On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players.
Yes, you're in the vast majority of amazing pro gamers that play on a professional team in korea.
On January 24 2010 06:26 Black Gun wrote: underwhelming. this word perfectly describes how i feel after watching this series. game 3 was so epic, had it ended the normal way, it might have been rated one of the best tvz´s in history. actually i think given how fucking good flash was and how unbelievably jaedong played to destroy it, this game by jaedong was the best zvt ever played. i was so thrilled during that final battle for 7 o´clock.... and then the lights turn off, leaving nothing but darkness, void and bitterness.
well, gratz to jaedong anyway, he showed a fantastic series and judging by what they showed prior to the power outage, he absolutely deserves the title.
On January 24 2010 05:53 CommanderFluffy wrote: Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to milk the rivalry franchise between two of the greatest BW players of all time.
Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to give kwark something to do.
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Kwark dude are you joking -_-? You have no idea what was going on from both players perspectives and yet you're going to try and make a UMS to prove that Flash was going to lose without knowing min/gas count, what was queued up, etc? What people had at their rally? And you seem to ignore what I said in my last post?
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players.
Yes, you're in the vast majority of amazing pro gamers that play on a professional team in korea.
How old are you Zee? 1.) Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win... life goes on. 2.) Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win based on completely unfair circumstances... Life goes on. 3.) Sometimes refs make bad decisions, though based on the options they had I think the _refs_ made the only fair decision. (MBC on the other hand reaaaalllly should've put some effort into getting some decent UPS.) In these cases, too, life goes on.
No need to BM everybody who disagrees with you with ad hominem attacks. Thou shalt take a breather and come back and edit thy posts upon thy ire's fading!
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Don't bother it's going to be unbelievably innaccurate.
On January 23 2010 23:13 KwarK wrote: Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over". Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
That's not the point, starcraft at that level is all decision making and control, while JD was definitely ahead, Flash has fought his way out of more dire situations before. To remove the chance to lose or win in the GRAND finals, and have that choice given to you based on SUPPLY count (which was one of Kespas primary reasons) is completely absurd. They made a travesty of the finals, made it seem like they did nothing wrong and further ruined by deciding the victor. This must have completely thrown flash off his game, this is by far the worst finals I have ever witnessed in starcraft history.
I know I'm just QQing now but Goddamn I was looking forward to this. I /facepalmed so hard.
No. No progamer has ever come back from a situation that bad against another progamer. If you think they have you just don't understand how bad it was.
It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
On January 24 2010 07:03 luckybeni2 wrote: It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
Bisu's probes had a better chance of fighting off July's hydralisks than of Flash's pure mnm fighting off Jaedong's defiler-ultra. The worst thing about it, of course, is the mindrape Flash experienced which probably shot his game to hell.
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units.
It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over.
I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about.
Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier.
The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you.
Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir!
I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over.
You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage.
Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz.
But in foreign ZvT knowledge he's more or less unrivaled. Just sayin' that your argument is arbitrary.
On January 24 2010 07:03 luckybeni2 wrote: It doesn't matter who was ahead. Calling that game destroyed the finals and the credit Jaedong gets for his win. Flashs 4th set opening seemed to be influenced by that decision a lot so all you can really give jaedong credit for is to win game 1 and play very good in game 3. In my opinion there were only 2 games played in this final and they are 1 and 2. So I feel this was the worst finals ever (even worse than the zvz). No audience, a called game 3 and a failed shitty build in game 4. That's all I can think of. I'm neither a jaedong nor a flash fan but noone can be satisfied with this. The MSL has lost a lot of it's prestiege today.
I agree. I think overall JD did outplay flash (quality-wise), but he still only won 1 legit match (first match), lost the next, and that's that. Likely would have won the 3rd, but Flash wasn't out yet, was still producing (and since no replay, thats likely as far as this can go). I don't see how people can count match 4 as legitimate, as it was apparent even before the match started that Flash wasn't composed (it was even talked about on vent/irc after Flash re-entered the room).
