|
On June 02 2010 06:00 StarStruck wrote:That's a mute point. I'll just quote myself considering you decided to neglect 3/4 of what i said: Show nested quote +Blizzard's old position = great we're getting free advertising and we're selling more! Keep in mind, back in those days, Hanbit was one of the early sponsors before they were known as KeSPA AND they were the intermediary between Blizzard and the actual consumer. In other words, Hanbit distributed the game in Korea.
Turn to present day. They didn't do anything about ten years ago and now they're trying to get their cut. That looks very bad on them. They should have nipped it in the butt from the start. They will get very little out of it by trying to act on it now. The old EULA doesn't help Blizzard either. They didn't realize how big it could grow and who can blame them?
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just interpreting what KeSPA has said.
I didn't reply to the other things because I more or less agreed with the rest of it. I don't like what Blizzard is doing but there isn't much that can be done about it.
|
On June 02 2010 05:52 Neighbor wrote:Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
I think it's important to note that Adobe also doesn't allow their art to be reproduced commercially without permission(just like Blizzard). If you make a television program of Photoshop tutorials then Photoshop would be within their rights to demand a cut of the profits, define terms specific to your use of their material, and shut you down if you don't comply.
http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/
http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html
|
@StarStruck
I'm afraid it's not that simple. The owner of a product is not able to do anything he wants. This is due to the EULA. EULA and intellectual property protects software companies from wanton piracy and getting their cut when someone tries to make money off of it.
Added: Consider how legally operating Internet/LAN cafes (PC Bangs) are run.
|
Pretty much what I would expect. I just wanna see what Kespa does.
|
KeSPA cannot consider e-Sports to be the same as the conventional definition of a sport. e-Sports may share similar characteristics as sports in that there are leagues, teams, and players, but they are fundamentally different in that sports is completely in public domain while e-Sports is not; sports does not belong to anyone, but e-Sports does.
shinigami very good post. e-Sports is still in it's infancy if we look at it from a global perspective; however, in Korea it has matured to a young adult. If this does go to court it will be the first of it's kind and ultimately dictate the direction of e-Sports. Either way, I don't see Blizzard and KeSPA coming to an agreement by the given deadline based on the information we have. In all likelihood this will end up in a Korean court. Blizzard and KeSPA have both made stupid moves in the past, i.e. Blizzard's inaction when they weren't under Activision and KeSPA making a China league pay them for broadcasting rights. They will be held accountable for that and a licensing fee. Much less than what Blizzard wants though.
Teddy those parodies are still rebroadcasting images made by Blizzard. It's very similar. KeSPA views their practice as such.
|
KeSPA says they are negotiating for the fans, too bad Blizzard don't give a flying fuck about fans.
|
On June 02 2010 06:11 shinigami wrote:
@StarStruck
I'm afraid it's not that simple. The owner of a product is not able to do anything he wants. This is due to the EULA. EULA and intellectual property protects software companies from wanton piracy and getting their cut when someone tries to make money off of it.
Added: Consider how legally operating Internet/LAN cafes (PC Bangs) are run.
Yeah, but the Starcraft EULA is very outdated and obsolete in terms of broadcasting those images. Profit is variable. KeSPA's financial records will be made public if it goes to court. They will have to prove that they truly are a non-profit organization.
zen, a better way of saying it: KeSPA is doing it for their consumers. 
|
I believe one must look at the bigger perspective to better understand the conflict...
1. KeSPA
KeSPA is huge. They call the shots on everything (in Korea), and rule the pro-gaming teams with an iron (but just [read: respect KeSPA, KeSPA rewards you]) fist. If they can get away with being able to keep their current setup, it would be a massive, profitable victory (monopolization today, monopolization tomorrow).
2. Blizzard
Blizzard has let KeSPA run around freely due to how difficult international laws work. As the years passed, and intellectual property laws strengthened, it is now viable to pursue with a high degree of success; they can finally get their rightful cut. On a local level, users would be able to freely run their own tournaments. If one takes it to a national level, one would obviously pay Blizzard their dues since it is well under the country's jurisdiction. However, this occurred on an international level, which explains why they chose to wait for these international laws to be established.
