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On May 31 2010 19:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote:
I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play. Kespa didn't sell the rights to broadcast starcraft in korea, kespa sold the right to use their players (the ones they officially represent and the ones they pay the salary for) in a tournament. And apparantly 100% of that money is invested back into the players and teams, I fail to see how this is a bad deal, I also fail to see how blizzard is getting shafted by it.
From the Q:A
Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights?
- KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporations so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches.
Their answer implies they DID sell the rights to broadcast despite reinvesting the money (which is silly because its the same as making money for the big corporations, because every cent kespa makes and "reinvests" is another cent the corporations that make up kespa save. In that sense it is profit and still get the PR rep of saying non-profit)
I also fail to see why blizzard would be made at kespa for charging use of players it makes no sense for blizzard to be upset for gom being willing to pay for access to good players.
But the response and the fact that blizzard did have a big problem implies to me at least, that kespa tried to sell the broadcasting rights to a game they don't own and blizzard did not like it.
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Poetic justice imo for KeSPA shutting down the GOM leagues by making their teams refuse to play, if it wasnt for that I'd side with KeSPA but I just cannot forgive that.
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On May 31 2010 12:47 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. It's too late. What is there to negotiate about? Blizzard already gave the broadcasting rights to GOM.
Indeed, looks like theres nothing left on the table, its too late for Kespa already.
Its either, Kespa blew it or Blizzard is being unreasonable.
The current state of the Beta, plus all those crappy things we already know will be there after game gets released...well do the math^^
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On May 31 2010 20:07 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote:
I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play. Kespa didn't sell the rights to broadcast starcraft in korea, kespa sold the right to use their players (the ones they officially represent and the ones they pay the salary for) in a tournament. And apparantly 100% of that money is invested back into the players and teams, I fail to see how this is a bad deal, I also fail to see how blizzard is getting shafted by it. From the Q:A Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights? - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporations so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches. Their answer implies they DID sell the rights to broadcast despite reinvesting the money (which is silly because its the same as making money for the big corporations, because every cent kespa makes and "reinvests" is another cent the corporations that make up kespa save. In that sense it is profit and still get the PR rep of saying non-profit) I also fail to see why blizzard would be made at kespa for charging use of players it makes no sense for blizzard to be upset for gom being willing to pay for access to good players. But the response and the fact that blizzard did have a big problem implies to me at least, that kespa tried to sell the broadcasting rights to a game they don't own and blizzard did not like it.
When kespa "shut down gom" they didn't really shut them down did they? They simply denied gom access to kespa licsenced players which of course lead to gom shutting down by themselves since noone would watch starcraft that's not featuring those players.
Wording it as broadcasting rights was an extremly bad descion on their part but it seems quite clear that's not what it effectively is.
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I don't think Kespa the organization had anything to denying players to the GomTV tournament.
But I think the teams didn't see how a third individual league would be a good use of their player's practice time (from the TEAM'S point of view, to promote the team brand) since the GomTV tournament was NOT ON TELEVISION! pro-BW exists simply to provide a medium to air ads for the sponsors' products! since GomTV's reach sucked (from a Korean company's point of view to reach a Korean audience) it wasn't worth diverting resources/player attention
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Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
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On May 31 2010 20:08 Kuja900 wrote:
Poetic justice imo for KeSPA shutting down the GOM leagues by making their teams refuse to play, if it wasnt for that I'd side with KeSPA but I just cannot forgive that.
You know, not all teams rejected gomtv. About 5 or 6 teams still wanted to play, but GomTV themselves shut the league down because they said it wasn't enough. (GomTV never run with all the teams, to start with)
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Kespa fighting!
If you guys can beat Flash in MSL, you can beat Blizzard and GOM tag team in Korea. After all the SC2 LAN/chat room BS I have no faith in Blizzard. GTFO of my SCBW. Do whatever you want with SC2.
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On May 31 2010 20:00 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote:
Kespa is a non-profit organization.
Blizz is a money-monger.
That's enough for me, Kespa will win. Erm, no.  Well according to OP they are prepared to let independent auditers (or whatever the word is in english) verify just that.
Verify that Kespa is non-profit??? I can assure you, Kespa is very much concerned about making a profit...
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No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on.