I think even though the resources were in JD's favor, Flash had the momentum advantage in the game. He'd been pressuring the 7oclock base and taking out masses of Ultras and lings with 3-4 control groups of marins that he was constantly reproducing. He was at 2 gas which is enough to sustain his science vessel fleet in such a gas light build.
He had the momentum and before the outage i was sure Flash was gonna take down the 7oclock base. He had a chance to expo while he was controlling the flow of the game and noone can say that he couldnt have gotten a very quick 3rd with the many extra scvs he had.
This is coming from someone who was rooting for JD, though after this Kespa BS, rooted for Flash in game 4, just on principle.
The game was not over!! It could have went on for another 20 minutes! sigh
Sucks that the best game of the series (by far) was dc'ed in the middle and the ruined by this terrible decision.
I would put this analogy in American football terms...
It's like Jaedong was winning 20-10 in the beginning of the 4th quarter, Flash had the ball and was having a good drive. The game ends abrubtly and the officials give the game to JD. Sure JD statistically had a large advantage, but Flash could have come back and won, how many times have we seen this in sports and SC alike?
btw all these ppl saying Jae-dong had the game in the bag.... Look at the vod, flash pulls back to secure his 3rd and has a nice group of mnm on the highground with vessles. Jaedong just lost almost every unit he had defending 7 oclock, and has mined out his main and nat. He also has a low drone count (due to flash destroying hit 3 oclock expo and killing all those drones just 3 minutes before the crash!) Anyone who thinks Flash is hopeless in this situation (with 8 rax pumping) is delusional.It's really to close to call. Game 2 didn't look good for Flash either when you look at the point when 5 gaurdians are morphing next to flash's nat and jaedong is starting to pump ultra-ling, but 2 wraiths and 2 dropships = flash wins. Can you honestly say that a 2 ship drop on Jae-dongs main in game 3 couldn't have had the same result? IMO either a replay of the game or goto BO7. But to do what they did was a show of utter non-professionalism and stupidity. Did you notice when the lady came out and made the announcement she said "APPEARED" jaedong was ahead? Instead of "Jae-dong was clearly ahead", Because without the replays THEY ADMITTEDLY DON'T EVEN KNOW THEMSELVES! I was very sad to see Flash just give up in game 4 though.... and all the drama.... poor kid Flash father should have made good on his threat and pulled him out of the event right there! Flash's team and coaches should have all walked out and shunned MBC, and two of them should play a rematch on the same maps and broadcast it themselves, to settle all arguments! And someone really needs to teach Koreans how to BOOOO! because when that anouncement was made I think both player's supporters should have BOOOOed the rest of the broadcast! To close I have on last thing to say FUCK MBC, FUCK the MSL, and congrats to both Jaedong and Flash for all they're hard work!
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win.
Already on it.
Kwark dude are you joking -_-? You have no idea what was going on from both players perspectives and yet you're going to try and make a UMS to prove that Flash was going to lose without knowing min/gas count, what was queued up, etc? What people had at their rally? And you seem to ignore what I said in my last post?
Guess there's no arguing this situation.
I figured I'd just be generous to Flash (while assuming he didn't have like 5k mins stacked up) and give him two extra full rounds of production. And I'd be harsh to JD with regard to his drone count and his money stacked up and units (only units were the ones we saw, dots on the minimap were all lings no defilers, ultras and no units coming). Then we'd see what it looked like. We can agree on the basic facts like what was at 7 and what units Flash had. If, after being really generous to Flash and really harsh to JD, Flash could possibly win then you've got your answer, should have been a replay. However, if it shows that after rigging it in Flash's favour so JD somehow had no money, only the units we saw + lings for unknown units and no units making despite having his income JD is still unassailably ahead then that's your answer too.
It's easy to guess Flash's min/gas count if you've ever seen him TvZ before lol. Low. Very low. Same with JD.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8837/ack1z.th.jpg)
Flash father should have made good on his threat and pulled him out of the event right there! Flash's team and coaches should have all walked out and shunned MBC, and two of them should play a rematch on the same maps and broadcast it themselves, to settle all arguments! And someone really needs to teach Koreans how to BOOOO! because when that anouncement was made I think both player's supporters should have BOOOOed the rest of the broadcast! 
