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5003 Posts
This is the latest development in a series of exchanges between Blizzard and KeSPA + Show Spoiler [Timeline] +
Updates
KeSPA Press Conference Q&A Regarding Negotiations and Sincerity of Negotiations
Q: Blizzard's Mike Morhaime, in his last letter, said that KeSPA has violated Blizzard's intellectual property rights by selling broadcasting rights without consulting Blizzard, and that they have attempted to converse with KeSPA and claimed that KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzard's intellectual property rights and negotiate only half hartedly. What is KeSPA's stance on this issue? - KeSPA, as the instrument representing Korean eSports, has tried its best to create a contract that fosters the growth of eSports. - Since Blizzard asked for negotiations in 2007, Blizzard has only conducted 3~4 basic meetings and was not very enthusiastic about the negotiations. On June 7th 2009, with Starcraft 2 coming out soon, Blizzard and KeSPA delved into negotiations fully. However, the release date was pushed back, and the negotiations quickly became very vague, and soon after on April of this year, Blizzard announced that they would no longer be negotiating with KeSPA. - Although Blizzard came and shook the eSports market by brandishing "intellectual property rights", we question if Blizzard even wanted to have sincere negotiations regarding these rights.
Q: There are a few fans who believe that KeSPA did not try very hard negotiating and thought of the issue too simply. - We regret at the misunderstanding, as KeSPA has put in significant amounts of effort into negotiations. We furthermore regret that we did not enthusiastically try and connect with the fans. - We will humbly accept all criticisms of KeSPA, and will apply any good suggestions into our organization and have it reflected in ourp olicies. We will also be more enthusiastic about connecting with the fans about KeSPA's actions so we can be an organization that works for the fans. - I hope that the fans will look at the situation warmly, and hope that a contract that will satisfy players, tems, and the fans will be constructed.
Regarding Intellectual Property Rights
Q: Blizzard claims that the usage of games in leagues is not a communal right but within the realm of intellectual property. What do you think about this? - While the game is owned by the company, the game is not eSports. eSports only has game as the subject matter, smf it does not evolve around just the players but as a spectator sport, a culture that needs many workers's effort and skills. Starcraft was already recognized in China as an official sport, and last year in the Asians games it was recognized as an official event, and so it is something that is evolving as a sport globally - Sports is not just for/owned by the "Manias" (T/N: Fans really involved in it. Think "Otaku") or special organizations. It has a communal property where normal spectators can watch and be involved in. - If eSports is not a communal property and belongs to an international company called Blizzard, then the entire eSports industry in Korea and the existence of KeSPA becomes fundamentally wrong from the beginning. All recognition and gains as a culture and sponsorship from Airforce and such disappears. - Sports need to guarantee Public Viewing, and so it has a communal property. eSports cannot just be approached simply through Blizzard's promotion logic. - There are many examples such as the CGS event that shows that no matter how much you invest, if it's done for personal gain then you cannot succeed
%%CGS Event: Refers to Championship Gaming Series created by Direct TV where they hired many players , but upon discovering that it was not profitable, dropped support and many players were left unpaid.
Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests. - Without considering IP rights, Blizzard has been one of the greatest benefactors from growth of Korean eSports. Through Korean eSports, Starcraft 1 sales went up considerably and the product life cycle lengthened, and Blizzard gained many other many benefits. The game leagues operated by KeSPA uses official products. - Even with all this, KeSPA has announced from the early days of negotiations that we wish to recognize the rights of Blizzard due to Starcraft and has made it clear that they would pay a modest game usage fee to Blizzard.
Q: To KeSPA, where are the boundaries of IP rights? - IP rights are there as the basic rights of Game Creation companies. - But Blizzard demands that organizations get permission for contract time needed for a safe operation of eSports, Sponsor and Marketing plans, Broadcasting plans, and royalties from broadcasting and sponsorships which is beyond game usage fees, and sub license fees. - KeSPA believes that this is an unjust interference with operations, and also an unbeneficial negotiation setting as this goes beyond the scope of IP rights, and can see it as a poisonous article that shrinks the investment by corporations. - While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights? - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporation so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches. - Every year KeSPA submits accounting reports to board of directors, and can make public any accounts regarding complete reinvestment of broadcasting fees. - Fundamentally there needs to be a little bit of industrialization so that the players can show good matches, by solving their needs similarly to that of a profession. - The 12 gaming teams invested a lot of money every year, and KeSPA puts effort into reinvests every cent made by broadcasting fees to create new broadcasts and game organizations. - Events like the world cup and Olympics and other big sports events are impossible without efforts like these.
Relationship with GomTV Q: Blizzard has currently given all rights within Korea to Gretech, and Gretech has shown interest in creating a sublicensing contract with KeSPA. Is KeSPA interested in negotiating with GomTV? - The first thing to settle is to have a proper relationship with Blizzard. The important problem is to establish an important rule through negotiations with KeSPA, who represents the 12 teams, and Blizzard that transcends monetary issues and affects the development direction of Korean eSports. - Once this condition is met, then we are willing to discuss with not just Gretech but any other company for the development of Korean eSPorts
Q: KeSPA is known to be in a rather awkward relationship with Gretech due to the "GomTV Classic" event. If negotations happen, then what can KeSPA offer, and what does KeSPA seek to gain? - When there was discussion regarding broadcasting rights in the past, there was a lot of argument with the broadcasting stations, but now we have a good partnership. - We can work together with Gretech anytime for the development of Korean eSports - But as we said before, a proper relationship with Blizzard takes priority.
Operations of Starleagues and Responses
Q: Starcraft 2 is set to be released on the end of July. Are there plans to continue to operate a Starcraft 1 league? What are the plans for Starcraft 2? - Starcraft 2 is a game that has not been released yet so it is a bit too early to talk about it. In the end it will depend on what the fans choose. KeSPA and the progame teams will choose in the direction of the fans.
Q: If Blizzard continues to ignore KeSPA, how will you deal with this? - KeSPA and the gaming teams wishes for a logical and sensical resolution with Blizzard as a given - KeSPA and the gaming teams are continually thinking about what is the best decision for the development of Korean eSports, and to create this environment, we will seek the opinions of fans, the players, the government, and gaming companies, and will decide on a series of actions based on this.
Q: If Blizzard requests negotiations, will you immediately accept? - As said before many times, KeSPA is always ready to converse with Blizzard - As a given KeSPA and the 12 gaming teams does not wish to ostracize Blizzard. We hope that Blizzard enthusiastically join the development of Korean eSports as an important game company. However, we will partner in a logical, sensical form that allows contribution to growth of Korean eSports, rather than just show extreme avarice.
Role of KeSPA in the growth of eSports
Q: eSports grew completely around Starcraft 1. Wasn't there a lack of effort regarding developing other eSports games? - The fan's choice and love is very important for the discovery and growth of eSports events - While KeSPA has attempted many times to promote various events, but there weren't any cases where it grew as a title event through the love of the fans - KeSPA will continue to try for diversification of gaming events.
Q: What does KeSPA think of the criticism that KeSPA only concentrated on proleagues and did not work on developing the amateur scene? - It has only been a few years since Korean eSports has finally looked like a sport. - KeSPA has visions and plans regarding Amateur contests and as a school sport, but nothing can happen all at once. - It takes a little bit more time for eSports to have a foundation where Pros and Amateurs can develop at the same rate.
Source: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107304&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd=
Gretech: "Let's quickly set up the tables for negotiations"
Gretech revealed their position that they wished to negotiate as soon as possible. Bae In Shik, representative of Gretech, said that "While there was no mentions of negotiating with Gretech, we will interpret the press conference as a wish to negotiate related information", and added that "We wish to negotiate as soon as possible"
He then emphasized that "We want to serve our fans "legal" eSports content that will no longer be played by Intellectual property rights.". He then added that "While we gave a grace period to August for Proleagues, but we know that the individual leagues will be beginning soon. Whether it be KeSPA or the two broadcasting stations, they wish to quickly set up a place for negotiations and quickly service content to the fans"
Source: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107300&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd=
Blizzard Responds to the 3 Questions
Blizzard, regarding the questions asked by KeSPA and the progame teams, said that "we have nothing to say", and added that "We have made our stance clear on the 27th when we announced our contract with Gretech regarding events implied in the press conference."
Source: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107299&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd=
Blizzard Responds to the Non-Disclosure Agreement
While KeSPA has claimed that a NDA agreement does not exist, arguing that "KeSPA has never agreed to a NDA with Blizzard, and only kept the contents silent due to respect", and added "Blizzard criticizes KeSPA for breaking the NDA, but if there was an NDA, please reveal it to the public".
Upon investigation, it was confirmed that KeSPA and Blizzard did sign a NDA agreement, signed by the previous Chairman of KeSPA. It is the situation where Blizzard owns the actual NDA document."
A Blizzard Korea official stated that "We have NDA agreements even when we have press conferences. It makes no sense that we didn't have an NDA on such an important negotiation. We have NDA documents signed by the previous KeSPA chairman "
Source: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=404547&category=102
KeSPA held a press conference on May 31st to address the developing situation.
In response to Blizzard and their dealings with GOM TV, KeSPA asked 3 specific questions.
1) Even though we, the twelve progame teams, have stated that we would pay royalties for the use of the games to respect Blizzard as the original creator, Blizzard continues to claim that their intellectual property rights are not being respected. We want to know if Blizzard believes that their rights would only be respected only if the following conditions are met - Ownership of everything authored by the players, progame teams, and the broadcast stations - Royalties regarding game use combined with a portion of profits from all tournaments and broadcasts and a royalty for sublicensing - To check and decide on everything regarding things created by broadcasts, sponsorships, and all other marketing activities and the right to audit If not, we want a clear statement regarding Blizzard's position on the matter. Furthermore, we believe that this is just a ploy to increase Blizzard's profits, therefore we wish to know how this relates to advancing eSports in Korea.
2) In 1998 when Starcraft was released, Hanbitsoft, the company that had the rights to publish the game in Korea, was the first chairman of KeSPA and registered and approvedStarcraft as an official game (T/N: Category for eSports). Even back then the concept of eSports was still very vague, and thus Hanbitsoft, who held publishing rights in Korea, recommending and approving of the game supports the case that KeSPA did not illegally use Starcraft 1. In addition, Blizzard was aware of that these contests were being held and even supported it, only to find themselves years later claiming that Korea has illegally used Starcraft 1 and that their intellectual property rights were being violated. We wonder if this violating of intellectual property rights have hurt Blizzard in sales, and we want to know why Blizzard did not mention Intellectual property rights up to 2006 even though they were aware of such events.
3) Han Jung Won, Blizzard Korea's representative announced during this press conference that Blizzard would negotiate with KeSPA but not the Executive Office of KeSPA, does that mean Blizzard will only negotiate with specific progame teams and broadcasting stations? Is there evidence for why Blizzard does not trust KeSPA and the progaming teams discussing together in negotiations? We want to know when KeSPA and Progaming team representatives both come to the negotiation tables together, if Blizzard would agree for negotiations.
Original: + Show Spoiler +1. 우리 12개 게임단이 원저작자에 대한 존중으로 이미 게임사용료를 지불하겠다는 입장을 밝혔음에도 불구하고 블리자드 측에서는 지속적으로 지적재산권을 인정받지 못했다고 주장하고 있다. 블리자드에서는 ▲ 선수와 게임단, 방송사가 만들어내는 2차 저작물 소유권 ▲ 게임사용에 대한 로열티와 함께 대회 및 방송을 통한 모든 수입의 배분 등 서브 라이선스에 대한 로열티 ▲ 방송제작물과 스폰서 유치 등 모든 마케팅 활동에 대한 사전 검열과 회계장부 검사에 대한 권리 등 모든 요구사항이 다 수용되어야만 지적재산권이 인정받았다고 생각하는지, 원저작자의 지적재산권 범위에 대한 입장을 밝혀라. 또한, 이러한 태도가 블리자드의 과도한 이윤 추구이지 한국 e스포츠 발전과 무슨 관계가 있는지 밝혀달라.
2. 1998년 스타크래프트가 출시되었을 시 국내 판권을 가지고 있었던 유통사인 한빛소프트는 e스포츠협회의 초대 회장사로서 스타크래프트를 공인종목으로 등록, 승인한바 있다. 이 당시만 해도 e스포츠라는 개념이 정착되지 않았으므로 국내 판권을 가지고 있었던 한빛소프트의 대회 개최 추진과 승인, 정식 발매된 패키지의 사용은 협회가 스타크래프트1을 무단 사용하지 않았음을 뒷받침한다. 게다가 블리자드에서도 이러한 대회의 개최에 대해 인지하고 있었고 심지어 장려하기까지 하였는데, 뒤늦게 스타크래프트1에 대해 한국이 무단 사용함으로써 그들이 지적재산권이 침해되었다고 주장하고 있다. 과연, 지적재산권 침해로 블리자드가 매출 등에서 손해를 본 바가 있는지, 그리고 지난 2006년까지는 모든 스타크래프트 대회를 인지하고 있었음에도 불구하고 지적재산권에 대해 묵인한 까닭은 무엇인지 밝혀달라.
3. 블리자드 코리아의 한정원 대표는 기자회견 시, 한국e스포츠협회와는 협상할 것이나 협회 사무국과 협상하지 않겠다고 밝혔는데, 이는 방송사나 개별 게임단과만 협상할 여지가 있다는 의미인가? 협회와 12개 게임단이 지속적으로 협상 과정 전반에 대해 논의하고 공유하며 협상에 임하는 것을 신뢰하지 못하는 근거가 있는 지, 만약 협회와 게임단 대표가 공동으로 협상에 임할 시에는 응할 의향이 있는지 밝혀달라.
Source: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107294&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd=
Rough summary of other events going on.
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
(Rough summary of a few things I read. Most articles seem to have pieces of what they have said and I guess we should expect a complete statement to come up soon)
Sources:
http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107290&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= http://spn.edaily.co.kr/plus/life/NewsRead.asp?sub_cd=DH33&dirCode=0030305&newsid=01928646592974496 http://www.asiae.co.kr/news/view.htm?sec=it2&idxno=2010053110454346924
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Interesting... I wonder if this will change anything? Heh...
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:-| I dunno who to really believe. As long as the show goes on.
It looks like KESPA got dragged back to the negotiating table by the balls.
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Blizzard should say "talk to GOM kthx"
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Both sides seem to have a good argument but every time Kespa responds I tend to agree with them completely.
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The way Activision approaches any sort of business partnership is bound to screw over anyone that isn't Activision...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports.
It's too late. What is there to negotiate about? Blizzard already gave the broadcasting rights to GOM.
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It seems that Blizzard is just being a bit unreasonable. If KESPA is willing to pay royalties, I really don't see the problem, unless Blizzard is out for the control.
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it's true that Blizzard is the greatest beneficiary from e-sport. Without e-sport I wouldn't waste my money buying a starcraft battle chest 4 months ago, which is like 10+ years after it's released.
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I think both sides are completely full of shit. Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. KeSPA is used to having complete and utter control of the Starcraft scene, and there is no way they are going to give that up without a fight. The only problem is that they are trying to bluff their way to victory against an opponent who has every single card.
gg KeSPA, either figure out a way to keep Blizz happy enough that they let you continue to do what you do with minimal interruption (Translation: pay a shit ton), or wait and hope that blizz sponsored esports fails so you can step back in on the cheap.
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16926 Posts
Will this reach the Korean courts?
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 31 2010 12:48 CCGaunt wrote: It seems that Blizzard is just being a bit unreasonable. If KESPA is willing to pay royalties, I really don't see the problem, unless Blizzard is out for the control. And everything we've seen so far indicates that is exactly what Blizzard IS after. Which is disappointing, and I really hope that they don't have a valid legal claim to it.
It makes sense to me that Blizzard should receive compensation for the use of their game. I don't think Blizzard necessarily has a right to control over the scene, however.
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KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Am i the only one that finds this really ironic?
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Kespa seems to be making a very generous offer to Blizzard. Blizzard listen to Kespa: Do it for the fans.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote: Will this reach the Korean courts? What is there to take to court? Blizz has all of the property rights. One of the derivatives of said property rights is the right to distribute.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 12:53 Ftrunkz wrote:Am i the only one that finds this really ironic?
It's the only reason I included it!
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LOL
Kespa hiding behind "the fans".
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God I really don't know which one I dislike more these days... Blizzard for being ridiculously greedy (see the activision blizzard article), or Kespa for their long record of dumb rulings "the pp/ppp and "a" incedences) Does anyone feel at a loss about who to support?
I guess id go with Kespa as they kinda keep ESports alive...
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On May 31 2010 12:57 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:53 Ftrunkz wrote:KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans Am i the only one that finds this really ironic? It's the only reason I included it!
lol. Whatever, KeSPA needs to get with the times. Gom's gonna really help push SC2 into the NA and EU conscience, which is good. KeSPA most likely would do nothing to make the game more accessible outside Korea. I support Blizz/Gom.
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Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit?
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On May 31 2010 12:58 Brett wrote: LOL
Kespa hiding behind "the fans".
They probably don't give a shit about the fans but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be good for the fans if kespa won this fight and got a reasonable agreement with blizzard.
To me it seems that kespa is the "lesser evil" in this case.
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On May 31 2010 13:00 [Azn]Nada wrote: God I really don't know which one I dislike more these days... Blizzard for being ridiculously greedy (see the activision blizzard article), or Kespa for their long record of dumb rulings "the pp/ppp and "a" incedences) Does anyone feel at a loss about who to support?
I guess id go with Kespa as they kinda keep ESports alive...
No, Blizzard and Kespa are not arguing over pp and ppp, this has nothing to do with the referees or the rulebooks. This is Blizzard against people who have invested their money and time to grow esports, the corporations, the teams, the broadcasters, the coaches and the players, it has nothing to do with the referees.
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On May 31 2010 12:45 Capook wrote: Blizzard should say "talk to GOM kthx"
kespa should prolly read the EULA
and "other rights outside of common sense" is pretty lol.
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On May 31 2010 13:02 11cc wrote:They probably don't give a shit about the fans but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be good for the fans if kespa won this fight and got a reasonable agreement with blizzard. To me it seems that kespa is the "lesser evil" in this case.
Yeah, when it comes to this I believe that KeSPA is the lesser of 2 evils here.
Blizzard is demolishing eSports. Although KeSPA isn't the best organization ever and has so unnecessary, I truly believe that they're trying to build eSports much more than KeSPA. Although we're not very satisfied with what has happened in the past few years ( Dumb disqualifications, pp incident, etc ) I do think that they care somewhat for the fans.
Blizzard hasn't actually done anything for Brood War since 2004.
Blizzard has already taken away LAN (which is absolutely essential for eSports). Just think, in 10 years when bnet 3.0 comes out do you think that Blizzard will care enough to improve bnet 2.0 for the remaining SC2 fans? They've never really improved the original Battle. Net. just look at how hacker infested it is. Imagine if progamers didn't have lan for SC1 and were forced to play on Bnet.
The Blizzard 12 years ago that created StarCraft is not in existence anymore. The new Blizzard could care less about what happens as long as their wallets and shareholders are happy.
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Wow, Blizzard is really just after the money while i think kespa is really for the fans. i mean did u hear the pierce interview? for kespa u can hear from that one ep. of After Talk about how fans are the root of esports. Please for those that agree with me, please post things like on Blizzard. i've gotten into many arguments over this on forums that have never watched a pro SC match. We need to get the TL community involved in those forums so they can hear us
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I don't give a damn about Blizzard and GOM. They can do whatever they want with SC2, I just hope they stay the hell away from Korean Brood War.
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On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They license the software, which allows them greater control of what can and cannot be done with their software. Most all computer programs make use of this licensing format, since piracy is so common on computer software. Especially with all games being forced to play on bnet, blizz has complete control over how their property (bnet in this case) is used.
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On May 31 2010 13:18 J1.au wrote: I don't give a damn about Blizzard and GOM. They can do whatever they want with SC2, I just hope they stay the hell away from Korean Brood War.
They're touching Korean Brood War.
As they say that KeSPA does not have broadcasting rights to Brood War and signed them to GOM. Thus killing eSports
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I love the attitude of KESPA, as if they are perplexed as to why Blizzard is doing all of this (I know they aren't). Both of these bodies want money, KESPA has been greedy in the past, and Blizzard is now being greedy. KESPA is getting the short end of the stick at this point in time, but considering that I doubt either of these companies give a shit about the fans, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for KESPA.
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On May 31 2010 13:18 J1.au wrote: I don't give a damn about Blizzard and GOM. They can do whatever they want with SC2, I just hope they stay the hell away from Korean Brood War.
yeah, i agree.
even if there's no sc2 for esports, as long as there is korean brood war, i'm fine. i hope the mapmakers can think of new ways to keep the scene interesting.
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On May 31 2010 13:24 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:18 J1.au wrote: I don't give a damn about Blizzard and GOM. They can do whatever they want with SC2, I just hope they stay the hell away from Korean Brood War. yeah, i agree. even if there's no sc2 for esports, as long as there is korean brood war, i'm fine. i hope the mapmakers can think of new ways to keep the scene interesting.
Even if mapmakers can't keep the BW scene interesting...
As long as korean kids keep playing brood war we'll have a next and next generation of brood war players to keep things interesting.
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as said doubt blizz will still negotiate, i just wonder how kespa will respond, will they keep running leagues and prepare for a lawsuit or will they really quit without permission of blizz/gom...
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someone should make a post that thoroughly summarizes the strengths and weaknesses of both sides so we can avoid the similar cycle of reasoning/arguing that goes on in EVERY ONE of these threads. do you all understand that each thread is filled with the same arguments; the only thing different are the usernames posting them.
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Since Blizzard is out for total control of Esports, I have started wondering if they would do the unthinkable... Try to close down the Iccup Brood War server.
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What did you mean by Blizzard being the beneficiary?
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no matter who will win in the end - im very sure the fans and players will be the ones to suffer.
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On May 31 2010 12:57 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:53 Ftrunkz wrote:KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans Am i the only one that finds this really ironic? It's the only reason I included it!
and you think Blizzard cares about the Fans? the only thing they care about is making success off a game they made and they left it alone. years later they come back to take the money and make SC2 and monopolize E-sports. theres no excuse taking so long just to make SC2 expect noticing sc1 is going strong in korea
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All I hope is that GOM is a better replacement than KeSPA. Which wouldn't be very hard.
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Although Kespa has made some really crummy decisions, they are the only organization to effectively create a "pro-scene" and develop Starcraft into an e-sport. Between Blizzard, which doesn't seem to give a shit about the pro-scene, and Kespa, which actually has a vested interest in the scene, it's not hard to choose which one I'd side with.
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I had the feeling Blizzard was trying to be too smart when I talked to one of the customer support guys, now the feeling is growing stronger.
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I really think that when the time comes, Kespa will take them to court, and argue that since Blizzard has kept quiet for years, they cannot come in now and say that they can't play sc1 without their consent. So sc1 will prob be still played, and it will be the battle between sc1 and sc2 scenes. Either way, I don't see Kespa going away.
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Why wouldnt they have a legal claim to royalties?
It's too late for kespa anyways. GOM has the contract, kespa loses. They will have to disband as an association and reform as a league under GOM.
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Are you sure GOM/Blizzard would be happy with broadcasting a lot of Broodwar? Basically I have no problem with GOM as long as they don't kill broodwar broadcasting time or tournaments but i im not really optimistic regarding Blizzards ifluence.
I don't give a damn about Blizzard and GOM. They can do whatever they want with SC2, I just hope they stay the hell away from Korean Brood War.
Yup, i agree.
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I really dont hope broodwar is killed by this. That would be terrible.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
ultimately this will pave a road to a better future in esports as kespa is run by complete idiots
it will hurt for a while though
but still, its kespas fault for being complete idiots towards blizzard since the beginning of sc esports in korea
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
UGH.
As much as I love Blizzard, and as much as I absolutely despise Kespa... I just can't keep thinking that if Kespa goes down in this, progaming is going to take a massive blow it might not be able to recover from.
As much as we all hate Kespa, and know that the "for the fans" line is 100% bullshit, lets face it: they are e-sports. They are so deeply rooted at the corporate level, that if an outsider (ie, Blizzard) were to assume control, I don't think it would exactly be a smooth transition (as I originally did long ago). Thinking about it more, it took Kespa YEARS AND YEARS to get progaming to where it is today in Korea. Yes, we hate them, but you can't deny they did a LOT for the advancement of what we all know and love. Something that, based on their track record, I honestly cannot see Blizzard doing. Does anyone REALLY think Blizzard will spend the time/energy/money and realisitically achieve the same level of corporate 'bonding' and integration that Kespa did? Even with GOM's help (really, GOM would be orchestrating everything anyways), I just don't see it happening.
I think Blizzard is either:
1) Extremely headstrong and not fully aware of what they're getting themselves into if they intend to 'invest' time/effort/money into e-sports, 2) Are really strong/proud/trying to prove a point, or 3) Are just posturing in the hope that a compromise benefits them regardless.
TBH - I rule out both 1 and 2 based on how intelligent and business savvy Blizzard has always shown itself to be. But 'officially signing with GOM' is really suggesting #2. I'm really hoping that when the pieces fall where they do (and I honestly can't see Kespa or Blizzard backing down at this point, I expect this to go the legal route), I really think there will be a Blizzard/Kespa compromise.
I think that's the best we can all hope for, anyways.
EDIT - In response to Rek above, agree 100%. I think he said what I wanted to convey, but in fewer words. Only difference is, I don't know if e-sports will be able to rebound in the interim. Although if Rek is confident (as he knows Korean culture better than most Koreans do it seems), I believe him.
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The way I see it is everything should remain the same except the new "owners" of Korean BW progaming is now GOM instead Kespa. Can't MSL, OSL, and Proleagues just be shipped to GOM or am I oversimplifying the situation?
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Never thought I'd say this (up till a couple months ago), but go KeSPA, go.
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On May 31 2010 13:54 Rekrul wrote: ultimately this will pave a road to a better future in esports as kespa is run by complete idiots
it will hurt for a while though
but still, its kespas fault for being complete idiots towards blizzard since the beginning of sc esports in korea
Really? This from a gaming company that isn't including a whole butt load of features, many of which are kinda needed for pro-gaming, because they don't think it matters? (LAN) This from a gaming company that won't even have clans out at release?
Gimme a break.
We all know Kespa are douchebags, but at least they got the job done. Blizzard won't be getting involved, just like they didn't get involved in sc1, and you're fooling yourself if you think they will.
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Hahahaha. I can already tell what kespa is thinking. "Oh fuck, we need to get Blizzard on the bandwagon again or were screwed".
Still blizzards statements and KeSPA's statements about one another dont match up. Someone is lying...
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imho blizzard is not interested in squeezing the korean bw scene. i personally interpret this move as the placement of a mine right underneath kespa´s ass so blizz is in a stronger position if kespa ever wants to interfere with the way blizz intends to handle and develop the sc2 esports market.
blizz could ruin kespa if they wanted to, but they wont. but by the possibility to do so, blizz basically holds kespa and the old korean esports scene by their balls, so that when blizz wants to do anything esports-related in korea, kespa is in no position to take away market share/money/influence from them.
imho this is a preparational move for setting themselves up to squeeze the max out of a potential sc2 esports scene.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 31 2010 14:00 Ramsing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:54 Rekrul wrote: ultimately this will pave a road to a better future in esports as kespa is run by complete idiots
it will hurt for a while though
but still, its kespas fault for being complete idiots towards blizzard since the beginning of sc esports in korea Really? This from a gaming company that isn't including a whole butt load of features, many of which are kinda needed for pro-gaming, because they don't think it matters? (LAN) This from a gaming company that won't even have clans out at release? Gimme a break. We all know Kespa are douchebags, but at least they got the job done. Blizzard won't be getting involved, just like they didn't get involved in sc1, and you're fooling yourself if you think they will.
i dunno, i still have faith in blizzard for sc2
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Dunno if its just the translation but from the tone of the article it seems to me that KeSPA's def feeling the pressure from Blizzard's moves and seem to know that Blizz has the ability to shut them down if they want to...otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to "the fans" argument. However, I do hope that Blizz will consider coming to some sort of agreement if KeSPA really is serious about negotiating.
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On May 31 2010 14:02 Black Gun wrote: blizz could ruin kespa if they wanted to, but they wont. No they can't, and they have tried. Their case isn't as strong in korean courts.
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:56 Kuri wrote: The way I see it is everything should remain the same except the new "owners" of Korean BW progaming is now GOM instead Kespa. Can't MSL, OSL, and Proleagues just be shipped to GOM or am I oversimplifying the situation?
You're way oversimplifying. Remember, the Kespa board of directors is MADE UP of the OSL/MSL/Proleague and most progaming team's Sponsor companies. Ie, the same people who run OGN and MBCGame and the corresponding leagues are the SAME PEOPLE who run Kespa and all the teams.
You really think they're going to just let Blizzard kill everything they have, then turn around and tell their teams and people running the leagues "Ok, go run along and play/broadcast on GOM now!"
No way in hell.
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how exactly is gom related to kespa? if its owned by cj and cj is part of kespa which one is the higher authority?
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CA10824 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:56 Kuri wrote: The way I see it is everything should remain the same except the new "owners" of Korean BW progaming is now GOM instead Kespa. Can't MSL, OSL, and Proleagues just be shipped to GOM or am I oversimplifying the situation? way oversimplifying things.
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
On May 31 2010 14:15 onewingedmoogle wrote: how exactly is gom related to kespa? if its owned by cj and cj is part of kespa which one is the higher authority?
True - Which is actually the shining light in all of this. Even *IF* everything goes the way Blizzard seems to want it to, I still can't help but feel that the 'controlling interests' will still be in the hands of the same people, not Blizzard. I think Blizzard will masquerade as the ones in control, but everything will really be run locally by GOM and by extension, the old Kespa ruling parties.
That, again, is best case scenario. "Change to something new" but maintain status quo ftw!
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not the best decision for Blizzard in terms of interest for maintaining BW progaming, but Kespa is kind of getting what they deserve
it's ironic that Kespa killed the GOM Invitational and now GOM has the potential to kill Kespa
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It's cute how KeSPA think that they still have a say in this.
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The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fan
that's said, what more to add ? :d
Btw, I wonder if Blizzard is willing to re-negociate now they already signed with GOM :/
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If Blizzard cared about e-sports they would have LAN in sc2 and cross-region play, period. Upon really learning their attitude about these two features in the past couple weeks, my mind swung very strongly from thinking something absolutely needed to be done about Kespa to basically thinking anything Blizzard takes control of will be an abomination.
It's not even caring about fans, it's sort of naive to look at it in that way (how many pro sports owners really, truly care about fans?), but Blizzard with its blatant disregard for these necessary features seems clearly not interested in even having a competitive sc2 scene for the purpose of profiting off of it even, beyond the hype generated by early tournaments (like these in the beta) which probably do the most to boost sales. Kespa though, does clearly have a motivation to care about the competitive product, and it too is reflected in their actions, building the whole structure they have.
I mean maybe GOM will come to the rescue and perform splendidly and save everything, but how likely is that? If only Blizzard would just back down on the stupid LAN and cross region-ing in SC2, I really wouldn't feel so ill and think the whole scene might be on the brink of collapse.
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If Blizzard is really intent on taking this issue all the way, I hope that they follow through with all the expectations of esport fans. They are going to hit rock bottom if they let esports die, while waving around their iron fist.
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On May 31 2010 14:22 Vedic wrote: It's cute how KeSPA think that they still have a say in this. KeSPA doesnt, but the players and the fans do.
The copy of SC sold in USA and SK is almost identical, but why don't you see SC game broadcasts in ESPN? Do think think ESPN doesnt have the money?
It came down to enigmatic players like Boxer and his legion of fans. Clearly, Blizzard doesn't understand their business model. There is nothing preventing the players or fans from supporting another game. As long as there is user demand, MBC could broadcast pr0n starring Flash for all we know.
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From what I understand, didn't Blizzard say they only got involved in this stuff when Kespa decided to sell the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Blizzard obviously feeling that Kespa is in no position to sell the rights to something Kespa doesn't really own. If Blizzard is to be believed, they would have largely stayed out of it if not for that incident.
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I think blizzard is underestimating the potential backlash if this doesnt go very particularly.
All kespa has to do if a deal doesnt get worked out is to parade Flash or Jaedong or another popular player and have them say something along the lines of "I am so sorry to my fans, but we will not be able to hold the MSL and the OSL this year because Blizzard wont negotiate. I wish it could be different, and Im sorry that Im letting you all down. We were working so hard to regain your trust; we hope you will continue to support us in our efforts."
Activision may believe that no publicity is bad publicity, but I dont think that's the case. And I dont think it actually matters what happens behind the scenes, all that matters is how the fans perceive things going down. Blizzard wasnt involved for the longest time, I can see korean fans viewing them as the outsiders and that makes them really easy to blame.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote: Will this reach the Korean courts?
A real funny issue is if it made it to Korean courts, and they sided with KESPA.
Can Blizzard actual do anything about that?
Time for international court legislation? Technically some sort of respect for other countries legislation should be upheld, but this just seems FUBAR.
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On May 31 2010 15:05 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 14:22 Vedic wrote: It's cute how KeSPA think that they still have a say in this. KeSPA doesnt, but the players and the fans do. The copy of SC sold in USA and SK is almost identical, but why don't you see SC game broadcasts in ESPN? Do think think ESPN doesnt have the money?
Culture and opportunity. For one, tournaments in the west mostly supported other games - games like Quake and Counter-strike. They all failed horribly, so sponsors are less than motivated to support another failed venture, regardless of the game.
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Osaka26940 Posts
Did they acknowledge their sale of proleague rights to IEG as being a less than honest deal?
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On May 31 2010 13:54 Rekrul wrote: ultimately this will pave a road to a better future in esports as kespa is run by complete idiots
it will hurt for a while though
but still, its kespas fault for being complete idiots towards blizzard since the beginning of sc esports in korea Do you fully expect professional BW to disappear in Korea?
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On May 31 2010 15:23 Manifesto7 wrote: Did they acknowledge their sale of proleague rights to IEG as being a less than honest deal? I would hope so, as the sale of those rights never existed until they sold them, and if they did, would have belonged to blizzard.
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51132 Posts
On May 31 2010 15:23 Manifesto7 wrote: Did they acknowledge their sale of proleague rights to IEG as being a less than honest deal?
how ironic, it seems kespa have to negotiate with gom now hahahaha.
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Alot of the hate on Blizzard is very unwarranted. People need to look passed that and look at Activision Blizzard. There is a reason that Blizzard has not been actively trying to enforce their IP since 2001 in Korea, because up until 2 years ago was when Bobby Kotick came along. It's not just a coincidence. Activision is out for money, the people who work at blizzard and make these games are genuine passionate people, it's ignorant to shit on them.
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kespa is getting desperate! they already negotiated and got nowhere and now they wanna negotiate again? after the rights have been giving to GOM and the EULA changed?
a little fucking late
Blizzard esports plan is probably just gonna be another goddamn CGS. Fuck sakes theres nowhere to turn
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Down with Intellectual Property!
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Blizzard and we remember when kespa and pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3 and Blizzcon. I was really pissed about July can't go to blizzcon because his team stood with kespa. Blizzard definitely is pissed also.
If Kespa really cared about the fan. Why they told pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3?
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So Kespa is basically trying to use the same arguments against Blizzard as OGN/MBC did against Kespa 2 years ago? This is going to end the same way. Kespa held all the cards then (the players), and Blizzard holds all the cards now (SC,SC2).
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I respect what KeSPA has done for SC:BW, but I am behind Blizzard. KeSPA doesn't give a damn about eSports outside S. Korea. Even when GOM attempted to bring SC to foreigners by hiring Tasteless and Daniel Lee, KeSPA made sure to torpedo that plan. Blizz has a vision for SC:BW and all there products to be as big in the rest of the world as it is in Korea. KeSPA has little or no ground to stand on. Yes, through there blood sweat and tears, they built an industry. Too bad they built it all on someone else's property.
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On May 31 2010 14:30 ZapRoffo wrote: If Blizzard cared about e-sports they would have LAN in sc2 and cross-region play, period. Totally agree, pretty strange how everybody ignore this.
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both sides have their reasonable arguments, both are right imo.
the problem is, bilzzard created this game, it all belongs to them. It's the same with Diablo II. It all belongs to blizzard. All the items, all the characters, . . .
I hope I got both articles right: Blizz gave the broadcasting rights for SC2 to GOM. KeSPA wants the players not to compete there, like they did with Averatec Intel Classic.
KeSPA had the complete control, now Blizz wants a huge piece of the cake.
I am with Blizz at this point, and I hugely disagree with one point of KeSPA.
The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans.
I say: The most important part about eSports ARE the rights of the PLAYERS AND THE FANS. As long as KeSPA treats the players (no real rights) like shit, I'm going with Blizz.
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Can someone clear something up for me? What's to stop KESPA from just saying "f*ck you" to Blizzard and broadcasting anyways? Do US patents apply in Korea, because I know of many IPhone knockoffs being produced and sold in China? And let's say they did take this to court: Who would be the arbitrator? There's no easy way to enforce intellectual property rights internationally.
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If KeSPA had't sold broadcating to Ongamenet and MBC game, this case wouldn't happen. I am with blizzard at this point.
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5003 Posts
Updated with text of the 3 questions asked by KeSPA
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On May 31 2010 15:49 Terakin wrote: I respect what KeSPA has done for SC:BW, but I am behind Blizzard. KeSPA doesn't give a damn about eSports outside S. Korea. Even when GOM attempted to bring SC to foreigners by hiring Tasteless and Daniel Lee, KeSPA made sure to torpedo that plan. Blizz has a vision for SC:BW and all their products to be as big in the rest of the world as it is in Korea. KeSPA has little or no ground to stand on. Yes, through their blood sweat and tears, they built an industry. Too bad they built it all on someone else's property. (1) Korean e-Sports Players Association (KeSPA) "doesn't give a damn about eSports outside of S. Korea". You are completely right about that point.
(2) Blizzard does have a vision for SC:BW - for it to be moved aside for its sequel. Blizzard does not seek to further promote BW to the rest of the world in 2010. But some of their other games - yes.
(3) I like your last sentence "Too bad [KeSPA] built [an industry] on someone else's property". It is true. I think most of TL would wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
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5003 Posts
added Blizzard's response. will be adding Gretech's response in a second
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kespa offered an amount of royalties too low for blizzard to accept, gomtv offered a much larger sum and negotiations are still open. blizzard won't need to negotiate with korean laws, but instead kespa will need to respect its own laws even if it doesnt respect overseas law.
you see the trick to this is to force kespa to negotiate with gom tv. there's actually no hindrance to this esports scene whatsoever.
kespa just needs to pay royalties of such an amount that it can entice gomtv to sell their rights as well to broadcast it. previously it was unethical as the higher ups in kespa made hundreds of thousands (equivalent in $US dollar). Wait one then can ask if kespa is a profit maximisation or non profit government organisation?
kespa is only willing to pay royalties such that they won't be the ones losing money. Gomtv is willing to make a sunk cost high investment and in long run it will pay off. kespa doesnt want to make any loss regardless whether the costs can be recouped over any time period horizon.
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United States32478 Posts
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On May 31 2010 13:22 Salv wrote: Both of these bodies want money, KESPA has been greedy in the past, and Blizzard is now being greedy.... I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for KESPA. Blizzard who are not qualified to run esports are trying to destroy BW and the current scene to make money whereas Kespa wants to promote and continue the scene for the same reason. Seems like an easy call to make, trivial matters like the PPP incidents shouldn't even come into it.
I'm far more inclined to trust Kespa at this point, especially as they have stated they will pay royalties, just not surrender control. All these questions/demands from Kespa seem reasonable as they are the ones asking for transparency in negotiations.
