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On June 02 2010 03:45 StarStruck wrote:
Wow, many of you fail at interrupting and applying analogies. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
The soccer ball in this case is a tool/instrument the artist/athlete use to create art/entertainment. I tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
You are an artist. You use Adobe Photoshop. You bought it at a store. After you've been marginally successful after 10 years, Adobe sends you a letter stating they should have ownership of your artwork and they want a cut.
I think that speaks for itself.
Photoshop is $700. I'm pretty sure if SC2 was $700 they'd get a nice cut from just sales. Don't think you'd deem that acceptable though. It's a really really bad analogy.
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I like how everyone in this thread is playing the blame game and assumes the doomsday scenario will happen for the Korean SC:BW scene without thinking about all the possibilities of what can happen when GomTV successfully negotiates with OGN/MBC. For all we know, shit will stay the same, with the exception of Proleague/Starleague games possibly broadcasted on the Gom player along with Tasteless & co. English commentating, so we don't have to watch streams of a stream and rely on Korean translators to understand what they're saying.
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yay first post here on TL so hi everyone :D
In my opinion profesional esports is compareble with "normal" sprts where you have organisations which watch over the rules, leagues, broadcasting rights and things like that. They are unions of all the clubs and therefore of the community (casuals and pros).
Now what is Blizz role in this? They are more than the manufacturer of balls and shoes. It is obvious that they are also make the game balancing. This means if there will be ever a esports organisation Blizz (and all the other gameforges) need to be a part of it. But they can not control it. It was the playerbase that made esports big and not the game manufacturers.
So conclusion: Blizz is dumb not to use the existing structure for SC2. (btw: I ask myself why they have not made contact with KeSPA in the past? There is A LOT of $$ to be made in professional sports) If things go on like that Blizz has to build a whole new infrastructure with ne teams, leagues and so on. Ok I know that KeSPA is not representing the whole korean SC scene but a pro scene is better than no scene...
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It seems that KeSPA either does not understand or refuses to acknowledge the most important difference between a sport like Soccer and a game like Star Craft. Soccer has been around for ever and was likely "invented" numerous times by many different cultures throughout history. No company owns the rights to Soccer because no company invented it. (This is what makes the reference to Adidas and soccer balls so laughable.) Blizzard owns the rights to Star Craft because without Blizzard Star Craft would not exist. Therefore, it is fair to say that without Blizzard KeSPA would not exist.
Because KeSPA is in a position to make money by using Blizzard's creation, it is completely reasonable for Blizzard to want in on those profits. Just look at the NFL. The league makes money by selling the broadcasting rights for NFL games, from the NFL fantasy leagues, from apparel, etc. The same goes for the NHL and the NBA and MLB and MLS and every other modern professional sport. If you are an entity that wants to make money using the NFL as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying the league for the right to do so. Therefore, if you are an entity that wants to make money using Star Craft as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying Blizzard for the right to do so.
KeSPA is going to lose this fight. And if they persist in fighting with Blizzard they will disappear entirely in the process. Good riddance I say.
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- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard
- KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports.
- KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense
- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports.
- KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
when I read these, they just seem as if they are claims with very little or no support. the "only for the fans" arguments are blatant red herring that try to make KESPA's loss a sob story.
I was very happy when I found out GOMTV was getting the rights to SC2. However, I was open to KESPA defending their rights, but the organization completely lost any credibility by using such ludicrous arguments. I'm so glad Blizzard made an all-in bet by cutting off an incompetent, bureaucratic organization and starting anew with a start-up that truly has made decisions for the fans.
edit: reading the soccer ball analogy, and i'm pretty much in disbelief some readers actually think it's a valid argument. lol
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On June 02 2010 SnakeChomp wrote:
It seems that KeSPA either does not understand or refuses to acknowledge the most important difference between a sport like Soccer and a game like Star Craft. Soccer has been around for ever and was likely "invented" numerous times by many different cultures throughout history. No company owns the rights to Soccer because no company invented it. (This is what makes the reference to Adidas and soccer balls so laughable.) Blizzard owns the rights to Star Craft because without Blizzard Star Craft would not exist. Therefore, it is fair to say that without Blizzard KeSPA would not exist.
