WARNING, THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS SPOILERS OF NATE MSL 2009 GRAND FINALS
FOR SPOILER FREE COVERAGE OF THE MSL FINALS, CLICK HERE . . . . . . . . . . .
In Game 3 on Odd-Eye of the MSL Grand Finals between Jaedong and Flash, during an important battle approximately 18 minutes into the game, a power outage seemingly caused by Flash's heating fan crashed both the player's computers, ending the game and destroying the replay.
KeSPA, using only information available from the VOD as the replay was not available, took a short commercial break and then concluded that there would be no regame, the win would be awarded to Jaedong and the series would resume at Game 4 on Fighting Spirit.
General consensus based on all available facts and opinions from high level Starcraft players indicates that Jaedong had a clear and definite advantage, but opinions remain split on whether or not giving him the win was the correct thing to do.
VOD of the Match
Kwark: That vod has another 30 seconds in it not shown on the playback. The defiler at 7 had just consumed under Flash's vision and his vessels had no energy to irradiate. In the last 3 seconds of play you can clearly see on the minimap that Flash's army aborted its attack on 7 and retreated to hold his min only. There can be no debate about whether Flash would have broken 7 or not because the vod shows him deciding not to attack it. Imo that pretty much closes the case on the game.
Nazgul's Opinion:
It is very hard to give an opinion on this without the full facts being out yet and opinions are going to vary a lot nonetheless I will give it my best shot. When watching the replay of game 3 between Jaedong and Flash it seemed to me like Jaedong was ahead by a pretty large margin. The build he used going 3 hatch before pool and actually getting double evo’s this time to out-upgrade Flash was really greedy and he managed to hold him off long enough to get to armor and speed upgraded ultras with nydus channels and defilers.
Upgrades It seemed his ultras were at 5-2 most likely against 2-2 marines. I recall seeing the upgrades midgame at 2-1 (lings) vs 1-1 (marines) maybe someone can confirm this. The facts on who had which upgrades will start rolling in soon enough which will definitely improve such a theoretical discussion. Flash was going for a pure m&m vessel build with no tanks for support. These marines by themselves die pretty badly against ultra/swarm so he would need a whole lot of vessels to be able to get away with it. As we could see in the final shots the main army of Flash got destroyed by swarms right before the power blacked out and he would have to start building an army again from scratch. It is safe to assume he didn’t have 10 tanks sitting in his base to turtle his way to protecting his new expansion and soon enough once Jaedong replaces his army ultra swarm would have been attacking the 9 o clock expansion.
Bases Flash’ main was already mined out and his mineral only was close to being mined out. Soon enough he would be playing from a single base. Currently sitting on 2 bases soon enough to be 1. Jaedong on the other hand had 4 bases with minerals available of which his main was possibly mining out soon. Although I don’t think his drone count in main was anything comparable to Flash’ expansion scvs and it would probably run for a while. That would mean there was a guaranteed 4 base vs 2 base and a potential 4/3 base vs 1 base period to come in the next few minutes of the game. This combined with the annihilation of the Terran army and the well upgraded Zerg units I genuinely do not believe Flash had a shot at winning this game. Sure you might argue “but its Flash” however that argument is a lot more valid when he doesn’t play against Jaedong. Between two players of a similar skill level I do not see a way for Terran to pull out a victory in a situation like this.
The Decision Was it fair.. no it was not fair. It was not fair at all. Flash still thought he was in the game and he got a loss. Everyone saying the decision was not fair is absolutely correct. However KeSPA had to make a decision where there was no fair side at all. Someone was getting screwed regardless. Jaedong had the game won 99% and to make him re-play it would be more unfair than to give Flash the loss. By a large margin. To go from 99% to 50% is way worse than going from 1% to 0%. In my eyes KeSPA made the right decision.
Chill's alternate viewpoint:
Q: Assuming Jaedong was ahead, what are your thoughts on KeSPA's decision?
Chill: Its ridiculous, the precedent in the Starcraft community has always been to regame unless theres no possible way for one player to lose, and I dont even feel like Jaedong had an advantage at that point.
NEW from Chill: I just rewatched the VOD and JD was ahead but I still don't feel right about the decision. I like giving the win only if it's obvious one player can't lose.
Ret's opinion
I'd just like to say I think the descision Kespa made to award JD the win was the right one. He was playing on a T favored map...in a very very favorable position after having overcome all the imbalances that make this map so hard to play ZvT on. If you put jaedong back at the start of the game it gives flash an advantadge again...So regame is a lot worse than awarding Jaedong a win for a game he would win 99.9% of the time. He was about to get his 5th gas...Flash was outta minerals in about 2 minutes....with no vessels or tanks to fight Ultras. m&m in small numbers would have never broken jaedongs base at 7 o clock. So all in all the only right descision in my opinion.
Thanks to Ret, Nazgul, and Chill for giving such timely responses We will keep this updated with any new informaion or insights from the Koreans on the KeSPA decision as they become available. Look forward to a full MSL finals recap focusing on the games themselves from the MSL news team in the future.
Although I understand that everyone wanted a regame or what not, don't blame Jaedong for this. It was MSL's fault for such a shoddily run tournament really. Jaedong was most definately ahead, and FlaSh had almost no way of coming back. If he had a ton of vessels, I'd say he could, but he was soon to be only mining on a min only, with barely any vessels. It was obvious Jaedong won it.
On January 23 2010 23:01 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Although I understand that everyone wanted a regame or what not, don't blame Jaedong for this. It was MSL's fault for such a shoddily run tournament really. Jaedong was most definately ahead, and FlaSh had almost no way of coming back. If he had a ton of vessels, I'd say he could, but he was soon to be only mining on a min only, with barely any vessels. It was obvious Jaedong won it.
Oh Absolutely. Neither player is to blame. It seems its just an unfortunate circumstance. And its a terrible position for both players. I can't agree with you that the game was entirely over, and I do feel that a regame was merited, but even so that is unfair to Jaedong. It's just too bad that this had to happen.
That was quick! Totally agree with Ret/Nazgul, imo no option would be totally fair, but this was the most fair one, in a regame JD might not have dared to do the same build giving him a disadvantage or just be forced to do it anyway to actually have a chance of winning, just to be punished by a bunker rush.
I totally agree with Chill. As long as Flash had some cognizable chance of winning this game (which, based on all the debate and particularly IdrA's opinion I think he did), there is no way KeSPA should have awarded the win to Jaedong. Awarding a win is the equivalent of a conviction — better to err on the side of caution and give Jaedong another shot to win the game than to rob Flash of his.
Perhaps a useful way to think about this standard for awarding a win is to ask "is this a situation in which we would be surprised to see the losing player type out?" If the answer to this question is yes, it is wrong to award the game to the winning player.
In this game, there is a disconnect and KeSPA do their deliberation thing. They were actually going to give Bisu the regame IF he had had his DT pop out of his gateway. It didnt, so they gave the win to July. Now this game was a lot more over than the Flash/Jaedong encounter and if they were actually going to give a regame based on one dt then seriously, what kind of travesty occurred in this the biggest final of all time?
Can't agree with Chill here. Plenty off sports employ exactly the same methods as Kespa did in game 3. Do I wish it hadn't happened? Yes. But it was the right thing to do regardless.
Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over". Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
good writeup id just like to say that this whole thing definately ticked me off... super fail by mbc... the most epic MSL in history and theres a poweroutage midgame... blehhh i feel Flash got cheated but gratz to JD for the win, he earned it but it would have been awesome if Flash at least got to play it out even if he was going to lose
I can't understand how people say giving a win is better than re-doing it. He could have won, good enough for me! let's just say he won. Rather than We don't know so let's do it again.
Jaedong didn't win that game but they gave it to him anyways.
also, it's impossible to see upgrades from the youtube VOD but I'm pretty sure Flash had more than 1-1, could be wrong though
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
Amazing work, nice to have it up so quickly. Will definitely be a finals to remember.
Its an unfortunate result, as Jaedong didn't even look like he was enjoying his win when collecting the trophy and its too bad it had to go down this way. Ridiculous situation that should have never happened to begin with (how fucking long have they been running tournaments? the power went out?).
This isn't the SCOTUS. Who cares about Chill's "precedent?" Why should we worry about what has happened before as opposed to what the correct decision is right at this moment? To me, the correct decision is completely obvious, and once Baezzi's VOD of Game 3 finishes processing I'll make a long post with pictures and as deep analysis as my tiny Starcraft brain can muster, talking about the overwhelming advantage that Jaedong had. I'll also discuss the statistical basis for the argument against granting a regame.
EDIT: the reason i'm posting this here is because that means I'm obligated to write the article and not slack off and not do it
It seems Jaedong had a clear advantage at that point in the game, but I believe a straight loss would have a lesser effect on FlaSh's mentality for the next game. The thoughts of "what if?" in FlaSh's mind could have played a part in his Game 4 loss, but there is no way of ever truly knowing. I think no matter the outcome of Game 3, everyone can agree that the series would be better off without the power mishap.
Unrelated, can someone explain what thumbing down a map does for the series? Is it if both players thumbs down a certain map, that map won't be played? Thanks in advance.
On January 23 2010 23:17 Xxio wrote: I can't understand how people say giving a win is better than re-doing it. He could have won, good enough for me! let's just say he won. Rather than We don't know so let's do it again.
Jaedong didn't win that game but they gave it to him anyways.
He didn't draw it either. There's no option to return to the situation it was in. Your options are award win, award draw, award loss. You have to pick the one that most closely fits the situation. He was not drawing with Flash at the time of the blackout.
IMO there was no fair decision that could be made that game, forcing a regame on a game that was 99% won by jaedong would have been even more unfair than giving flash the loss for this. Sad but i think this was the least bad decision that could be made
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
On January 23 2010 23:20 sjon03 wrote: It seems Jaedong had a clear advantage at that point in the game, but I believe a straight loss would have a lesser effect on FlaSh's mentality for the next game. The thoughts of "what if?" in FlaSh's mind could have played a part in his Game 4 loss, but there is no way of ever truly knowing. I think no matter the outcome of Game 3, everyone can agree that the series would be better off without the power mishap.
Unrelated, can someone explain what thumbing down a map does for the series? Is it if both players thumbs down a certain map, that map won't be played? Thanks in advance.
A map which has been thumbs down will not be played twice.
Agree with chill, What ret said about the maps though i have to disagree with, yeah jaedong overcame the map imbalace but thats just the badluck of crashing on that map, as long as both players have a chance to win then neither should be given a loss its just unfair
On January 23 2010 23:20 motbob wrote: This isn't the SCOTUS. Who cares about Chill's "precedent?" Why should we worry about what has happened before as opposed to what the correct decision is right at this moment? To me, the correct decision is completely obvious, and once Baezzi's VOD of Game 3 finishes processing I'll make a long post with pictures talking about the overwhelming advantage that Jaedong had and the statistical basis for the argument against granting a regame.
Precedent matters because it's a strong indication of what the community/players/referees have considered to be fair in similar situations in the past. We can look to those decisions to remove ourselves a bit from particularities of this situation which might bias us one way or another.
Bottom line is: disconnects have usually been handled X way in the past, instead of Y way. This is good (but obviously not conclusive) evidence that X way is superior to Y way and more accurately reflects the community ethos/our conception of fairness.
I agree with ret and I do believe the decision was the correct one. Jaedong did have that game and I the fairest thing to do in such a situation is to give the game to whoever had the advantage when such a thing happens.
That's something KeSPA should have explicitly stated in their rules though: "Should any event occur that prevents a game from being completed the regular way, and provided the game is not in the early stages, the win will be handed to whoever had an advantage after a careful review by the referees. A draw will be decided if the judges cannot determine which player was ahead blah blah blah."
i agree with the experts' opinions except the part about the T favored map part. even if it's favored towards one side, it doesn't mean he deserves the win more.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before - hence why they were so pissed when there wasn't one. Now if you want to argue that's a bad rule, fine, but since nothing had changed the ruling is justified. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
If you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
On January 23 2010 23:20 motbob wrote: This isn't the SCOTUS. Who cares about Chill's "precedent?" Why should we worry about what has happened before as opposed to what the correct decision is right at this moment? To me, the correct decision is completely obvious, and once Baezzi's VOD of Game 3 finishes processing I'll make a long post with pictures talking about the overwhelming advantage that Jaedong had and the statistical basis for the argument against granting a regame.
Precedent matters because it's a strong indication of what the community/players/referees have considered to be fair in similar situations in the past. We can look to those decisions to remove ourselves a bit from particularities of this situation which might bias us one way or another.
Bottom line is: disconnects have usually been handled X way in the past, instead of Y way. This is good (but obviously not conclusive) evidence that X way is superior to Y way and more accurately reflects the community ethos/our conception of fairness.
I think there is a point to be made for precedent. But I don't think this is it. The community's concept of fairness had no input into kespa's decision making in the past.
Precedent is important because regardless of whether individual decisions are fair... at least the same policy is being implemented to everybody equally.
At the same time, as Kwark says.. Kespa have made some terrible decisions in the past and it's about time they got their act together.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
Someone said accoring Kespa rules if something like this happens the refs will have to decide the winner.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
Someone said accoring Kespa rules if something like this happens the refs will have to decide the winner.
So they didnt just change the rule on the fly
Then they must be deciding what constitutes over differently than before.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
Someone said accoring Kespa rules if something like this happens the refs will have to decide the winner.
So they didnt just change the rule on the fly
This obviously isn't the rule in practice, as KeSPA has granted regames in the past and I'm pretty sure one was in the discussion here.
On second thought: there is no way this is the rule, lol. Never a regame? So if there is a disconnect while the players are doing their worker split, the refs have to pick a winner and then the series goes on? Come on.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
Edit: This wasn't a change in the rules. It was always within their power to judge these situations as far as I know. This is a change in their interpretation, from auto replay no matter what happened to actually looking at the game in question. It's a good thing.
On January 23 2010 23:20 motbob wrote: This isn't the SCOTUS. Who cares about Chill's "precedent?" Why should we worry about what has happened before as opposed to what the correct decision is right at this moment? To me, the correct decision is completely obvious, and once Baezzi's VOD of Game 3 finishes processing I'll make a long post with pictures talking about the overwhelming advantage that Jaedong had and the statistical basis for the argument against granting a regame.
Precedent matters because it's a strong indication of what the community/players/referees have considered to be fair in similar situations in the past. We can look to those decisions to remove ourselves a bit from particularities of this situation which might bias us one way or another.
Bottom line is: disconnects have usually been handled X way in the past, instead of Y way. This is good (but obviously not conclusive) evidence that X way is superior to Y way and more accurately reflects the community ethos/our conception of fairness.
As someone posted above, one things, to me, shows that precedent isn't a good thing to point to in this case. The KeSPA rulebook states that regames are a referee decision. In other words, the referee must analyze whatever game is in question and make a decision on the spot whether to award a regame or announce a winner. This implies to me that regames can be either granted or not granted, depending entirely on the content of the game.
I wrote a whole bunch of other stuff anticipating arguments against this post but I'll wait for those arguments to actually be made
On January 23 2010 23:34 BG1 wrote: Flash will probably admit himself tomorrow that he lost that game after reviewing the footage.
Everyone knows it (the people with a functioning brain anyhow). They just want a rematch because the game wasn't technically finished, not because that would be fair, but because they've seen it being done before. Especially more so for people who root for Flash considering the huge advantage Flash would have had had there been a rematch.
I don't know what to say, somebody should be fired (d@mn electric unions XD) but if ret says that JD would of won game 3 then i guess i have to agree. Everyone has to give JD props for feelin the desperation rush in game 4. gg
On January 23 2010 23:38 Predator_au wrote: I think it was 50/50...
Although JD had the 2 defilers, I dont think he had enough to push up and attempt an attack on Flash's new expo.
At the same time, Flash would not have been able to wipe out the defiler/ultra/ling/sunk at 7 due to the irads he had just used.
Too close to give the win to JD.
I had initally thought it was correct going to JD, but after watching that VOD, its 50/50 in my opinion.
JD was 4 base vs 2 and it was about to be 4 base vs 1 when Flash mined out. Flash had lost almost all his vessels. Why would JD possibly be attacking? Saying neither player could attack may be true but a draw it does not make.
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
On January 23 2010 23:34 BG1 wrote: Flash will probably admit himself tomorrow that he lost that game after reviewing the footage.
Everyone knows it (the people with a functioning brain anyhow). They just want a rematch because the game wasn't technically finished, not because that would be fair, but because they've seen it being done before. Especially more so for people who root for Flash considering the huge advantage Flash would have had had there been a rematch.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote: This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote: This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
When is a game 75% over? Honestly, when people talk about how "over" a game is its almost exclusively 50/50 or pretty much over. Perhaps 60/40 at a stretch, but really... Can you really quantify how over a game of starcraft is accurately?
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
Just out of interest. If a similar situation developed during a TSL match. Considering people are playing from home and siblings can kick out wires and so forth, it seems much more likely.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now
Look at the last 3 seconds of the vod. That line of mnm turn around and go back. 7 wasn't dying because Flash decided not to attack it. He decided not to attack it because he could see a defiler consuming lings right under his sci vessels. That defiler was very much not irradiated. Flash didn't have energy for it.
Chill probably just saw the MBC playback without the extra 30 secs of footage showing JD's 7 oclock and Flash retreating, otherwise there's no reason he and guys like Ret, Naz and Idra would have such a different opinion. They all know how this game works.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure.
Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote: This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
When is a game 75% over? Honestly, when people talk about how "over" a game is its almost exclusively 50/50 or pretty much over. Perhaps 60/40 at a stretch, but really... Can you really quantify how over a game of starcraft is accurately?
Another great question. I say that, given the situation at the time of the power outage, it's impossible to predict with enough accuracy the odds that Jaedong would win to justify awarding him the game. To argue, using probabilities, that JD should have been awarded the win, I think you'd have to show both that
1) estimate of his probability of winning the game was sufficiently high to justify awarding him the win AND that 2) that estimate has a low enough error (in Flash's direction, that is in terms of Flash's odds of winning (if that makes sense)) to make it a reasonable basis for awarding the win
Regardless of the standard we pick for 1 (95%? 99%?) I don't think that 2 will be satisfied. I mean, even if you say that JD had a 90% chance of winning and you're only willing to admit error of +-10% or something, you will run into problems because a 1/5 chance for Flash is probably too high to award JD a win.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure.
Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else.
Noone will ever know.
There was nothing coming afer 18:49, he still had units producing but he was staying at the nat and retreating the leftovers from 7:00.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
On January 23 2010 23:34 BG1 wrote: Flash will probably admit himself tomorrow that he lost that game after reviewing the footage.
Everyone knows it (the people with a functioning brain anyhow). They just want a rematch because the game wasn't technically finished, not because that would be fair, but because they've seen it being done before. Especially more so for people who root for Flash considering the huge advantage Flash would have had had there been a rematch.
*sigh* It's obvious you yourself have no bias.
Who cares about bias? What gives you the idea that bias has anything to do with the fact that a rematch would never have saved the series in the first place? Rematch would have changed everything (Jaedong having exposed what may be his only winning card on a very tough map, the psychological hit of having lost an extreme advantage etc), and it's exactly for this reason why some people insisted on a rematch, not because they have faith in the "rematch system". Don't pretend that the rematch would have been the fair thing to do, because there wasn't any solution that would have been fair to both parties. You just wanted a rematch because that was the more advantageous decision for Flash. Of course Flash was screwed over. And yes, I would have been pissed if there had been a rematch. It wouldn't have been the fair thing to do, like you pretend it to be.
On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote: This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
Theoretically this matchup would be about 50/50 from the beginning if it was restarted (not exactly but whatever), game going for Jaedong is 100/0 win for him which would mean that chance-wise giving it to Jaedong would be twice as worse. If Jaedong had about 85% chance of wining the game when the outage happened game should be given to him in 35-15 ratio?
this is the worst fuckup i've ever seen, unbeliavable crap by MBC, a power outage, a FUCKING POWER OUTAGE? bring out the guillotine and the pricks responsible for the technical setup and let the heads start a-rollin' imo, atleast then i'd get some satisfaction from this crap they pulled, a power outage because of flash's fan??? what is this mid 70's Soviet union? uuurgghhhh..
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
Still not convinced that's any better.
They weren't even basing their decision off complete information ffs =/ this simply was not the time or place to start with this. And because they decided that they would, they pissed off a shit ton of people. You rule the other way and I bet you Hwaseung doesn't storm out and delay everything for 2 hours.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure.
Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else.
Noone will ever know.
There was nothing coming afer 18:49, he still had units producing but he was staying at the nat and retreating the leftovers from 7:00.
At 18:49 you can clearly see many yellow dots being produced in Flash's main and moving out to a rally point, at the very last frame you can see one of these dots out past the yellow blob that is the natural
I think the psycological side is probably the problem, flash was probably hoping he could at least tire jaedong out, maybe they should've replayed with some form of special rule like playing for the rematch. So they would play again, if jaedong wins he gets the win and if flash wins, the game would be replayed, but this time it actually counts whereas before only jaedong could win a point and flash was playing for a rematch. So flash has to win 2, jaedong 1. My idea is bound to have tons of flaws but just a suggestion.
I dunno obv it wasnt fair but neither was replaying outright, oh well, no use crying over spilt milk i guess.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Ret I don't think you can judge it based on the map simply because they include these maps in the lineup in the first place. Just sets a silly precedent for judging future issues.
On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote: This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
Indeed. Is it worse to rob a player of a chance to make a comeback or worse to force a player to give away an advantageous position? Seems almost impossible to answer. I would tend to lean towards the former, but yeah....I don't really know =/
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
Still not convinced that's any better.
They weren't even basing their decision off complete information ffs =/ this simply was not the time or place to start with this. And because they decided that they would, they pissed off a shit ton of people. You rule the other way and I bet you Hwaseung doesn't storm out and delay everything for 2 hours.
Out of curiousity, do you contest that the decision was unfair (in terms of the solution accurately reflecting the in game situation) or do you just value consistency over fairness? Because if we have differing goalposts for success then we're not in an argument either of us can win.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote: [quote] ... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
Still not convinced that's any better.
They weren't even basing their decision off complete information ffs =/ this simply was not the time or place to start with this. And because they decided that they would, they pissed off a shit ton of people. You rule the other way and I bet you Hwaseung doesn't storm out and delay everything for 2 hours.
Out of curiousity, do you contest that the decision was unfair (in terms of the solution accurately reflecting the in game situation) or do you just value consistency over fairness? Because if we have differing goalposts for success then we're not in an argument either of us can win.
I will say that Flash was losing the game, but I don't feel like we know enough about the game to be able to call it. Such information was lost when we lost the replays. As crap as it is, I beleive it was the wrong decision on every level, and I'm surprised that so many people called it the other way. But regardless, in this thread I'm just arguing consistency.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure.
Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else.
Noone will ever know.
There was nothing coming afer 18:49, he still had units producing but he was staying at the nat and retreating the leftovers from 7:00.
At 18:49 you can clearly see many yellow dots being produced in Flash's main and moving out to a rally point, at the very last frame you can see one of these dots out past the yellow blob that is the natural
Yea obviously he has more units built and grouped at the nat but he clearly abandoned 7:00 and was moving out everything he had to defend his mineral only expansion.
What are the koreans saying about this btw? Any statement from MBC, Flash, or Jaedong? Surely they could let us know what they think of their own vod...
On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote: [quote] About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one.
No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
Still not convinced that's any better.
They weren't even basing their decision off complete information ffs =/ this simply was not the time or place to start with this. And because they decided that they would, they pissed off a shit ton of people. You rule the other way and I bet you Hwaseung doesn't storm out and delay everything for 2 hours.
Out of curiousity, do you contest that the decision was unfair (in terms of the solution accurately reflecting the in game situation) or do you just value consistency over fairness? Because if we have differing goalposts for success then we're not in an argument either of us can win.
I will say that Flash was losing the game, but I don't feel like we know enough about the game to be able to call it. Such information was lost when we lost the replays. As crap as it is, I beleive it was the wrong decision on every level, and I'm surprised that so many people called it the other way. But regardless, in this thread I'm just arguing consistency.
Then I'll agree to disagree. I've made my views about how over the game was several times over and there's nothing to be gained by repeating them.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
When every other decision has been assessed a certain way, and then suddenly you have the most important match of your life assessed in a different way (especially given the lack of information) do you not think that is a deviation in standard policy?
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings (not to mention defiler/scourge), but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
On January 24 2010 00:06 Vasoline73 wrote: What are the koreans saying about this btw? Any statement from MBC, Flash, or Jaedong? Surely they could let us know what they think of their own vod...
For the first time since I started following the Korean scene, I couldn't care less what the Korean have to say. I don't want to read netizen comments or apologies. I don't want to read interviews or progamer gossip. I don't know why.
I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
I mean, I can remember discussion surrounding the Bisu-July game for example. There were a few obvious fanboys who called for a rematch but they were shouted off the forum by the majority, which included all of the seemingly-intelligent posters and held that the refs were right to call the game. Why isn't that happening this time around?
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
Edit: On the note of ultralisks. Terran has 0 tanks. Terran had 0 firebats. Terran had 0 mines. Terran had 4 vessels with no irradiates left in them. Zerg had swarm + ultra + gas to use it. I honestly don't understand how T could hold his min only against 2 ultralisks under a swarm. And JD had more than 2 ultralisks. And the gap between them was just widening.
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
I mean, I can remember discussion surrounding the Bisu-July game for example. There were a few obvious fanboys who called for a rematch but they were shouted off the forum by the majority, which included all of the seemingly-intelligent posters and held that the refs were right to call the game. Why isn't that happening this time around?
Because it was clearly over (replay confirmed that bisu had shit all units, and no dts in particular). If Bisu had a DT then there would have been a regame, and probably a big debate about the issue. No one talked about the rainbow game because the community was smaller and it was for something like osl or msl wildcards.
On January 24 2010 00:06 Vasoline73 wrote: What are the koreans saying about this btw? Any statement from MBC, Flash, or Jaedong? Surely they could let us know what they think of their own vod...
For the first time since I started following the Korean scene, I couldn't care less what the Korean have to say. I don't want to read netizen comments or apologies. I don't want to read interviews or progamer gossip. I don't know why.
True, I guess I mean more along the lines of
"Flash: I had x and x in the bank and felt my chances of winning were xx% during the game, but after watching the VOD and talking with Jaedong I would say my chances were xx%"
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
I mean, I can remember discussion surrounding the Bisu-July game for example. There were a few obvious fanboys who called for a rematch but they were shouted off the forum by the majority, which included all of the seemingly-intelligent posters and held that the refs were right to call the game. Why isn't that happening this time around?
Because it was clearly over (replay confirmed that bisu had shit all units, and no dts in particular). If Bisu had a DT then there would have been a regame, and probably a big debate about the issue. No one talked about the rainbow game because the community was smaller and it was for something like osl or msl wildcards.
That was a rhetorical question but you made my point This game was not "clearly over".
Read back a couple pages and see if you can find any posts that would indicate the game is decided one way or the other…just an interesting test to see how people felt about the game before it became such an important issue.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
When every other decision has been assessed a certain way, and then suddenly you have the most important match of your life assessed in a different way (especially given the lack of information) do you not think that is a deviation in standard policy?
You pointed out yourself that July vs Best was decided in favor of an awarded win. This directly counters your claim that every other decision has been assessed a certain way.