On May 31 2010 15:49 Terakin wrote: KeSPA doesn't give a damn about eSports outside S. Korea Blizzard doesn't give a damn about eSports.
I cannot believe the number of people on TL siding with blizzard trying to secure further SC2 sales through the destruction of pro-BW. It will likely be another wc3, there will be no professional league and esports will go back to the dark ages if Blizzard has it's way. Kotick is just looking to exploit the scene in the short term to sell a bunch of expansions.
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5003 Posts
rofl that's just hilarious
EDIT: Updated
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United States32478 Posts
On May 31 2010 12:45 Capook wrote: Blizzard should say "talk to GOM kthx"
good call man, that's like exactly what they did within the next three hours >_<
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On May 31 2010 12:47 LunarC wrote: The way Activision approaches any sort of business partnership is bound to screw over anyone that isn't Activision...
I'm with this man. Look at what activison did to the infinity ward guys after CoDMW2 came out. In case you didn't know, they found sketchy grounds to fire them so that they wouldn't be forced to pay them royalties for the CoD earnings. I'm with Kespa man what the fuck is blizzards problem?! They are just trying to mug the Koreans to get control of the e-sports market!
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On May 31 2010 14:02 Black Gun wrote: imho blizzard is not interested in squeezing the korean bw scene. i personally interpret this move as the placement of a mine right underneath kespa´s ass so blizz is in a stronger position if kespa ever wants to interfere with the way blizz intends to handle and develop the sc2 esports market.
blizz could ruin kespa if they wanted to, but they wont. but by the possibility to do so, blizz basically holds kespa and the old korean esports scene by their balls, so that when blizz wants to do anything esports-related in korea, kespa is in no position to take away market share/money/influence from them.
imho this is a preparational move for setting themselves up to squeeze the max out of a potential sc2 esports scene.
this + it's only right to let them have all that money up until now, they did it on there blood sweat and tears and it started in there country, they are just doing what makes sense for sc2, and trying to get a good % out of sc1.
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we want to know why Blizzard did not mention Intellectual property rights up to 2006 even though they were aware of such events.
I really like this point. I think someone mentioned this in the GomTV/Blizzard contract thread. It's like they're reading TL.net! I really hope Blizzard resumes negotiations with KeSPA. Redeem your greedy asses of not caring about E-Sports and do the right thing Blizzard. Starcraft wouldn't have been this popular without what KeSPA started.
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On May 31 2010 16:19 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:22 Salv wrote: Both of these bodies want money, KESPA has been greedy in the past, and Blizzard is now being greedy.... I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for KESPA. Blizzard who are not qualified to run esports are trying to destroy BW and the current scene to make money whereas Kespa wants to promote and continue the scene for the same reason. Seems like an easy call to make, trivial matters like the PPP incidents shouldn't even come into it. I'm far more inclined to trust Kespa at this point, especially as they have stated they will pay royalties, just not surrender control. All these questions/demands from Kespa seem reasonable as they are the ones asking for transparency in negotiations.
Yeah I also trust KeSPA to run things better simply because KeSPA makes money from e-sports and nothing else. Which means that KeSPA in the end only worries about keeping the fans watching by providing good tournaments/coverage and so on.
Blizzard on the other hand wanna sell games I doubt they consider e-sports more then a marketing tool.
I dont really consider any of these organizations "nicer" than the other but they got different markets and as an e-sport fan I prefer the one that is niched towards me.
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On May 31 2010 12:45 Capook wrote: Blizzard should say "talk to GOM kthx"
Talk to the guys who's league you destroyed just because you were faggots and couldn't deal with some competition. I would love to see GOM humiliate Kespa in every way possible.
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"- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard"
Does this statment hold for the opinions of the players, coaches etc as well? Or just the team managers?
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One thing I know for sure is that Blizzard has become a disgusting greedy monster.
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I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote: Will this reach the Korean courts?
What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face.
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uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
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On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote: I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice.
Signed on everything in this post.
And yeah its funny how so many of us are defending KeSPA now (I mean its KeSPA :S) but Blizzard is obviously the greater evil in this case.
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1) Even though we, the twelve progame teams, have stated that we would pay royalties for the use of the games to respect Blizzard as the original creator, Blizzard continues to claim that their intellectual property rights are not being respected. We want to know if Blizzard believes that their rights would only be respected only if the following conditions are met - Ownership of everything authored by the players, progame teams, and the broadcast stations - Royalties regarding game use combined with a portion of profits from all tournaments and broadcasts and a royalty for sublicensing - To check and decide on everything regarding things created by broadcasts, sponsorships, and all other marketing activities and the right to audit If not, we want a clear statement regarding Blizzard's position on the matter. Furthermore, we believe that this is just a ploy to increase Blizzard's profits, therefore we wish to know how this relates to advancing eSports in Korea.
I really feel this is the most practical part of the matter. (I made an Oh shi- face at the end of that quote). It would be very hard for Blizzard to argue this matter if this question cannot be answered well enough. Even though KESPA is sneaky at times, I feel they have a more reasonable request than Blizzard at the moment.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote: uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
Because Gom now have the broadcasting rights. Read it all man...
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5003 Posts
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On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote: I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice. Great post, sums it up perfectly.
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i dislike both companies. blizzard is just being a business and doing something any other company with a successful ip would do. Kespa might feel a bit like they are caught with their pants down right now.. but they could have addressed the issue years ago. Its really kespa's own fault for its business practises, blizzard is playing by the book.
but as a gamer, id just like blizzard to stfu and make the game good rather then counting chickens($$$$$$$$) before they hatch.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote: uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
Mr. Han Jung Won, Blizzard Korea's representative announced during this press conference that Blizzard would negotiate with KeSPA but not the Executive Office of KeSPA.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote: I think both sides are completely full of shit. Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. KeSPA is used to having complete and utter control of the Starcraft scene, and there is no way they are going to give that up without a fight. The only problem is that they are trying to bluff their way to victory against an opponent who has every single card.
gg KeSPA, either figure out a way to keep Blizz happy enough that they let you continue to do what you do with minimal interruption (Translation: pay a shit ton), or wait and hope that blizz sponsored esports fails so you can step back in on the cheap.
The one card KeSPA has is the progaming teams. What if they all "protest" what is GOM going to broadcast?
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote: uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
they already sold the rights to GOM. There is nothing left to negotiate with Kespa. Kespa must now negotiate with GOM, and GOM has expressed willingness to do that.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 Baarn wrote:What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face. I think Kespa is thinking about two things mostly:
1.) tacit consent 2.) creation of a "new" product
Regarding tacit consent, I think they pointed this out with Blizzard being made aware of some issues in 2006 and not doing anything thereby giving Kespa a kind of silent agreement to continue with their operations. I am not sure when Blizzard actually tried to establish negotiations with Kespa, so this point might be moot.
With regards to creation of a new product, I am thinking about law here and in the back of my head the following analogy comes up: If you sell me strawberries under the clause of 'reservation of ownership' until the goods are paid for, then the fruits are not mine until I paid for them.
However, if I decide to make some jam or marmelade with the fruits, I create something "new" enough that you cannot claim the jam/marmelade to be yours, if I fail to pay for the fruits. I guess Kespa thinks a bit about this when they say the created e-sports. They used SC1 as an ingredient to create something "new", professional electronic sports in South Korea.
Obviously this analogy is not 100% accurate but I hope you catch my drift.
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On May 31 2010 17:10 Schnake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:46 Baarn wrote:On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote: Will this reach the Korean courts? What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face. I think Kespa is thinking about two things mostly: 1.) tacit consent 2.) creation of a "new" product Regarding tacit consent, I think they pointed this out with Blizzard being made aware of some issues in 2006 and not doing anything thereby giving Kespa a kind of silent agreement to continue with their operations. I am not sure when Blizzard actually tried to establish negotiations with Kespa, so this point might be moot. With regards to creation of a new product, I am thinking about law here and in the back of my head the following analogy comes up: If you sell me strawberries under the clause of 'reservation of ownership' until the goods are paid for, then the fruits are not mine until I paid for them. However, if I decide to make some jam or marmelade with the fruits, I create something "new" enough that you cannot claim the jam/marmelade to be yours, if I fail to pay for the fruits. I guess Kespa thinks a bit about this when they say the created e-sports. They used SC1 as an ingredient to create something "new", professional electronic sports in South Korea. Obviously this analogy is not 100% accurate but I hope you catch my drift.
I think KeSPA is desperate.
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What amazes me the most is how so many people here can side with Blizz on this. Apart from the new comers that know shit about anything else other than SC2, how can a true SCBW fan side with Blizz. Do you actually think that Blizz cares about SCBW anymore. All they want to achieve with this move is to kill SCBW in Korea. "Protect our rights" my ass. Why weren't you protecting your rights three years ago, or ten yeas ago. Now the new Activison/Blizzard and their respective CEO Robert A. Kotick are publishing a new game. The biggest threat to it (apart from it being bad) is the game that REAL Blizzard made, 12 yeas ago. This level of hypocrisy is not something the old Blizz would show. Why don't they just say it out loud, "We want to kill the SCBW in Koera but don't want to make it look that way because of the fans". If they were truly doing this for the eSports and the fans they would let the SCBW scene continue living and possibly outlive SC2 (as happened with their previous strategy game). But obviously that wouldn't earn them any money. No matter how bad Kespa is (and please don't bring the stupid ppp incident for the 1000th time, KeSPA referees have nothing to do with this discussion) they are the ones that depend on the SCBW living on, not Blizz/Activision.
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nimoraca,
i think ur on to something there. i can not imagine why any company would give the IP rights of the match video or replay back to the game creator. this is no longer just an issue of royalty but absurd business practice. given the nature of IP laws, giving in to blizz's demands would be litigation hell in the future.
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I don't know what is written in the license of the game but basically some things in that license might be out of the law. Some simple things:
- All the property of the programs created with a programming language own the author of the program as long as he bought the software.(Took if for free in cases it is free). When we move to the game, I think it's obvious that all the right of the replays created by the gamers own the gamers itself.
- The game is just a tool to create things. If I buy a camera, I have the rights to broadcast whatever I film with the camera, and make money with that content. If I buy the clothes, I have the right broadcast myself owning those clothes. I can broadcast myself writing programs in some programming language, and I can broadcast myself playing "Monopoly" at home.
I don't see why computer game should be anything else. It should be forbidden by the law for the company creating a game, to have any broadcasting rights over the playing game.
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How can anyone side with Blizzard on this? They are going to kill the SC:BW scence...
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On May 31 2010 17:20 nimoraca wrote: What amazes me the most is how so many people here can side with Blizz on this. Apart from the new comers that know shit about anything else other than SC2, how can a true SCBW fan side with Blizz. Do you actually think that Blizz cares about SCBW anymore. All they want to achieve with this move is to kill SCBW in Korea. "Protect our rights" my ass. Why weren't you protecting your rights three years ago, or ten yeas ago. Now the new Activison/Blizzard and their respective CEO Robert A. Kotick are publishing a new game. The biggest threat to it (apart from it being bad) is the game that REAL Blizzard made, 12 yeas ago. This level of hypocrisy is not something the old Blizz would show. Why don't they just say it out loud, "We want to kill the SCBW in Koera but don't want to make it look that way because of the fans". If they were truly doing this for the eSports and the fans they would let the SCBW scene continue living and possibly outlive SC2 (as happened with their previous strategy game). But obviously that wouldn't earn them any money. No matter how bad Kespa is (and please don't bring the stupid ppp incident for the 1000th time, KeSPA referees have nothing to do with this discussion) they are the ones that depend on the SCBW living on, not Blizz/Activision.
THIS
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I don't know who to believe. Blizzard says KeSPA won't negotiate, KeSPA says they were willing to pay royalties.
I just don't really know what to believe here. I think BOTH companies are lying/spinning their words to make it sound like they are trying to do what's right for us, when I don't think it's even either of their jobs at this point.
Blizzard seems to be trying too hard to make eSports grow globally, probably to their monetary benefit. KeSPA, unfortunately, I feel is too reclusive to allow eSports to grow anywhere outside of South Korea. The only thing I think GomTV will do right here is allow foreign broadcasting. That is a damn good idea. But why try to tear up KeSPA along with it? I think both of these companies are just a hindrance more than anything. Although KeSPA less so, because at least the Starcraft community can get their broadcasts around the world. Blizzard is just making Bnet 2.0 very unfriendly to the community that helped show that eSports is legitimate.
Although, maybe an agreement will be made before they lose the rights to the game come August.
I remember the "top 8" division thing. Where did that go? Can't Blizzard show us, rather than tell us, what their plans are? Where is the clan groups feature? Why haven't you elaborated on it? Are you going to update your Community & News page on Bnet 2.0, or is that just there for no reason? What about eSports itself? Are you planning for broadcasting, how do you intend to organize tournaments? Do you want to replicate teams of 1v1 players, will there be incentives for winning, are you planning on working out some deals with CPL, CAL, ESL, or MLG?
You're practically making global tournaments useless with your region locking. And I know it's just for money, because the logic behind it is invalid. Lag? Hah! ICCup begs to differ. You say one thing, but you don't actually back it up with your actions. And a team traveling to a LAN is pointless, because you took that out too.
Actions speak louder than words, Blizzard. I don't have any malice for you giving exclusive rights to KeSPA. Frankly, I don't know how that's going to turn out. I doubt most people here do. But it looks bleak. Maybe we are just impatient.
But Blizzard, you won't be eSports' savior. You don't have the capability. You only need to make the game itself fun and make sure it works. Everyone else should handle the scene.
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On May 31 2010 17:45 arbiter_md wrote: I don't know what is written in the license of the game but basically some things in that license might be out of the law. Some simple things:
- All the property of the programs created with a programming language own the author of the program as long as he bought the software.(Took if for free in cases it is free). When we move to the game, I think it's obvious that all the right of the replays created by the gamers own the gamers itself.
- The game is just a tool to create things. If I buy a camera, I have the rights to broadcast whatever I film with the camera, and make money with that content. If I buy the clothes, I have the right broadcast myself owning those clothes. I can broadcast myself writing programs in some programming language, and I can broadcast myself playing "Monopoly" at home.
I don't see why computer game should be anything else. It should be forbidden by the law for the company creating a game, to have any broadcasting rights over the playing game.
it depends on the EULA. if the EULA demands you to give up title to the game recordings and you click AGREE, then blizz owns it.
the reason you dont see this with other software is because there was no economic reason to add this clause. it was usually in the best interest of the software vendor to help their customer to create things of their own.
the case with blizz is now different. blizz still want you to create things, but they want to capitalize on your work. they are betting that, you, out of love of their game, are willing to donate free labor into their cause.
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On May 31 2010 17:20 nimoraca wrote: What amazes me the most is how so many people here can side with Blizz on this. Apart from the new comers that know shit about anything else other than SC2, how can a true SCBW fan side with Blizz. Do you actually think that Blizz cares about SCBW anymore. All they want to achieve with this move is to kill SCBW in Korea. "Protect our rights" my ass. Why weren't you protecting your rights three years ago, or ten yeas ago. Now the new Activison/Blizzard and their respective CEO Robert A. Kotick are publishing a new game. The biggest threat to it (apart from it being bad) is the game that REAL Blizzard made, 12 yeas ago. This level of hypocrisy is not something the old Blizz would show. Why don't they just say it out loud, "We want to kill the SCBW in Koera but don't want to make it look that way because of the fans". If they were truly doing this for the eSports and the fans they would let the SCBW scene continue living and possibly outlive SC2 (as happened with their previous strategy game). But obviously that wouldn't earn them any money. No matter how bad Kespa is (and please don't bring the stupid ppp incident for the 1000th time, KeSPA referees have nothing to do with this discussion) they are the ones that depend on the SCBW living on, not Blizz/Activision.
This, but paragraphed would be better ;P
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I support GOMTV / Blizzard here.... I think GOMTV had much better casts than KESPA! I hope they fix it though. Kespa holds the teams so.... It would suck if they lose all the casting rights!
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I don't why there is so much fanboyism in this and the issue regarding morality. Keep all your biased opinions to yourself. Too much BS talk the truth has been clouded by journalists and execs. Too much politics involved and protesting.
The fact remains GOMTV successfully struck a deal with blizzard. How was this possible? MONEY$$$$.
Kespa didn't respect overseas law and basically violated the NDA between the two. This issue regarding products /IP does not and has nothing to do with international law. Who is the judge where is divine and absolute justice?
Legal contracts are a very touchy thing my friend, and they rely a lot on trust and integrity. What if one party fouls/violates a term in the contract. Who has the power to punish? No one.
Kespa now has to deal with its own law with GOM-tv(a korean company). Just like others say whose country's law takes precedence? Once again ambiguity.
Trust between GOMtv and Blizzard have been built already(past events).
Kespa can still have a chance with SC2, as long as they negotiate with GOMTV. End of story.
Who cares about blizzard being greedy, all you guys who said to boycott just like the fans for L4d2 and MW2 (who set up steam boycott groups) still eventually bought the game. Get on with life spend your money be happy something was made.
That's what they say, like any government organisation not for profit. Kespa needs to pay an amount sweet enough no one could afford to reject. if you've worked in TV industry you'll know tv networks make a hell al ot of money. Ratings are extremely important for a tv show to be broadcasted, kespa employees get compensated through the ridiculous amounts of money flowing into esports scene.
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5003 Posts
Updated with a few sections from Q & A session.
Apparently KeSPA is a non profit organization. Did not know that. No wonder they're so inefficient ^^;;;
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Wouldn't it be funny if after SC2 was released, GomTV just gave all the broadcasting rights to KeSPA no charge!
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On May 31 2010 17:59 BaltA wrote: I support GOMTV / Blizzard here.... I think GOMTV had much better casts than KESPA! wtf have you been smoking? the only thing gom had on ogn and mbc was english casts (which don't make sense in a korean channel) everything else was shit by comparison.
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How can anyone possibly support either side at this point? They each give conflicting information. We are never going to get a true story of what is going on. Could Blizzard be in the wrong? Possibly. Could Kespa be in the wrong? Possibly. Are they both acting completely retarded? Yes.
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If you really side with Blizz on this than you either: 1) believe that Blizz/GOM will try hard to make SCBW continue living in Korea or 2) you want SCBW to die because you also see it as a threat to your beloved SC2 shit.
If you are 1) then you are delusional, go see a doctor. If you are 2) than you are threatened by the SCBW for a reason .
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Oh man, what a sea of hatred of Blizzard and sudden surge of dare I say it, love for KeSPA. I feel like I've slipped into some sort of bizzaro tl.net. Seriously. KeSPA is throwing a fit, it's trying everything it can to hold onto something that wasn't for them to control in the first place. Of course they are going to do every thing they can to make it sound like they are just trying to care for the fans and it's all for them. Yeah sure it is, and when the fans where screaming to stop screwing over players in the free agency disaster they did the right thing. Only after realizing they would loose a star(money making) player if they didn't pull some last minute deal. KeSPA cares about the money, they don't give a damn about the fans they've kinda proven this time and time again. I trust Blizzard more then I trust them, mostly because hey, for all the bashing people do. They haven't made a terrible game yet. In the end, KeSPA will have to sit down to negotiate with Gom and it'll work out. What choice do they have? It's my understanding(I could very well be wrong) that the Gom owners also own OGN and it's unlikely that they are going to do something crazy like not negotiate with themselves.
Brood War will be safe so long as the fans support it and from the looks of it, that's unlikely to go away soon.
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Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win.
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I dislike both KeSPA and Blizzard so I just hope for the best. I hope that neither gets what he wants and that should be best for fans.
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For me the hate towards Kespa has always been like the hate towards jews. Everybody hates them, but doesnt know exactly why.
As Kespa said in their statement esports is already a sub-culture in S. Korea and like it or not it has developed thanks to the efforts of Kespa. What scares me the most is the fact that GOM will try to promote SC2 on the place of SC1 (I`m really curious to see the details in the contract between blizz and Gom, I`m sure that there is a clauses stating that SC2 should be the most broadcasted game). And its pretty obvious to me that SC2 doesnt have the esport potential that SC1 has. Its even worse than WC3 imo. (this doesnt mean that SC2 is not good, its just not that competitive).
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On May 31 2010 18:50 mdb wrote: For me the hate towards Kespa has always been like the hate towards jews. Everybody hates them, but doesnt know exactly why.
I hate Blizzard and I know why I don't hate KeSPA but I don't like them, either.
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I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game.
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guys, for all you slow minded ppl i will try to explain what this is all about, how blizzard doesn't care about esport, fans teams or anything
1.Why should we buy 3 games in order to play sc2 ?, they say if you buy them u can play online , but i think after 1 year this will change and we will have to pay monthly like mmorpg's 2.There will be no lan , cause simply that doesn't make money for them , playing at home with your frends with no lag , ofcourse on all servers trust me there will be masive lag 3.This all new fight about rights it's simply to destroy kespa and sc1, thow kespa and the teams and fans made sc1 so popular NOT BLIZZARD, and made sc1 sales go crazy 4.if anybody fallowed gomtv classic competition knows at first it was all fine , then when blizzard participate they where asking for money for every vod, hd broadcast ,they even made the normal stream quality down so we pay , and after one year of blizzard participation the competition was canceled, this is what blizzard is bringing us 5.if kespa and teams will be destroyed , u whont have ever another competition like osl and msl , with large stages , 20K+ fans and so on , look how crappy , is blizzcon every year , that 's what blizzard is only capable off 6.in negotiation with kespa , u have to be really stupid,if you say that you whant to own every game and team "" this demands where simply put cause blizzard knows no one will accept them , so imposible negociation
p.s as you see we whont have any sc with sc2 , no good games, so for this reason's i whont buy any blizzard products anymore , and gg blizzard for destroying 10 years of hard effort from korean scene to make a fenomenon of esport
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Doesn't anyone else think the answer is really simple? acti-FUCKING-vision.
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On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game.
So, what exactly is your problem with that?
I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs.
So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries.
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About time Blizzard laid the smack down on those idiots.
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On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. kespa didnt sell broadcasting rights to blizz's games. they sold the broadcasting rights on the video which records a game that was organized by kespa.
if any other body organize their game on their own and broadcast it, it doesnt violate the kespa "broadcast rights".
when you watched a baseball match, does MLB owns the video stream rights (which was sold to ESPN and others) or does the company that make the baseball equipment owns it?
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mdb dude , gom classic 1,2 where whithout any blizzard implication , when blizzard got implicated we had to pay for everything, and then the competition was stoped , so don't talk crap , ofcourse english commentary was good but , it wasn't blizzard who hired them , it was gom, so don't talk crap
p.s i don't know why u guys hate kespa, it's like hating the law and the police (still we hate those to sometime ) , but kespa made some rules , and it's only applying them this is what made sc scene possible as it is today , and this is why in other countryes it is still the disorder as it always was regarding sc i mean, with ppl cursing when they are playing and using hacks
good example dybydx, we can extrapolate this it's the ball from soccer and the field owner , would ask for everithin in soccer ( and not fifa), or the same thing in american football and so on
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I'm with QibingZero and nimoraca's posts - the timing is obviously so that Blizzard can hopefully cut down on BW's strength in order to help SC2 succeed.
Still, I'm calling it right here - with CJ's partial control of Gretech (and majority control of OGN) - OGN and MBC are going sign deals to sublicense, the terms will be kept private, and pro-BW will continue and we'll never know exactly how much Blizzard was able to extract from Gretech, and how nice (or bad?) a deal OGN and MBC have to pay up to Gretech.
As far as I can tell the entire Pro-BW shindig is there so that the major sponsors can produce a show that a young audience will watch for relatively low cost - it's all about selling SKT and KT phones and services, etc.
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KeSPA can always choose to ignore Blizz threats. KeSPA doesn't care about SC2. They don't want it. They want SCBW which has LAN play and Blizz can do nothing about it. They can take KeSPA to Korean court but that is a long shot...
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On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: guys, for all you slow minded ppl i will try to explain what this is all about, how blizzard doesn't care about esport, fans teams or anything 1.Why should we buy 3 games in order to play sc2 ?, they say if you buy them u can play online , but i think after 1 year this will change and we will have to pay monthly like mmorpg's
Yes, because after 10 years of free b.net for Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Starcraft, Starcraft:BW, Diablio1, and Diablio 2, they will start to charge for Starcraft 2? Sounds to me like you are imagining the worst and then insisting that it will happen when the history shows otherwise.
On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 2.There will be no lan , cause simply that doesn't make money for them , playing at home with your frends with no lag , ofcourse on all servers trust me there will be masive lag
Have you ever tried playing over bnet with only people connected to you by lan? I have all the time on war3, and let me tell you, it operates at lan speeds. This leads me to beleive that if you have a legit copy of sc2, and have internet connection to log onto bnet, you can have lan play at lan speeds no worries.
Again, you just assume the worst and tell others to trust you that there will be massive lag when war3 proves otherwise.
On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 3.This all new fight about rights it's simply to destroy kespa and sc1, thow kespa and the teams and fans made sc1 so popular NOT BLIZZARD, and made sc1 sales go crazy
Fair enough to say Blizzard doesn't like Kespa, but don't make it seem like Kespa made SC1 popular for Blizzard's sake. First, Kespa started to manage SC1 because it was already insaely popular and Kespa was like "Hey, we can make money off this.". You can argue they have Prolonged SC:BW's popularity, but again that was for purely selfish reasons by Kespa.
On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 4.if anybody fallowed gomtv classic competition knows at first it was all fine , then when blizzard participate they where asking for money for every vod, hd broadcast ,they even made the normal stream quality down so we pay , and after one year of blizzard participation the competition was canceled, this is what blizzard is bringing us
Gom was fine until Kespa killed it by not allowing any progamers to compete.
On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 5.if kespa and teams will be destroyed , u whont have ever another competition like osl and msl , with large stages , 20K+ fans and so on , look how crappy , is blizzcon every year , that 's what blizzard is only capable off
True, nothing compares to osl or msl or PL, but blizzard doesn't want to particularly kill kespa, kespa simply has to talk to gom and pain royalties to stay alive.
On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 6.in negotiation with kespa , u have to be really stupid,if you say that you whant to own every game and team "" this demands where simply put cause blizzard knows no one will accept them , so imposible negociation
I don't think any reasonable person will try to discuss why negotiations broke down since both sides give conflicting information, and it would be foolish to only believe what Kespa has to say about it.
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i hate what blizz has become, im not a big fan of kespa but i do respect what that have done and do for e-sports, ive followed brood wars most of my young life and was looking forwards to sc2 joining that line up but i dont see it growing at this rate.
Quite sad really this could have been the next big step (taking away from sc2 not being as dynamic to watch imo) for e-sports but everyone was too busy with being greedy and having control.
right now i back kespa (for all they have done for e sports) aswell as GOM (for trying to bridge the gap even when blizz didnt)
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On May 31 2010 19:06 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. kespa didnt sell broadcasting rights to blizz's games. they sold the broadcasting rights on the video which records a game that was organized by kespa. if any other body organize their game on their own and broadcast it, it doesnt violate the kespa "broadcast rights". when you watched a baseball match, does MLB owns the video stream rights (which was sold to ESPN and others) or does the company that make the baseball equipment owns it?
Wait, if you took away what blizzard owns, (As in, everything in the game such as sounds, animations, music, etc.) What exactly does kespa own to sell to others?
If baseball was a game that you could only play with specialized equipment and settings that you cannot reproduce then the company that makes the equipment and made up the settings/rules owns it.
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On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries.
Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc?
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On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc?
Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over.
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On May 31 2010 12:55 DrivE wrote: Blizzard listen to Kespa: Do it for the fans.
Do you really want chat rooms?
Fan? Thats that thing cooling down the air in my office, right?
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On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over.
Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams.
Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play.
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On May 31 2010 19:36 futoM4ki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:55 DrivE wrote: Blizzard listen to Kespa: Do it for the fans. Do you really want chat rooms? Fan? Thats that thing cooling down the air in my office, right? Ice burn.
But it's true - Blizzard is handling this so terribly that they're making the player-exploiting Kespa look partially good.
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On May 31 2010 19:16 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:58 lastreason wrote: 2.There will be no lan , cause simply that doesn't make money for them , playing at home with your frends with no lag , ofcourse on all servers trust me there will be masive lag Have you ever tried playing over bnet with only people connected to you by lan? I have all the time on war3, and let me tell you, it operates at lan speeds. This leads me to beleive that if you have a legit copy of sc2, and have internet connection to log onto bnet, you can have lan play at lan speeds no worries. Again, you just assume the worst and tell others to trust you that there will be massive lag when war3 proves otherwise. You sir are wrong. There already was a LAN tournament with lags in China. It doesn't work like that and, although I didn't play w3, I doubt it did work like that in w3. Please do some research before telling others they are wrong.
And don't forget about needing Bnet to be online to play tournaments. If Bnet goes down it's pretty ruined tournament/LAN party if you ask me.
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"eSports cannot just be approached simply as Blizzard's promotion logic."
This is the line here that is most important.
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randombum,
1. LAN v Bnet Connection I think you both missed the point. The reason why Blizz force you to use bnet is not just piracy. It is easy to fake bnet auth using 3rd party software like Garena. By forcing you to use bnet, they can offer you pay contents. Remember how latency can be changed in SC1 but not WC3? (This is despite a hidden low latency setting does in fact exist in WC3) Blizz can choose to enable the low latency in SC2, for a fee of course.
The point is, mandatory Bnet Connection is a portal to more money.
2. KeSPA I believe the SK pro-gamers became paid positions around the same time KeSPA was formed. Certainly Blizz did the same amount of work promoting esport in USA as they did in SK. The results in USA doesn't look very promising.
KeSPA already claimed that they agree to pay royalties, but Blizz want control. ie IP rights over replays. From a business perspective, this is litigation nightmare for KeSPA or any broadcaster.
My family rent a business property from someone who is often overseas. Despite we speak the same language, we need their permission to replace a broken air conditioner or change our advertising sign. The result? We refused to do maintenance on the property out of fear of legal disputes.
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On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play.
Yeah, I guess this is what most probably happened, but this doesnt change the fact that we (fans) had one more tournament to enjoy and after Blizzards intervention there was no more GOM.
The existance of leagues, tournaments in Korea is what matters to me and I believe to all people who love starcraft and has supported this game for 12 years. I dont care if Kespa broke some law, or didnt paied some money to Blizzard.
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote: Q: Blizzard claims that game usage in leagues is not a communal right but something under intellectual property. What do you think about this?
- While the game is owned by the company, the game is different from eSports. eSports only has game as the subject matter, it does not evolve around just the players but as a spectator sport, and thus a culture that needs many workers and their efforts and skills. It was already recognized in China as an official sport, and last year in the Asians games it was recognized as an official sport, and so it is something that is evolving as a sport globally - Sports is not just for/owned by the "Manias" (T/N: Fans really involved in it. Think "Otaku") or special organizations. It has a communal property where normal spectators can watch and be involved in. - If eSports is not a communal property and belongs to an international company called Blizzard, then the entire eSports industry in Korea and the existance of KeSPA becomes wrong from the beginning. All recognition and gains as a culture and sponsorship from Airforce etc disappears. - Sports needs to guarantee Public Viewing, and so it has a communal property. eSports cannot just be approached simply as Blizzard's promotion logic. - There are many examples such as the CGS event that shows that no matter how much you invest in, if it's done for personal gain then you cannot suceed
Amen.
Blame Activision* for this mess: Blizzard started the talks in 2007, after the start of the merge talks.
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win.
Erm, no.
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If there is an open audit regarding KeSPA's accounts and shown to the public that they are not profiting from what they have claimed then I don't get why Blizzard is trying to grab KeSPA by the balls since Blizzard paid nothing to KeSPA and pretty much got free advertising for years.
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On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play. Kespa didn't sell the rights to broadcast starcraft in korea, kespa sold the right to use their players (the ones they officially represent and the ones they pay the salary for) in a tournament. And apparantly 100% of that money is invested back into the players and teams, I fail to see how this is a bad deal, I also fail to see how blizzard is getting shafted by it.
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On May 31 2010 19:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win. Erm, no. Well according to OP they are prepared to let independent auditers (or whatever the word is in english) verify just that.
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I think KeSPA will sue Blizzard/gomtv over the broadcast rights to SC1. If KeSPA can get an injunction they might be able to keep things running untill trial. But this is all just wild speculation untill we get more info.
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On May 31 2010 19:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play. Kespa didn't sell the rights to broadcast starcraft in korea, kespa sold the right to use their players (the ones they officially represent and the ones they pay the salary for) in a tournament. And apparantly 100% of that money is invested back into the players and teams, I fail to see how this is a bad deal, I also fail to see how blizzard is getting shafted by it.
From the Q:A
Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights? - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporations so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches.
Their answer implies they DID sell the rights to broadcast despite reinvesting the money (which is silly because its the same as making money for the big corporations, because every cent kespa makes and "reinvests" is another cent the corporations that make up kespa save. In that sense it is profit and still get the PR rep of saying non-profit)
I also fail to see why blizzard would be made at kespa for charging use of players it makes no sense for blizzard to be upset for gom being willing to pay for access to good players.
But the response and the fact that blizzard did have a big problem implies to me at least, that kespa tried to sell the broadcasting rights to a game they don't own and blizzard did not like it.
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Poetic justice imo for KeSPA shutting down the GOM leagues by making their teams refuse to play, if it wasnt for that I'd side with KeSPA but I just cannot forgive that.
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On May 31 2010 12:47 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. It's too late. What is there to negotiate about? Blizzard already gave the broadcasting rights to GOM. Indeed, looks like theres nothing left on the table, its too late for Kespa already. Its either, Kespa blew it or Blizzard is being unreasonable. The current state of the Beta, plus all those crappy things we already know will be there after game gets released...well do the math^^
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On May 31 2010 20:07 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On May 31 2010 19:38 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:33 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 19:28 randombum wrote:On May 31 2010 19:05 mdb wrote:On May 31 2010 18:55 randombum wrote: I like how Kespa acts like they have the rights to sell the broadcasting rights to Blizzard's game. So, what exactly is your problem with that? I dont understand why so many people react like they`ve been fucked in the ass for all this selling of rights. If Kespa didnt negotiated with GOM, would there been GOM 1,2 and 3? Maybe, but the players would have been some unknown amateurs. So, in the end what we got from all this terrible "selling of rights behind blizzard`s back" - 3 nice tournaments with some sick games and english commentaries. Hmmm... I may be mistaken in what I think Kespa did. What I thought happened was, kespa was making money showing SC, so they were like you can make money too IF you pay us for the right to broadcast starcraft. Why should gom have to pay KESPA to show SC, shouldn't they pay blizzard if they want to show sc? Honestly I dont know what exactly happened between Kespa/Gom/Blizzard back then. And I dont think anyone on these forums know. We can only speculate. But the fact is that GOM tournament died at the moment in which Blizzard take over. Well, it makes logical sense to me that it went like. Blizzard joins the game, finds out Blizzard's rights have been sold by kespa to gom. They do something like WTF kespa, why did you sell our rights you stop now! Kespa goes ok, gl having gom with no pro teams. Makes sense because blizzard decided it wanted to sell the rights/ did not like kespa selling the rights so they did something to get kespa to stop (I believe a law suit happened.) Kespa response is also logical because since they cannot make money from gom anymore they kill off a competitor by dis allowing proteams to play. Kespa didn't sell the rights to broadcast starcraft in korea, kespa sold the right to use their players (the ones they officially represent and the ones they pay the salary for) in a tournament. And apparantly 100% of that money is invested back into the players and teams, I fail to see how this is a bad deal, I also fail to see how blizzard is getting shafted by it. From the Q:A Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights? - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporations so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches. Their answer implies they DID sell the rights to broadcast despite reinvesting the money (which is silly because its the same as making money for the big corporations, because every cent kespa makes and "reinvests" is another cent the corporations that make up kespa save. In that sense it is profit and still get the PR rep of saying non-profit) I also fail to see why blizzard would be made at kespa for charging use of players it makes no sense for blizzard to be upset for gom being willing to pay for access to good players. But the response and the fact that blizzard did have a big problem implies to me at least, that kespa tried to sell the broadcasting rights to a game they don't own and blizzard did not like it. When kespa "shut down gom" they didn't really shut them down did they? They simply denied gom access to kespa licsenced players which of course lead to gom shutting down by themselves since noone would watch starcraft that's not featuring those players. Wording it as broadcasting rights was an extremly bad descion on their part but it seems quite clear that's not what it effectively is.
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I don't think Kespa the organization had anything to denying players to the GomTV tournament.
But I think the teams didn't see how a third individual league would be a good use of their player's practice time (from the TEAM'S point of view, to promote the team brand) since the GomTV tournament was NOT ON TELEVISION! pro-BW exists simply to provide a medium to air ads for the sponsors' products! since GomTV's reach sucked (from a Korean company's point of view to reach a Korean audience) it wasn't worth diverting resources/player attention
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Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
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On May 31 2010 20:08 Kuja900 wrote: Poetic justice imo for KeSPA shutting down the GOM leagues by making their teams refuse to play, if it wasnt for that I'd side with KeSPA but I just cannot forgive that.
You know, not all teams rejected gomtv. About 5 or 6 teams still wanted to play, but GomTV themselves shut the league down because they said it wasn't enough. (GomTV never run with all the teams, to start with)
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Kespa fighting!
If you guys can beat Flash in MSL, you can beat Blizzard and GOM tag team in Korea. After all the SC2 LAN/chat room BS I have no faith in Blizzard. GTFO of my SCBW. Do whatever you want with SC2.
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
On May 31 2010 20:00 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win. Erm, no. Well according to OP they are prepared to let independent auditers (or whatever the word is in english) verify just that.
Verify that Kespa is non-profit??? I can assure you, Kespa is very much concerned about making a profit...
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No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on.
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I'll give KeSPA one thing: When you see footage of their games, how the fans are carrying merchandising of one or another team and sometimes of a specific player, you know it's not just Starcraft that's popular- the progamers and their teams are also a source of passion for the fans, and the teams are all with KeSPA (not sure about the players).
With SC2, however, KeSPA won't get the opportunity to garner fan loyalty to themselves, because they put themselves in a situation where they bit the hand that fed them (basically denied Blizzard any recognition or revenues or ANYTHING for using their game Starcraft for all sorts of commercial purposes), and now they're surprised that the same hand is asking for guarantees before feeding them again, but they want another free meal.
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To question some statements tht I saw during readings of replies. Blizzard is not the biggest gaming company by far. If anyone knows anything about the corporate world companies like blizzard make small profits compared to other companies. Reading all of this makes me wonder if vivendi will step into the situation. Also the thing about the kespa responses is that they seem much more humbled and pleasant than blizzard. While we can rag on their past decisions, their actions of late are something to look well at. They at LEAST put the appearance of having esports grow, andnot have the work of eleven years be rewriten. Also if blizzard actually had major problems with kespa why hasn't this issueEVER been addressed prior to the launch of sc2?
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Baltimore, USA22221 Posts
On May 31 2010 20:42 Zona wrote: No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on.
Sure... but Kespa is literally made-up of and run by the people that DO profit from all of this (seriously, look who serves on their board of directors). They made an organization to help... themselves. Sure, by definition maybe Kespa isn't churning a profit, but you've got to be kidding me if you think they're not indirectly concerned with anything other than self-preservation and self-interest; which is, of course, making a profit.
Not that there is anything wrong with that btw - Companies are supposed to make money or they die. Just don't try to sugarcoat it to be anything other than what it is based on 'structure' and semantics.
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GOM Starleauge was crappy, because it had no reputation at all. At the beginning it started with pro players, but they didn't really care in my opinion. Starleauge, MSL, Proleauge were enough in the busy schedule.
