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On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
took long enough for such a post to come up in here -_- fully agree.
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More like Blizzard won't do anything. I don't feel sorry for KeSPA or Blizzard at all. ret you never quite adapted to their culture and yeah you had limited communication with the players. Not only that, but some putz got you kicked out of the house. It is what it is. We got to read between the lines of any address. Blizzard has never been straightup with the fans, same can be said about KeSPA. They both wreak of rotten fish right now.
Like I said before, KeSPA obviously doesn't want any competition. Not only that, but I recall players complaining about fatigue (even though they do stick to their strick practice schedules pretty tightly), the top players just don't have enough preparation time for GOM, OSL, MSL and PL. You should know that better than anyone else. The Sponsors and coaches value PL more than any individual leage. They need their players to have ample preparation (well, that has somewhat changed with the format now as we don't know the entire lineup). These are just two factors though.
In summary:
1) Gom is a competitor. They don't want to lose their viewership to GOM.
2) Top player fatigue and preparation time for matches. Show their best games.
From what I recall, the season one of GOM had a lot of sloppy play from many of the top gamers. Players like Shuttle ended up in the top 4. 
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 31 2010 23:24 ret wrote:
People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
You can believe that. But tell me how Blizzard/GOM is going to make your life better. Blizzard isn't a charitable organization who likes to donate money to gamers.
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KeSPA is suppose to be a non-profit institution that helps support Esports and yet they kill off GOM because they were a competitor. I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague.
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On June 02 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote:
I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague.
Because those individual leagues and the proleague ARE korean. They were organized around those teams and players. It was never KeSPA's intentions to be a worldwide e-sports manager. And if blizzard really gave a shit about e-sports there was never anything stopping them from trying to organize/sponsor anything anywhere in the world. They came to korea through gom because there was already a market there (which has been supported by the teams for years). ATM they are once again trying to capitalize on this market, by attempting to kill off bw and give GOM the sole rights to broadcast sc2, hoping that the existing korean esports scene will be forced to move to it.
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On June 02 2010 12:32 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote:
I can also see why Blizzard doesn't want KeSPA to be the company that develops Esports, just look at the first letter, KOREAN, Blizzard wants Esports to develop globally how can that happen when at the moment you need to be in 1 of the 12 korean sponsored companys to compete in the individual leagues and the proleague. Because those individual leagues and the proleague ARE korean. They were organized around those teams and players. It was never KeSPA's intentions to be a worldwide e-sports manager. And if blizzard really gave a shit about e-sports there was never anything stopping them from trying to organize/sponsor anything anywhere in the world. They came to korea through gom because there was already a market there (which has been supported by the teams for years). ATM they are once again trying to capitalize on this market, by attempting to kill off bw and give GOM the sole rights to broadcast sc2, hoping that the existing korean esports scene will be forced to move to it.
I completely agree.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands.
Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible.
KeSPA, from everything I've heard, is La Cosa Nostra of esports, and I'm happy with anything Blizz does to clean up the joint.
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On June 02 2010 13:15 Wodenborn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible.
So the argument here is that blizzard doesn't have the money to develop e-sports? Blizzard? the same company that is pulling tens of millions of dollars each month from WoW subscriptions alone?
Here's the deal. If Blizzard wanted e-sports worldwide, they would have attempted to organize a proleague and individual leagues in europe and one in the states, and they would have done so years ago. Nothing is stopping them from it. But that would mean:
- Negotiate with clans/teams that are interested.
- Negotiate with cable networks that are willing to provide daily/weekly airtime.
- Help said clans/teams find sponsors willing to pay for team housing/food, professional full-time coaching staff, equipment, uniforms and salaries.
- Find sponsors for the different leagues.
Of course, Blizzard won't actually do that, because theres a big chance that it won't end well and they will lose money on the deal. So instead, they are trying to destroy the korean esports market which has been developing for 10 years now and take it over, because they don't risk any of their own profits if they fail and just destroy esports in korea. Aside from korea, all blizzard intends to do is have bnet tournaments here and there and WCG. Pretty much what happened for sc1.
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On June 02 2010 13:15 Wodenborn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. Blizzard also wants to get ESPORTS out of Korea. If it has a percentage of proceeds, it can easily justify dumping tons of cash into developing China, and then even the U.S. and Europe. If KeSPA had gotten away with paying one small, flat rate, that would never be possible. KeSPA, from everything I've heard, is La Cosa Nostra of esports, and I'm happy with anything Blizz does to clean up the joint.
are you kidding me?? Blizzard wants a great e-Sport????
think of the children!!!!
NO! blizzard doesn't want e-Sport. They want money and e-Sport didn't boom outside Korea because the companies want great returns, which is impossible because there isn't a great deal of market that would take e-Sport seriously.
look at europe, US, south america. sure there are good players there but will they get great sponsors like AIR LINERS, TELECOM COMAPNIES, MEDIA, BANKS, or a Company like SAMSUNG? not in this lifetime.
and what have YOU HEARD about ACTIVISION-BLIZZARD??
fuck that shit! i admire korea, not kespa, into taking a great gamble with its e-sport. thats why i hate fucking blizzard in destroying it.
