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On January 24 2010 06:32 ZeeTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 06:16 hacpee wrote:On January 24 2010 06:07 ZeeTemplar wrote:On January 24 2010 05:40 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 05:34 ZeeTemplar wrote:On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote:
Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over.
This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units. It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over. I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about. Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier. The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you. Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir! I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over. You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage. Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz.
But I bet he can play a better TvZ then you can. So as a word of advice; arguing can be good, but continuing to argue after you are obviously wrong is pointless.
On January 24 2010 07:18 pioneer8 wrote:
I think even though the resources were in JD's favor, Flash had the momentum advantage in the game. He'd been pressuring the 7oclock base and taking out masses of Ultras and lings with 3-4 control groups of marins that he was constantly reproducing. He was at 2 gas which is enough to sustain his science vessel fleet in such a gas light build.
He had the momentum and before the outage i was sure Flash was gonna take down the 7oclock base. He had a chance to expo while he was controlling the flow of the game and noone can say that he couldnt have gotten a very quick 3rd with the many extra scvs he had.
This is coming from someone who was rooting for JD, though after this Kespa BS, rooted for Flash in game 4, just on principle.
The game was not over!! It could have went on for another 20 minutes! sigh
Sucks that the best game of the series (by far) was dc'ed in the middle and the ruined by this terrible decision.
I would put this analogy in American football terms...
It's like Jaedong was winning 20-10 in the beginning of the 4th quarter, Flash had the ball and was having a good drive. The game ends abrubtly and the officials give the game to JD. Sure JD statistically had a large advantage, but Flash could have come back and won, how many times have we seen this in sports and SC alike?
Did we watch the same game? It was more akin to a team having a 35-7 lead with a first down and 2:00 left.
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I can't be 100% sure, but I think Jaedong could have had lots of minerals stockpiled. His ultralisk count was pretty low the whole time and he had some idle larvae and stuff, so I thought during the game that he might have one of those "2000 minerals 100 gas" situations going on.
It's just a guess, of course.
But that's missing the point; Even if Flash's half-a-control-group of marines miraculously managed to kill Jaedong's 7:00, that wouldn't even bring the game back to parity. Jaedong would still have a pretty good advantage.
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The reason good players claim to be certain about the game being over is because they recognise when a player is absolutely invested in something. Flash was 100% invested in taking that base down. By the time the game crashed there was no chance in hell he would succeed.
In these sorts of games there's always a distinct turning point where you know the air was let out of you, and everything's about to go down-hill from there. Because that moment occured within half a minute before the crash, alot of people had a hard time seeing it.
I understand people saying kespa didn't follow previous precedent. That's mostly what's being argued in this thread. But saying JD might've not had an advantage is just being unrealistic.
This thread feels like any other sport discussion about referees being "inconsistent". With added hilarity as people are actually complaining about an essentially just decision being inconsistent with previous unjust decisions.
"Yeah but... but... the ref awarded two penalties when both those players dived... and then when another player was roughed for real he didn't award one. But in this game, the ref actually gets it right, but that don't matter because IT WAS INCONSISTENT YOU SEE".
And in these people's minds there's no room for a ref to have improved. To have learned from past mistakes and evolved. There's no room for a judge to overthrow a judicial precedent, even though it's discriminatory and unconstitutional and so forth...
While I agree this is an unfortunate and not the least desirable way to decide the outcome of a finals series, I won't be one to non-stop bitch about technicalities pertaining to this series in the future everytime something's mentioned. The way I see it this is actually a step in the right direction.
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its always a fukin quess and thats were the problem lies 
I dont care who would win, but its just such a watste of such a nice serries till that point.
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Delete that Power Outage, it makes Flash's ELO so bad. 
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On January 24 2010 06:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote:
Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win. Already on it.
Good luck, i look very much forward to playing / seeing that.
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I don't get the power outage. They can't have the computers hooked up to one of those power strips with 30 minutes of backup power?
Of course that's in the past, and hopefully this will never happen again because I feel like it was an avoidable situation. The situation sucks but I think it was right to give the win to Jaedong, though it still is unfair to Flash.
Um... did that final have not a single lurker spike fired?
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why don't they just make the players decide?
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Despite how many good players say this or what, we should recognize that if Jaedong made a mistake or a strategic blunder, a base could have been razed and the advantage could have swung. We have all seen it happen before.
I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash.
How could you NOT replay the game in the biggest OFFLINE tournament in the country? The rules pertaining to this are just not mannered or good for either player.
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On January 24 2010 07:53 pioneer8 wrote:
Despite how many good players say this or what, we should recognize that if Jaedong made a mistake or a strategic blunder, a base could have been razed and the advantage could have swung. We have all seen it happen before.
I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash. Like I said- even if Flash somehow killed 7:00, Jaedong would still have an overwhelming economic advantage. It would just be slightly less overwhelming. Not a big deal.
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On January 24 2010 07:46 Jonoman92 wrote:
Um... did that final have not a single lurker spike fired? Yes.
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On January 24 2010 07:53 pioneer8 wrote:
I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash.
I don't know about that. It's not very often dissent is seen against Kespa from progamers. They have to obey the rules set before them, its their careers on the line. I do expecta lot of korean netizens to come out against this though.
I wouldn't even say the trophy was stolen from flash. Had things gone on into game 4 (and possibly 5), its entirely possible JD would have won overall. He did play extremely well. But this wasn't a good way to conclude things, and neither of them can be happy now.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Once this dies down and the blind fanboys realize their error, everyone will know Flash didn't get robbed.
There was some controversy but Jaedong played very well and defeated Flash 3 times convincingly.
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I agree with the write up more or less. This is just an unfortunate situation and there is no fair decision. Either JD gets screwed by having a rematch or Flash gets screwed with giving JD the win. I do think JD was ahead enough to warrant him the win, but still, no it's not fair.
To battle 5 gas zerg, you need 2 of 3 things, a massive mnm army, science vessel cloud, and/or mass tanks. Flash had none of that, every mnm he produced went to attacking, jd kept the science vessel cloud low and there were no tanks. The game crashed just when I think jaedong was about to overwhelm flash.
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They both played extremely well.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment.
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On January 24 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:
They both played extremely well.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment.
This is sensible to say, but what would happen if let's say Flash went with some sort of cheese say proxy 8rax or something and won the game, there would be just as much outrage by JD fans over the results. Yes the end result is not fair, but of the alternative options, I do believe that they made the best possible decision. Although it takes away from us fans.
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The real travesty is that neither player truly won. It was painful to see jaedong's face as he had won the fourth set. I really wanted flash to win, but I certainly wouldn't wish this upon jaedong. he definately deserved to win without all of this.
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United States42965 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:45 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 06:38 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote:
Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win. Already on it. Good luck, i look very much forward to playing / seeing that.
Done.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110703
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On January 23 2010 23:00 Vasoline73 wrote:
CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. Yes. You da man :D.
is he?...really?
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On January 24 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:
They both played extremely well.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment. Odd-Eye is ridiculously imbalanced TvZ. There was about ~70% Terran win rate before this series. To take away Jaedong's 99.9% won game after he fought hard for a comeback and overcame map imbalance, and then telling the players to play again is effectively taking a win away from Jaedong and giving one to Flash.
Declaring a rematch would only have been disrespectful to the finals that both players practiced so hard for. This isn't a "fuck KeSPA" situation; this is a "fuck MBC" situation.
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EPT