Your argument just doesn't work. You can't argue that the July vs Best "doesn't count" because the game was basically over, because the definition of "basically over" is itself a judgment call! Once an exception has been made, the argument for adherence to precedent immediately evaporates.
it isnt logic and fair, what makes sc so good is because of the amazing come back games. Anything unpredictable can change tide of game, no way man this isnt right decision, SHOULD BE A REGAME! However is over , I can do nothing but only upset over KeSPA decision again just like they screw GomTV, ban Sea.Leta for just 'ppp' and many ridiculous stuff, sad .
On January 24 2010 00:10 Leath wrote: I think it is ambiguous.
Flash had his third, we could see him transfer the scvs. Flash's nat was not mined out yet.
Jaedong could just have been in a similar position. Though, we could see minerals in both his main/nat, they were gonna be mined soon, Im sure.
They would be fighting off 1 base shortly, and would depend in a lot of factors.
Jaedong seemed to be ahead, but I would not say his chance of winning were 99%, maybe 65% at best.
Jaedong had 15:00 as well... It would be 2v1 bases if they both mined out main/nat and Flash's base is a min only, no gas. Not to mention Flash just had mnms, no tanks at all, wouldn't be able to fight off swarm and plague and can't take another base with JD having full map control and expanding anywhere he wants whenever he wants.
On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote: [quote] ... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
When every other decision has been assessed a certain way, and then suddenly you have the most important match of your life assessed in a different way (especially given the lack of information) do you not think that is a deviation in standard policy?
You pointed out yourself that July vs Best was decided in favor of an awarded win. This directly counters your claim that every other decision has been assessed a certain way.
Your argument just doesn't work. You can't argue that the July vs Best "doesn't count" because the game was basically over, because the definition of "basically over" is itself a judgment call! Once an exception has been made, the argument for adherence to precedent immediately evaporates.
It's July v Bisu on Bluestorm and if you watch the game it is clearly over. If the DT got out it STILL would have been completely over but it would have been a regame regardless. Plexa is saying that if they were going to regame if the DT came out for Bisu (he would have no chance really) and Flash v JD was much much closer, then they definitely should have regamed for Flash/JD
On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote: [quote] ... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
When every other decision has been assessed a certain way, and then suddenly you have the most important match of your life assessed in a different way (especially given the lack of information) do you not think that is a deviation in standard policy?
You pointed out yourself that July vs Best was decided in favor of an awarded win. This directly counters your claim that every other decision has been assessed a certain way.
Your argument just doesn't work. You can't argue that the July vs Best "doesn't count" because the game was basically over, because the definition of "basically over" is itself a judgment call! Once an exception has been made, the argument for adherence to precedent immediately evaporates.
No, it doesn't... it further emphasizes where I'm coming from. And you mean July vs Bisu
Like I explained on page 1, if Bisu had produced a DT from his gateway then a regame would have been called. The criteria for a game being decided was an insurmountable advantage - Bisu had probes and cannons against a mass of hydra. If a DT had popped, then you can't say with 100% certainty that July would have won the game. (he probably would have, but a regame called nonetheless). Contrast this against the Rainbow/July game - where July got the regame despite being wayy behind (more so than flash imho) and still getting a regame (because he had units and an outside chance).
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
He makes his huge group of ultralisks when he has 3 bases mining gas. Then the 1o clock base gets taken out, so down to 2 gas.
The last time we see his 3rd base he has no drones or extractor there. He makes a few more ultralisks and defilers to help hold off 7 - obviously the production has slowed down/stopped. You can't spam ultralisk/defiler on 2 gas.
I think that while 7 was being fought over JD was only beginning to make drones at his 3rd.
On January 23 2010 23:48 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest. If a similar situation developed during a TSL match. Considering people are playing from home and siblings can kick out wires and so forth, it seems much more likely.
What would be the decision? 100% Rematch?
What happens if there is a disconnect?
In the event of a disconnect the referee will ask the players about what they think the result of the game should be (regame/win/loss). If both players can agree on the result then that result will stand. If both players cannot agree on the result a panel of 5 TSL staff and/or informed people will be called to make a decision. Players will have the opportunity to veto any of the members of panel beforehand if they have good reason to do so (e.g. bias). One of the following courses of action will be taken by the panel. The decision reached by the panel is final. Whether a player has disconnected or not will be determined by the TSL Anti-hack since being dropped does not necessarily mean you disconnected.
1) A disconnector can be identified
If all five people on the panel can identify an advantage for the non- disconnector he will be awarded the game. If all five people on the panel determine that the disconnecting player has the game absolutely won, the disconnector will be awarded the win. If not, a regame will be issued.
2) A disconnector cannot be identified If all five people on the panel determine that one player has the game absolutely won, he will be awarded the win. Otherwise, a regame will be issued including situations where one player has an advantage.
3) Exceptional circumstances Game and conditions will be reviewed and a decision will be made by the panel deciding the course of action to take.
4) A player is caught intentionally disconnecting himself/his opponent The player will be disqualified from the TSL, banned from all future TeamLiquid events, and will not receive any prize money.
I have to add to this that we also have the right to modify any rules and make rulings different that what is outlined in our rulebook as a rule. Of course you should not expect us to suddenly overthrow good rules but it's a little protection mechanism just in case new experiences lead us to believe our previous rules are not good.
Thus:
Flash discing we would award a loss. Jaedong discing we would award a regame. Only in case of a game being 100% over we would award a win to the non-discing player. Todays game was not 100% over.
Our rules are different from the MBC situation because an online tournament at all times has to create their rules in such a manner that you can never reward a discer. Therefor you have to be very careful with awarding wins to discing players.
On January 24 2010 00:10 Leath wrote: I think it is ambiguous.
Flash had his third, we could see him transfer the scvs. Flash's nat was not mined out yet.
Jaedong could just have been in a similar position. Though, we could see minerals in both his main/nat, they were gonna be mined soon, Im sure.
They would be fighting off 1 base shortly, and would depend in a lot of factors.
Jaedong seemed to be ahead, but I would not say his chance of winning were 99%, maybe 65% at best.
Jaedong had 15:00 as well... It would be 2v1 bases if they both mined out main/nat and Flash's base is a min only, no gas. Not to mention Flash just had mnms, no tanks at all, wouldn't be able to fight off swarm and plague and can't take another base with JD having full map control and expanding anywhere he wants whenever he wants.
Except JD needed to macro an army and while he did that Flash could establish his. :/. Even EMP could have been used well in this game. We never know what would happen BG1 which is what everyone who thinks there should have been a regame is trying to point out. It's not clear cut at all
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
Second of all, just because there is a "bunch of discussion" on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt. I mean, the HQ VOD isn't even out yet! How can people make rational decisions about the kind of advantage JD had?
For my money, 5 gas Zerg vs a Terran with maybe 4 vessels, a tiny MnM army, and 2.5 bases is a decisive advantage. But, again, the HQ VOD isn't out yet.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
He makes his huge group of ultralisks when he has 3 bases mining gas. Then the 1o clock base gets taken out, so down to 2 gas.
The last time we see his 3rd base he has no drones or extractor there. He makes a few more ultralisks and defilers to help hold off 7 - obviously the production has slowed down/stopped. You can't spam ultralisk/defiler on 2 gas.
I think that while 7 was being fought over JD was only beginning to make drones at his 3rd.
Any units made while 1 was being fought over weren't involved beyond the first few seconds of the struggle for 7. That battle was a grinder, unit production pitted against unit production, both armies rallying there. JD won the contest of unit production. You can't argue that doesn't mean much because he lost a base when that base was lost before the battle at 7. It's simply not relevant to anything.
If you think there needs to be an argument over whether July had beaten Bisu in that game that ended with Bisu disconnecting, you are seriously retarded, or have an unnatural fixation to see every game that does not end with one player conceding defeat no matter what the situation, no matter what the consequences, to be replayed from scratch.
There is no way in hell to make up the rule that is fool-proof unless you force every players to replay a game that has been crashed no matter what how big the advantage one player had, or the consequences of the rematch (strategies being exposed, one player may have more cards to play on the map than the other etc). If this is your definition of what is right, then ok, Jaedong should have played Flash again in game three.
If you think there's a line that can be drawn, then either; a) list up every scenario conceivable and write down the exact criteria for giving one player the win b) leave it up to the Kespa referees since it's their jobs
In this particular situation, the Kespa referee thought Jaedong had enough advantage in the game to win the game from cut-off point with suffice probability. Maybe you don't. Perhaps Jaedong need to place himself in a situation where it's impossible for him to lose unless he has a sudden cardiac arrest like the one July placed himself against Bisu for him to be seen as the rightful winner in your eyes, maybe it needs to be even more cut and dry so you can be REALLY sure. I really couldn't care less, because there's no way to "fix" the fuck-up, and pretending the rematch as the fair thing to do is something quite dillusional unless you have 100% faith in the "rematch-no-matter-what-the-situation" thing.
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
Second of all, just because there is a "bunch of discussion" on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt. I mean, the HQ VOD isn't even out yet! How can people make rational decisions about the kind of advantage JD had?
For my money, 5 gas Zerg vs a Terran with maybe 4 vessels, a tiny MnM army, and 2.5 bases is a decisive advantage. But, again, the HQ VOD isn't out yet.
It was 1.5 bases, not 2.5. Main was mined out a during the start of the battle for 7.
On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote: [quote] About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either.
At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before.
Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with.
The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it.
Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times.
Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing.
I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either.
Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
What? I'm trying to argue that no matter what the decision was, it didn't "deviate from policy" because uncertainty is built into the system via the "referee's decision" rule.
When every other decision has been assessed a certain way, and then suddenly you have the most important match of your life assessed in a different way (especially given the lack of information) do you not think that is a deviation in standard policy?
You pointed out yourself that July vs Best was decided in favor of an awarded win. This directly counters your claim that every other decision has been assessed a certain way.
Your argument just doesn't work. You can't argue that the July vs Best "doesn't count" because the game was basically over, because the definition of "basically over" is itself a judgment call! Once an exception has been made, the argument for adherence to precedent immediately evaporates.
No, it doesn't... it further emphasizes where I'm coming from. And you mean July vs Bisu
Like I explained on page 1, if Bisu had produced a DT from his gateway then a regame would have been called. The criteria for a game being decided was an insurmountable advantage - Bisu had probes and cannons against a mass of hydra. If a DT had popped, then you can't say with 100% certainty that July would have won the game. (he probably would have, but a regame called nonetheless). Contrast this against the Rainbow/July game - where July got the regame despite being wayy behind (more so than flash imho) and still getting a regame (because he had units and an outside chance).
Which is the July/Rainbow game in question? Do we have a VOD?
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
Second of all, just because there is a "bunch of discussion" on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt. I mean, the HQ VOD isn't even out yet! How can people make rational decisions about the kind of advantage JD had?
For my money, 5 gas Zerg vs a Terran with maybe 4 vessels, a tiny MnM army, and 2.5 bases is a decisive advantage. But, again, the HQ VOD isn't out yet.
Not having access to the players' mineral counts or an HQ VOD surely can't explain all of the controversy. Are you really suggesting that if we knew how many minerals Flash/JD had that this debate would be completely settled?
As for "Just because there is a 'bunch of discussion' on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt" … actually yes that is exactly what it means.
On January 24 2010 00:10 Leath wrote: I think it is ambiguous.
Flash had his third, we could see him transfer the scvs. Flash's nat was not mined out yet.
Jaedong could just have been in a similar position. Though, we could see minerals in both his main/nat, they were gonna be mined soon, Im sure.
They would be fighting off 1 base shortly, and would depend in a lot of factors.
Jaedong seemed to be ahead, but I would not say his chance of winning were 99%, maybe 65% at best.
Jaedong had 15:00 as well... It would be 2v1 bases if they both mined out main/nat and Flash's base is a min only, no gas. Not to mention Flash just had mnms, no tanks at all, wouldn't be able to fight off swarm and plague and can't take another base with JD having full map control and expanding anywhere he wants whenever he wants.
Except JD needed to macro an army and while he did that Flash could establish his. :/. Even EMP could have been used well in this game. We never know what would happen BG1 which is what everyone who thinks there should have been a regame is trying to point out. It's not clear cut at all
It's clear that Jaedong had a big advantage and though he hasn't won the game, how is it fair to give Flash a regame for a match he had 1% chance of winning, or even 20%. Either decision is unfair but they had to choose and they chose the lesser of two evils.
On January 23 2010 23:48 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest. If a similar situation developed during a TSL match. Considering people are playing from home and siblings can kick out wires and so forth, it seems much more likely.
In the event of a disconnect the referee will ask the players about what they think the result of the game should be (regame/win/loss). If both players can agree on the result then that result will stand. If both players cannot agree on the result a panel of 5 TSL staff and/or informed people will be called to make a decision. Players will have the opportunity to veto any of the members of panel beforehand if they have good reason to do so (e.g. bias). One of the following courses of action will be taken by the panel. The decision reached by the panel is final. Whether a player has disconnected or not will be determined by the TSL Anti-hack since being dropped does not necessarily mean you disconnected.
1) A disconnector can be identified
If all five people on the panel can identify an advantage for the non- disconnector he will be awarded the game. If all five people on the panel determine that the disconnecting player has the game absolutely won, the disconnector will be awarded the win. If not, a regame will be issued.
2) A disconnector cannot be identified If all five people on the panel determine that one player has the game absolutely won, he will be awarded the win. Otherwise, a regame will be issued including situations where one player has an advantage.
3) Exceptional circumstances Game and conditions will be reviewed and a decision will be made by the panel deciding the course of action to take.
4) A player is caught intentionally disconnecting himself/his opponent The player will be disqualified from the TSL, banned from all future TeamLiquid events, and will not receive any prize money.
I have to add to this that we also have the right to modify any rules and make rulings different that what is outlined in our rulebook as a rule. Of course you should not expect us to suddenly overthrow good rules but it's a little protection mechanism just in case new experiences lead us to believe our previous rules are not good.
Thus:
Flash discing we would award a loss. Jaedong discing we would award a regame. Only in case of a game being 100% over we would award a win to the non-discing player. Todays game was not 100% over.
Our rules are different from the MBC situation because an online tournament at all times has to create their rules in such a manner that you can never reward a discer. Therefor you have to be very careful with awarding wins to discing players.
TSL has clear rules and I'm sure any decision implementing them would be explained fully…
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
We dont' know those exist. I presume they were only able to get the vod footage because it was streamed. i.e. as in obs sent that information to a relay where it was recorded and distributed before the power went out. The extra 30s footage is probably down to an inbuilt delay.
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
Second of all, just because there is a "bunch of discussion" on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt. I mean, the HQ VOD isn't even out yet! How can people make rational decisions about the kind of advantage JD had?
For my money, 5 gas Zerg vs a Terran with maybe 4 vessels, a tiny MnM army, and 2.5 bases is a decisive advantage. But, again, the HQ VOD isn't out yet.
Not having access to the players' mineral counts or an HQ VOD surely can't explain all of the controversy. Are you really suggesting that if we knew how many minerals Flash/JD had that this debate would be completely settled?
As for "Just because there is a 'bunch of discussion' on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt" … actually yes that is exactly what it means.
Of course I'm not saying that mineral/gas counts would completely settle the matter. But that might have reduced the "uncertainty and controversy" in the KeSPA refs' minds, helping them to make a decision.
And "discussion and debate" doesn't mean shit if it's uninformed, which it currently is, on both sides. I just want to note that ret was the only person on TL who noticed that JD had finished a 5th gas right before the disconnect. He was able to see that *crucial* fact because he had the luxury of seeing a HQ version of what we were all seeing. If you go to youtube and watch the VOD, the incredibly important piece of the puzzle that is the 5th gas is unnoticeable. You have to be looking for it, because the observer never looks at it and you have to use the pixilated minimap.
On January 24 2010 00:09 JWD wrote: I think the amount of debate over the specifics of the game just settles that it should not have been called by the refs. When this much uncertainty and controversy remains over a game's outcome, surely it ought to be replayed?
First of all, the KeSPA people had access to information we did not: the FPviews of the players. They knew the mineral count of each, and that may have led them to a decision. We don't really know.
Second of all, just because there is a "bunch of discussion" on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt. I mean, the HQ VOD isn't even out yet! How can people make rational decisions about the kind of advantage JD had?
For my money, 5 gas Zerg vs a Terran with maybe 4 vessels, a tiny MnM army, and 2.5 bases is a decisive advantage. But, again, the HQ VOD isn't out yet.
Not having access to the players' mineral counts or an HQ VOD surely can't explain all of the controversy. Are you really suggesting that if we knew how many minerals Flash/JD had that this debate would be completely settled?
As for "Just because there is a 'bunch of discussion' on this game doesn't mean that the outcome was heavily in doubt" … actually yes that is exactly what it means.
I think this isn't settled because a lot of people haven't seen the last 30 seconds that wasn't shown on the replay on the stream and a lot more people just can't tell ass from elbow. Marines and medics cannot take down ultralisks with that much armour and swarm support. They need a high vessel count, or tanks, or mines, or firebats or all of the above. Flash didn't have any of these. It's wishful thinking, ignorance or lack of study of the vod that causes the debate about who was winning. Flash did a 2 base allin which shows massive amounts of unit production and cool shit and flashy lights and all that activity makes him look really strong to a casual observer. But a less casual observer will recognise that once it's blocked it's over. The next five minutes of the game would not have seen the same kind of unit production as the five before. JD had weathered the storm and emerged on the other side with 5 gases and map control.
The real debate is whether it's right to give the win here or give a replay. Yes, there are people arguing that Flash was winning. But I remember having an argument on tl with someone convinced that because the toxic dose of fluoride was dangerous the safe dose was also dangerous. Some people just don't know anything.
On January 24 2010 00:10 Leath wrote: I think it is ambiguous.
Flash had his third, we could see him transfer the scvs. Flash's nat was not mined out yet.
Jaedong could just have been in a similar position. Though, we could see minerals in both his main/nat, they were gonna be mined soon, Im sure.
They would be fighting off 1 base shortly, and would depend in a lot of factors.
Jaedong seemed to be ahead, but I would not say his chance of winning were 99%, maybe 65% at best.
Jaedong had 15:00 as well... It would be 2v1 bases if they both mined out main/nat and Flash's base is a min only, no gas. Not to mention Flash just had mnms, no tanks at all, wouldn't be able to fight off swarm and plague and can't take another base with JD having full map control and expanding anywhere he wants whenever he wants.
Except JD needed to macro an army and while he did that Flash could establish his. :/. Even EMP could have been used well in this game. We never know what would happen BG1 which is what everyone who thinks there should have been a regame is trying to point out. It's not clear cut at all
It's clear that Jaedong had a big advantage and though he hasn't won the game, how is it fair to give Flash a regame for a match he had 1% chance of winning, or even 20%. Either decision is unfair but they had to choose and they chose the lesser of two evils.
Like Fakesteve said, you don't give a free game in the finals, it's just retarded. Flash definitely had closer to 20% than 1% in winning and that's why people are arguing about it. Giving a un-won game to a player because of a disconnect in the MSL finals is just foolish, especially when like Plexa has been saying everytime something like this has happened they've regamed. There's a reason that KT was so pissed and that Oz wouldn't have been if there was a regame...
I think Kespa made the best possible decision. Jaedong had a huge advantage in that game and it would be even more unfair to Jaedong if there was to be a rematch. Obviously, giving the win to Jaedong was also unfair too (and pissed off lots of people too, which I understand), but given the circumstances it was the most logical decision. You just can't deny the advantage Jaedong had. I'm sure it was possible for Flash to make a comeback (hell, I would love to see that) but unfortunately we will never know.
Ideally, there shouldn't be a power outage at all. FUCK.
On January 24 2010 00:33 KwarK wrote: The real debate is whether it's right to give the win here or give a replay. Yes, there are people arguing that Flash was winning. But I remember having an argument on tl with someone convinced that because the toxic dose of fluoride was dangerous the safe dose was also dangerous. Some people just don't know anything.
Completely agreed over this part, based on your posts (plus Nazgul, ret, IdrA, etc.) there is no way that Flash was winning. But the margin of JD's lead being so in dispute obviously goes to the "real debate" here. And even amongst the posters who clearly know what they are talking about, there is disagreement over whether Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
He makes his huge group of ultralisks when he has 3 bases mining gas. Then the 1o clock base gets taken out, so down to 2 gas.
The last time we see his 3rd base he has no drones or extractor there. He makes a few more ultralisks and defilers to help hold off 7 - obviously the production has slowed down/stopped. You can't spam ultralisk/defiler on 2 gas.
I think that while 7 was being fought over JD was only beginning to make drones at his 3rd.
Any units made while 1 was being fought over weren't involved beyond the first few seconds of the struggle for 7. That battle was a grinder, unit production pitted against unit production, both armies rallying there. JD won the contest of unit production. You can't argue that doesn't mean much because he lost a base when that base was lost before the battle at 7. It's simply not relevant to anything.
The units (mass of ultras) JD used to defend his 3rd base and 7 were the same ones made while the 3rd gas was up, he only made a few more (but mostly cracklings and defiler) to reinforce that army. I think the effect of 3gas vs. 2gas is pretty relevant to unit production. Also, at the last shot we have of JD's natural, it isn't even very saturated.
He makes ultralisks after he lost his 1o clock but only 3 or so. You can tell the last ultralisks come only after he starts mining gas from his 7.
On January 24 2010 00:33 KwarK wrote: The real debate is whether it's right to give the win here or give a replay. Yes, there are people arguing that Flash was winning. But I remember having an argument on tl with someone convinced that because the toxic dose of fluoride was dangerous the safe dose was also dangerous. Some people just don't know anything.
Completely agreed over this part, based on your posts (plus Nazgul, ret, IdrA, etc.) there is no way that Flash was winning. But the margin of JD's lead being so in dispute obviously goes to the "real debate" here. And even amongst the posters who clearly know what they are talking about, there is disagreement over whether Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
I would be very surprised if Chill didn't conclude that JD was a long way ahead after watching the vod (and the last 30 seconds where Flash calls off his attack on 7 after JD rapes 20 more mnm). He knows enough about ZvT to know that ultras with swarm are imba and without tanks/mine/irradiate/firebats there's no way Flash could hold that 3rd. Everything was up in the air til just before the disc, Flash could still have maybe broken 7 etc but at the second of the disc the dust had settled and the outcome was clear. Obviously I don't expect him to change his mind about replay vs win but I would be shocked if any poster who knows what they're talking about can legitimately argue that Flash could hold off ultras under swarms from 5 gas.
Fully agree with Naz and Ret. Thankfully a lot of people still have their heads on their shoulders.
Sometimes you're dealt an unfortunate situation and you have to deal with it as best you can. I am of the opinion that this is what KeSPA did. I am also of the opinion that this is not what the KT team (Flash's dad included) did. But that's besides the point I guess.
lol either way this isnt a fair decision, because we dont have all the info (only the people watching the live stream can debate this in its entirety). im not saying anything because I dont have a good understanding of TvZ to say anything. But atleast KESPA did SOMETHING other than postpone the series. Now THAT would have sucked XD
EDIT: but I think a re game would have been fair. Cuz even in the bleakest of situations, the best players some how manage to scrap a win.
On January 24 2010 00:10 Leath wrote: I think it is ambiguous.
Flash had his third, we could see him transfer the scvs. Flash's nat was not mined out yet.
Jaedong could just have been in a similar position. Though, we could see minerals in both his main/nat, they were gonna be mined soon, Im sure.
They would be fighting off 1 base shortly, and would depend in a lot of factors.
Jaedong seemed to be ahead, but I would not say his chance of winning were 99%, maybe 65% at best.
Jaedong had 15:00 as well... It would be 2v1 bases if they both mined out main/nat and Flash's base is a min only, no gas. Not to mention Flash just had mnms, no tanks at all, wouldn't be able to fight off swarm and plague and can't take another base with JD having full map control and expanding anywhere he wants whenever he wants.
Except JD needed to macro an army and while he did that Flash could establish his. :/. Even EMP could have been used well in this game. We never know what would happen BG1 which is what everyone who thinks there should have been a regame is trying to point out. It's not clear cut at all
It's clear that Jaedong had a big advantage and though he hasn't won the game, how is it fair to give Flash a regame for a match he had 1% chance of winning, or even 20%. Either decision is unfair but they had to choose and they chose the lesser of two evils.
Like Fakesteve said, you don't give a free game in the finals, it's just retarded. Flash definitely had closer to 20% than 1% in winning and that's why people are arguing about it. Giving a un-won game to a player because of a disconnect in the MSL finals is just foolish, especially when like Plexa has been saying everytime something like this has happened they've regamed. There's a reason that KT was so pissed and that Oz wouldn't have been if there was a regame...
Why does Flash deserve a new 50:50 game (not counting map imbalance) when he lost? Why does JD need to be punished for a game he won? If I'm Flash, I'll see the game footage, I will see that I clearly lost it and though it was a tough decision, as respect for my fellow gamer I'll admit that he had that game won. I'm not even really going to argue about this anymore because most likely Flash will come out and say this himself tomorrow and if he doesn't, his fellow progamers will. In the heat of the moment people don't always see clearly but when the dust settles I don't think Flash will mind this decision that much. He will however be dissapointed how it affected his play in game 4 (if it did) and what could've been.
On January 24 2010 00:33 KwarK wrote: The real debate is whether it's right to give the win here or give a replay. Yes, there are people arguing that Flash was winning. But I remember having an argument on tl with someone convinced that because the toxic dose of fluoride was dangerous the safe dose was also dangerous. Some people just don't know anything.
Completely agreed over this part, based on your posts (plus Nazgul, ret, IdrA, etc.) there is no way that Flash was winning. But the margin of JD's lead being so in dispute obviously goes to the "real debate" here. And even amongst the posters who clearly know what they are talking about, there is disagreement over whether Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
I don't think people even agreed on how much of an advantage Jaedong would need in the first place. I personally thought Jaedong had it pretty much won, and although I'm not sure how what criteria one person needs to fullfill for everyone to be pleased, I'm getting the idea that some people are arguing for a rematch simply because they themselves failed to see who was in the leading position at the point of the crash.
Jesus, just because some people can't see it doesn't mean the advantage was not clear. At least Jaedong had his well-upgraded ultralisks to take back the map control to set up expansions when he was at a disadvantage (which he did). What was Flash going to do? Start pumping mass vessels from scratch? Start massing tanks off one expansion that he didn't even secure? Use his puny marine medic force with minimal vessel support to take out that expansion as SO many people are keen to point out (against well upgrades ultralisks with defiler support that SK Terran is naturally weak against)? Hope for Jaedong to have a predisposition for stroke?
I refuse to believe that a rematch is called for unless every viewer can distinguish the winner from the moment of crash. Why do we need referees if everyone can plainly see the obvious? Either you replay every game that ends with a crash, or just go with the decisions. I don't see what was so horrendous about this one. Unless you believe that Jaedong needed to have swarms all over Flash's base with 50 ultralisks.
A rematch would've been much more unfair. Imagine if Flash would've won 3-2 after winning a rematch on this unbalanced TvZ map. That trophy wouldn't even be 50% his and yet it would be standing by his bed. THAT would suck, for both Flash and Jaedong.
And if the ref chooses to steal JD the win.. it's still the rules. Bleh.. what a sad sad finals it was.. I sure wish there was something else to memorise that "epic" battle with..