Because KeSPA is in a position to make money by using Blizzard's creation, it is completely reasonable for Blizzard to want in on those profits. Just look at the NFL. The league makes money by selling the broadcasting rights for NFL games, from the NFL fantasy leagues, from apparel, etc. The same goes for the NHL and the NBA and MLB and MLS and every other modern professional sport. If you are an entity that wants to make money using the NFL as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying the league for the right to do so. Therefore, if you are an entity that wants to make money using Star Craft as the basis of your business model you can expect to be paying Blizzard for the right to do so.
KeSPA is going to lose this fight. And if they persist in fighting with Blizzard they will disappear entirely in the process. Good riddance I say.
Actually KeSPA is an organization almost identical to the NFL or NBA except for StarCraft while Blizzards role here is a bit unique.
Problem is this threatens e-sports sovereignty and even though some sort of royalty system seems fair the extent to which Blizzard wanna control e-sports does seem a bit to much considering in the end their a company with objectives that at times might align with whats good for e-sports but other times may not.
If e-sports ever grows as big as to be able to generate a high revenue in itself like the NFL or NBA then I think Blizzard or whoever controlling it is fine but being a growing market I fear Blizzard assuming control now might lead to e-sports being reduced to simply a marketing tool used to generate attention for new games rather then supporting the "sports" themselves.
EDIT: Damn skype
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On June 02 2010 03:50 xBillehx wrote:
Photoshop is $700. I'm pretty sure if SC2 was $700 they'd get a nice cut from just sales. Don't think you'd deem that acceptable though. It's a really really bad analogy.
That's where the licensing fees come in smartass. KeSPA has agreed to pay a licensing fee.
Considering photoshop is an application for a PC and Starcraft 2 is a video game. I'd say it's a fair analogy. No matter how you slice it, KeSPA view it as a tool for entertainment.
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On June 02 2010 03:45 StarStruck wrote:
Wow, many of you fail at interrupting and applying analogies. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
The soccer ball in this case is a tool/instrument the artist/athlete use to create art/entertainment. I tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
You are an artist. You use Adobe Photoshop. You bought it at a store. After you've been marginally successful after 10 years, Adobe sends you a letter stating they should have ownership of your artwork and they want a cut.
I think that speaks for itself.
the difference here is, the art in the game was developed by an art studio located in Irvine California, so the very image of a terran marine belongs to Blizzard. The same thing applies to movies and characters... if you drew your own comic featuring winnie the pooh... disney would be pissed that you are redistributing their IP without compensating them for their creation. That is just one aspect of it... music, and last but not least, the actual game engine itself all belong to blizzard, so if you buy their game and redistribute any of it for profit, it only makes sense that blizzard has some hand in it.
Kespa on the otherhand, recognizes the game as public domain rather than private property and feels free to broadcast it whenever they feel like. The fact that they offer to "compensate" for Blizzard's IP is only lip service considering how long they've been using SC1 all this time while not compensating Blizzard at all.
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Once the consumer purchases the product it becomes their property in general. The actual game does not belong to Blizzard once it is out of their hands. The artwork is a whole different story.
This isn't as clear-cut as some people make it out to be. Here's an example: if you recall, there is an End User Agreement once you open SC Campaign Editor for the first time, which doesn't necessarily help Blizzard's case. In KeSPA's view, every unit/doodad/etc. is a tool to be used by the artist to create his/her masterpiece. The maps used by OSL/MSL/OGN are KeSPA owned. The players on the other hand are the musicians of their keyboards who try to out compose each other. Dare you argue that?
Redistribution is such a bad term and can mean many things. KeSPA isn't single-handedly redistributing the game through piracy. However, they do redistributing by giving free advertising to Blizzard through their cable networks and live matches, which is a positive for Blizzard sales.
Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
In KeSPA's view, and ultimately Korea's view. Starcraft has become more than just a game. It has become a Sport. Blizzard are the inventors. When's the last time an inventor of a sport got a huge pay cheque from every league for inventing something lots of people like to play and compete in? Name one. KeSPA would love to hear about it.
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On June 01 2010 02:40 Drunken Argument wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I am a law student who has been following the SC eSports scene for about 2 years now, and I felt like I could contribute to this discussion.
I want to get away from the moralizing here and try to figure out what the future of E-sports will look like now that Blizzard has entered the scene. At the premise, I want to assert that legally, both organizations have some claim to the SC eSports scene. Blizzard owns the IP rights to the game, but doesn’t currently own the broadcasting rights or the scene itself. KeSPA owns the scene and broadcasting rights, but doesn’t own the game. Blizzard is trying to gain control of the broadcasting rights, realizing that to gain control of the broadcasting rights is to gain control over the scene.
Why can Blizzard gain control of the broadcasting rights? As dybydx noted earlier, every time a game is broadcasted, certain things like character artwork, game sprites, etc, things that only Blizzard has IP rights to, are used without Blizzard’s permission. Now many other things, like stage design, all graphics, player or commentator commentary, doesn’t belong to Blizzard. But that still gives Blizzard room to sue over their portion, and stop KeSPA from broadcasting the portions that contain their game. Of course, to do that would be to kill the entire point of the broadcast, and Blizzard knows this.
In defense of KeSPA, they know this too, and aren’t trying to completely block Blizzard out of the process. They recognize that Blizzard does have some right to be compensated for the use of their game, whether it be a fee for each game played, or a percentage of all profits, ownership of replays or what have you. What KeSPA is not willing to give up is the actual right of broadcasting, because whoever controls the broadcasting rights, controls the scene, and KeSPA wants to remain in control of SC eSports.
So who wins in this stalemate? There is always the possibility that Blizzard works up a deal with KeSPA and allows them to continue to control the broadcasting rights. However, given their recent deal with GOM, that seems unlikely. I would suggest that Blizzard will win this confrontation (rightly or wrongly) for the following reasons:
1) They have GOM.
The fact that another Korean media outlet is willing to play ball with Blizzard sabotages KeSPA’s position. By giving the broadcasting rights to GOM, they are legally asserting that they control those broadcasting rights in the first place. If KeSPA was to challenge Blizzard in court (which I presume they will), they would not only have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights to their past games, but they would also have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights for their games going forward (in order to stop GOM from broadcasting). It is entirely possible that KeSPA will win the first argument (there seems to be president there, though I can’t say I know Korean law well enough to say for certain), but lose the second, allowing GOM to survive as sort of a “shadow KeSPA.”
Which brings me to my second point. By giving GOM not only the rights to broadcast their games, but also to make deals with other broadcasters for their leagues, GOM becomes the new KeSPA. GOM can dictate the rules on how games are to be played, who can sponsor and who can’t, what teams that can participate, etc. as part of the contract for broadcasting rights. There may or may not be a place for KeSPA here (government watchdog?), but given the bad blood between the two in the past, it would seem unlikely that KeSPA would have any real say in how this “shadow KeSPA” would run.
2) They control the future (SC2).
It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league.
What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
Good analysis, welcome to TL. How do you rebut this argument kespa is making?
"Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests."
On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想：其实星际也是韩国人的，暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
Translation:
according to Korean custom, QingMing festival is theirs, the immortal poe NiBai is theirs, first president of the Republic of China is theirs
Thus....
I boldly infer: In actuality Starcraft belongs to Korean, Blizzard also belongs to Korean.
