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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blind* SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Amen. My heart has already been broken, my spirit withered, and my faith withdrawn. This will be the last post that I make as a dissident of SC2, because fighting as a disorganized and therefore effectively one-man army against this change just reminds me of the old geezers who always talk about "how good it was back in the day" while us youngsters laughed at their primitive ways. I am now that old geezer, waving the banner of SC, but might as well be wetting my pants and be living in a state of permanent senility for all that it matters. Best of luck to SC2, I would be happy if I was to be proven wrong by your development (it cannot be ignored that the BW we have today only came after years of patching).
+ Show Spoiler +I would be twice as happy however if the failure of the game revitalized people's interest in the war of Broods, and made an explosion in the progame scene once again... Somehow, I think this is where even I have to admit this is fantasy u_u; RIP BW.
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On July 28 2010 17:18 infinity2k9 wrote:
The whole e-Sports aspect of SC2 seems so forced. If its viable for e-Sports it naturally will become one, not from the power of will alone. I can't imagine it ever reaching the height of BW simply because as a spectator sport its just not clear enough to a casual viewer. The name can't make it big, from what it sounds like the reception to the game in Korea has been less than enthusiastic already. BW was the right game at the right time, as mentioned on the cusp of broadband internet penetration and happened to run on any computer as well. Now people's attention is divided between many other games too, such as MMORPGs... the market has moved on. I imagine the situation will turn out similar to Warcraft 3 which ended up more popular competitively in other places rather than Korea. And without Korea all you will have is another niche scene.
BW is just as clear to the casual user. The only reason people know what's going on is because they're already familiar with the game. Over time SC2 will be the same.
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On July 29 2010 00:09 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blind* SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are. Amen. My heart has already been broken, my spirit withered, and my faith withdrawn. This will be the last post that I make as a dissident of SC2, because fighting as a disorganized and therefore effectively one-man army against this change just reminds me of the old geezers who always talk about "how good it was back in the day" while us youngsters laughed at their primitive ways. I am now that old geezer, waving the banner of SC, but might as well be wetting my pants and be living in a state of permanent senility for all that it matters. Best of luck to SC2, I would be happy if I was to be proven wrong by your development (it cannot be ignored that the BW we have today only came after years of patching). + Show Spoiler +I would be twice as happy however if the failure of the game revitalized people's interest in the war of Broods, and made an explosion in the progame scene once again... Somehow, I think this is where even I have to admit this is fantasy u_u; RIP BW.
As a real BW fan I am thrilled that SC2 is going to increase sponsorship raise the quality of pro-gaming lifestyle. There are tons of articles on how hard it is to be a pro-gamer. I don't see why you'd prefer the old game with the progamers' eating-raman-noodles-at-4AM-while-getting-paid-3-digit-salaries-and-no-bunks lifestyle rather than the new game with the promise of a brighter future for enterprising progamers and more cash for the older gamers as well. One's more enjoyable for you sure, but which is more enjoyable for Lee Jaedong?
All good things must come to an end, and there's still enough Brood War out there that you couldn't possibly have watched all the VODs. Enjoy those old VODs and be happy that there's a new future for progaming, one with actual money involved.
And if SC BW does prove to be the superior game (which I think it is), there will still be a competitive scene, even if it's not the huge korean one. Just look Super Smash: when Brawl came out, plenty of people stuck with the superior yet dated Melee.
The best part is, if SC 1 proves to be the better game, then all the hype about SC 2 will work to it's advantage, if it spreads awareness about esports in the foreign community. But that's only really a minor/secondary concern.
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On July 28 2010 23:56 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 23:46 lisherwin wrote:we are bidding a fond farewell to Brood War, at least as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports I guess I just don't see why we're necessarily bidding a good-bye to BW as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. SC2 has its merits, but I think we're far far from passing the throne to SC2 as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. It's a sensitive time for the SC1-SC2 divide we cannot say much about SC2 as a e-Sport game comparative to SC1 until we wait longer to see how the game progresses. I mean hell, its just been a day since SC2's release (after a volatile couple months of beta). Two big reasons: because it's new, and because it's popular. Even if the essence of the game isn't as good as BW's, the game has more popularity around the world right now than BW does, and that means that money and sponsorships will follow. Advertisers and sponsors don't care about how good a game is, they just care if it brings eyeballs. And SC2 will certainly bring eyeballs.