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Can somebody explain to me why we should trust KeSPA? To me, it seems like KeSPA and perhaps Blizzard have it out for eachother. KeSPA made the first strike by breaking the NDA and is continuing its attacks by forcing its teams to rally together against Blizzard, meanwhile Blizzard continues to remain silent simply saying that they already made the deal with GomTV (and maintaining its NDA agreements).
Maybe Blizzard should consult with GomTV and KeSPA to see if they can call off the NDA to clear everything up?
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If this goes to court in skorea, im pretty sure kespa is going to get up on top. So it feels like Blizzard is just trying to use scare tactics while kespa is completely ignoring blizzards demands and just talks about how it would hurt e-sport.
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On May 31 2010 20:24 ReneFlores wrote: Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
There is one big problem with your argument, Kespa is a Korean company operating under Korean law, which means they have a pretty damned good chance of winning any case brough to court. They might be on shakier grounds with SC2 but I'm about 90% sure they would win a case in Korea. (And 100% sure they would lose in the states, but thats not where it would happen)
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Look, Kespa is basically the organization of pro-team sponsors.
But are the sponsors profiting from supporting e-sports at all? They invest hundreds of thousands per year, but that money doesn't return to them directly. There is no ticket sale, there is no significant sale of e-sport related merchandise. They profit from the image and advertising that help them to sell non-esport related products.
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On May 31 2010 20:56 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:24 ReneFlores wrote: Get real guys, Blizzard owns all the rigths to allow, or not third partys to use their games for their own purposes, name it be tournaments, in-game footage, etc.
Is it right for them to take advantage on what Kespa (because its them who help take sc1 to the next level) did, and now take it by force?
NO, its not right, just as what Kespa did to GOM to take them out of business wasnt right.
Can Blizzard take it by force?
Yes they can, Kespa would be dumb to get into a lawswit with Activision Blizzard, currently the biggest video game company, and one of the few that keeps making insane amounts of profit. Blizzard can afford better lawyers, and if they lose Kespa will completly disappear, since they will never have any more money to be able to keep running leagues for other games.
Blizzard owns the rights for any game they have made, and its up to them to allow others to profit off it or not.
Fortunately and Unfortunately (For us), sc-sc2 is not the only e-sport, Kespa can let it go and still make tournaments with other still popular current and upcoming games, like the MGL has been doing for a long time.
Kespa should just let it go, and the only thing anyone can do as fans is to just sit and watch, and hope blizzard really wants to make e-sports grow (which by some of the desitions they've made already is unlikely.
There is one big problem with your argument, Kespa is a Korean company operating under Korean law, which means they have a pretty damned good chance of winning any case brough to court. They might be on shakier grounds with SC2 but I'm about 90% sure they would win a case in Korea. (And 100% sure they would lose in the states, but thats not where it would happen)
Im sorry bro, the Berne Convention on copyright laws says otherwise. This world is ruled by money and power, not nationality. Regardless of where this is taken to court, a judge has to follow the law, and most laws are made to protect big companys. This is the same reason why patents are shuch a big deal, this is pretty much the same, KESPA just cant use Blizzard games to make profit without their permission, it cant happen.
The argument they made about adidas is completly retarded, Adidas didnt invent soccer, if they did however, belive me, they wouldnt allow other companys to get a piece of the cake.
Kespa's best hope right now is to forget about Starcraft, and just aim to get other games popular, its their own fault for putting all their eggs on one basket.
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I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play.
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On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. Did they really offer royalties? Is there any documented proof of this or is it something that they are just saying? They have already lied several times, whether on purpose or not... so why should anybody trust what they say?
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On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play.
I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players.
Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
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On May 31 2010 20:00 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win. Erm, no. Well according to OP they are prepared to let independent auditers (or whatever the word is in english) verify just that.
lol. Just because you reinvested all your earnings back into the company doesn't mean you aren't profitable nor does it mean that you do not seek profit. People's wages increase, donations are made, yeah.
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On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them?
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On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
You're so clueless.
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On May 31 2010 21:01 dukethegold wrote: Look, Kespa is basically the organization of pro-team sponsors.
But are the sponsors profiting from supporting e-sports at all? They invest hundreds of thousands per year, but that money doesn't return to them directly. There is no ticket sale, there is no significant sale of e-sport related merchandise. They profit from the image and advertising that help them to sell non-esport related products.
What are you trying to argue????
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On May 31 2010 20:49 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:42 Zona wrote: No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on. Sure... but Kespa is literally made-up of and run by the people that DO profit from all of this (seriously, look who serves on their board of directors). They made an organization to help... themselves. Sure, by definition maybe Kespa isn't churning a profit, but you've got to be kidding me if you think they're not indirectly concerned with anything other than self-preservation and self-interest; which is, of course, making a profit. Not that there is anything wrong with that btw - Companies are supposed to make money or they die. Just don't try to sugarcoat it to be anything other than what it is based on 'structure' and semantics. Are you familiar with how industry works? These nonprofit organizations run by companies are actually quite common, and while they may seem to have conflicts of interest, they work.
Take for example the IEEE, the organization responsible for a good portion of modern technology standards. They are a nonprofit organization which created standards such as wlan (wifi) and ethernet. They are a consortium of companies which all vote on certain technology standards for both the benefit of their own companies, as well as for the general benefit of the industry.
They in fact created certain industries, such as the wireless industry. Sure, anyone can make their own proprietary wireless standard and sell it, but who would buy it? If there is a common standard endorsed by the industry, then all companies will jump on board, and a new technology will have been created.
Kepasa is the same way. You, for example, could start your own progaming team, and sell the broadcasting rights to it. Of course no one would be interested in buying them because its not standardized and endorsed by industry. Kepasa doesn't have a monopoly on anything. Anyone could start up their own progaming organization and get a consortium of companies to sponsor them (such as blueray vs hd dvd).
Blizzard on the other hand does claim a monopoly. This is a proprietary organization who wants to own its own industry from top to bottom.
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A: As long as KeSPA keeps up negotiations they can broadcast their material without Blizzard taking action. This way they won't have to expend minerals until later, which means they can invest in a new base, exponentially increasing their economic advantage. With this in hand, they can pay out of pocket without the damaging costs that would have occurred had they negotiated for an early settlement or had they made Blizzard force their hand before the present time or the date of future and final negotiations.
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Really the thing i take away from all of this is that Blizzard is doing to KeSPA what KeSPA did to GOMTV. turnabout is fair play in my book.
Also honestly i know for a fact that 100% of the truth has no come out about this Blizzard vs KeSPA saga so honestly picking one side over the other is really just a popularity contest.
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As people already mentioned, there is no direct profit for corporations involved in KeSPA. These corporations pay big money for the players, teams, housing, organization of tournaments. eSports in Korea never got to a point where it was big like some other sports (football for example). It probably never will. There is not that much money there in the first place. Just look at MBC having problems finding sponsors for the several last MSLs. The best players are payed what, maybe 200 thousand a year. Most of the rest are happy if they can live of the salary. In other sports best players are payed tens of millions a year. That is not because KeSPA is some evil organization that overworks the players and pays them poorly, but because there is not enough interest. If there were 30 million people watching eSports in Korea there would be a lot more money for the players. On top of all this Blizz is acting like there are billions of dollars of profit in Korean progaming scene.
I personally wouldn't expect this kind of behavior even from the likes of Microsoft. I work in a company that makes energy distribution software, exclusively for Windows. Just by promoting the Windows operating system and SQL Server, we get all the required software and support from Microsoft for free. Blizz is basically trying to charge you for promoting their product, even though they earned more than 150$ mil on SCBW in Korea alone.
If all goes as Blizz has planned, there won't be SCBW progaming in Korea anymore. Do you really want that?
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh.
- 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you. - oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0
Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say.
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On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them?
Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart.
On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless.
Nice contribution. Suck my balls.
Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself.
If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first.
Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves.
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well yeah sure , you dont give royalties to adidas for selling a football BUT you do give royalties to fifa to broadcast the game! unless its like the olympics where anyone can show it,
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On May 31 2010 21:33 T0fuuu wrote: well yeah sure , you dont give royalties to adidas for selling a football BUT you do give royalties to fifa to broadcast the game! unless its like the olympics where anyone can show it,
actually... olympic videos are IP of the organization that operates the olympic game of that year. ie in 2008 it was the Beijing Olympic's Committee.
in many of the sports we know, the organizer of the tournament owns the videos. MLB owns baseball, NHL owns hockey, NBA owns basketball etc....
so if you are asked on your SAT exam, "NFL to American Football is as _________ to Korean Starcraft", how would you answer?
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On May 31 2010 21:32 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them? Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless. Nice contribution. Suck my balls. Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself. If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first. Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves.
You are so stupid it hurts. You're digging yourself a hole and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
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I think what we've established over the last few days is that KeSPA is much, much, MUCH better at PR than Blizzard is.
What's actually going on, I have no idea.
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote: Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
Man, I really thought Koreans were smarter than this. They really shot themselves in the foot with this one.
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Even though I don't like Kespa, I loathe Blizzard. Kespa it is.
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That's better than mexican novels.
But seriously. We know 10% of really what's going on behind the tables, and in the end, there is no right or wrong. It's just a bunch of guys fighting for money.
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On May 31 2010 21:42 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:32 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them? Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart. On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote: I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless. Nice contribution. Suck my balls. Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself. If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first. Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves. You are so stupid it hurts. You're digging yourself a hole and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
You are so stupid it hurts. You're making yourself look retarded and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
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I think we can all agree that all we really want is for proleague and other korean tourneys to continue. I think blizzard owes korea (and us) at least that.
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On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh. - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you. - oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say.
/Thread
they hide behind the fans and esports growth when they have already proven to stand its way off not just sc but wc3 and wow to.
It just a sob story to get the general public on there side, fair enough you broadcast the game but to also go and sell it as your broadcasting rights is just so funny to hear. Ima go stream english premier league via skysports on the internet and charge people to watch it!
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i hate the fact that blizzard is doing everything in its power to destroy sc1 popularity because they are afraid sc2 is not better.
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--- While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
--- I will hate them FOREVER for this, i won't buy another activision blizzard game for ALL my life and i'll advice ALL my friends to doing so. There is still BW and there are other games... i'll go to EVE online. Cya wow.And yes... i'm not buying SC2... i don't wanna be blizzard bitch. I hope they'll fail hard on the game. And Bnet 2.0 to be EMPTY. I know it's almost impossible but i'd be sooo happy ... they deserve a lesson.
Blizzard BOYCOTT
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On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh. - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you.- oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say.
You're so hilarious.
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If this eventually does reach the point of severely harming e-sports, then this will be very bad news for teamliquid as well.
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Kespa is right, I'm disappointed, Blizzard is full of greedy bastards, that forgot that their games are nothing without fans and e-sport, and its only due to hard work and effort of Kespa and such, sc1 became such a wonderful game. I don't think SC2's "bunch of cool UNITS" is anywhere comparable to such a great GAME as SC1, this is another reason why I will support such as Kespa.
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- KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports.
This is such fucking bullshit. Blizzard did far more than any other gaming company did to support esports. Quite honestly, before WoW's success it would be unthinkable for a gaming company to drive their own competitive scene. Blizzard put huge bucks down for the GOM event and KeSPA did everything in its power to squash it. Even before then you had Blizzcon and the Blizzard WWI. Blizzard has done NOTHING to stunt the growth of esports. The way they have to deal with KeSPA for SC2 is regrettable because we all love OSL/MSL and the proleague, it is still a necessity.
In my own opinion this is all glorious. Pay the piper KeSPA, you've been getting free tunes for way too long.
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its not unthinkable at all what blizzard did with gom, if blizzard had done something like it mb 5 years back then it would have been supporting esports. the whole gom experiment was blizzard wanting a piece of the esports cash cow years after it had been established in korea and was proving to be a successful franchise.
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As much as I hate KeSPA I have to agree with them, but don't dare say "we're doing it for the fans." That's only a half-truth.
It's obvious Blizzard wants full control of e-Sports and honestly they don't know what they're getting themselves into. I don't see KeSPA complying and stopping operations after August. If this does go to court, I don't see how Blizzard can win. However, KeSPA have violated the NDA based off negligence. They'll be held responsible for that.
You guys create the product. How we use the product is another story.
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i literally have no idea what to think now...
I mean... all of you guys in here make good points, kespa are kind of asshole-ish, cowardly, go behind the back of fans-ish, but then again, it really sounds like Blizzard made some ridiculous demands.
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On May 31 2010 21:54 alkampfer wrote: --- While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
--- I will hate them FOREVER for this, i won't buy another activision blizzard game for ALL my life and i'll advice ALL my friends to doing so. There is still BW and there are other games... i'll go to EVE online. Cya wow.And yes... i'm not buying SC2... i don't wanna be blizzard bitch. I hope they'll fail hard on the game. And Bnet 2.0 to be EMPTY. I know it's almost impossible but i'd be sooo happy ... they deserve a lesson.
Blizzard BOYCOTT
when will people understand that blizzard is a company. A company's primary goal is to make money. shocking isn't it? Do you really think everyone at blizzard is just a game loving nerd that wants to please the fans? Think again.
And do you really believe Kespa is just there for the fans? I guess that's half way true. At least fans that get them money. As soons as the fans are GOM fans they don't count anymore. Please, Kespa is out for the cash as much as blizzard is, and you know what, there's nothing wrong with that.
One way or another e-sports wont die out. The pros wont get worse, and the fans will still be fans. If there's a market to organize tournies and see pros play then nothing will happen. If there is no market, then it WILL die out. Simple supply/demand.
And afaik (someone confirm please?) when you accept blizzards terms and conditions, you accept that everything created with their product belongs to them. Replays maps etc.
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On May 31 2010 22:17 heishe wrote: i literally have no idea what to think now...
It's pretty much impossible to, as of now it is simply a he said she said contest. I'm just giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt because they don't have nearly as many dings on their history file.
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On May 31 2010 22:17 heishe wrote: i literally have no idea what to think now...
I mean... all of you guys in here make good points, kespa are kind of asshole-ish, cowardly, go behind the back of fans-ish, but then again, it really sounds like Blizzard made some ridiculous demands. Well, demands are only ridiculous if there is no one willing to accept them. Since Gom did, then clearly Blizzard wasn't too unreasonable.
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Another thing - if Blizzard wanted SC2 to be broadcast on television in South Korea, I think this was entirely the wrong move. Gretech itself doesn't own any channels, just their online broadcast platform, which still has marginal reach compared to actual television channels. And I doubt OGN and MBC will be enthusiastic about broadcasting SC2 on their channels after all that has transpired. I also don't think it's likely that any other companies with television channels will step up, either, as they all lack the specific expertise for broadcasting competitive gaming as well incentive, after seeing many other games fail to succeed on the level of BW.
On May 31 2010 22:22 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:17 heishe wrote: i literally have no idea what to think now...
I mean... all of you guys in here make good points, kespa are kind of asshole-ish, cowardly, go behind the back of fans-ish, but then again, it really sounds like Blizzard made some ridiculous demands. Well, demands are only ridiculous if there is no one willing to accept them. Since Gom did, then clearly Blizzard wasn't too unreasonable. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the demands Blizzard made of Gretech are different from the ones they made of Kespa.
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On May 31 2010 22:19 keV. wrote: It's pretty much impossible to, as of now it is simply a he said she said contest. I'm just giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt because they don't have nearly as many dings on their history file. You might want to read this article before you give "Blizzard" that benefit. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128252
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GOM really didn't have a choice man. It was take it or leave it and considering it's an exclusive contract how could they say no?
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On May 31 2010 22:22 ymirheim wrote: Well, demands are only ridiculous if there is no one willing to accept them. Since Gom did, then clearly Blizzard wasn't too unreasonable. the terms for GOM is not the same terms for KeSPA. at least not in practical terms.
GOM did not run esports (ie paid players), they ran ad-hoc tournaments (ie you win, u get money, or else 0)
asking GOM to pay... say 10% gross revenue as royalty is not the same as asking KeSPA/MBC/OGN for 10%.
basically with GOM (but without KeSPA), we are back to the pre-boxer days of SC.
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On May 31 2010 22:04 keV. wrote: Blizzard put huge bucks down for the GOM event and KeSPA did everything in its power to squash it. Pringles or any other starleague sponsor has supported esports about as much as Blizzard has. Supporting tourneys is enough for an amateur scene but in terms of the professionals blizzard has done next to nothing. Gom was putting too much of a burden on player schedules with 3 leagues and proleague all running so something had to go and web television was the clear 3rd.
On May 31 2010 22:04 keV. wrote: Blizzard has done NOTHING to stunt the growth of esports. Until now.
On May 31 2010 22:04 keV. wrote: The way they have to deal with KeSPA for SC2 is regrettable because we all love OSL/MSL and the proleague, it is still a necessity. Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
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It seems to me SC2 is like a soccer ball. A soccer ball company has no control over soccer broadcasting. All the compensation blizzard should get is the cost of the ball(sc2). I mean blizzard should understand how much free publicity and sales they get from the promotion done by kespa. Sc2 is just the equipment players use to play the sport. If Blizzard wants to set up their own league they should go for it. However, they don't have the right to enforce monopolies.
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On May 31 2010 22:23 Zona wrote:Another thing - if Blizzard wanted SC2 to be broadcast on television in South Korea, I think this was entirely the wrong move. Gretech itself doesn't own any channels, just their online broadcast platform, which still has marginal reach compared to actual television channels. And I doubt OGN and MBC will be enthusiastic about broadcasting SC2 on their channels after all that has transpired. I also don't think it's likely that any other companies with television channels will step up, either, as they all lack the specific expertise for broadcasting competitive gaming as well incentive, after seeing many other games fail to succeed on the level of BW. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:22 ymirheim wrote:On May 31 2010 22:17 heishe wrote: i literally have no idea what to think now...
I mean... all of you guys in here make good points, kespa are kind of asshole-ish, cowardly, go behind the back of fans-ish, but then again, it really sounds like Blizzard made some ridiculous demands. Well, demands are only ridiculous if there is no one willing to accept them. Since Gom did, then clearly Blizzard wasn't too unreasonable. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the demands Blizzard made of Gretech are different from the ones they made of Kespa. I think that is highly unlikely, this is what a lot of people wish were the case because it will play into the theory that blizzard is out to get KeSPA rather than just wanting to secure profits and creative control. It is not very profitable for big companies to hold grudges though or go out of their way to get revenge at someone. If Blizzard made certain non negotiable demands on KeSPA those same demands would go for anyone else wanting the broadcasting rights.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh. - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you.- oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say.
You know it's people like you who completely make me regret bothering to stay until 4 AM translating this shit, people who's just willing to stay up and wake up and make ignorant, bullshit comments and not read anything else.
Holy shit. Get rid of your fucking biases and read or something, cause honestly it's people like you who put in a terrible taste in my mouth and make me think twice how worthwhile it was.
So yeah, no thank you for actually reading what I translated. Actually, I probably don't even need to translate for idiots like you because you probably will have an opinion no matter what and not afraid to speak regardless of the facts.
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There are such glaring inconsistencies in the stories on both sides. Both sides are clearly lying to us. We won't ever know what really happened behind the scenes.
I wonder if it would be true that negotiating with Kespa would limit Gom's future. Kespa is the key to stability while Gom is the key to growth. There needs to be a happy ending to all of this because the amount of bad press coming out now is beginning to be too much for Starcraft to bear. If this drags on, the losers will be us.
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Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn..
2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw.
3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually
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Blizzard has jumped the shark.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually
Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues.
B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else.
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On May 31 2010 22:38 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote:On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh. - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you.- oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say. You know it's people like you who completely make me regret bothering to stay until 4 AM translating this shit, people who's just willing to stay up and wake up and make ignorant, bullshit comments and not read anything else. Holy shit. Get rid of your fucking biases and read or something, cause honestly it's people like you who put in a terrible taste in my mouth and make me think twice how worthwhile it was. So yeah, no thank you for actually reading what I translated. Actually, I probably don't even need to translate for idiots like you because you probably will have an opinion no matter what and not afraid to speak regardless of the facts.
So if people voice opinions that are opposite of what you believe in, then that is considered offensive to you? Stop being childish. He makes very good points in his post, and you reply with complete ass-whine. Try arguing against his point instead of ass-whining.
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mustache,
1. that is how sports work. the pay scale is rigged. there are "B Teamers" in other sports too, we call them bench-warmers.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 22:53 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:38 Milkis wrote:On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote:On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh. - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you.- oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say. You know it's people like you who completely make me regret bothering to stay until 4 AM translating this shit, people who's just willing to stay up and wake up and make ignorant, bullshit comments and not read anything else. Holy shit. Get rid of your fucking biases and read or something, cause honestly it's people like you who put in a terrible taste in my mouth and make me think twice how worthwhile it was. So yeah, no thank you for actually reading what I translated. Actually, I probably don't even need to translate for idiots like you because you probably will have an opinion no matter what and not afraid to speak regardless of the facts. So if people voice opinions that are opposite of what you believe in, then that is considered offensive to you? Stop being childish. He makes very good points in his post, and you reply with complete ass-whine. Try arguing against his point instead of ass-whining.
Opposite? Nothing to do with that. The point is it's clear he didn't even bother spending time reading everything I translated and just jumped to some minor points with retarded assumptions.
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The name calling in this thread isn't really helping anyone, neither is placing blame 100% on either side.
I would like to see some clarification on what exactly is a communal property. KeSPA seems to like comparing progaming to soccer, but soccer's rules are essentially public domain and can't be compared to a commercial video game. They say ESPORTS can't succeed if it's done for profit but they are essentially doing it for the profit of their partners. The Korean progaming industry is huddled too tightly together under this name, which is misleading. Korean e-Sports Players Association represents pretty much everyone but the players themselves. It seems that KeSPA cannot demonstrate that it got proper permission from Blizzard to broadcast BW. They seem unwilling to do anything to change the current state except to pay royalties. Also they might be exaggerating the benefit Blizzard has received from esports in Korea.
Blizzard is coming into the mess late, and seems to be asking a lot for such a later comer. Their terms might include uncomfortable terms for the industry, such as requiring SC2 leagues to be run if BW leagues are to continue. They might ask for control over sponsors and reject ones that they see as their competitors like Avalon, Lost Saga or Batoo. Unlike some KeSPA members like OnGameNet and MBCGame, they aren't risking a significant portion of their business in this venture. Blizzard had a chance earlier to approach KeSPA and strike a deal on only BW rights, but might intentionally have delayed until SC2 was launching to get better leverage in the negotiations. Now Blizz has pretty much retreated from the whole deal and left GomTV to negotiate.
Interestingly enough the Q&A session was much more interesting than the KeSPA release itself.
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On May 31 2010 22:34 Scarecrow wrote: Pringles or any other starleague sponsor has supported esports about as much as Blizzard has. Supporting tourneys is enough for an amateur scene but in terms of the professionals blizzard has done next to nothing. Gom was putting too much of a burden on player schedules with 3 leagues and proleague all running so something had to go and web television was the clear 3rd.
To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene. Like I said, as long as sponsors can turn a buck, Pringles, and others will be glad to make an investment, KeSPA isn't the reason sponsors turn profit. To say that they are the only ones who could make this model work is just stupid. Secondly, too much of a burden for 80000 USD? Give me a break. That is twice what they pay OSL winners.
Until now.
You can verify KeSPA control over esports is better than Blizzard/GOM can you? I don't think you can.
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers.
Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams.
Blizzard didn't have the time or the money in 1998 to "invest" into the Korean scene. No game company has that kind of control. Now they are actually in position to. I think they want to make a much more long-term and larger buck actually. KeSPA promotes itself amd it's sponsors, no on else. They have NO interest in what is best for the players. (You know, the ONLY reason eSports even exists). You people should really stop calling them pro-teams and start calling them Samsung and KT and MBC. That's what they are.
It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
Well Australians are fucking stupid. I'll be laughing while you read this amazing Ad hominem attack this thread has been so fond of.
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After all the shit shat KeSPA has pulled over the years, I just can't find it in myself to trust them.
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I would have no issues with Blizzard grabbing for control over eSports if they showed any sign of being competent dictators.
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Considering Blizzards recent behaviour with regards to region locking, who do we trust more at this point?
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On May 31 2010 16:19 Scarecrow wrote: I cannot believe the number of people on TL siding with blizzard trying to secure further SC2 sales through the destruction of pro-BW. It will likely be another wc3, there will be no professional league and esports will go back to the dark ages if Blizzard has it's way. Kotick is just looking to exploit the scene in the short term to sell a bunch of expansions. It would be so great to have another wc3 in its prime! You just don't know shit. It had it all except maybe long term TV broadcasting, but that was due to demand(well few tried that in Germany, but it failed and sc2 will do so again if they try). And Blizzard of course. Concerning entertainment for the fans it was way better than broodwar for atleast 2 years. Much more and more diverse tournaments/leagues, an international scene bw can still only dream of, I just can't think of anything it lacked in its prime compared to broodwar, except ugly silver jackets maybe. They do not add any fun for me, though. wc3 did so good...
Too good for Blizzard. When wc3 really flourished sc2 was announced(coincidence lol) and wc3 was crippled on purpose by patches. Not patching obvious flaws like the blademaster but adding patches that just make old replays unwatchable(added new banner system FU blizz). They did everything to make the game less enjoyable, they wanted to because wc3 had to die in order to make way for sc2. It's not that the wc3 scene was too bad or not professional enough, it was too good to continue.
Blizz learned from their bw-mistake. They just did not repeat it with wc3, that's all.
And they will repeat the same they did to wc3, as soon as their next rts is in the making, and sc2 has to make way.
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At first I was going to say that the KespA people should be in politics, because of the skill they have in dodging the meaning of questions and twisting truth to their benefit. And... then I remembered that KespA is a government association..
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Its amazing how many people posting in here without reading anything at all. I don't understand how anyone can side with blizzard in this and still pretend to be an esports fan. I don't give a shit about SC2 at this point. Blizzard/GOM can do whatever the hell they want with it, but if they end up killing SC:BW with this I'll never forgive them.
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
Regarding Intellectual Property Rights
Q: Blizzard claims that game usage in leagues is not a communal right but something under intellectual property. What do you think about this?
- While the game is owned by the company, the game is different from eSports. eSports only has game as the subject matter, it does not evolve around just the players but as a spectator sport, and thus a culture that needs many workers and their efforts and skills. It was already recognized in China as an official sport, and last year in the Asians games it was recognized as an official sport, and so it is something that is evolving as a sport globally - Sports is not just for/owned by the "Manias" (T/N: Fans really involved in it. Think "Otaku") or special organizations. It has a communal property where normal spectators can watch and be involved in. - If eSports is not a communal property and belongs to an international company called Blizzard, then the entire eSports industry in Korea and the existance of KeSPA becomes wrong from the beginning. All recognition and gains as a culture and sponsorship from Airforce etc disappears. - Sports needs to guarantee Public Viewing, and so it has a communal property. eSports cannot just be approached simply as Blizzard's promotion logic. - There are many examples such as the CGS event that shows that no matter how much you invest in, if it's done for personal gain then you cannot suceed
%%CGS Event: Refers to Championship Gaming Series created by Direct TV where they hired many players , but upon discovering that it was not profitable, dropped support and many players were left unpaid.
Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests. - Without considering IP rights, Blizzard has been one of the greatest benefactors from growth of Korean eSports. Through Korean eSports, Starcraft 1 sales went up considerably and the product life cycle lengthened, along with other many benefits. The game leagues operated by KeSPA uses official products. - Even with all this, KeSPA has announced from the early days of negotiations that we wish to recognize the rights of Blizzard due to Starcraft and has made it clear that they would pay a modest game usage fee to Blizzard.
Q: To KeSPA, where are the boundaries of IP rights? - IP rights are there as the basic rights of Game Creation companies. - But Blizzard demands that organizations get permission for contract time needed for a safe operation of eSports, Sponsor and Marketing plans, Broadcasting plans, and royalties from broadcasting and sponsorships which is beyond game usage fees, and sub license fees. - KeSPA believes that this is an unjust interference with operations, and also an unbeneficial negotiation setting as this goes beyond the scope of IP rights, and can see it as a poisonous article that shrinks the investment by corporations. - While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
Hey, thanks for the translation of this whole thing. Must've taken quite a while.
Fuck, reading about this shit keeps making me raged and raged. I don't usually side with KeSPA but Blizzard is going way out of line here. The fuck are they doing?
Some people are saying, "It's okay! Blizzard made their game. Now they want "rights" to the game and monitor tournaments! Surely they can do that!"
That's such naivete. Blizzard is merely a company that made the game. They will get the profit from the people buying the game and perhaps from expansions. But for Blizzard to take over the eSports scene makes them something greater than a game company, a status that they don't deserve.
It was KeSPA that made Starcraft as a professional sport, not Blizzard. It was the Korean culture that made Starcraft as a professional sport, not Blizzard.
Blizzard, you made one hell of a game. No one will argue with that. But you stay the fuck away from being the facillitators of making the game a part of eSports.
Does Bungie Studios try to "demand that organizations get permission for contract time needed for a safe operation of eSports, Sponsor and Marketing plans, Broadcasting plans, and royalties from broadcasting and sponsorships which is beyond game usage fees, and sub license fees." for people playing Halo in tournaments?
No. And neither should you, fucking Blizzard. The Professionalism of Starcraft and Starcraft 2 will die under your mediation.
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On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene.
Lol. If it is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene, then they do not need control of it. End of story. You seem to have misconceptions on what KeSPA is; it's the conglomerate of ALL the corporate sponsors. If a company like Pringles would like to start investing in the progaming scene beyond a tournament, it's going to join KeSPA. The only reason KeSPA is the exclusive association managing the pro-scene is because the market impact of the pro-scene is so small. If there was more interest, more companies would begin sponsoring teams and more associations will emerge. Simple supply and demand.
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On May 31 2010 23:12 KorvspaD wrote: Its amazing how many people posting in here without reading anything at all. I don't understand how anyone can side with blizzard in this and still pretend to be an esports fan. I don't give a shit about SC2 at this point. Blizzard/GOM can do whatever the hell they want with it, but if they end up killing SC:BW with this I'll never forgive them.
sign me in
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KeSPA is not hiding behind the fans, I think when it comes down to it they are in the right. At this point, in Korea I don't believe Blizzard should receive compensation for the use of their game if they are going to control the scene and who does what. It's ridiculous.
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On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Yeah, Blizzard has done a great job making money for itself and promoting the growth of ESPORTS. Oh wait...
Have you not read the Blizzard interviews? Pretty much every answer somehow references them caring for the fans and promoting ESPORTS. The "hiding" you are talking about it called PR, every company does it.
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On May 31 2010 23:12 KorvspaD wrote: Its amazing how many people posting in here without reading anything at all. I don't understand how anyone can side with blizzard in this and still pretend to be an esports fan. I don't give a shit about SC2 at this point. Blizzard/GOM can do whatever the hell they want with it, but if they end up killing SC:BW with this I'll never forgive them.
this is exactly what i said in the irc channel. i have no idea how anyone can side with blizzard after reading this.
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On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: Well Australians are fucking stupid.
I only mentioned that i have distaste for how you and some of your compatriots seem to bask in short-sighted corporate greed like it's a virtue. If you're just going to result to insults backed up by blind ignorance and sophistry than I'll leave you to it. The company/pro-team thing was funny though, we should really start calling Federer Nike.
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I'm so sick of KeSPA calling on the fans, all they're trying to do is pretend that they're appealing purely to the masses and attempting to get anybody on their side. They screwed up, now they have to deal with the company they killed, and I hope GOM handles it with great vengeance and furious anger.
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On May 31 2010 23:14 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene.
Lol. If it is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene, then they do not need control of it. End of story. You seem to have misconceptions on what KeSPA is; it's the conglomerate of ALL the corporate sponsors. If a company like Pringles would like to start investing in the progaming scene beyond a tournament, it's going to join KeSPA. The only reason KeSPA is the exclusive association managing the pro-scene is because the market impact of the pro-scene is so small. If there was more interest, more companies would begin sponsoring teams and more associations will emerge. Simple supply and demand.
Blizzard just sold broadcast rights to GOM. They won't be handling anything. I understand what KeSPA is, what people don't seem to understand is how much control their position offers. I find it odd people are still making these kind of points when the Blizzard/GOM tournament was spat on by KeSPA just recently. The issue is the indirect control KeSPA wields over the pro-teams and broadcasting.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
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The grace period is too short. It should at least be a year. Brood War will die this august and the rest of the scene with it I'm afraid. For anyone thinking esports will be big in the USA/EU now, your naive. The social stigma on games is far greater here than in Asia. Also it took 10 years to grow SC in Korea only.
I agree with KESPA here on principal. Blizzard has no IP rights on broadcasting/streaming/videos of it's games imho. They own the game and sell it, and that should be it. Greedy is all you can say.
Blizzard is killing korean esports, that's how it is. And along with it any hope of expansion.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote: Will this reach the Korean courts? No doubt. And I think it's probable that the courts will side with KeSPA. They already have in the past: "[The] Korean government's response on a copyright infringement claim in Blizzard vs. Kespa case was plain simple: as Kespa is the official Korean e-sports coordinator, a ruling body similar to European auto sport FIA, all the decisions must go through them, and just like that we are at a stalemate." http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10265-blizzard-vs-kespa-the-ultimate-fight
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I'm happy that there is BW Proleage, I'm content that there is Kespa and people who make it real, else we would never have known all the beauty of this game, and for this I will always be grateful to anyone from Korea, who somehow was involved in it. The idea that Blizzard will try to make anything like that sounds amusing to say the less, do u believe they will invest in creating some non-korean proleage? With SC2 just another era of amateurish tounaments will emerge to the scene flooding us with its phony level of entertainment and skill.
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions.
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On May 31 2010 23:18 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Yeah, Blizzard has done a great job making money for itself and promoting the growth of ESPORTS. Oh wait... Have you not read the Blizzard interviews? Pretty much every answer somehow references them caring for the fans and promoting ESPORTS. The "hiding" you are talking about it called PR, every company does it.
I don't have a defense for that. Conceded.
On May 31 2010 23:19 Scarecrow wrote:I only mentioned that i have distaste for how you and some of your compatriots seem to bask in short-sighted corporate greed like it's a virtue. If you're just going to result to insults backed up by blind ignorance and sophistry than I'll leave you to it. The company/pro-team thing was funny though, we should really start calling Federer Nike.
So you were insulting me because I'm American, I understand. That is what I said. I was just thinking about how you and some of your Australian brethren have a knack for saying retarded things.
I still am amazed people can be OK with the way KeSPA treats players. I really am.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions.
In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths.
They were unemployed. They chose to work for those conditions. They made the choice. Are we to stop people from gambling? Because that's what B teamers are actually doing.
Almost slavery? Way to completely and utterly undermine actual slavery.
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On May 31 2010 22:52 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues. B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else.
Minor league ball players make roughly 15k a year and they don't have to live as slaves. Hell you can do it part time.
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On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths.
You do know that most of them have given up their school for their careers? They won't find anything good for working. Especially when Kespa and Korean BW scene dies.
Wtf, how can you call unemployment better. That's something only an European can say.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:52 Milkis wrote:On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues. B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else. Minor league ball players make roughly 15k a year and they don't have to live as slaves. Hell you can do it part time.
At most, 1100 a month. In the United States.
Notice how 1) Baseball has a much bigger audience, 2) US has twice the PCI of Korea, 3) B teamers are paid living expenses.
It works out to be about the same either way. They're all gambling.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. They were unemployed. They chose to work for those conditions. They made the choice. Are we to stop people from gambling? Because that's what B teamers are actually doing. Almost slavery? Way to completely and utterly undermine actual slavery.
No they were young teenage kids chasing a dream without knowing where they would end up and what the consequences would be... naive 12-13 year old boys. Read the recent articles about the progamers conditions coming from the Korean Community.
Slavery is just a term, perhaps not rightfully used, im sorry if anyone is offended.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:31 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. You do know that most of them have given up their school for their careers? They won't find anything good for working. Especially when Kespa and Korean BW scene dies. Wtf, how can you call unemployment better. That's something only an European can say.
It's better for them to end up in this situation now, then when they are 25-26 years old and still haven't achieved anything. Most of them won't. On top of that, most players are still very young and they do have parents.... you overdramatize things.
Also : I said that Blizzard will do things better if they do win this pending lawsuit. I think the situation for the players will improve. Unemployment would definately be the worst case scenario. Noone knows what's going to happen.
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5003 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:32 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:31 Milkis wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. They were unemployed. They chose to work for those conditions. They made the choice. Are we to stop people from gambling? Because that's what B teamers are actually doing. Almost slavery? Way to completely and utterly undermine actual slavery. No they were young teenage kids chasing a dream without knowing where they would end up and what the consequences would be... naive 12-13 year old boys. Read the recent articles about the progamers conditions coming from the Korean Community. Slavery is just a term, perhaps not rightfully used, im sorry you were offended.
It is true that they are young teenage kids and they are making decisions. However, they're free to quit at any point.
The recent article is nothing but yellow journalism to me -- they simply show the consequences of their choices and how "bad" they are (despite conditions consistently improving) without making any mentions towards why the things are that way or the decisions they had made. In korea they're not even going to care about that, the only reason why it's such a big deal is because everyone is looking at it with some idealistic American/European viewpoint.
To be honestly, I think their conditions are fine. In fact, I can see a lot of people paying for that right to live like that to "learn" from progame teams, and one way of paying is just going without salary.
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On May 31 2010 23:22 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:14 buhhy wrote:On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene.
Lol. If it is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene, then they do not need control of it. End of story. You seem to have misconceptions on what KeSPA is; it's the conglomerate of ALL the corporate sponsors. If a company like Pringles would like to start investing in the progaming scene beyond a tournament, it's going to join KeSPA. The only reason KeSPA is the exclusive association managing the pro-scene is because the market impact of the pro-scene is so small. If there was more interest, more companies would begin sponsoring teams and more associations will emerge. Simple supply and demand. Blizzard just sold broadcast rights to GOM. They won't be handling anything. I understand what KeSPA is, what people don't seem to understand is how much control their position offers. I find it odd people are still making these kind of points when the Blizzard/GOM tournament was spat on by KeSPA just recently. The issue is the indirect control KeSPA wields over the pro-teams and broadcasting.
I am sorry, but the way you always try to mention "control" of Kespa over some enslaved ones, makes me feel like all americans(sorry for this) got an issue about a "control" thing, I start to receive strange flashbacks of your country recent achievements in rescuing the enslaved from the total control of the bad people.
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. ret,
wasnt there an article earlier about boxer account of esport development?
he recall early day gamers had to go find their own sponsors etc. sure the b team is miserable right now, but without KeSPA/MBC/OGN, there wont be a B Team.
boxer also predicted that further growth of esport require significant capital investment and government incentives would be required. i m sure as hell no one is stupid enuf to pour capital into a product they clearly do not own in the end. the government especially hates foreign ownership.
GOM clearly do not have the resources to develop esports.
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On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches.
"Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA...
The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda.
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On May 31 2010 23:38 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:22 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:14 buhhy wrote:On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: To your first point, It is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene AND make the games. My only point was that KeSPA should not be the EXCLUSIVE association that is handling an entire pro-scene.
Lol. If it is not their responsibility to handle a professional scene, then they do not need control of it. End of story. You seem to have misconceptions on what KeSPA is; it's the conglomerate of ALL the corporate sponsors. If a company like Pringles would like to start investing in the progaming scene beyond a tournament, it's going to join KeSPA. The only reason KeSPA is the exclusive association managing the pro-scene is because the market impact of the pro-scene is so small. If there was more interest, more companies would begin sponsoring teams and more associations will emerge. Simple supply and demand. Blizzard just sold broadcast rights to GOM. They won't be handling anything. I understand what KeSPA is, what people don't seem to understand is how much control their position offers. I find it odd people are still making these kind of points when the Blizzard/GOM tournament was spat on by KeSPA just recently. The issue is the indirect control KeSPA wields over the pro-teams and broadcasting. I am sorry, but the way you always try to mention "control" of Kespa over some enslaved ones, makes me feel like all americans(sorry for this) got an issue about a "control" thing, I start to receive strange flashbacks of your country recent achievements in rescuing the enslaved from the total control of the bad people.
