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People who believe SC2 will succeed as a spectator sport because either:
1) it's the best modern multiplayer RTS out there now
or
2) it's the successor to a somewhat successful spectator sport, Brood War
or some other shallow factors, are assuming that something will succeed because of a superficial view of the factors that made Brood War successful, and are ignoring that perhaps almost every other game has failed to become a successful spectator sport on the scale of Brood War. By looking at the masses of games that have failed to become a successful spectator sport, it should become clear that it's not a given that SC2 will succeed, in fact it should be assumed SC2 will be a failure unless it has exceptional qualities that other games do not display, as something that is interesting to watch, not only play.
Even Brood War was not able to become a successful spectator sport in the west. It's true there are quite a few sponsors now throwing (small amounts of) money at SC2 tournaments and teams, and quite a few tournaments are being hosted and streamed online, but that's a very long distance away from become a successfully televised esport, and this result is not something I would assume is a guaranteed outcome.
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On July 28 2010 22:41 infinity2k9 wrote:Why do you think this is coming when its a clear decision to deliberately not include it? Its easy to just say 'Blizzard will fix everything' but they are pretty infamous for actually ignoring common issues in their other games where the joke 'working as intended' came from. Chat channels was another deliberate decision to not include and they only vaguely said there was a replacement for them. I wouldn't be surprised if Bnet stays pretty much how it is now for a long time.
I say this, because it's true and announced.
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25399622869&sid=3000&pageNo=3#43
When? Can't say. The limiting factor isn't Blizzard's desire, it's their schedule. Honestly, anyone who has done anything schedule-based for work, ESPECIALLY computer programming, knows that you never run out of things you want to do and more often than not features don't get delivered because you're already running late with the features that MUST be in for the release to be functional.
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Well written, that is indeed my favorite joke at SC2's expense as well.
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In fact, the unique combination of conditions under which Brood War became popular in South Korea might not ever be replicated. It's probably true that interest in Brood War has plateaued already, or at least does not have much more room to grow, so those who make their livings through "eSport" cannot rely on it forever, so I do expect OGN, MBC, and newcomers to try broadcasting SC2, like how they've tried for many other games besides BW. But I do think that at this point in time, the most likely outcome is one of the worse case scenarios. Brood War slowly dies out while SC2 doesn't catch on in the same way.
In my view it would be better to study the development and rise of skateboarding and other "extreme" sports, as well as poker, as spectator sports in the west to understand how interest in the activity as participants and as an audience was developed into televised events and such, rather than Brood War, which has not succeeded in the west, and succeeded in South Korea in a very unique set of circumstances.
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On July 28 2010 22:51 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:17 Oddysay wrote:
that funny read the forum 2-3 months back and now .
im still missing the chat channel , no lan , cross realm play .
( if you stop complaint about all these missing features they will never add them btw )
im fealing the ladder system suck , the whole rank system pointless and the division ... just lol ?!
the single player realy great and fun , also the multiplayer realy fun to play 2-3 game each day .
the game just out for a few day and you talk about passing the torch ? From the OP: Show nested quote +And so, Blizzard has passed the torch, and we hold it now, burning white hot in these hours before a new dawn. Ooh, aah, and when you're done, pass it on, I say. Pass it on, because we're ready. Ready for a new world. Thanks for showing you didn't read the article. Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:43 Garrl wrote:
To the OP, I despise this. You've essentially wrote a huge wall of verbose text to say one thing you could have said in a sentence: "I want BW to die and SC2 to succeed".
Tell me, OP, did Blizzard ask you to write this? It seems to me it's just propaganda hype for SC2 to say BW HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG, KILL IT. Yes. I was paid $15.42 by Rob Pardo to promote SC2 on TL.net. And what a sweet $15.42 it was. I spent it on booze and loose women.
im failing to see where that say anything about me not reading the op , i have read it .
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well done 
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Definitely SC2 cannot be seen as close to a replacement for SC1. Consider it a totally separate game, independent of SC1 in terms of gameplay. Only time will tell how far SC2 gets. (imo, i don't see it coming close to what how far SC1 got) Much disagreement with this article and imo its kind of insulting and ignorant.
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On July 28 2010 23:17 Oddysay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:51 Arrian wrote:On July 28 2010 22:17 Oddysay wrote:
that funny read the forum 2-3 months back and now .
im still missing the chat channel , no lan , cross realm play .
( if you stop complaint about all these missing features they will never add them btw )
im fealing the ladder system suck , the whole rank system pointless and the division ... just lol ?!
the single player realy great and fun , also the multiplayer realy fun to play 2-3 game each day .
the game just out for a few day and you talk about passing the torch ? Thanks for showing you didn't read the article. im failing to see where that say anything about me not reading the op , i have read it .
