoss not only capable of beating zerg, but beating them with amazing play.
He's a little cheesey, but there's nothing wrong with that. Calm's mediocre PL performance, dropping of MSL, and honestly uninspired OSL play shouldn't be over someone who's doing better than him and playing better.
On December 11 2009 20:19 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy out of the PR please.
lol this will be one awkward PR, so many people need to go out
Bisu/Fantasy/Effort/Kwanro Its going to be hard to do
Fantasy should be out Bisu and effort should scrap the bottom spots of the PR .
Looks like It would be something like Flash Jaedong Zero Stork Calm ? top 5
Movie should be there instead of Calm. In both leagues despite tough games, the rock of CJ's now lacking protoss Line up, and frankly one of the only Protoss not only capable of beating zerg, but beating them with amazing play.
He's a little cheesey, but there's nothing wrong with that. Calm's mediocre PL performance, dropping of MSL, and honestly uninspired OSL play shouldn't be over someone who's doing better than him and playing better.
And I don't even LIKE Movie.
Movie isn't in both leagues - lost to by.hero and Canata , but he is really skilled tbh . Hard to say depends on their performance from now on , but i would put Calm higher because he is STX's Ace player and plays games with a lot of pressure for the team and Movie is not and this coming from a Movie fan btw .
On December 11 2009 20:19 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy out of the PR please.
lol this will be one awkward PR, so many people need to go out
Bisu/Fantasy/Effort/Kwanro Its going to be hard to do
Fantasy should be out Bisu and effort should scrap the bottom spots of the PR .
Looks like It would be something like Flash Jaedong Zero Stork Calm ? top 5
Movie should be there instead of Calm. In both leagues despite tough games, the rock of CJ's now lacking protoss Line up, and frankly one of the only Protoss not only capable of beating zerg, but beating them with amazing play.
He's a little cheesey, but there's nothing wrong with that. Calm's mediocre PL performance, dropping of MSL, and honestly uninspired OSL play shouldn't be over someone who's doing better than him and playing better.
And I don't even LIKE Movie.
Movie isn't in both leagues , but he is really skilled tbh . Hard to say depends on their performance from now on .
Erg, yeah you're right. I forgot that somehow Canata advanced over him.
Despite that, He's doing as well as Calm in OSL and their PL play is comparable. That leaves things up to past performance (Calm was garbage last month, as well) and gameplay, which Movie is a mile ahead.
Sad thing is, Flash is the only Terran really deserving of a PR spot. My how times have changed.
sure he's not in any league, but he can't change that this month. This month all he can do is to decide what to do with the time given to him (hi gandalf) and thats owning it up 12-1 so far! Should atleast be higher than he is now;)
On December 12 2009 01:29 StylishVODs wrote: sure he's not in any league, but he can't change that this month. This month all he can do is to decide what to do with the time given to him (hi gandalf) and thats owning it up 12-1 so far! Should atleast be higher than he is now;)
If only because every other decent player has made it their job to suck. =(
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
Your argument basically consists of "yes, sea is definately one of the top players... but he isnt in OSL/MSL"
Maybe you can come up with 5 people to put above sea, but who? Calm? yeah calm is in OSL (but only because effort beat fantasy) - but Calm has been playing terribly lately. Sea should definitely be above him. IMHO, Flash/Jaedong/Stork/Zero should probably be top 4 in some order, with Flash taking #1. At #5, I would put Sea - nobody else looks nearly as impressive.
Look at it this way: make a list of people who could play a really good game against Flash right now. This list is very short, and contains only Stork, Best, and probably Jaedong/Zero/Sea
Isn't it a little early to be talking about next months rank. There are more games to be played than currently have been played in December. I mean this time last month Flash was 1-1 a lot can change with nearly 3 weeks left in a month.
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
Look at it this way: make a list of people who could play a really good game against Flash right now. This list is very short, and contains only Stork, Best, and probably Jaedong/Zero/Sea
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
Look at it this way: make a list of people who could play a really good game against Flash right now. This list is very short, and contains only Stork, Best, and probably Jaedong/Zero/Sea
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
Look at it this way: make a list of people who could play a really good game against Flash right now. This list is very short, and contains only Stork, Best, and probably Jaedong/Zero/Sea
Daezang.
wait.. what??
flash played like crap against daezang, thats why I guess he mentioned him.
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
Look at it this way: make a list of people who could play a really good game against Flash right now. This list is very short, and contains only Stork, Best, and probably Jaedong/Zero/Sea
Daezang.
I have the game open in another tab right now, and I can say you are completely wrong with this one. The trouble Flash had after his mini-nukes went off was because he wasn't expecting to due that well. If his drop had been less successful, he still would have had a solid lead, since that big desperation attack wouldn't have happened. His 4th CC would have finished and with Daezang's 4th delayed as much as it was Flash would have been able to push out and crush him.
edit: I think Flash might have anticipated losing the upper left, since he (tried) expanded to the middle left as the arbiters came through twice.
No matter how the rest of the month goes, I think Bisu/Fantasy/Effort should be out. Especially the first two. Doesn't matter how they do the rest of the month...losses to the likes of Haksoo and Killer are unacceptable
On December 12 2009 06:00 ndralcasid wrote: No matter how the rest of the month goes, I think Bisu/Fantasy/Effort should be out. Especially the first two. Doesn't matter how they do the rest of the month...losses to the likes of Haksoo and Killer are unacceptable
I agree with Bisu/fantasy, Effort could save himself a #10 spot since he is still owning in PL as CJ's ace.
and I continue to sigh when he receives no hype when half assed Zergs from popular teams ride all of it
Oh he did have his hype then he got 3-0ed by Luxury. But wait we gave him another chance, even putting him above JD in PR! How did he repay us? Losing against Kwanro! :D
Well Calm was third last month and he is 7th now even with his horrible month, the reason being that going from 3rd to no top10 at all is way too much drop.
"While a bad record this month does make him drop towards the bottom of the rank, it's difficult to think of many players who can beat him in a bo5 at the moment. Calm had a terrible month, but a terrible month alone is not going to push a former #3 completely off the chart."
and I continue to sigh when he receives no hype when half assed Zergs from popular teams ride all of it
hmm havnt noticed it wow i mean i know he is doing excellent but this is amz he can very well take it if some how flash and jaedong would destroy one another
Is it just me or did ZerO really manage to fix his ZvZ recently? I just watched the tie breaker game that he played against Yellow[ArnC] and he played very well, not to mention his amazing game against TypeB. In fact, all around his play has been looking about as good as Jaedong's, and better than any of the other top Zergs (Calm, EffOrt). I just hope that he can keep it up and make it far in the leagues, I really like the guy. Of course he's been streaky as hell in the past and its too early to tell if he will just self destruct after taking a few losses and go on another 10-game losing streak. I hope not though, I really like his style - so fun to watch.
Flash has been such an amazing beast holy fuck he just forgot how to lose a game. Jaedong back at the top of his game as well. Really sad that Effort is losing it though. The Savior-Effort legacy is too good to give up
Man, JD got proleague on Wednesday, first set against Firefist on Thursday and then his first set against Flash on Friday. Then he has the remainder of his games against Firefist and Flash in the span of like 5 hours, he really got schedule screwed big time. Flash has it pretty bad too though, both these guys are so overworked...
On December 14 2009 01:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Haha, poor Flash, has to play Zero in MSL Ro16 and Jaedong in OSL ro8 the next day.
Jaedong gets Firefist then Flash, though, which is also kind of tough.
wow, Jaedong has the chance to eliminate 2/3 of KT while KT has the chance to eliminate JD lol
On the bright side (for Flash) they are both Zerg, and Flash is practicing vs. Zerg for PL so he will be only be playing one match up.
On the other hand game 1 vs Jaedong is going to be his 3rd vZ this week meaning he will need to give Jaedong a lot of information to study for their match.
On December 14 2009 02:05 Holgerius wrote: Jaedong vs Flash should've been a Bo5 final, and they should both have had a week free to practise for it. I just came a little just by imagining it.
Yup, would have easily been the most epic match since Nada vs Savior at Shinhan 3 (as far as hype goes at least). There is still a decent possibility that it will happen in the MSL though, with JD and Flash both looking near invincible lately and the Ro8 bracket being sorted after KeSPA ranking
On December 14 2009 02:05 Holgerius wrote: Jaedong vs Flash should've been a Bo5 final, and they should both have had a week free to practise for it. I just came a little just by imagining it.
Yup, would have easily been the most epic match since Nada vs Savior at Shinhan 3 (as far as hype goes at least). There is still a decent possibility that it will happen in the MSL though, with JD and Flash both looking near invincible lately and the Ro8 bracket being sorted after KeSPA ranking
Unfortunately JD said he wants to focus on MSL and I'd guess Flash would take OSL more important.
On December 14 2009 05:05 nonduc wrote: Yes, JD wants a Gold Badge, his collection is still incomplete, — but he didn’t say what he don’t want a Platinum Mouse.
Nada is still the G.O.A.T., but Jaedong is hot on his heels. If anyone can win a Platinum Mouse it's Jaedong. But he needs some MSLs too.
On December 14 2009 05:05 nonduc wrote: Yes, JD wants a Gold Badge, his collection is still incomplete, — but he didn’t say what he don’t want a Platinum Mouse.
Nada is still the G.O.A.T., but Jaedong is hot on his heels. If anyone can win a Platinum Mouse it's Jaedong. But he needs some MSLs too.
Players are much better now than when Nada was in his prime. JD vs prime Nada would be a complete rape.
It's a matter of definition I guess. Nada is unarguably the most accomplished player of all time with his 6 individual titles, but Flash and Jaedong are much, much better at playing SC. I personally hold JD as G.O.A.T with Flash being a potential future candidate.
On December 14 2009 05:05 nonduc wrote: Yes, JD wants a Gold Badge, his collection is still incomplete, — but he didn’t say what he don’t want a Platinum Mouse.
Nada is still the G.O.A.T., but Jaedong is hot on his heels. If anyone can win a Platinum Mouse it's Jaedong. But he needs some MSLs too.
Players are much better now than when Nada was in his prime. JD vs prime Nada would be a complete rape.
I meant in terms of trophy count rather than skill, obviously. Edit: Also this is a discussion that should stay well out of the PR thread. I was just expressing admiration for Jaedong, not trying to start one of these pointless old vs new discussions.
Yes, I agree with Djabanete — JD has a goal to overcome NaDa in medals score, because by now NaDa is No.1 in titles and now JD tied with NaDa only in the Starleague golds, not in MSL ones.
JD... Screw the MSL, get your platinum mouse son.Please don't focus on it. It would be a much greater feat if you got the very first platinum mouse instead of just another golden badge.
On December 12 2009 01:42 ThePhan2m wrote: Top 5 for Calm? comon, he has been playing horribly Sea definitly deserves a higher spot now. (I never thought I actually would've said this)
Sea is only playing in PL which means he can put all his practice in 1-2 games a week. As a player of his skill I'd expect him to perform at JD/Flash's level. A PL only player should never deserve to get into the top5 imo.
When PL was a side-show to "justify" teams and give greater exposure, this would have made sense. When PL is day in and day out, five days a week, two matches a week most of the time, the argument starts to be a little shakier.
Think about the OSL. We're down to a round of 8: look who's in it. I'd expect Sea to be able to beat Movie, Shine, and Pure at the moment, and maybe even Calm. And he already beat Stork. I don't know about a hypothetical best-of-five for these matches (although I still think Sea would win, I can't pass expert judgement or anything), but at some point a supposed "accomplishment" of a Starleague player just isn't enough to justify calling him a better player than a PL-only player who's playing better SC.
Case in point: I'm looking at you, type-b, and the August power rank. EffOrt is in the top 5. He crashed and burned and died in the Starleagues' mid-rounds (just like this time around), but his PL performance was absolutely stellar. Of course, I'm sure the fact that it was playoffs-time helped the case, but still. type-b sacrificed some PL games to make the Round of 8 in the OSL, and then took out Leta... for 10th place on the PR.
I also don't buy the scheduling argument. Sure Flash (or whoever) has to prepare for three (or five) games in addition to Proleague duties. But it's not an every-day thing. It's not an every week thing. The sheer grind of Proleague offsets, to me, the intensity of a SL match. Look at everybody's current favorite whipping boy, fantasy. With time to prepare, he goes toe-to-toe with Jaedong. With the grind, he loses big games to BAD Zergs. (In contrast, Flash deals with the grind much better but when he's not in Ultimate Weapon mode he cracks under SL pressure. The only "complete" player playing right now is Jaedong, and even he broke in the PL finals.)
GOAT is not determined by medal count... the GOAT is the person who has attained the very highest peak ability in star craft ever. Jaedong would smoke Nada in his prime... it wouldn't even be close.
On December 14 2009 11:56 Orbifold wrote: GOAT is not determined by medal count... the GOAT is the person who has attained the very highest peak ability in star craft ever. Jaedong would smoke Nada in his prime... it wouldn't even be close.
GOAT is normally a comparison of how far above the average pro any contender for that title is. Of course the most recent dominant player would be better than older dominant players, if they couldn't the older player would still be dominant. Your logic states who ever is playing best right now is the GOAT, even though that title should mean that there is a comparison between different time frames.
Greatest of All Time. "the most recent dominant player would be better than older dominant players, if they couldn't the older player would still be dominant." No, we're comparing peaks, or a stretch of domination, ofc. Age does tend to deteriorate gameplay. I'm not arguing for Jaedong as GOAT, but saying that it's about comparative skill to other gamers is ridiculous.
GOAT arguments are silly. There's always people who believe the GOAT should be based on peak skill, and there are those who say it's based on results. To me, NaDa is the GOAT, just because he could come back and win tournaments when no other oldschool player could.
Bisu has been sooooo inconsistent this month, he's gotten knocked out of both the MSL and the OSL before the round of 16, yet he is playing great in proleague; it doesn't make any sense, its almost as if he doesn't care about the starleagues.
Anyone else notice how not too long ago the question everyone was asking was is it JD or Bisu that is the GOAT/bonjwa? And a while before that a similar question was posed, "Is it JD or Flash?" and now... again that same question is being asked. I have a feeling that whoever is the "best" at the moment, he will most likely be compared with JD to see who's the best. That said, I think flash will beat JD, and that Bisu will be back sooner or later.
On December 15 2009 08:39 Warrior Madness wrote: Anyone else notice how not too long ago the question everyone was asking was is it JD or Bisu that is the GOAT/bonjwa? And a while before that a similar question was posed, "Is it JD or Flash?" and now... again that same question is being asked. I have a feeling that whoever is the "best" at the moment, he will most likely be compared with JD to see who's the best. That said, I think flash will beat JD, and that Bisu will be back sooner or later.
The common factor here is Jaedong, btw. It's almost always "Who's Jaedong's closest competition?" Jaedong is the bar that no one else has really passed, yet, and while the skill differential isn't as massive between Jaedong and his peers as it is between the past Bonjwas and their peers, Jaedong's taken that small differential and dominated the scene as hard or harder than the bonjwas.
If someone doesn't thoroughly and uncompromisingly dethrone him as truly his better/rival (Since Flash and Bisu and Stork only beat him in sparse displays and end up failing the overall scene that Jaedong dominates) then he'll probably go down as the last greatest player once BW fades off/gets replaced.
On December 15 2009 08:39 Warrior Madness wrote: Anyone else notice how not too long ago the question everyone was asking was is it JD or Bisu that is the GOAT/bonjwa? And a while before that a similar question was posed, "Is it JD or Flash?" and now... again that same question is being asked. I have a feeling that whoever is the "best" at the moment, he will most likely be compared with JD to see who's the best. That said, I think flash will beat JD, and that Bisu will be back sooner or later.
The common factor here is Jaedong, btw. It's almost always "Who's Jaedong's closest competition?" Jaedong is the bar that no one else has really passed, yet, and while the skill differential isn't as massive between Jaedong and his peers as it is between the past Bonjwas and their peers, Jaedong's taken that small differential and dominated the scene as hard or harder than the bonjwas.
If someone doesn't thoroughly and uncompromisingly dethrone him as truly his better/rival (Since Flash and Bisu and Stork only beat him in sparse displays and end up failing the overall scene that Jaedong dominates) then he'll probably go down as the last greatest player once BW fades off/gets replaced.
This is totally true, good thing Flash is going to smash him on Friday.
On December 15 2009 07:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: He's not playing "Great" in proleague. Beating Turn is fine and all but he's dropped games to Haksoo and Stork.
Both leagues down, mediocre performance in PL -- Bisu is looking like a slumper more and more.
I don`t know man, hes still 9-3 in PL, hardly what I would call mediocre especially considering his losses. Yeah hes loss vs Lux was bad, but his loss vs haksoo was a straight up BO loss (haksoo cut so many corners that game it was crazy, and Bisu played a pretty safe build that would leave him pretty secure vs anything but the type of build haksoo used, the equivalent of a 12h vs 9p) and while he did get soundly outplayed by Stork, Stork is his biggest rival and playing some of his finest StarCraft ever these days so no shame losing to him.