Sure, SC2 is drawing larger audiences than most non-SC RTS games, but that's a consequence of the release of any RTS that bears the name "Starcraft X". The clamor of any SC2 progaming tournament held so far, as I've seen, doesn't come close to the uproar of the gathering of fans for something like, say, the Korean Air OSLs. Even in SC1's supposedly weakest stage of its lifetime, the fans are still crazier for the Korean progamers than they are for the most dominant SC2 players we have now. But please, throwing money into a legacy-dependent entrepreneurial venture, like SC2, is one thing and an everlasting, enjoyable game to watch and play is another. The latter is what produces a permanent and dominant e-Sports game.
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Like I said, if SC2 can gather as much audience as BW has in its early stages, and hold that dominance for a significant amount of time (like for how long BW was in town before it was declared a permanent and dominant e-Sport game), then this OP is valid. Otherwise, there is still some transition period that we need to wait before we can make the claim, with no speculation, that SC2 is now the uncontested ruler of e-Sports.
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Not to be a drama-llama, but I think there should definitely be a post addressing the SC1/SC2 divide. I know many, including me, have this ominous feeling. Over a short period of time, we've developed a strong affinity to the players and the teams of SC1. Even if there will be an eventual transition to SC2, players like us don't want to lose the bond that TL has helped us develop with the progaming scene in Korea and with a stronger, essence-filled game. Once that bond is broken, TL might just see a steep decline of participation in TL by the SC1 loyalists.
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On July 29 2010 00:06 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blindless SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Posts such as this asks some good questions about the future of the korean scene and the future of both games and some other good points but like countless before it, it only shines light on the positive conclusions such as having Starcraft 2 pro-scenes in Europe and North America to the likes of the Korean Starcraft: Broodwar scene. You must look at both sides of the spectrum. For example: Starcraft 2 could kill the Starcraft: Broodwar scene in Korea and then fail miserably and leave us with nothing. Don't get me wrong. Starcraft 2 is a reality and I hope it enjoys equal or better longevity and success as Broodwar but mindlessly hyping it is not the way to achieve this. We must...
Question Everything. There have been countless people who tell us the exact opposite (that our SC2 coverage is too critical). Do you realize how much of a shitstorm we'd stir up if we made a "SC2: The Possible Death of BW?" newspost? We're trying to find a happy medium, but in general it's better to criticize things into a positive light (and even then, so many people get stuck with the criticism and flame you for being nostalgic about BW).
This is the same problem journalists have been facing for years, and I really don't want to see TL taking the same path that most news organizations do upon gaining prominence. Obviously with anything opinion-based you're going to have people from multiple sides claiming you're on the opposite side. This kind of criticism is going to come regardless of what you do, and that's why it's important to strive for the truth above anything else. There should really be no 'happy medium', as the reality behind any situation is not usually found nestled evenly between opposing sides. It's important to give everything it's proper weight.