你可以看懂英文 为怎么不打英文？？
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I don't really like either of them at this point. Activision Blizzard is being greedy as hell and KeSPA has always been greedy. Blizz should get money for someone using there game but they shouldn't milk it for every penny. The guy who invented soccer wouldn't get tons of money from everything soccer related. Just because you made something doesn't mean you get everything after that. (eg I invented the screw driver, anything that requires a screw driver now is mine) Blizzard is being so greedy it pisses me off. Have any of the other companies who have games in like the WCG get all these rights. To the makers of Counter-Strike or Quake get all the money from events held with there games? Blizzard is straight up greedy here. They have zero true desire to help eSports grow unless it 100% benefits them. I realize they are a company and trying to make money but whatever happened to a company doing something good for the community? Blizzard doesn't give a shit about the players or eSports. They want your money and that is all. And KeSPA really isn't much better. Having a monopoly on eSports in Korea for the past 10 years and treating there players and anyone who was involved like shit, imo at least. I personally think KeSPA needs to go away and we need a different eSports organization that actually cares about the players. One with someone like Sean Plott (I only use him as an example because his actual love for the game, the community, the players, and how it has effected him and his life so much) at the lead who would try to help eSports grow and the community would be the ones truely benefiting, not the organization.
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Can I go out, buy 10 action DVDs, stitch up an "ultimate action movie" using scenes from them and then broadcast that on TV without the permission from the authors? I mean, clearly the movies are just my tools and it's my right as an artist to use them to display my skill. The original movies are just getting more exposure so their makers should thank me.
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Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed.
Movies are tools? What planet are you from? It's the finished product. The director and co. are done with it. It will either be a hit, or not. Facepalm.
There is no point talking about adaptations of old films. It's a different business altogether. The copyrights don't translate the same.
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On June 02 2010 05:04 StarStruck wrote:
Once the consumer purchases the product it becomes their property in general. The actual game does not belong to Blizzard once it is out of their hands. The artwork is a whole different story.
This isn't as clear-cut as some people make it out to be. Here's an example: if you recall, there is an End User Agreement once you open SC Campaign Editor for the first time, which doesn't necessarily help Blizzard's case. In KeSPA's view, every unit/doodad/etc. is a tool to be used by the artist to create his/her masterpiece. The maps used by OSL/MSL/OGN are KeSPA owned. The players on the other hand are the musicians of their keyboards who try to out compose each other. Dare you argue that?
If you read the End User Agreement you will see that when you buy Starcraft, you are buying a license to use Starcraft, not ownership. Blizzard still owns everything, including anything created on SC Campaign Editor.
Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
Comparing Adidas to Soccer/football as Blizzard is to Starcraft is a terrible analogy. Adidas has no legal claim whatsoever on soccer. Yes, they own their soccer balls so yes they could demand that FIFA pay them for using their property, but let's be honest, there are plenty of other soccer ball companies just dying to have their product represented at the World Cup.
Blizzard could be nice and just let Kespa do their thing but it's their game. They can do whatever they want with it.
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Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all?
- Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
Ugh! One of my biggest pet peeves is the use of flawed analogies.
Added: Whoops, the post above me already got this one covered. (Good work, Neighbor!)
To expand on it, soccer balls are basically an accessory to the sport. Blizzard's game is not an accessory, but rather the sport itself. The medium of the sport is different, so it cannot be protected by public domain; soccer is made up of mutually accepted rules, but StarCraft is a manufactured product, protected by the creator's intellectual property.
KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
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That's a mute point. I'll just quote myself considering you decided to neglect 3/4 of what i said:
Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just interpreting what KeSPA has said.
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Hmm this looks like a KESPA cry post
The most important thing is missing and that is what is KESPA planing to do.
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They want answers from Blizzard and Blizzard isn't giving it to them.
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Comparing Esports to Ahtletic Sports if fine if we want to discuss the stucture of the system. Please stop comparing Esports to Athletic Sports, it is a terrible analogy when looking at IP rights. If you must compare it to something compare it to board games(i.e. monopoly) or card games(i.e. magic).
Better Analogy(but not great):
If their is a molopoly tournment which company X host and sell tickets and board cast one channel Y. Company X is going to need permission from Milton Bradey to do so and will have to most likely pay them some royalities.
now go read Neighbor post again
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On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote:
Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed.
Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing.
Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html
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EPT