I know it sounds kind of lame with excuses like this, but really beside his bad play vs Shine and losing the shuttle like a retard vs Guemchi (in a game he a firm grip on until that) there ain`t much suggesting that his skills are deteriorating severely, on the bright side he dug himself out of some big holes vs Turn and CrazyHydra. Yeah hes not playing his best BW these days and are making some sloppy mistakes here and there, with the occasional BO loss also, but far from slumping or having worse mechanics or anything like that which would lower his skills. That`s not to say he shouldn't get a serious drop in the PR tho, because he should but I expect him to start raping shit again soon
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
see? stork's PvZ is beautiful, yet its his worst MU.
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
see? stork's PvZ is beautiful, yet its his worst MU.
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
see? stork's PvZ is beautiful, yet its his worst MU.
how is masszela beautiful? No, i dont think Stork's PvZ is beautiful, he usually just masses a tone of unit or/and expands a lot. Back in the day of andromeda he did cute corsair reaver into carrier stuff, nowadays i like him more than i used to previously, but not because his PvZ looks pretty.
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
see? stork's PvZ is beautiful, yet its his worst MU.
how is masszela beautiful? No, i dont think Stork's PvZ is beautiful, he usually just masses a tone of unit or/and expands a lot. Back in the day of andromeda he did cute corsair reaver into carrier stuff, nowadays i like him more than i used to previously, but not because his PvZ looks pretty.
On December 16 2009 00:52 Scorch wrote: Is he? How is he any better than Flash, Jaedong or Stork?
You could make an argument that he's better than Stork based on the still-in-both-leagues thing. That would make him #3 pretty much. And he might beat Stork head-to-head, too, although Stork's PvZ is beautiful atm.
see? stork's PvZ is beautiful, yet its his worst MU.
how is masszela beautiful? No, i dont think Stork's PvZ is beautiful, he usually just masses a tone of unit or/and expands a lot. Back in the day of andromeda he did cute corsair reaver into carrier stuff, nowadays i like him more than i used to previously, but not because his PvZ looks pretty.
well, it's efficient
Hes the new mantoss so he obviously needs to pwn face with manlots too.
On December 16 2009 22:24 SuperArc wrote: If CJ continues its run I say Skyhigh/Movie/Effort for PR!
Well effort is a given , even thought he loses a lot of ZvZ this days . Movie should probably make PR or CBNC at worse . Skyhigh has a long way to go ... unless winnersleague is coming and he rapes in it .
On December 16 2009 22:24 SuperArc wrote: If CJ continues its run I say Skyhigh/Movie/Effort for PR!
Well effort is a given , even thought he loses a lot of ZvZ this days . Movie should probably make PR or CBNC at worse . Skyhigh has a long way to go ... unless winnersleague is coming and he rapes in it .
true Skyhigh has only a chance if he continues his winning streak AND beats Sea
Looking forward to you having to drop Bisu way down. Out of both leagues before Ro16 -> GG. Then again, I guess I should expect him at 3. - 4. spot with a "Bisu's Bisu and Bisu is gud" ^_^
JD vs Flash Bo3 will most likely determine the #1 and #2 spots.
Wow, with the success Flash has had, if he continues his TvZ success, he could be #1 for a few months to come. He is quite the monster. Seriously, he has had ridiculous streaks in 2 of his matchups.
To be fair, if his streak lasted an entire season, then those two kind of coincide!
Shame there's almost no terrans in the MSL and none in the OSL. This is honestly looking like the hardest shot Flash has at a title because he has almost no way of playing his cinch match up.
On December 17 2009 13:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: To be fair, if his streak lasted an entire season, then those two kind of coincide!
Shame there's almost no terrans in the MSL and none in the OSL. This is honestly looking like the hardest shot Flash has at a title because he has almost no way of playing his cinch match up.
MSL is split as perfectly as it can get in regards to racial diversity so you can't really say one race is lacking or hardly any of one race exists.
On December 17 2009 13:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: To be fair, if his streak lasted an entire season, then those two kind of coincide!
Shame there's almost no terrans in the MSL and none in the OSL. This is honestly looking like the hardest shot Flash has at a title because he has almost no way of playing his cinch match up.
If there was a reverse Power Rank Fantasy would be No1. 0-5 (one of the losses were to Killer XD) in December, out of both leagues, not even on SKT's Proleague Lineup... good times for Fantasy anti-fans! :D
jaedong is 16-2 in this last month and a half and flash is 24-3 in his last 2 month (flash had more games since he had to qualify ) flash lost to stork and best / hyun jaedong lost to savior and saint i'd say tomarrow games will be amz 2 of the best players while they are hot will play a bo3 oh man this will be so much fun
On December 17 2009 13:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: To be fair, if his streak lasted an entire season, then those two kind of coincide!
Shame there's almost no terrans in the MSL and none in the OSL. This is honestly looking like the hardest shot Flash has at a title because he has almost no way of playing his cinch match up.
MSL is split as perfectly as it can get in regards to racial diversity so you can't really say one race is lacking or hardly any of one race exists.
Insomuch as Canata and Bogus, two guys who'd be lucky to make it past Ro16, much less Ro8, are equally distributed. Basically, Flash has no chance of playing TvT in OSL and little chance of playing TvT in MSL because the terrans in MSL are kind of bad and will most likely get knocked out beforehand.
Light and Hwasin MIGHT make it far enough, but I doubt it since Hwasin's playing his bad match up and when was the last time Light broke Ro8 ?
On December 17 2009 13:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: To be fair, if his streak lasted an entire season, then those two kind of coincide!
Shame there's almost no terrans in the MSL and none in the OSL. This is honestly looking like the hardest shot Flash has at a title because he has almost no way of playing his cinch match up.
MSL is split as perfectly as it can get in regards to racial diversity so you can't really say one race is lacking or hardly any of one race exists.
Insomuch as Canata and Bogus, two guys who'd be lucky to make it past Ro16, much less Ro8, are equally distributed. Basically, Flash has no chance of playing TvT in OSL and little chance of playing TvT in MSL because the terrans in MSL are kind of bad and will most likely get knocked out beforehand.
Light and Hwasin MIGHT make it far enough, but I doubt it since Hwasin's playing his bad match up and when was the last time Light broke Ro8 ?
as a member of my anti-team fantasy is earning me more points than half of my team members
On December 18 2009 06:08 DreaM)XeRO wrote: isn't it funny how when each of the "greats" went on a ridiculous tear in the PL/SL's their marquee matchup was their mirror MU?
BeST's best MU during his Incruit run was his PvP Jaedong's best MU (well. JvZ) was his ZvZ Bisu had some crazy 70% win rate PvP
and now Flash as he takes on both SL's is a TvT MONSTER interesting
That's actually pretty good observation. All of them dominated (or still dominate) their mirror match-up.
But Flash going 19-0 in official games with the last loss to Hyia in May is insane.
On December 18 2009 06:08 DreaM)XeRO wrote: isn't it funny how when each of the "greats" went on a ridiculous tear in the PL/SL's their marquee matchup was their mirror MU?
BeST's best MU during his Incruit run was his PvP Jaedong's best MU (well. JvZ) was his ZvZ Bisu had some crazy 70% win rate PvP
and now Flash as he takes on both SL's is a TvT MONSTER interesting
That's actually pretty good observation. All of them dominated (or still dominate) their mirror match-up.
But Flash going 19-0 in official games with the last loss to Hyia in May is insane.
No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
On December 18 2009 11:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
KeSPA isn’t saying anything about Flash’s streaks — the newsmakers are saying. :D
Flash has this "19" win streak only in selected, not in sanctioned games. For this streak count PL, Starleague, and MSL were just selected — for the good hot news.
On December 18 2009 11:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
KeSPA isn’t saying anything about Flash’s streaks — the newsmakers are saying. :D
Flash has this "19" win streak only in selected, not in sanctioned games. For this streak count PL, Starleague, and MSL were just selected — for the good hot news.
You're completely uninformed. There is past precedent for what counts and what does not count towards streak records.
If they were cherry-picking the 'good news', by the way, Flash would have had a 19 game TvZ streak. He does in TLPD, go check.
On December 18 2009 13:19 nonduc wrote: Hinanawi, please, tell me where I can find sources to be as "informed" as you are. :D May be these sources are your dreams, aren’t they?
I like to assume the best from people, but I guess I'll have to directly link TLPD for you.
Now, if the Starcraft Illuminati were trying to artificially create good streaks for Flash, wouldn't they have used the same standards TLPD does? There was a long time where Flash's TLPD-standard streaks were more impressive than his Kespa-standard streaks, yet they didn't use them.
They havn’t used the same "standards" TLPD does, because 1) TLPD is unknown in Korea — and rightly so with 2) TLPD "standards" are too unstandard for use, they are simply contradictory.
Oh, and these profound questions, conjectures and hypotheses are the sources of your "well-informed" knowledge?
On December 18 2009 14:23 nonduc wrote: They havn’t used the same "standards" TLPD does, because 1) TLPD is unknown in Korea — and rightly so with 2) TLPD "standards" are too unstandard for use, they are simply contradictory.
Oh, and these profound questions, conjectures and hypotheses are the sources of your "well-informed" knowledge?
I'm honestly not entirely sure what you're trying to say, here. Do you want Flash's game against Savior where he nuked himself to count? Or is it PL Allstars that you want to count? Or GOM? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm genuinely confused as to what you're even trying to argue.
On December 18 2009 06:08 DreaM)XeRO wrote: isn't it funny how when each of the "greats" went on a ridiculous tear in the PL/SL's their marquee matchup was their mirror MU?
BeST's best MU during his Incruit run was his PvP Jaedong's best MU (well. JvZ) was his ZvZ Bisu had some crazy 70% win rate PvP
and now Flash as he takes on both SL's is a TvT MONSTER interesting
That's actually pretty good observation. All of them dominated (or still dominate) their mirror match-up.
But Flash going 19-0 in official games with the last loss to Hyia in May is insane.
What I meant is the game that KeSPA counts when creating the ranking. Proleague show matches were KeSPA sanctioned (like WCG Korea) but they don't count. Otherwise Flash streak against Zerg would have been 16 not 12.
Lebesgue, WCG Korea ISN’T KeSPA sanctioned tournament. And Proleague show matches weren’t KeSPA sanctioned too. A reliable sign of sanktioning — a judging of KeSPA referee. The last sanctioned game vs zerg before the SPL 09-10 was the game vs Kwanro in the Avalon MSL. The Flash’s winning streaks vs zergs in sanctioned games and in all games (sanctioned & non-sanctioned) are pretty the same.
Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster.
On December 19 2009 16:15 Djabanete wrote: Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster. Flash is a monster.
On December 18 2009 11:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
KeSPA isn’t saying anything about Flash’s streaks — the newsmakers are saying. :D
Flash has this "19" win streak only in selected, not in sanctioned games. For this streak count PL, Starleague, and MSL were just selected — for the good hot news.
On December 18 2009 14:23 nonduc wrote: They havn’t used the same "standards" TLPD does, because 1) TLPD is unknown in Korea — and rightly so with 2) TLPD "standards" are too unstandard for use, they are simply contradictory.
Oh, and these profound questions, conjectures and hypotheses are the sources of your "well-informed" knowledge?
WTF IS THIS LOL Flash was clearly fucking around in the game against savior in the all star and even said so in his chat, not that a loss to savior is embarrassing or anything. And just because it may have a loss here and there doesn't mean that all those win are any less impressive. MSL is MBC "Starleague" as well idiot, OSL isn't the official "Starleague". And there is nothing as important as Proleague, OSL and MSL. Ultimate PL and STX Masters are nothing tournaments. Just look at how the brackets were set up.
If flash doesn't get the top two spots, one for his TvT and one for his TvZ (his TvP is still 65% btw which is also insane and only looks bad in comparison to his TvT which is a ridiculous 73.21%) January's power rank will be a travesty. I would put his TvT at first because he lost to hyun. I forget who the opponent was but did you see the game where his ridiculous macro had him marching like 7 groups of m&m around the map, shitting on ultras without irradiate? Did you see him trash the shit out of Jaedong just one day ago? This is JAEDONG! Although he hasn't looked as invincible this season as he did last, he's still arguably the best player in the world (which is also justified by his World Cyber Games win). This is the Jaedong that had a Chinese fangirl tell him that she likes him and his answer was a suave "Thank you" in English AND Chinese. Let that sink in for a second before you contemplate how flash denied a 3rd (not a 4th, a 3rd) gas, forcing Jaedong to go hive off 2 gas because he was unable to do anything else. Even his mutas were only able to get about 1 scv kill before leaving flash's base either dead or heavily damaged.
On December 18 2009 11:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
KeSPA isn’t saying anything about Flash’s streaks — the newsmakers are saying. :D
Flash has this "19" win streak only in selected, not in sanctioned games. For this streak count PL, Starleague, and MSL were just selected — for the good hot news.
On December 18 2009 14:23 nonduc wrote: They havn’t used the same "standards" TLPD does, because 1) TLPD is unknown in Korea — and rightly so with 2) TLPD "standards" are too unstandard for use, they are simply contradictory.
Oh, and these profound questions, conjectures and hypotheses are the sources of your "well-informed" knowledge?
WTF IS THIS LOL Flash was clearly fucking around in the game against savior in the all star and even said so in his chat, not that a loss to savior is embarrassing or anything. And just because it may have a loss here and there doesn't mean that all those win are any less impressive. MSL is MBC "Starleague" as well idiot, OSL isn't the official "Starleague". And there is nothing as important as Proleague, OSL and MSL. Ultimate PL and STX Masters are nothing tournaments. Just look at how the brackets were set up.
If flash doesn't get the top two spots, one for his TvT and one for his TvZ (his TvP is still 65% btw which is also insane and only looks bad in comparison to his TvT which is a ridiculous 73.21%) January's power rank will be a travesty. I would put his TvT at first because he lost to hyun. I forget who the opponent was but did you see the game where his ridiculous macro had him marching like 7 groups of m&m around the map, shitting on ultras without irradiate? Did you see him trash the shit out of Jaedong just one day ago? This is JAEDONG! Although he hasn't looked as invincible this season as he did last, he's still arguably the best player in the world (which is also justified by his World Cyber Games win). This is the Jaedong that had a Chinese fangirl tell him that she likes him and his answer was a suave "Thank you" in English AND Chinese. Let that sink in for a second before you contemplate how flash denied a 3rd (not a 4th, a 3rd) gas, forcing Jaedong to go hive off 2 gas because he was unable to do anything else. Even his mutas were only able to get about 1 scv kill before leaving flash's base either dead or heavily damaged.
Flash's vP win rate this year is 57.58%. That's damn alarming for Flash fans. Even if he beats Jaedong, his wins are far from sure since MSL has tons of good protoss and OSL still has Stork.
atm Flash is the god of TvT and TvZ, but his TvP (3-11 against the former dragons) is lacking. It's also the only reason not everyone says Flash is bonjwa or stuff like that.
On December 18 2009 11:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it was not sanctioned for creditable wins and losses. Otherwise KESPA wouldn't be saying Flash had a 19 win streak, considering his loss to Sea in that tournament.
It's in the same boat as STX masters and the map tests -- showmatches, nothing more.
KeSPA isn’t saying anything about Flash’s streaks — the newsmakers are saying. :D
Flash has this "19" win streak only in selected, not in sanctioned games. For this streak count PL, Starleague, and MSL were just selected — for the good hot news.
On December 18 2009 14:23 nonduc wrote: They havn’t used the same "standards" TLPD does, because 1) TLPD is unknown in Korea — and rightly so with 2) TLPD "standards" are too unstandard for use, they are simply contradictory.
Oh, and these profound questions, conjectures and hypotheses are the sources of your "well-informed" knowledge?
WTF IS THIS LOL Flash was clearly fucking around in the game against savior in the all star and even said so in his chat, not that a loss to savior is embarrassing or anything. And just because it may have a loss here and there doesn't mean that all those win are any less impressive. MSL is MBC "Starleague" as well idiot, OSL isn't the official "Starleague". And there is nothing as important as Proleague, OSL and MSL. Ultimate PL and STX Masters are nothing tournaments. Just look at how the brackets were set up.
If flash doesn't get the top two spots, one for his TvT and one for his TvZ (his TvP is still 65% btw which is also insane and only looks bad in comparison to his TvT which is a ridiculous 73.21%) January's power rank will be a travesty. I would put his TvT at first because he lost to hyun. I forget who the opponent was but did you see the game where his ridiculous macro had him marching like 7 groups of m&m around the map, shitting on ultras without irradiate? Did you see him trash the shit out of Jaedong just one day ago? This is JAEDONG! Although he hasn't looked as invincible this season as he did last, he's still arguably the best player in the world (which is also justified by his World Cyber Games win). This is the Jaedong that had a Chinese fangirl tell him that she likes him and his answer was a suave "Thank you" in English AND Chinese. Let that sink in for a second before you contemplate how flash denied a 3rd (not a 4th, a 3rd) gas, forcing Jaedong to go hive off 2 gas because he was unable to do anything else. Even his mutas were only able to get about 1 scv kill before leaving flash's base either dead or heavily damaged.