3. Players
Pro-gaming players do not have much voice into this war since they are effectively backed by KeSPA. All they can really do (to keep their livelihood) is to back KeSPA. Internationally, players welcome this change since now they are able to finally break into the pro-gaming scene once dominated by the Koreans. (As a Korean-Canadian, I welcome this change.)
4. Fans
Fans want to see high level competition, rivalries, and memorable moments of their favourite pastime/hobby. Fans are currently comfortable with the way KeSPA has been doing things (since they grew up on it), and desire for smooth transitions. Unfortunately, with Blizzard finally putting their collective feet down, the fans are going to experience radical changes.
5. Conclusion:
Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. It was inevitable as international laws become strengthened and StarCraft continues growing; KeSPA cannot hold onto StarCraft forever. While they may have greatly accelerated its growth, it's time to let the matured child go... into the real world.
|
does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ?
|
On June 02 2010 06:11 KingPants wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 05:52 Neighbor wrote:Adobe Photoshop on the other hand does not extend the same amount of ownership. They own only the software, not the artwork created from it (not like they would dare try doing this anyways).
I think it's important to note that Adobe also doesn't allow their art to be reproduced commercially without permission(just like Blizzard). If you make a television program of Photoshop tutorials then Photoshop would be within their rights to demand a cut of the profits, define terms specific to your use of their material, and shut you down if you don't comply. http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html
LOL that's how things go in the US, not in Asia. In Asia there's plenty of tutorials broadcast everyday in public channel (owned by the gov) and no f**king company dares to complain about this. In the Blizz/Kes case I would say it depends on how big e-sport is. If it's big enough to affect the population then there's no f**king chance Blizzard can win, if it's not that big then Blizz will surely win but they will have to pass a long court.
|
Blizzard doesn't have jurisdiction. It's going to be an uphill battle for them. It could cost a lot of money. Is the opportunity cost really worth it is the question.
|
On June 02 2010 06:36 Disarray wrote:
does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ?
Many reasons, but the most relevant for me and BW fans is that, unlike MSL/OSL/Proleague, the Gom League wasn't 100% free for the spectators.
|
Do you guys think its safe to assume the sc1 progamers will still continue either through kespa or gom, most likely kespa will either make a deal with blizzard/gom, or just continue their leagues independently/be taken to court in which case I imagine theyd be able to run the leagues during the months or years during the court case. I think theres little to no chance kespa will just give up and quit.
|
On June 02 2010 06:04 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote:
Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed. Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing. Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html
You do know that Der Undertang (Hitler) parody clips have been taken down and are prohibited from being shown on Youtube. There are countless parody videos of performing artists that have been taken down. The UFC has taken down fan-made "highlight reel" clips that contains even a few seconds of their fights. I think you assumed fair use under a very limited scope.
|
On June 02 2010 06:36 Disarray wrote:
does anyone remember why kespa refused to sanction the GOM league ? effectively killing it ?
I would like to hear from korean netizens an opinion about this.
|
On June 02 2010 06:32 shinigami wrote:
I believe one must look at the bigger perspective to better understand the conflict...
1. KeSPA
KeSPA is huge. They call the shots on everything (in Korea), and rule the pro-gaming teams with an iron (but just [read: respect KeSPA, KeSPA rewards you]) fist. If they can get away with being able to keep their current setup, it would be a massive, profitable victory (monopolization today, monopolization tomorrow).
2. Blizzard
Blizzard has let KeSPA run around freely due to how difficult international laws work. As the years passed, and intellectual property laws strengthened, it is now viable to pursue with a high degree of success; they can finally get their rightful cut. On a local level, users would be able to freely run their own tournaments. If one takes it to a national level, one would obviously pay Blizzard their dues since it is well under the country's jurisdiction. However, this occurred on an international level, which explains why they chose to wait for these international laws to be established.
3. Players
Pro-gaming players do not have much voice into this war since they are effectively backed by KeSPA. All they can really do (to keep their livelihood) is to back KeSPA. Internationally, players welcome this change since now they are able to finally break into the pro-gaming scene once dominated by the Koreans. (As a Korean-Canadian, I welcome this change.)