Jesus Christ this post is horrible. You guys are fucking terrible at arguing. How many more people are going to come after me because I'm American.
Your English is horrible and your post is a waste of space. Talk about the issues or shove it.
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"I still am amazed people can be OK with the way KeSPA treats players. I really am"
Oh come on, are u serious?, this is their (players) job, do u know what job is?
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I was expecting something more interesting. It feels like KeSPA's response this time was rather weak. Lookin forward to GOM running Starleagues again.
Edit: GOM doesn't need KeSPA to get OGN and MBC on board, and I can't wait for the day people realize this.
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On May 31 2010 23:29 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:18 buhhy wrote:On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: Yes, KeSPA has done a great job making money for itself AND promoting the growth of eSports. You have no idea what happened in negotiations, so don't act like you do. Yes, Blizzard wants more control, they've made it clear. They are not the ones hiding behind "the growth of esports" and "the fans." KeSPA wields too much control and personal stake in eSports for them to grow uninhibited.
Yeah, Blizzard has done a great job making money for itself and promoting the growth of ESPORTS. Oh wait... Have you not read the Blizzard interviews? Pretty much every answer somehow references them caring for the fans and promoting ESPORTS. The "hiding" you are talking about it called PR, every company does it. I don't have a defense for that. Conceded. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:19 Scarecrow wrote:On May 31 2010 22:59 keV. wrote: Well Australians are fucking stupid.
I only mentioned that i have distaste for how you and some of your compatriots seem to bask in short-sighted corporate greed like it's a virtue. If you're just going to result to insults backed up by blind ignorance and sophistry than I'll leave you to it. The company/pro-team thing was funny though, we should really start calling Federer Nike. So you were insulting me because I'm American, I understand. That is what I said. I was just thinking about how you and some of your Australian brethren have a knack for saying retarded things. I still am amazed people can be OK with the way KeSPA treats players. I really am.
maybe, you are just slow
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On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda.
You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread.
At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool.
You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year.
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On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year.
Yeah and also when you are unemployed you DONT HAVE MONEY for food and a place to live. At least B-teamers have that.
You really think that with the current world economy in a huge crisis all those hundreds of people playing and working for SC:BW will find a job?
oov's parents couldnt even afford PC BANG FEES.
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On May 31 2010 12:47 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. It's too late. What is there to negotiate about? Blizzard already gave the broadcasting rights to GOM.
sweeeeeeeeet, I was sad when GOM stopped the GOM invitational.
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On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote: At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day.
Is that correct? Even in Western countries, it isn't that uncommon with unemployed youths who play games 12 hours a day...
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On May 31 2010 23:48 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year. Yeah and also when you are unemployed you DONT HAVE MONEY for food and a place to live. At least B-teamers have that.
I think the point was that living as a pro-gamer only prepares you for living as a pro-gamer. Would you rather have a month of a tight budget while you advance your lifestyle to something considerable? Or just stick to playing BW for 12 a day and when that doesn't work out have absolutely nothing to fall back on because you dropped out of school and haven't worked a real job your whole life.
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On May 31 2010 23:50 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote: At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day.
Is that correct? Even in Western countries, it isn't that uncommon with unemployed youths who play games 12 hours a day...
Touché
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On May 31 2010 23:51 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:48 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year. Yeah and also when you are unemployed you DONT HAVE MONEY for food and a place to live. At least B-teamers have that. I think the point was that living as a pro-gamer only prepares you for living as a pro-gamer. Would you rather have a month of a tight budget while you advance your lifestyle to something considerable? Or just stick to playing BW for 12 a day and when that doesn't work out have absolutely nothing to fall back on because you dropped out of school and haven't worked a real job your whole life.
You really think that with the current world economy in a huge crisis all those hundreds of people playing and working for SC:BW will find a job?
oov's parents couldnt even afford PC BANG FEES.
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On May 31 2010 23:50 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote: At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day.
Is that correct? Even in Western countries, it isn't that uncommon with unemployed youths who play games 12 hours a day...
There's a difference between playing 12 hours for fun and playing for 12 hours as training.
The physical and psychological stress is different.
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On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year.
Worst poster? Nah, I couldn't possibly take that title from you.
Secondly, I have been unemployed and it sucks as hell. Would I rather be practicing 12 hours a day and have limited social freedoms but have my food and lodging paid for me, yes. Cos unemployment sucks, I couldn't pay my own rent and my family nearly got evicted from our home.
Duh I know who ret is, which is why I said he uses the term slavery so liberally in describing the Korean pro-scene.
When all fails, attack a person for joining the website later than you, so classy.
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I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here. This is exactly where Blizzard will fail if it goes to court.
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On May 31 2010 23:51 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:48 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year. Yeah and also when you are unemployed you DONT HAVE MONEY for food and a place to live. At least B-teamers have that. I think the point was that living as a pro-gamer only prepares you for living as a pro-gamer. Would you rather have a month of a tight budget while you advance your lifestyle to something considerable? Or just stick to playing BW for 12 a day and when that doesn't work out have absolutely nothing to fall back on because you dropped out of school and haven't worked a real job your whole life.
Please keV advance YOUR life to something considerable, leave this thread
p.s I would like to see you telling these words to Boxer or Nada
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So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life
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我认为韩国电竞协会有点 “过”了 暴雪没有理由不想更好的推广自己的游戏 KeSPA只是想利益最大化
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On June 01 2010 00:01 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:51 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:48 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:46 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 23:42 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 23:29 ret wrote:On May 31 2010 23:28 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I think being unemployed is worse than the current conditions. In my opinion it is definately not. Current conditions equal slavery almost. Unemployment leaves room to chase different carreer paths. Which would be best for anyone outside of the top20 players ( 90% of them ), or anyone that doesnt rig matches. "Unemployment leaves room to chase different career paths"... HAHAHA... The fact that you can throw around the term "slavery" so liberally shows that 1) you have no understanding of what real slavery is 2) you are making vast generalizations based on your own biased agenda. You are honestly the worst poster in this whole thread. At least when you are unemployed you aren't practicing BW 12 hours a day. Slavery is in the dictionary, stop being so uptight. We have a black president, its cool. You know ret lived as a pro-gamer right? Probably not considering you joined this website this year. Yeah and also when you are unemployed you DONT HAVE MONEY for food and a place to live. At least B-teamers have that. I think the point was that living as a pro-gamer only prepares you for living as a pro-gamer. Would you rather have a month of a tight budget while you advance your lifestyle to something considerable? Or just stick to playing BW for 12 a day and when that doesn't work out have absolutely nothing to fall back on because you dropped out of school and haven't worked a real job your whole life. Please keV advance YOUR life to something considerable, leave this thread p.s I would like to see you telling these words to Boxer or Nada
i think even boxer said he wouldnt let his child try to become a progamer
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On May 31 2010 23:54 Adila wrote: There's a difference between playing 12 hours for fun and playing for 12 hours as training.
The physical and psychological stress is different. still, esport in korea is much more developed than the early boxer days.
the emperor himself said that only the top one or two players were able to get enuf sponsorship money to survive on gaming income. and they even had to find their sponsors themselves.
korean esport teams actually have a coach, salary contracts, merchandise etc. all of these would not have been possible without good business planning and capital investment by the TV networks.
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On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life
that question applies to every sport?
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Netherlands4511 Posts
boxer..nada...oov....
for every succesfull gamer who makes a lot of money there are 30 kids living in the gutter
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So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life So? we have the same youth here too. Even wasting their whole youth on some game like WoW, CS, wc3 or whatever without the chance of ever earning a nice salary ever. At least in korea you have the chance to "make" it.
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呵呵~ 不知道我发中文有人认识吗? 宣传一下: 中国的 最好的电竞平台 www.plu.cn 中国最 强大的游戏视频网站:www.wfbrood.com
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On June 01 2010 00:05 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life that question applies to every sport?
At least in the states we have high school and college before you are really considered as a pro-candidate (with minor exceptions). You get educated there and have access to scholarships. Nothing is at all like the Korean situation. Saying its the same thing is just plain not true.
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On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life the useful life of athletes is short, we know that. but this has no impact on whether blizz or kespa made the correct business decision.
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I think it's important we do not fall victim to KESPA "playing the victim". It is evident that this is the image they are looking to establish in this controversy. While it's is definitely possible for their statements to be 100% true, I am fairly confident they are not. Their statements DO make it sound like they did everything right... But I hope no one is really naive enough to believe all of it.
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On May 31 2010 23:44 letian wrote: "I still am amazed people can be OK with the way KeSPA treats players. I really am"
Oh come on, are u serious?, this is their (players) job, do u know what job is? Is it doing what you are told for 13 hours a day and getting paid in food, an uniform to wear and a place to live? It's not slavery though since they are free to leave. Only the conditions are similar.
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you guys really think blizzard gunna give better living conditions? the only thing they give a shit about is putting money in their pants. they didnt give any crap when sc was forming in 98 but they did in 07 with their "Intellectual Property" garbage and it doesnt make sense for them having sc2 in beta at this time of the year
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On June 01 2010 00:06 ret wrote: boxer..nada...oov....
for every succesfull gamer who makes a lot of money there are 30 kids living in the gutter
Oh my god, of course! Blame Kespa for poverty (wtf?)! Is your hate of the Korean progaming houses so big that you are blinded by anger?
You are acting like there would be less kids "living in the gutter" without Kespa. Thats ridiculous.
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On June 01 2010 00:06 sunsun126 wrote:呵呵~ 不知道我发中文有人认识吗? 宣传一下: 中国的 最好的电竞平台 www.plu.cn 中国最 强大的游戏视频网站:www.wfbrood.com
别笑, 有人能看懂
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On June 01 2010 00:18 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:06 ret wrote: boxer..nada...oov....
for every succesfull gamer who makes a lot of money there are 30 kids living in the gutter Oh my god, of course! Blame Kespa for poverty (wtf?)! Is your hate of the Korean progaming houses so big that you are blinded by anger? You are acting like there would be less kids "living in the gutter" without Kespa. Thats ridiculous.
呵呵~~~~ 一切是非曲直 时间会证明一切
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On June 01 2010 00:18 letian wrote:别笑, 有人能看懂 chinese?
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On June 01 2010 00:18 letian wrote:别笑, 有人能看懂 白欧罗斯人?
这么强大!....
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You guys are right, negotiations between kespa and Blizzard are done, but this helps us decide if Blizzard is the type of company we actually want to maintain our esports title. I think Kespa made very valid accusations about Blizzard using IP rights in a esports situation. So valid in fact, that the more I think about it, the more I wonder if Blizzard's claim for IP would even hold up in a court of law.
Everyone in esports who plays the game, owns the game. We all have a valid license, so- where does the IP get infracted when we all play it together and host a tournament? How do tournaments suddenly fall under the control of Blizzard? It's a violation of our rights to fair use in my honest opinion, and I wonder if anyone on here is a student of law couldn't find our if it's a violation of fair use.
I'm sorry guys, but I don't think Blizzard's recent movements are good for esports, and I think Kespa hit the nail on the head in regards to Blizzard's motivation (turning esports into a promotional tool.) We all know it's probably from the coaching of Activision - but - in the end it is Blizzard's moral responsibility to act accordingly.
Blizzard's out to maximize profits, and we were all better off when Blizzard ignored the esports community. Sure, they have somewhat of a right to maximize profits, however- There are situations and areas that fall way beyond Blizzard's control and I would say that esports and tournament play is way outside of Blizzard's control.
If they wanted to place dominance in the esports community, all's they had to do was hire some guys at Kespa and throw "official" tournaments. Pushing questionable legal rights over how a community uses a game for it's devices only pushes their titles away from the esports community, as eventually we will all gravitate to a developer that supports the esports community without gouging our own rights to use the created media.
Charles
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On June 01 2010 00:18 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:06 ret wrote: boxer..nada...oov....
for every succesfull gamer who makes a lot of money there are 30 kids living in the gutter Oh my god, of course! Blame Kespa for poverty (wtf?)! Is your hate of the Korean progaming houses so big that you are blinded by anger? You are acting like there would be less kids "living in the gutter" without Kespa. Thats ridiculous.
I am not blaming KeSPa for povery at all. I am saying that I want them to treat their gamers better. and I think that Blizzard/GOM will.
Can you plz stop making weird assumptions..
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The lowest point Blizz fanboys could fall to was this B-Teamers argument. Like that is the reason KeSPA is bad and blizz/gomtv is gonna pay B-teamers 100 grand a year. Yeah, i loled. This is not about KeSPA not wanting to pay the players more. It's about the ratio between number of players and number of viewers in Korea. There should be a lot lot more viewers than players for players to be paid good. That's the case for most popular sports. It is not the case for progaming. Who do you think should pay the B-Teamers. In reality there are a lot of Blizz fanboys in this thread that it's unbelievable. Would you rather see the SCBW dead if that means that blizz will win this argument over KeSPA. Who cares about blizz and KeSPA and fucking IP rights. TL.net is not the place for blizz or KeSPA fanboys. It should be the place of professional gaming fanboys, the ones who care for the eSport in general, the players and the game. If you are not one of them then gtfo.
And a question for all you so called eSport fans, whould you rather see Blizz wining this argument with KeSPA even if that means the death of SCBW in Korea?
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Blizzard wants everything, and they claim do this "in the greater good of the esport community". With each passing day, Blizz is becoming more and more evil.
I can't believe GOM went along with this. Blizz is just using GOM as a puppet, at the end of the 3 years contract, GOM will be in the same position as Kespa today! Beside, what kind of company works with foreign powers to destroy/take-over something that your very own country took 10 years to build? All those sweat and blood! Traitors.
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On June 01 2010 00:18 letian wrote:别笑, 有人能看懂
删前留名
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On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote: I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice.
Exactly my view. Thx QibingZero.
On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer!
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To all those who were absolutely disgusted by the way Kespa treats progamers, you are indirectly supporting them by tuning in every OSL/MSL/PL games. Please show them that you really HATES them by not watching any more Korea pro SC matches.
If you can't stop, it's because you are just a hypocrite.
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"Oh boo hoo, those poor mistreated slaves having to practice Starcraft 12 hours a day!"
Give me a break. Pro SC is too much of a niche market and doesn't have the financial backing to offer all players equal benefits. Yes, only the best of the best players gain any sort of recognition for their efforts. Accordingly, competition is deathly fierce, and if you aren't willing to devote a large chunk of your time to practicing, you're going to fall behind. And we all know falling behind in the progaming world means you're soon to be out of a job.
Yes, the conditions are brutal. Yes, in an ideal world, every progamer would have an equal chance to make their way to the top and earn a decent living. And yes, if e-sports was a much more lucrative venture, the average wage for the average progamer would be higher and everyone could enjoy improved living conditions. But we don't live in an ideal world. Sure, it's what we wish e-sports could eventually become in the future, but what we have to keep in mind is that this is still a fledgling industry. It still has much to grow, and growth takes TIME.
Corporate interest (represented by Kespa) in e-sports is the best thing that ever happened to Starcraft. It's the reason why we have teams like SKT1 and KT and Khan with their own team houses duking it out in proleague. Without corporate interest, progaming is simply what it was 10 years ago; players residing with their parents hoping to earn their allowance through tournament winnings. As players like Kingdom and oov have pointed out, conditions for progamers are a lot better now than it was during their earlier days. You can't deny that there is definite progress being made.
If you have a well-structured argument backed up by facts or empirical evidence as to how e-sports could be run better, I'd love to hear it.
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On June 01 2010 00:28 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:18 SuperArc wrote:On June 01 2010 00:06 ret wrote: boxer..nada...oov....
for every succesfull gamer who makes a lot of money there are 30 kids living in the gutter Oh my god, of course! Blame Kespa for poverty (wtf?)! Is your hate of the Korean progaming houses so big that you are blinded by anger? You are acting like there would be less kids "living in the gutter" without Kespa. Thats ridiculous. I am not blaming KeSPa for povery at all. I am saying that I want them to treat their gamers better. and I think that Blizzard/GOM will. Can you plz stop making weird assumptions..
and I am saying Blizzard wont care one bit about the bw scene, let it die and hope sc2 becomes a good successor (which I doubt). This will be the loss of tons of working places.
Especially with the cross realm thing Blizzard proved that all they care about is money and the current BW scene is not profitable. Solution? Let it die.
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You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer!
Then why are there reports off some pros earning $200,000+ but on the other end they earn $10,000?
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Neither side makes any sense at all, blizzard doesnt say anything. And KeSPA seems to be saying "so you want to make money from stuff even we dont make money from?". uuh.. what? Blizzard says in other interviews that they want the community to run esports and that they want to support it so it can grow on its own. I think they realize that they've made huge profits of Esports in general and dont want more money from that.
If i try to make sense of it, its like this, Blizz says ok guys broadcast but dont sell the broadcast rights, thats what WE do, communicate with us and well set it up. And KeSPA didnt agree. thats blizz's beef and KeSPA are trying to confuse us into thinking that theyre being solicited of money they dont have, so that the fans will rise as one against blizzard.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. This is one of the only posts in this topic that are actually worth reading.
Not surprising since ret has been in the scene for 7+ years: he's actually lived through the history of progaming that 99% of the posters here have only read about (at best).
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On June 01 2010 00:49 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. This is one of the only posts in this topic that are actually worth reading. Not surprising since ret has been in the scene for 7+ years: he's actually lived through the history of progaming that 99% of the posters here have only read about (at best).
With all that said people still try to tell him he has no idea what he's talking about and they themselves have a better insight, just cause he's reply isn't all kespa are the best and treat people fairly! Dream world crap
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On June 01 2010 00:49 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. This is one of the only posts in this topic that are actually worth reading. Not surprising since ret has been in the scene for 7+ years: he's actually lived through the history of progaming that 99% of the posters here have only read about (at best).
He also has no knowledge of Korean (Asian) society, working conditions there and pretty much clueless about anything outside Europe.
K-pop artists get treated as badly or even worse as B-teamers in Korea. It is normal there. Is it right? Hell no. Is Blizzard going to change it? Hahaha, dont make me laugh.
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On June 01 2010 00:27 stellarvector wrote: You guys are right, negotiations between kespa and Blizzard are done, but this helps us decide if Blizzard is the type of company we actually want to maintain our esports title. I think Kespa made very valid accusations about Blizzard using IP rights in a esports situation. So valid in fact, that the more I think about it, the more I wonder if Blizzard's claim for IP would even hold up in a court of law.
Everyone in esports who plays the game, owns the game. We all have a valid license, so- where does the IP get infracted when we all play it together and host a tournament? How do tournaments suddenly fall under the control of Blizzard? It's a violation of our rights to fair use in my honest opinion, and I wonder if anyone on here is a student of law couldn't find our if it's a violation of fair use. Charles i m not a law student but took a course on law and much of it was contract. the EULA set alot of limits to use of the software and blizz is not totally groundless in their IP claims.
Blizz owns IP right on all character drawings we see in game. When the games are broadcasted, a large amount of that drawing is being reproduced to a very large audience. This is sufficient to violate the fair use rule because reproduction of the game, in part or in full violates most software EULA's.
Fair use would protect situations like if MBC give a review of the game and show a "reasonable length" footage of game play or cut scenes.
However, Blizz normally does not have ownership of the video, since the MBC studio decoration, the audio commentary, the player's game play etc, constitute original work created by those involved. So if the matter goes to court, all parties will have partial title to the video. So no party alone would be able to broadcast it without getting sued.
Currently, Blizz demands that KeSPA/MBC/OGN/Players give up IP rights over any content created where their work (SC or BW) has been used in any capacity. This way, Blizz will have full title to sell their broadcasting rights to any party they want.
While outrageous, this is legally possible, so long as KeSPA/MBC/OGN/Players sign the contract.
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I hope kespa just backs down and gets on other deserving games and makes them popular.. Get Flash and Jaedong on quake live, I would watch them play any game.. I and many others wouldnt give a shit about starcraft if it wasnt for Korean progaming.. It would be just another old dead game.. I hope blizzard fails.. sc2 is not as fun to watch as sc1..
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On May 31 2010 22:52 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:43 mustache wrote:
Why is it a necessity? The Korean scene has been amazing in the promotion of SC1 and SC2 would be the same. Kespa is willing to pay royalties whilst Blizzard spouts clandestine demands for total control far beyond their rights as game designers and their abilities as esport organisers. Blizzard's investment in the Korean scene has been a joke and now they want it all just to make a quick buck. KespA re-invests profits in the scene and functions purely as an advertiser for blizzard and the company's that comprise the pro-teams. It sickens me that Americans like yourself see this greedy, short term power play as glorious. I'll be laughing when Activision-Blizzard shits all over its remaining naive fanboys for the $$$.
1) Stop living in your make believe world. Kespa is around to make money. How is paying B-Teamers no money "re-investing" it into the pro scene? Sounds like they invest in players that earn them money in turn.. 2)Being american has nothing to do with it. Take your strawman arguments elsewhere. Plus Blizz is owned by Vivendi. At least 54%. They're french btw. 3) If blizz shits on its fans it shits on itself. No fans, no money, no blizzard. you'll learn this in school eventually Can you people stop talking about B Teamers and pretend that that is a valid point? Not even minor leaguers in baseball/other sports have well paid minor leagues. B Leaguers are there because they want a chance to be an A teamer. Nothing else.
Precisely. They are there because they choose to be there. Yes, they're young and focus on the present instead of looking to the future. Which is fine as long as they're content with it. This has been said many times ;/
On June 01 2010 00:44 mmdmmd wrote: To all those who were absolutely disgusted by the way Kespa treats progamers, you are indirectly supporting them by tuning in every OSL/MSL/PL games. Please show them that you really HATES them by not watching any more Korea pro SC matches.
If you can't stop, it's because you are just a hypocrite.
Although KeSPA has made some pretty stupid mistakes we would be stuck in the stone age. Everything they worked towards would be lost. I for one am not disgusted how they treat players. Like I just said the players choose to be there. It is their choice. They get the basic necessities and any success they have, sure they'll make a little money on the side too. Eventually I'm sure the players will form their own Union if they aren't content with the practices of their said team, or they'll ask to be traded. Either way, what you said will be unheard because the Korean scene is Korean (redundant I know -_-) for a reason. The foreign viewers are just icing on the cake to them.
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double post - revised other one with remarks.
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I think this should be repeated, learn it by heart:
"On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote: I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice."
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 00:38 Jayson X wrote: You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer! He also knows that e-sports in Korea was already successful long before KeSPA managed everything.
Moreover, if there isn't enough money to support all these players, then why does KeSPA allow them to become progamers (slaves) instead of forcing them to find an actual career or to go for higher education? Perhaps because more slaves = more money for KeSPA, so they have no financial incentive to stop it. In fact, in recent years KeSPA has only increased the # of players who become official progamers each year, despite the fact that essentially all of them are doomed to slavery until they quit.
Edit: Actually, I don't see how it'd kill the proteams to give their players a minimum wage instead of giving all the money to a handful of top players. So I don't see why there isn't a rule making a minimum wage mandatory.
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
are you kidding me man? Do you expect health benefits and a 401k for pro gamers? The industry has to start somewhere. You can't get ahead of yourself and expect the world before the foundation is established.
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Keep in mind, workers in sweatshops in third world countries aren't forced to work there either. Taking advantage of their desperate situation still doesn't justify it.
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1. Kespa does it in benefit of the fans? Come on. Boycotting GOM's tournament was TOTALLY in favor of the fans, especially foreign fans right? Telling teams to stop playing in it etc was totally promoting e-sports and making it bigger, destroying the tournament with biggest prize pools and most relaxed schedules etc 2. 'Blizzard just suddenly came out of nowhere demanding our respect for their IP'. ... What are they talking about? The whole IP thing started when they started SELLING BROADCASTING RIGHTS for starcraft. 3. They're just dodging the questions where they're 'accused' of not respecting IP.
Both are greedy, thats certain, but in no sense is kespa better than blizzard.
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One thing though, pro gamers aren't 'desperate' Longshank. Find me one desperate pro gamer and maybe there would be some validity to your argument. There are outside forces that gravitate the poor to work in those sweatshops. They don't really have a choice. Whereas pro gamers do. If they wanted to take their ball and go home and work towards an education. They can.
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CA10824 Posts
On June 01 2010 01:09 Longshank wrote: Keep in mind, workers in sweatshops in third world countries aren't forced to work there either. Taking advantage of their desperate situation still doesn't justify it. that's a terrible analogy and you know it
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my heart breaks at all the WC3 bashing. anyone who just blatantly claimes that there is no real "esports" in wc3 (like leagues where every player gets monthly payments) doesn't know about WC3L and the many tournaments running every year, where you can make huge sums of money (like 35-50 every year), especially in countries like china (even though central europe and russia are pretty huge too).
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CA10824 Posts
On June 01 2010 01:05 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:38 Jayson X wrote: You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer! He also knows that e-sports in Korea was already successful long before KeSPA managed everything. Moreover, if there isn't enough money to support all these players, then why does KeSPA allow them to become progamers (slaves) instead of forcing them to find an actual career or to go for higher education? Perhaps because more slaves = more money for KeSPA, so they have no financial incentive to stop it. In fact, in recent years KeSPA has only increased the # of players who become official progamers each year, despite the fact that essentially all of them are doomed to slavery until they quit. Edit: Actually, I don't see how it'd kill the proteams to give their players a minimum wage instead of giving all the money to a handful of top players. So I don't see why there isn't a rule making a minimum wage mandatory. i would highly disagree the statement that esports was "already successful" before kespa managed stuff. i mean sure, if you think having a bunch of teenagers stuck in a 1 room apartment living off of 1 bowl of ramen a day, only able to feed themselves off of tourney winnings rather than a salary/sponsorship by large corporations is a successful esports scene then i guess you have a point.
*edit* with regards to the minimum wage thing, i think it has to do with the fact that some of their b-teamers are under the legal working age... but you can't really blame kespa for that, since these minors need their parents' permission to become progamers
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Yeah there are several tournaments for Warcraft 3, but do they get the same coverage on cable networks as SC:BW let alone actual press? Not so much. Usually they're live feeds.
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On June 01 2010 00:47 Maaku wrote:Show nested quote +You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer! Then why are there reports off some pros earning $200,000+ but on the other end they earn $10,000?
What has that to do with anything Blizzard - KeSPa related? But ok. There are progamers that are MILES away from other progamers. A teamers that get run over hardcore by big names! People act like everyone is more or less on the same level but that's such a misconception. There are A teamers that dont even come close to 50% winrate.
Look i'm all for the idea that raising the salary level for players not in the spotlight is great. But here's some reality check. Either you WIN games or you WIN fans. There is no value in loosing and hiding. Noone is forcing you to be a practice partner. I'm not saying "shut up or leave", i'm saying "improve the system, the enviroment step by step".
If you think someone like Dongrae should earn more cash and Flash less you are out of your mind. And how on earth should that be the fault of KeSPa anyway?
You don't simply run into a sponsors office going "There are players that don't win, have faces like a car crash, no personality for the entertainment business....more cash is what i'm saying. NOW".
The scene is doing fine. There is always room for improvement. In fact the Teams should push the players more for anything related outside of the harsh gaming environment. Go for the advertising contracts (like with Reach and Yellow back in the day), more shows (Nal_rA's and Hyungjun's should just be the start), more publicity appearances (like SKT1 does it on a regular basis), more TV appearance (like Nada). That is how you build up. That's how sponsors recognize your work and are willing to put more money in the system.
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On June 01 2010 01:21 StarStruck wrote: Yeah there are several tournaments for Warcraft 3, but do they get the same coverage on cable networks as SC:BW let alone actual press? Not so much. Usually they're live feeds.
There are much more people watching and playing WC3 in China than there are people watching and playing BW in SK. I don't know the exact details since I'm out of the scene, but I know China has it's own Tv Channel for eSports too (like OGN and MBC).
And outside of the "big countries", WC3 is much bigger than BW.
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On June 01 2010 01:05 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:38 Jayson X wrote: You of all people should know best that there is basically no profit in ESPORTS and feeding 300+ progamers is an achievement in itself. You know that some of these sponsors could have easily left the scene during the recession but for an industry revolving around such an old game we have a remarkable stable enviroment. Progaming houses costs are in the millions. Yes you do have your B teamers and practice partner that make next to nothing but money wont just rain out of the sky. Everyone in the scene is a pioneer!
I don't know what's going to happen next, but i dont see how rerouting the money flow and every right over any content to Blizzard is going to help any progamer! He also knows that e-sports in Korea was already successful long before KeSPA managed everything. Moreover, if there isn't enough money to support all these players, then why does KeSPA allow them to become progamers (slaves) instead of forcing them to find an actual career or to go for higher education? Perhaps because more slaves = more money for KeSPA, so they have no financial incentive to stop it. In fact, in recent years KeSPA has only increased the # of players who become official progamers each year, despite the fact that essentially all of them are doomed to slavery until they quit. What? I'm sorry, but that's not Kespa's responsibility; that responsibility lies with the progamer and his family. What are you trying to say, that Kespa "tricks" impressionable kids into becoming progamers? We all know teenagers aren't the brightest of thinkers, but these kids made the conscious decision to become a progamer with full knowledge of all the risks involved. Hell, most of them had to get approval from their parents. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Kespa.
Sure, progaming could be considered a shitty job, but so is working in the fast food industry. Why aren't we criticizing THEM for not forcing its employees to find an "actual career" and get a higher education? More slaves = more money for McDonalds, right? But then, who will be serving us our burgers?
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
This is far more serious than many here seem to realize. Blizzard is trying to single-handedly wreck e-sports. If they can, by claiming intellectual property rights, prevent tournaments for their games from being broadcast then the entire concept of e-sports will be discredited. If tennis were owned by some corporation as "intellectual property," the said corporation having the power to shut down any organized competition, then tennis could not possibly be considered a sport. It is the same here. I'm personally appalled at Blizzard's cynical behavior, even if, legally, they're in the right (which there is ground to doubt).
If Blizzard has its way, "e-sports" will end up as little more than another marketing tool for game companies (which is how Blizzard seems to see it). It is doubtful that I will ever buy any of their products again.
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Well aware and there are many more variables that factor into that as well
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On June 01 2010 01:28 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 01:21 StarStruck wrote: Yeah there are several tournaments for Warcraft 3, but do they get the same coverage on cable networks as SC:BW let alone actual press? Not so much. Usually they're live feeds. There are much more people watching and playing WC3 in China than there are people watching and playing BW in SK. I don't know the exact details since I'm out of the scene, but I know China has it's own Tv Channel for eSports too (like OGN and MBC). And outside of the "big countries", WC3 is much bigger than BW. wc3 in china is pretty big but nowhere near having 300+ progamers + serveral teams like in korea. Let alone the viewership.I like wc3 don't understand me wrong but I don't know where you got that info from.
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Rough summary of other events going on.
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
The article just tell me how desperate is KeSPA now. Selling broadcasting rights for a game they didn't create more or less screw them self up.
blizzard didn't support e-sport is pretty much... a joke? They won't have partnered ESL tv if this is true.
but if kespa were really sincere in helping SC2 as a e-sport, rating it as adult only? and i personally do thinks that GomTV and KeSPA have 2 different agreement for broadcasting rights, maybe blizzard demanded money from their previous broadcasting rights, who knows?
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wow i'm baffled at how people actually supports KESPA on the basis that players needs KESPA to provide them with a suitable (LOL?) environment as in progaming house + salary for them to pursuit their dreams to be a progamer, which we all know how all that'd end up for most of the kids in korea..
i mean just look at how KESPA handled the so called "Free Agent" player shit that allows player transfer, does it really looks like they give a shit about the players?
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On June 01 2010 01:31 HnR)hT wrote: This is far more serious than many here seem to realize. Blizzard is trying to single-handedly wreck e-sports. If they can, by claiming intellectual property rights, prevent tournaments for their games from being broadcast then the entire concept of e-sports will be discredited. If tennis were owned by some corporation as "intellectual property," the said corporation having the power to shut down any organized competition, then tennis could not possibly be considered a sport. It is the same here. I'm personally appalled at Blizzard's behavior. It is no doubtful that I will ever buy any of their products again. Yeah, its not a sport then.. Its just a promotion tool for them.. Nobody owns real sports.. Who will invest money in something one company has complete control..
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
How many people here can do a comparison between progaming now and in 2003, before KeSPA had its hands in everything?
I can, to some extent.
Here are some of the similarities and differences that come to mind:
- At both times, the top players were the only ones who made significant money. But now there are MANY more progamers on the teams who earn nothing. Furthermore, since this kind of treatment has been going on for so long, you'd think an organization like KeSPA would've instituted some kind of minimum wage rule years ago, or helped create a progamers' union, if it actually gave a damn about the players.
- At both times, there were sponsored individual leagues hosted by OnGameNet and KPGA/MBCGame. These really haven't changed at all. There might be more prize money now, but it still goes to only the top 2 or 3 players in the league. There are team leagues now, but these started a long time ago, and OGN and MBCGame were the ones who decided to start their own team leagues. So I doubt KeSPA deserves any thanks for this.
- In 2003, there weren't many rules for progaming matches. Players could talk during the match. Players could do "ceremonies" after their matches (although this really only picked up a few years ago, before KeSPA outlawed it). Now, we have stupid rules that were created by KeSPA. Players can't have ceremonies anymore. Players can't type ANYTHING during a match except for "gg" and "pp" -- EXACTLY these two things. Thanks to KeSPA, typing "ppp" to ask for a pause because your monitor stopped working (hence you can't really see that you mistyped "pp") = disqualification.
- In the past, besides OGN, MBCGame, and WCG, there haven't been many other leagues for progamers to compete in. There were some that existed before 2003, but disappeared before then. iTV existed for a while, but folded. Then KeSPA started to control everything. For a long time there was nothing but OGN, MBCGame, and WCG, although this is not necessarily KeSPA's fault: afaik it was just hard for other companies to secure sponsors. Then, recently, GOM came along and introduced its own league. They even got Tasteless to provide english commentary, which is something UNHEARD OF from the ranks of OGN and MBCGame. How did KeSPA respond? Did they try to make e-sports bigger? Did they embrace GOM and help them to become big like OGN and MBCGame? Nope. KeSPA kicked e-sports in the nuts by forbidding progamers to play in GOM, effectively shutting GOM down. Is this the kind of behaviour we're supposed to see from a company that "helps e-sports"?
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blizzard assclowns know damn well that the only way their pathetic SC2 product will be more successful than BW (after the initial post-release hype) is by eliminating any reminder on how good the original game was.
despite 12 years of technological superiority, SC2 is not even remotely interesting enough to take BW's place as the top e-sport and spectator's sport, so blizzard has to do their best to completely remove BW from TV, and leave the starcraft universe fans with only one option: to watch their cool SC2 units use their super cool special powers, among the boring nothingness that this game really is.
kind of like another personal favorite of mine, WWE in wrestling, watered down and numbifyingly stupid product with great pyrotechnics and huge production budget but no substance, perfectly suited for braindead corporate children of 2010.
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Why does Blizz remind me of Microsoft more and more lol
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Bill no one is denying KeSPA's stupid moves. The hardcore fans are aware of their antics, but the terms Blizzard are asking for are absolutely ridiculous. Everyone can see that.
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On June 01 2010 01:51 MageKirby wrote: Why does Blizz remind me of Microsoft more and more lol Soon Bill Gates comes around too, e-sport on TV with my Windows? Pay me plz
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On June 01 2010 01:55 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 01:51 MageKirby wrote: Why does Blizz remind me of Microsoft more and more lol Soon Bill Gates comes around too, e-sport on TV with my Windows? Pay me plz This is pretty much what Blizzard is doing...
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First, I ask this once again, why does anybody believe what KeSPA says? They have lied several times, they are continuing to lie, they are making aggressive attacks against Blizzard and they are breaking NDA agreements. They are being everything that representatives of korean esports should NOT be doing.
Second, why is partnering with GomTV not the single most brilliant thing and something that KeSPA should be happy for? GomTV has the internet market and international casters (tasteless), KeSPA has the television market and the players. With both of these things combined they can create an international market and make even more money. There is big money in streaming over the internet now.
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On June 01 2010 01:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 01:55 wiesel wrote:On June 01 2010 01:51 MageKirby wrote: Why does Blizz remind me of Microsoft more and more lol Soon Bill Gates comes around too, e-sport on TV with my Windows? Pay me plz This is pretty much what Blizzard is doing... I really wish that the two of you get a job in the game industry, you clearly deserve it.
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On June 01 2010 01:14 Ahzz wrote: 1. Kespa does it in benefit of the fans? Come on. Boycotting GOM's tournament was TOTALLY in favor of the fans, especially foreign fans right? Telling teams to stop playing in it etc was totally promoting e-sports and making it bigger, destroying the tournament with biggest prize pools and most relaxed schedules etc 2. 'Blizzard just suddenly came out of nowhere demanding our respect for their IP'. ... What are they talking about? The whole IP thing started when they started SELLING BROADCASTING RIGHTS for starcraft. 3. They're just dodging the questions where they're 'accused' of not respecting IP.
Both are greedy, thats certain, but in no sense is kespa better than blizzard.
honestly gom kinda sucked pretty bad (especially in 3rd season) and progamers were definitely getting overworked with a 3rd individual league (see JD/flash/stork/jangbi etc around last summer) so yea lol
IMO sorta made pro SC better even if it was a dick move.
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it seems as if neither of those who support Kespa or do not read each other posts, total polarity, but the arguments of the Kespa supporters look just more convincing and logical, moreover I personally do not see anything that Kespa did wrong
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Yeah, they were getting over worked. OSL, MSL and PL is more than enough to keep the top players occupied. I can see why many teams wanted to opt out.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 01:48 Bill307 wrote: Then, recently, GOM came along and introduced its own league. They even got Tasteless to provide english commentary, which is something UNHEARD OF from the ranks of OGN and MBCGame. How did KeSPA respond? Did they try to make e-sports bigger? Did they embrace GOM and help them to become big like OGN and MBCGame? Nope. KeSPA kicked e-sports in the nuts by forbidding progamers to play in GOM, effectively shutting GOM down.
Why shouldn't they? It's funny how people are constantly bashing KeSPA while feeling entitled to its players. They're sponsors. If they don't think they're getting good value for their money by having their players in some internet-only tournament (hell, the sole initial purpose of GOMTV was to promote the GOM player), then they pull out.
Also, you can't at the same time express concern about the welfare of progamers and support the existence of a third league that increases their already heavy workload.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 01:21 LosingID8 wrote: i would highly disagree the statement that esports was "already successful" before kespa managed stuff. i mean sure, if you think having a bunch of teenagers stuck in a 1 room apartment living off of 1 bowl of ramen a day, only able to feed themselves off of tourney winnings rather than a salary/sponsorship by large corporations is a successful esports scene then i guess you have a point. So they're better-off now, but they're still slaves. (I actually don't remember conditions being as bad as you say they were, but whatever.)
I wonder if their living conditions would've improved anyway as e-sports grew from its own momentum? I have yet to see anyone make a convincing argument that the people who run KeSPA now were crucial to the growth of StarCraft as an e-sport. People seem to assume e-sports would've just stagnated if it wasn't for KeSPA. And the guys who run KeSPA now are not necessarily the ones who ran it in the past, either. They may be working under the same name, but that doesn't mean those people actually did anything useful themselves.