Flash's vP win rate this year is 57.58%. That's damn alarming for Flash fans. Even if he beats Jaedong, his wins are far from sure since MSL has tons of good protoss and OSL still has Stork.
atm Flash is the god of TvT and TvZ, but his TvP (3-11 against the former dragons) is lacking. It's also the only reason not everyone says Flash is bonjwa or stuff like that.
But the good thing is that Flash is fully aware of this and he claims in the interviews that he is really working on his TvP. I hope he will manage to fix it to become all-round monster.
Also, I think these days there are no Terrans who are able to keep high percentage against Protoss. Fantasy and Hyia were doing alright for some time but not anymore this season (+WCG).
57.58% is pretty darn good when you consider that TvP is nigh impossible to play. Arbiters are the most imbalanced units ever. There was a recent game where the terran had a huge army (I think it was darkelf vs best) and at the end, darkelf's huge, fully upgraded, well positioned army was nullified by 5 arbiters that stasised the entire thing. Recall is also ridiculously overpowered. How can you play a game when your army has like no mobility and you have to worry about half the protoss army killing your supply depots and factory while you are only halfway to their expansion? Even if you put up turrets and mines, you can't cover your entire base.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi only if he will play like he used to have. Best maybe. Kal, I don't think so.
doesn't look so bad to me. flash played a good series against bisu in gom1 and played ok in wcg. lost to much in winners league, that was child labor terran era if ever anything was. lost to best at the height of best's skill and now again when best is moving back up near the PR. (he also simply has a poor record against best.) lost to stork recently, that was a good game and stork prepared a spectacular strategy for it. the gom series against shuttle was spectacular. i don't know much about the games against kal.or jangbi but betting against flash in a bo5 right now would be entirely stupid
doesn't look so bad to me. flash played a good series against bisu in gom1 and played ok in wcg. lost to much in winners league, that was child labor terran era if ever anything was. lost to best at the height of best's skill and now again when best is moving back up near the PR. (he also simply has a poor record against best.) lost to stork recently, that was a good game and stork prepared a spectacular strategy for it. the gom series against shuttle was spectacular. i don't know much about the games against kal.or jangbi but betting against flash in a bo5 right now would be entirely stupid
Flash lost to Jangbi in the infamous match against Samsung where he went 2:0 against Stork and Jangbi. But Jangbi played near perfect game that time.
I agree that Flash TvP doesn't look that bad. But it is not at the level of his TvT ot TvZ. It is till rock solid though and I think he has a fair chance against any of the top PvTer these days.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi only if he will play like he used to have. Best maybe. Kal, I don't think so.
Agree. Best would probably do a good job but jangbi and kal aren't even close to being worthy of the 6 dragons name anymore.
doesn't look so bad to me. flash played a good series against bisu in gom1 and played ok in wcg. lost to much in winners league, that was child labor terran era if ever anything was. lost to best at the height of best's skill and now again when best is moving back up near the PR. (he also simply has a poor record against best.) lost to stork recently, that was a good game and stork prepared a spectacular strategy for it. the gom series against shuttle was spectacular. i don't know much about the games against kal.or jangbi but betting against flash in a bo5 right now would be entirely stupid
Flash lost to Jangbi in the infamous match against Samsung where he went 2:0 against Stork and Jangbi. But Jangbi played near perfect game that time.
I agree that Flash TvP doesn't look that bad. But it is not at the level of his TvT ot TvZ. It is till rock solid though and I think he has a fair chance against any of the top PvTer these days.
Anyway, that's all just speculations.
oh right. was jangbi the carriers on destination or was that stork?
doesn't look so bad to me. flash played a good series against bisu in gom1 and played ok in wcg. lost to much in winners league, that was child labor terran era if ever anything was. lost to best at the height of best's skill and now again when best is moving back up near the PR. (he also simply has a poor record against best.) lost to stork recently, that was a good game and stork prepared a spectacular strategy for it. the gom series against shuttle was spectacular. i don't know much about the games against kal.or jangbi but betting against flash in a bo5 right now would be entirely stupid
Flash lost to Jangbi in the infamous match against Samsung where he went 2:0 against Stork and Jangbi. But Jangbi played near perfect game that time.
I agree that Flash TvP doesn't look that bad. But it is not at the level of his TvT ot TvZ. It is till rock solid though and I think he has a fair chance against any of the top PvTer these days.
Anyway, that's all just speculations.
oh right. was jangbi the carriers on destination or was that stork?
it was jangbi and it was more the storms that sealed the win than the carriers
the main problem with figuring out flash's TvP skill is that he's played very few TvPs this year...
though he has been failing to beat the S-class TvPers this year, which is "disturbing" (lol) compared to last year at least [beating stork jangbi bisu a lot of times....]
doesn't look so bad to me. flash played a good series against bisu in gom1 and played ok in wcg. lost to much in winners league, that was child labor terran era if ever anything was. lost to best at the height of best's skill and now again when best is moving back up near the PR. (he also simply has a poor record against best.) lost to stork recently, that was a good game and stork prepared a spectacular strategy for it. the gom series against shuttle was spectacular. i don't know much about the games against kal.or jangbi but betting against flash in a bo5 right now would be entirely stupid
Flash lost to Jangbi in the infamous match against Samsung where he went 2:0 against Stork and Jangbi. But Jangbi played near perfect game that time.
I agree that Flash TvP doesn't look that bad. But it is not at the level of his TvT ot TvZ. It is till rock solid though and I think he has a fair chance against any of the top PvTer these days.
Anyway, that's all just speculations.
oh right. was jangbi the carriers on destination or was that stork?
Against Stork was on outsider. Against Jangbi was the desti with carriers. What stopped Flash were some amazing stroms. Jangbi had a shuttle full of hts when Flash pushed to hit the timing window before carriers arrive and he make great use of them. This allowed him to transition nicely into carriers and then abuse their mobility...
If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
really won even after failing to kill a 12nex with a bunker rush
Jangbi really had to try hard to lose that game, it was a herculean struggle. His clutch stop-dragoons and arbiter-against-missile turret strategies went well with his dragoon minesweeping strategy and just barely managed to let him lose, but he almost accidentally won when he remembered that arbiters could stasis.
i dont know who mentioned it earlier but i find it funny that a mediocre zerg is starting to explode HYUN won his last 5 matches in proleague against Calmx2 stork free and for desert free wtf?? cnbc maybe
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
You complain about Arbiters? Guess what, recall actually helps you if you place mines all over your base (and why wouldn't you when they're free?) Stasis is not a problem if you spread out your tanks The cloak? Terrans nowadays at least have 3 scans in mid game. Thats like infinite maphack and its more than enough to last you till Vessel
PvT is not imbalanced. Its the most goddamn balanced non mirror matchup. If anything is imba, its TvZ.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
You complain about Arbiters? Guess what, recall actually helps you if you place mines all over your base (and why wouldn't you when they're free?) Stasis is not a problem if you spread out your tanks The cloak? Terrans nowadays at least have 3 scans in mid game. Thats like infinite maphack and its more than enough to last you till Vessel
PvT is not imbalanced. Its the most goddamn balanced non mirror matchup. If anything is imba, its TvZ.
Why would you recall onto mines when you have an observer in their base checking factory count and able to see much of their base, if not the whole thing? And it's impossible to have enough mines to harrass and cover your front without putting a shitload in your base, not to mention the apm it takes to do it. Recall is pretty much the most imba thing except maybe dark swarm, if you didn't suck you wouldn't recall onto mines. Spreading tanks is not easy to do either when you're rushing out, trying to get as close to their expansions or whatever as possible without getting totally caught out of positions without any mines in front. Oh what? An errant mine can rape the shit out of half your vultures and heavily damage your tanks? 8 storms from 4 templars in a shuttle can decimate your tank count?
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 25%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
Flash is in godmode in TvZ and TvT, but not in TvP. He even said he has problems with TvP in PRACTICE which means his televised TvPs will be even worse.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
Flash is in godmode in TvZ and TvT, but not in TvP. He even said he has problems with TvP in PRACTICE which means his televised TvPs will be even worse.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
Flash is in godmode in TvZ and TvT, but not in TvP. He even said he has problems with TvP in PRACTICE which means his televised TvPs will be even worse.
i think you messed up sg. He said, at least i read that, he wasnt doing that well in televised TvPs, so he's gonna PRACTICE to change that. Same words, differnet order.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
Flash is in godmode in TvZ and TvT, but not in TvP. He even said he has problems with TvP in PRACTICE which means his televised TvPs will be even worse.
i think you messed up sg. He said, at least i read that, he wasnt doing that well in televised TvPs, so he's gonna PRACTICE to change that. Same words, differnet order.
took me ages to find, but finally
Your TvP seems weak compared to your almost perfect TvZ and TvT. How will you improve? - Honestly, as I prepared for the game against (P)BeSt, I thought I was gonna lose. I didn't play TvP for months, played against (P)DaezanG, and then didn't play again for a while. I lost a lot during practice and felt frustrated. At practice and during game I was discouraged by myself. If I have other chances I'll try to do well.
On December 20 2009 04:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Flash will tear apart the SLs if JD does not stop them. Statistics aside Stork is the only protoss in the SLs who would beat him in bo5.
you seriously underestimate Kal, Best and Jangbi then.
Jangbi? Are you talking about that guy who has liek 40% winrate for the past 4 months or so? Best? Ah, maybe, he's definetly good at taking single games from Flash, and his style is good against him, but in bo5 he'd loose imo Kal? Dont make me laugh.
I'm not a Flash fan by any means, actually ppl called me hater and anti-fan befor, and truth to be told i dont like Flash at all. But he's crazy good.
You missed some important stats here In 2009 Jangbi vT 21 wins - 11 losses (65.63%) Record vs flash in 09 1-0 Best vT 15 wins - 9 losses (62.50%) Record vs Flash in 09 2-0 Kal vT 16 wins - 10 losses (61.54%) Record vs Flash in 09 1-1
Flash vP 19 wins - 14 losses (57.58%) Record vs dragons in 09 4-12( yes a whooping 33%)
It wont be an easy road for Flash at all unless JD manages to eliminate the dragons early on for him. Who cares if Flash is godlike vs chobo tosses, he hasnt been pulling his weight vs Dragons at all.
you just take stats. Flash is in godmode, Jangbi is slumping. Right now Jangbi could be 100000-0 stat wise against Flash, he'd still be the underdog if they meet. We are at the end of 2009 and you take the whole year. ~10 months ago Jangbi looked good, there were maps which arent now, Flash looked like he burnt out. Best has a good shot against Flash, and some might even favor Stork over Flash, but the other players are underdogs (not counting Bisu, he's out of the SLs)
Flash is in godmode in TvZ and TvT, but not in TvP. He even said he has problems with TvP in PRACTICE which means his televised TvPs will be even worse.
i think you messed up sg. He said, at least i read that, he wasnt doing that well in televised TvPs, so he's gonna PRACTICE to change that. Same words, differnet order.
Your TvP seems weak compared to your almost perfect TvZ and TvT. How will you improve? - Honestly, as I prepared for the game against (P)BeSt, I thought I was gonna lose. I didn't play TvP for months, played against (P)DaezanG, and then didn't play again for a while. I lost a lot during practice and felt frustrated. At practice and during game I was discouraged by myself. If I have other chances I'll try to do well.
ok, hands down, but that's not the one i was talking about, i guess he spoke about his TvP in more than one interviews. Though i dont have the time to look it up, but i apreaciate your work.
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
You complain about Arbiters? Guess what, recall actually helps you if you place mines all over your base (and why wouldn't you when they're free?) Stasis is not a problem if you spread out your tanks The cloak? Terrans nowadays at least have 3 scans in mid game. Thats like infinite maphack and its more than enough to last you till Vessel
PvT is not imbalanced. Its the most goddamn balanced non mirror matchup. If anything is imba, its TvZ.
Why would you recall onto mines when you have an observer in their base checking factory count and able to see much of their base, if not the whole thing? And it's impossible to have enough mines to harrass and cover your front without putting a shitload in your base, not to mention the apm it takes to do it. Recall is pretty much the most imba thing except maybe dark swarm, if you didn't suck you wouldn't recall onto mines. Spreading tanks is not easy to do either when you're rushing out, trying to get as close to their expansions or whatever as possible without getting totally caught out of positions without any mines in front. Oh what? An errant mine can rape the shit out of half your vultures and heavily damage your tanks? 8 storms from 4 templars in a shuttle can decimate your tank count?
I feel like luckyfool.
So if Protoss sees the mines with their observer, then like you said, they're not going to use recall because of them. Your first statement contradicts the argument below it. You really think its impossible to have enough mines to harrass and cover your front and put them in base? Do you know how many mines come with each cheap 75 mineral imbaultrue? No, not 1, not 2, THREE mines. For each frigging vulture. Thats MORE than enough. Fuck, it will even probably cover all the Iccup maps combined lol.
You have no excuse to not clump your tanks. You claim its "hard", but anything in Starcraft is hard if you want to prevent your enemy from using a spell. Moving hydras back and forth because of storm, unclumping your sairs because of plague, making sure EMP doesn't hit slowwwww HTs, etc.
Only beginner Terrans whine about Dark swarm, how easy is it to stim + run out of the swarm area? Dark swarm on Nat? Oh stop complaining, you guys can lift CC and move your workers easier because enemy zerg units don't do ranged damage (harder to hit a train line of workers with units that are melee) Protoss should be the one to complain about Dark Swarm, they can't lift their nexus and their cannons are useless
Don't EVEN complain about a mine doing splash to your army, if that didn't happen, Terran army would absolutely rape alot more than it already does with its insane upgrades. If you don't like it so much, try putting mines far away from your tanks maybe?
Try playing terran before you say anything please lolol
No it doesn't contradict because you don't have mines everywhere, there's always going to be an empty space for recall to fall, only a beginner would recall on mines. If spreading tanks and mining is as easy as you say, then why are pro gamers unable to do it well, never mind beginner terrans. No one was 'whining' about dark swarm, I merely stated a fact.
Having observers is like having infinite maphack. Just two observers, one for watching fact count and one for watching push timing, is enough to win you the game. Oh what? They're cloaked AND they last forever instead for a few seconds? Oh you can move them instead of guessing where to scan? Huh, how convenient.
PvT is massively imbalanced in favor of protoss, don't make me laugh.
On December 20 2009 15:42 pvzvt wrote: i dont know who mentioned it earlier but i find it funny that a mediocre zerg is starting to explode HYUN won his last 5 matches in proleague against Calmx2 stork free and for desert free wtf?? cnbc maybe
And you missed the end-of-streak beating of Flash?
On December 20 2009 15:42 pvzvt wrote: i dont know who mentioned it earlier but i find it funny that a mediocre zerg is starting to explode HYUN won his last 5 matches in proleague against Calmx2 stork free and for desert free wtf?? cnbc maybe
And you missed the end-of-streak beating of Flash?
On December 20 2009 07:58 Hinanawi wrote: If there was a Terran who had awesome TvP right now and was ripping Protosses apart, then it might be fair to say that Flash's TvP is lacking.
But at the moment, we don't know if it's not just because PvT is seriously fucking imba lately. NOBODY is posting consistent good results against good Protosses playing as Terran right now. There's just nothing T can do if P gets 4-5 arbiters and makes sure not to clump them together.
I'll believe Really's TvP is for real when he doesn't only have 1 impressive win in there (against Kal). Notice his abysmal performances against Bisu/BeSt/free/Jangbi. Also 52.94% lol.
In fact, he's facing Jangbi tonight. If he can win against arbiter gayness, then Really might be for real and Flash could learn a thing or two from him. We'll see, I suppose.
You complain about Arbiters? Guess what, recall actually helps you if you place mines all over your base (and why wouldn't you when they're free?) Stasis is not a problem if you spread out your tanks The cloak? Terrans nowadays at least have 3 scans in mid game. Thats like infinite maphack and its more than enough to last you till Vessel
PvT is not imbalanced. Its the most goddamn balanced non mirror matchup. If anything is imba, its TvZ.
Why would you recall onto mines when you have an observer in their base checking factory count and able to see much of their base, if not the whole thing? And it's impossible to have enough mines to harrass and cover your front without putting a shitload in your base, not to mention the apm it takes to do it. Recall is pretty much the most imba thing except maybe dark swarm, if you didn't suck you wouldn't recall onto mines. Spreading tanks is not easy to do either when you're rushing out, trying to get as close to their expansions or whatever as possible without getting totally caught out of positions without any mines in front. Oh what? An errant mine can rape the shit out of half your vultures and heavily damage your tanks? 8 storms from 4 templars in a shuttle can decimate your tank count?
I feel like luckyfool.