Having said that, I would hope TL's role in reporting on SC2 does stay skeptical as G5 suggests it should. Obviously, no one is asking TL to make 'SC2 sucks' pieces, but after years of hype, and months of beta, I hope we can come back to earth soon.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On July 29 2010 00:22 SerpentFlame wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2010 00:09 Murderotica wrote:On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blind* SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are. Amen. My heart has already been broken, my spirit withered, and my faith withdrawn. This will be the last post that I make as a dissident of SC2, because fighting as a disorganized and therefore effectively one-man army against this change just reminds me of the old geezers who always talk about "how good it was back in the day" while us youngsters laughed at their primitive ways. I am now that old geezer, waving the banner of SC, but might as well be wetting my pants and be living in a state of permanent senility for all that it matters. Best of luck to SC2, I would be happy if I was to be proven wrong by your development (it cannot be ignored that the BW we have today only came after years of patching). + Show Spoiler +I would be twice as happy however if the failure of the game revitalized people's interest in the war of Broods, and made an explosion in the progame scene once again... Somehow, I think this is where even I have to admit this is fantasy u_u; RIP BW. As a real BW fan I am thrilled that SC2 is going to increase sponsorship raise the quality of pro-gaming lifestyle. There are tons of articles on how hard it is to be a pro-gamer. I don't see why you'd prefer the old game with the progamers' eating-raman-noodles-at-4AM-while-getting-paid-3-digit-salaries-and-no-bunks lifestyle rather than the new game with the promise of a brighter future for enterprising progamers and more cash for the older gamers as well. One's more enjoyable for you sure, but which is more enjoyable for Lee Jaedong? All good things must come to an end, and there's still enough Brood War out there that you couldn't possibly have watched all the VODs. Enjoy those old VODs and be happy that there's a new future for progaming, one with actual money involved. And if SC BW does prove to be the superior game (which I think it is), there will still be a competitive scene, even if it's not the huge korean one. Just look Super Smash: when Brawl came out, plenty of people stuck with the superior yet dated Melee. The best part is, if SC 1 proves to be the better game, then all the hype about SC 2 will work to it's advantage, if it spreads awareness about esports in the foreign community. But that's only really a minor/secondary concern.
If shit was really so tough for Jaedong, he wouldn't still be a progamer. There are other things that people can do in any country. The reason he puts up with it is because he CHOOSES to. They are not slaves. They are rational people like us, who put up with the downsides of our career choices simply because the upsides are so great.
Watching old VODs is not the same as following current leagues and watching the evolution of the game. VODs from the old era are nigh-unwatchable for me because even I have greater skill than those players now. VODs for the transition era are interesting, but I have watched at least 90% of all recommended "good" games. Even BW has boring and bad games. I'm not interested in watching those. I am interested in watching good games. I am interested in watching good new games.
The problem to me is that it seems impossible for both scenes to exist together, because even if SC2 is not successful, it will take away the funding from SC1, and SC1 will die. If SC2 fails, what are the chances that that money will go back to SC1? Sure the market in general will have increased for SC2 from SC1, but I believe the majority of the funding will come from current sponsors pushing for something new and refreshing. People already invested in SC1 will have to ride the wave and move onto SC2 for better or for worse.
Like I said I don't want to talk about the downsides of SC2 anymore. I'm done being a vocal hater, I'll resort to being a delusional hermit.
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New players entering the scene
New, beautiful and up to date graphics engine providing shiny things to an audience that loves them
Integrated match making system that can only improve to bring amateurs and pros alike to a competitive gaming ladder
Revitalized interest from people who played SC and BW in their hayday (think, 98-03 era when it wasn't so outdated) --- this is the #1 thing imo. So many people I am reconnecting with that haven't played SC since 5+ years ago who have picked up sc2.
Seriously, I know people don't like to ruin the status quo, but sc2's release is only going to bring in more people to the scene. Games that survive 13 years of play like SC/BW are rare, and great, but it is old. 13 year old game engines cannot stand the test of time that long and continue to grow. SC2 has been out less than a week, give it some time. SC/BW took years before it took off competitively and its successor is still far too young to claim either the heavyweight title or to predict its future years from now
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sick writeup 
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On July 28 2010 22:51 Arrian wrote:
Yes. I was paid $15.42 by Rob Pardo to promote SC2 on TL.net. And what a sweet $15.42 it was.
I spent it on booze and loose women.
Where do you live and where are these women, that are less than 15 bucks? 
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On July 29 2010 01:05 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:51 Arrian wrote:
Yes. I was paid $15.42 by Rob Pardo to promote SC2 on TL.net. And what a sweet $15.42 it was.
I spent it on booze and loose women. Where do you live and where are these women, that are less than 15 bucks?
He was being sarcastic...
+ Show Spoiler +You were being sarcastic, right?
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nice read, including the comments. liked takkara's analysis about poker's keyfacts to success.
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Fantastic read!
Beautiful!