Today, I see KeSPA as nothing more than a selfish money-making entity that supports e-sports only so far as it earns KeSPA more money. The thing is, anyone can do that. If Blizzard ends up doing the same selfish thing, then maybe they'll be as bad as KeSPA, but they won't be worse.
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On June 01 2010 02:07 StarStruck wrote: Yeah, they were getting over worked. OSL, MSL and PL is more than enough to keep the top players occupied. I can see why many teams wanted to opt out.
80000 dollars. . .
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote: Today, I see KeSPA as nothing more than a selfish money-making entity that supports e-sports only so far as it earns KeSPA more money (see what they did to GOM as an example of money > e-sports). The thing is, anyone can do that. If Blizzard ends up doing the same selfish thing, then maybe they'll be as bad as KeSPA, but they won't be worse.
How is KeSPA making all this money? They're sponsors. They don't charge entry fees, they don't sell merchandise. The broadcasting rights they sold were a one-time affair, and I doubt they even cover all the costs.
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News that Blizzard is planning to release 100 limited marine action figures each at $300+ just can't help pushing me more and more into the anti-Blizzard mode.
Come on, Blizzard. Just go back making games and not try to dominate the whole eSports scene. We don't need you in that. And we don't need your evil ploy in destroying the BW scene to make way for the SC2 scene.
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On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote: Also, you can't at the same time express concern about the welfare of progamers and support the existence of a third league that increases their already heavy workload.
edit: I totally fucked up what I was saying, haven't slept. Let me start over.
The bottom line is GOM had the biggest prize pool in BW history. It should be a team's responsibility to give their players ANY chance at making money.
The pro-league schedule was out of control then. It is slightly better now and there could be plenty of room for another star league.
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按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想:其实星际也是韩国人的,暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
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On June 01 2010 02:13 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote: Today, I see KeSPA as nothing more than a selfish money-making entity that supports e-sports only so far as it earns KeSPA more money (see what they did to GOM as an example of money > e-sports). The thing is, anyone can do that. If Blizzard ends up doing the same selfish thing, then maybe they'll be as bad as KeSPA, but they won't be worse. How is KeSPA making all this money? They're sponsors. They don't charge entry fees, they don't sell merchandise. The broadcasting rights they sold were a one-time affair, and I doubt they even cover all the costs.
They must pay their staff in love.
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its pretty funny that they refer to CGS as a failure league ROFL
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On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 01:21 LosingID8 wrote: i would highly disagree the statement that esports was "already successful" before kespa managed stuff. i mean sure, if you think having a bunch of teenagers stuck in a 1 room apartment living off of 1 bowl of ramen a day, only able to feed themselves off of tourney winnings rather than a salary/sponsorship by large corporations is a successful esports scene then i guess you have a point. I wonder if their living conditions would've improved anyway as e-sports grew from its own momentum? You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power..
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote: Also, you can't at the same time express concern about the welfare of progamers and support the existence of a third league that increases their already heavy workload.
I'm pretty sure the progamers are going to be playing their 11-13 hours a day with or without a 3rd league. And I don't see why they can't choose to focus on only one or two of the leagues, unless they have no choice in the matter, but that'd be the fault of the teams and sponsors, not GOM's existence.
On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote: Why shouldn't they? It's funny how people are constantly bashing KeSPA while feeling entitled to its players. They're sponsors. If they don't think they're getting good value for their money by having their players in some internet-only tournament (hell, the sole initial purpose of GOMTV was to promote the GOM player), then they pull out. Honestly, is it REALLY going to affect OGN and MBCGame THAT MUCH if some of the players are playing in GOM as well? Like, is there going to be a measurable decrease in player skill that will result in a measurable number of fans leaving? Are the OSL, MSL, and Proleague noticeably better now that GOM isn't around?
KeSPA doesn't care about e-sports. They care about money.
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It sounds like KeSPA is too late to do anything, but we'll see.
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8715 Posts
argh KeSPA needs to get a good translator as a first step. This English is not what you'd expect from a professional organization at all
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote: You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:25 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote: Also, you can't at the same time express concern about the welfare of progamers and support the existence of a third league that increases their already heavy workload.
I'm pretty sure the progamers are going to be playing their 11-13 hours a day with or without a 3rd league. And I don't see why they can't choose to focus on only one or two of the leagues, unless they have no choice in the matter, but that'd be the fault of the teams and sponsors, not GOM's existence. Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote: Why shouldn't they? It's funny how people are constantly bashing KeSPA while feeling entitled to its players. They're sponsors. If they don't think they're getting good value for their money by having their players in some internet-only tournament (hell, the sole initial purpose of GOMTV was to promote the GOM player), then they pull out. Honestly, is it REALLY going to affect OGN and MBCGame THAT MUCH if some of the players are playing in GOM as well? Like, is there going to be a measurable decrease in player skill that will result in a measurable number of fans leaving? Are the OSL, MSL, and Proleague noticeably better now that GOM isn't around? KeSPA doesn't care about e-sports. They care about money.
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote: You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports.
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damn this is like bison fighting sagat, i just hope the best for BW
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On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote: You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
Impossible, KeSPA is the only vessel through which sponsors can communicate. Think of KeSPA as the pope.
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its quite funny how you said Kespa doesnt care about E-sports and care about the money. its really the other way around
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On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote: 按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想:其实星际也是韩国人的,暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
LoL, this is a funny post.
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I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I am a law student who has been following the SC eSports scene for about 2 years now, and I felt like I could contribute to this discussion.
I want to get away from the moralizing here and try to figure out what the future of E-sports will look like now that Blizzard has entered the scene. At the premise, I want to assert that legally, both organizations have some claim to the SC eSports scene. Blizzard owns the IP rights to the game, but doesn’t currently own the broadcasting rights or the scene itself. KeSPA owns the scene and broadcasting rights, but doesn’t own the game. Blizzard is trying to gain control of the broadcasting rights, realizing that to gain control of the broadcasting rights is to gain control over the scene. Why can Blizzard gain control of the broadcasting rights? As dybydx noted earlier, every time a game is broadcasted, certain things like character artwork, game sprites, etc, things that only Blizzard has IP rights to, are used without Blizzard’s permission. Now many other things, like stage design, all graphics, player or commentator commentary, doesn’t belong to Blizzard. But that still gives Blizzard room to sue over their portion, and stop KeSPA from broadcasting the portions that contain their game. Of course, to do that would be to kill the entire point of the broadcast, and Blizzard knows this. In defense of KeSPA, they know this too, and aren’t trying to completely block Blizzard out of the process. They recognize that Blizzard does have some right to be compensated for the use of their game, whether it be a fee for each game played, or a percentage of all profits, ownership of replays or what have you. What KeSPA is not willing to give up is the actual right of broadcasting, because whoever controls the broadcasting rights, controls the scene, and KeSPA wants to remain in control of SC eSports. So who wins in this stalemate? There is always the possibility that Blizzard works up a deal with KeSPA and allows them to continue to control the broadcasting rights. However, given their recent deal with GOM, that seems unlikely. I would suggest that Blizzard will win this confrontation (rightly or wrongly) for the following reasons:
1) They have GOM. The fact that another Korean media outlet is willing to play ball with Blizzard sabotages KeSPA’s position. By giving the broadcasting rights to GOM, they are legally asserting that they control those broadcasting rights in the first place. If KeSPA was to challenge Blizzard in court (which I presume they will), they would not only have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights to their past games, but they would also have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights for their games going forward (in order to stop GOM from broadcasting). It is entirely possible that KeSPA will win the first argument (there seems to be president there, though I can’t say I know Korean law well enough to say for certain), but lose the second, allowing GOM to survive as sort of a “shadow KeSPA.” Which brings me to my second point. By giving GOM not only the rights to broadcast their games, but also to make deals with other broadcasters for their leagues, GOM becomes the new KeSPA. GOM can dictate the rules on how games are to be played, who can sponsor and who can’t, what teams that can participate, etc. as part of the contract for broadcasting rights. There may or may not be a place for KeSPA here (government watchdog?), but given the bad blood between the two in the past, it would seem unlikely that KeSPA would have any real say in how this “shadow KeSPA” would run.
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
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On June 01 2010 02:35 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote: 按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想:其实星际也是韩国人的,暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的 LoL, this is a funny post.
Please translate for the rest of us. These forums are supposed to be english only anyway.
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If we leave this to Blizzard then SCBW in Korea is dead, period.
They just want to get SC2 out there because that's what's in their best interest. They don't give a shit about SCBW fans because we're a small minority of the people who're going to be looking into SC2.
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Thanks for the post Drunken Argument.
I think that star leagues or something similar will start up right away. There are already plenty of good starcraft 2 players in Korea, and money from blizzard and GOM partners to sponsor them.
Pro-teams and pro-league will probably take alot longer to pop up again, if at all. Should be interesting.
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On June 01 2010 02:46 tobi9999 wrote: If we leave this to Blizzard then SCBW in Korea is dead, period.
They just want to get SC2 out there because that's what's in their best interest. They don't give a shit about SCBW fans because we're a small minority of the people who're going to be looking into SC2. Well duh, that part is obvious. Of course bw is dead if blizzard is in control.. They have a new game to sell..
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On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote: You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA? The same way they do now, and then the scene grew, a variety of sponsors started working out a deal on how to get exposure _together_ by sponsoring teams, paying players salaries and not just tournament winnings etc. Thus kespa was formed. I am referencing the huge essay boonbag wrote in the kespa vs blizzard thread in the star2 forum btw. You also in your posts claim that kespa is a money making machine while the OP of this very thread makes it quite clear that they are a non profit organization. Supposedly paid for so that the companies backing it get their names associated with something cool. How you think that blizzard and gom taking money _out_ of the system could _ever_ be a good thing is beyond me, you want KT SKT etc to pay gom for the right of paying for a starcraft scene?
The humanitarian argument is valid, but it can also be applied to ballet, gymnasitics and tons of other niche sports which require inhumanly hard traing from a very young age to even have a shot at getting anywhere.
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On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote: You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA? A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. From what I've understood KeSPA was established in 1999, but under a different name. When exactly did they take their place as Korea's esport association? I'm quite tired of the argument 'esport was fine before KeSPA' when it seems they've been there since months after the release, I'd like some facts.
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On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote: Today, I see KeSPA as nothing more than a selfish money-making entity that supports e-sports only so far as it earns KeSPA more money. That's hardly fair, is it? Replace every instance of Kespa with Blizzard and it fits just as well.
On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote: The thing is, anyone can do that. If Blizzard ends up doing the same selfish thing, then maybe they'll be as bad as KeSPA, but they won't be worse. I don't think you're looking at both sides rationally. You essentially just said "Maybe Blizzard will be just as bad as Kespa, but at least it won't be Kespa in charge". In other words, you'd prefer it if Blizzard is at the helm even if the status quo was to be maintained. Not only is that a pretty biased viewpoint, you have yet to back up your statement with solid arguments.
You seem to place too much faith in Blizzard without ever addressing the question of "why". Show me how Blizzard will devise this mystical solution to all the problems that plague eSports. Show me how there is ANY sort of guarantee that the situation wouldn't be worse with Blizzard left in charge.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more.
If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me.
So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either.
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On June 01 2010 02:47 keV. wrote: Thanks for the post Drunken Argument.
I think that star leagues or something similar will start up right away. There are already plenty of good starcraft 2 players in Korea, and money from blizzard and GOM partners to sponsor them.
Pro-teams and pro-league will probably take alot longer to pop up again, if at all. Should be interesting.
That seems to make the most sense. GOM will be able to survive for a while only on Blizzard's sponsorship. This would allow GOM to get a few events under its belt and ride the wave of interest SC2's release will create for them. Once winners are produced and popularized, and if none of the other KeSPA sponsored teams defect by that point, GOM can try to create their own pro-teams around those players for a GOM-sponsored Proleauge. If that becomes the case, I think you'll start to see some SCBW players migrate over to the new teams, because that's where the money will be.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either.
They're the SPONSORS.
No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. That's why saying that they're making a profit when this is mainly an advertisement venture is a bit silly.
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On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote: 按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想:其实星际也是韩国人的,暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
LOL!
dude u need to write in english, everyone that doesn't read Chinese is missing out on this.
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On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene.
Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man.
They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc. + OGN and MBC.
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Bill i don't think you're wrong in criticizing KeSPa for it's bad ruling decisions & various stands but you make it sound like KeSPa is this "all over everything" organisation that holds all the teams and players hostage and made them sign this soulsucking deal for eternity.
KeSPa's job as an organisation is to form official standards and be in charge of the whole licensing system. They have their hands in various other matters but ultimately it is the sponsors that have all the leverage. In my view, a perfect association should be composed of team owners, ex players, tournament hosters, broadcasters and YES to some degree the game designers. A piece of everyone involved. Plus where is all the money coming from? Rookie drafts? Come on.
Man listen, do you really think big teams like SKT1 pulled out of GOM because they are afraid of KeSPa giving them the banhammer? Don't you think it maybe has something to do with the fact that for more than half a decade, the game creator never gave much of a fuck about the tournaments, the players, the broadcasters or the fans and just SO HAPPENS to join the e-sports thing when they are about to announce and later on release a new game? Isn't is oh so convenient for Blizzard to just join a more or less stable environment and grab ALL, not some, ALL the rights over everything there is and specifically design their product to hold that position? That to me is an insult to all the people involved and first and foremost an insult to the sponsors.
For all i know everything is still here. There are lots of games casted, we still see price money and sponsors are still pumping cash into an industry that has no idea were it is going. There never was a guarantee for Broodwar. We still see sponsorships given out from tournament to tournament.
Look once again, i don't think you're wrong. I'm just not alright with the fact that everything goes to Blizzard. That's not the way a sport should be run & build up.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Hmm I see the relevant section of the OP now:
Q: Didn't KeSPA also seek profit seeking activities such as selling broadcasting rights? - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporations so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches. - Every year KeSPA submits accounting reports to board of directors, and can make public any accounts regarding complete reinvestment of broadcasting fees. - Fundamentally there needs to be a little bit of industrialization so that the players can show good matches, by solving their needs similarly to that of a profession. - The 12 gaming teams invested a lot of money every year, and KeSPA puts effort into reinvests every cent made by broadcasting fees to create new broadcasts and game organizations. - Events like the world cup and Olympics and other big sports events are impossible without efforts like these.
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On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC.
KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters.
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On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC.
Kespa is a bastard child organisation body of the corporates to protect their investment and interests in the E-Sports business, they are originally made to help regulate and protect the rights of progamers... now they are run haphazardly by the sponsors pulling the strings behind the scene. i do not argue that E-Sports needs a centralised regulating body, but Kespa isn't what E-Sports needs in order to expand and grow.
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5003 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters.
I don't think Korean mega-conglomerates will take it nicely to be one upped by Blizzard, just saying.
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No one is defending all the bad stuff Kespa has done in the past, and no one is denying that thier a bunch of douchebags. However, thats not what this is about at all. Everyone in this thread is just taking sides based on whichever company they hate the most. The important thing here is that SC:BW progaming is about to get shut down.
Why can't just Blizzard/GOM build thier own Esports scene around SC2? Why do they need to go steal something someone else built for the past 10 years? And if they really want to make an international Esport, what are they doing in korea to begin with? Do they really think SC2 will succeed if they kill SC:BW?
GOM has the right to use SC2, good for them, I just wish they'd stay the fuck out of BW. If SC2 is a superior game(LOL) it will take over in the end anyway right....
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters.
Are you trolling me or something? I'm sorry, but what you're arguing seems inane.
KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the needs of the sponsors.
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Why can't just Blizzard/GOM build thier own Esports scene around SC2? Why do they need to go steal something someone else built for the past 10 years? And if they really want to make an international Esport, what are they doing in korea to begin with? Do they really think SC2 will succeed if they kill SC:BW?
In a word, yes. Blizzard has to establish it's right to the eSports scene before SC2, or KeSPA will just naturally progress over. And they can't sue KeSPA for something they haven't done yet (broadcast SC2). Hence, they have to go after the IP rights issue in general. Also remember that this goes beyond broadcasting for SCBW. WoW, WC3, all will be effected by this case.
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Well KeSPA arguments looks nice but there is one point that disturbs me: when they say that esports is like a regular sport and its broadcasting is therefore free, then taking adidas as an example, is completly misleading.
You pay to braodcast the world cup! Adidas is an equipment maker, just like razer in a league for instance so obviously they dont get anything. But the broadcasts are never free.
Now it s a bit easy to compare SC with a ball sport since you cant say who invented such a sport, whereas Blizzard created SC.
But apart from that their reasoning seems pretty well structurated
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On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors.
Are you dodging me or something?
I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist.
There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY.
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On June 01 2010 03:16 WGT-Baal wrote: Well KeSPA arguments looks nice but there is one point that disturbs me: when they say that esports is like a regular sport and its broadcasting is therefore free, then taking adidas as an example, is completly misleading.
You pay to braodcast the world cup! Adidas is an equipment maker, just like razer in a league for instance so obviously they dont get anything. But the broadcasts are never free.
Now it s a bit easy to compare SC with a ball sport since you cant say who invented such a sport, whereas Blizzard created SC.
But apart from that their reasoning seems pretty well structurated But what if football inventor is found and he requested control over all football matches and leagues..
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY.
Again, your point is inane.
Those sponsors that find esports to be worth the investment are in KeSPA. If other companies were involved, then it would just be KeSPA under another name. GOM will perhaps find its own sponsors, but with all the companies interested in a long-term investment in esports (not just one or two starleagues) already in KeSPA, there's no reason to think that they will. Korean business culture makes it even less probable, as the chaebols are all closely linked and often imbricated with one another in joint ventures, so that if KeSPA refuses to deal with GOM other companies will follow suit.
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On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY.
Like you said, Kespa minimises the risks for sponsors. The risk is a lot higher than 10% considering the millions it costs to run a gaming house each year. It took over a decade for the SCBW scene to get to the level of sponsorship it has today. E-sports is not like football (soccer) in Korea, the returns aren't nearly as great. You're exaggerating the amount of money to be made in E-sports. Why would sponsors readily invest millions into an industry if you take away their ability to minimize loses/their representative organization? Corporations like Samsung/STX/SKT, if the risk outweigh the benefits, they will simply not invest.
And if massive conglomerates pull their sponsorship of teams, what makes you so sure other corporations will readily jump in? Why invest millions into e-sports when you have little bargaining power against Blizzard? Kespa may be unnecessary from your perspective but certainly not from the perspective of sponsors.
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I will support Blizzard 100% if it comes up with the money to house and salary 12 progaming A teams. Otherwise, I will continue to support Kespa.
Blizzard should speak with its money not with its words. If it truly supports E-Sports, it will offer to pay Jaedong, Flash, and others more money than Kespa is giving them right now and steal them away. It will hire the A teamers and give them a better salary. It will provide better living conditions. If it can't do that, then it should STFU and leave E-Sports alone.
On another note, I am tired of seeing poor play, especially in SC2. SC2 right now is filled with players that make a shitload of mistakes and have poor multitasking skills. As a fan, I want players that dedicate themselves and train 12 hours a day to give us the best show they can. I don't want to watch people who play casually while juggling other jobs and school. The only player that so far has impressed me is Tester(the ex-progamer). I heard he lives in a private house and practices SC2 12 hours a day.
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On June 01 2010 03:37 hacpee wrote: I will support Blizzard 100% if it comes up with the money to house and salary 12 progaming A teams. Otherwise, I will continue to support Kespa.
I am tired of seeing poor play, especially in SC2. SC2 right now is filled with players that make a shitload of mistakes and have poor multitasking skills. As a fan, I want players that dedicate themselves and train 12 hours a day to give us the best show they can. I don't want to watch people who play casually while juggling other jobs and school. The only player that so far has impressed me is Tester(the ex-progamer). I heard he lives in a private house and practices SC2 12 hours a day.
completely agree. Look Blizzard. We as esports fans only care about awesome bw and sc2 leagues and matches. If you can singlehandedly support 12 progaming teams, constructing team house facilities, pay progamer's salaries, organize leagues like MSL, OSL, Proleague or whatever other league you wish to create, if you can make the Korean esports scene at least as good as it is now, then I don't care what the fuck you do with your SC2 in Korea. Otherwise, you are just ruining it and doing a disservice to us esports fans.
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As long as progaming goes on as is, with the proleague and Starleagues and whatnot, I'm not too worried, although you never know what kind of dumb things Kespa is going to do, being the douchebags that they are.
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On June 01 2010 03:32 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY. Again, your point is inane. Those sponsors that find esports to be worth the investment are in KeSPA. If other companies were involved, then it would just be KeSPA under another name. GOM will perhaps find its own sponsors, but with all the companies interested in a long-term investment in esports (not just one or two starleagues) already in KeSPA, there's no reason to think that they will. Korean business culture makes it even less probable, as the chaebols are all closely linked and often imbricated with one another in joint ventures, so that if KeSPA refuses to deal with GOM other companies will follow suit.
My problem isn't with the idea behind something like KeSPA. Like you said, its the only way something like pro-league will work. I just get agitated when people tell me the only way eSports will ever work is with KeSPA the way it is now.
Put simply, for what the players sacrifice they are not being compensated enough. KeSPA has NO interest in anything but getting sponsors every dime they can.
For what progamers make they should be entitled to pursue any progaming money making opportunity they can. KeSPA choosing to to protect sponsor dollars rather than someones very limited pro-gaming career is just wrong..
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gom> kespa.. i dont give a shit if there is 50 games a week, or just 5.. if i can watch those 5 in English commentary, in english website, without having to listen to some korean screaming, not to mention trying to find games in korean website
Gom had biggest prizes too.. which frankly is better for the players.. even if current team fails, new ones will form..
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On June 01 2010 03:48 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:32 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY. Again, your point is inane. Those sponsors that find esports to be worth the investment are in KeSPA. If other companies were involved, then it would just be KeSPA under another name. GOM will perhaps find its own sponsors, but with all the companies interested in a long-term investment in esports (not just one or two starleagues) already in KeSPA, there's no reason to think that they will. Korean business culture makes it even less probable, as the chaebols are all closely linked and often imbricated with one another in joint ventures, so that if KeSPA refuses to deal with GOM other companies will follow suit. Put simply, for what the players sacrifice they are not being compensated enough. KeSPA has NO interest in anything but getting sponsors every dime they can. Im sure blizzard will pay them more money with better conditions..
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On June 01 2010 03:50 Smikis wrote: gom> kespa.. i dont give a shit if there is 50 games a week, or just 5.. if i can watch those 5 in English commentary, in english website, without having to listen to some korean screaming, not to mention trying to find games in korean website
Gom had biggest prizes too.. which frankly is better for the players.. even if current team fails, new ones will form..
Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great.
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On May 31 2010 22:56 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:53 FortuneSyn wrote:On May 31 2010 22:38 Milkis wrote:On May 31 2010 21:31 fallingdream wrote: - 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you. - oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans? - starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me. - logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits. - oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0 You know it's people like you who completely make me regret bothering to stay until 4 AM translating this shit, people who's just willing to stay up and wake up and make ignorant, bullshit comments and not read anything else. Holy shit. Get rid of your fucking biases and read or something, cause honestly it's people like you who put in a terrible taste in my mouth and make me think twice how worthwhile it was. So yeah, no thank you for actually reading what I translated. Actually, I probably don't even need to translate for idiots like you because you probably will have an opinion no matter what and not afraid to speak regardless of the facts. So if people voice opinions that are opposite of what you believe in, then that is considered offensive to you? Stop being childish. He makes very good points in his post, and you reply with complete ass-whine. Try arguing against his point instead of ass-whining. Opposite? Nothing to do with that. The point is it's clear he didn't even bother spending time reading everything I translated and just jumped to some minor points with retarded assumptions. @ FortuneSyn: Nice, jumping into the fray without considering what was said.
It is not about "ass-whining". While, fallingdream made the point that that KeSPA chose its own interests over the survival of GOM gaming broadcasts, everything else was mere rhetoric.
Of course every team cares about what happens to KeSPA, who represent the sponsors that keep SC1 afloat (and give them a level of stability).
The sponsors not make an actual profit - they do it for the positive image/advertizing.
You just went after Milkis, who also had "good points" or motive to respond to Fortunesyn.
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Blizzard paying for teams and houses? what are you guys smoking?
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
So from what I understand, KeSPA works for the benefit of the sponsors. So just translate every time I said more money for KeSPA into more money / less expenses for the sponsors.
The sponsors work together to make SC as profitable for them (via exposure to the fans) as possible. When KeSPA says they work for the benefit of the fans, that is actually true, since more fans = more exposure for the sponsors. But like I've said, they don't really care about the vast majority of the players, only the ones with significant fan bases: the rest are replaceable and are treated as such.
Furthermore, they don't care about e-sports in general. They care about the e-sports sponsored by themselves. If another company wants to get into e-sports without benefitting the KeSPA sponsors, then KeSPA's best interest is to forcibly shut them down, like we saw with GOM. Basically, they want to maintain a monopoly on e-sports.
On June 01 2010 03:32 snowdrift86 wrote:Again, your point is inane.
Those sponsors that find esports to be worth the investment are in KeSPA. If other companies were involved, then it would just be KeSPA under another name. GOM will perhaps find its own sponsors, but with all the companies interested in a long-term investment in esports (not just one or two starleagues) already in KeSPA, there's no reason to think that they will. Korean business culture makes it even less probable, as the chaebols are all closely linked and often imbricated with one another in joint ventures, so that if KeSPA refuses to deal with GOM other companies will follow suit. Maybe other potential sponsors disagree with the way KeSPA runs things, in some way? Or maybe some of the competitors of the existing sponsors are being kept out of the loop?
Even if every possible sponsor is already a part of KeSPA (which I doubt), that doesn't mean they won't deal with Blizzard + GOM in the future, especially if there is money to be made sponsoring GOM and SC2.
I can see why the sponsors oppose Blizzard's terms. Not only do they want to avoid paying licensing fees to Blizzard, they also want to avoid losing control of the scene, which makes e-sports a much more risky investment. Still, if other companies play ball with Blizzard and start profiting from it, then it may illustrate that the companies can still turn a nice profit despite the added fees and increased risks. Being a business itself, I doubt Blizzard would take a huge risk like this -- the risk of destroying the e-sports scene for StarCraft and greatly hurting their games -- if they hadn't already spoken to or made deals with other potential sponsors to keep e-sports going strong even with KeSPA temporarily out of the picture.
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so both companies are like, "i want to be in charge, and only me. It would make 0 sense to share responsibility or try to make the pro scene better and more global." hmm...
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On June 01 2010 03:36 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY. Like you said, Kespa minimises the risks for sponsors. The risk is a lot higher than 10% considering the millions it costs to run a gaming house each year. It took over a decade for the SCBW scene to get to the level of sponsorship it has today. E-sports is not like football (soccer) in Korea, the returns aren't nearly as great. You're exaggerating the amount of money to be made in E-sports. Why would sponsors readily invest millions into an industry if you take away their ability to minimize loses/their representative organization? Corporations like Samsung/STX/SKT, if the risk outweigh the benefits, they will simply not invest. And if massive conglomerates pull their sponsorship of teams, what makes you so sure other corporations will readily jump in? Why invest millions into e-sports when you have little bargaining power against Blizzard? Kespa may be unnecessary from your perspective but certainly not from the perspective of sponsors.
I'm not sure at all. Every non-KeSPA controlled theory I have includes the stipulation that there is money to be made. If I can prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that you can profit from investing into my league or tournament, why wouldn't you?
I don't think I've exaggerated the amount of money anywhere in my posts. Truthfully, I have a hard time believing that these companies see a worthwhile return from esports period, but there must be something that keeps them coming back.
Sponsors should have rights, but not at the expense of player's rights.
I don't understand how anyone expects esports to grow if KeSPA stayed as they are right now. They have NO intention of going international. GOM, god bless them, tried and was thwarted by sponsors who were focused on the short term losses they may or may not take from a non-KeSPA sanctioned tournament being run.
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On June 01 2010 03:50 Smikis wrote: gom> kespa.. i dont give a shit if there is 50 games a week, or just 5.. if i can watch those 5 in English commentary, in english website, without having to listen to some korean screaming, not to mention trying to find games in korean website = i dont give a shit if there is a terrorist attack that kills many people as long as Im not affected..
Korean sponsors are paying for leagues so they can get exposure and advertise to Korean audiences.. Why would they care about internationals.. Does Lithuanian basketball league have english commentary? No? Those bastards...
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On June 01 2010 04:00 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:36 Ryo wrote:On June 01 2010 03:19 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:13 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:08 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man. They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc., + OGN and MBC. KeSPA is NOT the sponsors, they REPRESENT the sponsors and they are there to make sure that everyone gets their money. KeSPA is a middle man between Samsung and GOM. I'm asking you to explain how esports is going to fall apart if sponsors talk directly to broadcasters. Are you trolling me or something? KeSPA is made up of representatives of each company. It's not a "middle man"; it has no separate, independent interests -- it exists only to fulfill the need of the sponsors. Are you dodging me or something? I know what KeSPA is for the 100000th fucking time. I'm asking you to explain to me why the e-sports model would fall apart if sponsors didn't have KeSPA. KeSPA is a cushion, it is a luxury that sponsors have to make sure that they get whatever they were promised. It turns a 10% risk venture into a .05% venture. I'm asking you AGAIN to tell me why it is impossible for sponsors to deal with broadcasters without the KeSPA cushion. KeSPA not existing does not mean that players/fans and the rest of the market does not exist. There is money to be made in eSports. Sponsors that find it worth investing into will still invest. KeSPA is simply UNNECESSARY. Like you said, Kespa minimises the risks for sponsors. The risk is a lot higher than 10% considering the millions it costs to run a gaming house each year. It took over a decade for the SCBW scene to get to the level of sponsorship it has today. E-sports is not like football (soccer) in Korea, the returns aren't nearly as great. You're exaggerating the amount of money to be made in E-sports. Why would sponsors readily invest millions into an industry if you take away their ability to minimize loses/their representative organization? Corporations like Samsung/STX/SKT, if the risk outweigh the benefits, they will simply not invest. And if massive conglomerates pull their sponsorship of teams, what makes you so sure other corporations will readily jump in? Why invest millions into e-sports when you have little bargaining power against Blizzard? Kespa may be unnecessary from your perspective but certainly not from the perspective of sponsors. I don't understand how anyone expects esports to grow if KeSPA stayed as they are right now. They have NO intention of going international. GOM, god bless them, tried and was thwarted by sponsors who were focused on the short term losses they may or may not take from a non-KeSPA sanctioned tournament being run.
Why would they go international? Kespa was made for Korean Esports, not for international esports.
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On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. That's why saying that they're making a profit when this is mainly an advertisement venture is a bit silly.
How can people keep missing this point? It's beyond me.
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I stopped reading when I remembered No Lan, Do You Even Want Chat Rooms and GG E-Sports was the first thought that popped into my head. The whole dispute between acti-blizzard and kespa doesnt even matter at this point.
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On June 01 2010 03:16 WGT-Baal wrote: Well KeSPA arguments looks nice but there is one point that disturbs me: when they say that esports is like a regular sport and its broadcasting is therefore free, then taking adidas as an example, is completly misleading. You pay to braodcast the world cup! Adidas is an equipment maker, just like razer in a league for instance so obviously they dont get anything. But the broadcasts are never free. ...
This is not obvious at all when it comes to IP rights. The design of the sport shoes (the IP) is owned by adidas. So it is not clear that you are allowed to broadcast anything which shows that IP (the design).
Also think about car racing: Each and every car manufacturer could claim that you are only able to "play this game", because they created/invented the necessary cars.
The car companies could also claim that when you buy a car that you only buy a license to use this car but in you do not own the car. (A little bit like a hidden leasing contract...)
Then the car manufacturers could claim that they own the broadcasting rights for every kind of car race, since your license does not include to broadcast images of this car.
Additionally they could forbid any kind of modification to a car which is used in a car race or otherwise, because the car is their product and you are not allowed to modify it.
The big difference is that with a car you would simply not accept these terms, whereas with a computer game for some unknown reason people seem to believe that this kind of purely synthetic IP rights are reasonable...
I wonder if it would help if all SC:BW videos are banned from youtube for a while, with the reasoning that putting SC:BW videos on youtube is exactly the same as broadcasting SC:BW games via TV. Maybe then some of the posters here will come to the conclusion that this kind of IP rights are unreasonable. (Just imagine: No VOD thread anywhere on TL...)
It might also be helpful if Microsoft started to claim that broadcasters of any computer game running on the Windows OS need the permission from Microsoft. Maybe then some of the posters here might find that this kind of IP rights are unreasonable. (Just imagine: No VODs of gaming anywhere in the world...)
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch.
Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better.
Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave.
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How is it that the people telling me that KeSPA is non-profit are the same people telling me that KeSPA are sponsors.
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United States32478 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:08 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch. Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better. Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave.
Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:07 lundril wrote: [snip] Blizzard is not going to stop everyone from broadcasting SC/SC2. It may say that in the EULA, but they won't because it would do far more harm than good.
Blizzard makes more money as a result of people streaming themselves playing Blizzard's games, and organizing tournaments for it. Why would Blizzard stop that?
Blizzard has simply decided that it can make more money from the e-sports scene in Korea by acting on its ownership of the broadcasting rights there. Blizzard believes they can keep e-sports going in Korea while also having control over the broadcasting and receiving broadcasting fees. And if they can't, then it is in their best interest to return to the current model, so that they can continue to benefit from the presence of e-sports even if they don't have control or receive fees.
As you can see, this situation is vastly different from people uploading videos to Youtube.
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On June 01 2010 04:08 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch. Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better. Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave.
So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say?
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Whatever money they make directly goes right back into their network = non-profit. KeSPA represents all the Sponsors; in other words, every team/sponsor has a representative in the board of directors. ._.
What is so hard to understand about that.
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On June 01 2010 04:08 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch. Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better. Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming.
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On June 01 2010 04:16 StarStruck wrote: Whatever money they make directly goes right back into their network = non-profit. KeSPA represents all the Sponsors; in other words, every team/sponsor has a representative in the board of directors. ._.
What is so hard to understand about that.
So the profit KeSPA doesn't make goes back into pro-teams. Such nice guys.
The interests KeSPA protects sure as hell do not put everything they make back into e-sports.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created Thankfully, I don't think we'd be regressing to 2003-level-of-play. We have higher expectations now, and the players (even non-pros) have a lot of skill built up from all these years of intense StarCraft.
Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be.
Edit: relatedly:
On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote: Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2:
On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote: So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
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Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer earning each year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year.
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5003 Posts
Translating the rest of the Q&A soon.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer making a year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year. B teamers don't make anything really. They usually get housing and food. However, when you look at korea, there are entire clans that fund their own housing and food and play 12 hours. So the players are getting free housing and food by joining the B-team.
Honestly, I think B-team is a waste of time. The STX model is better. They just have B-teamers practice from their own homes and when they get good enough, they can join the A-team.
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10387 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote: Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote: So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore! You would rather watch the TSL rather than the OSL? No one's saying that we don't enjoy watching hobby players, its just that its way better to watch progamers playing at a level beyond these hobby players.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:
I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
The TSL was good in terms of promoting the foreign scene but the games were pretty bad. I watched it a bit to see how ret would do but after that, it got bland with all the obvious mistakes and multi-tasking limitations of the players.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created Thankfully, I don't think we'd be regressing to 2003-level-of-play. We have higher expectations now, and the players (even non-pros) have a lot of skill built up from all these years of intense StarCraft. Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be. Edit: relatedly: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote: Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. I guess you must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore! Pro means that you make a living out of it and that its your job.. As far as I know its a hobby for everybody and they play it in their free time.. Just because someone is good doesnt mean "pro" in a true meaning..
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B-Teamers and conditions are not even relevant to this whole discussion so i don't know why people keep bringing it up.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created Thankfully, I don't think we'd be regressing to 2003-level-of-play. We have higher expectations now, and the players (even non-pros) have a lot of skill built up from all these years of intense StarCraft. Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be. Edit: relatedly: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote: Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote: So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
But it's the players themselves, the Boxers and the Yellows, who chose to devote themselves to gaming full-time. They wanted to make a career out of it and the sponsors gave them that opportunity. Even if today's work conditions are pretty bad and I hope they're improved, they're still better than what the players experienced before their sponsorship deals.
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On May 31 2010 15:46 LunarDestiny wrote: Blizzard and we remember when kespa and pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3 and Blizzcon. I was really pissed about July can't go to blizzcon because his team stood with kespa. Blizzard definitely is pissed also.
If Kespa really cared about the fan. Why they told pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3?
Say goodbye to Korean pros at BlizzCon2010
So sad :____(
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On June 01 2010 04:32 Bill307 wrote:I have to respect the balls it takes to dis the TSL on TLnet. So you guys expect nothing less than 13-hours-a-day-pros when you want to enjoy a game of SC? Well, to each his own.
I agree with you 13 hours a day is certainly not healthy. Something around 8 hours should be enough.
But i think it's more of an asian work culture thing. As far as i know they have this long work days in other areas too
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I'm sorry I don't really get the whole legal status of these developments, HOW WILL THIS AFFECT BY BELOVED E-SPORTS?
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On June 01 2010 04:32 Bill307 wrote:I have to respect the balls it takes to dis the TSL on TLnet. So you guys expect nothing less than 13-hours-a-day-pros when you want to enjoy a game of SC? Well, to each his own. Champions league final or some dudes getting together and playing in backyard and losers pay for snacks and beer.. Its still football, right?
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Personally, when I think of the players I enjoy watching, it goes like this:
1. very-top koreans (like Flash or Jaedong)
2. certain top- and high-level non-koreans (basically the ones that play smart: they might not have the best mechanics but they rarely if ever make stupid decisions)
Below them: everyone else, korean or not.
I've seen countless progamers and non-koreans alike do stupid things like leave expos blatantly undefended, or throw away their army, and decisions like that are what make players hard for me to watch. Evidently, that's not something you can fix by treating progamers like slaves. And regardless of whether they're korean or not, the players who rise to the top tend to be the ones who make the smart and creative decisions that impress me and lead to great games.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
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Anyone know what korean netizens are saying about these exchanges?
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You should stop using the term slaves its completely wrong. Tell me, what do you think the b-teamers were doing all day before they became progamers?
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On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer earning each year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075
B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract. A-teamers:
What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year.
Average $8300 per year.
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There is nothing more to discuss, just let Korean court decide who's right who's wrong.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:35 snowdrift86 wrote:But it's the players themselves, the Boxers and the Yellows, who chose to devote themselves to gaming full-time. They wanted to make a career out of it and the sponsors gave them that opportunity. Even if today's work conditions are pretty bad and I hope they're improved, they're still better than what the players experienced before their sponsorship deals.
Sponsors aren't humans. They are companies. Unless you're a friend of the CEO, the company is going to evaluate you based on how they can make money with you. That's how companies work.
So some companies found they could make more money by sponsoring a handful of StarCraft players. And they set up an organization to collectively make them even more money.
Although they helped the progaming scene, it was only because they could profit from it in the long run.
Boxer didn't need perosnal sponsors to make a living, anyway. IIRC he's made over $500,000 from tournament winnings alone, which came from Starleague sponsors, who (judging from one of your earlier posts) are not necessarily members of the KeSPA.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:43 infinity2k9 wrote: You should stop using the term slaves its completely wrong. Tell me, what do you think the b-teamers were doing all day before they became progamers? Pursuing an education to some degree.
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Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
lol, I can't believe they used this "argument" in official statement
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On June 01 2010 04:04 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote: What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. That's why saying that they're making a profit when this is mainly an advertisement venture is a bit silly. How can people keep missing this point? It's beyond me.