Only beginner Terrans whine about Dark swarm, how easy is it to stim + run out of the swarm area? Dark swarm on Nat? Oh stop complaining, you guys can lift CC and move your workers easier because enemy zerg units don't do ranged damage (harder to hit a train line of workers with units that are melee) Protoss should be the one to complain about Dark Swarm, they can't lift their nexus and their cannons are useless
lol stop being a beginner and build some reavers. All it takes is pressing R a few times... much easier than laying 30 mines to stop a recall.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Try playing terran before you say anything please lolol
No it doesn't contradict because you don't have mines everywhere, there's always going to be an empty space for recall to fall, only a beginner would recall on mines. If spreading tanks and mining is as easy as you say, then why are pro gamers unable to do it well, never mind beginner terrans. No one was 'whining' about dark swarm, I merely stated a fact.
First of all, you're suppose to scan + clear out observers in your base at that late in the game when recall is available. When you have an infinite number of mines, covering your base is not that resource demanding because its free. APM demanding? Drag Group + Press i. Repeat. (thats easier than 1a2a3a). I agree that while there might often be some* small space where your base isn't covered by mines, its really the Terran player's fault for letting that happen. Just because pro gamers don't do it everytime doesn't mean its not easy. For example, Savior forgot to upgrade ling attack. Everyone knows you're suppose to do it. Its very easy, just click pool and press a. So because Progamer like Savior wasn't able to do it, its not easy? Pros forget to do a lot of basic things. Thats because they're only human. Just because the Terran pros that YOU watch don't spread tanks and place mines in base doesn't mean its too hard for them to do it. Sometimes people can just forget to do the most basic stuff.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Having observers is like having infinite maphack. Just two observers, one for watching fact count and one for watching push timing, is enough to win you the game. Oh what? They're cloaked AND they last forever instead for a few seconds? Oh you can move them instead of guessing where to scan? Huh, how convenient.
PvT is massively imbalanced in favor of protoss, don't make me laugh.
Okay, this is dumb. You're complaining that observers are maphack when Terrans have scan? 3 CC with scan = you can see anything, anywhere, anytime. At least observers are limited to their range and they can be destroyed. It makes me sick that a Terran player that has scan are actually complaining about observers.....at least observers require a building, and research, take up supply, and it takes TIME to use them. You're complaining about where to scan? lol so spoiled, don't worry, you can practically scan the entire map with multiple scanners.
EDIT: PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.
Ya try it and tell me how it goes because I've played tvp and pvt and pvt is much, much easier. Your one anecdote about savior forgetting to get an upgrade one time is the same thing as pros being unable to mine their base because they're busy using their mines to push or whatever and it's hard to push and put up base defense while macroing and expoing and everything else. Oh wait no it's not. Just because you can describe it quickly when you type it doesn't make it easy you buffoon.
TvP is not balanced because for most of the game, the Protoss dictates the pace. Terran only has a few timing windows and they're become very hard to exploit because protoss players have the timings down so well.
''PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.''
Bullshit. If we take stats from this seasons WCG Korea, OSL, MSL and PL we get roughly a 60% winrate for Protoss. Flash, who is raping all Zergs and Terrans out there, is failing against Toss. Nerf arbiters I say.
On December 21 2009 21:46 Holgerius wrote: ''PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.''
Bullshit. If we take stats from this seasons WCG Korea, OSL, MSL and PL we get roughly a 60% winrate for Protoss. Flash, who is raping all Zergs and Terrans out there, is failing against Toss. Nerf arbiters I say.
I dont really think arbiters alone are the problem, its the combination of stasis and storm that destroys every terran army.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Try playing terran before you say anything please lolol
No it doesn't contradict because you don't have mines everywhere, there's always going to be an empty space for recall to fall, only a beginner would recall on mines. If spreading tanks and mining is as easy as you say, then why are pro gamers unable to do it well, never mind beginner terrans. No one was 'whining' about dark swarm, I merely stated a fact.
First of all, you're suppose to scan + clear out observers in your base at that late in the game when recall is available. When you have an infinite number of mines, covering your base is not that resource demanding because its free. APM demanding? Drag Group + Press i. Repeat. (thats easier than 1a2a3a). I agree that while there might often be some* small space where your base isn't covered by mines, its really the Terran player's fault for letting that happen. Just because pro gamers don't do it everytime doesn't mean its not easy. For example, Savior forgot to upgrade ling attack. Everyone knows you're suppose to do it. Its very easy, just click pool and press a. So because Progamer like Savior wasn't able to do it, its not easy? Pros forget to do a lot of basic things. Thats because they're only human. Just because the Terran pros that YOU watch don't spread tanks and place mines in base doesn't mean its too hard for them to do it. Sometimes people can just forget to do the most basic stuff.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Having observers is like having infinite maphack. Just two observers, one for watching fact count and one for watching push timing, is enough to win you the game. Oh what? They're cloaked AND they last forever instead for a few seconds? Oh you can move them instead of guessing where to scan? Huh, how convenient.
PvT is massively imbalanced in favor of protoss, don't make me laugh.
Okay, this is dumb. You're complaining that observers are maphack when Terrans have scan? 3 CC with scan = you can see anything, anywhere, anytime. At least observers are limited to their range and they can be destroyed. It makes me sick that a Terran player that has scan are actually complaining about observers.....at least observers require a building, and research, take up supply, and it takes TIME to use them. You're complaining about where to scan? lol so spoiled, don't worry, you can practically scan the entire map with multiple scanners.
EDIT: PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.
So let me compare scan to observer.
Scan requires a building. It has limited energy Scan last for a couple of seconds.
Observer also requires a building but takes that extra 1 food supply! It lasts forever. It is cloaked.
And what the fuck is that about time to use them. If anything scan requirs time to use it. You can just put your observer in the most common routes and see exactly where Terran army is and when Terran push is coming without moving your finger.
Isn't it crazy to think that for either Flash or Jaedong's win percentage to drop to a mere 60%, they would have to lose over 50 games in a row? That shows you how much they dominate that they would still have among the best winning percentages among progamers after that.
Flash is nearing 70%, and that's a pretty damn good achievement; I don't think anybody has been able to do that in a sample close to the 300+ games Flash has.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Try playing terran before you say anything please lolol
No it doesn't contradict because you don't have mines everywhere, there's always going to be an empty space for recall to fall, only a beginner would recall on mines. If spreading tanks and mining is as easy as you say, then why are pro gamers unable to do it well, never mind beginner terrans. No one was 'whining' about dark swarm, I merely stated a fact.
First of all, you're suppose to scan + clear out observers in your base at that late in the game when recall is available. When you have an infinite number of mines, covering your base is not that resource demanding because its free. APM demanding? Drag Group + Press i. Repeat. (thats easier than 1a2a3a). I agree that while there might often be some* small space where your base isn't covered by mines, its really the Terran player's fault for letting that happen. Just because pro gamers don't do it everytime doesn't mean its not easy. For example, Savior forgot to upgrade ling attack. Everyone knows you're suppose to do it. Its very easy, just click pool and press a. So because Progamer like Savior wasn't able to do it, its not easy? Pros forget to do a lot of basic things. Thats because they're only human. Just because the Terran pros that YOU watch don't spread tanks and place mines in base doesn't mean its too hard for them to do it. Sometimes people can just forget to do the most basic stuff.
On December 21 2009 10:39 ghostWriter wrote: Having observers is like having infinite maphack. Just two observers, one for watching fact count and one for watching push timing, is enough to win you the game. Oh what? They're cloaked AND they last forever instead for a few seconds? Oh you can move them instead of guessing where to scan? Huh, how convenient.
PvT is massively imbalanced in favor of protoss, don't make me laugh.
Okay, this is dumb. You're complaining that observers are maphack when Terrans have scan? 3 CC with scan = you can see anything, anywhere, anytime. At least observers are limited to their range and they can be destroyed. It makes me sick that a Terran player that has scan are actually complaining about observers.....at least observers require a building, and research, take up supply, and it takes TIME to use them. You're complaining about where to scan? lol so spoiled, don't worry, you can practically scan the entire map with multiple scanners.
EDIT: PvT is an actual balanced non mirror matchup, unlike TvZ.
And what the fuck is that about time to use them. If anything scan requirs time to use it. You can just put your observer in the most common routes and see exactly where Terran army is and when Terran push is coming without moving your finger.
In a TvP game where nowdays Macro fest is the norm, you will have lots of CCs. You'll have at least 3 scanners minimum. When you have that many scans, you don't need to wait for energy, just use it whenever and wherever
Protoss on the other hand, requires time to use observers because you need to move them across the map and observer building requires time. And Terrans will scan the common places in their own base to take out the observers. So a Protoss needs to keep pumping observers to compensate (which costs gas) and they need to waste time to make them and send them to T's base, while they keep getting taken out by turrets/scan
You use scan on a P's base and he can't do anything about it
On December 22 2009 01:52 SimonB wrote: Isn't it crazy to think that for either Flash or Jaedong's win percentage to drop to a mere 60%, they would have to lose over 50 games in a row? That shows you how much they dominate that they would still have among the best winning percentages among progamers after that.
Flash is nearing 70%, and that's a pretty damn good achievement; I don't think anybody has been able to do that in a sample close to the 300+ games Flash has.
Jaedong actually had a ~69.4% in I think slightly more games played at the start of July when he was unbeatable (and over-worked, so he started losing). Tweak the dates and you'll find it. Then he went down to 67.5% because of his zvz mini-slump. It's bound to happen to Flash soon, too. Retaining 70%+ on the pro level is unbelievably difficult.
Edit: hmm, I guess the added games skewed the percentage. When I checked 4-5 months ago, jaedong won 69.4% of his games. 243 wins - 109 losses (69.03%) That's the best I could find.
Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours
49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap
You're an idiot. Games that happened 8 years ago being included in the current metagame balance is just plain stupid. The most relevant large sample we can get is the recent proleague and starleague games.
As always, the imbalance lies in maps, and Arbiters have a fun time abusing terran positions through Recall or Stasis+Storm nowadays.
Just like it was in the olden days where Terrans stomped everyone because of all the terran favored maps (and, well, no one knowing correct macro/unit composition as well).
Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours
49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap
Who cares about historical stats? We're talking about PvT balance right NOW. And right now, there's every indication that TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror, with ZvP and PvT fighting for most imbalanced.
If you disagree, then let's take your logic and try applying it a bit.
Your position right now:
-Terran has a large advantage over Zerg -Zerg has an advantage over Protoss (but not as big as the TvZ advantage) -Protoss has no advantage over Terran
So basically, T >> Z > P = T
Well then hey, isn't it obvious that Proleague teams should send out 2 Terrans in their lineup? If the Terran runs into Zerg, they get a large advantage (the MOST imba matchup according to you!), if they run into another T it's even, and if they run into another P it's even! Zerg and Protoss can't compete with that, it's so obvious that we should send out two Terrans in Proleague!
Except that they don't. Zerg get the vast majority of double-slots in Proleague. If what you said was true, why would they do this? What about the super-Terrans with no weaknesses and huge advantages over Zerg players? It would be suicide! If anything, Zerg should be the LEAST likely race to get a double-slot in Proleague with your logic.
Proleague teams mostly send out double Zerg now, double Terran is MUCH less common. This means:
- They aren't as afraid of TvZ imba as they are of PvT imba. - They are happy to take advantage of ZvP imba without fear of being countered by TvZ.
But I mean hey, they're just pro-Starcraft coaches, what do they know? I'll be sure to send them a letter:
"AzureEye made an amazing discovery about race imbalance! You know how most teams are sending out double Zergs lately? All you have to do is send out double Terrans! Wham, bam, instant huge advantage since TvZ favors Terran so much and it doesn't matter if your Terrans run into Protosses, because PvT is like totally balanced!"
I mean holy shit man, it was so simple. How could all these pro-teams not have noticed how TvZ is the most imba non-mirror? They've been acting totally like it was the MOST balanced non-mirror this season, but now you can set them straight by showing them a list of medal winners dating back to the stone age.
The terrans just lack an "inventor". Flash's build only saved them from the uber carrier imba. I am sure many pros are looking up to Flash and his next few SL games when he finally has to meet protoss. They need a revolution like savior did in ZvT and Bisu in PvZ.
Terran: 49 golds, including 11 OSLs and 9 MSLs/KPGA Tours Protoss: 18 golds, including 8 OSLs and 4 MSLs/KPGA Tours
49 vs 18? Thats a HUGE gap
Who cares about historical stats? We're talking about PvT balance right NOW. And right now, there's every indication that TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror, with ZvP and PvT fighting for most imbalanced.
If you disagree, then let's take your logic and try applying it a bit.
Your position right now:
-Terran has a large advantage over Zerg -Zerg has an advantage over Protoss (but not as big as the TvZ advantage) -Protoss has no advantage over Terran
So basically, T >> Z > P = T
Well then hey, isn't it obvious that Proleague teams should send out 2 Terrans in their lineup? If the Terran runs into Zerg, they get a large advantage (the MOST imba matchup according to you!), if they run into another T it's even, and if they run into another P it's even! Zerg and Protoss can't compete with that, it's so obvious that we should send out two Terrans in Proleague!
Except that they don't. Zerg get the vast majority of double-slots in Proleague. If what you said was true, why would they do this? What about the super-Terrans with no weaknesses and huge advantages over Zerg players? It would be suicide! If anything, Zerg should be the LEAST likely race to get a double-slot in Proleague with your logic.
Proleague teams mostly send out double Zerg now, double Terran is MUCH less common. This means:
- They aren't as afraid of TvZ imba as they are of PvT imba. - They are happy to take advantage of ZvP imba without fear of being countered by TvZ.
But I mean hey, they're just pro-Starcraft coaches, what do they know? I'll be sure to send them a letter:
"AzureEye made an amazing discovery about race imbalance! You know how most teams are sending out double Zergs lately? All you have to do is send out double Terrans! Wham, bam, instant huge advantage since TvZ favors Terran so much and it doesn't matter if your Terrans run into Protosses, because PvT is like totally balanced!"
I mean holy shit man, it was so simple. How could all these pro-teams not have noticed how TvZ is the most imba non-mirror? They've been acting totally like it was the MOST balanced non-mirror this season, but now you can set them straight by showing them a list of medal winners dating back to the stone age.
Completely ignoring historical stats for the current metagame is foolish. The way metagame has evolved is because of what is was before. That being said, I agree that TvZ hasn't been as imba as before. But it still is, despite the Zerg season. The current Zerg season just shows how they just have 1 year of dominance compared to the 7+ years of Terran dominance. So TvZ isn't 100% imbalanced. Its only 86% imbalanced. Does that sound better to you?
Yeah my theory is T>Z>P = T but your argument fails to take account the skills of each player. No matter how much advantage one race has over another, individual player's skills matter a lot. This is why we don't see teams sending 2 Terrans, 1 Protoss, 1 Zerg. If you have Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, go.go., and Effort in 1 team, its common sense to use the two Zergs over the two Terrans. You also didn't factor in maps in your argument.
The fact that it took Zergs over 8 years to overcome TvZ slaughter just shows how much struggle they had to put up with to change the way it is played. And even with the "zerg season" Zergs don't dominate Terrans as bad as T's used to dominate Z's.
If you think TvZ is the most balanced non mirror matchup....you're out of your mind. Its PvT
Looking at a small sample size over a small window of duration is not a good way to analyze a matchup. For example, lets say that Kespa suddenly released a map where Terrans couldn't wall-in anymore in any way because the map was completely devoid of walls or terrain. And this map did not have gas in main, only gas was at nat. Lets pretend this so-called map was used for 1 season. Because Terrans couldn't wall-in and couldn't get early factory, they were forced to go MnM. As a result, Protoss would get storm or reaver mid-game and rape MnM.
Using your method, we would analyze PvT using the most "recent" metagame. Well, this metagame certainly shows Protoss won with a gruesome 85% win rate in PvT. Does this mean PvT is imba? No, it just means you looked at a small sample size and small duration of time, no matter how recent. You need to look at the bigger picture, because metagame will constantly evolve no matter what. Maps will change, players' skills will change, teams will change. For a game as complicated as this, there is no way you can analyze a matchup with just recent performance.
And early maps heavily favored Terrans, which is part of the massive terran domination over the years. If you really want to take map balance into the overall race balance of the game then T being equal to P is actually a signifier that P is > than T when all things are equal.
On December 22 2009 11:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: And early maps heavily favored Terrans, which is part of the massive terran domination over the years. If you really want to take map balance into the overall race balance of the game then T being equal to P is actually a signifier that P is > than T when all things are equal.
This is exactly why we cannot look at just a portion of the matchup history. If we looked at the period you talked about, we would assume that TvP is imba in favor of T. By looking at the bigger picture with different maps over time, we can see how balanced the actual matchup is.
On December 22 2009 11:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: And early maps heavily favored Terrans, which is part of the massive terran domination over the years. If you really want to take map balance into the overall race balance of the game then T being equal to P is actually a signifier that P is > than T when all things are equal.
