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On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play.
Did they really offer royalties? Is there any documented proof of this or is it something that they are just saying? They have already lied several times, whether on purpose or not... so why should anybody trust what they say?
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On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play.
I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players.
Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
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On May 31 2010 20:00 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 31 2010 18:48 kmdarkmaster wrote:
Kespa is a non-profit organization.
Blizz is a money-monger.
That's enough for me, Kespa will win. Erm, no.  Well according to OP they are prepared to let independent auditers (or whatever the word is in english) verify just that.
lol. Just because you reinvested all your earnings back into the company doesn't mean you aren't profitable nor does it mean that you do not seek profit. People's wages increase, donations are made, yeah.
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On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them?
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On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution.
You're so clueless.
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United States4685 Posts
On May 31 2010 21:01 dukethegold wrote:
Look, Kespa is basically the organization of pro-team sponsors.
But are the sponsors profiting from supporting e-sports at all? They invest hundreds of thousands per year, but that money doesn't return to them directly. There is no ticket sale, there is no significant sale of e-sport related merchandise. They profit from the image and advertising that help them to sell non-esport related products.
What are you trying to argue????
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On May 31 2010 20:49 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:42 Zona wrote:
No, Kespa can easily be structured as a nonprofit that advances its members interests. There's tons of organizations like this around the world, so don't make the assumption that Kespa earns more than it spends. And the members of Kespa didn't form Kespa for the organization itself to make profits and distribute it to members, but instead advance their interests by negotiation as one party, lobbying government to advance the group's collective interests, and so on. Sure... but Kespa is literally made-up of and run by the people that DO profit from all of this (seriously, look who serves on their board of directors). They made an organization to help... themselves. Sure, by definition maybe Kespa isn't churning a profit, but you've got to be kidding me if you think they're not indirectly concerned with anything other than self-preservation and self-interest; which is, of course, making a profit. Not that there is anything wrong with that btw - Companies are supposed to make money or they die. Just don't try to sugarcoat it to be anything other than what it is based on 'structure' and semantics.
Are you familiar with how industry works? These nonprofit organizations run by companies are actually quite common, and while they may seem to have conflicts of interest, they work.
Take for example the IEEE, the organization responsible for a good portion of modern technology standards. They are a nonprofit organization which created standards such as wlan (wifi) and ethernet. They are a consortium of companies which all vote on certain technology standards for both the benefit of their own companies, as well as for the general benefit of the industry.
They in fact created certain industries, such as the wireless industry. Sure, anyone can make their own proprietary wireless standard and sell it, but who would buy it? If there is a common standard endorsed by the industry, then all companies will jump on board, and a new technology will have been created.
Kepasa is the same way. You, for example, could start your own progaming team, and sell the broadcasting rights to it. Of course no one would be interested in buying them because its not standardized and endorsed by industry. Kepasa doesn't have a monopoly on anything. Anyone could start up their own progaming organization and get a consortium of companies to sponsor them (such as blueray vs hd dvd).
Blizzard on the other hand does claim a monopoly. This is a proprietary organization who wants to own its own industry from top to bottom.
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A: As long as KeSPA keeps up negotiations they can broadcast their material without Blizzard taking action. This way they won't have to expend minerals until later, which means they can invest in a new base, exponentially increasing their economic advantage. With this in hand, they can pay out of pocket without the damaging costs that would have occurred had they negotiated for an early settlement or had they made Blizzard force their hand before the present time or the date of future and final negotiations.
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Really the thing i take away from all of this is that Blizzard is doing to KeSPA what KeSPA did to GOMTV. turnabout is fair play in my book.
Also honestly i know for a fact that 100% of the truth has no come out about this Blizzard vs KeSPA saga so honestly picking one side over the other is really just a popularity contest.
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As people already mentioned, there is no direct profit for corporations involved in KeSPA. These corporations pay big money for the players, teams, housing, organization of tournaments. eSports in Korea never got to a point where it was big like some other sports (football for example). It probably never will. There is not that much money there in the first place. Just look at MBC having problems finding sponsors for the several last MSLs. The best players are payed what, maybe 200 thousand a year. Most of the rest are happy if they can live of the salary. In other sports best players are payed tens of millions a year. That is not because KeSPA is some evil organization that overworks the players and pays them poorly, but because there is not enough interest. If there were 30 million people watching eSports in Korea there would be a lot more money for the players.
On top of all this Blizz is acting like there are billions of dollars of profit in Korean progaming scene.
I personally wouldn't expect this kind of behavior even from the likes of Microsoft. I work in a company that makes energy distribution software, exclusively for Windows. Just by promoting the Windows operating system and SQL Server, we get all the required software and support from Microsoft for free. Blizz is basically trying to charge you for promoting their product, even though they earned more than 150$ mil on SCBW in Korea alone.
If all goes as Blizz has planned, there won't be SCBW progaming in Korea anymore. Do you really want that?
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
- The 12 Progaming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" Blizzard
- KeSPA: This is an situation where Blizzard fundamentally ignored the existence of the fans, the players, and the progaming teams and the effort, toil and passion poured into eSports.