3 possible reasons: 1. Stupidity 2. Don't care about BW 3. Trolling
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:46 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:35 snowdrift86 wrote:But it's the players themselves, the Boxers and the Yellows, who chose to devote themselves to gaming full-time. They wanted to make a career out of it and the sponsors gave them that opportunity. Even if today's work conditions are pretty bad and I hope they're improved, they're still better than what the players experienced before their sponsorship deals.
Sponsors aren't humans. They are companies. Unless you're a friend of the CEO, the company is going to evaluate you based on how they can make money with you. That's how companies work. So some companies found they could make more money by sponsoring a handful of StarCraft players. And they set up an organization to collectively make them even more money.
How does this relate to my argument? Yes, sponsors saw an advertisement opportunity in esports, and their money improved the work conditions of most gamers.
You haven't addressed my point that it's the players themselves who gave up their education and started playing full-time.
On June 01 2010 04:46 Bill307 wrote: Boxer didn't need perosnal sponsors to make a living, anyway. IIRC he's made over $500,000 from tournament winnings alone, which came from Starleague sponsors, who (judging from one of your earlier posts) are not necessarily members of the KeSPA.
He's one player. The current model is much better for the vast majority of progamers who'll never win a tournament.
On June 01 2010 04:19 Milkis wrote: Translating the rest of the Q&A soon.
Gogo Milkis
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On June 01 2010 04:47 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:43 infinity2k9 wrote: You should stop using the term slaves its completely wrong. Tell me, what do you think the b-teamers were doing all day before they became progamers? Pursuing an education to some degree.
Uh they were playing SC all day to begin with or they wouldn't even get into a b-team in the first place. You seem to have a problem with bad parenting not KeSPA.
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
Q: Blizzard claims that game usage in leagues is not a communal right but something under intellectual property. What do you think about this?
- Sports is not just for/owned by the "Manias" (T/N: Fans really involved in it. Think "Otaku") or special organizations. It has a communal property where normal spectators can watch and be involved in. - If eSports is not a communal property and belongs to an international company called Blizzard, then the entire eSports industry in Korea and the existance of KeSPA becomes wrong from the beginning. All recognition and gains as a culture and sponsorship from Airforce etc disappears.
Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
I don't know how Korean law works, but IP rights in the rest of the western world is contradictory to this.
According to Kespa's logic, a television network can play a movie as many times as they want without consent or royalties to the owner of the movie's rights, or a radio station can play a song as many times as they want without consent or royalties to the rights of the song holder.
Nobody owns the sport of soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc. Those sports were not created by a company. Also, soccer, basketball, and volleyball are not products. You use products to play these sports, but the sport in itself is not a product.
Starcraft was created by a company and Starcraft is a product. Blizzard has full IP rights on their product and KESPA's rationale is laughable.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:50 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:46 Bill307 wrote: Boxer didn't need perosnal sponsors to make a living, anyway. IIRC he's made over $500,000 from tournament winnings alone, which came from Starleague sponsors, who (judging from one of your earlier posts) are not necessarily members of the KeSPA. He's one player. The current model is much better for the vast majority of progamers who'll never win a tournament. So you specifically name Boxer and Yellow in an example, then you backpedal and start talking about all progamers, not just the ones who were as successful as Boxer and Yellow?
You specifically mentioned "Boxers and Yellows" having a "career" in progaming. Well, the vast majority of progamers have no career since they get paid essentially nothing for their work.
Did you not read the article on this? Progamers, the ones who aren't "Boxers and Yellows" have no future because they wasted their time making money for the sponsors while missing out on an education and receiving nothing useful in return.
Personally, I'd rather they be forced to stay in school or learn a real job to support themselves, rather than this illusion of a career.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 05:00 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:50 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 04:46 Bill307 wrote: Boxer didn't need perosnal sponsors to make a living, anyway. IIRC he's made over $500,000 from tournament winnings alone, which came from Starleague sponsors, who (judging from one of your earlier posts) are not necessarily members of the KeSPA. He's one player. The current model is much better for the vast majority of progamers who'll never win a tournament. So you specifically name Boxer and Yellow in an example, then you backpedal and start talking about all progamers, not just the ones who were as successful as Boxer and Yellow? You specifically mentioned "Boxers and Yellows" having a "career" in progaming. Well, the vast majority of progamers have no career since they get paid essentially nothing for their work. Did you not read the article on this? Progamers, the ones who aren't "Boxers and Yellows" have no future because they wasted their time making money for the sponsors while missing out on an education and receiving nothing useful in return.
Oh come on, Boxer and Yellow are examples. There were other players, most of them never won anything, and yet they chose to give up their education and devote themselves full-time to gaming. It's the same thing today -- no one is forcing these kids to play. And them being housed and fed without having to win tournaments is definitely an advantage over the previous model.
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They end up as veritable bums because they wasted their time making money for the sponsors while missing out on an education and receiving nothing useful in return.
making money for sponsors -> advertising for sponsors. Sponsors don't make a dime from this other than advertisement. Please stop implying keSPA and sponsors "make money" -- because they clearly don't and grossly twists the situation at hand.
Stop using "Sponsor makes money" or "KeSPA makes money". If they made money, then eSports would actually improve. The issue is that they're nonprofit and think in a very "cultural" "nonprofit" sort of way, which is why gamers have ridiculous contracts.
Oh, and. They made the choice to do that. They gambled, and they lost. They can then go back and get an education, it's not like life ends when you're over 20 just because they got little education -- you can still go to some technical college and go from there.
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On June 01 2010 04:44 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer earning each year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075Show nested quote +B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract. A-teamers: Show nested quote +What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year. Average $8300 per year. Brainlag on my side sry, of course i should have written how much the average "unknown" progamer earns. That a B-teamer as practice partner doesn't make 10k should be obvious hehe.
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On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: Kespa is a non-profit organization. Blizz is a money-monger. That's enough for me, Kespa will win.
So you still believe that Santa comes for Christmas, eh??
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On June 01 2010 05:06 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:44 Teddyman wrote:On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer earning each year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract. A-teamers: What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year. Average $8300 per year. Thanks. Of course i should have written how much the average "unknown" progamer earns. That a B-teamer as practice partner doesn't make 10k should be obvious hehe.
Making 10k or making nothing. Your choice.
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I think KeSPA should try to negotiate/convince a Korean software company to "clone" StarCraft. Would circumvent all of this. Koreans make a SC clone, SC pros move to SC clone, SC clone becomes new premier game. Done deal. Not like Atrox or Kingdom Under Fire, but a true SC clone just with different models/design/names/etc.
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On June 01 2010 05:20 bokchoi wrote: I think KeSPA should try to negotiate/convince a Korean software company to "clone" StarCraft. Would circumvent all of this. Koreans make a SC clone, SC pros move to SC clone, SC clone becomes new premier game. Done deal. Not like Atrox or Kingdom Under Fire, but a true SC clone just with different models/design/names/etc.
That would be like Sudden Attack; a game no one outside of Korea give a damn about.
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Kespa is right. They should just ignore Blizzard's insane demands.
That doesn't mean I'm not excited about Gom.
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I think both sides have their valid points. Kespa, for all intensive purposes, does run the largest, most professional esports activities in the world, and if they are telling the truth about being nonprofit, then kudos to them. However, they've done so by for the most part treating the majority of players like indentured servants, and making a lot of "calls" over the years that have been questionable at best, and totalitarian in some people's eyes.
Blizzard should have rights and royalties every time a starcraft game gets broadcasted for money. The game of starcraft and SC2 is more akin to a song or a movie, to which Blizzard is the writer, than a bat and a ball is to baseball. Sure you have the right to broadcast your games for the licenses you bought, but if you are charging advertisers marketing time, then some of that money needs to be passed on to blizzard, in the same way HBO pays royalties to the movie makers for showing their movies. Television channels get money through advertising, and the higher viewer rating they get, the more they can charge for that slot of advertising. Using blizzard's product is the way they get the viewership rating. I'm sure counterstrike and such others don't get nearly the rating that SC matches do, thus the cable networks can make more money from SC programming than others.
What makes Blizz look very, very bad, is the fact that they are coming in so late to the party. If they STARTED negotiations with Kespa in 2007, that's a long time they let the pro gaming scene develop, flounder, and finally succeed before jumping in and saying, "hey i want a piece of that." We would not be having this discussion if Blizzard had made these assertions from the beginning and followed esports as a partner this whole time. I think the advent of the WoW generation has clouded Blizz's eyes for the last 5-6 years at least, and only now that WoW is in semi-decline/plateau, that Blizz is looking back to esports as a large part of its business.
It has yet to be seen if Blizzard's main motivation is just money (we can only speculate) or executive control, or if they want to create a whole different style of pro scene globally. Whatever the case may be, none of the parties has made it very clear what their goals are. In my mind, Blizzard should have come in the spirit of saying, "What can we do to help esports grow," instead of off the bat claiming illegal activity and wrongdoing. Kespa, on the other hand, responds with the classic fear-inspired, "we don't wanna lose our power, go away!"
For the best of everyone at least who visits this site, it is important that both parties listen to the fans and players to come to a solution, because it really isn't that hard to make a solution that benefits everyone. Kespa retains primary control of esports in Korea and provides English content/commentary along with all their leagues, Blizzard takes modest royalties, and has UN security council veto-like say in issues they feel are harmful to esports or the company. Problem solved.
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
Where is the money going to come from? You don't honestly believe Blizzard itself is going to put money up so that the 'lower ranked' progamers can have a good life, do you? I really would like to believe that people aren't that delusional in regards to favoring Blizzard here.
I mean, it's not surprising that you have strong feelings toward the situation, but I think a lot of those still stem from the same cultural differences that made you leave eSTRO in the first place. When those of us living in the west see conditions like that we freak out (and yes those are rough living conditions no matter if you're used to such things). However, every one of these guys is playing for the potential to become the next Jaedong or Flash right now. The potential is there, and they're willing to work for it.
Don't get me wrong, though. I do think that their conditions should be improved, I just don't think that killing KeSPA is even anywhere close to working toward that. Which makes me cringe when I see this:
On June 01 2010 04:08 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch. Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better. Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave.
It's 'fine' if the largest and most successful eSports scene just disintegrates overnight? You know, on the After Talk regarding match fixing they commented that there were 10 years of eSports they might have to completely rebuild because of the scandal. Somehow I don't think they would like for that thought to be as concrete as you suggest.
Your posts in this thread completely perplex me. How exactly do you suggest conditions would improve in your scenario? Everyone would have 'real' jobs and play games on the side, or something? Would eSports be illegal? Will you ban people from tournaments if you find them practicing for more than 8 hours a day?
This isn't about game quality, it's about the fact that most of us who support eSports do so because of a hope that one day it will be a respected profession (or at least one that you can live off of). The Korean scene is by far the closest we've ever come to that goal, and you're okay with destroying it for the benefit of the b-teamers. You want to kill it to save them. Sigh.
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Im almost siding with kespa due to the last Blizzard fiasco, but then I remember jaedong issues, then I dont know who should I be supporting....
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Does anyone know where we can find the Financial reports from KESPA?
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I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game?
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On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game?
Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues!
Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable?
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On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable?
Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do.
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On June 01 2010 06:32 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:08 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 03:52 hacpee wrote: Who will pay for the team's salaries? For the housing and food? Blizzard? If so, great. Maybe no one will, at first. That's fine. Players don't need to be paid salaries to produce great games of StarCraft. Honestly, they don't need to play 11-13 hours a day, either. Maybe they won't have perfect macro anymore, or perfectly-timed builds for every situation, but so what? Players 5+ years ago sucked compared to today -- hell, the best player at the time, Boxer, was known for having some of the worst macro of any of the high-level pros. But they were still fantastic to watch. Even now, there's no money in progaming for the vast majority of players. That wouldn't change. You just wouldn't be able to have houses of players who play 13 hours a day and don't have to pay for food. Maybe that would actually be for the better. Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. It's 'fine' if the largest and most successful eSports scene just disintegrates overnight? You know, on the After Talk regarding match fixing they commented that there were 10 years of eSports they might have to completely rebuild because of the scandal. Somehow I don't think they would like for that thought to be as concrete as you suggest. Your posts in this thread completely perplex me. How exactly do you suggest conditions would improve in your scenario? Everyone would have 'real' jobs and play games on the side, or something? Would eSports be illegal? Will you ban people from tournaments if you find them practicing for more than 8 hours a day? This isn't about game quality, it's about the fact that most of us who support eSports do so because of a hope that one day it will be a respected profession (or at least one that you can live off of). The Korean scene is by far the closest we've ever come to that goal, and you're okay with destroying it for the benefit of the b-teamers. You want to kill it to save them. Sigh.
This. The bottom line to have a flourishing and successful esports scene is that a bottom line actually exists. Where will the cash come from? If they don't charge ticket for admission, then only sponsors can provide the money. If you take out kespa, which is the sponsors themselves, then the esports scene will just disintegrate, maybe into something like China's sc scene today. You have maybe 20ish semi-progamers in total competing at various tournaments for cash. The best ones may live on those prize, but the majority will win nothing at all, and eventually they all quit because they realize they gotta find a real job to survive.
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On June 01 2010 07:13 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable? Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do.
I choose to volunteer a lot of my time on TeamLiquid. I am not paid. Suppose that I go a step further, and I choose to translate 40 hours a week. I agree to do this. I am not paid. I make a contract with the admin, saying that if I don't translate 40 hours a week, I can be banned. I agree to it.
Is that not fair?
What excuses am I making? The point is simple. If you don't like the conditions, you don't do it. Simple as that. Don't try to baby the progamers by going "aww how sad", and undermine their decisions by reminding them how "bad" it is. They're the one who agreed.
Yes, as long as they're not coerced to make an agreement, I can assume that any agreement is fair. When you say "they're just hoping they can make it big", isn't that just gambling?
It is absolutely okay. Just like it's okay for me to volunteer and not get paid wherever I want, it's okay for anyone else to spend their time at a progame team 13 hours a day to try to make it to the big leagues.
They love the game, so they're more willing to take price cuts. Why do you think plumbers are paid so much? No one wants to do it. Similarly, if there's a lot of people who wants to do it, wage goes down, conditions remain stagnant. Even then there's an army of people wanting to do this.
Stop infantalizing progamers. They have made their decisions, we respect them for accepting such conditions and hope that they improve, but don't try to pretend like they didn't agree to it or something.
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KeSPA has done big things for Korea, but as long as they're running the show they'll contribute nothing to esports outside of Korea.
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The only thing I know is, that I won´t buy it until there is some kind of agreement. If Esports is killed in total due to this, then I won´t buy any more Blizzard games anymore. Somehow I assume, both is kinda impropable.
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"Korea eSports" It's never "Worldwide eSports" They are doomed to fail.
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On June 01 2010 07:23 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:13 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable? Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do. I choose to volunteer a lot of my time on TeamLiquid. I am not paid. Suppose that I go a step further, and I choose to translate 40 hours a week. I agree to do this. I am not paid. I make a contract with the admin, saying that if I don't translate 40 hours a week, I can be banned. I agree to it. Is that not fair? What excuses am I making? The point is simple. If you don't like the conditions, you don't do it. Simple as that. Don't try to baby the progamers by going "aww how sad", and undermine their decisions by reminding them how "bad" it is. They're the one who agreed. Yes, as long as they're not coerced to make an agreement, I can assume that any agreement is fair. When you say "they're just hoping they can make it big", isn't that just gambling? It is absolutely okay. Just like it's okay for me to volunteer and not get paid wherever I want, it's okay for anyone else to spend their time at a progame team 13 hours a day to try to make it to the big leagues. They love the game, so they're more willing to take price cuts. Why do you think plumbers are paid so much? No one wants to do it. Similarly, if there's a lot of people who wants to do it, wage goes down, conditions remain stagnant. Even then there's an army of people wanting to do this. Stop infantalizing progamers. They have made their decisions, we respect them for accepting such conditions and hope that they improve, but don't try to pretend like they didn't agree to it or something.
No its not ok, because pro starcraft is the only "pro sport" that doesnt doesnt pay its "farm league" players. Just because someone agrees to something doesnt mean its fair as much as it's something their willing to go through as a means to an end. Most pro gamers are closer to infants than adults these days. Many are still technically children anyways but treated and put on shedules MOST ADULTS dont even want to go through. KeSPA benefits off of them without paying them. Kinda seems messed up, but hey if you're cool with that then fine. I would just rather pay the players that make it possible for the entire esport to generate some money and exist. KeSPA can just burnout kids before they even start college constantly until they find one they can market and benefit from.
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5003 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:47 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:23 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:13 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable? Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do. I choose to volunteer a lot of my time on TeamLiquid. I am not paid. Suppose that I go a step further, and I choose to translate 40 hours a week. I agree to do this. I am not paid. I make a contract with the admin, saying that if I don't translate 40 hours a week, I can be banned. I agree to it. Is that not fair? What excuses am I making? The point is simple. If you don't like the conditions, you don't do it. Simple as that. Don't try to baby the progamers by going "aww how sad", and undermine their decisions by reminding them how "bad" it is. They're the one who agreed. Yes, as long as they're not coerced to make an agreement, I can assume that any agreement is fair. When you say "they're just hoping they can make it big", isn't that just gambling? It is absolutely okay. Just like it's okay for me to volunteer and not get paid wherever I want, it's okay for anyone else to spend their time at a progame team 13 hours a day to try to make it to the big leagues. They love the game, so they're more willing to take price cuts. Why do you think plumbers are paid so much? No one wants to do it. Similarly, if there's a lot of people who wants to do it, wage goes down, conditions remain stagnant. Even then there's an army of people wanting to do this. Stop infantalizing progamers. They have made their decisions, we respect them for accepting such conditions and hope that they improve, but don't try to pretend like they didn't agree to it or something. No its not ok, because pro starcraft is the only "pro sport" that doesnt doesnt pay its "farm league" players. Just because someone agrees to something doesnt mean its fair as much as it's something their willing to go through as a means to an end. Most pro gamers are closer to infants than adults these days. Many are still technically children anyways but treated and put on shedules MOST ADULTS dont even want to go through. KeSPA benefits off of them without paying them. Kinda seems messed up, but hey if you're cool with that then fine. I would just rather pay the players that make it possible for the entire esport to generate some money and exist. KeSPA can just burnout kids before they even start college constantly until they find one they can market and benefit from.
They pay for room and boarding and food. Sounds like payment to me.
Can you define what you mean by "fair" cause I don't really get it and I bet it's really idealistic.
What's messed up about it? You need to explain. I don't see anything wrong with the picture at all.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be. Edit: relatedly: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote: Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money.. It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote: So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore! No, because people who watch both Korean (PL/OSL/MSL) and foreigner (TSL, as well as other tournaments) have different expectations, depending on what they're tuning into.
I enjoyed what I saw of TSL2 because I knew these players were the best of the Americas, Europe, and Taiwan (added because of Sen). They bring prestige to the game.
Just because some people would rather see someone like Stork than Rock in the Proleague, doesn't mean they don't appreciate individuals you describe as "hobby" players - top players outside of Korea.
On June 01 2010 04:32 Bill307 wrote:I have to respect the balls it takes to dis the TSL on TLnet. So you guys expect nothing less than 13-hours-a-day-pros when you want to enjoy a game of SC? Well, to each his own. You shouldn't put words into people's mouths. No one said they expected TSL participants to have the same level of play as Korean SL participants.
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On June 01 2010 07:53 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:47 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:23 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:13 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable? Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do. I choose to volunteer a lot of my time on TeamLiquid. I am not paid. Suppose that I go a step further, and I choose to translate 40 hours a week. I agree to do this. I am not paid. I make a contract with the admin, saying that if I don't translate 40 hours a week, I can be banned. I agree to it. Is that not fair? What excuses am I making? The point is simple. If you don't like the conditions, you don't do it. Simple as that. Don't try to baby the progamers by going "aww how sad", and undermine their decisions by reminding them how "bad" it is. They're the one who agreed. Yes, as long as they're not coerced to make an agreement, I can assume that any agreement is fair. When you say "they're just hoping they can make it big", isn't that just gambling? It is absolutely okay. Just like it's okay for me to volunteer and not get paid wherever I want, it's okay for anyone else to spend their time at a progame team 13 hours a day to try to make it to the big leagues. They love the game, so they're more willing to take price cuts. Why do you think plumbers are paid so much? No one wants to do it. Similarly, if there's a lot of people who wants to do it, wage goes down, conditions remain stagnant. Even then there's an army of people wanting to do this. Stop infantalizing progamers. They have made their decisions, we respect them for accepting such conditions and hope that they improve, but don't try to pretend like they didn't agree to it or something. No its not ok, because pro starcraft is the only "pro sport" that doesnt doesnt pay its "farm league" players. Just because someone agrees to something doesnt mean its fair as much as it's something their willing to go through as a means to an end. Most pro gamers are closer to infants than adults these days. Many are still technically children anyways but treated and put on shedules MOST ADULTS dont even want to go through. KeSPA benefits off of them without paying them. Kinda seems messed up, but hey if you're cool with that then fine. I would just rather pay the players that make it possible for the entire esport to generate some money and exist. KeSPA can just burnout kids before they even start college constantly until they find one they can market and benefit from. They pay for room and boarding and food. Sounds like payment to me. Can you define what you mean by "fair" cause I don't really get it and I bet it's really idealistic. What's messed up about it? You need to explain. I don't see anything wrong with the picture at all.
It's child labor in many cases for one, two paying for bare necessities still doesnt compensate 13 hour work days when they have no wages. Doesnt seem fair to me, then again I wonder if you think living in a tiny place with many other people without getting paid is the high life. Seems like a shady under the table business model. No real contracts, just feeding off of a kid's hopes to be pro gamers and not even writing them a check for all the hours they practice helping others get better as well. I'd be fine if they got minimum wages or enough to live off of as they would be getting money they could use for any purpose as long as they practiced enough. It's not like pro baseball prospects live the good life unless they're high draft picks. The point is as long as you're in their system you get paid. You cant have it both ways as KeSPA.
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5003 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:00 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:53 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:47 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:23 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:13 Serpico wrote:On June 01 2010 07:10 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Well you do pay them less than minimum wages in minor leagues! Better housing? Fair contracts? Huh? If it wasn't fair they wouldn't have signed it. Can you explain to me why they would agree to something they wouldn't find acceptable? Because they love the game they're willing to do certain things they wouldnt in normal circumstances....and in the minor leagues you get enough for living expenses and can get more money without even being in the pros by going to AAA and redoing your contract. Why do you think just because someone agrees to something that they think it's fair? They probably are just hoping they can make it big and not have to worry about the unfair contract. Stop trying to make excuses for why its ok to not even get paid for what they do. I choose to volunteer a lot of my time on TeamLiquid. I am not paid. Suppose that I go a step further, and I choose to translate 40 hours a week. I agree to do this. I am not paid. I make a contract with the admin, saying that if I don't translate 40 hours a week, I can be banned. I agree to it. Is that not fair? What excuses am I making? The point is simple. If you don't like the conditions, you don't do it. Simple as that. Don't try to baby the progamers by going "aww how sad", and undermine their decisions by reminding them how "bad" it is. They're the one who agreed. Yes, as long as they're not coerced to make an agreement, I can assume that any agreement is fair. When you say "they're just hoping they can make it big", isn't that just gambling? It is absolutely okay. Just like it's okay for me to volunteer and not get paid wherever I want, it's okay for anyone else to spend their time at a progame team 13 hours a day to try to make it to the big leagues. They love the game, so they're more willing to take price cuts. Why do you think plumbers are paid so much? No one wants to do it. Similarly, if there's a lot of people who wants to do it, wage goes down, conditions remain stagnant. Even then there's an army of people wanting to do this. Stop infantalizing progamers. They have made their decisions, we respect them for accepting such conditions and hope that they improve, but don't try to pretend like they didn't agree to it or something. No its not ok, because pro starcraft is the only "pro sport" that doesnt doesnt pay its "farm league" players. Just because someone agrees to something doesnt mean its fair as much as it's something their willing to go through as a means to an end. Most pro gamers are closer to infants than adults these days. Many are still technically children anyways but treated and put on shedules MOST ADULTS dont even want to go through. KeSPA benefits off of them without paying them. Kinda seems messed up, but hey if you're cool with that then fine. I would just rather pay the players that make it possible for the entire esport to generate some money and exist. KeSPA can just burnout kids before they even start college constantly until they find one they can market and benefit from. They pay for room and boarding and food. Sounds like payment to me. Can you define what you mean by "fair" cause I don't really get it and I bet it's really idealistic. What's messed up about it? You need to explain. I don't see anything wrong with the picture at all. It's child labor in many cases for one, two paying for bare necessities still doesnt compensate 13 hour work days when they have no wages. Doesnt seem fair to me, then again I wonder if you think living in a tiny place with many other people without getting paid is the high life.
Child Labor? Sounds more like kids going to school so they can learn about starcraft. Yeah, it's a bit extreme, but they're only there so that they can learn, prove themselves, and rise up, much like you do in Highschool for colleges. Hell, in College, we PAY for that opportunity... unlike progaming houses where people can learn about starcraft for free! Hell, I bet if you start charging people so that they can be in B Teams, I bet there will be people who will do it.
Why should they get paid more than they do? They don't produce anything of value! What do the B teamers do? They don't play in proleague or individual teams, they don't make any value for the team other than serve as practice partners. If you dig up trenches and fill them back in for 13 hours for 5 days a week do you deserve to be paid? No.
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On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Two things:
1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action?
The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one.
2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was.
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If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that.
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5003 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:06 xBillehx wrote: If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that.
I don't think it has to do with Blizzard wanting to audit them, it's the Blizzard having the "right" to audit them that bothers them.
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On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. Pardon my double post (in case theres no new one before I post this), but to answer your second paragraph.
Since Blizzard gave the rights to GOM, it's now a Korean company that KeSPA would be infringing on. It's no longer American versus Korean law. The Korean government has an obligation to protect the rights of GOM against KeSPA, and the Korean Copyright Laws can now be used to that effect.
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On June 01 2010 08:08 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:06 xBillehx wrote: If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that. I don't think it has to do with Blizzard wanting to audit them, it's the Blizzard having the "right" to audit them that bothers them. But why would it bother them if theres nothing to hide? It's literally no trouble at all and would merely re-enforce to the fans that KeSPA is non-profit if it truly is. It just doesn't make sense for that to be one of the "outrageous" claims they disagree with while playing off the face of it being non-profit.
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5003 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:11 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:08 Milkis wrote:On June 01 2010 08:06 xBillehx wrote: If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that. I don't think it has to do with Blizzard wanting to audit them, it's the Blizzard having the "right" to audit them that bothers them. But why would it bother them if theres nothing to hide? It's literally no trouble at all and would merely re-enforce to the fans that KeSPA is non-profit if it truly is. It just doesn't make sense for that to be one of the "outrageous" claims they disagree with while playing off the face of it being non-profit.
It's not about anything to hide.
It's like this. Suppose that, Maple Story finally takes off as an eSports in United States. In fact, people love it so much that an entire culture develops around it. Furthermore, the United States Government backs and approves of an organization created to promote Maple Story in the United States as a cultural entity. All the major sponsors and companies involved in Maple Story, except for Nexon, join the board of this organization.
Nexon then comes in, and demands rights to audit them at any given point. You think this organization, backed by the US government and major US companies will allow that to happen?
It's about "rights", rather than what's actually there. Korean Sponsors don't want American companies to be able to nudge into their finances whenever the companies feel like it. It's ridiculous.
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On June 01 2010 08:06 xBillehx wrote: If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that.
nonprofit doesn't mean there is no cash flow. If Blizzard can just audit everything and see a big cash flow they could demand a higher royalty fee, which means less money into esports scene, which means even worse treatment of progamers. Kespa may not care about progamers, but Blizzard even cares less about them. At least Kespa is interested in developing a successful scene out of its own interest, whereas Blizzard just wants money.
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So is blizzard being greedy here? I think kespa paying blizzard some money is fair enough.
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On June 01 2010 08:22 iloahz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:06 xBillehx wrote: If KeSPA is truely non-profit like they claim to be, why did they refuse to agree to Blizzard wanting to audit them? If they are non-profit, the audit will only verify that. nonprofit doesn't mean there is no cash flow. If Blizzard can just audit everything and see a big cash flow they could demand a higher royalty fee, which means less money into esports scene, which means even worse treatment of progamers. Kespa may not care about progamers, but Blizzard even cares less about them. At least Kespa is interested in developing a successful scene out of its own interest, whereas Blizzard just wants money.
This is why we cannot have Blizzard running the eSports scene. It will fail once it stops being profitable. And given their inexperience in eSports, they will likely stumble in the beginning -- putting the entire sport into jeopardy. Greed will kill the only thing going for eSports right now.
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On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game?
Where will the money come from? Is blizzard going to pay these guys the money? If blizzard does pay bteamers the money and pay the A teamers and the staff their salaries with food and housing, then I will support blizzard 100%. If blizzard really wants an esports scene, it should speak with its money, not with its words. When I talk money, I'm not saying some random 50k tournament. I'm talking about investing millions of dollars each year into the players and the staff to bring us Esports.
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On June 01 2010 07:28 professorjoak wrote: KeSPA has done big things for Korea, but as long as they're running the show they'll contribute nothing to esports outside of Korea.
On June 01 2010 07:41 Trozz wrote: "Korea eSports" It's never "Worldwide eSports" They are doomed to fail.
why should KeSPA(Korean e-Sports Players Association) be responsible for a esports in a foreign country?
If Esport developed well if any country, sooner or later, there will be a (X)eSPA in that country.
and I think that (X)eSPA will win, even if (X)espa is disbanded, as long as the sponsers play a major role in Esports, they will form a new organisation doing the same thing as (X)espa,that is, protecting their interest.
KeSPA's interest is to have more viewer on their matches so that sponser have a better exposure in the public , Blizzard's goal is to make more money as any other company does.
if I have to choose, KeSPA is clearly the lesser evil.
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I know I'm not the only one here who is conflicted over this but I absolutely feel like I have to decide on the lesser of two evils, and at this point I feel like that would be KeSPA...
Now this is certainly not over. I am very skeptical that the entire existing framework of proleague and the individual leagues will be destroyed by all this, I think it is more likely that this is a tactic by Blizzard to try to get some compensation out of KeSPA for the right to keep doing it. If Blizzard asks for too much it is entirely likely that KeSPA will just say "screw you we're going to continue anyway", and if we are talking exclusively about SC1 then I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that whatever governing bodies exist to handle these things in Korea just let them do it, whether by passively turning a blind eye to Blizzards complaints, or actively ruling against them.
If we are talking about SC2 and GOM having rights to show it and the like the waters are a little murkier. But I do think ultimately it comes down to Blizzard taking a calculated risk. It is possible that they are even thinking that the more they demand originally the more they will be seen to be giving up if/when a compromise is reached. I think that ultimately, in Korea, Blizzard will have to acknowledge that there are powerful people working against them and they are unlikely to get as much control as they likely will (rightly or wrongly) in the rest of the world.
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On June 01 2010 08:10 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. Pardon my double post (in case theres no new one before I post this), but to answer your second paragraph. Since Blizzard gave the rights to GOM, it's now a Korean company that KeSPA would be infringing on. It's no longer American versus Korean law. The Korean government has an obligation to protect the rights of GOM against KeSPA, and the Korean Copyright Laws can now be used to that effect.
This isn't correct at all. Just the fact two companies made an agreement does not make that agreement legal in and of itself. Realistically, Korean courts could easily strike it down by saying Blizzard is trying to sell something that it doesn't actually own.
Actually, I'd take this as far as saying that I'm upset KeSPA is even willing to pay royalties in this situation. Not only will siphoning money out of the scene directly impact the players in a negative fashion, it's also bad for eSports in the long run. Giving the developer rights to royalties is unrealistic given all the other benefits they gather from having their game as a popular eSport, and means it's going to be that much harder to eventually make a solid foundation for eSports to stand on.
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On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was.
1. I'm sure that progamers practicing 13 hours a day, every day, against the same people on a Korean server will be a pretty big tell. As for the actual televised matches, it is possible that if they switched identifiers every time for every game that Blizzard couldn't keep up with them. But I doubt they'd try to keep that up for long.
I agree that the actions of the Korean government in the past has favored KeSPA. But KeSPA capitalized on the legal ambiguity that existed before this debacle began. As I said before, it's entirely possible that KeSPA wins the SCBW argument. But if it's written right into the EULA for SC2 that they can't broadcast without Blizzard's permission, the Korean government would have to invalidate the EULA for every copy of SC2 sold in Korea to allow KeSPA to continue, sending the message to every international company working in Korea that it can break contracts willy-nilly. Not happening.
2. I agree.
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If its just a matter of GOM playing binding arbiter between kespa and blizzard then I think things could go very smoothly from here. If GOM goes for the power play, things will stay ugly.
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I like starcraft and most stuff blizz makes but this verison of blizzard is full of Bull s***
kespa wrong on there part to but blizz is greedy and they really do not care about the people that made there game popular with out us fans and players a like who would care about starcraft.
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Remember, blizzard gave GOMtv to broadcast, but if gomtv allows other companies to broadcast for a fee, this will be possible. So maybe we could be seeing a gomtv kespa deal for korea specifically if gomtv offers it. It's too early. Give it a year.
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On May 31 2010 20:08 Kuja900 wrote: Poetic justice imo for KeSPA shutting down the GOM leagues by making their teams refuse to play, if it wasnt for that I'd side with KeSPA but I just cannot forgive that.
instead you would be rather content with blizzards attempt to destroy the BW scene? no way, kespa are fucking douchebags no doubt, but blizzard is just destroying the scale of that word. its like in top gear and the cockometer. kespa is like the mercedez AMG (high on the meter in the red level of cock) blizzard[activition] is like the BMW M3, broke the machine because of its inability to measure how much of a cock they are being.
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On June 01 2010 07:28 professorjoak wrote: KeSPA has done big things for Korea, but as long as they're running the show they'll contribute nothing to esports outside of Korea.
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On June 01 2010 10:07 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:28 professorjoak wrote: KeSPA has done big things for Korea, but as long as they're running the show they'll contribute nothing to esports outside of Korea. why should K(orean)eSPA contribute to esport outside of Korea?
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No really? Why state the obvious. It's 'Korean' e-Sports fill-in-the-blank." That isn't part of their mandate bud. If you want to compete in their leagues then you have to play by their rules whether you like it or not.
This is only one sector and it is arguably the biggest.
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I cannot believe KeSPA actually compared Starcraft to an Adidas' soccer ball. If I'm one of the makers of Starcraft I would be seriously hurt and stop negotiating right away.
KeSPA has been arrogant for too long, they need to realize their position now. If Adidas has any unreasonable demand to FIFA regarding the right to use their balls, FIFA will simply say fuck you and switch to Nike or a million ball producers around. KeSPA just doesn't have that fucking option! They need to realize that if they TRULY "work for the players and the fans", they are the one that should step back in this fight.
Which is sadly probably not going to happen, given KeSPA's history of incompetency, hypocrisy and short-sighted vision.
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On June 01 2010 08:59 Drunken Argument wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. 1. I'm sure that progamers practicing 13 hours a day, every day, against the same people on a Korean server will be a pretty big tell. As for the actual televised matches, it is possible that if they switched identifiers every time for every game that Blizzard couldn't keep up with them. But I doubt they'd try to keep that up for long.
I know we are going off in to a bit of a tangent, but the issue of account names can easily be bypassed. They can easily buy new copies of the game and create fresh accounts used for showmatches only.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol
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Maybe, just maybe, Blizzard and GOM TV will allow Ongamenet and MBC to continue to broadcast BW after current Proleague season is over.
EDIT:
On June 01 2010 10:31 Rekrul wrote: lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol Does "progaming" include the survival of professional Broodwar?
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On June 01 2010 10:31 Rekrul wrote: lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol Yep I wonder why so many people came to that conclusion so quickly.
Actually, up to this point, the side that has clear proven record that they could 'ruin' programing is KeSPA.
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On June 01 2010 08:30 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 07:03 Serpico wrote: I simply want players to have better housing and more pay with fair contracts. You shouldnt be working 10 hours a day and not get paid, regardless of skill. It's like having a baseball farmleague and saying "You're in AA not the majors so we wont pay you." The hell is that? So you want free labor and to just completely abuse kids because they like a game? Where will the money come from? Is blizzard going to pay these guys the money? If blizzard does pay bteamers the money and pay the A teamers and the staff their salaries with food and housing, then I will support blizzard 100%. If blizzard really wants an esports scene, it should speak with its money, not with its words. When I talk money, I'm not saying some random 50k tournament. I'm talking about investing millions of dollars each year into the players and the staff to bring us Esports.
I'd like to see blizzard pay them yes, I want it setup where the more popular and competitive pro SC gets, the more money they AND the players make. That would be perfect.
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On June 01 2010 10:39 domane wrote: Maybe, just maybe, Blizzard and GOM TV will allow Ongamenet and MBC to continue to broadcast BW after current Proleague season is over. Of course, why wouldn't they? As so many have pointed out how Blizzard does everything "just for money", as long as OGN and MBC could come up with a royalty deal with Blizzard/GOM, I don't see why Blizzard would stop any league.
Fans will lose nothing, OGN/MBC will lose nothing (they can use the money paying KeSPA for broadcasting rights to pay Blizzard). And as long as the leagues are still watched, there will be sponsors, and thus sponsored teams.
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If it did come down to the progame teams being unable to play matches, i wonder what would happen with all the player contracts. I mean, if Bisu or whoever has a contract to play SC1 for SKT for X amount of money and X amount of time, are they legally obligated to pay him even though they cant show the matches on tv etc?
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Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup?
This analogy would be correct if Adidas invented the game of soccer/football. The soccer balls, in this metaphor, would be more closely related to the mice and keyboards the players use.
I definitely have to side with Blizzard on the topic intellectual property but I don't feel kespa should be treated so harshly if they genuinely tried to negotiate peacefully with blizzard, which I somewhat doubt was the case.
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On June 01 2010 10:31 Rekrul wrote: lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol
With Activision and Kotick having part of the say...I don't know. It's like picking between getting hit by a sledgehammer or a baseball bat.
Both are pretty damn close in the amount of pain they inflict, and both are not going to be the least bit pleasant to endure.
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On June 01 2010 10:31 Rekrul wrote: lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol
The burden of proof is on them. How on earth are we to know how they would even run eSports? Are they going to put up the money necessary to run things? Are they going to find new sponsors (the current sponsors have already made a statement of solidarity against Blizzard on this)? On one side we have an established eSports scene, and on the other we have a company reaching well beyond anything they're used to doing. That is, an organization whose very livelihood relies on eSports' success... versus a game designer who is concerned about selling their next product. You'd be insane to trust Blizzard with the future of progaming. It's in their best interests to make sure older games die and newer ones succeed them, regardless of actual quality.
At best, they're going to let Gretech try to shoulder the load, and in the unlikely event they succeed Blizzard will then attempt to reap the rewards for themselves. This isn't speculation - it's clear from the demands Blizzard was making, as well as from KeSPA's statement that they were willing to actually pay royalties (which wasn't 'enough').
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People like me, who would rather have blizzard are not expecting blizzard to pay for pro-gaming houses. Players getting owned is just an argument against this reoccurring idea that KeSPA has done a flawless job with progaming, and the status quo is fine. It's not.
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On June 01 2010 10:22 tenpromicro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 08:59 Drunken Argument wrote:On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
But they won't be able to practice. EACH programmer would need a new account every one to two days in order to keep their schedules. That's thousands of copies of SC2. Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. 1. I'm sure that progamers practicing 13 hours a day, every day, against the same people on a Korean server will be a pretty big tell. As for the actual televised matches, it is possible that if they switched identifiers every time for every game that Blizzard couldn't keep up with them. But I doubt they'd try to keep that up for long. I know we are going off in to a bit of a tangent, but the issue of account names can easily be bypassed. They can easily buy new copies of the game and create fresh accounts used for showmatches only.