P.S. if blizzard truely wants that kind of e-sport outside of korea, then tell me this. WHY DIDN'T THEY HAVE CROSS-REALM CONNECTION??
if they truly want a unified e-sport, then why are they dividing it instead of making it available?? hell its available for $60 per realm .. fuck that
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On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote:
5. Conclusion:
Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world.
If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind.
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People definately should NOT feel sorry for KeSPa.
Look at how progamers are treated, look at the lives they are living, look what happens to retired progamers, there are tons of 'progamers' out there playing 12 hours a day for years without getting paid...
And then just look at their history and what they have done to companies like GOM etc...
I don't buy any of the stuff KeSPa is saying.
I find it hard to believe that Blizzard/GOM would make things worse for your average B team or Low A team progamer.
I don't post often, but this sums up what I think accurate.
Politics all over again, pick the lesser of two evils
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On June 02 2010 14:24 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote:
5. Conclusion:
Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind.
if Competition is good, then why did Kespa pull out all the teams from GOM origionally?
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On June 02 2010 14:47 IamAnton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 14:24 mmdmmd wrote:On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote:
5. Conclusion:
Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. If this is true, then why don't blizzard just [b]start their own SC Esport team in the US or another of the 200+ countries left in the world instead of trying take another countries? Competition should encourages growth, but Blizz clearly has other objectives in mind. if Competition is good, then why did Kespa pull out all the teams from GOM origionally?
Back then, did the GOM/Blizz team want to make their own teams? Did they even attemp?
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While I agree with what appears to be the fact that Blizzard's intellectual right's haven't been infringed on (does the creator of football get paid royalties every time a game is played?), this part is the biggest load of shit I've ever read.
On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- KeSPA did not earn any profits from broadcasting rights. KeSPA is a cultural nonprofit corporation so it does not make profits. Any broadcasting fees are reinvested in whole to the operations of matches.
- Every year KeSPA submits accounting reports to board of directors, and can make public any accounts regarding complete reinvestment of broadcasting fees.
First off, reinvesting in your company has absolutely nothing to do with being for profit. And in many countries you have to declare if you are a nonprofit organization. Secondly showing the bookkeeping is also irrelevant, as the net profit/lose would show absolutely nothing about if a company is for profit or not.
If they are trying to sell broadcasting rights to SC, I can't see any possible way for them to win that battle.
On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:
They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
This analogy fails. Blizzard doesn't provide the tournament scene, or the players, or the equipment, or the casters. All they made was the rules and the ball.
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On June 02 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote:
Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a
*Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment
on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
No precedent + International + No contracts between parties + IP rights = Legal clusterfuck.
Whos legally right here is just something we can speculate about.
EDIT: Jesus christ skype.
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On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote:
Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a
*Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment
on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
The only difference is, here NFL=Kespa and not TV Station=Kespa. Kespa is charging TV stations (MBC, OGN) for the broadcasting rights, and it has every right to do so, because Kespa is creating content that people want to watch. Kespa is not filming Starcraft. No one is there to watch starcraft, but to watch professional gamers play it. If it was me playing it, no one would come  . Basically nobody cares about the game itself anymore. It might have been interesting in the first year or so, when it was new (like SC2 now), but not anymore.
This type of conflict was never seen before, so the courts will probably define history here (if it goes to court). And I do believe that KeSPA has a valid point that it is the one creating the content and the game is just a tool. In that sense adidas an analaogy and the football ball is correct. The ball itself has same form of art done on it (and all the other sport equipment), but no one cares about that. What people care about is the game, content that got created by the players and organizers.
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Another guy missing the point. If you haven't read the entire thread up to this point how about not posting at all?
KeSPA includes the stations (MBC and OGN). MBC Hero anyone? Wow, just wow.
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On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote:
Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a
*Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment
on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
You seem a bit confused: StarCraft, the game, is a sport like football and the proleague is a Starcraft league as the NFL is the football league. Blizzard is the game creator, like the person who invented football. KeSPA has bought copies of StarCraft and broadcasted their own games. Think of it as you and your friends creating your own football league and are broadcasting your own matches of football. That's what KeSPA is doing, until the Korean scene grew big and now the inventor of football wants a piece of the cake and is spewing all this intellectual property nonsense.
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On June 02 2010 21:14 StarStruck wrote:
Another guy missing the point. If you haven't read the entire thread up to this point how about not posting at all?
KeSPA includes the stations (MBC and OGN). MBC Hero anyone? Wow, just wow.
But OGN and MBC are paying for the broadcast rights.
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On June 02 2010 21:41 _awake_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 08:15 Devolved wrote:On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote:
Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a
*Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment
on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit? They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it. You seem a bit confused: StarCraft, the game, is a sport like football and the proleague is a Starcraft league as the NFL is the football league. Blizzard is the game creator, like the person who invented football. KeSPA has bought copies of StarCraft and broadcasted their own games. Think of it as you and your friends creating your own football league and are broadcasting your own matches of football. That's what KeSPA is doing, until the Korean scene grew big and now the inventor of football wants a piece of the cake and is spewing all this intellectual property nonsense.
That analogy is wrong since the music and animations in starcraft are copyrighted also and since your broadcasting those it can be seen as copyright infringement, same as broadcasting and music on tv without paying for it.
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EPT