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
He makes his huge group of ultralisks when he has 3 bases mining gas. Then the 1o clock base gets taken out, so down to 2 gas.
The last time we see his 3rd base he has no drones or extractor there. He makes a few more ultralisks and defilers to help hold off 7 - obviously the production has slowed down/stopped. You can't spam ultralisk/defiler on 2 gas.
I think that while 7 was being fought over JD was only beginning to make drones at his 3rd.
Any units made while 1 was being fought over weren't involved beyond the first few seconds of the struggle for 7. That battle was a grinder, unit production pitted against unit production, both armies rallying there. JD won the contest of unit production. You can't argue that doesn't mean much because he lost a base when that base was lost before the battle at 7. It's simply not relevant to anything.
The units (mass of ultras) JD used to defend his 3rd base and 7 were the same ones made while the 3rd gas was up, he only made a few more (but mostly cracklings and defiler) to reinforce that army. I think the effect of 3gas vs. 2gas is pretty relevant to unit production. Also, at the last shot we have of JD's natural, it isn't even very saturated.
He makes ultralisks after he lost his 1o clock but only 3 or so. You can tell the last ultralisks come only after he starts mining gas from his 7.
I believe JD had no problem with sustaining unit production. Remember also, that he was able to save around 7-8 drones from the 1 o'clock base while Flash took it down. These also had to go somewhere and should add up to the good saturated main and natural. Probably at 3 o'clock, maybe we can see this on th HD video.
I'm surprised this hasn't already been asked, but is it possible the power outage was staged by MBC to create controversy over their MSL Final? People commented on their unprofessionalism when FlaSh's image appeared during Game 3 of Jaedong v KaL. I wonder if MBC would do such a thing..
On January 24 2010 00:57 sjon03 wrote: I'm surprised this hasn't already been asked, but is it possible the power outage was staged by MBC to create controversy over their MSL Final? People commented on their unprofessionalism when FlaSh's image appeared during Game 3 of Jaedong v KaL. I wonder if MBC would do such a thing..
Just watched the VOD he literally had 5 gas fully mining. Both gasses on 7 were both built and also occupied with 3 drones each. You got a 5 gas Zerg with defiler and fully upgraded ultras and a good economy against a pure m&m Terran from soon to be one base. Who was putting every last effort he had into breaking the double gas because he knew it would be over if he couldn't break it.
Flash' natural mines out bit before Jaedongs main you could argue it's around the same time. That makes it a 3 (5 gas) base vs 1 (2 gas) base Terran. Considering Zergs useful gas units are replaced instantly and vessels need more time to put their worth into the game I dunno how you can say he had a real shot at coming back from this. Ultras from 5 hatches combined with the defilers would be running into the base at 9 literally 1 minute after the crash. I dunno if you've ever tried stopping a swarm/ultra army with 3 vessels and no tanks but if you have you probably know your chances of success.
Best decision that could've been made in a shitty situation. I'm a huge flash fan but can recognize the game was effectively lost once he pulled back from the bottom left leaving JD on 5 gas vs minimal vessel/tank support and similar upgrades. Anyone who knows anything about TvZ should be able to recognize that with equal skilled players there was no way the terran could win barring the match turning into a ridiculously epic comeback/JD having a seizure.
On January 24 2010 00:57 sjon03 wrote: I'm surprised this hasn't already been asked, but is it possible the power outage was staged by MBC to create controversy over their MSL Final? People commented on their unprofessionalism when FlaSh's image appeared during Game 3 of Jaedong v KaL. I wonder if MBC would do such a thing..
lolooooolololllllllllllll
conspiracy theorists know no bounds
I don't mean to theorize a conspiracy, I would just like to know whether or not anyone else thought this could have been staged. I hope it wasn't!
I'd just like to say I think the descision Kespa made to award JD the win was the right one. He was playing on a T favored map...in a very very favorable position after having overcome all the imbalances that make this map so hard to play ZvT on.
On January 24 2010 00:57 sjon03 wrote: I'm surprised this hasn't already been asked, but is it possible the power outage was staged by MBC to create controversy over their MSL Final? People commented on their unprofessionalism when FlaSh's image appeared during Game 3 of Jaedong v KaL. I wonder if MBC would do such a thing..
FUCK KOREAN STARCRAFT. They are clearing one of the world's leading country's in technology and they can't use a UPS system to give 1 minute of power to the two computers whilst they turn the power back on??? Something is VERY fishy indeed.
Oh and by the way.. to whomever is saying, "he was in the lead he deserved it", shame on you. Everyone knows in starcraft things can turn 360 degrees in a matter of 30 seconds. Come on now. Kespa's rules' need refining and whoever is the IT guy for these events should be fired. And molested.. a little bit.
On January 24 2010 01:08 pedduck wrote: Not so clever logic there..
I don't agree with using this logic to apply to decisions because it is way too much of a grey area and rules and decisions need to be kept out of grey areas as much as possible, but if you could BY FACT state the balance of a maps it definitely plays a role. For example if a map is 50-50 one guy is ahead 70/30 rematching would put him back 20% and giving him a win would put him up 30%. If the map is 40/60 in his disadvantage rematching puts him back 30% and giving him the win puts him up 30%. It's not really relevant for todays discussion because I think opinions about map balance will always go back and forth too much to reach consensus. The line of thought however is perfectly fine.
In my own opinion, you don't give out a win to a player if external factors come into play. People are saying that Jaedong had four bases and Flash was only on a mineral nat, but it seemed obvious to me, that reading the thread, Flash not only had an army being pumped out, Jaedong had limited amounts of units and had not yet fully saturated his bases. Even if he had saved drones (like someone here said), I'm guessing it takes a couple of rounds of minerals to properly reap the rewards of expansion.
I can't give a definitive advantage, so I'm just going to argue pure theoretics.
In finals of any sports, giving out a win to someone because there was an external factor that terminated the game is just absurd. Regardless of whether or not it happens, it's not fair to either player. Jaedong doesn't get the glory that he deserves, and Flash doesn't get the chance to prove that he could have (no matter how infeasible) won that game. In a TvZ that he played on Match Point, it seemed clear that he was losing (it was one of the Day[9] Daily's), but he managed to hang on for an extended period of time.
The finals, yes, are about winning, but it's also based upon entertainment value. What will people be saying about the MSL finals three years from now?
"Oh, fucked up piece of shit. MBC handed out a game and we didn't get the epic finals that we were waiting for."
The argument I'm making here, is NOT that I favor one player or the other. Rather, for the pure entertainment value of it all, give out the regame. Granted, yes, Jaedong fans are going to be pissed because they felt that Jaedong had an advantage. But Flash fans will be just as pissed that they thought Flash might have had a chance in that game too.
This was the final that everyone was waiting for, and regardless who won, I'm sure that people could agree that this was highly anticipated and everyone wanted a 3-2 victory for their respective players. Why? Because that's what makes finals FUN. They're long, they're extended, they've got kickass moves.
Seeing Flash lose all mental focus because of at least an hour of arguing and bickering just saddens me. Flash has a lot of potential to just come back and win on Game 4, but he seemed to have stopped caring with what...that 2rax cheese or something?
Regardless. If Jaedong could have won on Eye of the Storm, then he could do it again. It's unfair to say that because Jaedong had to deal with map imbalance, he should be given the game, or because Jaedong had an advantage he should have been given the game. I mean, what quantifies map imbalance, and then after that, what quantifies an advantage?
I have to remind you guys that after the power outage the Kespa people said, and I'm quoting here
''after looking at the players mineral,gas and supply and looking at the fact that JD had 2 defilers and ultras at his 7 base we decided to award Lee jaedong the win''
meaning Kespa did have access to those information
it was not fair but a rematch would had been the worst decision in e-sports history no matter what flash fanboys say
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote: This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
Exactly. Flash was still producing 3/3 units whereas Jaedong's 3rd and 4th bases didn't have a high drone count and couldn't keep producing ultralisks at the rate he had before to protect 7. Jaedong used most of his larva and resources on ultralisks and cracklings, but you can't sustain that ultralisk production with the econ he had.
Why couldn't he keep up the same rate of production as he was before. He hasn't lost access to any minerals nor lost any drones. His income would either be the same if the situation was unchanged or better if he'd made some more drones (we don't know). Saying that he couldn't sustain his production, despite there being no decrease in his income, makes absolutely no sense. It's just wishful thinking.
He makes his huge group of ultralisks when he has 3 bases mining gas. Then the 1o clock base gets taken out, so down to 2 gas.
The last time we see his 3rd base he has no drones or extractor there. He makes a few more ultralisks and defilers to help hold off 7 - obviously the production has slowed down/stopped. You can't spam ultralisk/defiler on 2 gas.
I think that while 7 was being fought over JD was only beginning to make drones at his 3rd.
Any units made while 1 was being fought over weren't involved beyond the first few seconds of the struggle for 7. That battle was a grinder, unit production pitted against unit production, both armies rallying there. JD won the contest of unit production. You can't argue that doesn't mean much because he lost a base when that base was lost before the battle at 7. It's simply not relevant to anything.
The units (mass of ultras) JD used to defend his 3rd base and 7 were the same ones made while the 3rd gas was up, he only made a few more (but mostly cracklings and defiler) to reinforce that army. I think the effect of 3gas vs. 2gas is pretty relevant to unit production. Also, at the last shot we have of JD's natural, it isn't even very saturated.
He makes ultralisks after he lost his 1o clock but only 3 or so. You can tell the last ultralisks come only after he starts mining gas from his 7.
I believe JD had no problem with sustaining unit production. Remember also, that he was able to save around 7-8 drones from the 1 o'clock base while Flash took it down. These also had to go somewhere and should add up to the good saturated main and natural. Probably at 3 o'clock, maybe we can see this on th HD video.
I'm pretty sure those drones were killed. He sent them away and I was following them on the mini map, but then the medic marine stimmed after the drones (to the third) and then it cut to Flash's face, then when it went back to the game Flash at the 3rd and the drones weren't in sight, so I'm pretty sure he killed them.
I don't see the 5 gas people are talking about, maybe I'm missing something but last we see there are no extractor or drones at the 3rd and at the 7 there are 2 extractors but we only see 1 being mined from it with like 4 other drones mining minerals. So that's the potential for 4 gas with the gas at the main running low. But a couple of people have said 5 gas so I could very well be wrong.
Also to note, JD's natural isn't very well saturated at all (last we see).
On January 24 2010 01:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just watched the VOD he literally had 5 gas fully mining. Both gasses on 7 were both built and also occupied with 3 drones each. You got a 5 gas Zerg with defiler and fully upgraded ultras and a good economy against a pure m&m Terran from soon to be one base. Who was putting every last effort he had into breaking the double gas because he knew it would be over if he couldn't break it.
Flash' natural mines out bit before Jaedongs main you could argue it's around the same time. That makes it a 3 (5 gas) base vs 1 (3 gas) base Terran. Considering Zergs useful gas units are replaced instantly and vessels need more time to put their worth into the game I dunno how you can say he had a real shot at coming back from this. Ultras from 5 hatches combined with the defilers would be running into the base at 9 literally 1 minute after the crash. I dunno if you've ever tried stopping a swarm/ultra army with 3 vessels and no tanks but if you have you probably know your chances of success.
2 gas Terran. Flash took the mineral only expo.
Jaedong did not yet mine the 2nd gas at 7, but I don't think it makes a difference.
In the last 2-3 minutes Jaedong was producing on average 4 ultras / minute.
Jaedong needs to only hold for anther 1-2 minutes max before coming up with an entire control group of ultras to run over flash. Jaedong at that point had about 4 ultras under his control.
Flash ran out of steam. He had at most 2 groups of marines rather than the 5 groups throughout the game. The moment Flash could no longer break the 7 o clock expo Flash was forced to play DEFENSIVE.
There is no more pushing out. No tanks, no vulture / mines, and only half a dozen science vessels. If Flash could no longer push out within the next 2 minutes to destroy expos, than it's over.
Zergneedsfood, I don't think you watched the same vod as us. In our vod Flash scouted JD's defences and retreated his single control group army away from them.
On January 24 2010 01:12 Weaponx3 wrote: Would going straight to set 5 been a better decision>? like just give them both wins for that game and move on to the 5th game tied 2-2?>
That's basically the same as a rematch on Odd-Eye minus the preparation and balance issues. No, it would not have been a better decision.
On January 24 2010 01:16 DyEnasTy wrote: So what are the results of the entire final?
On January 24 2010 00:57 sjon03 wrote: I'm surprised this hasn't already been asked, but is it possible the power outage was staged by MBC to create controversy over their MSL Final? People commented on their unprofessionalism when FlaSh's image appeared during Game 3 of Jaedong v KaL. I wonder if MBC would do such a thing..
mate, this incident was clearly staged and induced by north-korean spies who hope to throw south-korea into a civil war resulting out of the general confusion and anger caused by the KESPA decision.
It's a difficult issue - whether to regame or not. For the sake of fairness, I agree with ret's point of view - Jaedong had a convincing lead. However, what could have been an utterly epic clash between the two greatest giants of Starcraft turned out be a most anti-climactic one. Sadly, it's tainted by this power outage-issue. From that standpoint, they should have replayed the match. Touch call =/
On January 24 2010 01:15 KwarK wrote: Zergneedsfood, I don't think you watched the same vod as us. In our vod Flash scouted JD's defences and retreated his single control group army away from them.
Oh. I wasn't talking about Flash attacking stuff.....
I merely read the thread and watched part of the VOD.
I guess I was just arguing on the grounds that it's not about who has a clear definite advantage or not (because I honestly don't want to decide who, because I could very well be wrong), it's about giving out the entertainment value that a tournament like the MSL deserves. It's great to think that people who were in the lead won, but come on....
A 3-1 victory like this? It could have easily been avoided and people would be more content with the fact the 4th games would have been much more exciting....
Then that brings in the question if Jaedong loses.......lulz
Unfortunate circumstances, but I would have to ultimately agree with the decision that they made. It just sucks because this set will be forever tainted as will the results
I thought this news post was gonna address all the matches, instead i just got confused when i opened up TL and found out they were only talking about game 3.
On January 24 2010 01:31 ZeroCartin wrote: I thought this news post was gonna address all the matches, instead i just got confused when i opened up TL and found out they were only talking about game 3.
Yeah, Jaedong won the fourth set after flash played some weird 2 rax allin thing.
My opinion is that Jaedong was clearly in a huge lead and it would be just about impossible for Flash (despite him being overall the best now) to come back especially against great player like Jaedong. The rematch would really put JD into big disadvantage compared to the situtation he was in game 3 (game won 95% - Flash really had nothing to fight JD and running out of resources). Anyways the FINAL was a joke for me and i am sorry for the players
Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
That being said i must say one more thing-we will never find out who deserved to win but what can you do.Im a Flash fan but you don't have to swear at JD he played straight and it wasn't his fault that te refs are stupid.Also i think JD played perfect in the first game!
I think the decision of kespa was right. The more i think about it and with the VOD avaible I'm getting more and more safe in my opinion.
That in mind I think the real tragedy is what happened after the decision which totally fucked flash's mental state. I don't lose the feeling jaedong got a kind of freewin in set 4 because of the this.
The best think to do would've been watching the vod (no replay avaible) with the players (and only the players!), explaining them why jaedong got the win/asking them about the opinion and go on with the set 4.
The KESPA ref had to choose between a regame, which wouldn't do justice to Jaedong or handing Jaedong the game which would be unfair to Flash because he lost what little shot of a comeback he had. You can't blame KESPA this time, they were forced to make a difficult decision due to an unfortunate circumstance. If anything, MBC is at fault here for failing to maintain its studio.
First i think this is MSL fault, i think kespa's desition was right, BUT the whole thing never should have happen. Why i think kespa was right, im comparing to other sports, for instance tennis if a game is cancelled, long enough that it cannot be continued the match goes for the one who was winning, even when in tennis comeback is always possible.
Second, this adds so much to the JD/Flash rivalrie... this rivalrie is becoming really epic. I mean, before this they were tied. Previus series was won by a "cheese" (much more game-related than kespa's choice) but still controversial in terms of player skill.
On January 24 2010 01:54 Inzek wrote: Second, this adds so much to the JD/Flash rivalrie... this rivalrie is becoming really epic. I mean, before this they were tied.
I thought about this too. There's little doubt now that Jaedong vs Flash is the hottest rivalry, period. And I'm lovin' it.
On January 24 2010 02:01 checo wrote: just gay so damn anticlimatic, flash should have refuse to play game 4 just like that.
And then later than evening when he watches the vod and calms down somewhat he'll remember that the 2nd place prize he walked away from was 20,000,000 won.
Nazgul really sums it up well. The Black out sucks yes! but that dosn't stop the fact that Flash was in a REALLY bad spot. I agree that the game was heavily in JD's favor, and making them RE on a map where JD had a large advantage would have been a worse decision.
I just posted int he Tourney thread requesting an official outlet for public reaction.. about 2 seconds afterward, here it is on the front page. Thanks Atrioc!
There is one argument that I feel has not been given enough attention. And there is one assumption that is assumed behind most of the arguments here. Is the fact that a regame would mean a 50-50 situation for both players,however, this is clearly untrue. If you paid attention to JD's builds this entire series and especially this set, they were all set up ( and brilliant mind games by JD I might say) to hard counter whatever JD predicted Flash would do, and he did a optimal build at each set in reaction.
The thing is, the build JD used and probably prepared 80% of the time for on this map is not one that can be repeated, its a one time build. JD went 3hat before pool, which is the 14cc equivalent for Z in this mu except its a lot more risky. To proceed by choosing to opt for a hidden base + Crazy Zerg style, its a extremely gimmicky build, and Flash could hardcounter it many times. Not only that JD had to comeback from a huge deficit after losing his 3rd, he played the game of his life and got ahead SIGNIFICANTLY. Not a 75% to 25% lead, but a 90% lead, he secured 4 bases with 5 gas while expoing to a 5th base while as Flash has been running on 6 mineral patches and 2 depleted geysers.He can only pump what? 3-4rax + 1port max with that econ?
You might say that Flash had a 10% chance of winning that game and therefore a re should occur. But consider this situation from JD's perspective, he has the game in the bag for sure and by the largest chance he has it won in the next 2 minutes, 9:1 ratio of winning, so you decide to give him a re and give Flash a 6/7:4 ratio of winning? How fair is that? Thats completely unfair and from a very basic game theory perspective by any rational standards completely unfair considering the mind games and the one time nature of builds used in bo5s. The build JD used is not one that can be repeated.
This is not a 50-50 situation as many suppose here. Flash gains a lot more from the re than JD, from an completely lost game to a game where you are ahead by reading the build your opponent prepared zealously for beforehand and can counter on a extremely imbalanced map(Odd eye is basically tiamat 2.0 due to the difficulty of securing your expos due to their structure, and the only option is a 2hat muta contain build, and if you watched zergs games vs MnM on that map they tend to opt for 2hat muta into 3base 4gas gaurd all ins).
This is a lose-lose situation for both players, but JD had A LOT more to lose from that re compared to Flash and Kespa have made the proper decision by considering the situation and props to them for that.
I confess to being a JD fan and I had a write up planned in case JD won the finals to confirm his Bonjwahood(which sadly has to be delayed due to this incident.). But if you analyze and rewatch the game with a cool head and consider the nature of mind games in bo5s you'll realize this is a rational choice.
the match was very much in the favor in the favor of JD.but i don't know if it was the right decision to award him the win even if he was ahead.i mean if it were a proleague match or a group match of MSL then i guess there wouldn't have been much argument.but when it's the finals and the steaks being so high i don't think so.the best thing would have been to just restart even if was against JD's favour.
On January 24 2010 00:33 KwarK wrote: The real debate is whether it's right to give the win here or give a replay. Yes, there are people arguing that Flash was winning. But I remember having an argument on tl with someone convinced that because the toxic dose of fluoride was dangerous the safe dose was also dangerous. Some people just don't know anything.
Completely agreed over this part, based on your posts (plus Nazgul, ret, IdrA, etc.) there is no way that Flash was winning. But the margin of JD's lead being so in dispute obviously goes to the "real debate" here. And even amongst the posters who clearly know what they are talking about, there is disagreement over whether Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
I would be very surprised if Chill didn't conclude that JD was a long way ahead after watching the vod (and the last 30 seconds where Flash calls off his attack on 7 after JD rapes 20 more mnm). He knows enough about ZvT to know that ultras with swarm are imba and without tanks/mine/irradiate/firebats there's no way Flash could hold that 3rd. Everything was up in the air til just before the disc, Flash could still have maybe broken 7 etc but at the second of the disc the dust had settled and the outcome was clear. Obviously I don't expect him to change his mind about replay vs win but I would be shocked if any poster who knows what they're talking about can legitimately argue that Flash could hold off ultras under swarms from 5 gas.
Yea, I just rewatched the VOD and JD was ahead but I still don't feel right about the decision. I like giving the win only if it's obvious one player can't lose.
It's an unfortunate situation, but clearly awarding the game to Jaedong was less wrong than calling a regame, and was within the scope of their stated rules. If this is not consistent with decisions from 2 or 5 years ago, then I'm glad they had a better ref this time around.
EDIT: I actually feel really bad for NATE. They're one of SK's biggest internet portals and they've sponsored two starleagues, but they both ended up catastrophes. The first NATE league was an OSL I think, a long time ago (2002?), and a lot of the favorites were eliminated early, resulting in a Sync vs. HOT-Forever final. South Korea was also hosting the World Cup, so no one really cared about Sync and HOT-Forever.
Not sure what is dumber, the fact that they didn't re-game or that they didn't have UPS as backup. If the blackout happened earlier right after Flash took out JD's 1 o'clock, would you agree that the game would be awarded to Flash instead?
On January 24 2010 02:34 Sepiraph wrote: Not sure what is dumber, the fact that they didn't re-game or that they didn't have UPS as backup. If the blackout happened earlier right after Flash took out JD's 1 o'clock, would you agree that the game would be awarded to Flash instead?
Well, Flash didn't have the equivalent of 12 cows or running off the equilvalent of zerg 3 base.
On January 24 2010 02:34 Sepiraph wrote: Not sure what is dumber, the fact that they didn't re-game or that they didn't have UPS as backup. If the blackout happened earlier right after Flash took out JD's 1 o'clock, would you agree that the game would be awarded to Flash instead?
well those are completely different situations. Jaedong wasn`t exactly doomed after that, as he proved it.
I agree with the decision made by KESPA, but at the same time I feel like i might have missed out on something awesome. I mean just consider the game before. Jaedong had 4 gas pretty much secured, and Flash could've taken out one of the island at best. And that's what the Korean commentators were saying. That the dropship needs to go to 9 or 12 o clock to destroy one of the gas. BUT Flash decided to just drop in Jaedong's base. A decision not easily makeable by any other terran, but due to Flash's amazingly quick at the same time optimal decision making, he was able to come back from that. Yes there was a little help from Jaedong on losing the guardians, but nonetheless it was a fantastic play by flash. Sure flash might not have won, sure jaedong probably would've won out at the end, but i would've LOVED to see if Flash could try something brilliant. A Flash move.... But i guess i can't complain. Jaedong deserved the win more than Flash deserved the rematch...
I don't understand why people are focusing on the decision to give jaedong the win in game 3. They were in a no-win situation and had to choose an option. The true mistake by kespa was making them play the rest of the games immediately after. They didn't just hand jaedong game 3, they handed him the series. Flash looked broken and demoralized in game 4; I haven't seen him look so clueless since stork thrashed him 3-0 in a bronze medal match a couple years ago. If they ruled in favor of a regame, I have no doubt in my mind that jaedong would have been affected just as much, as his advantage (not to mention the HUGE momentum/adrenaline boost of that incredible 7:00 defense) gets completely negated and he has to play again on the terran-favored map.
They should have postponed the rest of the series for some arbitrary amount of time to let the players' emotions cool down.
I am so disapointed after watching the vods. Not, because I think any decision is wrong or right, just because it seemed, that noone was enyoing the finals after game 3 anymore. Even JD didnt look too happy at the end. I dont want to join the complaints about Kespas decision but I cant sit here without saying/writing, that I am totally disappointed after a MSL final with Flash and JD! Hope they meet again soon !!
On January 24 2010 02:44 city42 wrote: I don't understand why people are focusing on the decision to give jaedong the win in game 3. They were in a no-win situation and had to choose an option. The true mistake by kespa was making them play the rest of the games immediately after. They didn't just hand jaedong game 3, they handed him the series. Flash looked broken and demoralized in game 4; I haven't seen him look so clueless since stork thrashed him 3-0 in a bronze medal match a couple years ago. If they ruled in favor of a regame, I have no doubt in my mind that jaedong would have been affected just as much, as his advantage (not to mention the HUGE momentum/adrenaline boost of that incredible 7:00 defense) gets completely negated and he has to play again on the terran-favored map.
They should have postponed the rest of the series for some arbitrary amount of time to let the players' emotions cool down.
yeah, that probably would've been a better option, but the mind games are part of the game itself: who handles the pressure better, wins. Thats the unique thing about a Bo5.
honestly, many players before got disqualified or got auto lose for things far worst and much more ambiguous than that, people should just acknowledge the fact that Jaedong had this, weather it's Flash or not, he's not playing Baxter, and he's not Boxer with 3 dropship and immortal mm. It was a straight game, Flash was about to get run over by Jaedong, and he had no way to win this unless Jaedong sacrifices all his unit while losing his 2 expands, come on...
Regame would have been a hold up, and from what we have seen, Jaedong was better today.
I think it's a sound argument that JD was technically ahead, but if Flash proved anything DURING the controversial game it's that he is able to deal with dark swarm and ultras. In case no one remembers, Flash was pretty much all but dead in game 2 using a seemingly flimsy SK terran style build against guardians / DOZENS of sunken colonies...and look what happened.
In game three Jae dong had made no ground against Flash even with full hive tech...the only reason people assume Jaedong was ahead was because of Flash's economy. Game one was incredible by Jae dong but game 3 and even game 4 were obviously affected by the controversial awarding of points; can't imagine either player was happy with that.
On January 24 2010 02:53 paulinepain wrote: , weather it's Flash or not, he's not playing Baxter, and he's not Boxer with 3 dropship and immortal mm. It was a straight game, Flash was about to get run over by Jaedong, and he had no way to win this unless Jaedong sacrifices all his unit while losing his 2 expands, come on...
I guess you didn't watch the series? How can you determine the "better" player by such a lousy second half to a Bo5? The first 2 games were the only worth watching in that series, and the 3rd half-game was probably ones of the best half-games of TvZ ever, on both players' part. It was slightly tilted to JD's economy at 18 minutes, which isn't saying anything in pro gaming , so while I thought the rest of the games / MBC/kespa ruling was shit, what did you find so obviously indicating that JD was better?
Flashs dad should have kept his cool and not stall the 4th game for like what 70mins?! I think thats the reason Flash was mentally weakend in game 4. Seeing your dad rage and tell you to leave a grand final isnt an easy thing to deal with.
Still the more I think about it the more I feel that Jeadong was the better player and deserves this title.
I really want to hear an interview with Jaedong and Flash now.....From that we could probably find out the true situation. I'm surprised Kespa didn't talk to both players before making this decision.
I felt like Flash had a disadvantage against Calm earlier in a game and came back with nice Turtling. This sucks. I also think it was demoralizing
Maybe if they decide one player had an advantage when the power goes out, they can play a mini 2 game series on that map. The one with the disadvantage must win both games to get a win in the actual best of 5, if he loses one, the player with the advantage gets the win in the best of 5.