4. Fans
Fans want to see high level competition, rivalries, and memorable moments of their favourite pastime/hobby. Fans are currently comfortable with the way KeSPA has been doing things (since they grew up on it), and desire for smooth transitions. Unfortunately, with Blizzard finally putting their collective feet down, the fans are going to experience radical changes.
5. Conclusion:
Ironically, it is the growth of StarCraft that demands this change. KeSPA is valiantly fighting to keep StarCraft contained within Korea, but Blizzard is looking to take it to the world. It was inevitable as international laws become strengthened and StarCraft continues growing; KeSPA cannot hold onto StarCraft forever. While they may have greatly accelerated its growth, it's time to let the matured child go... into the real world.
The only problem with this is that nothing Blizzard does seems to support e-sports at all, worldwide or otherwise. They have almost designed the structure of Battle.net 2.0 itself for almost pure casual experience as opposed to e-sports (although most casual players would even realize how bad it is). Blizzard may very well be trying to get the best of both worlds, but that is usually not a good idea at all, since its not really possible.
Companies that try to do too much usually end up doing almost nothing. Isn't that what we see now with Bnet 2.0? Battle.net 2.0 was supposed to be some next-gen battle.net with all these features to enhance user experience. And what is it now? Its some barren wasteland devoid of any and all features with the most awkward of interfaces and horrible user experiences. It doesn't even have the features of its predecessor.
|
Blizzard should sponsor their game like WotC does with their. If Blizzard had this level of commitment to eSports, I think this would have an unprecedented effect on eSports on global level. Now they are just buttfucking KeSPA using IP Rights to seize control over eSports. Dunno if this will help on global scene or on Korea scene.
|
On May 31 2010 13:02 RoieTRS wrote:
Blizzard's product is the game. Once it leaves the shelves, it isn't theirs anymore. Yeah, you should add a
*Starcraft is the property of Blizzard Entertainment
on a video, but what right do they have to do this shit?
They are selling that physical copy of the game for private use. Once other people/companies start making money off of it, that violates their intellectual property rights if Blizzard is not included in the money making process. It's the same with something like the NFL. TV stations make money off of the NFL broadcasts, but the NFL is directly involved in this process. If someone were to go to a game with their own cameras and broadcast the game without the NFL's permission, there would be serious problems. This is essentially what KESPA and the korean TV stations are doing. They are filming StarCraft, broadcasting it, and making bookoo money without including Blizzard in any of it.
|
On June 02 2010 07:27 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 06:04 Teddyman wrote:On June 02 2010 05:46 StarStruck wrote:
Have you not seen all those Youtube videos based on WoW? Did Blizzard ever call those fat cats at youtube and say, look this is copyright infringement, take that shit down NOW? No. They didn't. As long as they credit Blizzard they're fine. The evidence is out there. Movies are a totally different breed. Using a copyrighted work for satire or parody would likely fall under fair use. That likely wouldn't be the case for what KeSPA (or I in my example) are doing. Also: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html You do know that Der Undertang (Hitler) parody clips have been taken down and are prohibited from being shown on Youtube. There are countless parody videos of performing artists that have been taken down. The UFC has taken down fan-made "highlight reel" clips that contains even a few seconds of their fights. I think you assumed fair use under a very limited scope.
There isn't a clear line of what constitutes fair use. A multi-minute unedited clip from a movie with just subtitles tacked on is probably too much. It also seems to be Youtube policy to take clips down without much investigation once someone files a copyright claim and leave it to the uploader to challange the claim if they want their videos back. Now, do we need to derail this further? Does someone seriously think commercial broadcasting of SC without permission is legal?
EULA
C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: [...] (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site.
(iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes
Not sure if this is the original EULA from 1998 since I have the digital version installed, so feel free to point out differences if they exist.
|
If all the game developers are going to be like Activision-Blizzard .. then i see e-Sport as dead in the water ..
no leagues, expensive televised games, restrictions etc.,
if blizzard wins this rights for IP, e-sport is good as dead, considering how companies like to get paid BIG
if kespa wins, a new development will be realize. not just in korea.
think about that, do you want Blizzard to win?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