But they wouldn't be able to practice. Each progamer would need a new account every 24-48 hours, or however long it took Blizzard to ban them. Thats thousands of SC2 accounts plus the showmatch accounts, with new showmatch accounts needed for each match (since they can't hide their names in the broadcast). It's not economically viable.
Edit: spelling error
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On June 01 2010 11:07 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 10:31 Rekrul wrote: lots of foolish discussion in this thread
u guys are morons if you think blizzard is going to 'ruin' progaming etc
it will be fine lol The burden of proof is on them. How on earth are we to know how they would even run eSports? Are they going to put up the money necessary to run things? Are they going to find new sponsors (the current sponsors have already made a statement of solidarity against Blizzard on this)? On one side we have an established eSports scene, and on the other we have a company reaching well beyond anything they're used to doing. That is, an organization whose very livelihood relies on eSports' success... versus a game designer who is concerned about selling their next product. You'd be insane to trust Blizzard with the future of progaming. It's in their best interests to make sure older games die and newer ones succeed them, regardless of actual quality. At best, they're going to let Gretech try to shoulder the load, and in the unlikely event they succeed Blizzard will then attempt to reap the rewards for themselves. This isn't speculation - it's clear from the demands Blizzard was making, as well as from KeSPA's statement that they were willing to actually pay royalties (which wasn't 'enough'). As long as Blizzard leaves the same people (all eSport people minus KeSPA people) stay where they are - things will be fine
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On June 01 2010 11:16 keV. wrote: People like me, who would rather have blizzard are not expecting blizzard to pay for pro-gaming houses. Players getting owned is just an argument against this reoccurring idea that KeSPA has done a flawless job with progaming, and the status quo is fine. It's not. Actually, both sides of the issue have expressed their dismay, over the possibility of "players getting owned". That is a multi-purpose argument.
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KeSPA shuts down GOM and now Blizzard & GOM shuts down KeSPA, how fitting.
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Why do people think blizzard has any desire to run esports? All they have stated to this point is they want to be paid for their intellectual property, not that they want to have complete control of the scene (this was only alleged by KeSPA, which may or may not be true). From a pure business perspective, it makes no sense for blizzard to run korean esports, and the fact that they sold the rights to GOM proves they have no desire to set up and run the scene. Instead, that responsibility falls to GOM.
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On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life
Data entry :D.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
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On June 01 2010 11:18 Drunken Argument wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 10:22 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 08:59 Drunken Argument wrote:On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
But they won't be able to practice. EACH programmer would need a new account every one to two days in order to keep their schedules. That's thousands of copies of SC2. Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. 1. I'm sure that progamers practicing 13 hours a day, every day, against the same people on a Korean server will be a pretty big tell. As for the actual televised matches, it is possible that if they switched identifiers every time for every game that Blizzard couldn't keep up with them. But I doubt they'd try to keep that up for long. I know we are going off in to a bit of a tangent, but the issue of account names can easily be bypassed. They can easily buy new copies of the game and create fresh accounts used for showmatches only. But they wouldn't be able to practice. Each progamer would need a new account every 24-48 hours, or however long it took Blizzard to ban them. Thats thousands of SC2 accounts plus the showmatch accounts, with new showmatch accounts needed for each match (since they can't hide their names in the broadcast). It's not economically viable. Edit: spelling error
blizz isn't gonna randomly ban every account that palys more than 12 hours a day.
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we all must think that Korea loves SC:BW and kespa .. Remember the PC bang?? yeah thats almost the reason why Korea became great. and BW was a very big factor in making this happen
If this is goes to the Korean Courts, Blizzard IMO wont stand a chance. simple as that. Its not like Blizzard has puppets in the Korean Gov't or Justice dept. its quite the opposite.
Blizzard cant do shit in korean courts because Korean gov't/justice will be pressured by the people. and seeing how ACTIVISION/blizzard is acting, i dont think they will get sympathy from korea and its culture.
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two things make me laugh.
Kepsa saying they are doing it for the fans.
Blizzard saying they are doing it for thier IP rights.
hah.
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Blizzard doesn't need to care, they have the whole world.
GOM will get a more than fair price, but they live there. They can't act as manner as they'd like, or kespa might deserve.
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What is the technical definition of Broadcasting rights. Because don't all these people on the right-> who stream their games and tournaments technically fall into that category?
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Wow this thread has been open less than a day and already over 38 000 views. Such a hot topic. Hope these two giants can work it out. If it goes to the Korean courts though I think Blizzard will get 3-0'ed. The courts are not going to support this gaming behemoth against their own companies.
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Kespa is just lying all over the place. There really isn't any reason to believe them. IIRC they really never agreed to want to pay royalties, and now they are claiming they said they would. They said there was no NDA, and there really is.
Kespa saying they are not really doing it for the money is disingenuous. The make up of the association, (how the teams and companies themselves make up kespa) virtually guarantee's that they are in it for the money. Do you really thing that Samsung cares about starcraft? Or CJ? The companies could care less about a stupid game. Except it gives them popularity and exposure in asian markets and increased market share in their respective markets. You can tell they arn't in it for the love of starcraft by how they treat B-teamers etc. They arn't the ones winning games // getting exposure so they arn't getting anything. Except they might be the next jaedong or flash so they have to be given /something/. So room and board + food. Not technically major expenses since they already own the buildings and the food they get is kinda.....crappy.
Pretty much, Kespa has shown a distinct lack of honesty and credibility.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote: I think both sides are completely full of shit. Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. KeSPA is used to having complete and utter control of the Starcraft scene, and there is no way they are going to give that up without a fight. The only problem is that they are trying to bluff their way to victory against an opponent who has every single card.
gg KeSPA, either figure out a way to keep Blizz happy enough that they let you continue to do what you do with minimal interruption (Translation: pay a shit ton), or wait and hope that blizz sponsored esports fails so you can step back in on the cheap.
I agree. Both companies probably were never serious in the offers they made each other. Now it's about who can spin this the best way and win public support. There is no way that Blizzard will win this case in a Korean Court of Law but on the other side if SC2 replaces SCBW in terms of popularity then KeSPA is finished. So it all comes down to the next year or two. Interesting to see who will win. I think both companies are bluffing. If it comes down to it this is like a arm-wrestle. But I can't see either side winning without compromise, which ultimately I think will happen. KeSPA will pay a fair amount as opposed to a "modest" amount and Blizzard will stop being money-grabbing whores if SC2 fails as an esports.
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only time will tell how this will pan out. i really am curious as to what direction activision-blizzard takes gomtv
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On June 01 2010 13:33 dogabutila wrote: Kespa is just lying all over the place. There really isn't any reason to believe them. IIRC they really never agreed to want to pay royalties, and now they are claiming they said they would. They said there was no NDA, and there really is.
Kespa saying they are not really doing it for the money is disingenuous. The make up of the association, (how the teams and companies themselves make up kespa) virtually guarantee's that they are in it for the money. Do you really thing that Samsung cares about starcraft? Or CJ? The companies could care less about a stupid game. Except it gives them popularity and exposure in asian markets and increased market share in their respective markets. You can tell they arn't in it for the love of starcraft by how they treat B-teamers etc. They arn't the ones winning games // getting exposure so they arn't getting anything. Except they might be the next jaedong or flash so they have to be given /something/. So room and board + food. Not technically major expenses since they already own the buildings and the food they get is kinda.....crappy.
Pretty much, Kespa has shown a distinct lack of honesty and credibility.
It seems that the NDA issue was a misunderstanding, not some kind of lame trick KeSPA was trying to pull.
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On June 01 2010 12:18 tenpromicro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 11:18 Drunken Argument wrote:On June 01 2010 10:22 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 08:59 Drunken Argument wrote:On June 01 2010 08:06 tenpromicro wrote:On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
But they won't be able to practice. EACH programmer would need a new account every one to two days in order to keep their schedules. That's thousands of copies of SC2. Two things: 1. If KeSPA doesn't release the names of the accounts on BNet 2.0, how can Blizzard find out what the account names are? For example, if the games were broadcasted 30 minutes after the actual matches with the account names edited out, what is Blizzard's course of action? The Korean government favors KeSPA. The reason why Blizzard couldn't sue for SC1 rights in Korea was because the Korean government told them to just deal with KeSPA. If Blizzard tries to sue in Korea again--even with their new contract with GOM-- what makes you think that the Korean government will enforce any sort of judgment on KeSPA? The Korean government spends a fair amount of time in the development of eSports and gaming in general because it is a big part of their economy. It is highly doubtful that they will allow Blizzard to just swoop in and swipe the sport off their feet and bring it back to square one. 2. No one is saying that Blizzard's involvement is going to be the end of eSports. It's just going to be the end of eSports as we know it. It's just going to take a bit of time to get it back to what it previously was. 1. I'm sure that progamers practicing 13 hours a day, every day, against the same people on a Korean server will be a pretty big tell. As for the actual televised matches, it is possible that if they switched identifiers every time for every game that Blizzard couldn't keep up with them. But I doubt they'd try to keep that up for long. I know we are going off in to a bit of a tangent, but the issue of account names can easily be bypassed. They can easily buy new copies of the game and create fresh accounts used for showmatches only. But they wouldn't be able to practice. Each progamer would need a new account every 24-48 hours, or however long it took Blizzard to ban them. Thats thousands of SC2 accounts plus the showmatch accounts, with new showmatch accounts needed for each match (since they can't hide their names in the broadcast). It's not economically viable. Edit: spelling error blizz isn't gonna randomly ban every account that palys more than 12 hours a day.
Randomly? No. Established pattern? Sure.
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you would think that broadcasting sc would actually boost the success of starcraft and would be an win-win situation.
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On June 01 2010 11:47 Two_DoWn wrote: Why do people think blizzard has any desire to run esports? All they have stated to this point is they want to be paid for their intellectual property, not that they want to have complete control of the scene (this was only alleged by KeSPA, which may or may not be true). From a pure business perspective, it makes no sense for blizzard to run korean esports, and the fact that they sold the rights to GOM proves they have no desire to set up and run the scene. Instead, that responsibility falls to GOM.
We know they have a desire to run esports because of the way they are setting up Bnet 2.0 and because of their new found recent dislike of Kespa.
The way they are setting up Bnet 2.0 (no lan, accounts tied to everything, etc) screams complete control. To me it seems the only reason they are getting involved with GOM is to have some sort of leverage and respectability in Korea, but I'm not sure how that will work out. And that leaves us with Kespa, who brings up a good point. Why did Blizzard wait until NOW? The only possible answer to me in because SC2 is coming out and they want complete control of the esports scene.
I don't know which side is lying more, but if everything I've heard from Blizzard and Kespa is true (which is still up in the air of course), than I think Blizzard is fucked up more in this case, regardless of how fucked up Kespa has been in the past.
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On June 01 2010 15:16 StarMasterX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 11:47 Two_DoWn wrote: Why do people think blizzard has any desire to run esports? All they have stated to this point is they want to be paid for their intellectual property, not that they want to have complete control of the scene (this was only alleged by KeSPA, which may or may not be true). From a pure business perspective, it makes no sense for blizzard to run korean esports, and the fact that they sold the rights to GOM proves they have no desire to set up and run the scene. Instead, that responsibility falls to GOM. The way they are setting up Bnet 2.0 (no lan, accounts tied to everything, etc) screams complete control. To me it seems the only reason they are getting involved with GOM is to have some sort of leverage and respectability in Korea, but I'm not sure how that will work out. And that leaves us with Kespa, who brings up a good point. Why did Blizzard wait until NOW? The only possible answer to me in because SC2 is coming out and they want complete control of the esports scene.
also note the fact that kespa has already been doing this for years now. and like kespa said, e-Sport, or any sport for that matter, isn't owned by any company and regarding with the issue of rights. If blizzard fought this battle in the korean court (which is GOING to be the case), you have to understand that the korean gov't and the companies somehow owe the organization that made e-sport because it was a catalyst for the PCbang which made Korea it is today.
i just dont see how blizzard can win this battle for rights in enemy soil where they are the ones who attacks the country/culture that made them big famous, not just money.
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I would just hope SC1 has a longer broadcast life, give SC2 a few years before it grows to a massive competition and corporate monies flow in.
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On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life
I don't think they actually drop out of all their schooling. I would at least think they have a tutor or something. There is nothing stopping them from going to a college either. Even if it is just an online one. There was an article about Jaedong doing it.
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On June 01 2010 16:19 Mallard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life I don't think they actually drop out of all their schooling. I would at least think they have a tutor or something. There is nothing stopping them from going to a college either. Even if it is just an online one. There was an article about Jaedong doing it.
That was just to cover JD's conscription.
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Man both sides seem like bs lol. Anyway, so does anyone know what happens if Kespa decides to keep running after August? Blizzard can't actually shut them down without bringing them to court right? Court things take months or years sometimes don't they, and during the time Kespa could probably still be running starcraft leagues until theya re deemed illegal.
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yea this is really messed up =[
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They should really get a third party to negotiate. I don't think they'll be able to work anything out amongst themselves.
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Blizzard is a completely different company from 10 years ago. They can't seem to make any new good games and they also have turned insanely greedy.
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Can anyone just give me a 1-2 sentence summary? My english isn't that fluent to read such a long and fluent draft. Thanks!
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Activision made them greedy because Bobby Kotick is the anti-christ of gaming. Blizzards developers and creators want the game to do well, and it will. As I see it now, Kespa was just a big monopoly anyway and Blizzard wanted to be in their spot. I don't think Gomtv will succeed as well as well as Kespa, but Blizzard stands to make money anyway and Kespa needs SC. I just hope we get some Sc2 tournaments in Korea. As long as SC2 sells and we get some good games, I'm down for whatever change. In the end, they are both money grubbing.
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lol @ those saying free gaming 12 hours a day is good, i do hope you are at a sensible age to say this.
On June 01 2010 16:19 Mallard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 00:01 Nade wrote: So start at age, lets say, 16, you start pro gaming training, 12 hours per day for like 8 years down the road and suddenly brood war died, what skills do you have? your 500 APM obviously will bring you further in life I don't think they actually drop out of all their schooling. I would at least think they have a tutor or something. There is nothing stopping them from going to a college either. Even if it is just an online one. There was an article about Jaedong doing it.
12 hours of training per day, 2 hour breaks(breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper) 8 hours of sleep is needed. you have 2 hours spare per day. How do you really have time to study? \
Don't ever think KeSPA is a charity for e-sports, cause even charity organization tends to cheat. I remember reading the post saying if KeSPA is earning profit why don't they improve living condition of the players. Now why don't they keep the money for them self for more under table profits you won't ever know.
Do note that blizzard did know KeSPA was selling broadcasting rights(and to the guy who said KeSPA have broadcasting rights, who gave them?) at year 2007, if KeSPA have settled the issue earlier they won't be such deep shit now.
And why does blizzard need to sponser teams for esports? I don't see valve sponsering fnatic, SK gaming, MYM, EG or wadever for their CS team, like wise blizzard for their WC3 team.
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On June 01 2010 13:20 Subversive wrote: Wow this thread has been open less than a day and already over 38 000 views. Such a hot topic. Hope these two giants can work it out. If it goes to the Korean courts though I think Blizzard will get 3-0'ed. The courts are not going to support this gaming behemoth against their own companies.
Why do people think that in korea, kespa would win just cause there korean? That LAW enforcement don't follow THE LAW and just pick the home team to support? Sorry guys it doesn't work like that if by LAW they see kespa is wrong or right they'd go with the LAW and not home team advantage.
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Maaku you don't know the half of it. Just stop. There is no need for us to repeat ourselves. If you haven't read the thread then you haven't read the thread and any point you try to raise becomes mute.
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While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
- Kespa
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On June 01 2010 19:25 Maaku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 13:20 Subversive wrote: Wow this thread has been open less than a day and already over 38 000 views. Such a hot topic. Hope these two giants can work it out. If it goes to the Korean courts though I think Blizzard will get 3-0'ed. The courts are not going to support this gaming behemoth against their own companies. Why do people think that in korea, kespa would win just cause there korean? That LAW enforcement don't follow THE LAW and just pick the home team to support? Sorry guys it doesn't work like that if by LAW they see kespa is wrong or right they'd go with the LAW and not home team advantage.
you dont even know the korean culture .. or asia for that matter .. also try to look at the history:
kespa helped korea with its PC bang, before that they didn't have great viewership in TVs, they were really pessimist with their economy, and if you have any knowledge about LAW when it comes to asian countries, its about home team advantage.
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On June 01 2010 20:57 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 19:25 Maaku wrote:On June 01 2010 13:20 Subversive wrote: Wow this thread has been open less than a day and already over 38 000 views. Such a hot topic. Hope these two giants can work it out. If it goes to the Korean courts though I think Blizzard will get 3-0'ed. The courts are not going to support this gaming behemoth against their own companies. Why do people think that in korea, kespa would win just cause there korean? That LAW enforcement don't follow THE LAW and just pick the home team to support? Sorry guys it doesn't work like that if by LAW they see kespa is wrong or right they'd go with the LAW and not home team advantage. you dont even know the korean culture .. or asia for that matter .. also try to look at the history: kespa helped korea with its PC bang, before that they didn't have great viewership in TVs, they were really pessimist with their economy, and if you have any knowledge about LAW when it comes to asian countries, its about home team advantage.
/sigh I don't think for one second believe that if its clearly blizzard (not saying they are) in the right then they would lose just cause off home team advantage, Would kinda make the whole law system kinda pointless.
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On June 01 2010 19:51 StarStruck wrote: Maaku you don't know the half of it. Just stop. There is no need for us to repeat ourselves. If you haven't read the thread then you haven't read the thread and any point you try to raise becomes mute.
Tell me how my statement is wrong rather than say ZOMG ITS WRONG, Maybe i don't know half off it but neither does any-one else is this thread hence the discussion.
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What if one day Blizz decide to "take over" tl.net using the same IP right bull****? After all, contents in this site is mostly generated using Blizz IP. If they suceed with Kespa, then there will be no stopping them to take over anything at anytime they want.
Blizz does not want to share with the comunity, they want the whole cake.
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On June 01 2010 21:15 mmdmmd wrote: What if one day Blizz decide to "take over" tl.net using the same IP right bull****? After all, contents in this site is mostly generated using Blizz IP. If they suceed with Kespa, then there will be no stopping them to take over anything at anytime they want.
Blizz does not want to share with the comunity, they want the whole cake.
Would be near enough impossible to do.
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On June 01 2010 21:19 Maaku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 21:15 mmdmmd wrote: What if one day Blizz decide to "take over" tl.net using the same IP right bull****? After all, contents in this site is mostly generated using Blizz IP. If they suceed with Kespa, then there will be no stopping them to take over anything at anytime they want.
Blizz does not want to share with the comunity, they want the whole cake. Would be near enough impossible to do. That's true, but with the same logic, they could ask TL to remove all the vods from the nevake account. I guess they wouldn't make money out of it, so they probably won't, but as soon as that may be in their interest you can say goodbye to nevake youtube account.
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Would be near enough impossible to do. TL is more above the law than kespa in korea???
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I can't read all 28 pages but just want to say after reading that Activision-Blizzard thread and personally being exposed to the.....abortion that is Bnet2.0 my views on blizzard and how they view their fans has changed considerably. I don't know when it happened, but overtime I lost a friend in blizzard.
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I wrote a big rant, but I think what it basically comes down to is:
Fuck you, Blizzard.
It's clear the philosophy is no longer 'by gamers for gamers.' Any gamer would think their game being made into a legitimate sport is more important than making a little more money. If Blizzard takes over eSports, it's no longer legitimate, because eSports will hang in the balance of how long Blizzard feels it's profitable... which isn't exactly reliable.
Imagine Blizzard were just one guy, and KeSPA were just one guy. Blizzard is some budding artist who's really good at what he does, but doesn't really get that much recognition. KeSPA busts his ass helping his friend promote himself and Blizzard becomes insanely famous and rich. Now Blizzard just feels like forgetting about what KeSPA did for him and is going to kick him on the street.
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It seems money rules the whole world...sadly... I mean, it's obvious that Blizzard has tons of money, but they just can't get enough, huh? SC is now more than 10y old, i think it would be better when Bliz concentrates on SC2 and its marketing than seeking for every cent they get pull out from SC because so many people still plays it!
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"Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests."
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life
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lol yeah... KesPA.. not so good at arguing your case.
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On June 01 2010 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 21:19 Maaku wrote:On June 01 2010 21:15 mmdmmd wrote: What if one day Blizz decide to "take over" tl.net using the same IP right bull****? After all, contents in this site is mostly generated using Blizz IP. If they suceed with Kespa, then there will be no stopping them to take over anything at anytime they want.
Blizz does not want to share with the comunity, they want the whole cake. Would be near enough impossible to do. That's true, but with the same logic, they could ask TL to remove all the vods from the nevake account. I guess they wouldn't make money out of it, so they probably won't, but as soon as that may be in their interest you can say goodbye to nevake youtube account. After reading these, I imagined Blizzard as some legion of demons tearing up the village of ESPORTS.
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TL;DR
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 01 2010 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 21:19 Maaku wrote:On June 01 2010 21:15 mmdmmd wrote: What if one day Blizz decide to "take over" tl.net using the same IP right bull****? After all, contents in this site is mostly generated using Blizz IP. If they suceed with Kespa, then there will be no stopping them to take over anything at anytime they want.
Blizz does not want to share with the comunity, they want the whole cake. Would be near enough impossible to do. That's true, but with the same logic, they could ask TL to remove all the vods from the nevake account. I guess they wouldn't make money out of it, so they probably won't, but as soon as that may be in their interest you can say goodbye to nevake youtube account. And that's fokn scary, as it is probably true.
Blizzard only cares about money, so Im with KESPA all the way. Those profit driven corporations give humanity a bad name.
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On June 02 2010 01:21 Marke wrote: TL;DR
Why did you even bother posting this.
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On June 02 2010 01:21 Marke wrote: TL;DR
Thanks for the contribution!
KeSPA is only speaking this way so they can stay in the game.
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KESPA is staying in this game regardless, they are government body and it's up to them to rate the game, and if it's gonna be rated 18+ it will not be a success in Korea and it will suck as esport.
Game is a tool with which you express your skill, Blizzard trying to own a game YOU played, is like manufacturer of a hammer trying to take ownage of a house YOU build with it. How can that sound reasonable to anyone?
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On June 02 2010 02:06 dranjam wrote: KESPA is staying in this game regardless, they are government body and it's up to them to rate the game, and if it's gonna be rated 18+ it will not be a success in Korea and it will suck as esport.
Game is a tool with which you express your skill, Blizzard trying to own a game YOU played, is like manufacturer of a hammer trying to take ownage of a house YOU build with it. How can that sound reasonable to anyone?
No, thats terrible analogy.
And it doesn't sound reasonable, because thats insane.
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I see a lot of people comparing Starcraft to a soccer ball, which doesn't make sense to me. I think it's more accurate to say Blizzard owning Starcraft would be akin to another company producing the balls, stadiums, fans (arguable), majority of players, rules of the game, and changes to the game. Kespa is the referee, or the individual owner of the teams.
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On June 01 2010 22:51 finalboss wrote: "Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests."
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life Actually, it makes perfect sense. The overreaching scope of MP (Monopoly Privileges) in our current system is what is dumb here.
It is ridiculous that there is even this discussion. Blizzard should play its part, make the game, and be happy about the sales figures - not attempt to control the entire industry.
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On June 02 2010 02:45 Phrujbaz wrote:
Actually, it makes perfect sense. The overreaching scope of MP (Monopoly Privileges) in our current system is what is dumb here.
It is ridiculous that there is even this discussion. Blizzard should play its part, make the game, and be happy about the sales figures - not attempt to control the entire industry.
It makes no sense - Adidas did not create football, whereas Blizzard created Starcraft 2.
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Wow, many of you fail at interrupting and applying analogies. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
The soccer ball in this case is a tool/instrument the artist/athlete use to create art/entertainment. I tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
You are an artist. You use Adobe Photoshop. You bought it at a store. After you've been marginally successful after 10 years, Adobe sends you a letter stating they should have ownership of your artwork and they want a cut.
I think that speaks for itself.
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On June 02 2010 03:45 StarStruck wrote: Wow, many of you fail at interrupting and applying analogies. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
The soccer ball in this case is a tool/instrument the artist/athlete use to create art/entertainment. I tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
You are an artist. You use Adobe Photoshop. You bought it at a store. After you've been marginally successful after 10 years, Adobe sends you a letter stating they should have ownership of your artwork and they want a cut.
I think that speaks for itself. Photoshop is $700. I'm pretty sure if SC2 was $700 they'd get a nice cut from just sales. Don't think you'd deem that acceptable though. It's a really really bad analogy.
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I like how everyone in this thread is playing the blame game and assumes the doomsday scenario will happen for the Korean SC:BW scene without thinking about all the possibilities of what can happen when GomTV successfully negotiates with OGN/MBC. For all we know, shit will stay the same, with the exception of Proleague/Starleague games possibly broadcasted on the Gom player along with Tasteless & co. English commentating, so we don't have to watch streams of a stream and rely on Korean translators to understand what they're saying.
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yay first post here on TL so hi everyone :D
In my opinion profesional esports is compareble with "normal" sprts where you have organisations which watch over the rules, leagues, broadcasting rights and things like that. They are unions of all the clubs and therefore of the community (casuals and pros). Now what is Blizz role in this? They are more than the manufacturer of balls and shoes. It is obvious that they are also make the game balancing. This means if there will be ever a esports organisation Blizz (and all the other gameforges) need to be a part of it. But they can not control it. It was the playerbase that made esports big and not the game manufacturers. So conclusion: Blizz is dumb not to use the existing structure for SC2. (btw: I ask myself why they have not made contact with KeSPA in the past? There is A LOT of $$ to be made in professional sports) If things go on like that Blizz has to build a whole new infrastructure with ne teams, leagues and so on. Ok I know that KeSPA is not representing the whole korean SC scene but a pro scene is better than no scene...
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It seems that KeSPA either does not understand or refuses to acknowledge the most important difference between a sport like Soccer and a game like Star Craft. Soccer has been around for ever and was likely "invented" numerous times by many different cultures throughout history. No company owns the rights to Soccer because no company invented it. (This is what makes the reference to Adidas and soccer balls so laughable.) Blizzard owns the rights to Star Craft because without Blizzard Star Craft would not exist. Therefore, it is fair to say that without Blizzard KeSPA would not exist.
Because KeSPA is in a position to make money by using Blizzard's creation, it is completely reasonable for Blizzard to want in on those profits. Just look at the NFL. The league makes money by selling the broadcasting rights for NFL games, from the NFL fantasy leagues, from apparel, etc. The same goes for the NHL and the NBA and MLB and MLS and every other modern professional sport. If you are an entity that wants to make money using the NFL as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying the league for the right to do so. Therefore, if you are an entity that wants to make money using Star Craft as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying Blizzard for the right to do so.
KeSPA is going to lose this fight. And if they persist in fighting with Blizzard they will disappear entirely in the process. Good riddance I say.
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- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard - KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports. - KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense - KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports. - KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
when I read these, they just seem as if they are claims with very little or no support. the "only for the fans" arguments are blatant red herring that try to make KESPA's loss a sob story.
I was very happy when I found out GOMTV was getting the rights to SC2. However, I was open to KESPA defending their rights, but the organization completely lost any credibility by using such ludicrous arguments. I'm so glad Blizzard made an all-in bet by cutting off an incompetent, bureaucratic organization and starting anew with a start-up that truly has made decisions for the fans.
edit: reading the soccer ball analogy, and i'm pretty much in disbelief some readers actually think it's a valid argument. lol
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On June 02 2010 SnakeChomp wrote: It seems that KeSPA either does not understand or refuses to acknowledge the most important difference between a sport like Soccer and a game like Star Craft. Soccer has been around for ever and was likely "invented" numerous times by many different cultures throughout history. No company owns the rights to Soccer because no company invented it. (This is what makes the reference to Adidas and soccer balls so laughable.) Blizzard owns the rights to Star Craft because without Blizzard Star Craft would not exist. Therefore, it is fair to say that without Blizzard KeSPA would not exist.
Because KeSPA is in a position to make money by using Blizzard's creation, it is completely reasonable for Blizzard to want in on those profits. Just look at the NFL. The league makes money by selling the broadcasting rights for NFL games, from the NFL fantasy leagues, from apparel, etc. The same goes for the NHL and the NBA and MLB and MLS and every other modern professional sport. If you are an entity that wants to make money using the NFL as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying the league for the right to do so. Therefore, if you are an entity that wants to make money using Star Craft as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying Blizzard for the right to do so.
KeSPA is going to lose this fight. And if they persist in fighting with Blizzard they will disappear entirely in the process. Good riddance I say.
Actually KeSPA is an organization almost identical to the NFL or NBA except for StarCraft while Blizzards role here is a bit unique.
Problem is this threatens e-sports sovereignty and even though some sort of royalty system seems fair the extent to which Blizzard wanna control e-sports does seem a bit to much considering in the end their a company with objectives that at times might align with whats good for e-sports but other times may not.
If e-sports ever grows as big as to be able to generate a high revenue in itself like the NFL or NBA then I think Blizzard or whoever controlling it is fine but being a growing market I fear Blizzard assuming control now might lead to e-sports being reduced to simply a marketing tool used to generate attention for new games rather then supporting the "sports" themselves.
EDIT: Damn skype
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On June 02 2010 03:50 xBillehx wrote: Photoshop is $700. I'm pretty sure if SC2 was $700 they'd get a nice cut from just sales. Don't think you'd deem that acceptable though. It's a really really bad analogy.
That's where the licensing fees come in smartass. KeSPA has agreed to pay a licensing fee.
Considering photoshop is an application for a PC and Starcraft 2 is a video game. I'd say it's a fair analogy. No matter how you slice it, KeSPA view it as a tool for entertainment.
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On June 02 2010 03:45 StarStruck wrote: Wow, many of you fail at interrupting and applying analogies. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
The soccer ball in this case is a tool/instrument the artist/athlete use to create art/entertainment. I tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
You are an artist. You use Adobe Photoshop. You bought it at a store. After you've been marginally successful after 10 years, Adobe sends you a letter stating they should have ownership of your artwork and they want a cut.
I think that speaks for itself.
the difference here is, the art in the game was developed by an art studio located in Irvine California, so the very image of a terran marine belongs to Blizzard. The same thing applies to movies and characters... if you drew your own comic featuring winnie the pooh... disney would be pissed that you are redistributing their IP without compensating them for their creation. That is just one aspect of it... music, and last but not least, the actual game engine itself all belong to blizzard, so if you buy their game and redistribute any of it for profit, it only makes sense that blizzard has some hand in it.
Kespa on the otherhand, recognizes the game as public domain rather than private property and feels free to broadcast it whenever they feel like. The fact that they offer to "compensate" for Blizzard's IP is only lip service considering how long they've been using SC1 all this time while not compensating Blizzard at all.
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Once the consumer purchases the product it becomes their property in general. The actual game does not belong to Blizzard once it is out of their hands. The artwork is a whole different story.
This isn't as clear-cut as some people make it out to be. Here's an example: if you recall, there is an End User Agreement once you open SC Campaign Editor for the first time, which doesn't necessarily help Blizzard's case. In KeSPA's view, every unit/doodad/etc. is a tool to be used by the artist to create his/her masterpiece. The maps used by OSL/MSL/OGN are KeSPA owned. The players on the other hand are the musicians of their keyboards who try to out compose each other. Dare you argue that?
Redistribution is such a bad term and can mean many things. KeSPA isn't single-handedly redistributing the game through piracy. However, they do redistributing by giving free advertising to Blizzard through their cable networks and live matches, which is a positive for Blizzard sales.
Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
In KeSPA's view, and ultimately Korea's view. Starcraft has become more than just a game. It has become a Sport. Blizzard are the inventors. When's the last time an inventor of a sport got a huge pay cheque from every league for inventing something lots of people like to play and compete in? Name one. KeSPA would love to hear about it.
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United States3593 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I am a law student who has been following the SC eSports scene for about 2 years now, and I felt like I could contribute to this discussion.
I want to get away from the moralizing here and try to figure out what the future of E-sports will look like now that Blizzard has entered the scene. At the premise, I want to assert that legally, both organizations have some claim to the SC eSports scene. Blizzard owns the IP rights to the game, but doesn’t currently own the broadcasting rights or the scene itself. KeSPA owns the scene and broadcasting rights, but doesn’t own the game. Blizzard is trying to gain control of the broadcasting rights, realizing that to gain control of the broadcasting rights is to gain control over the scene. Why can Blizzard gain control of the broadcasting rights? As dybydx noted earlier, every time a game is broadcasted, certain things like character artwork, game sprites, etc, things that only Blizzard has IP rights to, are used without Blizzard’s permission. Now many other things, like stage design, all graphics, player or commentator commentary, doesn’t belong to Blizzard. But that still gives Blizzard room to sue over their portion, and stop KeSPA from broadcasting the portions that contain their game. Of course, to do that would be to kill the entire point of the broadcast, and Blizzard knows this. In defense of KeSPA, they know this too, and aren’t trying to completely block Blizzard out of the process. They recognize that Blizzard does have some right to be compensated for the use of their game, whether it be a fee for each game played, or a percentage of all profits, ownership of replays or what have you. What KeSPA is not willing to give up is the actual right of broadcasting, because whoever controls the broadcasting rights, controls the scene, and KeSPA wants to remain in control of SC eSports. So who wins in this stalemate? There is always the possibility that Blizzard works up a deal with KeSPA and allows them to continue to control the broadcasting rights. However, given their recent deal with GOM, that seems unlikely. I would suggest that Blizzard will win this confrontation (rightly or wrongly) for the following reasons:
1) They have GOM. The fact that another Korean media outlet is willing to play ball with Blizzard sabotages KeSPA’s position. By giving the broadcasting rights to GOM, they are legally asserting that they control those broadcasting rights in the first place. If KeSPA was to challenge Blizzard in court (which I presume they will), they would not only have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights to their past games, but they would also have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights for their games going forward (in order to stop GOM from broadcasting). It is entirely possible that KeSPA will win the first argument (there seems to be president there, though I can’t say I know Korean law well enough to say for certain), but lose the second, allowing GOM to survive as sort of a “shadow KeSPA.” Which brings me to my second point. By giving GOM not only the rights to broadcast their games, but also to make deals with other broadcasters for their leagues, GOM becomes the new KeSPA. GOM can dictate the rules on how games are to be played, who can sponsor and who can’t, what teams that can participate, etc. as part of the contract for broadcasting rights. There may or may not be a place for KeSPA here (government watchdog?), but given the bad blood between the two in the past, it would seem unlikely that KeSPA would have any real say in how this “shadow KeSPA” would run.
2) They control the future (SC2). It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league. What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Good analysis, welcome to TL. How do you rebut this argument kespa is making?
"Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests."
On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + 按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想:其实星际也是韩国人的,暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
Translation: according to Korean custom, QingMing festival is theirs, the immortal poe NiBai is theirs, first president of the Republic of China is theirs
Thus....
I boldly infer: In actuality Starcraft belongs to Korean, Blizzard also belongs to Korean.
你可以看懂英文 为怎么不打英文??
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I don't really like either of them at this point. Activision Blizzard is being greedy as hell and KeSPA has always been greedy. Blizz should get money for someone using there game but they shouldn't milk it for every penny. The guy who invented soccer wouldn't get tons of money from everything soccer related. Just because you made something doesn't mean you get everything after that. (eg I invented the screw driver, anything that requires a screw driver now is mine) Blizzard is being so greedy it pisses me off. Have any of the other companies who have games in like the WCG get all these rights. To the makers of Counter-Strike or Quake get all the money from events held with there games? Blizzard is straight up greedy here. They have zero true desire to help eSports grow unless it 100% benefits them. I realize they are a company and trying to make money but whatever happened to a company doing something good for the community? Blizzard doesn't give a shit about the players or eSports. They want your money and that is all. And KeSPA really isn't much better. Having a monopoly on eSports in Korea for the past 10 years and treating there players and anyone who was involved like shit, imo at least. I personally think KeSPA needs to go away and we need a different eSports organization that actually cares about the players. One with someone like Sean Plott (I only use him as an example because his actual love for the game, the community, the players, and how it has effected him and his life so much) at the lead who would try to help eSports grow and the community would be the ones truely benefiting, not the organization.
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Can I go out, buy 10 action DVDs, stitch up an "ultimate action movie" using scenes from them and then broadcast that on TV without the permission from the authors? I mean, clearly the movies are just my tools and it's my right as an artist to use them to display my skill. The original movies are just getting more exposure so their makers should thank me.
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Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed.
Movies are tools? What planet are you from? It's the finished product. The director and co. are done with it. It will either be a hit, or not. Facepalm.
There is no point talking about adaptations of old films. It's a different business altogether. The copyrights don't translate the same.
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On June 02 2010 05:04 StarStruck wrote: Once the consumer purchases the product it becomes their property in general. The actual game does not belong to Blizzard once it is out of their hands. The artwork is a whole different story.
This isn't as clear-cut as some people make it out to be. Here's an example: if you recall, there is an End User Agreement once you open SC Campaign Editor for the first time, which doesn't necessarily help Blizzard's case. In KeSPA's view, every unit/doodad/etc. is a tool to be used by the artist to create his/her masterpiece. The maps used by OSL/MSL/OGN are KeSPA owned. The players on the other hand are the musicians of their keyboards who try to out compose each other. Dare you argue that?
If you read the End User Agreement you will see that when you buy Starcraft, you are buying a license to use Starcraft, not ownership. Blizzard still owns everything, including anything created on SC Campaign Editor.
Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
Comparing Adidas to Soccer/football as Blizzard is to Starcraft is a terrible analogy. Adidas has no legal claim whatsoever on soccer. Yes, they own their soccer balls so yes they could demand that FIFA pay them for using their property, but let's be honest, there are plenty of other soccer ball companies just dying to have their product represented at the World Cup.
Blizzard could be nice and just let Kespa do their thing but it's their game. They can do whatever they want with it.
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Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
Ugh! One of my biggest pet peeves is the use of flawed analogies.
Added: Whoops, the post above me already got this one covered. (Good work, Neighbor!)
To expand on it, soccer balls are basically an accessory to the sport. Blizzard's game is not an accessory, but rather the sport itself. The medium of the sport is different, so it cannot be protected by public domain; soccer is made up of mutually accepted rules, but StarCraft is a manufactured product, protected by the creator's intellectual property.
KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
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That's a mute point. I'll just quote myself considering you decided to neglect 3/4 of what i said:
Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just interpreting what KeSPA has said.
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Hmm this looks like a KESPA cry post
The most important thing is missing and that is what is KESPA planing to do.
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They want answers from Blizzard and Blizzard isn't giving it to them.
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Comparing Esports to Ahtletic Sports if fine if we want to discuss the stucture of the system. Please stop comparing Esports to Athletic Sports, it is a terrible analogy when looking at IP rights. If you must compare it to something compare it to board games(i.e. monopoly) or card games(i.e. magic).
Better Analogy(but not great):
If their is a molopoly tournment which company X host and sell tickets and board cast one channel Y. Company X is going to need permission from Milton Bradey to do so and will have to most likely pay them some royalities.
now go read Neighbor post again
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On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote: Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed. Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing.
Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html
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On June 02 2010 06:00 StarStruck wrote:That's a mute point. I'll just quote myself considering you decided to neglect 3/4 of what i said: Show nested quote +Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just interpreting what KeSPA has said.