Thanks, Arrian and the rest of the TL staff.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blindless SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Posts such as this asks some good questions about the future of the korean scene and the future of both games and some other good points but like countless before it, it only shines light on the positive conclusions such as having Starcraft 2 pro-scenes in Europe and North America to the likes of the Korean Starcraft: Broodwar scene. You must look at both sides of the spectrum. For example: Starcraft 2 could kill the Starcraft: Broodwar scene in Korea and then fail miserably and leave us with nothing. Don't get me wrong. Starcraft 2 is a reality and I hope it enjoys equal or better longevity and success as Broodwar but mindlessly hyping it is not the way to achieve this. We must...
Question Everything.
thank you G5 for being one of the rare foreigners to keep a critical look about SC2
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wtf, when you said story time i thought it meant i would go to sleep satisfied. this just left me excited, with a larger desire to play the game. good thing i didn't read this at night.
but enough of my fanciful desires. i do believe that scbw and sc2 can coexist, but the chances of that are pretty slim. for the pros and people who enjoy watching extremely high level play, scbw is the way to go. limited hotkeying, a developed community with a plethora of strategies, and glitches that have become standard (muta micro, glitching units past minerals, etc.) all make the skill cap that much harder to reach. for lower level players (casual and newcomers to sc (limited to no bw background)) sc2 takes some mechanics from wc3 and makes it that much easier to pop into. MBS, infinite unit selection, automine take away things that at low level play, just don't seem too important. I mean how much should your skill be defined by your ability to set a worker to mine late in the game? But on the flip side, it's exactly these small things that define the well-trained commander of bw - with their ridiculous multitask and innate timing senses. So from what i'm seeing and reading, it'll be kind of like "watch bw for epic, play sc2 for fun." Then again, if we step back and look at that mentality, the bw community won't grow much and sc2 will have to go somewhere... Anyways, these are just my thoughts.
Once again good read, hope to see more of this kind of stuff. And for those of you looking for more depth, an eSports oriented game, and that epic feel of bw, Plexa's post "Filling the Void" does a nice job bringing in ideas and the comments have lead me to do a lot of hopeful thinking.
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On July 28 2010 18:37 tree.hugger wrote:
It's not the idea of Sc2 becoming big world-wide and in Korea that worries me, it's the idea that the mere presumption of Sc2's succession (these articles) will be enough to cripple what we already have, yet are no guarantee of future success.
Why couldn't (for example) Sc2 and BW have competitive scenes side-by-side? What about the current BW scene makes it so uninspiring that we're willing to ship it off, and what about the current Sc2 scene makes it so fantastic that we can already start talking about it's inherent ascension?
It's all a potemkin village, and instead of artificially saying things like "bid a fond farewell to BW" and risk making it so, we should be positive and realistic about Sc2's chances, and see what happens naturally. We're cutting down the house we've already build to clear land for a new house of uncertain size and quality. Where will we live if the second house collapses?
This is the best Ive ever heard! So true!
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On July 29 2010 01:21 swanized wrote:thank you G5 for being one of the rare foreigners to keep a critical look about SC2
It's almost like there is something that keeps you from seeing reality. Both TL and foreign players have been highly critical about SC2 in lots of articles that you can find all over the place. How come statements like these still pop up when TL has been a breeding ground for things to improve about SC2? Both in forums and newssection.
Basically every single good player I talk to says BW is a better game. But it's also 12 years old and these guys have played it over and over and over. They also all switch to SC2 because they feel it is the future, because they love gaming so much, because they love competitive play so much, because they love a new challenge, because they love to make money from the passion that they have. For all these reasons they are switching to the newer game. They aren't making $200k a year like Flash/Jaedong that will keep them going forever in BW. They have to make decisions in their lives which I think is something we can all respect.
Despite all that, I have yet to see any of those guys claim SC2 is the better game. Everyone is critical of it, but it is still going to be the big thing in years to come.
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On July 28 2010 23:51 Takkara wrote:
1) Chat is not hard for them to add, and yes they choose to not add it originally. Not in dispute. However, now that they want to add it, it needs to be scheduled. We don't know their schedule, but I can imagine it was and will continue to be a little full. They'll get to it, they just can't hack it into the client in a week or even a month.
2) No indication that cross-region will cost anything. That's just paranoia until they announce a fee. In fact, I believe they've said it'll be completely free, but I can't find the post right now.
