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Starcraft 2 is not the successor. It is a competitor.
The whole imagery of passing the torch, and especially the last paragraphs of this article, read like anti-BW propaganda. I'm really saddened to read things like this on TL of all places, I would've hoped to see more cautious approach to the dynamics of what is going to happen between BW and SC2 instead of entirely jumping bandwagons. It appears that this article is advocating change for the sake of change, promoting switching over for the sake of SC2 being the new thing and leaving BW to the sharks, swapping it for an unfulfilled, uncertain promise of a continued legacy in the guise of a new game.
Why not look at SC2 on its own current merits, which to me are far from warranting unquestioning praise or abandonment of our first love.
I'm all for optimism, I doubt SC2 would even have a chance without an excited fanbase being hyped about it, but please, PLEASE, don't spit at BW claiming it's stagnant and outdated like this article does to do it. I realise this is SC2 coverage and such is going to be very pro-SC2, but to me that is even more a reason to try to avoid being compared to BW. Imagine if all the BW articles on this site were to make fun of how boring SC2 is to watch or how the units are uninspired and dull just to keep interest in the original alive. If this were any other site in the world I might even be inclined to believe this approach to the issue was a part of some twisted "business plan", but I refuse to think that little of this site and am just going to assume this is just the indiscretion of one writer.
StarCraft: Brood War will coexist with StarCraft 2. Certainly on TL this will be the case, at least I haven't really seen anything hinting otherwise, and although international BW has obviously taken a huge hit in popularity, only time will tell what will happen in Korea. I may not love how SC2 turned out, at least I don't like how it is in this stage of it's development, but I do want the best for it for the sake of esports. If you ask me the best scenario would be the StarCraft proscene continuing to thrive and grow in South Korea unaffected by this new upstart, while SC2 perhaps taking the Western World by storm. But this is just me daydreaming, and I'm not going to write an article portraying it as a reality of things to come.
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When I heard sc2 was going to come out, I knew the game would be one of the following choices.
1) it would suck so hard that people would stick to bw
2) it would be epic awesomeness and a perfect sequel to the best game ever
3) it would be average and half the people playing bw would switch over, effectively dividing the community
I don't mind either option 1 (strong community behind an awesome game), or 2 (same reason as 1), but option 3 is what i feared the most. And I think that, as it turns out, will happen
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I have to agree with G5 and Djin. SC2 still owns compared to non-blizzard RTS but its been overhyped, first by new users who joined purely for SC2 and probably never even followed BW, and second by the foreign progamers who just want to make some money and are trying to justify switching to an untested and most likely inferior game. In my opinion SC2 isn't even that competitively viable because the skill ceiling is too low.
Until the game has proven itself, you can't simply say that SC2 is the successor.
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So what creates eSports?
eSports is created by a common interest of a significantly large group of gamers. If you have 500 people watching and/or playing, someone will start creating a competition around it, attract sponsors, broadcast... and the scene will thrive.
So if there is still a significant group of gamers out there who dislike SC2 and prefer BW and want to play it, watch it and enjoy the competition around it, there will certainly be someone who notices this and creates a tournament for it.
Of course, decisions by already established tournament organizers have a certain effect on communities, but don't think that someone is taking something away from you. And just judging by the interest SC2 has sparked in the past days and past weeks: Every bit of attention around this game is perfectly justified, given the numbers of people playing in tournaments or watching broadcasts.
Disclosure: I work for Turtle Entertainment, operator of the Electronic Sports League (ESL) and this is solely my private opinion.
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On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blindless SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Posts such as this asks some good questions about the future of the korean scene and the future of both games and some other good points but like countless before it, it only shines light on the positive conclusions such as having Starcraft 2 pro-scenes in Europe and North America to the likes of the Korean Starcraft: Broodwar scene. You must look at both sides of the spectrum. For example: Starcraft 2 could kill the Starcraft: Broodwar scene in Korea and then fail miserably and leave us with nothing. Don't get me wrong. Starcraft 2 is a reality and I hope it enjoys equal or better longevity and success as Broodwar but mindlessly hyping it is not the way to achieve this. We must...