This is exactly why we cannot look at just a portion of the matchup history. If we looked at the period you talked about, we would assume that TvP is imba in favor of T. By looking at the bigger picture with different maps over time, we can see how balanced the actual matchup is.
I'm sorry, we aren't talking about how the matchup is currently?
Sure, perhaps TvP is "balanced" in theory (and I suppose the long-term statistics show that.) But at this moment, Protoss have the advantage. Maybe it's meta-game, maybe it's new strategies, maybe it's the maps, maybe it's the players [Stork, Bisu, Best PvT > Flash, Fantasy TvP?] -- but they do.
On December 22 2009 13:37 aegisabcde wrote: lol AzureEye is probably just bad at his race's easy matchup so he has to dig up all these useless stats to show that Terran is overpowered.
...yet I'm the person here claiming that PvT/TvP is balanced? So because I'm probably bad at PvT I defend this matchup instead of whining about it? Where is the logic in what you say? I said Terrans are overpowered TvZ-wise but I don't even play Zerg
So because these stats are facts, they are useless right? Because they hurt your ego as a T player. Take off that drone icon, you don't deserve it
On December 22 2009 13:37 aegisabcde wrote: lol AzureEye is probably just bad at his race's easy matchup so he has to dig up all these useless stats to show that Terran is overpowered.
...yet I'm the person here claiming that PvT/TvP is balanced? So because I'm probably bad at PvT I defend this matchup instead of whining about it? Where is the logic in what you say? I said Terrans are overpowered TvZ-wise but I don't even play Zerg
So because these stats are facts, they are useless right? Because they hurt your ego as a T player. Take off that drone icon, you don't deserve it
No, he's saying because you're bad at PvT, you somehow think the matchup is balanced.
On December 22 2009 15:59 stormtemplar wrote: PvT is very like TvZ. We protoss try to not die from an epic terran doom-push and get arbiters/carriers and deal major damage for the win. You terrans try to doom push us with huge epic armies of death, and we do random **** and throw units at said blob to make it die. I think the current meta-game has the standard push coming to late to hit before air tech. You hit us with a doom army before we are ready and protoss just fall over and die.
ok this is off topic so I dont know why its up, but pvt is not imbalanced. I mean at the moment its favouring protoss more so than terran, but its not extreme. The all time win rates are like a 1% difference from each other, and even now its only like what, 5-6% in the last few months? Same deal with iccup. Sorry fellow terrans, your just being whiny. The pvt imbalance exists, to a degree, but its not really all that significant, especially when compared to the current pvz imbalance or historical tvz imbalances. Pvt has always been the most balanced of the so-called favoured match ups. Get your sand out of your vagina and stop arguing about it in the wrong thread.
On December 23 2009 03:11 stormtemplar wrote: PvT is easy? Do you know why there is a push breaking article? Because hell knows all the crap we have to do to make your freaking tanks die.
On December 23 2009 04:07 yhnmk wrote: ok this is off topic so I dont know why its up, but pvt is not imbalanced. I mean at the moment its favouring protoss more so than terran, but its not extreme. The all time win rates are like a 1% difference from each other, and even now its only like what, 5-6% in the last few months? Same deal with iccup. Sorry fellow terrans, your just being whiny. The pvt imbalance exists, to a degree, but its not really all that significant, especially when compared to the current pvz imbalance or historical tvz imbalances. Pvt has always been the most balanced of the so-called favoured match ups. Get your sand out of your vagina and stop arguing about it in the wrong thread.
- Your vT strength has been gaining some attention ▲ I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT. It's not that I'm particularly better than others at PvT, it's just the game results.
I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT
I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT
- Your vT strength has been gaining some attention ▲ I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT. It's not that I'm particularly better than others at PvT, it's just the game results.
I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT
Thats the closest thing a progamer has ever gotten to calling PvT imba. Thats because Best is so damn good at PvT himself. Calm actually said TvZ is imba in the interview, along with Chojja + Yellow
On December 23 2009 08:00 Hinanawi wrote: BeSt just served this up in his winner interview:
- Your vT strength has been gaining some attention ▲ I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT. It's not that I'm particularly better than others at PvT, it's just the game results.
I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT
I don't think there's any protoss player who thinks he's bad at PvT
Thats the closest thing a progamer has ever gotten to calling PvT imba. Thats because Best is so damn good at PvT himself. Calm actually said TvZ is imba in the interview, along with Chojja + Yellow
It's just that beyond a certain point, you can't actually "do" much more in PvT. Beyond your basic micro/macro, you can stasis well, you can storm well, you can hit timings, but the onus is really on the T player more than the P player to "win".
For example, in your standard 3base 2/1 push, most of the actions are done by the T player (e.g. where to push (to new base or to kill P?), how fast to push, EMPs) whereas all the P really does is pick a moment to pushbreak and execute at that moment (stasis, 1a2a3a, storm, rinse and repeat).
Or if the T is going vult heavy harass style, again, it's the P who has to play reactive. Basically, past the reaver/dt stage of the game, the P is reactive in the matchup, just waiting to have the macro necessary to break that critical T push.
On December 23 2009 14:27 AzureEye wrote: Calm actually said TvZ is imba in the interview
Funny he would say that right after winning an MSL with the following TvZ stats:
I feel for you Calm.
just looking at the strength of the zerg players in the tournament compared to the strength of the terrans in it(and also the large amount of terrans), it's easy to see how they all lost a lot of games.
It actually gives him much more legitimacy to say something like that when Zerg is doing well (for the first time) because otherwise, people would say he's just trying to excuse his losses to Terran.
Please play a proper ZvT game before you claim its not imba as well as a PvT game before you claim its imba.
On December 23 2009 17:57 SuperArc wrote: Wow if Zero gets double eliminated which is VERY likely to happen I think he can share #10 spot with Bisu.
also riptide has another easy month to rate.
top3 is so obvious.
This will make me seem really stupid, but who is #3? I would know but my computer can't connect to the internet so I have been playing Civ4 instead of watching SC.
And if you couldn't figure it out this isn't my computer.
On December 23 2009 17:57 SuperArc wrote: Wow if Zero gets double eliminated which is VERY likely to happen I think he can share #10 spot with Bisu.
also riptide has another easy month to rate.
top3 is so obvious.
This will make me seem really stupid, but who is #3? I would know but my computer can't connect to the internet so I have been playing Civ4 instead of watching SC.
And if you couldn't figure it out this isn't my computer.
Stork.
On December 24 2009 03:08 luckybeni2 wrote: If Stork makes it in the ro4 in the OSL I'd put him on rank 2
Only if JD gets eliminated in the MSL AND the OSL, otherwise it would make no sense since JD has a better record in December than Flash (but the bo3 will decide #1).
I would imagine that Stork's rank will depend heavily on how he does in his remaining OSL games against Shine. If he wins then rank #3 looks like a done deal, if he loses though (and being down a game this is certainly possible) then #3 will be a lot harder to fill (hard to hand that high a spot to someone out of both individual leagues).
On December 24 2009 04:28 Goragoth wrote: I would imagine that Stork's rank will depend heavily on how he does in his remaining OSL games against Shine. If he wins then rank #3 looks like a done deal, if he loses though (and being down a game this is certainly possible) then #3 will be a lot harder to fill (hard to hand that high a spot to someone out of both individual leagues).
well if stork loses against shine and calm beats Pure, #3 is Calm
if both lose, #3 will be damn hard to fill lol (my CJ fanboy says Movie!) :p
Stork is #1 in PL so in my opinion rank 3 should still go to him if he drops out of the OSL. This Month he's 6-1 in PL and 8-2 in all games and his wins were against the very best in the game (Flash, Bisu, Zero). There's simply noone close to the top 3 in the rest of the pack. By the way next month I believe we will see some drastical change and some new faces on the rank. Effort failed pretty badly and shouldnt be ranked higher than #7, Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Stork is #1 in PL so in my opinion rank 3 should still go to him if he drops out of the OSL. This Month he's 6-1 in PL and 8-2 in all games and his wins were against the very best in the game (Flash, Bisu, Zero). There's simply noone close to the top 3 in the rest of the pack.
calm is 8-1 with wins against zero and effort plus he'll probably still be in an individual league by the next PR
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Stork is #1 in PL so in my opinion rank 3 should still go to him if he drops out of the OSL. This Month he's 6-1 in PL and 8-2 in all games and his wins were against the very best in the game (Flash, Bisu, Zero). There's simply noone close to the top 3 in the rest of the pack.
calm is 8-1 with wins against zero and effort plus he'll probably still be in an individual league by the next PR
But most of his games were zvz and zero isnt great at it. And I think the quality of play from Stork this month so far is just one level above calms. I would probably say calm is #4 right now.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
what the HECK man? Bisu just "double-killed" Zerg and owned Reach. Kwanro > Turn and MSL games ahead. If he wins these, kwanro is LOCKED at #10. Fantasy will fall off though.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
what the HECK man? Bisu just "double-killed" Zerg and owned Reach. Kwanro > Turn and MSL games ahead. If he wins these, kwanro is LOCKED at #10. Fantasy will fall off though.
agreed. Kwanro can def hold onto the tenth spot if he turns around his msl series, if not, then no.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
what the HECK man? Bisu just "double-killed" Zerg and owned Reach. Kwanro > Turn and MSL games ahead. If he wins these, kwanro is LOCKED at #10. Fantasy will fall off though.
agreed. Kwanro can def hold onto the tenth spot if he turns around his msl series, if not, then no.
Even if he does there are many far better players than him that deserve it far more than him. Defeating Bogus is hardly enough to defend the spot against players like violet, kal and shine for example.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
what the HECK man? Bisu just "double-killed" Zerg and owned Reach. Kwanro > Turn and MSL games ahead. If he wins these, kwanro is LOCKED at #10. Fantasy will fall off though.
agreed. Kwanro can def hold onto the tenth spot if he turns around his msl series, if not, then no.
Even if he does there are many far better players than him that deserve it far more than him. Defeating Bogus is hardly enough to defend the spot against players like violet, kal and shine for example.
true but shine.. for me as bisu fan. i think he deserves TL-hate a lil bit longer.
On December 24 2009 07:29 luckybeni2 wrote: Bisu didnt shine very bright, too and Fantasy will almost definitly fall off as well as Kwanro.
what the HECK man? Bisu just "double-killed" Zerg and owned Reach. Kwanro > Turn and MSL games ahead. If he wins these, kwanro is LOCKED at #10. Fantasy will fall off though.
agreed. Kwanro can def hold onto the tenth spot if he turns around his msl series, if not, then no.
Even if he does there are many far better players than him that deserve it far more than him. Defeating Bogus is hardly enough to defend the spot against players like violet, kal and shine for example.
true but shine.. for me as bisu fan. i think he deserves TL-hate a lil bit longer.
Bisu got his revenge, let Shine, a guy who's had an enormously difficult run and performed well, have his PL spot.
On December 24 2009 20:43 SuperArc wrote: JD secured his #2 spot! Now its time to get that #1. >=)
Yeah I think spots 1 and 2 will be determined tonight. However Flash can still hold on to #1 even if he loses, it just depends on the way in which he loses. Don't forget he beat Jaedong very convincingly in game 1. If JD scrapes 2 wins I would still keep Flash at the top.
On December 24 2009 20:43 SuperArc wrote: JD secured his #2 spot! Now its time to get that #1. >=)
Yeah I think spots 1 and 2 will be determined tonight. However Flash can still hold on to #1 even if he loses, it just depends on the way in which he loses. Don't forget he beat Jaedong very convincingly in game 1. If JD scrapes 2 wins I would still keep Flash at the top.
If Flash loses there is no way he would be able to keep #1. It would put him to four losses against JD's one. Also JD would be in both leagues while Flash only in MSL.
Their bo3 really decides #1, the winner takes it all.
On December 25 2009 02:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wouldn't. If Jaedong wins, then he's a PL workhorse, and in both MSL and OSL. If Flash wins, he's in MSL and OSL as well as being a PL workhorse.
The difference between the two, after the match, is obviously that one player is truly dominant over the other and can go the distance this season.
It's true, but you can't ignore the way Flash totally dismantled Jaedong last week. Jaedong couldn't do a single thing and wasn't even able to get a 3rd gas. A rape of that magnitude against a top player like Jaedong is no laughing matter.
On December 24 2009 20:43 SuperArc wrote: JD secured his #2 spot! Now its time to get that #1. >=)
Yeah I think spots 1 and 2 will be determined tonight. However Flash can still hold on to #1 even if he loses, it just depends on the way in which he loses. Don't forget he beat Jaedong very convincingly in game 1. If JD scrapes 2 wins I would still keep Flash at the top.
If Flash loses there is no way he would be able to keep #1. It would put him to four losses against JD's one. Also JD would be in both leagues while Flash only in MSL.
Their bo3 really decides #1, the winner takes it all.
On December 25 2009 02:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wouldn't. If Jaedong wins, then he's a PL workhorse, and in both MSL and OSL. If Flash wins, he's in MSL and OSL as well as being a PL workhorse.
The difference between the two, after the match, is obviously that one player is truly dominant over the other and can go the distance this season.
Flash would be out of OSL
What? So would Jaedong.
Point is, whoever loses is out of the league, which is reason enough to put them below.
Flash COULD still drop MSL, though. Zero is no pushover.
On December 24 2009 20:43 SuperArc wrote: JD secured his #2 spot! Now its time to get that #1. >=)
Yeah I think spots 1 and 2 will be determined tonight. However Flash can still hold on to #1 even if he loses, it just depends on the way in which he loses. Don't forget he beat Jaedong very convincingly in game 1. If JD scrapes 2 wins I would still keep Flash at the top.
If Flash loses there is no way he would be able to keep #1. It would put him to four losses against JD's one. Also JD would be in both leagues while Flash only in MSL.
Their bo3 really decides #1, the winner takes it all.
On December 25 2009 02:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wouldn't. If Jaedong wins, then he's a PL workhorse, and in both MSL and OSL. If Flash wins, he's in MSL and OSL as well as being a PL workhorse.
The difference between the two, after the match, is obviously that one player is truly dominant over the other and can go the distance this season.
Flash would be out of OSL
What? So would Jaedong.
Point is, whoever loses is out of the league, which is reason enough to put them below.
Flash COULD still drop MSL, though. Zero is no pushover.
What is hard to understand here, the argument was about JD beating flash. Then jaedong would totally be in both msl and osl while flash just in the msl.
On December 24 2009 20:43 SuperArc wrote: JD secured his #2 spot! Now its time to get that #1. >=)
Yeah I think spots 1 and 2 will be determined tonight. However Flash can still hold on to #1 even if he loses, it just depends on the way in which he loses. Don't forget he beat Jaedong very convincingly in game 1. If JD scrapes 2 wins I would still keep Flash at the top.
If Flash loses there is no way he would be able to keep #1. It would put him to four losses against JD's one. Also JD would be in both leagues while Flash only in MSL.
Their bo3 really decides #1, the winner takes it all.
On December 25 2009 02:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wouldn't. If Jaedong wins, then he's a PL workhorse, and in both MSL and OSL. If Flash wins, he's in MSL and OSL as well as being a PL workhorse.
The difference between the two, after the match, is obviously that one player is truly dominant over the other and can go the distance this season.
Flash would be out of OSL
What? So would Jaedong.
Point is, whoever loses is out of the league, which is reason enough to put them below.
Flash COULD still drop MSL, though. Zero is no pushover.
What is hard to understand here, the argument was about JD beating flash. Then jaedong would totally be in both msl and osl while flash just in the msl.
Um? Notice how his third sentence begins with "If Flash wins...". If Flash wins, JD would totally be out of OSL...
I don't think this is decided by whoever wins of jaedong and flash. Flash should still be nr1. He's done what noone else has, he is currently 2380 ELO, breaking records left and right at the moment. And its not only about the records and ELO and results... He's been playing better than anyone has ever.
Don't get me wrong, I love jaedong and he's definately a monster, but the way flash has been performing the last months have been so incredible that a 2-1 win over him where the loss was a complete rape couldn't possibly mean that jaedong should be above him.
I think Flash will win anyway but imo it doesn't even matter at this point. OSL or not... might have mattered if it was a 3-0 rape in a bo5 or something, but the situation flash is in now is unique..
why even talk about what will happen if Jaedong beats flash? I mean, theres almost no chance its going to happen, so why bother talking about such implausible hypotheticals?
On December 25 2009 07:09 yhnmk wrote: why even talk about what will happen if Jaedong beats flash? I mean, theres almost no chance its going to happen, so why bother talking about such implausible hypotheticals?
coz its 2 games of starcraft and jaedong is good, but i guess that was not serious. in fact, the fact that some actually might think its almost impossible for a zerg to beat flash is an indicator that he deserves #1 spot next month too:D
But Jaedong's been doing just as well this month and that whole reputation angle is kinda hard to use against Jaedong. Assuming Jaedong wins. So why not just wait until after tonight anyways?
at the rate flash is going, i doubt he'll lose to jd tonight
And then looking at the games after tonight's epic match, the odds are stacked up against JD for PR #1. Just look at his last two matches for this month: a ZvP against Movie tomorrow, and then a ZvT against Sea a couple days later. Neither of them are pushovers, and both have been improving alot and doing extremely well recently; both are arguably one of the current top 3 for their respective races.