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote: Plexa You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
... Rainbow vs July
Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent
Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
Maybe Kespa are actually learning from their mistakes ? Because it certainly seems fair to give someone a win if he has an overwhelming advantage . If they replayed that July vs Bisu game it would've been a pretty stupid decision . 1 DT against 3 base Julyzerg who is rallying hidras to your main . How exactly was Bisu suppose to win ?
While Jaedong vs Flash game wasn't that obvious . From the knowledge the Kespa referees had over the unit count resourse and base count they made a decision to give Jaedong the win . I don't know how that is a bad decision assuming they both had similar armies and Jaedong was on 4 bases with 5 gas and had started his 5th base while Flash was effectively minnig form 1 mineral only base . Flash couldn't brake the 7 o clock and he was retreating . Again how was Flash suppose to win with only 1 mining base against 5gas 4 base Jaedong when they had a similar army ?
If i can actually find a vod for Rainbow vs July i might try reasoning if that was a good decision or not .
I think the most important factor is what the official rules are for this kind of situation. Is reviewing the video and awarding a winner the official course of action? In addition is there some official criteria they base the decision off after review?
If they followed their rules/criteria then it was the right thing to do, fair or unfair. You agree to the rules when you decide to play in their leagues.
man, all the foreigners whining and going crazy is to die for, haha
In my opinion it was the right call, though, especially since Flas was about to lose. It'd be even more unfair towards JD having to rematch, than it was against Flash to be given loss.
Then again, this post will just be yet another post in a line of other posts which will never be read or taken seriously, I just mostly wanna laugh a little of all sensational whining and state a bit why
On January 24 2010 02:45 Altar wrote: What could have been the best series of all time turned into the worst series of all time, amazing.
The series was still much better than, say, GOM season 1. I thought games 2 and 3 were absolutely amazing, and I thought that the moment Flash d-matrixed his dropships was one of the most dramatic I had ever seen.
Being a huge Flash fan and the crazy crap that happened earlier in the series I still gotta give it to Jaedong. He played amazingly well and i'm not about to start bitching with what happened its disrespectful to both players to start complaining and whining about it they both had a chance to win and Jaedong came out on top. I just hope Flash continues to do well and doesn't let this shake him up any in my opinion he's still the best sc player out there right now despite what anyone else says.
When i saw the title of this i thought it was gona be a walk over for some one, so i watched them on youtube. Anything but, i thought it was very exciting and then came the power cut and eureka Grats to JD although i can't get that slightly nonfullfilling thought out of the back of my head.
On January 24 2010 02:34 Sepiraph wrote: Not sure what is dumber, the fact that they didn't re-game or that they didn't have UPS as backup. If the blackout happened earlier right after Flash took out JD's 1 o'clock, would you agree that the game would be awarded to Flash instead?
Well, Flash didn't have the equivalent of 12 cows or running off the equilvalent of zerg 3 base.
if the attack after that on the min only would have worked than yes, i'd have given it to Flash, but because it did not, ofc not. He had that base up long enough to get out a lot of ultras with good upgrades, losing that base wasnt a final blow or anything, he just needed to take a new gas, what he did, and defended it well.
Now Jaedong's MSL win, which he probably would have gotten anyway, is not accompanied by cheering fans and people throwing around the "b-word". This is what he gets instead. The blackout hurt Jaedong more than it hurt Flash.
On January 24 2010 03:29 Zozma wrote: Now Jaedong's MSL win, which he probably would have gotten anyway, is not accompanied by cheering fans and people throwing around the "b-word". This is what he gets instead. The blackout hurt Jaedong more than it hurt Flash.
Something hurts more than getting POTENTIALLY robbed of a title?
The damage has been done irreparable the moment of the power failure. As of consequence it obviously affected Flash's play in the next game. His eyebrow was twitching like crazy when he heard the decision. I will never forget that sight.
On January 24 2010 03:29 Zozma wrote: Now Jaedong's MSL win, which he probably would have gotten anyway, is not accompanied by cheering fans and people throwing around the "b-word". This is what he gets instead. The blackout hurt Jaedong more than it hurt Flash.
The thing some people are leaving out is the simple fact that Jaedong had a sizable lead, so I don't believe Flash was "robbed". Yeah, it's shitty that it had to go down like that(For God's sake, get a backup power supply!), but the refs had to do something. I agree with Ret's statement, they absolutely made the right decision. It's tough to swallow, as we could see from the play in the last set, but something had to be done. Noone likes making those decisions, not even the evil KeSPA.
I think the decision was correct, but it's not one that anybody should ever have had to make. From sticking them in a separate room, to not having heard of UPS this was a fiasco.
I completely agree with everyone there but chill, Jaedong is in an absolutely commanding position against all odds on that map, and a re-game would have been almost as bad as just giving the game to flash at that point...
Yesterday, I was playing a game of chess were I was behind significantly. My opponent was up a queen and a bishop against me. However, in the end, he made some mistakes and I corned his king and check mated him.
I do support KeSpa's decision to give Jaedong the win still, but I really do feel Flash's side as well.
I think it's a sound argument that JD was technically ahead, but if Flash proved anything DURING the controversial game it's that he is able to deal with dark swarm and ultras. In case no one remembers, Flash was pretty much all but dead in game 2 using a seemingly flimsy SK terran style build against guardians / DOZENS of sunken colonies...and look what happened.
First, JD had no swarm Second, JD threw away his mutalisks by turning them into gaurdians and subsequently trading them for 2 missile turrets and some m&m....
It was slightly tilted to JD's economy at 18 minutes, which isn't saying anything in pro gaming
I think it's been concluded that it was more than slightly tilted. Also, it says MORE in pro gaming.
The arguments about precedence is somewhat weak. There is no such thing as a "good time" to do something that will always result in someone being screwed.
(I know this is kinda overexagerating but...) It's not like it was a "good time" to abolish segregation in schools. It simply needed to be done. It was fair.
Looking at game 3, I really could not think of anything flash could do to come back.
I think a re-match you have been the better choice, but let's stfu untill Kespa says something. I doubt we are the only ones screaming from the bottom of our lungs that if there is a shot, you should allow it. And this is not 1% out of 99%, Flash wasn't overwhelmingly back. We've seen bigger comebacks than this, but the bottom line is "your opinion doesn't matter", things won't change, let's see how ef-ing Kespa motivates this BS and that's it.
On the livestream someone translated the fault not to a power failure but to a fan (not the blowing kind, fan boy) - entering Flash's "booth". Was this just trolling?
I was watching the Chinese stream and the Chinese commentators did not think Jaedong actually had a clear advantage at the point of blackout, and they actually thought they were going to regame. I totally agree. I also agree with plexa that, without a replay, you cannot possible know what is really going on - what supply they are at, their min/gas, etc. I remember watching a rep of nada vs some zerg and basically nada had 2 bases and the zerg had taken the entire map and had more supply than terran. Then nada made 4 dropships and simultaneously dropped to 4 of the zerg's expos and took them out and suddenly the zerg had no economy and eventually nada rolled him over. The truth is, watching a vod does not give you an accurate description of what is really going on.
Look, how many times have we watched a game and people were LRing, and saying "damn bisu is going to gg any sec", and then boom luxury lost all his mutas and lings and Bisu won? Replace bisu and luxury with countless other names. The fact is the kind of comeback of this scale happens TOO frequently for us to just give JD a free win IMO. Imagine there were just enough reinforcement from flash that sniped JD's 7, and then simultaneously dropped to 1, what would happen? What if flash was massing tanks already and that was never shown (like fantasy vs JD where fantasy's tanks were shown quite late), well he probably didn't have tanks then, but my point is, if he did, we would have no way of know; there are way too many unknowns.
There should of been a Re-game. All this BS about him being ahead just gives me a headache. He was NOT clearly head and was using every damn unit to save that 7 Base. People are saying that he had 4 bases with, but one wasn't running and the other was under siege(and well wasnt running). I just got get this. Just like in pro games in the US if they were sure about something they have REPLAY, so just like in progames if something like this happens there should be a regame instantly. The results were utter bs.
Flash was robbed. There was not enough evidence to give the win to ANYONE. ~_~ /Rage
Zee wtf vod were you watching, how was he not ahead. 1 base terran with minerals vs 4 base Zerg. Flash's large army all gone and JD taking his 5th base. Flash at the end had 2 vessels with no enery, and what... 6 rines/6medics? he was unable to expo, he was unable to take JD's expo, and he was unable to control any portion of the map anymore. I mean really you need to watch the VOD again if you somehow missed the massive advantage for Zerg.
On January 24 2010 03:54 kb.RepulsE wrote: Yesterday, I was playing a game of chess were I was behind significantly. My opponent was up a queen and a bishop against me. However, in the end, he made some mistakes and I corned his king and check mated him.
I do support KeSpa's decision to give Jaedong the win still, but I really do feel Flash's side as well.
If a grandmaster was up a queen and a bishop against another grandmaster.....
On January 24 2010 03:29 Zozma wrote: Now Jaedong's MSL win, which he probably would have gotten anyway, is not accompanied by cheering fans and people throwing around the "b-word". This is what he gets instead. The blackout hurt Jaedong more than it hurt Flash.
This is the unfortunate truth. Flash lost game 3 and his 8 rax in game 4 was predicted and it would've lost also. There is no way Flash wins the series. Now Flash gets loads of sympathy and Jaedong is being hated.
On January 24 2010 04:07 IamAnton wrote: Zee wtf vod were you watching, how was he not ahead. 1 base terran with minerals vs 4 base Zerg. Flash's large army all gone and JD taking his 5th base. Flash at the end had 2 vessels with no enery, and what... 6 rines/6medics? he was unable to expo, he was unable to take JD's expo, and he was unable to control any portion of the map anymore. I mean really you need to watch the VOD again if you somehow missed the massive advantage for Zerg.
He has bases that werent mining. Advantage? I think not. I was watching Live. I dont need to Re-live such a travesty. ~_~
It was unfair yes, but I like many others believe it was the fairest decision possible. Everyone mentions how Jaedong had the advantage and yes I believe he did, but even more importantly he prepared a special build just for that map. He was in cross positions and went 3 hatch before pool, I don't think he would get away with this again. It was very risky but it payed off because he made the correct gamble. He went very fast evolution chamber to get 5-2 ultras, which he would undoubtedly have to change for the re-game. Sure he probably has backup builds but I think to take such an advantage away would just be brutal.
I think Flash is amazing though for the way he handled this. He looked heart broken at the very beginning when they mentioned awarding the game to Jaedong. I felt so bad for him, the fact that he prepares for something like this every day, almost every hour and the power cuts off to deny him at least a fighting chance. Jaedong looked unsatisfied as well which, who could blame him? Nobody blames Jaedong for the power outage but his win at game 3 will always be controversial, so the victory, I'm sure is an unsatisfactory one. But the fact that Flash was smiling at the award ceremony after and congratulating Jaedong just shows how not only good of a player he is but how mature and good of a person he is. I give credit to both players, at least we got to see 3 very exciting matches before the power just couldn't handle the intensity of their battle anymore.
Golden Mouse, WCG and now MSL title against the "unbeatable" TvZ player
He won game 1 on Match Point and made it look easy Barely barely lost game 2 ... he was so close from repelling the dropship attack but it was very well timed by flash He played an incredible game 3 ... seriously it could have been one of the best games ever had it not ended up that way, i loved it... incredible play by both players on a terran favored map and still everybody agrees jaedong was way ahead ! I personally think he had game 3 won 100% and i have yet to hear anybody explain how Flash could have won that game. And game 4 was just a formality (very good scouting though) but he kept his cool and did the job
Well Done Jaedong ... you deserve it ! I am not a Jaedong fan but i have to say... he is the dominent force of this era
I've said this before but: I hope in the near future we can forget all this drama crap and focus on the great games the series provided us.
We should be talking about Flash's BEAUTIFUL counter in game 2. He had one chance to win that game, one timing, and he found it. He didn't overreact to the guardians and only makes a few wraiths so he can make the drop ships and vessels he needs. Then he elevators his troops in and gives a marine micro clinic to take the game.
We should also be talking about Jaedong's phenomenal BoX play. Defying the odds he takes a convincing win in Game1 with brute determination and shows incredible resilience to hold out in game3 til his upgrade and tech advantage kick in to take the game. Then in Game4 he reads Flash's playbook perfectly and predicts the 8rax deflecting it with ease.
I really hope I wasn't the only one that went on a nerd rage after I heard that KeSPA decided on Jaedong to win...
It was, in my opinion, the best game of the series without the computers heating up and disconnecting, but seriously... FlaSh, sure, wasn't in a great position but wasn't completely starved and Jaedong was just then starting to get his expansions up, so he most likely wasn't at 2k minerals and 1k gas or something.
Yeah, it would suck for Jaedong if there were to be a rematch, but he had already taken a game off of FlaSh in the first game and he shouldn't have been nervous about losing or playing an extra game.
All in all, I blame MSL. Might not be the most mature solution but wow... And my hatred for KeSPA just keeps piling up.
And I think it was rather clear that FlaSh was really upset and so were the fans, as FlaSh went for 2rax which is something that can be easily defended and just about half the fans got up and left without waiting for the ceremony. "Thanks MSL, for the failure of a great Finals"
On January 24 2010 04:20 StarKiller wrote: Jaedong is the new Bonjwa !
Golden Mouse, WCG and now MSL title against the "unbeatable" TvZ player
He won game 1 on Match Point and made it look easy Barely barely lost game 2 ... he was so close from repelling the dropship attack but it was very well timed by flash He played an incredible game 3 ... seriously it could have been one of the best games ever had it not ended up that way, i loved it... incredible play by both players on a terran favored map and still everybody agrees jaedong was way ahead ! I personally think he had game 3 won 100% and i have yet to hear anybody explain how Flash could have won that game. And game 4 was just a formality (very good scouting though) but he kept his cool and did the job
Well Done Jaedong ... you deserve it ! I am not a Jaedong fan but i have to say... he is the dominent force of this era
You do realize that Jaedong was already considered a 'bonjwa' when he won his third OSL. Winning WCG doesn't affect Jaedong's KeSPA ranking at all, and it sure isn't exactly the hardest league for progamers to win in. Players like White-ra and Kolll are good, sure, but progamers are better. And you basically sided with everything Jaedong did good. Not even mentioned any positive thing FlaSh did, so keep your ignorant and biased self to yourself.
I'm with Nazgul and Ret. I thought it was gg for a minute when the power went out. It's the most fair way to do it. Jaedong really won that series legitimately.
Bases that werent mining when the game blacked out? i think not. Yes he lost drones before, but at the end where Flash pushed JD's expo... He lost all his units trying to take that expo and has failed. note that durong that time we all know there were some drones rebuilt at the top. Also note since flash's push failed and he has no units that even if somehow he didn't have drones there, how was flash going todo anything to stop him from getting drones there? Flash had 0 map control at that point, and the only units he did have where being rallied to the bottom expo which couldn't be taken now. So with depleted gases for herrible vessel production and only 1 expo with minerals, which was almost depleted aswell. how was Flash exactly going to get up an expo or somehow stop jaedong from mining? JD had ultras and defilers to easily stomp any expo attempt and Flash didnt have the resources to even start trying to come back.
I mean by all means if you have a responce on how Flash at all could of won that then plz post. Just saying he was in the lead though dosn't prove anything. Frankly i didnt see anything for Flash todo at that point.
It was clear who was the winner from the first game. On the hype thread there was some quotes from progamers who said that flash didn't had time to prepare due to team wars and stuff, thus making the final look one sided (bc jaedong had a long time to prepare).
On the other hand at the OSL encounter JD was the one with the disadvantage of time, but still flash went "cheesy bastard" mode and won.
so, in conclusion by the way they play, JD is a baller, better player.
You do realize that Jaedong was already considered a 'bonjwa' when he won his third OSL. Winning WCG doesn't affect Jaedong's KeSPA ranking at all, and it sure isn't exactly the hardest league for progamers to win in. Players like White-ra and Kolll are good, sure, but progamers are better. And you basically sided with everything Jaedong did good. Not even mentioned any positive thing FlaSh did, so keep your ignorant and biased self to yourself.
Why are you such a hater ? I did mention that Flash played good in games 2 and 3 ... And i don't believe Jaedong was ever seriously considered Bonjwa nor that people will consider him that in the future given the number of extremely good players there is in the scene right now. But after a new season on top i think he should be considered that
I mentionned WCG because he hadn't won it yet and depite what you might think Korean qualifiers for WCG isn't exactly a walk in the park... neither is WCG world finals when there are 3 top koreans and all the best foreigners (but ret) in it.
I guess their decision was okay, better then some past decisions, but I think the MSL people are dumb for having a blackout in the first place. No wonder almost everyone thinks the OSL is more important.
this reminded me of that time Boxer couldn't drop the siege tank on the island cuz Kespa used a wrong version of the map so unfortunate Flash had to sit through that, you could see his hopes just collapsed after that 3rd set
On January 24 2010 04:35 IamAnton wrote: Bases that werent mining when the game blacked out? i think not. Yes he lost drones before, but at the end where Flash pushed JD's expo... He lost all his units trying to take that expo and has failed. note that durong that time we all know there were some drones rebuilt at the top. Also note since flash's push failed and he has no units that even if somehow he didn't have drones there, how was flash going todo anything to stop him from getting drones there? Flash had 0 map control at that point, and the only units he did have where being rallied to the bottom expo which couldn't be taken now. So with depleted gases for herrible vessel production and only 1 expo with minerals, which was almost depleted aswell. how was Flash exactly going to get up an expo or somehow stop jaedong from mining? JD had ultras and defilers to easily stomp any expo attempt and Flash didnt have the resources to even start trying to come back.
Everyone is speculating what could of been. Regardless there should have been a Re-game. The MSL is ruined for the fans, players, and staff and over all in general. The results of game 3 made everyone look bad. I didn't even have to watch game 4 to know that JD would win. Flashes heart wasn't in the game after that debacle and many peoples felt the same way. It will take time(I don't know how much or if it ever will) to accept Jaedong as the winner, but he will never be the clear winner.
Personally, I think this is a blow to the starcraft community. The desire to watch starcraft for myself has been severely weakened.
to say Flash was at a disadvantage without the replay is like saying you've boned carmen electra but never had your dick inside her.. Kespa doesn't know how much money flash had in the bank. Jaedong was playing incredibly defensively... allocating a large chunk of his gas to scourge.. when you have few defilers on the field you're not going to be able to pressure an expansion. Kespa is communist.
On January 24 2010 04:21 Klive5ive wrote: I've said this before but: I hope in the near future we can forget all this drama crap and focus on the great games the series provided us.
We should be talking about Flash's BEAUTIFUL counter in game 2. He had one chance to win that game, one timing, and he found it. He didn't overreact to the guardians and only makes a few wraiths so he can make the drop ships and vessels he needs. Then he elevators his troops in and gives a marine micro clinic to take the game.
We should also be talking about Jaedong's phenomenal BoX play. Defying the odds he takes a convincing win in Game1 with brute determination and shows incredible resilience to hold out in game3 til his upgrade and tech advantage kick in to take the game. Then in Game4 he reads Flash's playbook perfectly and predicts the 8rax deflecting it with ease.
I don't think either of them played a top performance. Game 1: JD had an easy first game. Flash seemed really sloppy with his m&m and perhaps could've made more turrets. Not something you want to do vs JD's muta's.
Game 2: Flash basically lost the game with a his ineffective counter strategy. I'm sure everyone thought JD was taking this game, he could've done a lot damage in Flash's main with his muta's.. Flash's main was really vulnerable at that point though, JD knew it as he had scouted flash's full base. He then decides to pull out his mutas to morph some guardians at one of the worst places he could've morphed them. Seemed really dumb and by doing that he totally threw the game. Even though it's always easy to comment the ones that are playing, these two players are two motherfucking titans right?!
Game 3: A close and exciting game. JD went for a risky strategy and was able to hold his grounds which paid off in the end. I found JD's defense earlier in the game really sloppy, and later in the game he had all these ultra's that were outside of his swarm getting owned etc. Nevertheless he held it down yada yada. Not going to waste more typing on this since there are too many posts on this game already for obvious reasons
Game 4: Flash went for an early barracks far out of his main. I'm not sure what he was thinking here but it seemed sort of a big gamble, going for a bunker rush on a 4 player map. JD figured to play a safe game, opening with an overpool so there wasn't anything Flash could do. I think Flash then wanted to fake an exp and go for some sort of timing m&m push, but JD ran a zergling around and scouted Flash's full base. At that moment I knew JD would win that game. Mutas arrived leading to another easy victory for JD.
After all the bullcrap from Game 3 I don't think there is any way that either of them would play a great game anymore though, so I don't really care too much about the fourth one. However judging from all games together, I'd have to say that to me JD seemed superior to Flash and I don't think Flash had too much chance to take the series regardless of the Game 3 fiasco, on that particular day anyway.
I don't know how Jaedong "deserved" that win. He deserves a win if he bested Flash in a best of 5 under fair conditions. That never happened. This isn't Jaedong's fault and I feel for him, but you can't say Flash would have lost a best of 5 anyways just because Jaedong was looking stronger in the fair games that were played (1 - part of 3).
We simply don't know what would have happened in a fair test of each player's skills. Based on what I saw tonight I believe Jaedong probably would have won in a fair fight, but that is my opinion and speculation and not what occurred. It's unfair to simply write Flash off and say, "well Jaedong was looking stronger anyways he would have won no matter what." That's just fanboyism.
I just say: Game 2. JaeDong had more bases, more gas, and Flash still won. Similiar situation in game 3 (before blackout), JD might have had more resources but the PAST GAME proves just because you are ahead in resources/bases does not always mean you win.
And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base.
Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time.
On January 24 2010 04:20 StarKiller wrote: Jaedong is the new Bonjwa !
Golden Mouse, WCG and now MSL title against the "unbeatable" TvZ player
He won game 1 on Match Point and made it look easy Barely barely lost game 2 ... he was so close from repelling the dropship attack but it was very well timed by flash He played an incredible game 3 ... seriously it could have been one of the best games ever had it not ended up that way, i loved it... incredible play by both players on a terran favored map and still everybody agrees jaedong was way ahead ! I personally think he had game 3 won 100% and i have yet to hear anybody explain how Flash could have won that game. And game 4 was just a formality (very good scouting though) but he kept his cool and did the job
Well Done Jaedong ... you deserve it ! I am not a Jaedong fan but i have to say... he is the dominent force of this era
You do realize that Jaedong was already considered a 'bonjwa' when he won his third OSL. Winning WCG doesn't affect Jaedong's KeSPA ranking at all, and it sure isn't exactly the hardest league for progamers to win in. Players like White-ra and Kolll are good, sure, but progamers are better. And you basically sided with everything Jaedong did good. Not even mentioned any positive thing FlaSh did, so keep your ignorant and biased self to yourself.
Jaedong was never considered a bonjwa what are you talking about....
Don't get me wrong. After game 1, I was excited. After game 2, I was on the edge of my seat. Midway through game 3, I was off my seat. And then the power outage happened. Ugh. It's painful to see something like that happen in the biggest final EVER. I'm not going to commentate on if the decision to give it to Jaedong was just or not, but what I did want to say is how fulfilling this final was for me.
I'm not saying that because the games were terrible because the first 3 games were amazing (minus the loss of power), but after Jaedong took the 4th game (in a pretty ordinary fashion) there seemed to be no emotion in the crowd (I understand that though, it's not like I'm going to applaud after seeing a movie at the theater because who am I applauding? The projectionist?). The fact that they separated the crowd from the players was one of worst (if not the worst) decisions made in starcraft history. And the fact that game 3 ended the way it did, I swear, Murphy's Law had a big impact on this final. To separate the crowd from the players and keep the crowd in a room smaller than my elementary school's gymnasium for the biggest final of all time, that's just a kick in everyone's face. When Jaedong won at the end, I felt more energy at the end of a regular season PL game between Samsung and ACE than I did last night.
On January 24 2010 04:59 catabowl wrote: I just say: Game 2. JaeDong had more bases, more gas, and Flash still won. Similiar situation in game 3 (before blackout), JD might have had more resources but the PAST GAME proves just because you are ahead in resources/bases does not always mean you win.
And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base.
Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time.
No. When JD had advantage in game 2 Flash had a lot of resources, income, units etc. Flash had options. When you have options you can turn a game around. You can get back into it with fantastic play. If a player still had options I wouldn't support a freewin, even if they were at a disadvantage. A lot of the posters here just don't understand the magnitude of JDs advantage. Flash didn't have options. He had one control group of marines against 5 gas ultralisks. His vessels had no energy and he had nothing else that can hurt ultras. No tanks. No mines. No firebats. Flash couldn't attack because he couldn't spare any units from his min only because he didn't have enough units to even hold it. Any attack would be trading one base for one and when you only have one mining base you can't do that. Flash could only defend and JD had 1 almost finished which would be 6 gas. The game was over. Flash hadn't gged yet but it was over. Flash had 0 options. All Flash could do was camp and you can't camp a base site with 3 open entrances with pure marine and medic against 6 gas ultralisks.
On January 24 2010 04:51 ZeeTemplar wrote: Everyone is speculating what could of been. Regardless there should have been a Re-game. The MSL is ruined for the fans, players, and staff and over all in general. The results of game 3 made everyone look bad. I didn't even have to watch game 4 to know that JD would win. Flashes heart wasn't in the game after that debacle and many peoples felt the same way. It will take time(I don't know how much or if it ever will) to accept Jaedong as the winner, but he will never be the clear winner.
Personally, I think this is a blow to the starcraft community. The desire to watch starcraft for myself has been severely weakened.
After following this thread all day this is probably the post which conveys my feelings the best. I'm so disenchanted, .
catabowl in game 2 Flash had groups and groups of units and still 2 bases running so yes resources isnt everything you're right. But... flash had no units and he hadent taken the expo yet(CC was in base). Let alone could he even defend it if he did. he had no irradiates which would have made stopping that expo from mining very easy. Game 2 and Game 3 were completely different. JD lost his tech buildings and his drones on that Flash drop which is why he lost. Game 3 JD had his tech buildings, alot more resources, more units and the ability to control the entire map.
On January 24 2010 04:59 catabowl wrote: I just say: Game 2. JaeDong had more bases, more gas, and Flash still won. Similiar situation in game 3 (before blackout), JD might have had more resources but the PAST GAME proves just because you are ahead in resources/bases does not always mean you win.
And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base.
Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time.
This has been over analyzed already but: Game 3 was totally different from Game 2. In game 2 there had been no big collisions of any army or whatsoever & JD went a different strategy, wasted his whole advantage by wasting his muta/guardians to pretty much nothing.
In game 3 JD had had 5-2 ultra/ling with swarm vs m&m with very few vessels with no energy left. Flash his main was mined out empty, Flash his natural was depleting (could see mineral blocks were disappearing as he was mining there) & he had a CC flying towards his mineral only. I don't know what you'd want Flash to do. Secure the new mineral only exp with no map control and have JD's fully graded ultra/ling/swarm/scourge rape him? (seemed he was going to do that as he pulled his army back up). Keep on wasting his valuable minerals into JD's base where he has 2 defilers ready, ultra/ling and some scourge? Run out to try to kill some of JD's other bases leaving his own base open for destruction and making it even easier for JD to counter a small m&m force?