The point is that the passing of the torch was not meant to be from BW -> SC2 in terms of eSports, but from Blizz -> community in terms of making SC2 succeed.
From the OP:
And now we are at a critical point in the history of e-Sports. Starcraft 2 is a chance for the stagnant state of the Korean scene to revive and grow, and it is a chance for Europe and North America to bud and eventually grow similar scenes. But it all hinges on the development that begins the moment the game is released. The part of the development Blizzard is responsible for is over. They have done their jobs, and from the looks of it, it has every opportunity to become as successful or more successful than its predecessor.
The burden then is laid on us, the players. The majority of that responsibility is rested on active and vibrant communities like Team Liquid to share information, passion, and techniques so that the game may develop into what it can be. A few hours ago, Blizzard handed us a game, raw but full of promise, and it will be our responsibility to take it and make of it what we can.
And so, Blizzard has passed the torch, and we hold it now, burning white hot in these hours before a new dawn. Ooh, aah, and when you're done, pass it on, I say. Pass it on, because we're ready. Ready for a new world.
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Good read, I'm somewhat glad that SC2 is here and at the fact that the negativity has died down quite a bit ever since beta. Heres to a brighter future for SC2 and all that relates to it.
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On July 28 2010 23:16 Zona wrote:
In fact, the unique combination of conditions under which Brood War became popular in South Korea might not ever be replicated. It's probably true that interest in Brood War has plateaued already, or at least does not have much more room to grow, so those who make their livings through "eSport" cannot rely on it forever, so I do expect OGN, MBC, and newcomers to try broadcasting SC2, like how they've tried for many other games besides BW. But I do think that at this point in time, the most likely outcome is one of the worse case scenarios. Brood War slowly dies out while SC2 doesn't catch on in the same way.
In my view it would be better to study the development and rise of skateboarding and other "extreme" sports, as well as poker, as spectator sports in the west to understand how interest in the activity as participants and as an audience was developed into televised events and such, rather than Brood War, which has not succeeded in the west, and succeeded in South Korea in a very unique set of circumstances.
NASCAR also was a viral success in America in terms of sport-growth. But it too has seen plateaus and now retreat. I'd love to see an article of academic analysis about why poker really took off. I remember the year that it did. I don't remember why poker was so exciting back then, maybe it was the advent of the online poker sites. The World Series of Poker had been going on for forever, but then overnight it exploded.
Chris Moneymaker, online sites, big TV deal. Unique factors that led to success, but I think you can see some interesting parallels that might bode well in SC2's favor:
1) Accessibility.
Why did Poker take off so well? Because it suddenly was in the hands of everyone. Online sites made it easy to play poker with anyone. You could slip into a buy-in tournament after tucking the kids in at night, or play a few hands of limit while you watched TV. It suddenly became easy for people to play poker, learn about poker, and train about poker. This is the way SC2 is evolving. With an auto-matchmaker that keeps people playing only against people at their level, and makes joining games simple and painless SC2 is poised to move in this direction. Later with simple automated tournaments, people will be able to get the thrill of amateur competition without having to find specific sign-up threads. There can be just as many Bronze league tournies as Diamond.
2) Viewability
Another reason Poker went viral? The card cam! Suddenly, instead of being as in the dark as the players, they could have a leg up. They had god-like knowledge of the game state. This lead to tremendous amounts of drama. The viewers knew what was up and could watch their favorite or least favorite players walk right to the edge of certain elimination and then defy odds with a bluff or burn out. This seemingly small addition gave average viewers incredible knowledge and made the game infinitely more viewable. I'm not sure if SC2 has quite a trump car like the card cam, but the new viewing tools are so useful. The ability to quickly dart from player view to player view, the ability to see the resources, production, armies, and income give viewers a quick look at the state of the game without having to have it explained by the camera or caster. I think, as in poker, the new viewing tools in SC2 could be a major key to it's viewership success.
3) Visibility
Having poker on TV definitely helped it grow quickly. It spawned all types of knockoff poker shows on many different channels. This is something that SC2 can only dream of, but if it happens bodes well. Success begets success. When something grows in popularity it gains more access to media and then gets more popularity. Already we've seen the birth of Youtube channels with over 100,000 subscribers. Live events are getting 8-15k viewers sustained over the course of the entire broadcast (more if you look cumulatively). SC2 is wildly popular and getting more popular on the internet. It's only a matter of time before it gets additional media opportunities and that can lead to mainstream growth. Like poker, it just takes that one critical spark to really set fire to a community's growth.