I didn't reply to the other things because I more or less agreed with the rest of it. I don't like what Blizzard is doing but there isn't much that can be done about it.
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On June 02 2010 05:52 Neighbor wrote:Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
I think it's important to note that Adobe also doesn't allow their art to be reproduced commercially without permission(just like Blizzard). If you make a television program of Photoshop tutorials then Photoshop would be within their rights to demand a cut of the profits, define terms specific to your use of their material, and shut you down if you don't comply.
http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/
http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html
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@StarStruck I'm afraid it's not that simple. The owner of a product is not able to do anything he wants. This is due to the EULA. EULA and intellectual property protects software companies from wanton piracy and getting their cut when someone tries to make money off of it.
Added: Consider how legally operating Internet/LAN cafes (PC Bangs) are run.
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Pretty much what I would expect. I just wanna see what Kespa does.
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KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
shinigami very good post. e-Sports is still in it's infancy if we look at it from a global perspective; however, in Korea it has matured to a young adult. If this does go to court it will be the first of it's kind and ultimately dictate the direction of e-Sports. Either way, I don't see Blizzard and KeSPA coming to an agreement by the given deadline based on the information we have. In all likelihood this will end up in a Korean court. Blizzard and KeSPA have both made stupid moves in the past, i.e. Blizzard's inaction when they weren't under Activision and KeSPA making a China league pay them for broadcasting rights. They will be held accountable for that and a licensing fee. Much less than what Blizzard wants though.
Teddy those parodies are still rebroadcasting images made by Blizzard. It's very similar. KeSPA views their practice as such.
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KeSPA says they are negotiating for the fans, too bad Blizzard don't give a flying fuck about fans.
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On June 02 2010 06:11 shinigami wrote: @StarStruck I'm afraid it's not that simple. The owner of a product is not able to do anything he wants. This is due to the EULA. EULA and intellectual property protects software companies from wanton piracy and getting their cut when someone tries to make money off of it.
Added: Consider how legally operating Internet/LAN cafes (PC Bangs) are run.
Yeah, but the Starcraft EULA is very outdated and obsolete in terms of broadcasting those images. Profit is variable. KeSPA's financial records will be made public if it goes to court. They will have to prove that they truly are a non-profit organization.
zen, a better way of saying it: KeSPA is doing it for their consumers.
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I believe one must look at the bigger perspective to better understand the conflict...
1. KeSPA KeSPA is huge. They call the shots on everything (in Korea), and rule the pro-gaming teams with an iron (but just [read: respect KeSPA, KeSPA rewards you]) fist. If they can get away with being able to keep their current setup, it would be a massive, profitable victory (monopolization today, monopolization tomorrow).
2. Blizzard Blizzard has let KeSPA run around freely due to how difficult international laws work. As the years passed, and intellectual property laws strengthened, it is now viable to pursue with a high degree of success; they can finally get their rightful cut. On a local level, users would be able to freely run their own tournaments. If one takes it to a national level, one would obviously pay Blizzard their dues since it is well under the country's jurisdiction. However, this occurred on an international level, which explains why they chose to wait for these international laws to be established.
3. Players Pro-gaming players do not have much voice into this war since they are effectively backed by KeSPA. All they can really do (to keep their livelihood) is to back KeSPA. Internationally, players welcome this change since now they are able to finally break into the pro-gaming scene once dominated by the Koreans. (As a Korean-Canadian, I welcome this change.)
4. Fans Fans want to see high level competition, rivalries, and memorable moments of their favourite pastime/hobby. Fans are currently comfortable with the way KeSPA has been doing things (since they grew up on it), and desire for smooth transitions. Unfortunately, with Blizzard finally putting their collective feet down, the fans are going to experience radical changes.
5. Conclusion: Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. It was inevitable as international laws become strengthened and StarCraft continues growing; KeSPA cannot hold onto StarCraft forever. While they may have greatly accelerated its growth, it's time to let the matured child go... into the real world.
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does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ?
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On June 02 2010 06:11 KingPants wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 05:52 Neighbor wrote:Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
I think it's important to note that Adobe also doesn't allow their art to be reproduced commercially without permission(just like Blizzard). If you make a television program of Photoshop tutorials then Photoshop would be within their rights to demand a cut of the profits, define terms specific to your use of their material, and shut you down if you don't comply. http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html
LOL that's how things go in the US, not in Asia. In Asia there's plenty of tutorials broadcast everyday in public channel (owned by the gov) and no f**king company dares to complain about this. In the Blizz/Kes case I would say it depends on how big e-sport is. If it's big enough to affect the population then there's no f**king chance Blizzard can win, if it's not that big then Blizz will surely win but they will have to pass a long court.
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Blizzard doesn't have jurisdiction. It's going to be an uphill battle for them. It could cost a lot of money. Is the opportunity cost really worth it is the question.
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On June 02 2010 06:36 Disarray wrote: does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ? Many reasons, but the most relevant for me and BW fans is that, unlike MSL/OSL/Proleague, the Gom League wasn't 100% free for the spectators.
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Do you guys think its safe to assume the sc1 progamers will still continue either through kespa or gom, most likely kespa will either make a deal with blizzard/gom, or just continue their leagues independently/be taken to court in which case I imagine theyd be able to run the leagues during the months or years during the court case. I think theres little to no chance kespa will just give up and quit.
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On June 02 2010 06:04 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote: Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed. Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing. Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html
You do know that Der Undertang (Hitler) parody clips have been taken down and are prohibited from being shown on Youtube. There are countless parody videos of performing artists that have been taken down. The UFC has taken down fan-made "highlight reel" clips that contains even a few seconds of their fights. I think you assumed fair use under a very limited scope.
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On June 02 2010 06:36 Disarray wrote: does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ?
I would like to hear from korean netizens an opinion about this.
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On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote: I believe one must look at the bigger perspective to better understand the conflict...
1. KeSPA KeSPA is huge. They call the shots on everything (in Korea), and rule the pro-gaming teams with an iron (but just [read: respect KeSPA, KeSPA rewards you]) fist. If they can get away with being able to keep their current setup, it would be a massive, profitable victory (monopolization today, monopolization tomorrow).
2. Blizzard Blizzard has let KeSPA run around freely due to how difficult international laws work. As the years passed, and intellectual property laws strengthened, it is now viable to pursue with a high degree of success; they can finally get their rightful cut. On a local level, users would be able to freely run their own tournaments. If one takes it to a national level, one would obviously pay Blizzard their dues since it is well under the country's jurisdiction. However, this occurred on an international level, which explains why they chose to wait for these international laws to be established.
3. Players Pro-gaming players do not have much voice into this war since they are effectively backed by KeSPA. All they can really do (to keep their livelihood) is to back KeSPA. Internationally, players welcome this change since now they are able to finally break into the pro-gaming scene once dominated by the Koreans. (As a Korean-Canadian, I welcome this change.)
4. Fans Fans want to see high level competition, rivalries, and memorable moments of their favourite pastime/hobby. Fans are currently comfortable with the way KeSPA has been doing things (since they grew up on it), and desire for smooth transitions. Unfortunately, with Blizzard finally putting their collective feet down, the fans are going to experience radical changes.
5. Conclusion: Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. It was inevitable as international laws become strengthened and StarCraft continues growing; KeSPA cannot hold onto StarCraft forever. While they may have greatly accelerated its growth, it's time to let the matured child go... into the real world.
The only problem with this is that nothing Blizzard does seems to support e-sports at all, worldwide or otherwise. They have almost designed the structure of Battle.net 2.0 itself for almost pure casual experience as opposed to e-sports (although most casual players would even realize how bad it is). Blizzard may very well be trying to get the best of both worlds, but that is usually not a good idea at all, since its not really possible.
Companies that try to do too much usually end up doing almost nothing. Isn't that what we see now with Bnet 2.0? Battle.net 2.0 was supposed to be some next-gen battle.net with all these features to enhance user experience. And what is it now? Its some barren wasteland devoid of any and all features with the most awkward of interfaces and horrible user experiences. It doesn't even have the features of its predecessor.
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Blizzard should sponsor their game like WotC does with their. If Blizzard had this level of commitment to eSports, I think this would have an unprecedented effect on eSports on global level. Now they are just buttfucking KeSPA using IP Rights to seize control over eSports. Dunno if this will help on global scene or on Korea scene.
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On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
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On June 02 2010 07:27 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 06:04 Teddyman wrote:On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote: Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed. Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing. Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html You do know that Der Undertang (Hitler) parody clips have been taken down and are prohibited from being shown on Youtube. There are countless parody videos of performing artists that have been taken down. The UFC has taken down fan-made "highlight reel" clips that contains even a few seconds of their fights. I think you assumed fair use under a very limited scope. There isn't a clear line of what constitutes fair use. A multi-minute unedited clip from a movie with just subtitles tacked on is probably too much. It also seems to be Youtube policy to take clips down without much investigation once someone files a copyright claim and leave it to the uploader to challange the claim if they want their videos back. Now, do we need to derail this further? Does someone seriously think commercial broadcasting of SC without permission is legal?
EULA C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: [...] (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. (iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes
Not sure if this is the original EULA from 1998 since I have the digital version installed, so feel free to point out differences if they exist.
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If all the game developers are going to be like Activision-Blizzard .. then i see e-Sport as dead in the water ..
no leagues, expensive televised games, restrictions etc.,
if blizzard wins this rights for IP, e-sport is good as dead, considering how companies like to get paid BIG
if kespa wins, a new development will be realize. not just in korea.
think about that, do you want Blizzard to win?
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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
took long enough for such a post to come up in here -_- fully agree.
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More like Blizzard won't do anything. I don't feel sorry for KeSPA or Blizzard at all. ret you never quite adapted to their culture and yeah you had limited communication with the players. Not only that, but some putz got you kicked out of the house. It is what it is. We got to read between the lines of any address. Blizzard has never been straightup with the fans, same can be said about KeSPA. They both wreak of rotten fish right now.
Like I said before, KeSPA obviously doesn't want any competition. Not only that, but I recall players complaining about fatigue (even though they do stick to their strick practice schedules pretty tightly), the top players just don't have enough preparation time for GOM, OSL, MSL and PL. You should know that better than anyone else. The Sponsors and coaches value PL more than any individual leage. They need their players to have ample preparation (well, that has somewhat changed with the format now as we don't know the entire lineup). These are just two factors though.
In summary:
1) Gom is a competitor. They don't want to lose their viewership to GOM. 2) Top player fatigue and preparation time for matches. Show their best games.
From what I recall, the season one of GOM had a lot of sloppy play from many of the top gamers. Players like Shuttle ended up in the top 4.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote: People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. You can believe that. But tell me how Blizzard/GOM is going to make your life better. Blizzard isn't a charitable organization who likes to donate money to gamers.
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KeSPA is suppose to be a non-profit institution that helps support Esports and yet they kill off GOM because they were a competitor. I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague.
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On June 02 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote: I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague.
Because those individual leagues and the proleague ARE korean. They were organized around those teams and players. It was never KeSPA's intentions to be a worldwide e-sports manager. And if blizzard really gave a shit about e-sports there was never anything stopping them from trying to organize/sponsor anything anywhere in the world. They came to korea through gom because there was already a market there (which has been supported by the teams for years). ATM they are once again trying to capitalize on this market, by attempting to kill off bw and give GOM the sole rights to broadcast sc2, hoping that the existing korean esports scene will be forced to move to it.
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On June 02 2010 12:32 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote: I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague. Because those individual leagues and the proleague ARE korean. They were organized around those teams and players. It was never KeSPA's intentions to be a worldwide e-sports manager. And if blizzard really gave a shit about e-sports there was never anything stopping them from trying to organize/sponsor anything anywhere in the world. They came to korea through gom because there was already a market there (which has been supported by the teams for years). ATM they are once again trying to capitalize on this market, by attempting to kill off bw and give GOM the sole rights to broadcast sc2, hoping that the existing korean esports scene will be forced to move to it.
I completely agree.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote: Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands.
Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible.
KeSPA, from everything I've heard, is La Cosa Nostra of esports, and I'm happy with anything Blizz does to clean up the joint.
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On June 02 2010 13:15 Wodenborn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote: Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible.
So the argument here is that blizzard doesn't have the money to develop e-sports? Blizzard? the same company that is pulling tens of millions of dollars each month from WoW subscriptions alone?
Here's the deal. If Blizzard wanted e-sports worldwide, they would have attempted to organize a proleague and individual leagues in europe and one in the states, and they would have done so years ago. Nothing is stopping them from it. But that would mean:
- Negotiate with clans/teams that are interested. - Negotiate with cable networks that are willing to provide daily/weekly airtime. - Help said clans/teams find sponsors willing to pay for team housing/food, professional full-time coaching staff, equipment, uniforms and salaries. - Find sponsors for the different leagues.
Of course, Blizzard won't actually do that, because theres a big chance that it won't end well and they will lose money on the deal. So instead, they are trying to destroy the korean esports market which has been developing for 10 years now and take it over, because they don't risk any of their own profits if they fail and just destroy esports in korea. Aside from korea, all blizzard intends to do is have bnet tournaments here and there and WCG. Pretty much what happened for sc1.
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On June 02 2010 13:15 Wodenborn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote: Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible. KeSPA, from everything I've heard, is La Cosa Nostra of esports, and I'm happy with anything Blizz does to clean up the joint.
are you kidding me?? Blizzard wants a great e-Sport????
think of the children!!!!
NO! blizzard doesn't want e-Sport. They want money and e-Sport didn't boom outside Korea because the companies want great returns, which is impossible because there isn't a great deal of market that would take e-Sport seriously.
look at europe, US, south america. sure there are good players there but will they get great sponsors like AIR LINERS, TELECOM COMAPNIES, MEDIA, BANKS, or a Company like SAMSUNG? not in this lifetime.
and what have YOU HEARD about ACTIVISION-BLIZZARD??
fuck that shit! i admire korea, not kespa, into taking a great gamble with its e-sport. thats why i hate fucking blizzard in destroying it.
P.S. if blizzard truely wants that kind of e-sport outside of korea, then tell me this. WHY DIDN'T THEY HAVE CROSS-REALM CONNECTION??
if they truly want a unified e-sport, then why are they dividing it instead of making it available?? hell its available for $60 per realm .. fuck that
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On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote: 5. Conclusion: Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world.
If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind.
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People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
I don't post often, but this sums up what I think accurate. Politics all over again, pick the lesser of two evils
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On June 02 2010 14:24 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote: 5. Conclusion: Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind.
if Competition is good, then why did Kespa pull out all the teams from GOM origionally?
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On June 02 2010 14:47 IamAnton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 14:24 mmdmmd wrote:On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote: 5. Conclusion: Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind. if Competition is good, then why did Kespa pull out all the teams from GOM origionally?
Back then, did the GOM/Blizz team want to make their own teams? Did they even attemp?
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While I agree with what appears to be the fact that Blizzard's intellectual right's haven't been infringed on (does the creator of football get paid royalties every time a game is played?), this part is the biggest load of shit I've ever read.
On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote: - KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporation so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches. - Every year KeSPA submits accounting reports to board of directors, and can make public any accounts regarding complete reinvestment of broadcasting fees.
First off, reinvesting in your company has absolutely nothing to do with being for profit. And in many countries you have to declare if you are a nonprofit organization. Secondly showing the bookkeeping is also irrelevant, as the net profit/lose would show absolutely nothing about if a company is for profit or not.
If they are trying to sell broadcasting rights to SC, I can't see any possible way for them to win that battle.
On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote: They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
This analogy fails. Blizzard doesn't provide the tournament scene, or the players, or the equipment, or the casters. All they made was the rules and the ball.
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On June 02 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
No precedent + International + No contracts between parties + IP rights = Legal clusterfuck.
Whos legally right here is just something we can speculate about.
EDIT: Jesus christ skype.
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On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
The only difference is, here NFL=Kespa and not TV Station=Kespa. Kespa is charging TV stations (MBC, OGN) for the broadcasting rights, and it has every right to do so, because Kespa is creating content that people want to watch. Kespa is not filming Starcraft. No one is there to watch starcraft, but to watch professional gamers play it. If it was me playing it, no one would come . Basically nobody cares about the game itself anymore. It might have been interesting in the first year or so, when it was new (like SC2 now), but not anymore. This type of conflict was never seen before, so the courts will probably define history here (if it goes to court). And I do believe that KeSPA has a valid point that it is the one creating the content and the game is just a tool. In that sense adidas an analaogy and the football ball is correct. The ball itself has same form of art done on it (and all the other sport equipment), but no one cares about that. What people care about is the game, content that got created by the players and organizers.
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Another guy missing the point. If you haven't read the entire thread up to this point how about not posting at all?
KeSPA includes the stations (MBC and OGN). MBC Hero anyone? Wow, just wow.
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On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
You seem a bit confused: StarCraft, the game, is a sport like football and the proleague is a Starcraft league as the NFL is the football league. Blizzard is the game creator, like the person who invented football. KeSPA has bought copies of StarCraft and broadcasted their own games. Think of it as you and your friends creating your own football league and are broadcasting your own matches of football. That's what KeSPA is doing, until the Korean scene grew big and now the inventor of football wants a piece of the cake and is spewing all this intellectual property nonsense.
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On June 02 2010 21:14 StarStruck wrote: Another guy missing the point. If you haven't read the entire thread up to this point how about not posting at all?
KeSPA includes the stations (MBC and OGN). MBC Hero anyone? Wow, just wow.
But OGN and MBC are paying for the broadcast rights.
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On June 02 2010 21:41 _awake_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote: Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a *Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it. You seem a bit confused: StarCraft, the game, is a sport like football and the proleague is a Starcraft league as the NFL is the football league. Blizzard is the game creator, like the person who invented football. KeSPA has bought copies of StarCraft and broadcasted their own games. Think of it as you and your friends creating your own football league and are broadcasting your own matches of football. That's what KeSPA is doing, until the Korean scene grew big and now the inventor of football wants a piece of the cake and is spewing all this intellectual property nonsense.
That analogy is wrong since the music and animations in starcraft are copyrighted also and since your broadcasting those it can be seen as copyright infringement, same as broadcasting and music on tv without paying for it.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On June 02 2010 21:14 StarStruck wrote: Another guy missing the point. If you haven't read the entire thread up to this point how about not posting at all?
KeSPA includes the stations (MBC and OGN). MBC Hero anyone? Wow, just wow. Nope. MBC and OGN (as Cable TVs) are media partners of KeSPA, sf. Structure of KeSPA and e-Sports Related Media.
EDIT: typo
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MBC Hero has a member on the board. They're more than just media partners lmao.
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On June 02 2010 22:20 Maaku wrote: That analogy is wrong since the music and animations in starcraft are copyrighted also and since your broadcasting those it can be seen as copyright infringement, same as broadcasting and music on tv without paying for it.
You are not necessarily incorrect here. However the point remains that if the analogy doesn't hold... if Starcraft 2 isn't legally an open sport... where anyone can compete with their own Leagues and sponsors and broadcasting rights and e-broadcasting and promotion etc etc etc etc, e-sports is dead (if it could ever be said to exist in the first place).
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The only reason there is any debate in this IP issue, is this is occuring in Korea, under Korean law.
I'm not a Korean laywer, I'm not sure.
However EVERYONE that buys a copy of SC2 in US/Canada and many other nations are not buying anything, we basicly 'lease' the software for private use.
There is no concept of Starcraft 1/2 being a legally open sport in North America or Europe. There will never be, unless the copywrite owners (Blizzard) give up those rights (never happening).
I believe that if Kespa and others continue to broadcast games without a contract with Blizzard or GTV they will be sued, and we will finally see what the law says. Still no one really wants this as it will look poorly on both parties, and obviously cost a lot of money. But then you see that Activion is willing to fire and sue it's own super-star employees and figure maybe they don't mind so much.
The thing is you can't really compare this to football or tennis or any such thing, as there isn't a legal framework to OWN those types of games (actually in the us you could prob patent a brand new game you made up but that is weird shit). However software and video games have decades of case law in most every country.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On June 02 2010 23:07 StarStruck wrote: MBC Hero has a member on the board. They're more than just media partners lmao. MBCGame HERO is subdivision of MBCGame and is a member of KeSPA. But MBCGame TV is only a media partner of KeSPA.
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On June 02 2010 09:54 T.O.P. wrote: You can believe that. But tell me how Blizzard/GOM is going to make your life better. Blizzard isn't a charitable organization who likes to donate money to gamers.
It's hard to defend GOM when they only have had three tourneys. However, you should take into consideration what they have tried to do.
1. largest prize pool for a single tourney. 2. an additional website designed for non-Koreans 3. English language commentary (3 broadcasters) 4. clear promotion of Blizzard (watch a match, and you'll see a zoom-in of Blizzard logo every game) 5. cross promotion of Blizzard games (WC3 and WoW tourneys WITH English commentary)
This is clear indication that GOM's involvement will impact players and improve their lives. If they hired relatively unknown broadcasters and opened their checkbooks, there's less doubt about their treatment of players. It's only going to get better now that GOM will have less problems trying to get players to participate.
A side note to this argument is that KESPA knows about the foreign Brood War scene and has done nothing to acknowledge it. Not even an English language website, unlike CJ Entus and Wemade Fox. Blizzard needs a partner that will expand their horizons and KESPA just doesn't meet that requirement. I wholeheartedly believe that GOM will be the agent that will provide esports outside of Korea. There's a chance that Korean progamers will have better lives especially if they are able to capture some of the international attention that they have been lacking with KESPA's direction of esports.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
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On June 02 2010 14:34 Strobe wrote:Show nested quote +People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer. I don't post often, but this sums up what I think accurate. Politics all over again, pick the lesser of two evils This is how sports work in general though. I mean, I'm sorry if you ruin your life trying to become a professional and fail, but what do you want? These are your own choices. When someone wants to become a professional hockey player, a professional basketball player... Whatever... Do you think that they have a great life? If they fail in the amateur leagues they still wasted a lot of their life. Maybe they even get a career ending injury before stardom. StarCraft isn't big enough yet to have a great infrastructure for amateur leagues, so we see the players who fail and make very little money mixed in with the players who do quite well for themselves (30k a year isn't bad, considering the cost of living there).
All in all, anyone who decides to live at a progaming house on the B-team is doing it for the experience. All their necessities are paid for, and they play a game for 12 hours a day. Quit if they don't like it. Pay a year of their life if they do but they never improve enough. I don't really see how this is unfair or immoral. There's a plethora of fast food restaurants waiting for you if you want to work full time with no education.
I'm sorry it's the real world, and the only reason you're going to make money in entertainment is if people want to see YOU specifically. If you don't have leverage or any reason for someone to feel threatened by losing you, why should they pay you? Say I tell people I'll pay for all your necessities, and you can develop your skills as a writer all day, and I'll sell whatever comes of it. Why do I owe you a salary if you agree to that, and you never actually produce anything particularly good? You can talk to me when you get really good, and say you won't write for me anymore until I pay you, but if you still suck why should anyone care how much of your life you wasted bumming off me doing what is essentially unproductive work. Games are pretty similar. You could play 40 a day, but if no one wants to see them how can you expect a salary? You have nothing to sell me, and I just lost money looking for potential that doesn't exist in you.
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broz because it's Korean for crying out loud. They serve the Korean community. It's only one body and it's the biggest and they have the government's support. GOM added more prize to the pool for the top two players only. That's it. No one else got paid. GOM is trying to branch out internationally, but through only one means. Internet. Any tournament can be streamed through livestream, ustream, free of charge. ._.
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On June 03 2010 01:24 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 09:54 T.O.P. wrote: You can believe that. But tell me how Blizzard/GOM is going to make your life better. Blizzard isn't a charitable organization who likes to donate money to gamers. It's hard to defend GOM when they only have had three tourneys. However, you should take into consideration what they have tried to do. 1. largest prize pool for a single tourney. 2. an additional website designed for non-Koreans 3. English language commentary (3 broadcasters) 4. clear promotion of Blizzard (watch a match, and you'll see a zoom-in of Blizzard logo every game) 5. cross promotion of Blizzard games (WC3 and WoW tourneys WITH English commentary) This is clear indication that GOM's involvement will impact players and improve their lives. If they hired relatively unknown broadcasters and opened their checkbooks, there's less doubt about their treatment of players. It's only going to get better now that GOM will have less problems trying to get players to participate. A side note to this argument is that KESPA knows about the foreign Brood War scene and has done nothing to acknowledge it. Not even an English language website, unlike CJ Entus and Wemade Fox. Blizzard needs a partner that will expand their horizons and KESPA just doesn't meet that requirement. I wholeheartedly believe that GOM will be the agent that will provide esports outside of Korea. There's a chance that Korean progamers will have better lives especially if they are able to capture some of the international attention that they have been lacking with KESPA's direction of esports.
You're delusional. GOM's involvement is going to change nothing for the current b-teamers/practice partners. Their interaction with players has been, and will continue to be, hosting tournaments and giving out prizes to the winners. And unless they plan on paying them salaries, that's as much as it'll ever be.
To be honest, I doubt they're even going to host their own BW tournaments. They have the broadcasting rights and it looks like all they plan to do with it is sell it off and focus on SC2. GOM is going to do nothing to spread e-sports outside of Korea. E-sports already exist outside of Korea--see China and the WC3 scene. The reason it's not picking up anywhere else is due to the lack of sponsors and people willing to invest in it.
Also, http://www.e-sports.or.kr/kespa07eng.kea#rank is the KeSPA english site. I don't really see why they have to acknowledge the foreign scene in the first place. Being a Korean company with Korean sponsors and Korean players and all.
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among other bad analogies i saw this: "- Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests."
whoever wrote that is pretty stupid. a soccer ball is to soccer as a mouse and keyboard are to starcraft.
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KeSPA is definitely right about one thing. The game with these kind of restrictions (like SC2) will never become an eSport.
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I don't know who the bad guy is anymore. All I know is Tasteless will rise again!
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Since blizzard has set up a contract with Gretech for GOMtv and stuff, I think that it is highly unlikely this time that blizzard would delay their game release... after all, they have at LEAST 2 more games coming out in next 2 years anyway...
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Look, I can't help but notice that both organisations fighting here aren't really in favour of US, the community. I'm not a fanboy of either one of them, and I also can't hate them completely for what they're trying to do. None of them IS the community: "I'm not entirely on anybody's side because nobody is entirely on my side."
Blizzard/Activision
I am grateful for the development of rts games that set a new standard making professional or "competitive" esports possible. Including the support for 10 years in the case of Broodwar. Patching it all that time gave the community and organisations like KeSPA the time to develop in the first place.
But... it's a company. And they are selling a new product: sc2. Not only are they promoting this new product, they also try to keep any competition down. And let's face it, bw and wc3 are (in house) competitors. They obviously never got much profit out of esports in Korea, so what do they care if the whole thing is going down? Only a fraction of their customers (internationally speaking) are taking notice of them fighting KeSPA. Wc3 is not properly supported anymore as well. It's sc2 they're after, that's all there is to it. Now that really sucks for me. I always loved to watch bw and wc3.
KeSPA
As I unterstand it, they make it possible for a whole lot of players to have a regular income (A-Players) or at least spend all time available on gaming (B-Players). That is unique and a great acomplishment. Here in Europe I'm all too familiar with teams struggling to find or keep sponsorship. From time to time there are incidences of teams going bancrupt owing their players quite a bit of money or tournaments ending up not paying out the prize money. A lot of gamers get screwed over because they have no experience in economical or legal affairs.
But... it's a company. And they're trying to defend their power over the esports scene in Korea. When GomTV made korean Gosu play available to the english speaking community all over the world, I was thrilled by it and tasteless' casts. KeSPA took them down and that really sucked for me. But they own the players paying their monthly wages or at least the rent and food. Let's face it, GomTV never paid for the education (in terms of bw) of the players but made money off it. So KeSPA used their monopoly and now they're defending it. As simple as that.
Sport / Esport Analogy
Don't be fooled, those analogies are weak. Of course the televised matches are not only out there because of Blizzard, they don't "produce" Gosus. But the same is true for KeSPA. Think of it, can KeSPA patch bw so there is still a competitive ladder going on after all those years? Anybody can "patch" a basketball or change the rules to his liking to keep the sport spectator friendly. But in esports you need both sides, and both sides acknowledge that in their statements.
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Without Blizzard we would NOT have starcraft.
Without Kespa we would NOT have eSports.
It's an odd situation that I think both parties are handling poorly.
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whoever wrote that is pretty stupid. a soccer ball is to soccer as a mouse and keyboard are to starcraft
That's the second time I've seen someone make this quote and stance on it.
E-Sports is the whole package of games broadcast with pro-players to a live/TV audience/fanbase. This is similar to International Sports Leagues being the whole package. To debate this comparison would be ludicrous.
The tools that comprise an "E-Sport" consist of players, a game which serves as the scoring medium, and the tools they use to play the game. This is exactly like International Sports leagues which use players, a game which is serving as the scoring medium, and the tools they use (shoes, pads, uniforms, a ball) to play their game. Again, this is not debatable unless you really want to make yourself look dumb. Thusly, the ball/mouse/shoes/keyboard are in the same sort of subdivision as the game of soccer/game of starcraft. The kespa guy didn't get it right, but neither has anyone who quoted that particular statement.
If the creators of the games of football, soccer, basketball, tennis, indeed all worldly sports were still alive, do you think they would be trying to monopolize their creation by eliminating the first pioneers who made it popular? I'm not writing that from a biased standpoint as I can see the EXACT SAME points for either argument in this hypothetical case that we are dealing with here today. I'm just stating basic facts people seem to be missing.
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I completely agree with KeSPA. I am not liking the path that Blizzard is on as of recent.
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well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard.
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On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote: well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard.
I really wonder about this in the long term if ESports ever becomes a big enough deal for a large portion of the population to take notice.
The inevitable legal argument is that no one has to pay the inventor of basketball or chess or any other game to start a league. The proprietor of said league can get broadcasting rights, change the rules as he/she sees fit, and so on and so forth. Why should it be any different for an electronic medium? You would still pay for all your "equipment", be it hockey sticks or copies of SC2.
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On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote: well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
"Give us everything you own or we'll cut you off". That doesn't register as trying to get rid of them to you?
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard.
This is an uneducated statement based on a lack of understanding of very fundamental and basic concepts. "Activision-Blizzard" can be "replaced" with any other company willing to create a better phenomenon. Your comparison of "mouse and keyboard" is laughable due to the fact that the brand of ball/shoe/equipment/uniform are also fully exchangeable. You have only served to prove my point farther. If the creators of a sport changed something in how the sport was played (we see this done all the time anyways with new rules, new guidelines, and new additions like the 3-point line to basketball), it fully relies on the players and leagues to follow them. Rules only have power if people follow/enforce them.
Once you or your creation reach a certain level of popularity, its not just all about "you" anymore. Only a selfish and despicable person would have such an opinion once their creation reached world-wide phenomenon level. If the creator of American Football suddenly said, "Hey everyone has to pay me and give me total control over everything regarding my creation or you can't play football except at an elementary-school level.", Americans would tell him to shove it up his ass and probably someone would murder him. If you want to create a world-wide phenomenon, you need to realize that once it gets humongous, there's a certain amount of give that you have to be willing to accept or you risk losing everything associated with it.
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lol to all the pro-IPrights fools, I want to say that you have no right to criticizes Kespa, because you are all watching the proleague for free. Youtube videos of starcraft proleague is an intellectual property of Kespa. Watching them without paying is infringing Kespa intellectual rights as they were never authorized to begin with. If they were, then clearly it's an evidence that Kespa cares more about the fans than greedy Blizzard Activision. lol
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On June 03 2010 16:50 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote: well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated. "Give us everything you own or we'll cut you off". That doesn't register as trying to get rid of them to you? of course it does. and furthermore they are not trying to replace it by something else to install their own monopoly on bw as you implied with your comparison to sports. they simply don`t care if it dies completely because they have a new product now which they are planning to control from the beginning.
Show nested quote +esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard. This is an uneducated statement based on a lack of understanding of very fundamental and basic concepts. "Activision-Blizzard" can be "replaced" with any other company willing to create a better phenomenon. Your comparison of "mouse and keyboard" is laughable due to the fact that the brand of ball/shoe/equipment/uniform are also fully exchangeable. my point exactly.
You have only served to prove my point farther. If the creators of a sport changed something in how the sport was played (we see this done all the time anyways with new rules, new guidelines, and new additions like the 3-point line to basketball), it fully relies on the players and leagues to follow them. Rules only have power if people follow/enforce them.
Once you or your creation reach a certain level of popularity, its not just all about "you" anymore. Only a selfish and despicable person would have such an opinion once their creation reached world-wide phenomenon level. If the creator of American Football suddenly said, "Hey everyone has to pay me and give me total control over everything regarding my creation or you can't play football except at an elementary-school level.", Americans would tell him to shove it up his ass and probably someone would murder him. If you want to create a world-wide phenomenon, you need to realize that once it gets humongous, there's a certain amount of give that you have to be willing to accept or you risk losing everything associated with it.
look, i'm no lawyer and i don't state anything legally relevant here. i simply state that the "creator" of a sport is not needed practically speaking if any league or just some kids on the playground want to change the rules. but i don't have the sourcecode of bw, neither does the KeSPA or anybody else besides blizzard. so you can change the rules of bw up to a certain point (maps etc.), but after that you can't do it without blizzard.
of course you can go ahead and create a whole new "mybroodwar" from scratch. but then everybody else faces the same problem all over again and has to rely on you to implement certain rule changes. that's where the analogy to sports ends.
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I'm backing KeSPA, without this organisation, I dont think we'll be able to enjoy what we have today.
Blizzard hardly did anything in developing E-Sports, they're just trying to steal the fruits from the trees grown by KeSPA.
Profit doesn't mean everything. Remember your corporate responsibilities.
Return some to the community and in return, you get some back. ( This may promote your SC2 game for being so generous )
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Counter-Strike was entirely free to use for e-Sports. 5 years later it wasn't profitable and the Leagues died. Now that a Game Developer wants a revenue from the entire e-Sports process, to control how the League works, and deny any broadcasts they disapprove of? Yea, I give this 1 year of good grace, and a 2nd year of failure.
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Ongamenet starleague and MBC starleague are only two true sc tourments. Proleague is also the same. gomtv? weakly as much as to had to clutch at the Blz---the god! but not the good in my mind! For its gradually weaker product and responsibility , and its gradually stronger ambition and monopoly!
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On June 03 2010 23:53 OneEyed wrote: Counter-Strike was entirely free to use for e-Sports. 5 years later it wasn't profitable and the Leagues died. Now that a Game Developer wants a revenue from the entire e-Sports process, to control how the League works, and deny any broadcasts they disapprove of? Yea, I give this 1 year of good grace, and a 2nd year of failure.
Unfortunately I think you're right. The only saving grace for this whole mess is that Blizzard's consumers are typically very loyal. Despite a huge distaste for WC3 and even WoW's lich king expansion, more people play them now than ever.
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I have to laugh at all the people who make comments of outrage that either of these companies should act "greedily." Have we learned nothing from Gordon Gecko? Anyway I'm a lawyer and I am not sure who should win this argument. I do find it fitting however if GOMTV should get the last laugh over KESPA when they were squeezed out of the tournament market.
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On June 03 2010 15:35 Plethora wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote: well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard. I really wonder about this in the long term if ESports ever becomes a big enough deal for a large portion of the population to take notice. The inevitable legal argument is that no one has to pay the inventor of basketball or chess or any other game to start a league. The proprietor of said league can get broadcasting rights, change the rules as he/she sees fit, and so on and so forth. Why should it be any different for an electronic medium? You would still pay for all your "equipment", be it hockey sticks or copies of SC2. Because the inventor of Broodwar did not die a badrillion years ago. I assure you that if the game of football or chess was invented today, it would be trademarked, and you would not be allowed to organize leagues in it without licensing. Like it or not, but that is how the world works at the moment.
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Pretty simple to me. I'm going to reference this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129449
In short somebody freaked out that in the SC2 EULA it says Blizzard owns all recording and replays of SC2. Later it was mentioned that this isn't anything new for Blizzard games. While I haven't looked through the BW EULA, if such a clause was in there, then KESPA has agreed hundreds of times to Blizzards stance when installing the game onto both competition and practice computers.
Give up KESPA, stop playing the victim card.
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let's be realistic. blizzard has earned millions thanks to televized games of bw over the years, because they were effectively getting free tv promotion of their product on a daily basis. it's not just how many copies of sc/bw were sold in korea after it became successful esport (more than anywhere else in the world), it is also how many bw fans were drawn and will be drawn to automatically buy other blizzard products because they percieve this company as symbol of quality. so honestly from moral standpoint, these corporate pigs should have no right to complain. they are basically saying "hey you did not pay us to advertise us all this time" and now they want that changed. it makes me sick, but that is how the world runs, and I dont think they can be stopped.
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KeSPA is a failed organisation, hiding behind fans is the most bullshit i've seen from them ever. However right now they're the best broadcasters, their core is rotten, but the outside and the show is fine, with just fiew mistakes. GomTV is REALLY going to have to step up if they don't want the SC scene to die within a year.
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i support blizz/gom.. kespa needs to either make their own game and stop leeching off someone else for profit, or give blizz some more slack at least
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On June 03 2010 17:02 roflhypocrites wrote: lol to all the pro-IPrights fools, I want to say that you have no right to criticizes Kespa, because you are all watching the proleague for free. Youtube videos of starcraft proleague is an intellectual property of Kespa. Watching them without paying is infringing Kespa intellectual rights as they were never authorized to begin with. If they were, then clearly it's an evidence that Kespa cares more about the fans than greedy Blizzard Activision. lol
Actually, you are wrong. KESPA content, from what I understand are not sold or registered outside of korea. Watching MSL or OSL on youtube is like downloading Hindu movies from Sweden, if the content is not registered, there is nothing you can do legally speaking.
Blizzard games on the other hand are well registered and sold world wide apart from a few isolated countries such as North Korea or Somalia.
Last but not least, if the creator of "football" or "Chess" are still alive today and can prove and registed that he or she invented their games, than anyone who want to broadcast these games will have to pay royalties. For the case of blizzard, this is the same thing.
So in conclusion, I think blizzard has every right to dominate SC2 the way they see fit. Even if they choose to make bad discions, "no lan, no chat room, no cross realm..etc" its still their games. If they want to do anything to it, including driving it to the ground, its still their choice. If Kespa wants to have control over e-sports management, than make their own games. In the mean time, Kespa should stop playing the victim card like those jews who keep talking about the Holocaust meanwhile blockading gaza and expanding in the west bank.
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Am I the only one who wants to see a Tasteless/Day[9]/SDM commentator team?
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On June 02 2010 05:54 shinigami wrote:Show nested quote +Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests. Ugh! One of my biggest pet peeves is the use of flawed analogies.Added: Whoops, the post above me already got this one covered. (Good work, Neighbor!) To expand on it, soccer balls are basically an accessory to the sport. Blizzard's game is not an accessory, but rather the sport itself. The medium of the sport is different, so it cannot be protected by public domain; soccer is made up of mutually accepted rules, but StarCraft is a manufactured product, protected by the creator's intellectual property. KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
This is the primary reason why Blizzard deserves to throw its weight around. For better or worse.
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It seems rather weird that Blizzard is fully serious about this issue right before the release of Starcraft 2. Maybe they want pro-gaming SCBW to die out in hopes of getting more sales for SC2?
Anyways, I'm with KeSPA on this one; the Blizzard that we knew ~15 years ago is not the same Blizzard today. They won't do any shit with SC1.
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Haha, I lold at the "what NDA" thing. Regardless of the rest of the argument that's extremely questionable.
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Kespa now has until August to broadcast SC, then it'll have to be all GOM. Is there a new thread on this?
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