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I'll give KeSPA one thing: When you see footage of their games, how the fans are carrying merchandising of one or another team and sometimes of a specific player, you know it's not just Starcraft that's popular- the progamers and their teams are also a source of passion for the fans, and the teams are all with KeSPA (not sure about the players).
With SC2, however, KeSPA won't get the opportunity to garner fan loyalty to themselves, because they put themselves in a situation where they bit the hand that fed them (basically denied Blizzard any recognition or revenues or ANYTHING for using their game Starcraft for all sorts of commercial purposes), and now they're surprised that the same hand is asking for guarantees before feeding them again, but they want another free meal.
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To question some statements tht I saw during readings of replies. Blizzard is not the biggest gaming company by far. If anyone knows anything about the corporate world companies like blizzard make small profits compared to other companies. Reading all of this makes me wonder if vivendi will step into the situation. Also the thing about the kespa responses is that they seem much more humbled and pleasant than blizzard. While we can rag on their past decisions, their actions of late are something to look well at. They at LEAST put the appearance of having esports grow, andnot have the work of eleven years be rewriten. Also if blizzard actually had major problems with kespa why hasn't this issueEVER been addressed prior to the launch of sc2?
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On May 31 2010 20:42 Zona wrote:
No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on.
Sure... but Kespa is literally made-up of and run by the people that DO profit from all of this (seriously, look who serves on their board of directors). They made an organization to help... themselves. Sure, by definition maybe Kespa isn't churning a profit, but you've got to be kidding me if you think they're not indirectly concerned with anything other than self-preservation and self-interest; which is, of course, making a profit.
Not that there is anything wrong with that btw - Companies are supposed to make money or they die. Just don't try to sugarcoat it to be anything other than what it is based on 'structure' and semantics.
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GOM Starleauge was crappy, because it had no reputation at all. At the beginning it started with pro players, but they didn't really care in my opinion. Starleauge, MSL, Proleauge were enough in the busy schedule.
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Can somebody explain to me why we should trust KeSPA? To me, it seems like KeSPA and perhaps Blizzard have it out for eachother. KeSPA made the first strike by breaking the NDA and is continuing its attacks by forcing its teams to rally together against Blizzard, meanwhile Blizzard continues to remain silent simply saying that they already made the deal with GomTV (and maintaining its NDA agreements).
Maybe Blizzard should consult with GomTV and KeSPA to see if they can call off the NDA to clear everything up?
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If this goes to court in skorea, im pretty sure kespa is going to get up on top. So it feels like Blizzard is just trying to use scare tactics while kespa is completely ignoring blizzards demands and just talks about how it would hurt e-sport.
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On May 31 2010 20:24 ReneFlores wrote:
Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
There is one big problem with your argument, Kespa is a Korean company operating under Korean law, which means they have a pretty damned good chance of winning any case brough to court. They might be on shakier grounds with SC2 but I'm about 90% sure they would win a case in Korea. (And 100% sure they would lose in the states, but thats not where it would happen)
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Look, Kespa is basically the organization of pro-team sponsors.
But are the sponsors profiting from supporting e-sports at all? They invest hundreds of thousands per year, but that money doesn't return to them directly. There is no ticket sale, there is no significant sale of e-sport related merchandise. They profit from the image and advertising that help them to sell non-esport related products.
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On May 31 2010 20:56 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:24 ReneFlores wrote:
Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
There is one big problem with your argument, Kespa is a Korean company operating under Korean law, which means they have a pretty damned good chance of winning any case brough to court. They might be on shakier grounds with SC2 but I'm about 90% sure they would win a case in Korea. (And 100% sure they would lose in the states, but thats not where it would happen)
Im sorry bro, the Berne Convention on copyright laws says otherwise. This world is ruled by money and power, not nationality. Regardless of where this is taken to court, a judge has to follow the law, and most laws are made to protect big companys. This is the same reason why patents are shuch a big deal, this is pretty much the same, KESPA just cant use Blizzard games to make profit without their permission, it cant happen.
The argument they made about adidas is completly retarded, Adidas didnt invent soccer, if they did however, belive me, they wouldnt allow other companys to get a piece of the cake.
Kespa's best hope right now is to forget about Starcraft, and just aim to get other games popular, its their own fault for putting all their eggs on one basket.
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I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play.
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EPT