Now look at Flash's remaining matches; all he has left this month are TvZs, it's all needs to practice. And against Zero, Hogil and s2 nonetheless. Like, just look at it. Zero isn't exactly known for his ZvT. And Hogil and s2? roflmao
Unless JD completely dominates Flash tonight, Flash crashes/plays mediocre in the his other games afterwards, and JD suddenly starts raping everything again (basically completely exchanging their current situations), I don't see why JD should be #1. Even if a more moderate situation occurs, in which Flash starts doing a little worse than before, and JD improves a little bit from what he's doing now, you still have to take into account their earlier games this month, where Flash clearly has demonstrated better results.
Basically, I'd personally give a 80% chance of Flash being PR #1, a 15% chance of JD being #1, and a 5% chance of them both magically failing epically, with movie or some other shit suddenly raping the hell out of all the existence of SC and thus forcing riptide to make him #1 for this month.
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
Had JD won 2-1, he and Flash would have had about the same ELO.
If he beats Zero, hogil and s2 I don't know if he can break 2400 though. The latter two are pretty low on ELO so he's probably only gonna get like 2-3 points max.
On December 26 2009 01:14 eshlow wrote: Flash is a monster... wow.
If he beats Zero, hogil and s2 I don't know if he can break 2400 though. The latter two are pretty low on ELO so he's probably only gonna get like 2-3 points max.
hogil and s2 will give 1 point each and Zero 2-3 max.
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
Had JD won 2-1, he and Flash would have had about the same ELO.
Yeah but flash is the one who had almost 2400 before that, such high elo drops fast. Jaedong got utterly destroyed in the first game due to a mistake he made so unless jaedong would have completely destroyed flash in standard length games with no easy mistakes from flash he should stay at nr2.
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
Had JD won 2-1, he and Flash would have had about the same ELO.
Yeah but flash is the one who had almost 2400 before that, such high elo drops fast. Jaedong got utterly destroyed in the first game so unless jaedong would have completely destroyed flash in standard length games he should stay at nr2.
Had flash made that rush and lost and then made a similiar thing the next game, would you have placed JD above him? i wouldn't have.
Why not? Being in two leagues > one, having only one loss > having four. There would have been no logical reason not to put JD as #1. And especially if Flash lost those games in that matter. (it would have meant Flash is too scared to play JD straight up)
The winner of their bo3 was destined to be #1. Flash won, so he gets #1.
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
Had JD won 2-1, he and Flash would have had about the same ELO.
Yeah but flash is the one who had almost 2400 before that, such high elo drops fast. Jaedong got utterly destroyed in the first game so unless jaedong would have completely destroyed flash in standard length games he should stay at nr2.
Had flash made that rush and lost and then made a similiar thing the next game, would you have placed JD above him? i wouldn't have.
Why not? Being in two leagues > one, having only one loss > having four. There would have been no logical reason not to put JD as #1. And especially if Flash lost those games in that matter. (it would have meant Flash is too scared to play JD straight up)
LOL
Did you miss game 1 or something?
The Ultimate Weapon is back. And it's stronger than ever before. I am more pleased with that game than I could possibly have been with a slugfest --- back when Flash was winning Bacchus and GSI, it was with a healthy dose of aggressive plays to keep his opponents guessing. He had sick macro and awesome game sense, and it was the occasional rax-first or bunker rush that really made him scary. He's gone back to his roots and he's ready to win some golds.
You know guys im just saying, but if PR was based on who would win a bo5 right now JD would be no1 no question
Embrace the RAGE
Edit: Im just joking/trolling at the JD fan stereotype and venting some rage while doing. Flash is the better player no doubt and was the better player in the end, 8rax is kind of gay and disappointing way to end a series that represents the epitome of what BW is today, anyone that denies that Flash is the better player after watching game 1 between them and Flash's recent performance is blind, but one game is not enough, and everyone wouldve wanted another nice epic management game between them, but what can you do, you play to win, and Flash is going to win the OSL.
Jaedong would also be #1 if the PR was based on imaginary games.
You saw what happened.
Edit: Look, I'm a Jaedong fan too, and I couldn't have been happier when Jaedong won his back-to-back OSLs. He's a living legend and he proves over and over again that he's the best Zerg in the world, no contest. But Flash has been just quietly racking up an outrageous win ratio without actually doing anything in individual leagues for two years now. He's the best Terran with only a single gold medal to show for it. Nobody blinks when he goes on a 10-game win streak --- it happens all the time! And now that he's finally poised to claim his own, now that he's finally ready to transfer that absurd skill level and win ratio into a gold medal or two (we hope), people are hating on him for doing what he had to do, looking out for his own best interests, and playing the perfect build required to win the game.
People are hating on Shine too for doing the same thing. Guys, progaming is not about going easy on your opponent. It's about winning as many games as you possibly can, however you can. If a game fails to live up to your expectations, 99% of the time it's because the loser screwed up.
I can understand being disappointed that your favorite player lost. That happens to all of us.
I can understand feeling robbed of a long epic match. That happens to all of us.
But don't hold it against the winners, whose careers depend on them winning their fucking matches.
On December 26 2009 06:28 samachking wrote: You know guys im just saying, but if PR was based on who would win a bo5 right now JD would be no1 no question
Flash is creeping scarily close to 70% overall win rate in TLPD. If he wins his next 5 games in a row he'll hit it (or, you know, drops one game and then goes on another 7-8 game win streak like he tends to do lately).
Also first player to be over 2300 Elo in two matchups (vT and vZ). I don't think anyone is ever going to break his current overall Elo record (except himself expanding it) at 2387, either.
I can't wait to see more of Flash's TvP. If he can get his TvP together he's going to be unstoppable. I'm sad Stork is out of OSL, but maybe Flash vs Movie can deliver some good games.
this is looking like the dominance of a year and a half ago. jaedong is a colossal player, maybe the best ever overall, but nobody can beat flash when he's on fire like this, they just gotta wait for him to burn out
On December 26 2009 07:09 o[twist] wrote: this is looking like the dominance of a year and a half ago. jaedong is a colossal player, maybe the best ever overall, but nobody can beat flash when he's on fire like this, they just gotta wait for him to burn out
Didnt JD kick Flash out of MSL (bo5) during Flash's dominance time?
and Flash kicked out JD out of OSL (bo3), history really going to repeat? lol
On December 26 2009 07:09 o[twist] wrote: this is looking like the dominance of a year and a half ago. jaedong is a colossal player, maybe the best ever overall, but nobody can beat flash when he's on fire like this, they just gotta wait for him to burn out
Didnt JD kick Flash out of MSL (bo5) during Flash's dominance time?
and Flash kicked out JD out of OSL (bo3), history really going to repeat? lol
do you mean forgg? i think the losses to forgg in msl and jaedong in gom came alongside or caused or were an effect of flash's burnout last time he was really dominating
On December 26 2009 07:09 o[twist] wrote: this is looking like the dominance of a year and a half ago. jaedong is a colossal player, maybe the best ever overall, but nobody can beat flash when he's on fire like this, they just gotta wait for him to burn out
Didnt JD kick Flash out of MSL (bo5) during Flash's dominance time?
and Flash kicked out JD out of OSL (bo3), history really going to repeat? lol
do you mean forgg? i think the losses to forgg in msl and jaedong in gom came alongside or caused or were an effect of flash's burnout last time he was really dominating
well from what time do you consider Flash's dominance run?
On December 26 2009 06:28 samachking wrote: You know guys im just saying, but if PR was based on who would win a bo5 right now JD would be no1 no question
Embrace the RAGE
Edit: Im just joking/trolling at the JD fan stereotype and venting some rage while doing. Flash is the better player no doubt and was the better player in the end, 8rax is kind of gay and disappointing way to end a series that represents the epitome of what BW is today, anyone that denies that Flash is the better player after watching game 1 between them and Flash's recent performance is blind, but one game is not enough, and everyone wouldve wanted another nice epic management game between them, but what can you do, you play to win, and Flash is going to win the OSL.
No he wouldn't. Go back and watch game 1 against Flash. Flash is a clear favourite against Jaedong. People were saying that Jaedong is going down 2:0 and many Jaedong fans ridiculed them. But it happened. There is not even a slightest sign why would Jaedong has an edge over Flash in Bo5.
On December 26 2009 06:35 Djabanete wrote: Jaedong would also be #1 if the PR was based on imaginary games.
You saw what happened.
Edit: Look, I'm a Jaedong fan too, and I couldn't have been happier when Jaedong won his back-to-back OSLs. He's a living legend and he proves over and over again that he's the best Zerg in the world, no contest. But Flash has been just quietly racking up an outrageous win ratio without actually doing anything in individual leagues for two years now. He's the best Terran with only a single gold medal to show for it. Nobody blinks when he goes on a 10-game win streak --- it happens all the time! And now that he's finally poised to claim his own, now that he's finally ready to transfer that absurd skill level and win ratio into a gold medal or two (we hope), people are hating on him for doing what he had to do, looking out for his own best interests, and playing the perfect build required to win the game.
People are hating on Shine too for doing the same thing. Guys, progaming is not about going easy on your opponent. It's about winning as many games as you possibly can, however you can. If a game fails to live up to your expectations, 99% of the time it's because the loser screwed up.
I can understand being disappointed that your favorite player lost. That happens to all of us.
I can understand feeling robbed of a long epic match. That happens to all of us.
But don't hold it against the winners, whose careers depend on them winning their fucking matches.
Finally someone posts something that makes sense, quality post count +1
On December 26 2009 07:09 o[twist] wrote: this is looking like the dominance of a year and a half ago. jaedong is a colossal player, maybe the best ever overall, but nobody can beat flash when he's on fire like this, they just gotta wait for him to burn out
Didnt JD kick Flash out of MSL (bo5) during Flash's dominance time?
and Flash kicked out JD out of OSL (bo3), history really going to repeat? lol
do you mean forgg? i think the losses to forgg in msl and jaedong in gom came alongside or caused or were an effect of flash's burnout last time he was really dominating
well from what time do you consider Flash's dominance run?
It wasn't a normal 8rax. It was a well-calculated stragegy to kill zergs first overlord on a map where its impossible for him to save it, including a 7rax.
This would result in an autowin vs 12hatch and fairly standard game vs 9pool and maybe loss vs 4pool. It was a beutiful strategy because of the map, and I'd really like to see what his followup would have been.
Sure I wanted a more epic game though. This he could have done vs Jju
On December 25 2009 19:08 SimonB wrote: Well, I guess that settles that.
That game didn't show any of their skill though. But i still think flash would have been nr1 even if the games were draggen out and jaedong won 2-1 in an even bo3. I don't uderstand how some can't think it can be debated.
When a player is about to break 2400 elo something is up if he's not nr1 when the guy under him is around 2300
Had JD won 2-1, he and Flash would have had about the same ELO.
Yeah but flash is the one who had almost 2400 before that, such high elo drops fast. Jaedong got utterly destroyed in the first game so unless jaedong would have completely destroyed flash in standard length games he should stay at nr2.
Had flash made that rush and lost and then made a similiar thing the next game, would you have placed JD above him? i wouldn't have.
Why not? Being in two leagues > one, having only one loss > having four. There would have been no logical reason not to put JD as #1. And especially if Flash lost those games in that matter. (it would have meant Flash is too scared to play JD straight up)
The winner of their bo3 was destined to be #1. Flash won, so he gets #1.
I dunno, Flash raped the shit out of Jaedong in game 1. Without a rape of similar magnitude, you would be hard-pressed to call Jaedong the better player. Even if Flash "just cheesed", it was a calculated, practiced strategy and it worked well.
On December 26 2009 21:05 FireGuyX wrote: 1.Flash 2.Jaedong 3.Calm 4.Shine 5.Stork 6.Movie 7.Best 8.Kal 9.Light 10.Sea
You think Sea\Light deserves these spots over Bisu\Effort? Granted Light is in the MSL still hes performing highly mediocre in PL. While Sea just like the others are out of both leagues and performing similar in PL (slightly worse lately but vs some hard opponents). Yeah they both dropped out of their leagues, but they are still beastly in PL and would probably be a favorite in a BO3\5 vs half your list.
i think the hardest question is really who to put in the bottom 3 spots... bisu, effort, zero (though they're great players no doubt) have been losing quite a bit this month
Cuz Movie had to play Zero and Pure while Kal had to play Saint, Type-b and Hyuk.
The 1on1 game was a decent indicator but Movie crushing Zero in PvZ is more impressive than any of Kal's wins, lately. He's also in the semifinals whereas Kal is only the Ro8 -- not that fair because the MSL has been scheduled later but it's still true.
Calm is definitely #3. That's what you deserve when you're a league champion and now in OSL ro4. Plus he went 9-1 this month, only losing a ZvZ to Hyun while beating Effort/Shine/Zero as well as Pure to make OSL.
After that it's really hard to say. I think you have to put the other OSL semifinalists as 4/5 - both guys beat very hard opponents in impressive fashion, especially Movie (but Shine has played better overall I think when including PL).
I don't think Kal or Hwasin's runs have been that impressive. Didn't Kwanro murder Kal in PL this month too? I find it funny nobody mentions Kwanro. But Kal has had a really good month overall.
And of course Bisu/Stork/Effort get spots because when you watch their games you can see their incredible skill. And they've been playing well aside from disappointing individual league performances.
So I'd say:
1. Flash 2. the DONG 3. Calm 4. Shine (losses this month are to Calm where he still qualified for OSL, Bisu in PL, and Stork but he still won the BO3 ... many good wins this month including Stork and fantasy) 5. Movie 6. Stork (literally one win away from being #3 ... but you can't lose that 3rd game, tough) 7. Kal 8/9 Bisu/Effort (partly depends on if Effort crushes Stork) 10. Kwanro
CBNC - Zero (had a really rough month but he's still one of the best, put up a great fight against Flash after a bunch of tough ZvP losses) - Light (beat hero but hasn't done much this month overall, didn't exactly look amazing in his games either)
As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
On December 27 2009 08:53 darktreb wrote: Calm is definitely #3. That's what you deserve when you're a league champion and now in OSL ro4. Plus he went 9-1 this month, only losing a ZvZ to Hyun while beating Effort/Shine/Zero as well as Pure to make OSL.
After that it's really hard to say. I think you have to put the other OSL semifinalists as 4/5 - both guys beat very hard opponents in impressive fashion, especially Movie (but Shine has played better overall I think when including PL).
I don't think Kal or Hwasin's runs have been that impressive. Didn't Kwanro murder Kal in PL this month too? I find it funny nobody mentions Kwanro. But Kal has had a really good month overall.
And of course Bisu/Stork/Effort get spots because when you watch their games you can see their incredible skill. And they've been playing well aside from disappointing individual league performances.
So I'd say:
1. Flash 2. the DONG 3. Calm 4. Shine (losses this month are to Calm where he still qualified for OSL, Bisu in PL, and Stork but he still won the BO3 ... many good wins this month including Stork and fantasy) 5. Movie 6. Stork (literally one win away from being #3 ... but you can't lose that 3rd game, tough) 7. Kal 8/9 Bisu/Effort (partly depends on if Effort crushes Stork) 10. Kwanro
CBNC - Zero (had a really rough month but he's still one of the best, put up a great fight against Flash after a bunch of tough ZvP losses) - Light (beat hero but hasn't done much this month overall, didn't exactly look amazing in his games either)
As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
Including PL, Movie played better than Shine..., especially since he had to play PvZ (imba matchup )
On December 27 2009 08:53 darktreb wrote:As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
While he have not played that many games in December, hes still 12-3 (Not sure if they count the Preseason MSL thing as official games, but I sort of looked away from them since it really was a pointless tourney) in his last 15games playing solidly and taking games from both Flash and Calm during the last 2 months. In general Best is playing some damn fine StarCraft these days.
On December 27 2009 07:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Cuz Movie had to play Zero and Pure while Kal had to play Saint, Type-b and Hyuk.
The 1on1 game was a decent indicator but Movie crushing Zero in PvZ is more impressive than any of Kal's wins, lately. He's also in the semifinals whereas Kal is only the Ro8 -- not that fair because the MSL has been scheduled later but it's still true.
And Zero also lost to STX's 2nd protoss, good ol' Shuttle. I don't hear anyone singing him praises. I find the direct match a lot more relevant than the fact Movie won over a player that's theoretically great at ZvP but has been slumping pretty bad the last month.
Also, I fail to see how Movie's win over Zero was "crushing". It seemed like a pretty damn close call to me.
One could also argue that Movie only has one matchup that's impressive, since Kal destoyed him in a PvP (that wasn't remotely close at any point) and his vT is sub-50% with 5 losses in the last 10 last games. One strong matchup a great player does not make. Comparatively, Kal has no "weak" matchup, and while known primarily as a great PvZer, his PvT is even better.