It's true, the game wasn't over, but it was. In this case no decision would be a right one.. But ffs, for all people thinking Flash still had good odds on making a come back, what the hell did you want him to do from that point?
I still can't believe so many people think not replaying the game was cool. It's totally standard in SC to replay the game in that kind of situation.
If JD was really the better player he would win the series regardless, if Flash was the better player he would win the series regardless. Instead they decided to fuck over one player going into the deciding game 4 instead of letting the rematch occur that JD could recover from even if he lost. Calling a game in the final is so dumb. I really doubt as many people would be in support of calling the game if the series was tied 2-2 on the same map because then it's 100% apparent that it's definitely not ok, but because it wasn't a deciding game people let it slide when really it was just as crucial.
Talking about fairness to JD is also not clear cut. Giving him the win destroyed the glory of his NATE MSL win and put a big shadow of doubt over who was the better player. How is that fair? If they had rematched and Flash won the series it wouldn't have been 1/3rd of the big deal that it obviously was giving away the match.
You don't give away matches in the most anticipated close series ever and you definitely don't do it when all you have is a VOD that doesn't include min/gas count, supply, what was being built, etc. For all we know Flash could have had a bunch of rines at his nat and 2 dropships building. If the camera hovered over that kind of scene then you definitely couldn't call the game, but because we have no idea what was really going on people just circle a bunch of units on their screen and feel like that logically proves the game was set and that giving the match away was A ok.
You can't call the game when you have a vague idea about what's going on and are just making assumptions on what either player might have had. Especially when in past situations there were regames in these spots and especially when it's the MSL finals. All Kespa had to judge was this stupid VOD just like us and yet they make the choice in 1 min after the game? Overall I feel giving the game away was definitely less fair than a replay and you can tell that was the case based off everyone's reaction to the incident, both in Korea at MBC and on TL. They could have let the series play out or they could butcher it and they chose to butcher it.
EDIT:
On January 24 2010 05:06 Last Romantic wrote: It has ALWAYS been regame. Otherwise YellOw would have an OSL title.
Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
I really don't see how JD had game 3, all Flash had to do was expand 1 more time and they would have equal bases. And from what it looked like on mini map, Flash had a larger army. All JD could do is delay with defilers while Flash could safely expand. So just because JD had 1 more base running at the time doesn't mean he would have won. How would Kespa rule the game if blackout happened after Flash took out top right expo and was marching towards Jaedongs min only? I think most of us thought Flash was ahead at that point.
On January 24 2010 05:31 Regizer wrote: I really don't see how JD had game 3, all Flash had to do was expand 1 more time and they would have equal bases. And from what it looked like on mini map, Flash had a larger army. All JD could do is delay with defilers while Flash could safely expand. So just because JD had 1 more base running at the time doesn't mean he would have won. How would Kespa rule the game if blackout happened after Flash took out top right expo and was marching towards Jaedongs min only? I think most of us thought Flash was ahead at that point.
Flash couldn't hold the expansion he had, let alone expand again. Flash didn't have a larger army.
JD was delaying with defilers against the final energy of Flash's burning out main and nat. Those huge mnm armies were the result of Flash's 2 base allin. That 2 base allin failed and Flash's main and nat mined out. There were no more massive mnm armies coming. Flash was exhausted.
Kespa would have probably given a regame at the point in your example because JD still had a lot of options to turn the game back around. Flash had 0 options to turn it around. He couldn't just expand one more time because he'd lost map control in the battle at 7.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
People are still debating that Flash had a chance? Especially with Kwark and Nazgul making the strong argument that much stronger, by now you're embarrassing yourself thinking otherwise. You can't just say "he's Flash so he has a chance against 5 gas fully tech'd zerg with no tanks or vessels".
Discussion about the rule (although seeing now that by judges decision they mean they can decide to rm or name a victor I think it's fine), and most importantly venting about, well, Flash's comp's lack of venting, should be the real topic. It's like saying 2pac is still alive at this point.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
I'm just arguing that you don't really know that and are just assuming it based off a VOD that shows very little of what's going on. I'm not giving him the dropships, I'm just pointing out that hypothetically he could have them 80% queued up and you would never know, yet you and many others act like you have access to the replay file of this game and that it's a legitimate ruling.
Say JD needed a minute to create his full control group of ultras and that Flash had 11 marines at his rally point with some medics and two dropships popping out of his starports in less than a few seconds as the power cut. Then you definitely would have to argue that a drop in the main would be totally distracting for JD and hard to deal with as at the moment of the power outage it appeared that his macro from his new bases was just barely starting to kick in. Flash couldn't have broken 7 but maybe along with his newly made MnM group he could elevator his remaining troops into the main of JD and distract him long enough to lift his main CC to the 12 o clock base and get some kind of map control going. Maybe he could have destroyed tech buildings, who knows.
And you will argue that it's unlikely, or that even if there was a drop that JD would ignore it and A move into Flash's min only, but the point is we don't really know and to act like it was done deal without having a replay is accepting ignorance in my opinion.
Because no one really knows what was going on, making a call on it so controversial when compared to past rulings and in a final is just plain wrong. You can ignore the "what if" if it makes you feel better, but short of Kespa asking the players what they had and how they felt about their chances in the game after watching themselves in the VOD (and both players being honest) they can't really make that ruling just looking at the VOD for a minute and 30 seconds.
Additionally, earlier in this thread someone asked how this situation would play out if something similar occured in the TSL, and an answer was given that many interpreted to show Kespa's choice was legit, but really a situation like this would never come up in TSL because there would always be a replay to watch to clarify what was going on. I seriously doubt the mods on this site would call a TSL based off of a VOD and you can see that reflected in almost every mod's opinion about the rematch... which on the whole seems to be that it wasn't legit.
Surely you can see that many feel its unfair to give a win without complete information that a replay file would grant
I think it's a sound argument that JD was technically ahead, but if Flash proved anything DURING the controversial game it's that he is able to deal with dark swarm and ultras. In case no one remembers, Flash was pretty much all but dead in game 2 using a seemingly flimsy SK terran style build against guardians / DOZENS of sunken colonies...and look what happened.
First, JD had no swarm Second, JD threw away his mutalisks by turning them into gaurdians and subsequently trading them for 2 missile turrets and some m&m....
It was slightly tilted to JD's economy at 18 minutes, which isn't saying anything in pro gaming
I think it's been concluded that it was more than slightly tilted. Also, it says MORE in pro gaming.
The arguments about precedence is somewhat weak. There is no such thing as a "good time" to do something that will always result in someone being screwed.
(I know this is kinda overexagerating but...) It's not like it was a "good time" to abolish segregation in schools. It simply needed to be done. It was fair.
Looking at game 3, I really could not think of anything flash could do to come back.
So you can "Monday morning quarter back Jaedong "not having swarm and "throwing units away," as a reason for him loosing the second game, but what would you say if someone said "Flash gave up economic strat for 2 rax and Jaedong happened to pool first before scouting," or, "Kespa / MBC gave the second half of the game to Jaedong because of his economy".
I don't understand how you can excuse his losses on swarm / throwing units but then acknowledge wins based on MBC / Kespa rulings or even coincidental build orders.
JD did have swarm and did have ultras and Flash was still pressuring him for minutes before the power outage. That I agree that Jae dong was ahead is irrelevant; to give him the game was ridiculous.
I have no idea what you're talking about regarding "precedence" and the example of segregation you used. Also, in reading your post, it looks like you're talking about game two. In game three (the contraversial one, JD had swarm/ultra.
Flash couldn't hold the expansion he had, let alone expand again. Flash didn't have a larger army.
JD was delaying with defilers against the final energy of Flash's burning out main and nat. Those huge mnm armies were the result of Flash's 2 base allin. That 2 base allin failed and Flash's main and nat mined out. There were no more massive mnm armies coming. Flash was exhausted.
Kespa would have probably given a regame at the point in your example because JD still had a lot of options to turn the game back around. Flash had 0 options to turn it around. He couldn't just expand one more time because he'd lost map control in the battle at 7.
From what I saw at the end, JD cleared up all marines at 7 but medics survived and Flash brought reinforcements to save those medics. At that point JD had maybe 3 ultras(some with low health) 2 defilers and few lings and scourage. Flash still had a decent clump of medic/marines which he retreated with.
Hm I guess now that I think about it JD would be able to macro up a lot faster but maybe by then Flash would have a decent force too and had his new expo on the way(for all we know Flash could have been building a CC in his base already). I guess it would come down to whether Flash would be able to hold against JDs counter attack. Also there's no knowing whether JD would be able to defend his new expo at top right. I do agree that JD had an advantage but it wasn't clear how the rest of the game would turn out.
On January 24 2010 03:13 purpose wrote: I dont know if anyone has posted this qoute yet but in case not, here is what Ret has to say about it. And tbh I agree with him.
All in all there was not 100% correct decision to make, but the one they took was the least unfair.
Ret's opinion " I'd just like to say I think the descision Kespa made to award JD the win was the right one. He was playing on a T favored map...in a very very favorable position after having overcome all the imbalances that make this map so hard to play ZvT on. If you put jaedong back at the start of the game it gives flash an advantadge again...So regame is a lot worse than awarding Jaedong a win for a game he would win 99.9% of the time. He was about to get his 5th gas...Flash was outta minerals in about 2 minutes....with no vessels or tanks to fight Ultras. m&m in small numbers would have never broken jaedongs base at 7 o clock. So all in all the only right descision in my opinion. "
LOL
Thats the worst reasoning I've ever heard, it makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever. The idea you award a win in the MSL finals because of map balance is absurd.
No the reasoning was that Jaedong was the clear winner in set 3. Flash had 0 chance of coming back from that. To restart the game would bo 100x more unfair to Jaedong because he was ahead and his build was revealed. Yes it sucks that the game had to end early, but let's be honest Jaedong was going to win it soon enough. We shouldn't be mad at KESPA, we should be mad at the fucking piece of shit MBC for shitting up the finals with the crappy studio.
The fact a map is balanced in favour of one race (in your opinion) is no basis for making a decision on the result of a match. That is the chosen map for the series whether you like it or not. Are you suggesting that if power outage had happend and Flash had been winning the game then it should have been replayed because of the map. Stop clutching at straws and except that the wrong decision was made.
Both Flash and Jaedongs builds have been revealed. You cannot argue that Jaedongs lead was decisive. Flash and other players have come back from far far worse positions many times in the past. People forget that 3 was severly damaged. I think he may have been heading there rather than retreating. This isn't fair on Jaedong either, by not replaying the game its ruined his victory.
YES we absolutly should be mad at Kespa
1) For having inadequate rules and protocol 2) For letting this drag out for over an hour ruining the next couple of games. Bad decisions happen in many sports but coaches, players and parents do not argue for hours after the event whilst it is still ongoing. 3) For making a the wrong decision. As it has already been said you do not just ajudicate wins in the MSL finals.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
On January 24 2010 05:50 NotJack wrote: People are still debating that Flash had a chance? Especially with Kwark and Nazgul making the strong argument that much stronger, by now you're embarrassing yourself thinking otherwise. You can't just say "he's Flash so he has a chance against 5 gas fully tech'd zerg with no tanks or vessels".
Discussion about the rule (although seeing now that by judges decision they mean they can decide to rm or name a victor I think it's fine), and most importantly venting about, well, Flash's comp's lack of venting, should be the real topic. It's like saying 2pac is still alive at this point.
One game to prove JD can lose with overwhelming base count. Jaedong vs Fantasy on Outsider where the advantage for JD was MUCH larger than game 3. You're right tanks would be a key, but I'm pretty sure flash would still have plenty of gas to pump tanks and SVs from 2 ports and 2 facts while making MnM.
If you say NO DOUBT JD wins the ruling is still BS because of the known outcome after that. Either you say JD wins and flash is so struck by the loss he can't concentrate. Or flash responds with a cheese for two obvious reasons 1.) He remembers JD's last game and thinks he can cheese a passive economic build like that or 2.) He feels like a game was stolen from him, so he wants to steal one back.
That was the OBVIOUS result which is why JD pooled earlier than the previous game.
As far as the rule is concerned there should be a SET advantage by the winner 5x the army size and +3 bases (there is no real place you can put it because of terran/protoss worker count), but it is something to think about it. IMO it was not a clear enough game to call it. MnM is cheap, so even if flash went to 1 base he could've easily expanded, or went all in we have no clue now because somehow they can't keep the freaking power on in an offline game LMFAO. Could easily power by several sources. Oh well too late.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
On January 24 2010 05:53 CommanderFluffy wrote: Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to milk the rivalry franchise between two of the greatest BW players of all time.
What about this for a solution if this kind of situation ever re-occurs...
Make a re-game... but let jaedong (or the player in his position) choose what map to play on out of the map pool... That way he could still possibly retain his advantage and it doesn't completely screw flash out of a chance to win
The map imbalance should be taken more into consideration than you think because it affects jaedongs decision to possibly have agreed to a regame. Like if it was me personally, if i felt the game was still close and flash may have had a chance but inorder to regame it would have to be on this shitty map that i felt i had to use a risky strat to have any chance to win on, i'd say no for sure!
Either way, correct decision by refs imo, shitty situation that never should have happened however... but nothing left to do about it
On January 23 2010 23:13 KwarK wrote: Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over". Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
That's not the point, starcraft at that level is all decision making and control, while JD was definitely ahead, Flash has fought his way out of more dire situations before. To remove the chance to lose or win in the GRAND finals, and have that choice given to you based on SUPPLY count (which was one of Kespas primary reasons) is completely absurd. They made a travesty of the finals, made it seem like they did nothing wrong and further ruined by deciding the victor. This must have completely thrown flash off his game, this is by far the worst finals I have ever witnessed in starcraft history.
I know I'm just QQing now but Goddamn I was looking forward to this. I /facepalmed so hard.
underwhelming. this word perfectly describes how i feel after watching this series. game 3 was so epic, had it ended the normal way, it might have been rated one of the best tvz´s in history. actually i think given how fucking good flash was and how unbelievably jaedong played to destroy it, this game by jaedong was the best zvt ever played. i was so thrilled during that final battle for 7 o´clock.... and then the lights turn off, leaving nothing but darkness, void and bitterness.
well, gratz to jaedong anyway, he showed a fantastic series and judging by what they showed prior to the power outage, he absolutely deserves the title.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
The difference seems to lie solely in who you are a fan of it seems.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz.
Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Edit: And I see ZeeTemplar getting a ban for previous comment.
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players.
Yes, you're in the vast majority of amazing pro gamers that play on a professional team in korea.
On January 24 2010 06:26 Black Gun wrote: underwhelming. this word perfectly describes how i feel after watching this series. game 3 was so epic, had it ended the normal way, it might have been rated one of the best tvz´s in history. actually i think given how fucking good flash was and how unbelievably jaedong played to destroy it, this game by jaedong was the best zvt ever played. i was so thrilled during that final battle for 7 o´clock.... and then the lights turn off, leaving nothing but darkness, void and bitterness.
well, gratz to jaedong anyway, he showed a fantastic series and judging by what they showed prior to the power outage, he absolutely deserves the title.
On January 24 2010 05:53 CommanderFluffy wrote: Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to milk the rivalry franchise between two of the greatest BW players of all time.
Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to give kwark something to do.
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Kwark dude are you joking -_-? You have no idea what was going on from both players perspectives and yet you're going to try and make a UMS to prove that Flash was going to lose without knowing min/gas count, what was queued up, etc? What people had at their rally? And you seem to ignore what I said in my last post?
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players.
Yes, you're in the vast majority of amazing pro gamers that play on a professional team in korea.
How old are you Zee? 1.) Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win... life goes on. 2.) Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win based on completely unfair circumstances... Life goes on. 3.) Sometimes refs make bad decisions, though based on the options they had I think the _refs_ made the only fair decision. (MBC on the other hand reaaaalllly should've put some effort into getting some decent UPS.) In these cases, too, life goes on.
No need to BM everybody who disagrees with you with ad hominem attacks. Thou shalt take a breather and come back and edit thy posts upon thy ire's fading!
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Don't bother it's going to be unbelievably innaccurate.
On January 23 2010 23:13 KwarK wrote: Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over". Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
That's not the point, starcraft at that level is all decision making and control, while JD was definitely ahead, Flash has fought his way out of more dire situations before. To remove the chance to lose or win in the GRAND finals, and have that choice given to you based on SUPPLY count (which was one of Kespas primary reasons) is completely absurd. They made a travesty of the finals, made it seem like they did nothing wrong and further ruined by deciding the victor. This must have completely thrown flash off his game, this is by far the worst finals I have ever witnessed in starcraft history.
I know I'm just QQing now but Goddamn I was looking forward to this. I /facepalmed so hard.
No. No progamer has ever come back from a situation that bad against another progamer. If you think they have you just don't understand how bad it was.
It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
On January 24 2010 07:03 luckybeni2 wrote: It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
Bisu's probes had a better chance of fighting off July's hydralisks than of Flash's pure mnm fighting off Jaedong's defiler-ultra. The worst thing about it, of course, is the mindrape Flash experienced which probably shot his game to hell.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz.
But in foreign ZvT knowledge he's more or less unrivaled. Just sayin' that your argument is arbitrary.
On January 24 2010 07:03 luckybeni2 wrote: It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
I agree. I think overall JD did outplay flash (quality-wise), but he still only won 1 legit match (first match), lost the next, and that's that. Likely would have won the 3rd, but Flash wasn't out yet, was still producing (and since no replay, thats likely as far as this can go). I don't see how people can count match 4 as legitimate, as it was apparent even before the match started that Flash wasn't composed (it was even talked about on vent/irc after Flash re-entered the room).
I think even though the resources were in JD's favor, Flash had the momentum advantage in the game. He'd been pressuring the 7oclock base and taking out masses of Ultras and lings with 3-4 control groups of marins that he was constantly reproducing. He was at 2 gas which is enough to sustain his science vessel fleet in such a gas light build.
He had the momentum and before the outage i was sure Flash was gonna take down the 7oclock base. He had a chance to expo while he was controlling the flow of the game and noone can say that he couldnt have gotten a very quick 3rd with the many extra scvs he had.
This is coming from someone who was rooting for JD, though after this Kespa BS, rooted for Flash in game 4, just on principle.
The game was not over!! It could have went on for another 20 minutes! sigh
Sucks that the best game of the series (by far) was dc'ed in the middle and the ruined by this terrible decision.
I would put this analogy in American football terms...
It's like Jaedong was winning 20-10 in the beginning of the 4th quarter, Flash had the ball and was having a good drive. The game ends abrubtly and the officials give the game to JD. Sure JD statistically had a large advantage, but Flash could have come back and won, how many times have we seen this in sports and SC alike?
btw all these ppl saying Jae-dong had the game in the bag.... Look at the vod, flash pulls back to secure his 3rd and has a nice group of mnm on the highground with vessles. Jaedong just lost almost every unit he had defending 7 oclock, and has mined out his main and nat. He also has a low drone count (due to flash destroying hit 3 oclock expo and killing all those drones just 3 minutes before the crash!) Anyone who thinks Flash is hopeless in this situation (with 8 rax pumping) is delusional.It's really to close to call. Game 2 didn't look good for Flash either when you look at the point when 5 gaurdians are morphing next to flash's nat and jaedong is starting to pump ultra-ling, but 2 wraiths and 2 dropships = flash wins. Can you honestly say that a 2 ship drop on Jae-dongs main in game 3 couldn't have had the same result? IMO either a replay of the game or goto BO7. But to do what they did was a show of utter non-professionalism and stupidity. Did you notice when the lady came out and made the announcement she said "APPEARED" jaedong was ahead? Instead of "Jae-dong was clearly ahead", Because without the replays THEY ADMITTEDLY DON'T EVEN KNOW THEMSELVES! I was very sad to see Flash just give up in game 4 though.... and all the drama.... poor kid Flash father should have made good on his threat and pulled him out of the event right there! Flash's team and coaches should have all walked out and shunned MBC, and two of them should play a rematch on the same maps and broadcast it themselves, to settle all arguments! And someone really needs to teach Koreans how to BOOOO! because when that anouncement was made I think both player's supporters should have BOOOOed the rest of the broadcast! To close I have on last thing to say FUCK MBC, FUCK the MSL, and congrats to both Jaedong and Flash for all they're hard work!
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Kwark dude are you joking -_-? You have no idea what was going on from both players perspectives and yet you're going to try and make a UMS to prove that Flash was going to lose without knowing min/gas count, what was queued up, etc? What people had at their rally? And you seem to ignore what I said in my last post?
Guess there's no arguing this situation.
I figured I'd just be generous to Flash (while assuming he didn't have like 5k mins stacked up) and give him two extra full rounds of production. And I'd be harsh to JD with regard to his drone count and his money stacked up and units (only units were the ones we saw, dots on the minimap were all lings no defilers, ultras and no units coming). Then we'd see what it looked like. We can agree on the basic facts like what was at 7 and what units Flash had. If, after being really generous to Flash and really harsh to JD, Flash could possibly win then you've got your answer, should have been a replay. However, if it shows that after rigging it in Flash's favour so JD somehow had no money, only the units we saw + lings for unknown units and no units making despite having his income JD is still unassailably ahead then that's your answer too.
It's easy to guess Flash's min/gas count if you've ever seen him TvZ before lol. Low. Very low. Same with JD.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz.
But I bet he can play a better TvZ then you can. So as a word of advice; arguing can be good, but continuing to argue after you are obviously wrong is pointless.
On January 24 2010 07:18 pioneer8 wrote: I think even though the resources were in JD's favor, Flash had the momentum advantage in the game. He'd been pressuring the 7oclock base and taking out masses of Ultras and lings with 3-4 control groups of marins that he was constantly reproducing. He was at 2 gas which is enough to sustain his science vessel fleet in such a gas light build.
He had the momentum and before the outage i was sure Flash was gonna take down the 7oclock base. He had a chance to expo while he was controlling the flow of the game and noone can say that he couldnt have gotten a very quick 3rd with the many extra scvs he had.
This is coming from someone who was rooting for JD, though after this Kespa BS, rooted for Flash in game 4, just on principle.
The game was not over!! It could have went on for another 20 minutes! sigh
Sucks that the best game of the series (by far) was dc'ed in the middle and the ruined by this terrible decision.
I would put this analogy in American football terms...
It's like Jaedong was winning 20-10 in the beginning of the 4th quarter, Flash had the ball and was having a good drive. The game ends abrubtly and the officials give the game to JD. Sure JD statistically had a large advantage, but Flash could have come back and won, how many times have we seen this in sports and SC alike?
Did we watch the same game? It was more akin to a team having a 35-7 lead with a first down and 2:00 left.
I can't be 100% sure, but I think Jaedong could have had lots of minerals stockpiled. His ultralisk count was pretty low the whole time and he had some idle larvae and stuff, so I thought during the game that he might have one of those "2000 minerals 100 gas" situations going on.
It's just a guess, of course.
But that's missing the point; Even if Flash's half-a-control-group of marines miraculously managed to kill Jaedong's 7:00, that wouldn't even bring the game back to parity. Jaedong would still have a pretty good advantage.
The reason good players claim to be certain about the game being over is because they recognise when a player is absolutely invested in something. Flash was 100% invested in taking that base down. By the time the game crashed there was no chance in hell he would succeed.
In these sorts of games there's always a distinct turning point where you know the air was let out of you, and everything's about to go down-hill from there. Because that moment occured within half a minute before the crash, alot of people had a hard time seeing it.
I understand people saying kespa didn't follow previous precedent. That's mostly what's being argued in this thread. But saying JD might've not had an advantage is just being unrealistic.
This thread feels like any other sport discussion about referees being "inconsistent". With added hilarity as people are actually complaining about an essentially just decision being inconsistent with previous unjust decisions.
"Yeah but... but... the ref awarded two penalties when both those players dived... and then when another player was roughed for real he didn't award one. But in this game, the ref actually gets it right, but that don't matter because IT WAS INCONSISTENT YOU SEE".
And in these people's minds there's no room for a ref to have improved. To have learned from past mistakes and evolved. There's no room for a judge to overthrow a judicial precedent, even though it's discriminatory and unconstitutional and so forth...
While I agree this is an unfortunate and not the least desirable way to decide the outcome of a finals series, I won't be one to non-stop bitch about technicalities pertaining to this series in the future everytime something's mentioned. The way I see it this is actually a step in the right direction.
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Good luck, i look very much forward to playing / seeing that.
I don't get the power outage. They can't have the computers hooked up to one of those power strips with 30 minutes of backup power?
Of course that's in the past, and hopefully this will never happen again because I feel like it was an avoidable situation. The situation sucks but I think it was right to give the win to Jaedong, though it still is unfair to Flash.
Um... did that final have not a single lurker spike fired?
Despite how many good players say this or what, we should recognize that if Jaedong made a mistake or a strategic blunder, a base could have been razed and the advantage could have swung. We have all seen it happen before.
I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash.
How could you NOT replay the game in the biggest OFFLINE tournament in the country? The rules pertaining to this are just not mannered or good for either player.
On January 24 2010 07:53 pioneer8 wrote: Despite how many good players say this or what, we should recognize that if Jaedong made a mistake or a strategic blunder, a base could have been razed and the advantage could have swung. We have all seen it happen before.
I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash.
Like I said- even if Flash somehow killed 7:00, Jaedong would still have an overwhelming economic advantage. It would just be slightly less overwhelming. Not a big deal.
On January 24 2010 07:53 pioneer8 wrote: I expect alot of Korean pros to come out against this as utter BS and a stolen trophy from Flash.
I don't know about that. It's not very often dissent is seen against Kespa from progamers. They have to obey the rules set before them, its their careers on the line. I do expecta lot of korean netizens to come out against this though.
I wouldn't even say the trophy was stolen from flash. Had things gone on into game 4 (and possibly 5), its entirely possible JD would have won overall. He did play extremely well. But this wasn't a good way to conclude things, and neither of them can be happy now.
I agree with the write up more or less. This is just an unfortunate situation and there is no fair decision. Either JD gets screwed by having a rematch or Flash gets screwed with giving JD the win. I do think JD was ahead enough to warrant him the win, but still, no it's not fair.
To battle 5 gas zerg, you need 2 of 3 things, a massive mnm army, science vessel cloud, and/or mass tanks. Flash had none of that, every mnm he produced went to attacking, jd kept the science vessel cloud low and there were no tanks. The game crashed just when I think jaedong was about to overwhelm flash.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment.
On January 24 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote: They both played extremely well.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment.
This is sensible to say, but what would happen if let's say Flash went with some sort of cheese say proxy 8rax or something and won the game, there would be just as much outrage by JD fans over the results. Yes the end result is not fair, but of the alternative options, I do believe that they made the best possible decision. Although it takes away from us fans.
The real travesty is that neither player truly won. It was painful to see jaedong's face as he had won the fourth set. I really wanted flash to win, but I certainly wouldn't wish this upon jaedong. he definately deserved to win without all of this.
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Good luck, i look very much forward to playing / seeing that.
On January 24 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote: They both played extremely well.
If the tournament would have RM'd game 3 rather than give it to a player, i think the MSL would be marred by FAR LESS controversy and everyone would be happier. Of course there would still be controversy over the outage but it would be far less.
I mean RLY lol.... to award the highest honor in gaming to a player who didnt even win 3 games is a huge mistake. God, i wish they would just redo it... sigh such a dissapointment.