4) Everymanability
Moneymaker. For Poker it was the fool's dream that any amateur could win the World Series of Poker over all the pros. In SC2 it may be the "#1 Diamond Leaguers". The guys who believe they can take on the world. They feel they have a shot in this tournament. They feel more apart of the scene and community because they think that "if I only spent a little more time at this I could be that good." It's surprising how much more involved people can be in something simply because they feel like they're able to do it. We've already seen a lot of people make names for themselves in the beta both in casting, streaming, and playing. People see that success and want to try for it themselves. This competition breed ingenuity and creativity, it also provides hype and advertising. It increases the reach of the community and draws a wide variety of people in.
This is far from an academic review, but your really good post just inspired me to think about it and this is what I came up with. I think SC2 could have a bright future, and you're right that we should really be looking to learn from other viral communities on what helped them.
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United States889 Posts
On July 28 2010 23:24 lisherwin wrote:
Definitely SC2 cannot be seen as close to a replacement for SC1. Consider it a totally separate game, independent of SC1 in terms of gameplay. Only time will tell how far SC2 gets. (imo, i don't see it coming close to what how far SC1 got) Much disagreement with this article and imo its kind of insulting and ignorant.
Where do I say it's going to be a replacement? I said:
we are bidding a fond farewell to Brood War, at least as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports
Obviously, what I was implying is not the BW will die (or as others have alleged that I want it to die...check how long I've been here guys...I came here for BW, have been playing it basically since release, and I love the game) but that SC2 will be a competitor.
It seems like people have gotten hung up on the wrong things in this article. I vastly underestimated the tension between the BW fans and SC2 fans. My goodness. The vitriol could probably power Manhattan island for 3 weeks.
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On July 28 2010 23:36 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 23:24 lisherwin wrote:
Definitely SC2 cannot be seen as close to a replacement for SC1. Consider it a totally separate game, independent of SC1 in terms of gameplay. Only time will tell how far SC2 gets. (imo, i don't see it coming close to what how far SC1 got) Much disagreement with this article and imo its kind of insulting and ignorant. Where do I say it's going to be a replacement? I said: Show nested quote +we are bidding a fond farewell to Brood War, at least as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports Obviously, what I was implying is not the BW will die (or as others have alleged that I want it to die...check how long I've been here guys...I came here for BW, have been playing it basically since release, and I love the game) but that SC2 will be a competitor. It seems like people have gotten hung up on the wrong things in this article. I vastly underestimated the tension between the BW fans and SC2 fans. My goodness. The vitriol could probably power Manhattan island for 3 weeks.
It's definitely palpable isn't it?
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On July 28 2010 22:57 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:41 infinity2k9 wrote:On July 28 2010 22:06 Takkara wrote:
Cross-region? Coming.. Why do you think this is coming when its a clear decision to deliberately not include it? Its easy to just say 'Blizzard will fix everything' but they are pretty infamous for actually ignoring common issues in their other games where the joke 'working as intended' came from. Chat channels was another deliberate decision to not include and they only vaguely said there was a replacement for them. I wouldn't be surprised if Bnet stays pretty much how it is now for a long time. I say this, because it's true and announced. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25399622869&sid=3000&pageNo=3#43When? Can't say. The limiting factor isn't Blizzard's desire, it's their schedule. Honestly, anyone who has done anything schedule-based for work, ESPECIALLY computer programming, knows that you never run out of things you want to do and more often than not features don't get delivered because you're already running late with the features that MUST be in for the release to be functional.
Their plan for cross region direct from them is an extra charge to play on a different region. And honestly don't give me this bullshit about schedule, it's not an excuse. Programming wise there is NOTHING stopping them allowing people to do this in the first place, and chat channels is about the easiest thing ever to implement they just chose NOT to. I don't think what someone from the 'community team' is much of a reliable source on anything the actual development team is doing anyway. They will always just give generic answers to everything... yes we are thinking about it, that will be in there at some point, etc.
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Great read! I wasn't much of a SC:BW player, although I did dabble in it. Looking at SC:BW's history, I do hope that SCII does become as much as a phenomenon as its predecessor, since I believe that the game has the potential to do that, and to help bring E-sports to North America. And its definitely in the hands of the players atm.
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we are bidding a fond farewell to Brood War, at least as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports
I guess I just don't see why we're necessarily bidding a good-bye to BW as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. SC2 has its merits, but I think we're far far from passing the throne to SC2 as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. It's a sensitive time for the SC1-SC2 divide we cannot say much about SC2 as a e-Sport game comparative to SC1 until we wait longer to see how the game progresses. I mean hell, its just been a day since SC2's release (after a volatile couple months of beta).