I know I'm biased here, but the way I see it, Movie only gets more attention because CJ is ever so popular.
On December 27 2009 07:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Cuz Movie had to play Zero and Pure while Kal had to play Saint, Type-b and Hyuk.
The 1on1 game was a decent indicator but Movie crushing Zero in PvZ is more impressive than any of Kal's wins, lately. He's also in the semifinals whereas Kal is only the Ro8 -- not that fair because the MSL has been scheduled later but it's still true.
And Zero also lost to STX's 2nd protoss, good ol' Shuttle. I don't hear anyone singing him praises. I find the direct match a lot more relevant than the fact Movie won over a player that's theoretically great at ZvP but has been slumping pretty bad the last month.
Also, I fail to see how Movie's win over Zero was "crushing". It seemed like a pretty damn close call to me.
One could also argue that Movie only has one matchup that's impressive, since Kal destoyed him in a PvP (that wasn't remotely close at any point) and his vT is sub-50% with 5 losses in the last 10 last games. One strong matchup a great player does not make. Comparatively, Kal has no "weak" matchup, and while known primarily as a great PvZer, his PvT is even better.
I know I'm biased here, but the way I see it, Movie only gets more attention because CJ is ever so popular.
Movie hasn't been playing that much PvT or PvP, although I've noticed in an improvement in those matchups. Also in PvP he has beaten Pusan, Stork, and Pure, so his PvP is not weak as you think it is.
On December 27 2009 08:53 darktreb wrote: Calm is definitely #3. That's what you deserve when you're a league champion and now in OSL ro4. Plus he went 9-1 this month, only losing a ZvZ to Hyun while beating Effort/Shine/Zero as well as Pure to make OSL.
After that it's really hard to say. I think you have to put the other OSL semifinalists as 4/5 - both guys beat very hard opponents in impressive fashion, especially Movie (but Shine has played better overall I think when including PL).
I don't think Kal or Hwasin's runs have been that impressive. Didn't Kwanro murder Kal in PL this month too? I find it funny nobody mentions Kwanro. But Kal has had a really good month overall.
And of course Bisu/Stork/Effort get spots because when you watch their games you can see their incredible skill. And they've been playing well aside from disappointing individual league performances.
So I'd say:
1. Flash 2. the DONG 3. Calm 4. Shine (losses this month are to Calm where he still qualified for OSL, Bisu in PL, and Stork but he still won the BO3 ... many good wins this month including Stork and fantasy) 5. Movie 6. Stork (literally one win away from being #3 ... but you can't lose that 3rd game, tough) 7. Kal 8/9 Bisu/Effort (partly depends on if Effort crushes Stork) 10. Kwanro
CBNC - Zero (had a really rough month but he's still one of the best, put up a great fight against Flash after a bunch of tough ZvP losses) - Light (beat hero but hasn't done much this month overall, didn't exactly look amazing in his games either)
As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
Including PL, Movie played better than Shine..., especially since he had to play PvZ (imba matchup )
I don't know man, I love Movie (my favorite P by far) but Shine's run has been insane. He has only lost to elite players this month, and his OSL run is one of the sickest ever for someone coming out of nowhere. Something about beating Bisu in RO36 seems to bring out the best in an out of nowhere Zerg (hi by.hero).
Also Shine had no embarrassing losses like Movie's game against Jaedong where he looked like he'd been up drinking all night celebrating his OSL win ... probably because he actually had been up drinking all night celebrating.
I just don't think Shine gets enough credit because of all the hate he's attracted. I love Movie and consider him the favorite against Shine (I will be rooting for Movie hard) but all things considered I think Shine is 4a and Movie is 4b.
On December 27 2009 08:53 darktreb wrote: Calm is definitely #3. That's what you deserve when you're a league champion and now in OSL ro4. Plus he went 9-1 this month, only losing a ZvZ to Hyun while beating Effort/Shine/Zero as well as Pure to make OSL.
After that it's really hard to say. I think you have to put the other OSL semifinalists as 4/5 - both guys beat very hard opponents in impressive fashion, especially Movie (but Shine has played better overall I think when including PL).
I don't think Kal or Hwasin's runs have been that impressive. Didn't Kwanro murder Kal in PL this month too? I find it funny nobody mentions Kwanro. But Kal has had a really good month overall.
And of course Bisu/Stork/Effort get spots because when you watch their games you can see their incredible skill. And they've been playing well aside from disappointing individual league performances.
So I'd say:
1. Flash 2. the DONG 3. Calm 4. Shine (losses this month are to Calm where he still qualified for OSL, Bisu in PL, and Stork but he still won the BO3 ... many good wins this month including Stork and fantasy) 5. Movie 6. Stork (literally one win away from being #3 ... but you can't lose that 3rd game, tough) 7. Kal 8/9 Bisu/Effort (partly depends on if Effort crushes Stork) 10. Kwanro
CBNC - Zero (had a really rough month but he's still one of the best, put up a great fight against Flash after a bunch of tough ZvP losses) - Light (beat hero but hasn't done much this month overall, didn't exactly look amazing in his games either)
As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
Including PL, Movie played better than Shine..., especially since he had to play PvZ (imba matchup )
I don't know man, I love Movie (my favorite P by far) but Shine's run has been insane. He has only lost to elite players this month, and his OSL run is one of the sickest ever for someone coming out of nowhere. Something about beating Bisu in RO36 seems to bring out the best in an out of nowhere Zerg (hi by.hero).
Also Shine had no embarrassing losses like Movie's game against Jaedong where he looked like he'd been up drinking all night celebrating his OSL win ... probably because he actually had been up drinking all night celebrating.
I just don't think Shine gets enough credit because of all the hate he's attracted. I love Movie and consider him the favorite against Shine (I will be rooting for Movie hard) but all things considered I think Shine is 4a and Movie is 4b.
I actually believe that big part of shine hate is caused by his looks; he is not likeable like bisu, cute like zero or fun like fbh. Combine with destroying peoples favourites, he is suddenly hated far to much. With time and with (possibly) continued good results hi reputation will probably begin to shine.
On December 27 2009 08:53 darktreb wrote: Calm is definitely #3. That's what you deserve when you're a league champion and now in OSL ro4. Plus he went 9-1 this month, only losing a ZvZ to Hyun while beating Effort/Shine/Zero as well as Pure to make OSL.
After that it's really hard to say. I think you have to put the other OSL semifinalists as 4/5 - both guys beat very hard opponents in impressive fashion, especially Movie (but Shine has played better overall I think when including PL).
I don't think Kal or Hwasin's runs have been that impressive. Didn't Kwanro murder Kal in PL this month too? I find it funny nobody mentions Kwanro. But Kal has had a really good month overall.
And of course Bisu/Stork/Effort get spots because when you watch their games you can see their incredible skill. And they've been playing well aside from disappointing individual league performances.
So I'd say:
1. Flash 2. the DONG 3. Calm 4. Shine (losses this month are to Calm where he still qualified for OSL, Bisu in PL, and Stork but he still won the BO3 ... many good wins this month including Stork and fantasy) 5. Movie 6. Stork (literally one win away from being #3 ... but you can't lose that 3rd game, tough) 7. Kal 8/9 Bisu/Effort (partly depends on if Effort crushes Stork) 10. Kwanro
CBNC - Zero (had a really rough month but he's still one of the best, put up a great fight against Flash after a bunch of tough ZvP losses) - Light (beat hero but hasn't done much this month overall, didn't exactly look amazing in his games either)
As for Best? Literally all he did this month was win a PvT against a teammate, beat a rookie in PvT in PL, and get slaughtered by Stork
Including PL, Movie played better than Shine..., especially since he had to play PvZ (imba matchup )
I don't know man, I love Movie (my favorite P by far) but Shine's run has been insane. He has only lost to elite players this month, and his OSL run is one of the sickest ever for someone coming out of nowhere. Something about beating Bisu in RO36 seems to bring out the best in an out of nowhere Zerg (hi by.hero).
Also Shine had no embarrassing losses like Movie's game against Jaedong where he looked like he'd been up drinking all night celebrating his OSL win ... probably because he actually had been up drinking all night celebrating.
I just don't think Shine gets enough credit because of all the hate he's attracted. I love Movie and consider him the favorite against Shine (I will be rooting for Movie hard) but all things considered I think Shine is 4a and Movie is 4b.
Shine has been playing more consistent, but I think Movie has more upside. You can say that Shine is 4a and Movie is 4b, but if you look at their records it's pretty similar.
As for who wins in the OSL Ro4. I think its 50/50 mainly because El Nino and HBR favors Zerg. If the maps were more balanced, I would favor Movie. But Movie, he wins against Zergs in Zerg favored maps, especially on HBR.
well Calm sure did vindicate keeping a PR rank last month. I guess it's Bisu's turn to justify not being wiped off the map? He's played far too well in PL to not rank higher than, for example, Sea, but definitely below his own standards.
Anti-fans are going to rage hard about this entry, but the truth is Bisu is clearly #3 on the scene at the moment. While certainly below Jaedong's standard in most matchups right now, he is still playing great Starcraft. Despite a loss to Luxury early on, Bisu delivered the results needed for SKT T1, and though now out of the OSL, is still by far one of the strongest contenders for a MSL title this season. Simply put, Bisu just didn't play enough this month to justify putting him lower. His games haven't been spectacular, sure, but remember, that's all relative. This guy is still one of progaming's most consistent performers, and it shows.
Bisu was given his 'benefit of the doubt' month this month. He should be lucky to get a low #9/10 spot in Jan.
Do you really want someone who got manner-CC'd by CuteAngel high on the PR?
Anti-fans are going to rage hard about this entry, but the truth is Bisu is clearly #3 on the scene at the moment. While certainly below Jaedong's standard in most matchups right now, he is still playing great Starcraft. Despite a loss to Luxury early on, Bisu delivered the results needed for SKT T1, and though now out of the OSL, is still by far one of the strongest contenders for a MSL title this season. Simply put, Bisu just didn't play enough this month to justify putting him lower. His games haven't been spectacular, sure, but remember, that's all relative. This guy is still one of progaming's most consistent performers, and it shows.
Bisu was given his 'benefit of the doubt' month this month. He should be lucky to get a low #9/10 spot in Jan.
Do you really want someone who got manner-CC'd by CuteAngel high on the PR?
yes. i mean, 2-0 vs Fox Zergs. Show me another P who can do this.
I kinda miss Leta in this List.... There cannot be a Top-10 right now without him IMO.
Also, Fantasy should be placed higher and Stork too, if you look at this month... Sea shouldn't even be in the Top-10, because in every other League than the Proleague, he is insignificant. There are tons of Players that deserve to be in this List more than Sea, like Light, Kal, JangBi, the aforementoined Leta etc.
And yes; Bisu is clearly overrated atm. He lost games he should've never lost this month.
On December 30 2009 00:31 kickinhead wrote: I kinda miss Leta in this List.... There cannot be a Top-10 right now without him IMO.
Also, Fantasy should be placed higher and Stork too, if you look at this month... Sea shouldn't even be in the Top-10, because in every other League than the Proleague, he is insignificant. There are tons of Players that deserve to be in this List more than Sea, like Light, Kal, JangBi, the aforementoined Leta etc.
And yes; Bisu is clearly overrated atm. He lost games he should've never lost this month.
Fantasy higher? i dont think so, fantasy has been just bad lately
The rest can be given to Effort, Hwasin, Kwanro...
calm = fail ?
I think the fact that Calm has won all his games in the OSL is significantly more important than a loss in PL. Even Flash lost to HyuN this month in PL and no one is disputing that he's the #1 player by miles.
I'd say Calm's just slightly ahead of Kal because he's played better quality opponents the Last month while having basically the same win:loss ratio.
The rest can be given to Effort, Hwasin, Kwanro...
calm = fail ?
I think the fact that Calm has won all his games in the OSL is significantly more important than a loss in PL. Even Flash lost to Hyun this month in PL and no one is disputing that he's the #1 player by miles.
Well it was the way he lost that bothers me... and besides beating pure(especially on some pretty ZvP friendly maps) isnt really all that impressive.
Though overall calm is still the most likely one for #3 not only becuase of his osl spot but becuase the way Movie and Stork lost today(srsly go watch storks game it was such a hilarious reminder of the times when he used to lose vs Z in the dumbest way possible).
Calm deserves #3 because he's had exactly 1 bad month in the last half year, and he still held on in the OSL throughout that. He's a top 4 contender in an incredibly competitive OSL, playing great overall Starcraft, and has been amazing for a long time now.
Stork is my #4 for the same reason - he's been so good for so long, and despite getting blitzed by Shine I still think he's the 4th most dangerous progamer out there at the moment.
#5 is a tough spot - Shine has been dominant in the OSL but not necessarily elsewhere. Zero DID deserve it until tanking lately (though many of zero's losses have been quality games and I think he's getting a bad rap for a player who made RO8/RO16 in both leagues and came up against some stiff competition). Kal is playing some fantastic games but has not been dominant for a terribly long time as of yet.
On December 30 2009 10:36 tedster wrote: Calm deserves #3 because he's had exactly 1 bad month in the last half year, and he still held on in the OSL throughout that. He's a top 4 contender in an incredibly competitive OSL, playing great overall Starcraft, and has been amazing for a long time now.
Stork is my #4 for the same reason - he's been so good for so long, and despite getting blitzed by Shine I still think he's the 4th most dangerous progamer out there at the moment.
#5 is a tough spot - Shine has been dominant in the OSL but not necessarily elsewhere. Zero DID deserve it until tanking lately (though many of zero's losses have been quality games and I think he's getting a bad rap for a player who made RO8/RO16 in both leagues and came up against some stiff competition). Kal is playing some fantastic games but has not been dominant for a terribly long time as of yet.
...how about we give #5 to Shine[Kal]?
Effort Zero and Bisu i think are as dangerous as Stork but they all failed in the leagues .This will be a tough rankings .
CBNC: ZerO could have been on the list if he defeated some strong player, he had many opportunities and only defeated Flash once in a series he lost 1-2. BeSt has played very few games this month, winning against terrans and losing against protoss :S
The Jaedong match probably doesn't mater. I guess he's #2 even if he does lose. Although, I guess Calm stealing #2 would be somewhat plausible in that case.
Kal's somewhere in the middle of the pack right now since he's coming from out of the top ten. So another solid win could secure him a spot ahead of Shine/Stork/Movie/etc.
On December 31 2009 00:40 Dreamer.T wrote: My predictions:
Shine beat Stork -- and Bisu -- and came out of a tough OSL Group to do it. He may not be as dazzling in PL as Stork, but when it's that close in who's putting up the best results, I'm going to go with the guy who won head to head.
He played just as well as Stork in MSL and similarly in proleague, despite weaker PL opposition. When it's that close the head to head score and the fact that he's still in OSL is enough to rank him over Stork.
On December 31 2009 15:10 tedster wrote: Shine has not played up to the same level outside of the OSL, however, which is why he probably doesn't deserve the spot over Stork.
That, and his reliance on particularly advantageous Z>P maps.
If the map lineup was, say, Fighting Spirit + Outsider + Match Point, I strongly doubt Shine would be in the OSL Semi-Finals.
On December 31 2009 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash, aaaaah, he's a miracle!
Flash, aaaaah, king of the impossible!
stomping a gimmick build makes him a miracle well ok
It's a song composed by the band Queen called "Flash's Theme," for the movie "Flash Gordon,"-- a popular comic adapted in several other media. Using the ameliorating lyrics is mostly in good fun and jest
but sure, you tell me why Flash isn't the best player in the world. Go ahead.
Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
On January 01 2010 01:36 Djabanete wrote: Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
(<3 JWD btw)
i actually miss SKT wish rank, so much rage back then... i felt... alive
On January 01 2010 01:36 Djabanete wrote: Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
(<3 JWD btw)
i actually miss SKT wish rank, so much rage back then... i felt... alive
Imagine the rage if Flash decides to drop both finals >_>
On January 01 2010 01:36 Djabanete wrote: Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
(<3 JWD btw)
i actually miss SKT wish rank, so much rage back then... i felt... alive
1. Best 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Fantasy (has not played much lately but is very skilled so probably would have won games if he'd played them) 5. Stork 6. Canata (he's in a league, right? Or not. Shit, whatever.) 7. Calm 8. Movie 9. s2 10. Effort (underperforming --- must improve or fall off the ranking)
On January 01 2010 01:36 Djabanete wrote: Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
(<3 JWD btw)
i actually miss SKT wish rank, so much rage back then... i felt... alive
1. Best 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Fantasy (has not played much lately but is very skilled so probably would have won games if he'd played them) 5. Stork 6. Canata (he's in a league, right? Or not. Shit, whatever.) 7. Calm 8. Movie 9. s2 10. Effort (underperforming --- must improve or fall off the ranking)
Flash vs Calm will change nothing. Even if Flash gets gets 3-0ed, the only thing that will happen is Calm moving up a bit. Flash is basically too far ahead to drop down from #1 this month.