Odd-Eye is ridiculously imbalanced TvZ. There was about ~70% Terran win rate before this series. To take away Jaedong's 99.9% won game after he fought hard for a comeback and overcame map imbalance, and then telling the players to play again is effectively taking a win away from Jaedong and giving one to Flash.
Declaring a rematch would only have been disrespectful to the finals that both players practiced so hard for. This isn't a "fuck KeSPA" situation; this is a "fuck MBC" situation.
I cant believe how much MBC fucked this up, its not even funny. How can they be such amateurs? Who the fuck was responsible for the IT? Getting an UPS is the FIRST thing you get when its IMPORTANT, that your hardware keeps running. They either dont give two fucking shits about esport or (and i dont know whats worse) are the dumbest incapable infants who run a tv company.
anyone remember the game flash vs savior on blue storm in the GSI i think.. ? if anybody would have told me that flash was gonna win that game, the moment savior raped his natural and had a shit load of muta/guardians outside his base i would have branded them morons! well flash did in fact win that game. just as he could have won this one as well. ok lets be fair flash had a bit of an disadvantage, truth be told. but if the game had not been stopped and flash had won you wouldn't hear me shout "comeback of the year". quite on the contrary, i see players getting out off bigger jam's on daily basis. so c'mon guys this is flash, srsly!
only two games were played this final and that was the first two. If flash lost game three through his own demise and not that of a power outage. Game 4 would have played much different and i think we woulda saw one epic fucking series. But as far as im concerned i didnt even see a bo3 let alone a bo5.
Jaedong bit, kicked, and scratched and finally looked like he might have an advantage in that game. But I want to clarify something that people don't seem to get:
Advantage =/= "99% win probability"!!!
After all, Flash had the advantage when he took down the 1/2oclock and almost killed the 3/4 oclock. If the power went out there, do we give Flash the win? That's how these games go: advantages can swap back and forth. Even though I think that Jaedong had an advantage, this does not mean that he would have won!
They should have either done a regame or rescheduled the series and start from scratch. Considering that Flash almost walked out, KT almost walked out, and Flash's dad had to be removed from the premises, and judging from that joke of a 4th game, it was obvious that no one was in it anymore. Everyone lost. Jaedong didn't look happy at all after the 3rd game. Flash looked like he had already checked out mentally.
On January 24 2010 08:37 KillerMan2k wrote: so c'mon guys this is flash, srsly!
well, unfortunately, his opponent is JD...who has at least an equal skill level with Flash.
Personally, I feel that giving the win to JD was probably the right choice. However, it wasn't fair. The whole thing couldn't have been fair no matter how u do it. That said, they should just make sure they have adequate power supplies and shit whenever they hold these things. It's just ridiculous that there would be a freaking power outage in an e-sports final and the MSL at that -.-
On January 24 2010 09:09 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Jaedong bit, kicked, and scratched and finally looked like he might have an advantage in that game. But I want to clarify something that people don't seem to get:
Advantage =/= "99% win probability"!!!
After all, Flash had the advantage when he took down the 1/2oclock and almost killed the 3/4 oclock. If the power went out there, do we give Flash the win? That's how these games go: advantages can swap back and forth. Even though I think that Jaedong had an advantage, this does not mean that he would have won!
They should have either done a regame or rescheduled the series and start from scratch. Considering that Flash almost walked out, KT almost walked out, and Flash's dad had to be removed from the premises, and judging from that joke of a 4th game, it was obvious that no one was in it anymore. Everyone lost. Jaedong didn't look happy at all after the 3rd game. Flash looked like he had already checked out mentally.
We all lose.
You seem not to be able to diversify between different kinds of advantages. Others can though. No matter what you think of the decision I think it is pretty obvious you can't just randomly compare different kinds of advantages and point to say look he overcame it.
It's too bad they didn't have a better solution, though.
Were it up to me, having watched the 3rd game twice now, I would have given the win to JD, but then made it a Bo7 series. Each player could have drawn one map from the map pool to play it twice (or 3x in the case of match point). Clearly both players were affected by the decision, as was displayed in the final game by both build orders.
4/7 games to win would have reduced the trauma of the power outage..Flash would have had a real chance to regain his stride and Jae dong would have been able to win convincingly and beyond contest. As it is now, everyone is left feeling bitter.
I just want to say a few things. First of all, many people complain about the map being 'imba' in the favor of Terran. However, this has NOTHING to do with whether there should have been a re-game or not.
Second, I was rooting for Flash, but I don't think the decision was a bad one. I personally prefer a re-game, but even as a Flash-fan, I think he didn't have a realistic chance to win game 3. However, I think all the bullshitting afterward is what made Flash lose his focus and with it game 4. I'm not saying JD wouldn't have won game 4 otherwise, but Flash appeared really tired, and I think in different circumstances he would've played better.
i will admit my sig gives me a huge bias, but I am gonna say that kespa chose the lesser evil out of the two. Im a jaedong fan, but not a rabid one, and I am also a huge fan of flash (except when he bunker rushed jaedong out of the OSL and i called him a dickcuntfagdickshitballsuckingFUCKFACE). it kinda sucks to be a jaedong fan cuz it seems u automatically get the 'rabid' prefix. in any case, in my most objective view, imho the advantage was large enough to merit an autowin... no large mnm army, lesser upgrades, no tanks (his single factory was used for barricading and it didnt even have a machine shop attached), no vessels when fully upgraded ultra/lings/defilers are pumping from 4 bases and no map control/inability to take expansions past your nat 18 minutes into the game is a big enough disadvantage i think.
I take comfort with the fact that I dont think flash took it that hard... You can see from his facial expressions, or the "start start start start start 1a2a3a4a" he was typing in chat before game 4 started, or the smile and handshake he gave jaedong after the series that he wasnt as infuriated as his coaching staff or his father. or maybe he is just the fucking man and knows how to not let emotions take control of him and acknowledge his disadvantage in game 3. if ANYTHING, i think this situation sucks for jaedong, as he is probably feeling really bad for wat happened to flash as they are like best buds.. and also cuz he knows his msl victory and all the new records that he established with it are gonna be tainted forever. sucks that this ever had to happen, mbc can suck my balls for trying their stupid separate gaming arena shit without even taking care of such a basic thing as power supply
On January 24 2010 09:09 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Jaedong bit, kicked, and scratched and finally looked like he might have an advantage in that game. But I want to clarify something that people don't seem to get:
Advantage =/= "99% win probability"!!!
After all, Flash had the advantage when he took down the 1/2oclock and almost killed the 3/4 oclock. If the power went out there, do we give Flash the win? That's how these games go: advantages can swap back and forth. Even though I think that Jaedong had an advantage, this does not mean that he would have won!
They should have either done a regame or rescheduled the series and start from scratch. Considering that Flash almost walked out, KT almost walked out, and Flash's dad had to be removed from the premises, and judging from that joke of a 4th game, it was obvious that no one was in it anymore. Everyone lost. Jaedong didn't look happy at all after the 3rd game. Flash looked like he had already checked out mentally.
We all lose.
i would love to see any evidence that supports ur claim other than tl posts that say "Flash should have just walked out!"
I cant believe such thing can happen in Korea ,It was probably because of the those carton boxes and labels that they have putted on top of the monitors , so they couldn't cool properly ,and overheated eventually.
I'm going to have to agree with nazgul on this. It would have a bigger screw up to regame because of the current situation. Both options are bad, but the lesser of two evils was chosen... How a computer overheats playing SC is beyond me........ Maybe some more reliable hardware would be a good move.
Giving Jaedong the game was wrong, it should have been re game because to me it looked like flash hard a pretty big army at the end and his science vessels were killing defiler comming out of the nydus at 7 o clock, I think he could have taken that base and maybe won. It is hard to say so bad decision in my opinion.
imo kespa made the right decision. map was T favored and jaedong's 3 hatch pool double evo move, which was jd's counter to flash's 1 rax expo, was already revealed. regame would give flash a huge advantage and jd a big disadvantage now that both know the strats.
no matter how you turn it, jaedong had that game 99%. flash had no tanks, no vessels, two soon to be dry bases and only 1 viable base. jaedong can rebuild very quickly and ultraswarm flash's single source of income while jd was on 3/4 bases. yes of course there's the possibility that flash could play really fucking good and jd could make epic mistakes, but that probability is not justifiable of a regame at all.
but the best scenario of course is that MBC FIXED THIS GOD DAMN PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH... how unprofessional was this?
IDK how someone can say that the best option is a REGAME..WTF
marines alone sucks against a zerg with defilers and ultras + zerlings + 5 hatch... and Flash got like 3 vessels at most.
Jd won that game but its sad cus People will remember this final for that stupid thing and not like the final when JD showed that he is the best SC player ever.
On January 24 2010 10:00 Kare wrote: Giving Jaedong the game was wrong, it should have been re game because to me it looked like flash hard a pretty big army at the end and his science vessels were killing defiler comming out of the nydus at 7 o clock, I think he could have taken that base and maybe won. It is hard to say so bad decision in my opinion.
On January 24 2010 10:00 Kare wrote: Giving Jaedong the game was wrong, it should have been re game because to me it looked like flash hard a pretty big army at the end and his science vessels were killing defiler comming out of the nydus at 7 o clock, I think he could have taken that base and maybe won. It is hard to say so bad decision in my opinion.
Watch the minimap in the last 3 seconds. Flash's army turns around from 7 and heads back home. Flash doesn't think you're right. Flash thinks JD holds bottom left with swarm.
On January 24 2010 10:00 Kare wrote: Giving Jaedong the game was wrong, it should have been re game because to me it looked like flash hard a pretty big army at the end and his science vessels were killing defiler comming out of the nydus at 7 o clock, I think he could have taken that base and maybe won. It is hard to say so bad decision in my opinion.
Watch the minimap in the last 3 seconds. Flash's army turns around from 7 and heads back home. Flash doesn't think you're right. Flash thinks JD holds bottom left with swarm.
Technically, since flash was still producing and had new units coming to the rally point, its possible he was only withrdawing the leftovers from 7 to regroup in a new ball. Like Chill, I also think JD had an advantage, but unclear how much of one. Anyway, I think I'm done with these finals for now, all these discussions aren't really getting anybody anywhere. Hopefully there will be an official post-game interview from Flash with his opinion/clarification one way or the other.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory.
It's not Flash's fault, It's not Jaedong's fault, and hell it was not KeSPA's fault for giving seemingly controversial judgment. This blackout itself from MBC games own studio is unacceptable. Yeah, sure Jaedong was in advantage and Flash was losing on third match. KeSPA had to give decision and it is given, will that satisfy at least one side? Flash is of course, the victims on this situation. It probably wouldn't even satisfied 'winner of third set' Jaedong. He didn't want that, he probably wanted to achieve victory by forcing Flash to call GG. Whatever KeSPA's decision was, it probably didn't satisfy either side. We have to remember, that we shouldn't really complain about KeSPA's decision, but why in the holy mother of Jesus MBC game had to screw up the power in anyway. I am so very dissapointed with MBC. I am Flash fan, so maybe I am more raged on this, but seriously, I don't think Jaedong fill achieved winning the MSL either. This very MSL will be a scar to even victory profiles of Jaedong. Not everyone will feel he deserve the seat, and so as Jaedong himself.
My computer, monitor, router and modem are plugged into a back up power strip. The MSL didn't have these computers running through emergency power strips??? Are these people for real? I agree with the fact that JD was in the lead but flash was still in the game. There have been much bigger comebacks than that. Obviously if flash didn't gg yet he had a plan in mind. I don't know what i would have decided about the game but a situation like this could have been SO EASILY AVOIDED!
Flash knew that JD had won that game. It was his dad and his team stalling for 70 minutes which really mind fucked him. Letting him sit in a room for over an hour watching his supporters have such a lack of confidence in him doesn't help him in any way.
On January 24 2010 07:46 Jonoman92 wrote: Um... did that final have not a single lurker spike fired?
Yes.
Just like Kwanro vs Flash semis I guess lurkers dont work vs flash ^^
jaedongs entire build on odd eye revolved around the lack of lurkers usually when zerg decides to go the normal path of getting to hive tech ultra/ling and defilers, lurkers are thrown in during mid game because lings alone cannot hold off the T/P push but in this game he does a risky no lurker (i dont even think he threw down a den) build that techs up to ultras as fast as possible on 3 gas. Ultras are not supportable on 3gas but with lack of lurkers, he has left over gas to pump ultras for a while before he gets to 4gas+. It also helped that he threw down dual evos early game so that ultras would pop out with good upgrades. a very risky yet well conceived build order optimized to the map (odd eye - any opponent would have guessed jaedong to go for the 7 o'clock expansion for the 4 gas but he instead went for the relatively poor 1o'clock expansion, buying enough time) and the player (any other zerg user without 400+ apm would not be able to pull off such a micro-intensive build that relies solely on non-adrenaline lings to hold off moderate sized pushes from the opponent before ultras are out)
edit: oops didnt see that you had said the whole series... lol
a decision had to be made, and there was no way to not hurt one of the players. choosing to deny flashs minor chance to still win this and hand out the game to jaedong technically speaking was the correct decision in terms of the situation ingame before the outage.
but no matter what would have been the technically correct decision, it was guaranteed to hurt the player against whom it was called. therefore there was absolutely no way to not have the power outage and the deciding of the game by kespa refs massively affect the player on the losing end of the decision made. yes, probably flash knew the game itself was 99% lost and i dont think he was particularly bitter or disappointed by the decision itfself, but what was happening around him, the circumstances and all, this stuff really crushed his mental state. and it would have been the same for jaedong if the game had been replayed.
therefore my conclusion is that because of the inevitable psychological effects of the situation, the only solution would have been to cancel the finals and finish the series with a bo3 one week later, with jaedong choosing the first map from a pool of current and reasonable maps. this way both players would have had enough time to settle down and reestablish their composure. jaedong choosing the map for the replayed game 3 would give him back some of the advantage he had established but was robbed off from in this scenario.
ofc this was no option for mbc/kespa for business reasons.
OMG guys stop talking abowt how Flash was unfairly harmed...if they have had given a remach the things from advantage for JD were going to change to 50:50 for both of the players + the map is in Terran's favor so in conclusion if there was given a remach flash was going to end with advantage.I think that this dessision was right because in case of remach flash was going to have better chanse for winning and Jeadongs AMAZING game during the 3-rd mach was not going to be rewarder as it should be. :-) And chill should be for jeadong because he is Zerg player wtf are you doing Chill :D. GG GL HF JD is the best Flash too :D...
Flash was 3-3 at the ending point as i could see. He got disadvantage for sure, but JDs first two gases were almost depleted and he got 1 base up and running and that 7oclock base was almost saturated. Advantage to JD but not 99% lol. It's Flash.
On January 24 2010 12:56 Breach_hu wrote: Flash was 3-3 at the ending point as i could see. He got disadvantage for sure, but JDs first two gases were almost depleted and he got 1 base up and running and that 7oclock base was almost saturated. Advantage to JD but not 99% lol. It's Flash.
but it's okay since Jaedong had picked up the dual gas expansion at the 7 so he was replenishing his gas supply, also I'm not sure on this but I believe that the terran will run out of minerals faster for whatever reason (worker saturation), but I'm not sure on this. Oh and one more thing, if someone says the game isn't over because it's Flash, someone else can say the exact same thing and say game over because it's Jaedong, both of these players are definitely the best in the game right now, if only Bisu would make a comeback >.<
Personally, I thought that flash was ahead.. It looked like JD was loosing a lot of forces holding flash off. His bottom left drone count was low and his 5th was barely also barely running. Flash had his 3rd running.
To me, It seems there is alot of JD fanboys here but most of you prolly know more than me. I just don't think flash is well represented.
Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up.
Re-match, the only way to go. 5 running gas? Do you think JD stockpiled it? I know flash did, i know how much gas T's have in the bank after 18 minutes. 3-4 bases did JD have? Well, the 7 o'clock had only 3 drones mining minerals. He had 2 gases, but you know what goes great with gas? Minerals! Main almost out, expo almost out, and that expo near the main. So he had 2+1/2 bases. Flash had 1 mineral only (fresh) and almost mined out expo (not mined out, you can see it on the minimap).
Flash would have taken those odds! Retreating? He has M&M's, of course he is retreating, that's what medic and marine forces do! He had 3-3, not 2-2. JD had 2 sunkens, 2 ultras, 3 zerlings, 2 scourge. Flash would have been able to produce m&m. Not a lot, but he could produce, there is no doubt about this. And you've seen what Flash is able to do with those medic walls. This is pure BS. And we're listening to people saying - hey, kespa did the right thing. Fuck Kespa. They screwed up. Re-match for the spirit of the game, for the fans, for everyone. Neither of the players could have said anything. Now Flash can say something.
Was JD in the lead? Sure. Was he overwhelmingly in the lead? No. Re-match? Yes.
Not only do I hate MBC for not having equipment that works (come on, really??), but I really have to curse the gods for choosing that exact moment for the outage...
If it happens one minute earlier its almost certainly a regame, one minute later and its probably a hell of a lot easier to call it for JD.
I don't necessarily think it was a bad decision, but it absolutely leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I'm sure it does for many people. It was probably the more fair of the two options but I have always really disliked Kespa calling games in almost any situation. As others have pointed out, had there been no outage and Flash managed to take the game, it would not have been the biggest comeback in Starcraft history, and Flash was deprived of the chance to make that happen.
On January 24 2010 17:05 Plethora wrote: If it happens one minute earlier its almost certainly a regame, one minute later and its probably a hell of a lot easier to call it for JD.
oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case. Like others have said (as well as deus_073 just above), had game 2 crashed a few mins before the end, it would be heavily weighed in JDs favor (bases, tech, econ, map control).
Well as time goes by, only the gold medal will matter and the "taint" will wear away. Jaedong definitely was the better player that day and deserves the title.
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over.
Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not.
Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously.
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over.
Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not.
Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously.
I'm familiar with that game, and you can't bring that as a comparable example. You even said as much - "at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win". I'm not (nor ever did) disagree with that. The only 'bull' is saying that this match at the time of the outage was comparable to that game. Lets see, flash had just taken a fresh min-only expo, and was still mining off his nat. at the time of the outage, he was still producing (and since we have no replay we cant even see how much gas he has stored up or left in the nat). Consider that since his strat used pure SK Terran m&m (no tanks), he likely had a fair bit of gas saved, as he was only using it for vessels and medics (where as JDs gas has been used on mass mutas/ultras and defilers). I'm not saying flash had the game in the bag, nor that JD was losing (or would have lost had it gone on). All I'm saying (and have been) is that the match was not over.
I would have given flash the same odds of winning when the blackout occurred. As when his bunker rush completely failed in the 4th game
On January 24 2010 16:40 deus_073 wrote: Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up.
Am i the only one that thinks this is quite possibly the worst ZvT build ever. Its super easy to scout with scan. A greater spires take 2mins to morph +the qnest and hive time for terran to scan and see something is up. No lurks to use scanner energy on. A super easy hard counter that's already build right into any standard TvZ bio build (quick starport). T doesn't even get punished for not having vessels quite a fast because theirs, no lurks and no defiler.
To be fair to JDs version its the best ive seen. A straight up 2hat into 3gas fast gards in the worst build Ive ever seen.
Im not exaggerating the lest when i say as soon as I sore the greater spire, I put JDs chance of winning a 0%
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over.
Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not.
Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously.
I'm familiar with that game, and you can't bring that as a comparable example. You even said as much - "at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win". I'm not (nor ever did) disagree with that. The only 'bull' is saying that this match at the time of the outage was comparable to that game. Lets see, flash had just taken a fresh min-only expo, and was still mining off his nat. at the time of the outage, he was still producing (and since we have no replay we cant even see how much gas he has stored up or left in the nat). Consider that since his strat used pure SK Terran m&m (no tanks), he likely had a fair bit of gas saved, as he was only using it for vessels and medics (where as JDs gas has been used on mass mutas/ultras and defilers). I'm not saying flash had the game in the bag, nor that JD was losing (or would have lost had it gone on). All I'm saying (and have been) is that the match was not over.
I'm not attempting to argue about how over this game was. I'm merely attempting to point out that the argument you made - that because the game was close a minute before, it was too close to call when it ended - is ludicrous. Games can and do change that fast. Hence the state of the game a minute previously (which was, I freely concede, far more even) isn't at all relevant to how close the game was at the end. It needs to be assessed at how close it was at the end, not how close it was before several key exchanges played out.
In terms of how close the game actually was - I'm going to make no effort to assess that. I'm not a good SC player. I'm a decently informed observer, and no more. I will say that my perception while watching it was that if Flash failed to break the double gas he was going to be in bad shape, and it looked to me like said failure was imminent. But given that I have absolutely no credibility in terms of asserting how close (or not) it was, I'm not even going to try, beyond noting that the overwhelming weight of opinion in this and other threads is that Jaedong's lead was somewhere between "very significant" and "overwhelming".
The other argument I've seen is the fact that Flash had previously been up in that game, and that Jaedong had been ahead in game 2. The difference, as I see it, is that it was still clear how the game could still go to either player. In game 2, yes, Jaedong was on 4 bases vs 2 with hive tech... but it was pretty easy to say "if Flash harasses well with drops or air units he can get back in this economically". It was pretty easy to say "he builds wraiths out of the two starports he already has and shut down those guardians". Jaedong may have had an advantage, but there were clear ways that Flash could attack it.
Similarly, after Jaedong lost top right, it looked bad - he was on 3 bases vs 2 with a big Terran ball coming at him. But you could look at it and say "well, yeah, that's going to be a problem, but Jaedong has quite a few ultras so if he gets off a good flank he has a shot". There's a clear route to victory - or at least, to getting back in the game.
Problem with where game 3 ended, as I see it, is that that's really not very true of Flash. All the theories of how Flash comes back range from the ill-informed ("Flash had a secure third and was going to stomp all over Jaedong's double gas") to the highly speculative ("Well, if Flash builds two dropships and dumps his entire army into simultaneous drops on main and 3, while bluffing Jaedong into staying behind to defend the double gas, without Jaedong catching on that he can push and win, he might do enough damage to keep the game going") to the outright ludicrous (BCs!). Flash's situation is far more dire than it ever had been in game 2. Jaedong was never in as much trouble in game 3 as Flash was at the end. I'd have a lot more faith in the "Flash was still in it" camp if they could come up with a cohesive plan as to how he stays in it that doesn't involve a) tech we know he didn't have, b) money we know he didn't have, and/or c) Jaedong playing like a complete and total moron. I'm not saying no such plan exists - I just haven't seen it. And until I do, I confess myself sympathetic to the side of the debate that argues the decision to award Jaedong the win was justified.
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over.
Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not.
Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously.
I'm familiar with that game, and you can't bring that as a comparable example. You even said as much - "at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win". I'm not (nor ever did) disagree with that. The only 'bull' is saying that this match at the time of the outage was comparable to that game. Lets see, flash had just taken a fresh min-only expo, and was still mining off his nat. at the time of the outage, he was still producing (and since we have no replay we cant even see how much gas he has stored up or left in the nat). Consider that since his strat used pure SK Terran m&m (no tanks), he likely had a fair bit of gas saved, as he was only using it for vessels and medics (where as JDs gas has been used on mass mutas/ultras and defilers). I'm not saying flash had the game in the bag, nor that JD was losing (or would have lost had it gone on). All I'm saying (and have been) is that the match was not over.
I'm not attempting to argue about how over this game was. I'm merely attempting to point out that the argument you made - that because the game was close a minute before, it was too close to call when it ended - is ludicrous.
I found it amusing that you claimed you are trying to counter my argument (to which you first responded about the game not being over), yet you completely ignored the sentence that followed the one you quoted. Here you go:
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: ... its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case.
This was also my main problem with you using the Bisu/July match as an example.
On January 24 2010 17:49 Steve496 wrote: The other argument I've seen is the fact that Flash had previously been up in that game, and that Jaedong had been ahead in game 2. The difference, as I see it, is that it was still clear how the game could still go to either player. In game 2, yes, Jaedong was on 4 bases vs 2 with hive tech... but it was pretty easy to say "if Flash harasses well with drops or air units he can get back in this economically". It was pretty easy to say "he builds wraiths out of the two starports he already has and shut down those guardians". Jaedong may have had an advantage, but there were clear ways that Flash could attack it.
I don't much see the point in arguing about how over round 2 was, but from irc during that match, as well as on the actual MSL thread (which got posted on constantly during the sets), people were at least partially writing Flash off, saying how he was getting mined out, had no tanks, very low vessel count, only a couple of control groups of m&m and JD was all over the place. Again, one could say that it was 60/40, or 70/30, or 99.9% (yes that has come up a lot regarding match 3 from some of these 'expert' fans), but either way the game was favoring JD and some people all but gave up and were expecting an incoming gg. Flash proved otherwise with great drop play (which wouldnt have been possible without the d-matrix). I don't know about you, but I for one didn't see that as a 'good' hole in JD's defense, but it worked (was even close, hence the d-matrix).
Also, I never said that Flash could have a sure-fire way to come back into set 3, I dont know what he had planned at that moment (though I really hope to see an official interview about it, if he will be 'allowed' to speak about that incident publicly). I think that had the match ended properly, even with him losing outright from that moment on, it would still qualify as quite an epic match. Regardless, he was not down and out, he was still mining, still producing. No matter how favored you want to call the odds in JD's favor (again, i could even accept some people's 90/10 opinions), the match was not over.
In all previous kespa matches where technical difficulties have been the cause for the end, unless if the match is completely over as in no army/no money/etc, it is a rematch. Now I realize that demanding a rematch of JD on that map at that time would have been insanely imbalanced and unfair to him, that would not be the 'only' solution, which some people don't seem to want to recognize.
I'm not about to type this all out (I and others have done so enough in the past 24 hours), but a good one would have been rescheduling the event for a few days/week, even removing this map (now that JD used his risky opening and is stuck helpless) giving the players time to prep. Either start it back up at 1-1 (thus making it a bo3), or start at 0-0. Both players would have time to compose themselves, prep new strategies, etc. Ending the most hyped up MSL finals in history w/o 3 wins isn't right. In fact, game 4 wasn't even much of a game with the way flash was.
anywy, tl:dr, I'm just saying in my book, round 3 wasn't over, round 4 was heavily affected, and the victory is tainted, which is a shame, because win or lose, the main thing I was looking forward to from this series was epic matches, which that 3rd set (had it finished) would have been one of the best tvz's all season. Perhaps the two will set up a revenge match to settle things (also with any luck flash doesn't start slumping because of this experience).
Reguardless of who should of won game 3, the fact that jd won and flashes dad got thrown out of the stadium destroyed flash, i mean look at his face when he GG the 4th set, i got so upset i started crying! That situation is just so unfair to flash, its not his fualt the power went out so why is he forced to play the next game while his mind is so mixed up! Extremely unfair situation! Kespa @#$% you!
i don't think that it was correct to give jd a win. sure, he was ahead by the time the game crashed, but i don't think this is enough to legitimate the way kespa handled this - it's not fair. they should have done a rematch instead.
On January 24 2010 16:40 deus_073 wrote: Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up.
Actually, no. Because Flash had an army, had minerals, and thus had options. That is a completely different situation then this game where Flash had nothing. There is a potential for comeback when you have units and an army. Esp when you have mapcontrol.