3) The community team's job is to bring you the words of the development team. They meet with the development team and bring their words to the community. On issues of this much importance, the community team doesn't speak unless the development team/marketing gives them the thumbs up about precisely what they're saying. There's no difference between a community team member saying something and a developer saying it when it relates to something like this.
This is getting besides the point but actually in an interview they said cross region probably could be done with an extra fee, i'm certain of it. As if its an extra feature they are oh so generously giving you the opportunity to use. And hacking in some form of IRC would literally take less than a week. The communities people's job is to appease people that's why i wouldn't quote them directly about anything. The 'working as intended' quote was from a community forum's person in the first place.
I don't know why you are so quick to 100% trust Blizzard doing everything right, it's just an exact example of what i was saying regarding people just constantly assuring everyone that it will all be great and fixed in the future. Bnet 2.0 will be fixed completely with every feature everyone asked for, eSports will evolve and be huge everywhere, micro mechanics will appear make the game actually interesting etc. Constantly it's just people saying things are going to happen, everyone constantly saying 'give it time' when its not necessarily certain it will.
On July 29 2010 00:15 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 17:18 infinity2k9 wrote:
The whole e-Sports aspect of SC2 seems so forced. If its viable for e-Sports it naturally will become one, not from the power of will alone. I can't imagine it ever reaching the height of BW simply because as a spectator sport its just not clear enough to a casual viewer. The name can't make it big, from what it sounds like the reception to the game in Korea has been less than enthusiastic already. BW was the right game at the right time, as mentioned on the cusp of broadband internet penetration and happened to run on any computer as well. Now people's attention is divided between many other games too, such as MMORPGs... the market has moved on. I imagine the situation will turn out similar to Warcraft 3 which ended up more popular competitively in other places rather than Korea. And without Korea all you will have is another niche scene. BW is just as clear to the casual user. The only reason people know what's going on is because they're already familiar with the game. Over time SC2 will be the same.
Um BW is objectively clearer to a spectator, there can't be an argument here. Not in terms of understanding by graphics, but the presentation in turn helps the understanding. Big colourful sprites at 640x480, it's very easy to follow what is happening. You cannot try and tell me SC2 is anywhere near the same, just watch the average battle, all the projectiles and effects along with the fact its 3D. It's not due to familiarity its just an obvious difference in clarity.
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On July 29 2010 01:33 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 23:51 Takkara wrote:
1) Chat is not hard for them to add, and yes they choose to not add it originally. Not in dispute. However, now that they want to add it, it needs to be scheduled. We don't know their schedule, but I can imagine it was and will continue to be a little full. They'll get to it, they just can't hack it into the client in a week or even a month.
2) No indication that cross-region will cost anything. That's just paranoia until they announce a fee. In fact, I believe they've said it'll be completely free, but I can't find the post right now.
3) The community team's job is to bring you the words of the development team. They meet with the development team and bring their words to the community. On issues of this much importance, the community team doesn't speak unless the development team/marketing gives them the thumbs up about precisely what they're saying. There's no difference between a community team member saying something and a developer saying it when it relates to something like this. This is getting besides the point but actually in an interview they said cross region probably could be done with an extra fee, i'm certain of it. As if its an extra feature they are oh so generously giving you the opportunity to use. And hacking in some form of IRC would literally take less than a week. The communities people's job is to appease people that's why i wouldn't quote them directly about anything. The 'working as intended' quote was from a community forum's person in the first place. I don't know why you are so quick to 100% trust Blizzard doing everything right, it's just an exact example of what i was saying regarding people just constantly assuring everyone that it will all be great and fixed in the future. Bnet 2.0 will be fixed completely with every feature everyone asked for, eSports will evolve and be huge everywhere, micro mechanics will appear make the game actually interesting etc. Constantly it's just people saying things are going to happen, everyone constantly saying 'give it time' when its not necessarily certain it will.
http://sclegacy.com/news/23-sc2/755-blizzard-responds-to-player-concerns
You can read the words for themselves. They haven't said it will cost anything. They haven't said explicitly it will be free, either. People suspect it will because they mentioned "Account Management" which has typically been used for pay features for WoW.
As I've said many times, there's plenty of things to complain about that don't involve paranoia or guesswork. Let's stick to things we know.
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EPT
