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On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote:
well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard.
I really wonder about this in the long term if ESports ever becomes a big enough deal for a large portion of the population to take notice.
The inevitable legal argument is that no one has to pay the inventor of basketball or chess or any other game to start a league. The proprietor of said league can get broadcasting rights, change the rules as he/she sees fit, and so on and so forth. Why should it be any different for an electronic medium? You would still pay for all your "equipment", be it hockey sticks or copies of SC2.
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On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote:
well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
"Give us everything you own or we'll cut you off". That doesn't register as trying to get rid of them to you?
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard.
This is an uneducated statement based on a lack of understanding of very fundamental and basic concepts. "Activision-Blizzard" can be "replaced" with any other company willing to create a better phenomenon. Your comparison of "mouse and keyboard" is laughable due to the fact that the brand of ball/shoe/equipment/uniform are also fully exchangeable. You have only served to prove my point farther. If the creators of a sport changed something in how the sport was played (we see this done all the time anyways with new rules, new guidelines, and new additions like the 3-point line to basketball), it fully relies on the players and leagues to follow them. Rules only have power if people follow/enforce them.
Once you or your creation reach a certain level of popularity, its not just all about "you" anymore. Only a selfish and despicable person would have such an opinion once their creation reached world-wide phenomenon level. If the creator of American Football suddenly said, "Hey everyone has to pay me and give me total control over everything regarding my creation or you can't play football except at an elementary-school level.", Americans would tell him to shove it up his ass and probably someone would murder him. If you want to create a world-wide phenomenon, you need to realize that once it gets humongous, there's a certain amount of give that you have to be willing to accept or you risk losing everything associated with it.
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lol to all the pro-IPrights fools, I want to say that you have no right to criticizes Kespa, because you are all watching the proleague for free. Youtube videos of starcraft proleague is an intellectual property of Kespa. Watching them without paying is infringing Kespa intellectual rights as they were never authorized to begin with. If they were, then clearly it's an evidence that Kespa cares more about the fans than greedy Blizzard Activision. lol
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On June 03 2010 16:50 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote:
well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated. "Give us everything you own or we'll cut you off". That doesn't register as trying to get rid of them to you?
of course it does. and furthermore they are not trying to replace it by something else to install their own monopoly on bw as you implied with your comparison to sports. they simply don`t care if it dies completely because they have a new product now which they are planning to control from the beginning.
Show nested quote +esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard. This is an uneducated statement based on a lack of understanding of very fundamental and basic concepts. "Activision-Blizzard" can be "replaced" with any other company willing to create a better phenomenon. Your comparison of "mouse and keyboard" is laughable due to the fact that the brand of ball/shoe/equipment/uniform are also fully exchangeable.
my point exactly.
You have only served to prove my point farther. If the creators of a sport changed something in how the sport was played (we see this done all the time anyways with new rules, new guidelines, and new additions like the 3-point line to basketball), it fully relies on the players and leagues to follow them. Rules only have power if people follow/enforce them.
Once you or your creation reach a certain level of popularity, its not just all about "you" anymore. Only a selfish and despicable person would have such an opinion once their creation reached world-wide phenomenon level. If the creator of American Football suddenly said, "Hey everyone has to pay me and give me total control over everything regarding my creation or you can't play football except at an elementary-school level.", Americans would tell him to shove it up his ass and probably someone would murder him. If you want to create a world-wide phenomenon, you need to realize that once it gets humongous, there's a certain amount of give that you have to be willing to accept or you risk losing everything associated with it.
look, i'm no lawyer and i don't state anything legally relevant here. i simply state that the "creator" of a sport is not needed practically speaking if any league or just some kids on the playground want to change the rules. but i don't have the sourcecode of bw, neither does the KeSPA or anybody else besides blizzard. so you can change the rules of bw up to a certain point (maps etc.), but after that you can't do it without blizzard.
of course you can go ahead and create a whole new "mybroodwar" from scratch. but then everybody else faces the same problem all over again and has to rely on you to implement certain rule changes. that's where the analogy to sports ends.
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I'm backing KeSPA, without this organisation, I dont think we'll be able to enjoy what we have today.
Blizzard hardly did anything in developing E-Sports, they're just trying to steal the fruits from the trees grown by KeSPA.
Profit doesn't mean everything. Remember your corporate responsibilities.
Return some to the community and in return, you get some back. ( This may promote your SC2 game for being so generous )
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Counter-Strike was entirely free to use for e-Sports. 5 years later it wasn't profitable and the Leagues died. Now that a Game Developer wants a revenue from the entire e-Sports process, to control how the League works, and deny any broadcasts they disapprove of? Yea, I give this 1 year of good grace, and a 2nd year of failure.
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Ongamenet starleague and MBC starleague are only two true sc tourments. Proleague is also the same. gomtv? weakly as much as to had to clutch at the Blz---the god! but not the good in my mind! For its gradually weaker product and responsibility , and its gradually stronger ambition and monopoly!
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On June 03 2010 23:53 OneEyed wrote:
Counter-Strike was entirely free to use for e-Sports. 5 years later it wasn't profitable and the Leagues died. Now that a Game Developer wants a revenue from the entire e-Sports process, to control how the League works, and deny any broadcasts they disapprove of? Yea, I give this 1 year of good grace, and a 2nd year of failure.
Unfortunately I think you're right. The only saving grace for this whole mess is that Blizzard's consumers are typically very loyal. Despite a huge distaste for WC3 and even WoW's lich king expansion, more people play them now than ever.