I don't know which version you have seen of set 3, the live stream version or the actual studio one that lasts :30 seconds longer then the one that went out on tv and internet (tape delays etc), but in set 3 flash was pushed out of the 7:00 and had around 10 marines left. His main had mined out, and 1 patch from the natural was just mined out meaning that the others were soon to follow. The mineral only exp flash took at 9:00 has 6 patches.
Correspondingly, JD had secured the 7:00 and gotten both gas's up and running and had started the 1:00. The count is 5(3.5) to 2(.5) gas, and 12?(6) to ~20(conservative) mineral patches. Even with JD's relatively poor saturation, his economy would far outpace Flash's.
Economics notwithstanding, JD had heavily reinforced his 7:00 which was running both gas with 3 workers a piece and another few drones on minerals. Flash had retreated about 10 marines and a 3-5 medics to his 9:00 to attempt to defend.
Now tell me what options Flash had? Press the attack and lose everything? Counter and hope to trade his single mining base for the not defended 1:00 that was building? Perhaps try a nice drop into JD's main and kill all his tech? Attempt to turtle inside a 3 entrance base with no irradiate support or tanks against a mass of ultras and lings with swarm?
Either way, he has no means of stopping the ultras and lings even disregarding swarm. If you saw the HQ vod, it would not have been surprising to see flash GG.
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: deus_073 is correct.
On January 24 2010 17:05 Plethora wrote: If it happens one minute earlier its almost certainly a regame, one minute later and its probably a hell of a lot easier to call it for JD.
oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case. Like others have said (as well as deus_073 just above), had game 2 crashed a few mins before the end, it would be heavily weighed in JDs favor (bases, tech, econ, map control).
Flash pretty much DID have 0 minerals, 0 mining expos (6 patchs...really?) and 0 army (10 marines..) vs JD producing everything.
Again, people try to draw parallels between set 2 and set 3 simply because one player has an advantage. Yet the same people that draw this parallel seem to ignore how strikingly different the two examples are. Advantages do not all come equal. Some are greater then others, and some are only temporary. Others are inherent, and still others are lasting.
I think everybody who comments on the matter should find the HQ version of the VOD and watch the end of that before making assumptions. As much of a difference as that 1 minute makes, so too does an additional 30 seconds. What seems to be a tossup with micro as the deciding factor situation turns into a GG at any moment situation.
everybody who denies that JD was in an overwhelming lead and had it won 99% (yes 99%) obviously has no clue about TvZ. with like 3 vessels and 2 depleted geysirs and your main/nat being mined out its fuckin over if you banked on m&m/vessel only. How on earth anybody can think that flash had a friggin chance in hell doesnt know how easy it is to hold off pure m&m from an expo with sunkens/nydus and defilers. All JD had to do was cast a cpl swarms to buy him another 1-2 minutes (which is stupidly easy with a nydus where you can pop out a defiler just being made in your main) and build up mass ultra/ling from his fresh expansions and then roll over Flash who wouldnt have had enough time, resources and factories to get mass vessels or mass tanks in those 1-2 minutes. With an income of half a geysir and no considerable mass of vessels or tanks, T is just fucked late game, there was NOTHING flash could have done.
Is it reasonable for me to point out that in the end, who won this game isn't as important as how each player responded to the situation? After this happened, Jaedong moved to the next game and continued to execute at championship level, while Flash moved to the next game and lost it in exactly the same way he lost game 1. Regardless of how this decision went, the result of the next game tells us who had the mental fortitude to win the championship.
Frankly, if Flash had been up against someone with the mental strength of Jaedong in the OSL, I think he would have lost that championship too. Movie cracked under the pressure and missed opportunities to win multiple games. Flash is a Starcraft genius, but he had not, before this season, demonstrated a champion's strength of purpose, and I think this incident demonstrates that he's still not there in the way that Jaedong and some of the other greats are.
On January 24 2010 20:49 Iri wrote: Is it reasonable for me to point out that in the end, who won this game isn't as important as how each player responded to the situation? After this happened, Jaedong moved to the next game and continued to execute at championship level, while Flash moved to the next game and lost it in exactly the same way he lost game 1. Regardless of how this decision went, the result of the next game tells us who had the mental fortitude to win the championship.
Frankly, if Flash had been up against someone with the mental strength of Jaedong in the OSL, I think he would have lost that championship too. Movie cracked under the pressure and missed opportunities to win multiple games. Flash is a Starcraft genius, but he had not, before this season, demonstrated a champion's strength of purpose, and I think this incident demonstrates that he's still not there in the way that Jaedong and some of the other greats are.
I feel that no, that isn't reasonable. Dealing in this situation when you are on the winning side is hardly any effort at all. Being on the losing side is when it's hard. But that is not all, being on the losing side while your coaches and father are raging hard leading to your dad being removed by security is not something that would leave anyone uninfluenced.
Jaedong dealt better with what was thrown his way but it was also not in the very least comparable to what Flash had to deal with. The fourth game was played on completely unfair grounds and postponing it would have been the right thing to do. For the large part these unfair mental grounds were created by Flash' dad and not the decision itself.
On January 24 2010 16:40 deus_073 wrote: Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up.
Re-match, the only way to go. 5 running gas? Do you think JD stockpiled it? I know flash did, i know how much gas T's have in the bank after 18 minutes. 3-4 bases did JD have? Well, the 7 o'clock had only 3 drones mining minerals. He had 2 gases, but you know what goes great with gas? Minerals! Main almost out, expo almost out, and that expo near the main. So he had 2+1/2 bases. Flash had 1 mineral only (fresh) and almost mined out expo (not mined out, you can see it on the minimap).
Flash would have taken those odds! Retreating? He has M&M's, of course he is retreating, that's what medic and marine forces do! He had 3-3, not 2-2. JD had 2 sunkens, 2 ultras, 3 zerlings, 2 scourge. Flash would have been able to produce m&m. Not a lot, but he could produce, there is no doubt about this. And you've seen what Flash is able to do with those medic walls. This is pure BS. And we're listening to people saying - hey, kespa did the right thing. Fuck Kespa. They screwed up. Re-match for the spirit of the game, for the fans, for everyone. Neither of the players could have said anything. Now Flash can say something.
Was JD in the lead? Sure. Was he overwhelmingly in the lead? No. Re-match? Yes.
Medic walls are great but let me give you a few stats about that game. If JD was mining the 5 gas he had then he could make an ultralisk every 8 seconds or so. Those ultralisks had the full 6 armour. That means they take 133 marine hits to die. That means that if Flash's entire army at the blackout (at most 26 marines) walked over to JaeDong's rally point and JaeDong allied him and just left his units there taking fire he would still produce ultralisks faster than Flash's entire army could kill them.
On January 24 2010 21:20 roMAD wrote: I've asked fantasy what he thought and he said the decision to give the game to Jaedong was the right one, as he simply put it "jaedong win"
I still think everyone here (foreigners) judge this situation in a very linear and non-dynamic way. Starcraft isn't just resources, but how you use them. And ret, Jaedong didn't have a 99,9% chance of winning, that's using statistics in a very bad way because it's simply false.
Also, why does everyone forget Flash's dropship usage in the game before? He could have pulled off the same thing in this game. Maybe he was right about to. So stop throwing out these arbitrary percentages. If I'd gotten a penny for every time people have decided that a game is over, but it ends up being won by the other player, I'd be rich by now.
It's funny, people go "LOL IT'S OVER" "GG ALREADY". A couple minutes later they're like "oh how did THAT happen". People have called games like this one before. And been wrong.
Putting 16 marines into two dropships leaves him with 10 marines to defend 9 and isn't going to do any damage to a scourge/defiler/ultra/nydus Zerg on a land map. You have to be able to see the difference between these games because they are in no way alike. I'm sorry but Flash had no hope in this game except for a miracle (which is not something standard as dropships, it would have to be something like Jaedong fully plagueing 12 of his ultalisks).
It's obvious that JD took game three before the blackout even happened, what really upsets me about this final is Flash's dad being unable to contain his rage, unsettling Flash mentally and ruining his chances of taking game 4, thus eliminating any chance of a good series in what should have been (and was unfolding towards being) the best msl final ever. What the hell was he thinking? Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I'm tired and this whole thing sucks...
edit: I just feel that if it weren't for that this whole shitty blackout situation could have been salvaged. Oh cruel world!
I'm now just waiting for some official input - from Flash, from JD, from Kespa, from the coaches, etc. If Flash and Flash's coach say "hey, it was the right thing to do" and that not just from good manner, then point closed. Flash as far as i saw from the 1st and 4th set was really well mannered and didn't stay in the game any longer than needed. He didn't try any ridiculous comebacks, thus i feel his opinion will settle things out. On the other hand, i don't really think a progamer can get upset on Kespa (maybe i'm wrong)... even if you're Flash, thus making any interview being equal to ziltch.
I think people are disapointed because game 4 was a crappy way to end a final. If we had a great game 4 ending with an epic battle. It wouldn't have been so hard to accept the win by referee. The hours of wait before the last game made things worse.
Instead we have a game where i get the feeling Flash just tought screw all this shit i already won OSL, i don't care anymore.
It left me a bit angry at him to throw the game like that.
You know... I wouldn't be suprised if both players started slumping after this.
Flash for obvious reasons, resentment and disapointment. Jaedong because despite putting in all the hard yards and playing the best starcraft of his entire, already very impressive, career... will undoubtably feel hollow about his victory, not to mention others feeling he was given the Gold by Kespa.
Forget about whether Flash had 2 or 3 vessels and JD had 5 gas or 6 or whether Flash could have stopped 50 Ultras etc. etc. None of this is relevant after KESPA made their decision nearly 48 hours ago
Look at what was denied because MBC screwed up in such a large way much, much more than KESPA (if KESPA screwed up at all)
This was to be the best finals in a long time, both players nearly in top form and their rivalry at its peak with the Ever OSL Ro8 fresh on their minds.
oh ya... there was this little hiccup about the venue, but that was nervously laughed off as not that important to the quality of the games
game 3 f***ed up the finals hardcore
no matter how it was going to be decided, one player was Finished, in a Bo5 that's tied neck and neck, the letdown involved in giving a win (or giving a rematch where JD was almost assured to lose, you cant pull off a miracle like that twice) the losing player is assured to lose game 4, in a lame way, which is exactly what happened. had JD finished of the 3rd set [in an epic DS Ultra/ling break] Flash would've played even better in the 4th set and I believe would have used the macro abilities of Fighting Spirit to MnM ->Bionic ->Many Tanks =Win We would've one of the most epic series culminating in a game 5...of that I have no doubt...but... ...Flash was crushed and there was no turning back No matter what strategists are saying now, the fact is that in the heat of a game a terran with good (forget gosu micro) can make amazing turnarounds or maybe not...maybe JD is too good mechanically, too unrelenting to give flash an inch, maybe 2 minutes later Flash would've GG'ed but that hope was crushed, exterminated, never to see the light of day again.
game 4 was flash hitting a wall, a great black unrelenting wall darker than JD himself it might've gone the other way but the Refs made a decision and I am sure it was a painful one, but a decision had to be made
The rest is history...
What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time. He overcame unfavorable maps and the best TvZ player ever in order to claim his third individual league championship in three seasons. Plexa's TLFE has never been more relevant.
I've come up with an analogy I like, for whatever its worth.
Say this is basketball. Game three was the equivalent of Flash being down 3 points at the buzzer and taking a crazy off balance half court shot as time expired (which would have only tied the game, not won it). Then, as the ball is arcing towards the basket, the whole basket collapses and no one will ever know if it would have gone in or not. It *probably* wouldn't have gone in, but we don't know that and never will know.
(And please note, since I already hear the responses, the part of this analogy that is equivalent to how big JD's lead was is not the point margin, but how far away and how crazy Flash's shot would have been).
On January 24 2010 22:19 Foucault wrote: I agree with Chill.
I still think everyone here (foreigners) judge this situation in a very linear and non-dynamic way. Starcraft isn't just resources, but how you use them. And ret, Jaedong didn't have a 99,9% chance of winning, that's using statistics in a very bad way because it's simply false.
Also, why does everyone forget Flash's dropship usage in the game before? He could have pulled off the same thing in this game. Maybe he was right about to. So stop throwing out these arbitrary percentages. If I'd gotten a penny for every time people have decided that a game is over, but it ends up being won by the other player, I'd be rich by now.
It's funny, people go "LOL IT'S OVER" "GG ALREADY". A couple minutes later they're like "oh how did THAT happen". People have called games like this one before. And been wrong.
totally agree.
stop saying that people are ignorants. The vast majority in tl.net knows about the game and are many of us that know a lot about strategy, tvz, and statistics.
The decision was not fair, there is no rep and the show was screwed for that decision, they need to learn about other sports and disciplines, maybe some US enginners behind baseball or basketball would help a lot in korea esport scene.
The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong.
A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play.
Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong.
A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play.
Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
well, maybe not happy but at least we should stop the rage. It has no use after all..
Some PLEASE reply to my question: 1. How does a frickin heat fan- thats what a couple of volts?- able to cut the power on an entire building? 2. How is this godam building so poorly set up that it has no back up?
On January 25 2010 04:33 ODiE wrote: Some PLEASE reply to my question: 1. How does a frickin heat fan- thats what a couple of volts?- able to cut the power on an entire building? 2. How is this godam building so poorly set up that it has no back up?
Props to MBC and Nate.
1: It's not earthed properly. 2: Human error. In this case, the electrician.
On January 25 2010 03:10 bias- wrote: The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong.
A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play.
Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
Well that's the problem i think, we got 2 great games as apetizer. Then come the 3rd wonderful game and BAM blackout. We saw only a small part of Jaedong amazing play when i was expecting a full dish of it.
It as if you're near climax then suddenly you're kicked in the balls. xD
Edit : First there's suprise, then you're hurting, and in the end you're angry a bit like what's happening now on TL.
On January 24 2010 21:20 roMAD wrote: I've asked fantasy what he thought and he said the decision to give the game to Jaedong was the right one, as he simply put it "jaedong win"
Something might have gotten lost in the translation?
-_- I don't think we should be angry at Kespa. Did they make the right decison? I think they should have done a regame, but their decision wasn't terrible. What we should be angry at is the MSL/allowing such an event to occur (the power outage). Its pretty fucking ridiculous that can happen at the MSL FINALS. I can't help but feel it taints the victory of Jaedong, just a little.
To all the people whining about kespa's judgement: ffs stop. If they had set up a rematch, it wouldve created a torrent of jaedong fans raging. Either way one of the players was getting screwed because of the outage. channel your rage towards mbc game not kespa; kespa has definitely fucked up in the past in several occasions but this one was beyond their powers.
I feel bad for both players. It seems ridiculous at this day and age where there isn't some way to recreate the game exactly how it was, with unit placement, hp levels and all.
SC2 really needs a map state recovery feature.
for sure and i hope Blizzard is watching this example. For esports to be treated seriously especially in the US some better tech or rules need to be worked out to prevent this sort of thing. It's almost like in MMA where after an eye gouge or low blow, there's an attempt to recreate the last positioning for the two fighters when the fight restarts. Other than that, re game is pretty necessary. Flash wasn't in a absolute lose situation, he hadn't taken any damage to any of his bases and who's to say he couldn't have defended a 3rd adequately. On the other hand, i don't think JD should have surrendered the next game auto matically like some people think. He's not a fool. He knew who he was going up against. They may be friends and practice partners in RL but this is the championships. Too bad this trophy will always have an asterisk next to it. JD played great aside from the misuse of GS tech and would have crushed any other terran in the world.
Thinking about the technical mishap we forget to mention how much of an epic game 3 was. I think it was ballsy to rush to hive relying on tech and upgrades, and then have to defend for so long without dark swarm or lurkers. After sucessfully defending the 7:00 it was clear that it was the right choice although i don't see any other zerg other than JD making it work. Flash was amazing too with constant pressure, finally killing the 1:00 and forcing JD to lose his muta group.
I don't claim to be an expert at this game, but I'm surprised so many people are "okay" with giving Jaedong the win. Is StarCraft some kind of static sport where you can calculate an advantage by assigning points to units, map placement and economy? Do they, after calculating the points of pieces in chess and adding values to board control, stop the game at an arbitrary point in time because player X has such an advantage? What about football games where you're about to lose, but in a last-second extra point kick you block the kick, grab the ball, and run all the way for a winning touchdown? 1.5 seconds in a basketball game for one last shot from the sidelines?
There are plenty of examples of SC games where one player was clearly ahead. And yet, the game continued to take unbelievable turns until the opposing player pulled out a victory. If a similar situation had occurred and you called the game in one player's favor you would have missed out on an incredible comeback, and an incredible game.
Because SC is a dynamic game, and if it's going to be a sport you can't be okay with calling games until there is, without any absolute doubt, no possible way for one side to win. A football game with one team down by 21 points with 1 minute left. A basketball game 100-90 and 30 seconds left.
There must have been other options; I don't see why it had to be "Jaedong wins" or "rematch." Why not just skip the game entirely? Move on to game 4. And then game 5. If by then it's 2-2, give a nod to Jaedong's advantage in game 3 and allow him to choose the map for the final game. Redo the series later with different maps. Give the game to Jaedong but make it a Bo7, I don't know but there are more than 2 possibilities.
To just say Jaedong won is a disservice to the sport. Everyone is right; there were no good decisions, but this one was one of the poorer ones.
On January 25 2010 04:33 ODiE wrote: Some PLEASE reply to my question: 1. How does a frickin heat fan- thats what a couple of volts?- able to cut the power on an entire building? 2. How is this godam building so poorly set up that it has no back up?
Props to MBC and Nate.
1: It's not earthed properly. 2: Human error. In this case, the electrician.
Not earthed properly? should only cause his own computer to shortage, not the entire building.
Human error? a massive company like MBC and Nate to make an error on back up? I don't think so, if such a thing truly happened, then the designers of the building are sure to get fired and never find the light of day again.
On January 24 2010 20:52 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:I feel that no, that isn't reasonable. Dealing in this situation when you are on the winning side is hardly any effort at all. Being on the losing side is when it's hard. But that is not all, being on the losing side while your coaches and father are raging hard leading to your dad being removed by security is not something that would leave anyone uninfluenced.
Jaedong dealt better with what was thrown his way but it was also not in the very least comparable to what Flash had to deal with. The fourth game was played on completely unfair grounds and postponing it would have been the right thing to do. For the large part these unfair mental grounds were created by Flash' dad and not the decision itself.
You make a fair point that the tough mental conditions were created by Flash's dad/team, as opposed to the game itself. I don't really have an answer to that beyond my own personal feelings that, since that was neither player's fault, nor the fault of KESPA/MBC/audience/anyone except Flash's support team, postponing the game would have penalized a lot of parties who didn't deserve it, while letting those who created the issue have their way... which leads me to the conclusion that, once KT/Flashdad created such a bad situation, KESPA had no choice but to continue the series.
Honestly, I still feel like the series went to the right person, as Jaedong had beaten Flash in Game 1 using the same strat that Flash had beaten - repeatedly - from every other major zerg in Korea, just on the strength of his mechanics. But you're right, Flash did have to deal with more mental strain caused by game 3 than Jaedong.
Oh well, still some terrific Starcraft for the first 3 games. :-D
EDIT: Apparently I need to clarify. I am referring primarily to game 4 and the various factors that played into the result when I say that Flash's mental state was something he failed to overcome. There are grounds for complaint regarding game 3, but not game 4.
i honestly think they should have regamed because theres to many unknowns of what flash was capable of to combat it.
but ima agree that no matter what the situation was a player would have been screwed regardless of decision. so i will say that if a win HAD to be given then yes it would be more fair to award it to jaedong. but its BS either way for that to happen at a msl finals of all places.
i WANTED jaedong to win. i did not want flash to take the victory and was with jaedong all the way. but for him to win like that is just so anti climatic and just unappealing. it didnt feel like a REAL win at all and im sure alot of korean fans and especially flash fans will feel as if jaedong was struck with pure luck. u can tell at the vicotry celebration that no one hardly cared and almost half the stadium left as if to say "wtf thats BS! fuk that im going home." you can even see that when they came from commercial break right before game 4 ALOT of people already left the stadium after they gave the win to jaedong. and flash was just not himself in game 4 and seem just wrecked.
just honestly did not feel like a real win and tbh even if jaedong did have that match and as much of a fan i am of jaedong ill never consider it a real win.
As the organization, they have to set up the provisions to help prevent this from happening. On this day and age the price for an UPC to backup 2 computers routers, and judges and observers is less than $500, that is a minimal investment Kespa can require out the organizations that run the Tournaments, Nate, Ever, etc,
A rematch was the, or a complete cancellation or postponing of the event, or making it a Bo7 would have been a more better choice than awarding such a crucial game arbitraty to one player.
For all those who claim Kespa made the right call, would you say the same if this would have been the final game? If the winner would have been decided by a judge, instead of the players.
I don't claim to be an expert at this game, but I'm surprised so many people are "okay" with giving Jaedong the win. Is StarCraft some kind of static sport where you can calculate an advantage by assigning points to units, map placement and economy? Do they, after calculating the points of pieces in chess and adding values to board control, stop the game at an arbitrary point in time because player X has such an advantage? What about football games where you're about to lose, but in a last-second extra point kick you block the kick, grab the ball, and run all the way for a winning touchdown? 1.5 seconds in a basketball game for one last shot from the sidelines?
There are plenty of examples of SC games where one player was clearly ahead. And yet, the game continued to take unbelievable turns until the opposing player pulled out a victory. If a similar situation had occurred and you called the game in one player's favor you would have missed out on an incredible comeback, and an incredible game.
Because SC is a dynamic game, and if it's going to be a sport you can't be okay with calling games until there is, without any absolute doubt, no possible way for one side to win. A football game with one team down by 21 points with 1 minute left. A basketball game 100-90 and 30 seconds left.
There must have been other options; I don't see why it had to be "Jaedong wins" or "rematch." Why not just skip the game entirely? Move on to game 4. And then game 5. If by then it's 2-2, give a nod to Jaedong's advantage in game 3 and allow him to choose the map for the final game. Redo the series later with different maps. Give the game to Jaedong but make it a Bo7, I don't know but there are more than 2 possibilities.
To just say Jaedong won is a disservice to the sport. Everyone is right; there were no good decisions, but this one was one of the poorer ones.
I think you should acquaint yourself with a better analogy. Y'see, baseball games can get cancelled due to the weather pretty often in a rainout. Here's what can happen...
# If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. # If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings.
from rainout(sports) wiki.
it also says a tie would have it be scheduled later and start where they left off (not really possible here)
As you can see, the game can be called even if there's a chance there's a way to come back. Hell, it's possible to get 20 points in the last inning. Of course, that's highly unlikely. Again, aside from their own judgement, what other better way to handle a situation in one person is winning (and pretty clearly if ya look at the replays, flash would have to have been lucky to win (not sayin it's not possible, i'm just saying - 20 points in the last inning is possible, just chances aren't, same as chances were that flash wouldn't be able to come back.)
Can call it a bad decision or a poor decision all you like but it's not fair to have extra games to someone who was winning. And he was winning, (at the time at least)
I mean really, if you're playing football and you're up 21 points at the last minute and something goes wrong. I'd be super pissed that the other team would get a chance to redeem themselves after being in the losing position. What you're basically saying is this: Even though our team was beating ya home field (terran favoured) if we can beat you at your home field it's okay (despite seeing the playbook they had to offer in that game) How is that fair for them when they had the win pretty much in the bag?
Also one of the bigger differences between rescheduling this, even if they could and would, is that it hardly makes it live and hardly makes it quick thinking. Giving them plenty of time to think of what to do next. The game ended when it did and jaedong was winning. There's really not much else to say. The only thing you can argue would be if he was clearly winning or there was an even shot at both winning. And i think flash had the burden on him.
On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote: Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory.
It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know.
It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic
Jaedong played brilliantly against Flash, who the vast majority was betting on heavily, and now his rightfully won games 1 and 4 are totally eclipsed by a referee decision on game 3 that most ppl believe he was clearly winning as well, against all odds.
I also second Day[9] on another aspect:
Shame on MBC for such miserable fail, not just the power outage but the whole set up.
you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
Wimbledon would be a fucked up tournament if they had kespa-rules.
As many have said, it doesn't matter if jaedong would have one in 99/100. This will leave bitter taste to the winner in any way. To not be able to be proud of your victorys, just because some organisation wants to take the easy way out.. bleh, unforgivable.
On January 25 2010 15:30 battarro wrote: you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
"you are being a clear ****". where does it say that the game is replayed?! "The game picks up from where it left off.". And u can`t pick the game up from where it was in starcraft, so bad analogy. Also read my post before this. Things should be clear if you think for a second and stop the bias towards flash. The only thing is that it rubbed us the pleasure of a great final, because of the 4th game that followed. The decision was the best that they could`ve taken.
Clearly MSL is most at fault but kespa still made a shit decision. At best this will only cast doubt on a very well deserved 5th badge. At worse they denied flash a chance to make history.
Was jd ahead? Sure. But the fairness of this decision shouldn't be determined based on what would be the most fair for that game alone. Starcraft is different from other sports because one game can have a big influence on all the other games. When a player cheeses in game 1 of a bo5 that sets the tempo for the entire series. The effect of that decision on flash is much bigger than the reverse decision for jd. I think its safe to say that at the time flash still though he had a fighting chance and to go from that to needing to 2 0 jaedong is rough and you can see it on his face. Ruling a regame does much less to jd, for kespa to say that the game was not conclusive is something that at the time jaedong could not have been too upset about.
Even if jaedong deserved to win the game it doesn't mean he deserved the massive advantage of facing an utterly discouraged and mistake prone flash in the rest of the series. If this had happened bo7 I don't think I would be this disgusted.
On January 25 2010 16:20 phlamez wrote: Clearly MSL is most at fault but kespa still made a shit decision. At best this will only cast doubt on a very well deserved 5th badge. At worse they denied flash a chance to make history.
Was jd ahead? Sure. But the fairness of this decision shouldn't be determined based on what would be the most fair for that game alone. Starcraft is different from other sports because one game can have a big influence on all the other games. When a player cheeses in game 1 of a bo5 that sets the tempo for the entire series. The effect of that decision on flash is much bigger than the reverse decision for jd. I think its safe to say that at the time flash still though he had a fighting chance and to go from that to needing to 2 0 jaedong is rough and you can see it on his face. Ruling a regame does much less to jd, for kespa to say that the game was not conclusive is something that at the time jaedong could not have been too upset about.
Even if jaedong deserved to win the game it doesn't mean he deserved the massive advantage of facing an utterly discouraged and mistake prone flash in the rest of the series. If this had happened bo7 I don't think I would be this disgusted.
dude, it was a map that favored terran. You honestly think that if they regame`d JD could`ve won without a plan?! It would hurt JD even more.
On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote: Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory.
It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know.
It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic
Why not? It has even been done before, please explain your reasoning behind this absolute statement
On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote: Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory.
It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know.
It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic
Why not? It has even been done before, please explain your reasoning behind this absolute statement
it has no logical reasoning, believe me. edit: I mean, I`m tired of all these fanboys that simply cannot get it. Yeah, we all feel awful that the final wasn`t the one we all expected. But it was just MBCs fault. Kespa made the right decision...maybe it`s not fair, but there was not a better one.
The saying around here is that Kespa based the decision of game 3 on resources and number of bases. I read on a chinese site that it's based on population and resource.