- KeSPA: Through the Starcraft Leagues Blizzard gained an increase in sales and worldwide reputation. Even though Blizzard has been the greatest beneficiary from eSports, Blizzard has never supported eSports. The biggest reason why negotiation did not work out was because Blizzard suddenly pushed forth "Intellectual Property" and claimed ownership of games produced by the players and commentators, demanding information about KeSPA/auditing abilities, demanding that every league operations get permission from Blizzard and other rights that are outside common sense
- KeSPA: KeSPA's and the gaming team's situation is that they wish to have a logical and sensical discussion with Blizzard to negotiate, and that they wish that Blizzard would join the development of eSports as an important game creation company. If Blizzard throw away their domineering attitude and greed and wishes to renegotiate, then KeSPA will help Starcraft 2 and other games to be established as eSports.
- KeSPA: The most important part about eSports is the rights of the fans
Hahahahaha, so much horseshit it makes me laugh.
- 12 programming teams to come together to "strongly oppose" blizz. made me rofl so much, 12 teams? really kespa? try more like 3, sparkyz, mbcheroes and skt, all of the rest don't give 2 shits about you.
- oh noes teh fanz!!11 where were the fans you kespa killed gomtv tournaments? you did not only killed the sc tournament, but also the wow and war3 also. what about those fans?
- starcraft is blizzards game, deal with it or gtfo. saying it like "well shucks yo, we helped blizz get money because of us", really? and what did kespa get for their work? candy? hmmm I could have sworn they also got big $$$ out of it, silly me.
- logical discussion about the growth of esports eh? hmmm, maybe they could care to explain where was the logic behind killing a tournament which hosted and promoted THREE games. I'd love to hear it, hypocrits.
- oh noez teh fanz!!! v2.0
Dear kespa, if you weren't so full of shit and throw in the fans when it bests suit you, and if you weren't being so fucking retarded and full of spastic ppl, be it chairman and high executives or the common idiotic referees, maybe I would have believed the shit you say.
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On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them?
Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart.
On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless.
Nice contribution. Suck my balls.
Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself.
If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first.
Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves.
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well yeah sure , you dont give royalties to adidas for selling a football BUT you do give royalties to fifa to broadcast the game! unless its like the olympics where anyone can show it,
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On May 31 2010 21:33 T0fuuu wrote:
well yeah sure , you dont give royalties to adidas for selling a football BUT you do give royalties to fifa to broadcast the game! unless its like the olympics where anyone can show it,
actually... olympic videos are IP of the organization that operates the olympic game of that year. ie in 2008 it was the Beijing Olympic's Committee.
in many of the sports we know, the organizer of the tournament owns the videos. MLB owns baseball, NHL owns hockey, NBA owns basketball etc....
so if you are asked on your SAT exam, "NFL to American Football is as _________ to Korean Starcraft", how would you answer?
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On May 31 2010 21:32 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them? Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless. Nice contribution. Suck my balls. Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself. If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first. Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves.
You are so stupid it hurts. You're digging yourself a hole and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
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I think what we've established over the last few days is that KeSPA is much, much, MUCH better at PR than Blizzard is.
What's actually going on, I have no idea.
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On May 31 2010 15:39 Milkis wrote:
Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all?
- Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
Man, I really thought Koreans were smarter than this. They really shot themselves in the foot with this one.
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Even though I don't like Kespa, I loathe Blizzard. Kespa it is.
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That's better than mexican novels.
But seriously. We know 10% of really what's going on behind the tables, and in the end, there is no right or wrong. It's just a bunch of guys fighting for money.
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On May 31 2010 21:42 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:32 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:13 maybenexttime wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. How is KeSPA not supposed to have control over the teams if they pay all the (gigantic) money to sustain them? Gigantic money? Nothing the 12 pro-gaming teams do has the players interest at heart. On May 31 2010 21:14 Ryo wrote:On May 31 2010 21:11 keV. wrote:On May 31 2010 21:06 rugmonkey wrote:
I am kind of leaning towards supporting kespa in this. They seem to be offering a reasonable fee for playing SC to Blizzard but it seems Blizzard doesn't think it is enough. Also why the fuss now? What happend to the other 9 years of SC esports play. I can't imagine how people are OK with the complete monopoly kespa has on esports and the control they have over pro-teams and players. Yea, it works. Slavery worked too. That doesn't mean it was the best solution. You're so clueless. Nice contribution. Suck my balls. Money for esports comes from sponsors. KeSPA is the only force behind getting sponsors. Why? Because they have influence or contracted control over the 12 progaming teams, thus forbidding them from involving themselves in other tournaments. Do you believe that such control is in the players interest? If yes, kill yourself. If there is money to be made from sponsoring an esport tournament then sponsors will bite. Kespa does nothing except streamline the process. There is no legitimate reason why Kespa should have control over progaming teams. Any one person or organization is capable of bringing money to esport tournaments. The way things are now, it would be impossible for a second association to emerge. This kind of faux capitalism is readily provable by looking at the NBA NFL etc. Normally, a league that has total control is bullshit. Fortunately, players in the NBA NFL and MLB have players unions to ensure that they are taken care of. If Kespa wants control they have to earn it through taking care of the players, not because they were first. Programing houses are fucked anyway. It is a horrible social environment. (I'm not saying you shouldn't LAN together or bootcamp) The average video gamer is getting older, they should be able to manage themselves. You are so stupid it hurts. You're digging yourself a hole and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
You are so stupid it hurts. You're making yourself look retarded and everyone with a clue is pointing and laughing. Just walk away, you don't even have a clue what Kespa is.
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EPT