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On July 28 2010 23:40 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 22:57 Takkara wrote:On July 28 2010 22:41 infinity2k9 wrote:On July 28 2010 22:06 Takkara wrote:
Cross-region? Coming.. Why do you think this is coming when its a clear decision to deliberately not include it? Its easy to just say 'Blizzard will fix everything' but they are pretty infamous for actually ignoring common issues in their other games where the joke 'working as intended' came from. Chat channels was another deliberate decision to not include and they only vaguely said there was a replacement for them. I wouldn't be surprised if Bnet stays pretty much how it is now for a long time. I say this, because it's true and announced. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25399622869&sid=3000&pageNo=3#43When? Can't say. The limiting factor isn't Blizzard's desire, it's their schedule. Honestly, anyone who has done anything schedule-based for work, ESPECIALLY computer programming, knows that you never run out of things you want to do and more often than not features don't get delivered because you're already running late with the features that MUST be in for the release to be functional. Their plan for cross region direct from them is an extra charge to play on a different region. And honestly don't give me this bullshit about schedule, it's not an excuse. Programming wise there is NOTHING stopping them allowing people to do this in the first place, and chat channels is about the easiest thing ever to implement they just chose NOT to. I don't think what someone from the 'community team' is much of a reliable source on anything the actual development team is doing anyway. They will always just give generic answers to everything... yes we are thinking about it, that will be in there at some point, etc.
1) Chat is not hard for them to add, and yes they choose to not add it originally. Not in dispute. However, now that they want to add it, it needs to be scheduled. We don't know their schedule, but I can imagine it was and will continue to be a little full. They'll get to it, they just can't hack it into the client in a week or even a month.
2) No indication that cross-region will cost anything. That's just paranoia until they announce a fee. In fact, I believe they've said it'll be completely free, but I can't find the post right now.
3) The community team's job is to bring you the words of the development team. They meet with the development team and bring their words to the community. On issues of this much importance, the community team doesn't speak unless the development team/marketing gives them the thumbs up about precisely what they're saying. There's no difference between a community team member saying something and a developer saying it when it relates to something like this.
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"And so, Blizzard has passed the torch, and we hold it now, burning white hot in these hours before a new dawn. Ooh, aah, and when you're done, pass it on, I say. Pass it on, because we're ready. Ready for a new world."
And this is why TL is the premier site for the Starcraft community. Nowhere does Blizzard command TL to foster the development of e-sports, but TL takes that responsibility into its own hands and handles it with a level of professionalism that kindles nothing but respect.
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United States889 Posts
On July 28 2010 23:46 lisherwin wrote:Show nested quote +we are bidding a fond farewell to Brood War, at least as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports I guess I just don't see why we're necessarily bidding a good-bye to BW as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. SC2 has its merits, but I think we're far far from passing the throne to SC2 as the uncontested ruler of e-Sports. It's a sensitive time for the SC1-SC2 divide we cannot say much about SC2 as a e-Sport game comparative to SC1 until we wait longer to see how the game progresses. I mean hell, its just been a day since SC2's release (after a volatile couple months of beta).
Two big reasons: because it's new, and because it's popular.
Even if the essence of the game isn't as good as BW's, the game has more popularity around the world right now than BW does, and that means that money and sponsorships will follow. Advertisers and sponsors don't care about how good a game is, they just care if it brings eyeballs. And SC2 will certainly bring eyeballs.
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On July 28 2010 15:47 G5 wrote:
I think we need to look at the game critically in order to truly understand it. We do not need more mindless SC2 hype which has been oozing from every corner of tl.net. We need more people critically questioning and testing possible faults and successes of the game in order to draw accurate conclusions about this game. I don't think enough of it was done in the beta. Especially by forces in the community such as top tier players who only looked at the game as a way of future financial benefit and fame. So much blindless SC2 hype came from these sad desperate souls. I won't name names but you know who you are.
Posts such as this asks some good questions about the future of the korean scene and the future of both games and some other good points but like countless before it, it only shines light on the positive conclusions such as having Starcraft 2 pro-scenes in Europe and North America to the likes of the Korean Starcraft: Broodwar scene. You must look at both sides of the spectrum. For example: Starcraft 2 could kill the Starcraft: Broodwar scene in Korea and then fail miserably and leave us with nothing. Don't get me wrong. Starcraft 2 is a reality and I hope it enjoys equal or better longevity and success as Broodwar but mindlessly hyping it is not the way to achieve this. We must...
Question Everything.
There have been countless people who tell us the exact opposite (that our SC2 coverage is too critical). Do you realize how much of a shitstorm we'd stir up if we made a "SC2: The Possible Death of BW?" newspost? We're trying to find a happy medium, but in general it's better to criticize things into a positive light (and even then, so many people get stuck with the criticism and flame you for being nostalgic about BW).
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United States889 Posts
On July 29 2010 00:06 Saracen wrote: Do you realize how much of a shitstorm we'd stir up if we made a "SC2: The Possible Death of BW?" newspost?
oh god. we'd have to go into witness protection
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EPT