Question Everything.
Agreed 100%, and this is what I've been saying from about a month into beta onward. There were some serious concerns (and ones way beyond the traditional fare of chat rooms, regional play, etc) early on, and that's when I realized that people were more interested in even making the beta an esport than they were interested in critiquing the game - one of the main points of being in a beta in the first place. It's definitely the case that people who have incentive to will do their best to make SC2 succeed regardless of the actual quality of the game, and I think that's what we've been seeing.
On July 28 2010 17:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I see some people saying you can't force an esport as if it is unsure whether SC2 will be one, which needs a quick reply. BW was not forced as an esport that's true. Esports didn't exist when BW was launched. Because of this BW followed a natural path of competitive popularity into esports. Creating an industry for others to follow, for which they should be very thankful. That does not mean that this is the standard for how games become esports, at all. It is simply BW's path to esports and nothing else and won't be applicable in this new situation.
SC2 by default of being the new Blizzard game will be launched into esports and will stay there because it is a better game than every other non-BW RTS out there. It doesn't need time to prove this it is obvious from day one. Every big tournament has picked it up already. That includes tournaments that were not interested in BW (for the wrong reasons). SC2 has no games to compete with and crushes all opposition outside of Korea. It will stick around as an esport for a long, long time.
If BW had been launched into a world where esports already existed it would be in the same situation.
In actuality, SC2 is not as big as it is because it's 'obvious' that it's better than any RTS out there aside from BW. That's just not inherently true, and I personally find RTS games like Dawn of War more interesting to play when I don't want to play BW. To me, SC2 is just a sexed-up - yet competitively gimped - version of BW. Even though I know when I play DoW it's a competitively inferior game to BW (but what isn't?), the game's unique elements keep it interesting. SC2 has nothing in that department, and so I'm left with a prettier game that fails to be exciting and rewarding in the ways that BW still is.
You get it right when you say that it's position is 'by default of being the new Blizzard game', though. That's most certainly the case, and we are seeing a drastically different side of eSports here - one fueled more by the immediate interest in a game than by it's merits. Blizzard is a hugely popular company, and by default any game they release will generate a huge amount of interest. Where there is interest, there is a possibility for eSports, and so irregardless of the competitive nature of a Blizzard game, it can become an eSport.
But eSports have until this point been built mostly from the ground up - by the games' ability to reward the more competitive players, and at the same time keep them interested. We're not still so interested in BW today because it was made by Blizzard, or because of it's graphics, or because someone is selling it to us - we're interested in the game because it's incredibly rewarding competitively, and as a result very fun to watch and play. We're interested because we do play the game, and we know just how hard it is to be as good as Flash and Jaedong are. If BW hadn't had this limitless skill ceiling, it never would have gotten as far as it has, even if eSports had been already established at that time.
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enjoyed reading it , thx for your effort
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I remember when i was playing 1st time SC i wanted to play Zergs but my mom and brother said i cant play em becouse they are scary ^^ (i was 7)
and my 1st look at WC 1 or 2 was on playstation i was pro there :D
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When i said forced as an eSport i meant a long-time successful one, and mainly in Korea and broadcast on TV because of the content of the article. I'm sure it will be at WCG and plenty of foreigner tournaments regardless. Of course there is games immediately played in tournaments by default anyway, but not all of them stand the test of time. And as for the people 'forcing' it i meant mainly people in the community.
Also what feels forced to me is people playing it immediately just to become a pro and make money not for the fun of it. You read quotes from people like iloveoov, who just loved the game. He was happy just to be in a team house so he could play the game all day. Or i bet any of the top foreigners, were just playing on Bnet for years and having fun and happened to get good at the game, not jumping straight into laddering 8 hours a day for a sole purpose. I wonder how many of the current top players will just give up playing all the time if/when they get overtaken and theres a top tier of players winning everything.