On January 01 2010 01:36 Djabanete wrote: Haha I was worried that Flash would drop that game against Best, but instead he just rolled him up and smoked him. Only thing that could keep Flash off #1 is if JWD stepped in for a surprise guest PR :D
(<3 JWD btw)
Agreed. JWD is awesome, but his SKT1 love is huge. I just downloaded all of sc2gg.net's podcasts, and 95% of his comments are regarding how T1 is awesome (which they are)
A Calm 3-0 Flash would make things interesting. A 0-3 loss makes it hard to put Flash on top (although there is a precedent for that *coughSaviorcough*).
Even if Flash is 3-0'd, all that means is that there is now no longer a single player alive in both leagues. Flash is on even ground with everyone, other than the fact that he 2-0'd Jaedong, is ahead in his MSL game, and is the #1 star in PL right now. Calm 3-0ing Flash would, at most, jettison him up to 2nd for being able to do what Jaedong couldn't.
Regardless of tonight, Flash should get #1. If he wins, well, the guy's a 2 month bonjwa.
I couldn't care less if Flash had lost to BeSt yesterday and if he lost to Calm tonight, he would still unquestionably be number 1. Throw in a few losses to CuteAngel Firebathero just to underscore the point.
Hi my name is Lee Young Ho and I am 17 years old. My hobbies are soccer, eating meals with my teammates, and destroying the hearts, minds, and wills of all my peers with crushing displays of merciless dominance. Nice to meet all of you.
On January 01 2010 20:59 Holgerius wrote: If todays games count Clam should be No2 IMO. He pushed Flash to the limit in a way no Zerg has done in many months.
Calm was amazing today, but Jaedong has been performing amazing still in both the proleague and MSL (despite getting owned by Flash). Calm is now out of both leagues.
On January 01 2010 20:59 Holgerius wrote: If todays games count Clam should be No2 IMO. He pushed Flash to the limit in a way no Zerg has done in many months.
Maybe cause its the first Bo5 Flash played in many months?
There's no logical reason to put Violet/Sea above Effort.
Effort this month was kicked out of both leagues losing to Calm, Firefist, and Ruby. Despite doing well in the PL, he also lost to Canata, Jangbi and Shine.
Sea has been doing well beating Jaedong, Hero, Yellow[ArnC]. Violet has big wins this month against Sea, Leta, and BeSt.
There's no logical reason to put Violet/Sea above Effort.
Effort this month was kicked out of both leagues losing to Calm, Firefist, and Ruby. Despite doing well in the PL, he also lost to Canata, Jangbi and Shine.
Sea has been doing well beating Jaedong, Hero, Yellow[ArnC]. Violet has big wins this month against Sea, Leta, and BeSt.
yeah, but Effort beat Violet on a zerg unfriendly map (its not imba, it just favours Protoss more) And why do you not count Sea/Violet's horrible losses?
Flash is such a monster. He is almost 100 elo points ahead of 2nd player. That's just insane...
1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Calm
I would be really surprised if the top 3 looked differently. Calm played great series but Jaedong is still in the MSL and I would give him a bit of benefit of doubt...
On January 02 2010 03:47 Lebesgue wrote: Flash is such a monster. He is almost 100 elo points ahead of 2nd player. That's just insane...
1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Calm
I would be really surprised if the top 3 looked differently. Calm played great series but Jaedong is still in the MSL and I would give him a bit of benefit of doubt...
100% Agreed. There is no real reason to put Calm above Jaedong, they both lost against Flash (who is 7-2 against the top 3 zergs lately), Jaedong is still in the MSL, and Jaedong had a higher rank last month. Calm would have had to do something extraordinary to pass up JD and no matter how great he played (and he played well) he didn't do enough to pass JD.
On January 02 2010 06:34 hyst.eric.al wrote: Just fill Flash in as 1-10 on this month's; it will save you trouble and tell what exactly has happened in the modern starcraft scene.
I don't care who makes the PR as long as it comes soon. I'm F5'ing TL every minute, eagerly awaiting the glorious sight of Flash being No1 for the third consecutive month.
Lol, you posted almost the same thing just before me.
There's no logical reason to put Violet/Sea above Effort.
Effort this month was kicked out of both leagues losing to Calm, Firefist, and Ruby. Despite doing well in the PL, he also lost to Canata, Jangbi and Shine.
Sea has been doing well beating Jaedong, Hero, Yellow[ArnC]. Violet has big wins this month against Sea, Leta, and BeSt.
I never understood this obsession with punishing people for dropping out of leagues, while praising people who failed to even qualify for them and have NOTHING but PL to practice for all month long, while others like Effort is stuck with a hellish schedule and still performing as good if not better in PL, while also having to do the Ace duty for his team. So if Effort, had failed in both offliners and never qualified for the SLs he would have been a sure thing for a 6-10spot just from his PL performance?
Also its lol how you bring out all of Efforts losses and none of his big wins, while you for the others only bring their wins and none of their losses. Also you use wins vs Best and Leta as big wins despite both performing horribly bad vsP lately....
Edit: Also congrats on using wins vs Yarnc (who is playing awfully and is 4-12 ins his last 16 games) and Hero (who is 2-9 in his last 11 ZvTs) as strong wins.
There's no logical reason to put Violet/Sea above Effort.
Effort this month was kicked out of both leagues losing to Calm, Firefist, and Ruby. Despite doing well in the PL, he also lost to Canata, Jangbi and Shine.
Sea has been doing well beating Jaedong, Hero, Yellow[ArnC]. Violet has big wins this month against Sea, Leta, and BeSt.
I never understood this obsession with punishing people for dropping out of leagues, while praising people who failed to even qualify for them and have NOTHING but PL to practice for all month long
I agree with this 100x and don't really understand it either.
As far as I'm concerned if you fail to even QUALIFY for EITHER league you better be pretty much undefeated, crushing all opposition, and handling ace duty in PL to even be considered for the PR.
EffOrt this month was kicked out of both leagues losing to Calm, FireFist, and RuBy. Despite doing well in the PL, he also lost to Canata, JangBi and Shine.
I never understood this obsession with punishing people for dropping out of leagues, while praising people who failed to even qualify for them and have NOTHING but PL to practice for all month long, while others like EffOrt is stuck with a hellish schedule and still performing as good if not better in PL, while also having to do the ace duty for his team. So if Effort, had failed in both offliners and never qualified for the SLs he would have been a sure thing for a 6-10spot just from his PL performance?
Also its lol how you bring out all of Efforts losses and none of his big wins, while you for the others only bring their wins and none of their losses. Also you use wins vs Best and Leta as big wins despite both performing horribly bad vsP lately....
Edit: Also congrats on using wins vs Yarnc (who is playing awfully and is 4-12 in his last 16 games) and hero (who is 2-9 in his last 11 ZvTs) as strong wins.
I don't know that your suppose to be congratulating me on if I make my points or not, I know your criticizing me, but your taking this WAY too seriously. I just thought Violets and Seas wins are better than Efforts.
You make good points none the less, I decided to put Sea at CNBC, Effort at #9, and Violet at #10.
Flash needs no explanation Jaedong was kicked out of the OSL but is cruising through the MSL and proleague going 13-4. Calm was a killer this month going 11-6. took a game out of flash and lost 3 times but gave a good fight. Kal is 10-3. very impressive and easily kicked out Saint from the MSL and is 1-0 vs Hwasin Stork is 10-4 taking a game off of Flash but was destroyed by Shine. Kwanro just kwanrolled Bogus 2-1 and is 1-0 vs Light in the Ro8 of the MSL Bisu died so much this month, getting manner cced by CuteAngel and getting kicked out of the MSL by BOGUS AND GUEMCHI.... but he still maintained a good record with 7-4 Shine is on a roll this month taking wins from Fantasy and effort and knocking Stork from the OSL causing a huge upset. Movie is 7-4 this month but is in the OSL and is going to face Shine, which is going to be a very close series Effort is 8-6.. getting kicked out of the MSL.. ruby took a game. okay thats fine his best match up is TvZ but wait... FIREFIST!? WTF?
oh my god. now that i put that TLPDized, it looks so awkward to see 1 terran on the list and that is Flash
Flash needs no explanation Calm was a killer this month going 11-6. took a game out of flash and lost 3 times but gave a good fight. Jaedong was kicked out of the OSL but is cruising through the MSL and proleague. Kal is 10-3. very impressive and easily kicked out Saint from the MSL and is 1-0 vs Hwasin Stork is 10-4 taking a game off of Flash but was destroyed by Shine. Kwanro just kwanrolled Bogus 2-1 and is 1-0 vs Light in the Ro8 of the MSL Bisu died so much this month, getting manner cced by CuteAngel and getting kicked out of the MSL by BOGUS AND GUEMCHI.... but he still maintained a good record with 7-4 Shine is on a roll this month taking wins from Fantasy and effort and knocking Stork from the OSL causing a huge upset. Movie is 7-4 this month but is in the OSL and is going to face Shine, which is going to be a very close series Effort is 8-6.. getting kicked out of the MSL.. ruby took a game. okay thats fine his best match up is TvZ but wait... FIREFIST!? WTF?
Calm above Jaedong?.. seriously? You say Calm was a killer going 11-6 (actually it's 11-5) but JD went 13-3 (14-3 if you want to include today's match but that doesn't matter cause it's January). You also mentioned JD got kicked out of OSL. What about Calm? He's out in BOTH leagues. Not that I'm dissing Calm, I like him, but I don't see how he's above JD atm.
Flash needs no explanation Calm was a killer this month going 11-6. took a game out of flash and lost 3 times but gave a good fight. Jaedong was kicked out of the OSL but is cruising through the MSL and proleague. Kal is 10-3. very impressive and easily kicked out Saint from the MSL and is 1-0 vs Hwasin Stork is 10-4 taking a game off of Flash but was destroyed by Shine. Kwanro just kwanrolled Bogus 2-1 and is 1-0 vs Light in the Ro8 of the MSL Bisu died so much this month, getting manner cced by CuteAngel and getting kicked out of the MSL by BOGUS AND GUEMCHI.... but he still maintained a good record with 7-4 Shine is on a roll this month taking wins from Fantasy and effort and knocking Stork from the OSL causing a huge upset. Movie is 7-4 this month but is in the OSL and is going to face Shine, which is going to be a very close series Effort is 8-6.. getting kicked out of the MSL.. ruby took a game. okay thats fine his best match up is TvZ but wait... FIREFIST!? WTF?
Calm above Jaedong?.. seriously? You say Calm was a killer going 11-6 (actually it's 11-5) but JD went 13-3 (14-3 if you want to include today's match but that doesn't matter cause it's January). You also mentioned JD got kicked out of OSL. What about Calm? He's out in BOTH leagues. Not that I'm dissing Calm, I like him, but I don't see how he's above JD atm.
1. Obvious. 2. Yeah, Jaedong fell apart against Flash. However, he sits at number 2 for simply rolling over everyone else this month; his only losses have been against Flash and Sea. 3. Calm, one of my favorite players, has picked up the slack from his abysmal performance last month. Like Jaedong, he crumbled under Flash, but I feel his gameplay may have been underrated a bit in the series because of Flash's unreal play. His mutalisks had to face Flash's marine control and his guardians were unsupported because of Flash's scourge interception. 4. Shine has faced incredibly stiff competition in the OSL and is miraculously still alive. His late-game management is questionable, but he executes his aggressive style in a way where he hasn't had to rely on it. (To be honest, 4 seems a bit high and I expect him to fall next month.) 5. Stork has looked solid this past month. A few minor mistakes ousted him out of the OSL, but his games has shown he's a top 5 PR player. 6. Like Stork, Kal has Just been playing solid Starcraft. 7. I don't doubt Bisu's skill, but unfortunately his results didn't match them this month with unexpected losses in the MSL and PL. Still a strong player, though. 8. Movie plays inconsistently. But he is generally a strong progamer and has a reasonable chance in reaching the OSL finals. 9. Kwanro's is in great position in the MSL and has done decently in the PL. A low position on the PR should make the pikachu zerg happy. 10. I had some trouble deciding whether ZerO or EffOrt should take this spot. I'm still not sure, really.
Calm ahead of Jaedong: Calm may not be alive in leagues any more, but you have to keep in mind that the OSL is further along than the OSL. Calm made the quarter finals of a Star League which JD was knocked out of, and Calm was likely focusing mainly on the OSL making his performance in the MSL less important an indicator. Also... compare the Calm vs Flash and the JD vs Flash series, Flash is this month's yardstick in my opinion.
Shine > Stork: Shine is still alive in the OSL, he beat Stork and a lot of other big names to get there.
Bisu 9 or 10 at best: Just take a look at the TLPD.
On January 02 2010 19:06 Orbifold wrote: My thoughts on the next PR
Flash in number 1: Duh
Calm ahead of Jaedong: Calm may not be alive in leagues any more, but you have to keep in mind that the OSL is further along than the OSL. Calm made the quarter finals of a Star League which JD was knocked out of, and Calm was likely focusing mainly on the OSL making his performance in the MSL less important an indicator. Also... compare the Calm vs Flash and the JD vs Flash series, Flash is this month's yardstick in my opinion.
Shine > Stork: Shine is still alive in the OSL, he beat Stork and a lot of other big names to get there.
Bisu 9 or 10 at best: Just take a look at the TLPD.
You must have missed the most recent recent Calm vs Fantasy game.
I want to squeeze about 6 players into the four slots remaining in #7-10...Really, EffOrt, Bisu, Kwanro, Kal, Sea...but no idea which four or in which order.
Fortunately, I'm not the one who has to make the PR, so I don't have to make hard decisions, I just get to complain about them!
I do think Effort and Kal need to be in there at least...especially Effort, he has so much promise and his record has been so consistently good.
It would be nice to get a PR that isn't gonna be really late. ):
edit ^^^^ Kal and Kwanro, obviously, since they're both in the MSL, up one game, and are doing pretty well in PL, whereas Sea/Really/Effort/Bisu aren't.
The only thing that separates Sea, Bisu, Really and Effort from each other, since none are in leagues, are quality of play in PL along with overall record in it.
1. Obvious. 2. Yeah, Jaedong fell apart against Flash. However, he sits at number 2 for simply rolling over everyone else this month; his only losses have been against Flash and Sea. 3. Calm, one of my favorite players, has picked up the slack from his abysmal performance last month. Like Jaedong, he crumbled under Flash, but I feel his gameplay may have been underrated a bit in the series because of Flash's unreal play. His mutalisks had to face Flash's marine control and his guardians were unsupported because of Flash's scourge interception. 4. Shine has faced incredibly stiff competition in the OSL and is miraculously still alive. His late-game management is questionable, but he executes his aggressive style in a way where he hasn't had to rely on it. (To be honest, 4 seems a bit high and I expect him to fall next month.) 5. Stork has looked solid this past month. A few minor mistakes ousted him out of the OSL, but his games has shown he's a top 5 PR player. 6. Like Stork, Kal has Just been playing solid Starcraft. 7. I don't doubt Bisu's skill, but unfortunately his results didn't match them this month with unexpected losses in the MSL and PL. Still a strong player, though. 8. Movie plays inconsistently. But he is generally a strong progamer and has a reasonable chance in reaching the OSL finals. 9. Kwanro's is in great position in the MSL and has done decently in the PL. A low position on the PR should make the pikachu zerg happy. 10. I had some trouble deciding whether ZerO or EffOrt should take this spot. I'm still not sure, really.
Zero has been in a slump i see no reason as to why he should be on this list.
Zero wins 10 games then losses 10 games again, after that he decides to win 10 again qualify for all leauges does well in proleauge and then lose 10 again and drop from leauges and plays horrible in PL. Wouldnt call it a slump more like his standard play patern.
On December 20 2009 04:20 ghostWriter wrote: 57.58% is pretty darn good when you consider that TvP is nigh impossible to play. Arbiters are the most imbalanced units ever. There was a recent game where the terran had a huge army (I think it was darkelf vs best) and at the end, darkelf's huge, fully upgraded, well positioned army was nullified by 5 arbiters that stasised the entire thing. Recall is also ridiculously overpowered. How can you play a game when your army has like no mobility and you have to worry about half the protoss army killing your supply depots and factory while you are only halfway to their expansion? Even if you put up turrets and mines, you can't cover your entire base.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/669/flashisnothuman.jpg)
. He had a losing record last month, and was eliminated in the Ro32 of the MSL as the reigning champion. Even if he is one of the ten best players right now, he certainly isn't performing like it. I was going to defend fantasy, even though I really don't like him, but after watching him get rolled by T-bizzle, I will not. While JD's 6-2 record isn't particularly overwhelming, he did win 2 ace matches, and his OSL game, so no complaints about his ranking. I feel like Best was worthy of being ranked, but there's no need for me to fuss.
![[image loading]](http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6495/balance.png)
![[image loading]](http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/328/msljpg.jpg)