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I have to laugh at all the people who make comments of outrage that either of these companies should act "greedily." Have we learned nothing from Gordon Gecko? Anyway I'm a lawyer and I am not sure who should win this argument. I do find it fitting however if GOMTV should get the last laugh over KESPA when they were squeezed out of the tournament market.
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On June 03 2010 15:35 Plethora wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:33 !Buster wrote:
well, in fact blizzard is not trying to monopolize bw by eliminating KeSPA, they try to establish a new esport called sc2 and in the process allow bw to be eliminated.
esports is different from any sports in that it is depending on the producer of the game, in this particular case blizzard. mouse and keyboard can be replaced by any other brand, while bw can't. you can make your own maps, change part of the rules etc. but talking about the game itself u r stuck with blizzard. I really wonder about this in the long term if ESports ever becomes a big enough deal for a large portion of the population to take notice. The inevitable legal argument is that no one has to pay the inventor of basketball or chess or any other game to start a league. The proprietor of said league can get broadcasting rights, change the rules as he/she sees fit, and so on and so forth. Why should it be any different for an electronic medium? You would still pay for all your "equipment", be it hockey sticks or copies of SC2.
Because the inventor of Broodwar did not die a badrillion years ago. I assure you that if the game of football or chess was invented today, it would be trademarked, and you would not be allowed to organize leagues in it without licensing. Like it or not, but that is how the world works at the moment.
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Pretty simple to me. I'm going to reference this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129449
In short somebody freaked out that in the SC2 EULA it says Blizzard owns all recording and replays of SC2. Later it was mentioned that this isn't anything new for Blizzard games. While I haven't looked through the BW EULA, if such a clause was in there, then KESPA has agreed hundreds of times to Blizzards stance when installing the game onto both competition and practice computers.
Give up KESPA, stop playing the victim card.
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let's be realistic. blizzard has earned millions thanks to televized games of bw over the years, because they were effectively getting free tv promotion of their product on a daily basis. it's not just how many copies of sc/bw were sold in korea after it became successful esport (more than anywhere else in the world), it is also how many bw fans were drawn and will be drawn to automatically buy other blizzard products because they percieve this company as symbol of quality. so honestly from moral standpoint, these corporate pigs should have no right to complain. they are basically saying "hey you did not pay us to advertise us all this time" and now they want that changed. it makes me sick, but that is how the world runs, and I dont think they can be stopped.
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KeSPA is a failed organisation, hiding behind fans is the most bullshit i've seen from them ever. However right now they're the best broadcasters, their core is rotten, but the outside and the show is fine, with just fiew mistakes. GomTV is REALLY going to have to step up if they don't want the SC scene to die within a year.
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i support blizz/gom.. kespa needs to either make their own game and stop leeching off someone else for profit, or give blizz some more slack at least
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On June 03 2010 17:02 roflhypocrites wrote:
lol to all the pro-IPrights fools, I want to say that you have no right to criticizes Kespa, because you are all watching the proleague for free. Youtube videos of starcraft proleague is an intellectual property of Kespa. Watching them without paying is infringing Kespa intellectual rights as they were never authorized to begin with. If they were, then clearly it's an evidence that Kespa cares more about the fans than greedy Blizzard Activision. lol
Actually, you are wrong. KESPA content, from what I understand are not sold or registered outside of korea. Watching MSL or OSL on youtube is like downloading Hindu movies from Sweden, if the content is not registered, there is nothing you can do legally speaking.
Blizzard games on the other hand are well registered and sold world wide apart from a few isolated countries such as North Korea or Somalia.
Last but not least, if the creator of "football" or "Chess" are still alive today and can prove and registed that he or she invented their games, than anyone who want to broadcast these games will have to pay royalties. For the case of blizzard, this is the same thing.
So in conclusion, I think blizzard has every right to dominate SC2 the way they see fit. Even if they choose to make bad discions, "no lan, no chat room, no cross realm..etc" its still their games. If they want to do anything to it, including driving it to the ground, its still their choice. If Kespa wants to have control over e-sports management, than make their own games. In the mean time, Kespa should stop playing the victim card like those jews who keep talking about the Holocaust meanwhile blockading gaza and expanding in the west bank.
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Am I the only one who wants to see a Tasteless/Day[9]/SDM commentator team?
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On June 02 2010 05:54 shinigami wrote:Show nested quote +Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all?
- Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests. Ugh! One of my biggest pet peeves is the use of flawed analogies.Added: Whoops, the post above me already got this one covered. (Good work, Neighbor!) To expand on it, soccer balls are basically an accessory to the sport. Blizzard's game is not an accessory, but rather the sport itself. The medium of the sport is different, so it cannot be protected by public domain; soccer is made up of mutually accepted rules, but StarCraft is a manufactured product, protected by the creator's intellectual property. KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
This is the primary reason why Blizzard deserves to throw its weight around. For better or worse.
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It seems rather weird that Blizzard is fully serious about this issue right before the release of Starcraft 2.
Maybe they want pro-gaming SCBW to die out in hopes of getting more sales for SC2?
Anyways, I'm with KeSPA on this one; the Blizzard that we knew ~15 years ago is not the same Blizzard today. They won't do any shit with SC1.
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Haha, I lold at the "what NDA" thing. Regardless of the rest of the argument that's extremely questionable.
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Kespa now has until August to broadcast SC, then it'll have to be all GOM. Is there a new thread on this?
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EPT