This is all to be expected of course but still i don't really like it. Some reasonably high level players i know already burned out on beta and say they find laddering a chore. It makes me wonder what some of the other players opinions really are. You see a lot of generic comments 'yeah its a good game its got potential' but has any top player been REALLY enthusiastic about it? It feels like a lot of people are just trying to reassure us and maybe themselves that this will be a good game rather than a genuine appreciation for it.
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On July 28 2010 19:53 Bash wrote:
Starcraft 2 is not the successor. It is a competitor.
The whole imagery of passing the torch, and especially the last paragraphs of this article, read like anti-BW propaganda. I'm really saddened to read things like this on TL of all places, I would've hoped to see more cautious approach to the dynamics of what is going to happen between BW and SC2 instead of entirely jumping bandwagons. It appears that this article is advocating change for the sake of change, promoting switching over for the sake of SC2 being the new thing and leaving BW to the sharks, swapping it for an unfulfilled, uncertain promise of a continued legacy in the guise of a new game.
Why not look at SC2 on its own current merits, which to me are far from warranting unquestioning praise or abandonment of our first love.
I'm all for optimism, I doubt SC2 would even have a chance without an excited fanbase being hyped about it, but please, PLEASE, don't spit at BW claiming it's stagnant and outdated like this article does to do it. I realise this is SC2 coverage and such is going to be very pro-SC2, but to me that is even more a reason to try to avoid being compared to BW. Imagine if all the BW articles on this site were to make fun of how boring SC2 is to watch or how the units are uninspired and dull just to keep interest in the original alive. If this were any other site in the world I might even be inclined to believe this approach to the issue was a part of some twisted "business plan", but I refuse to think that little of this site and am just going to assume this is just the indiscretion of one writer.
StarCraft: Brood War will coexist with StarCraft 2. Certainly on TL this will be the case, at least I haven't really seen anything hinting otherwise, and although international BW has obviously taken a huge hit in popularity, only time will tell what will happen in Korea. I may not love how SC2 turned out, at least I don't like how it is in this stage of it's development, but I do want the best for it for the sake of esports. If you ask me the best scenario would be the StarCraft proscene continuing to thrive and grow in South Korea unaffected by this new upstart, while SC2 perhaps taking the Western World by storm. But this is just me daydreaming, and I'm not going to write an article portraying it as a reality of things to come.
The truth is that the popularity of BW hasn't really been increasing a whole lot for the last few years. Weather this means that BW will die out or if it has just reached a plateau at which it will continue to remain for years is anybody's guess. I believe that the BW scene will never expand or increase in popularity again, and I don't think that is an absurdly overblown belief. Most all casuals or people who don't know anything about the game will see the 2D sprites, scoff, and look to SC2.
I can tell that you still don't believe that SC2 has is as great a game as BW, which, right now, I would have to agree with. But again, the truth is that a large number of Korean pros have expressed interest in the new game, some of which have already switched over and have found a surprisingly complex and competitive game. With two full expansions to come over the next few years to build on top of the standing game that we have now (which I think is better than SC1 without BW), a virtually perfect balance is almost guaranteed. Casuals will see the flashy graphics and effects and will be attracted like moths, increasing the fan base. All of these things point toward a game that will be VERY successful in esports.
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On July 28 2010 15:59 sc2lime wrote:
HAHA, I love the stone/Bnet 2.0 comparison. Great article!
Second that =). Never knew a stone were that advanced!
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Having come to Starcraft through the SC2 beta I have to admit I missed out on SC/Broodwar and reading this I can see that I missed a hell of a lot  Fortunatly the collectors edition has given me both games and will be visiting those at some point in the future  Great writeup, thoroughly enjoyed the read.
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On July 28 2010 21:34 HopeNDespair wrote:Having come to Starcraft through the SC2 beta I have to admit I missed out on SC/Broodwar and reading this I can see that I missed a hell of a lot Fortunatly the collectors edition has given me both games and will be visiting those at some point in the future Great writeup, thoroughly enjoyed the read.