The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong.
A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play.
Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
On January 25 2010 22:05 PIJAMA wrote: just watched the matches and i believe jaedong was not on advantage on match 3... it was the worst finals ever...
ooooooh snap, just read the other 999 comments about this please.
On January 25 2010 22:05 PIJAMA wrote: just watched the matches and i believe jaedong was not on advantage on match 3... it was the worst finals ever...
I think Bisu would have pulled back that game vs July. With a player as good as Bisu you just don't know.
On January 25 2010 15:30 battarro wrote: you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
did ya miss the part where I talked about how it can't really be continued? The only time where it says they would replay an entire game would be if it's not half way done and if it's not a playoff game, which both really don't apply.
Anyways, like I said earlier - you can't just continue it because the whole purpose is that it's a fast paced and intellect game. It's like if ya stopped chess and came back to it a day later. Any expert woulda probably had all ins and outs already known. You'd just ruin the game from starting where they left off.
My point was, is that there are a lot of sports who hardly regame. Given the fact that it's not really possible to start off where they were, I'd rather they went to the person who was winning last rather than having to restart a whole new game(for the sake of the winner).
I mean, it's obviously not fair for someone who's winning and so much time elapsed in the game that they just regame. Jaedong would have to get some advantage for being in the lead...
I can't say I've got in depth knowledge of other sports, but I don't know any other sport that'd change the number of rounds. Even if it was changed to best of 7 and you gave him that game.. It's still GIVING him the game... Whatevs though, I think it was an outstanding game and jaedong played well to hold that off and get in the position he was. Just as i think it was for flash in game 2.
It is actually the other way around, most sport, like baseball, on a playoff situation, they replay or try to continue at a later time, they don't adjudicate the winner by committee. Either way congrats to Jaedong and his judge appointed victory.
did ya miss the part where I talked about how it can't really be continued? The only time where it says they would replay an entire game would be if it's not half way done and if it's not a playoff game, which both really don't apply.
Anyways, like I said earlier - you can't just continue it because the whole purpose is that it's a fast paced and intellect game. It's like if ya stopped chess and came back to it a day later. Any expert woulda probably had all ins and outs already known. You'd just ruin the game from starting where they left off.
My point was, is that there are a lot of sports who hardly regame. Given the fact that it's not really possible to start off where they were, I'd rather they went to the person who was winning last rather than having to restart a whole new game(for the sake of the winner).
I mean, it's obviously not fair for someone who's winning and so much time elapsed in the game that they just regame. Jaedong would have to get some advantage for being in the lead...
I think the fact that baseball can be continued and SC cannot is irrelevant. If the rules are unwilling to give a team a game during the playoffs under any circumstance, then obviously there is a principle behind it that the game cannot be decided. If SC is to be respected in a similar fashion then the same principle must apply.
My point is still this. Unless you can substantiate that there was zero possibility (aside from throwing the game) for one person to win, it's at least equally unfair to say one person won as it is to rematch. At what point in time can you determine that? Forget other sports, how many SC games have we seen where we think "Oh, so and so has it in the bag" only to have the game take a completely different direction?
I understand that the game cannot be continued. But are there really no decisions that could be more fair than giving Jaedong the game or having a rematch on that same map? If a baseball game is rained out, it still cannot truly be "continued." Players will come back into the game with different thoughts and expectations. Fan reactions will be different.
Think about it this way. Despite an incredible game 1, equally strong game 3 for as long as it lasted, Jaedong will still have won game 3 by a judge decision and game 4 as an extension of that decision. That is no way to win a finals and he cannot be happy with that.
On January 26 2010 00:27 project_d.rock wrote:I think the fact that baseball can be continued and SC cannot is irrelevant. If the rules are unwilling to give a team a game during the playoffs under any circumstance, then obviously there is a principle behind it that the game cannot be decided. If SC is to be respected in a similar fashion then the same principle must apply.
My point is still this. Unless you can substantiate that there was zero possibility (aside from throwing the game) for one person to win, it's at least equally unfair to say one person won as it is to rematch. At what point in time can you determine that? Forget other sports, how many SC games have we seen where we think "Oh, so and so has it in the bag" only to have the game take a completely different direction?
1) The fact that games can be continued in baseball is *highly* relevant. Yes, a game continued on another day is not the same game. But it's still a lot better than having to start over from scratch. I don't think you're going to find anyone - *anyone* - arguing that, if KeSPA had somehow managed to recreate the game in the exact state it was in at blackout and let the players continue from there, that that wouldn't be the optimal solution. Clearly it would be. But this is not an option. So while it's true that, per the baseball example, restarting from where it left off is better than awarding a win, that in no way implies that a regame from scratch is better than awarding a regame.
2) It's a matter of degrees. Amazing comebacks to happen in sports. But there's always the consideration of whether there's "enough time left" to turn things around. If it's the bottom of the 9th with two outs and you're still down by 10 runs... yeah, okay, it's not technically over, but it would require a serious meltdown by the opposing pitching staff to pull it off. It may not be a guaranteed win... but it's pretty darn close.
So: let's say a baseball game is 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th inning, with two outs, and hail the size of golf balls starts coming down. Finishing then and there is not an option. So they have 3 options:
a) Award the team that's up 10-0 with two outs in the bottom of the 9th the win. b) Play the last out some other day. c) Restart the game from scratch, 0-0 in the first inning.
Now: b may well be the fairest choice. But you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that c is more fair than a. Anything can happen... but you have to make some acknowledgement that it would take something truly improbable for it to happen.
I'm not going to argue whether or not Flash's situation was more or less dire than that. I'm not qualified to make that assessment. All I'm saying is that there *are* circumstances - even with the game isn't technically 100% decided - where awarding a win is more fair than regaming. And I do think there's a solid argument to be made that this is one of them.
What you are missing is that on baseball, and on a playoff game. you can not award the game without being played on its entirety, even on a such lopsided scenario.
EXCEPTION: Optional Rules 4.12(a)(7), 4.12(a)(8) and 4.12(a)(9) for National Association Leagues will not apply to the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship season or league playoffs.
This wasn't "the last scheduled game between the two" players. That just says you can't award a championship on a rainout (or whatever). And I'm pretty sure that even then, what would be ruled in practice is that they'd pick up where they left off rather than starting a new game from scratch.
who is to say flash wasn't about to come back out of nowhere with some amazing m&m dropship play? I thought it was known that a starcraft game can change in an instant?
So: let's say a baseball game is 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th inning, with two outs, and hail the size of golf balls starts coming down. Finishing then and there is not an option. So they have 3 options:
a) Award the team that's up 10-0 with two outs in the bottom of the 9th the win. b) Play the last out some other day. c) Restart the game from scratch, 0-0 in the first inning.
Now: b may well be the fairest choice. But you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that c is more fair than a. Anything can happen... but you have to make some acknowledgement that it would take something truly improbable for it to happen.
I'm not going to argue whether or not Flash's situation was more or less dire than that. I'm not qualified to make that assessment. All I'm saying is that there *are* circumstances - even with the game isn't technically 100% decided - where awarding a win is more fair than regaming. And I do think there's a solid argument to be made that this is one of them.
I agree there are circumstances where awarding a win is the not just as fair as could be but probably the right thing to do, and your situation is likely one of them. The win can be substantiated, the probability of 10 runs in 1 out at the bottom of the 9th is so close to zero it's negligible.
But SC is more fluid than baseball. There are no scores, no runs, no men on base. What situation in SC is equally as dire as being 10 runs down with 1 out left at the bottom of 9th? Neither of us clearly knows if Flash's falls into that category. I've yet to read a convincing argument (that isn't blatantly biased) that game 3 was so much in favor of Jaedong (or not in favor) that a Flash comeback was nigh impossible. I still think awarding the win is equally unfair/fair as having redone the match, especially with how game 4 turned out.
And I still think there must have been another option. Until then, I fully expect Kespa to hash out some method that will consistently render a win in any future similar circumstance.
Cleveland scored 9 runs on the 9th inning with two outs in a comeback to beat Washington 14-13. Another one: The Cleveland Indians trailed the Seattle Mariners 8-1 going into the bottom of the 9th in a 2001 game, then scored 8 runs to win 9-8.
Players make mistakes, Look at JD mismanaged of his Ultra leaving them out of the Swarm and losing two of them on a clear mistake. Same as flash mistake after taking down 1:00 coming for the kill on 3:00 and being flanked by the ultras, that play was the tuning point of the game. Excellent pincer by JD, using the border as a corner.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. I mean, I feel that the arguments in terms of Flash's small army size and dwindling economy versus Jaedong's stable position and growing economy is fairly compelling. Some people - apparently including yourself - don't. And that's fine. It's just hard to argue the point when you dismiss the significant and detailed analysis of the situation that has occurred as "biased". Which is not to say that there aren't some people on that side of the debate who are biased - I'm just noting that every detailed analysis I've seen based on counting units and econ comes up heavily in Jaedong's favor, and all the arguments in favor of Flash seem to come down to "well, it's Flash, and SC is a dynamic game, so maybe he could do something cool". If you feel otherwise, so be it. As I say, I'm not really here to debate that.
The point I'm attempting to make is this: there's a sentiment, expressed by yourself and others, that unless the game in indisputably over in favor of one player, it should be a regame. There's a sentiment that an awarded game should not happen in the finals under circumstances. There's a sentiment that it doesn't really matter how badly Jaedong was winning, it should have been a regame. And my point is: I find this point of view ridiculous. It *very much* matters how far ahead Jaedong was. It *very much* matters how close to dead Flash was. As if it were only a slight lead, the KeSPA decision is clearly bad. But if Flash really was in serious trouble - 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th type trouble - then the decision was the right one. Hence, it seems to me that the debate should not be whether it's ever right to give a win in the finals, but whether Jaedong's lead was sufficient to warrant it.
The disagreement at least from me comes from having the judge awarding the winner. Let that winner be JD, or Flash. It is the principle of having a third entity decide the outcome, when neither players were not at fault. Would you say the same if this would have been Game 5, and having the winner be decided like that. It would have been a travesty, having one outsider decide the outcome.
It's not defensible that Jaedong had this game "in the bag". Even with his resource advantage something could have happened, had the game cut out in the infamous FBH Savior game as Savior was rolling over FBH's main, who wouldn't have thought that Savior had the game 100% won. It's impossible to assign a definite value to a Terran like Flash coming back in that game. The question is whether or not Jaedong's advantage in this game deserved a) awarding him the win in this game and b) the psychological damage to flash that would effect the rest of series. By ruling in favor of Jaedong, Kespa is putting flash at a severe disadvantage to win the series, much more so than if Jaedong had simply won the game. While we can all look at it afterwards and say that Jaedong was very much in the lead, emotional reactions from the players are based on their POV at the time of the game with limited information about their opponents relative strength. To say that the match was not sufficiently conclusive would have probably had much less of an effect of Jaedong given that he is still 1-1 and needing to win a BO3 with Flash. To say that the match goes to Jaedong when Flash thought he had a chance of winning has a much greater effect on him given that he would need to 2 0 the best Zerg in the world to win.
Would it have been shitty for Jaedong to replay a Terran favored map? Yes, it sucks but that was the fault of the map pool to begin with, under this interpretation of fairness we should have just handed Jaedong a game to begin with to counteract the map imbalance which is retarded.
On January 26 2010 00:27 project_d.rock wrote: I understand that the game cannot be continued. But are there really no decisions that could be more fair than giving Jaedong the game or having a rematch on that same map?
Put yourself in JD's shoes. Is there really a decision that'd make you satisfied for having being in the lead in an uphill battle of a terran favoured map? Honestly, I can't really see any. Would ya have to make Flash play Zerg against JD on the same map while JD plays terran? lol. Really though, I can't make a decision that would be fair for JD in ANY situation. Seeing as how he was in the lead, I'd think the only decision that'd be fair for him would be the only decision - but that's just me.
Redo the game and that favors Flash who was in the losing position not because of anyone else but because of himself (and jaedong doing well to defend)
So yeah, if you can answer your own question with any other better decision that would favor jaedong for having been in the lead, go out and attempt to say it. I mean, fantasy had said the game was Jaedong's. Now people can complain about the decision all they want. But really, giving the other options, there really wasn't much they can do and I can't say you can blame them for their decision when no one else can really give out another decision that would be fair. And no, a regame is not fair. It's just not. Go play 3 quarters of a football game, you're in the lead, you're playing AWAY, and most every expert out there is saying that there's little chance aside from your own team making a huge mistake that you'd lose. Game ends, you CAN'T continue. You can't sit there and say, "oh well, looks like ya gotta restart from scratch!" What exactly is fair?
you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.>
On January 26 2010 05:42 dogabutila wrote: So basically, whenever I am about to lose instead of GG I should just kick out a power cable?
If you have been reading this thread at all, you would understand that we are talking about how the power went out, and the person who was ahead at the moment of the crash won the game. If flash "kicked out his power cable" when he was about to lose against Jaedong, he would have received a loss and there would be no rematch.
On January 26 2010 02:17 Steve496 wrote: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. I mean, I feel that the arguments in terms of Flash's small army size and dwindling economy versus Jaedong's stable position and growing economy is fairly compelling. Some people - apparently including yourself - don't. And that's fine. It's just hard to argue the point when you dismiss the significant and detailed analysis of the situation that has occurred as "biased". Which is not to say that there aren't some people on that side of the debate who are biased - I'm just noting that every detailed analysis I've seen based on counting units and econ comes up heavily in Jaedong's favor, and all the arguments in favor of Flash seem to come down to "well, it's Flash, and SC is a dynamic game, so maybe he could do something cool". If you feel otherwise, so be it. As I say, I'm not really here to debate that.
The point I'm attempting to make is this: there's a sentiment, expressed by yourself and others, that unless the game in indisputably over in favor of one player, it should be a regame. There's a sentiment that an awarded game should not happen in the finals under circumstances. There's a sentiment that it doesn't really matter how badly Jaedong was winning, it should have been a regame. And my point is: I find this point of view ridiculous. It *very much* matters how far ahead Jaedong was. It *very much* matters how close to dead Flash was. As if it were only a slight lead, the KeSPA decision is clearly bad. But if Flash really was in serious trouble - 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th type trouble - then the decision was the right one. Hence, it seems to me that the debate should not be whether it's ever right to give a win in the finals, but whether Jaedong's lead was sufficient to warrant it.
I've never once said that it doesn't matter how far ahead Jaedong was. In fact, that's my entire point. If we're going to say that it's possible to determine at X time that the game can be awarded to player A, then not only should X time be a point where it's nearly impossible for player B to win, X time should be something that can committed to so that should a situation like this ever happen again, we could--through the same set of tests--determine who would win. And I am not comfortable with using game 3 of this series as a precedent.
I also did not say they should have played the game again. In fact I've said over and over that both decisions are equally unfair. I'd be equally as uncomfortable about that and I'm sure there'd be all the rage and uproar over it too. My question is, are there any other options that (mathematically, if we could) would be less unfair overall? Of course in hindsight it's easier to see how out of balance awarding game 3 made game 4.
Our difference isn't that we disagree over whether a game can be awarded to someone. It's that you're sure that Jaedong was far enough ahead that it was impossible for Flash to win. I'm not, though I believe that Jaedong clearly was ahead.
I mean in the end this is one of those "we'll never know" situations. I don't want to make this a bigger deal than it really is the grand scheme of things. I have nothing at stake in either player.
On January 26 2010 06:23 duncannidaho wrote: you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.>
If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it.
I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win.
On January 26 2010 06:23 duncannidaho wrote: you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.>
If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it.
I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win.
The rules are the referee can choose what to do. There is clear precedent for the referee doing this before (Bisu vs July on Blue Storm). This is within the rules and has been done before.
On January 26 2010 06:23 duncannidaho wrote: you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.>
If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it.
I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win.
The rules are the referee can choose what to do. There is clear precedent for the referee doing this before (Bisu vs July on Blue Storm). This is within the rules and has been done before.
This is you know.. slightly different seeing as it was an important game in the Bo5 of a GRAND FINAL.
Everyone saying that the psychological impact of just losing the game 1-2 is much lower than you getting the game completely taken away from you in the first place is absolutely right. In hindsight it was akin to awarding Jaedong 2 games, not just one.
I also love the whole map imbalance issue, as if that's a fault of Flash's to begin with. Maybe if the MSL had some freaking maps that were actually balanced we wouldn't have such a stupid issue to begin with.
There are certain things that are easy to agree with.
1. Jaedong had a clear resource advantage, although not a major overwhelming power economy. 2. Flash recently became fully upgraded and appeared to be regrouping his army for either another assault on 7 or some other purpose. 3. Flash had 3 vessels, and 10 seconds before the outage used 1 Irradiate on an Ultra, and 2 other irradiates about 35 seconds before the outage. 4. Flash had been the aggressor the past 5 minutes. 5. The remaining two Ultralisk were badly damaged at 7. 6. 1 Ultra and a group of lings appeared to be in route.
Unknowns: 1. How much longer was required before another irradiate was ready to take out the lone defiler at 7? 2. How many forces did Jaedong have available to nydus over to support 7 if Flash was only regrouping to make another assault?
And the most important question is
1. Would 7 fall? If 7 was likely to fall, all of the position and resource arguments in favor of Jaedong are much weaker.
The match appeared to be at the tipping point. And the tipping point was the battle for 7. Flash had been assaulting and assaulting that expansion. Towards the very last seconds before the blackout, and most people here agree, Jaedong had finally secured 7. He had two sunkens down, a defiler in defense, and who knows what else to shuttle over in the Nydus. Flash was for the first time retreating, and it did not appear that the remaining group of M&M posed a sufficient threat to 7 to warrant a regame.
Jaedong wins.
All the people arguing about it being a "T favored map" or the "Psychological impact of a regame," don't seem to understand that these points have NO RELEVANCE in determining whether or not a regame should be awarded. If you can't see this, read the rules.
That was SO damn terrible. Actually, i liked MSL little bit more than OSL because games and matchups were more exiting. However, The blackout was damn disapointing. How the hell could that be happend?
I don't see how this game can even be compared to July vs. Bisu. That game was very clearly a no win situation for Bisu. He had no units and no production facilities, and hydras were killing his base. Flash was mining mins and producing units. Also, that was a much lower profile game than the MSL finals.
Obviously nobody cares, and it doesn't matter anymore, but I want my opinion out in the open. You can't give out starleague titles based on a player simply having an advantage. And as far as pulling random statistics like "Jaedong had it 99%" .... that is completely arbitrary and meaningless. Now I'm not claiming to be a great player or anything, but I do know a fair bit about the game, and small groups of 3-3 rines are capable of magic against late game zerg. Clearly it would have been tough for Flash, but the simple fact is that Jaedong never "won" the game, period.
When I was finished watching the matches the other night, I couldn't help but feel that esports permanently lost something that night in terms of legitimacy. If we looked hard enough, we saw the ugly reality of professional starcraft, that it is on the life support that is cashflow. So much for fair competition, sportsmanship, and love of the game.
It is true that there was no way to make a fair decision after the power failure, but that does not justify anything. It's not like this scenario was not totally unpredictable. It was inevitably going to happen at some point, we are talking about a PC game running on Windows. Such scenarios should have been taken into consideration when planning ie. there should have at least been an unambiguous rule to handle such situations. I feel that the entire event should have been replayed, but of course too much money was already invested in the event. Logistically it would not have been possible -- which is exactly why they should have planned better.
Now I am feeling something that I haven't experienced in well over three years. I complete lack of interest in watching professional nerds play broodwar.
On January 26 2010 06:23 duncannidaho wrote: you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.>
If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it.
I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win.
The rules are the referee can choose what to do. There is clear precedent for the referee doing this before (Bisu vs July on Blue Storm). This is within the rules and has been done before.
This is you know.. slightly different seeing as it was an important game in the Bo5 of a GRAND FINAL.
Everyone saying that the psychological impact of just losing the game 1-2 is much lower than you getting the game completely taken away from you in the first place is absolutely right. In hindsight it was akin to awarding Jaedong 2 games, not just one.
I also love the whole map imbalance issue, as if that's a fault of Flash's to begin with. Maybe if the MSL had some freaking maps that were actually balanced we wouldn't have such a stupid issue to begin with.
What Kespa did was well within their rights. If a player gets a yellow card in football for something he disagrees with and argues with the ref he'll get a red card. It's his fault for not keeping his cool, accepting these things happen and getting his head back in the game. It's not Kespa's job to worry about whether Flash wouldn't be able to hack it, that's not their concern. It's Flash's job to act like a professional, to acknowledge these things happen and to maintain his cool. Obviously that's made harder for him by the extremely unhelpful reactions of his father and team but those aren't Kespa's fault.
If a referee ends up sending a player off because he loses his cool over a yellow card you don't go "that was totally unfair, he may have only given him a yellow card but it was totally gonna result in a red". You blame the player for being unprofessional. If your argument is that Flash cannot separate his mental state from his game then that is a criticism of him as a player and no fault of anybody but him.
Discussing what the fair action is after a total data loss ad nauseum is fruitless. They made their decision and they will stand by it.
It's now a matter of what happened and what can we (meaning tournament hosts and SC lovers) do to assure this will never be a problem again. Basically how can we fix what can be fixed to try to avoid putting ref's, players and fans in a situation like this. Is this as easy as a battery back up? Can Blizzard be petitioned for a special tournament widget that auto-saves on the ref's computer every x seconds?
I'm mad as hell about this. Not the decision. I'm mad the they allowed something as simple as data integrity to interfere with the outcome of one of the most anticipated SC matches ever. That is the mega blunder. That's what everyone should be raising cane about.
Was the judges decision fair? Not the right question. Why was this situation allowed to occur and how is it avoided in the future. That's the right one.
On January 26 2010 05:42 dogabutila wrote: So basically, whenever I am about to lose instead of GG I should just kick out a power cable?
If you have been reading this thread at all, you would understand that we are talking about how the power went out, and the person who was ahead at the moment of the crash won the game. If flash "kicked out his power cable" when he was about to lose against Jaedong, he would have received a loss and there would be no rematch.
Dont kick out the power cable, ever.
Sorry, i should have quoted the person just above me.
On January 26 2010 13:14 KwarK wrote: What Kespa did was well within their rights. If a player gets a yellow card in football for something he disagrees with and argues with the ref he'll get a red card. It's his fault for not keeping his cool, accepting these things happen and getting his head back in the game. It's not Kespa's job to worry about whether Flash wouldn't be able to hack it, that's not their concern. It's Flash's job to act like a professional, to acknowledge these things happen and to maintain his cool. Obviously that's made harder for him by the extremely unhelpful reactions of his father and team but those aren't Kespa's fault.
If a referee ends up sending a player off because he loses his cool over a yellow card you don't go "that was totally unfair, he may have only given him a yellow card but it was totally gonna result in a red". You blame the player for being unprofessional. If your argument is that Flash cannot separate his mental state from his game then that is a criticism of him as a player and no fault of anybody but him.
Well said. Flash's loss in game 4 was nobody's "fault" so much as his own. His team and father certainly made it more difficult for him, but no blame can be assigned to anyone else for that loss. Outrage over the result of game 3? Certainly, a great deal of blame can be apportioned between the host location and the sponsoring organization (by which I mean MBC, not KESPA.) But game 4? All Flash, baby.
Well if today's game went out with power failure, i am sure that most people would claim that it was over for flash as well... It aint over till its over, specially against flash..
You can't equal one advantage to another when you feel it helps you make a point. Different games have different advantages. There are a lot of points between a 50/50 game becoming a 100/0 game where someone ggs out. You need to be able to see which game is where along this line before you make such statements.
You can't really blame Kespa either... either way they were going to have trouble on their hands. If they gave a regame, Jaedong would have been cheated (now that you guys have watched the VOD). Either way, someone was going to get screwed, whether its Jaedong because he was ahead, or Flash. It was just an unfortunate circumstance that should have never happened. Blame whoever caused the Power to go out.
I do kind of feel bad for both parties though. The big problems were basically this: It was Jaedong vs Flash and it was the MSL Finals. If it would have been Hydra vs Doctor.K(2 random players I thought up), you wouldn't have complained about the decision and thought it was fair... Only because it is Flash vs Jaedong is why you have the problem. Kespa has to stick by their own rules, can't just change it on the go.
I won't comment on how I feel about the decision again but I just wanted to say that when this MSL started I was like: there's no way this can be a bad Tournament. The round of 32 had just so many possible finalists. and what happened then? All these legends like Stork, Bisu Fantasy, Calm, and Sea. Think of the series and which one was the best? No Iris vs Bisu or Nada vs Jangbi to stay in mind. Just a hyped final everybody looked forward to that turned into the lamest series of the whole tournament.
On January 27 2010 08:41 luckybeni2 wrote: I won't comment on how I feel about the decision again but I just wanted to say that when this MSL started I was like: there's no way this can be a bad Tournament. The round of 32 had just so many possible finalists. and what happened then? All these legends like Stork, Bisu Fantasy, Calm, and Sea. Think of the series and which one was the best? No Iris vs Bisu or Nada vs Jangbi to stay in mind. Just a hyped final everybody looked forward to that turned into the lamest series of the whole tournament.
what really you think all the games sucked lolllllllllll???????????
On January 27 2010 08:41 luckybeni2 wrote: I won't comment on how I feel about the decision again but I just wanted to say that when this MSL started I was like: there's no way this can be a bad Tournament. The round of 32 had just so many possible finalists. and what happened then? All these legends like Stork, Bisu Fantasy, Calm, and Sea. Think of the series and which one was the best? No Iris vs Bisu or Nada vs Jangbi to stay in mind. Just a hyped final everybody looked forward to that turned into the lamest series of the whole tournament.
what really you think all the games sucked lolllllllllll???????????
The resolution sucked, no matter how you look at it. And it was even worse because the first two games were so good. Game 3 was on its way to being epic but then the power fiasco happened which robbed us of not only the epicness of game 3 but game 4 as well since game 4 was in fact lame.
Quite frankly I feel robbed as a fan in kind of the same way as if either flash or jaedong had been upset in the semi's and then seen the other just plain steamroll in an uncontested finals. The whole thing just feels empty and anti-climactic.
Every player is entitled to a comeback unless he's just about to type gg. This would hurt jaedong more than flash. Thats the truth, Jaedong would have been more hurt by the power outage. The player having an advantage is always hurt by these things when there's a rematch.
but atleast he would have a chance...
1 No replay.
2 No way of knowing how much cash flash had and a moment.
3 A situation where flash didn't and wouldn't have typed GG for minutes to come.
Jaedong was at an advantage. Big or small, the game wasn't over since jaedong wasn't in flashes base when the blackout occured. He wasn't offensive which gives flash time to make moves.
I also think jaedong would have won that game, but the decision was not a good call.
Flash wasnt himself at the msl PERIOD. i feel bad for flash it is not fair but i guess no one can blame kespa for following the rules that the sc community have agreed to. well i think that flash IS THE TRUE MSL WINNER AFTER DESTROYING JAEDONG IN THE PROLEAGUE. flash just out macroed jaedong, out microed jaedong, and jaeong just got pwned even when he got 4 bases running. FLASH REVENGED JAEONG
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Atrioc/powerunderwhelming.png)
![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/2wqx24w.jpg)
I can't agree with you that the game was entirely over, and I do feel that a regame was merited, but even so that is unfair to Jaedong. It's just too bad that this had to happen.
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