I was in the same situation when I came here back in April, but I found Liquipedia to be a great way to catch up on BW history, and I feel satisfied that I've caught up with the legacy at this point.
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On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blindless SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Posts such as this asks some good questions about the future of the korean scene and the future of both games and some other good points but like countless before it, it only shines light on the positive conclusions such as having Starcraft 2 pro-scenes in Europe and North America to the likes of the Korean Starcraft: Broodwar scene. You must look at both sides of the spectrum. For example: Starcraft 2 could kill the Starcraft: Broodwar scene in Korea and then fail miserably and leave us with nothing. Don't get me wrong. Starcraft 2 is a reality and I hope it enjoys equal or better longevity and success as Broodwar but mindlessly hyping it is not the way to achieve this. We must...
Question Everything.
Oh G5, you are such a smooth talker. I do agree with you though. Less hype on SC2 and more testing would have been better. They set the standard so high and hyped the game so much that every little fault will be blown out of proportion.
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I see a lot of people getting mad at the article for saying that BW is a stagnant or boring game or whatever. But that's not what it says at all; it says only that the BW competitive scene has become rather stagnant. And this is simply true, whether you're a BW guy or not.
The competitive BW scene outside of Korea has become stagnant, and dwindled down very far from its heyday; that's not to say it isn't there, or that it couldn't still go on for years and years. But this is simply a fact. And it's not "Anti-BW propaganda" (really?).
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Decent writeup but falls into many of the common pitfalls we see in all these such articles/threads. Some BW people have already elaborated their issues with the comparison, and I just still don't agree with the BNet blathering. Honestly, at this point, the only thing worth protesting anymore is LAN. That's the one issue that Blizzard hasn't budged on. It's major, but it's not end-of-the-world material. Everything else is getting addressed. We'll never know why BNet 2.0 caused so many delays for SC2 and yet still came out without so many essential features. That's an issue of schedule overrun that only Blizzard can address. We'd only hope that it involved a SC1-style complete revamp late in the game, otherwise I truly can't understand it.
Chat channels? Coming. Simple automated tournament support? Coming soon. Cross-region? Coming. Viewing replays online? Coming. Major upgrades/improvements to custom games? Coming.
Yeah, it's not here now. Let's be angry. But it's coming, so let's not pretend it's not. Let's also not drag out tired and obnoxious "rock comparisons." SC2 has amazing upgrades in terms of it's spectating and replay viewing. It's just an amazing game for viewers. They are so much more informed just by watching the screen displays than they are with BW. That doesn't make BW bad or talk about the quality and dynamic of the play onscreen, but it just is something that SC2 does really well. Likewise, the partition of players easily into competition that is at their level with super-quick matchmaking is amazing. The level of balance is great already and getting better. We've now seen pros dip meaningfully into Tier 3 units, and even seen more Archons of all units. After 2 expansions, and a number of new units, we'll see an even more robust set of strategies and compositions.
As much as BW people hate the "let's move on from the old game to the new", I hate the qualified and timid approval of SC2. As someone has already eloquently put it, SC2 is not SC1 and should not be viewed as the replacement. It exists off to the side a bit. Informed by the original but not the original. Korea and the proleagues should not shut things down for BW this year. Let SC2 grow. It WILL get there. It WILL get there faster than BW got there, but it won't come for free. SC2 is great. It's amazing, even. In a world without BW's shadow it would already be nearly universally liked.
Don't fear it's development. Sure they should be farther along after 7 years, but oh well. Stop trying to hindsight game-develop. It's easy to say after the release that they could've done things better. No kidding, they'd tell you the same thing. The fact of the matter is that the particular set of circumstances, choices, and time led them to this point and that point is pretty damn good. In 2-3 years time, they'll be in an amazing place.
2-3 years time puts SC1 at 2000-01. Before it's absolute glory years. We've waited forever for this game, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater simply due to our impatience.
SC2 is great. SC2 is getting better. SC2 will succeed.
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that funny read the forum 2-3 months back and now .
im still missing the chat channel , no lan , cross realm play .
( if you stop complaint about all these missing features they will never add them btw )
im fealing the ladder system suck , the whole rank system pointless and the division ... just lol ?!
the single player realy great and fun , also the multiplayer realy fun to play 2-3 game each day .
the game just out for a few day and you talk about passing the torch ?
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On July 28 2010 22:17 Oddysay wrote:
that funny read the forum 2-3 months back and now .
im still missing the chat channel , no lan , cross realm play .
im fealing the ladder system suck , the whole rank system pointless and the division ... just lol ?!
the single player realy great and fun , also the multiplayer realy fun to play 2-3 game each day .
the game just out for a few day and you talk about passing the torch ?
This man beat me to it. I fully agree with this and was surprised it didn't come up sooner.
Other than that I respect and at least partially agree with what everyone except for G5 has said(Blizzard didn't force ESPORTS for SC2 how exactly?)
I'm afraid of what may happen to Brood War because I have kept certain information locked in my head for years now. Blizzard has said that Battle.net 2.0 will be added to all the other blizzard games. This means that anything that is taken away when they move it to the other games is probably staying taken away. This has had me in deep fear for what may happen for the years that I've stored this info in my head. Blizzard hyped us up just to conceal the bad things about the game hidden in their hype. Years later we have found the bad parts of the hype. Hopefully its not too late...+ Show Spoiler +kept is a word?!? I thought I made it up lol.
edit2: also. I've read a review on amazon.com and apperantly there is no spawn! You can't use one disk to put the game on a bunch of different computers and then play with all your friends at the same time after using only 1 disk. I'm very disappointed in blizzard. However, have you guys seen the case Starcraft:BW and Starcraft are in for the CE? It is wicked awesome looking!
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On July 28 2010 22:06 Takkara wrote:
Cross-region? Coming..
Why do you think this is coming when its a clear decision to deliberately not include it? Its easy to just say 'Blizzard will fix everything' but they are pretty infamous for actually ignoring common issues in their other games where the joke 'working as intended' came from. Chat channels was another deliberate decision to not include and they only vaguely said there was a replacement for them. I wouldn't be surprised if Bnet stays pretty much how it is now for a long time.
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To the OP, I despise this. You've essentially wrote a huge wall of verbose text to say one thing you could have said in a sentence: "I want BW to die and SC2 to succeed".
Tell me, OP, did Blizzard ask you to write this? It seems to me it's just propaganda hype for SC2 to say BW HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG, KILL IT.
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United States889 Posts
On July 28 2010 22:17 Oddysay wrote:
that funny read the forum 2-3 months back and now .
im still missing the chat channel , no lan , cross realm play .
( if you stop complaint about all these missing features they will never add them btw )
im fealing the ladder system suck , the whole rank system pointless and the division ... just lol ?!
the single player realy great and fun , also the multiplayer realy fun to play 2-3 game each day .
the game just out for a few day and you talk about passing the torch ?
From the OP:
And so, Blizzard has passed the torch, and we hold it now, burning white hot in these hours before a new dawn. Ooh, aah, and when you're done, pass it on, I say. Pass it on, because we're ready. Ready for a new world.
Thanks for showing you didn't read the article.
On July 28 2010 22:43 Garrl wrote:
To the OP, I despise this. You've essentially wrote a huge wall of verbose text to say one thing you could have said in a sentence: "I want BW to die and SC2 to succeed".
Tell me, OP, did Blizzard ask you to write this? It seems to me it's just propaganda hype for SC2 to say BW HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG, KILL IT.
Yes. I was paid $15.42 by Rob Pardo to promote SC2 on TL.net. And what a sweet $15.42 it was.
I spent it on booze and loose women.
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EPT
