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catabowl
United States815 Posts
And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base. Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:27 SynC[gm] wrote: You do realize that Jaedong was already considered a 'bonjwa' when he won his third OSL. Winning WCG doesn't affect Jaedong's KeSPA ranking at all, and it sure isn't exactly the hardest league for progamers to win in. Players like White-ra and Kolll are good, sure, but progamers are better. And you basically sided with everything Jaedong did good. Not even mentioned any positive thing FlaSh did, so keep your ignorant and biased self to yourself. Jaedong was never considered a bonjwa what are you talking about.... | ||
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AtlaS
United States1001 Posts
Don't get me wrong. After game 1, I was excited. After game 2, I was on the edge of my seat. Midway through game 3, I was off my seat. And then the power outage happened. Ugh. It's painful to see something like that happen in the biggest final EVER. I'm not going to commentate on if the decision to give it to Jaedong was just or not, but what I did want to say is how fulfilling this final was for me. I'm not saying that because the games were terrible because the first 3 games were amazing (minus the loss of power), but after Jaedong took the 4th game (in a pretty ordinary fashion) there seemed to be no emotion in the crowd (I understand that though, it's not like I'm going to applaud after seeing a movie at the theater because who am I applauding? The projectionist?). The fact that they separated the crowd from the players was one of worst (if not the worst) decisions made in starcraft history. And the fact that game 3 ended the way it did, I swear, Murphy's Law had a big impact on this final. To separate the crowd from the players and keep the crowd in a room smaller than my elementary school's gymnasium for the biggest final of all time, that's just a kick in everyone's face. When Jaedong won at the end, I felt more energy at the end of a regular season PL game between Samsung and ACE than I did last night. | ||
Aesop
Hungary11243 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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KwarK
United States41976 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:59 catabowl wrote: I just say: Game 2. JaeDong had more bases, more gas, and Flash still won. Similiar situation in game 3 (before blackout), JD might have had more resources but the PAST GAME proves just because you are ahead in resources/bases does not always mean you win. And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base. Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time. No. When JD had advantage in game 2 Flash had a lot of resources, income, units etc. Flash had options. When you have options you can turn a game around. You can get back into it with fantastic play. If a player still had options I wouldn't support a freewin, even if they were at a disadvantage. A lot of the posters here just don't understand the magnitude of JDs advantage. Flash didn't have options. He had one control group of marines against 5 gas ultralisks. His vessels had no energy and he had nothing else that can hurt ultras. No tanks. No mines. No firebats. Flash couldn't attack because he couldn't spare any units from his min only because he didn't have enough units to even hold it. Any attack would be trading one base for one and when you only have one mining base you can't do that. Flash could only defend and JD had 1 almost finished which would be 6 gas. The game was over. Flash hadn't gged yet but it was over. Flash had 0 options. All Flash could do was camp and you can't camp a base site with 3 open entrances with pure marine and medic against 6 gas ultralisks. | ||
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bmml
United Kingdom962 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:51 ZeeTemplar wrote: Everyone is speculating what could of been. Regardless there should have been a Re-game. The MSL is ruined for the fans, players, and staff and over all in general. The results of game 3 made everyone look bad. I didn't even have to watch game 4 to know that JD would win. Flashes heart wasn't in the game after that debacle and many peoples felt the same way. It will take time(I don't know how much or if it ever will) to accept Jaedong as the winner, but he will never be the clear winner. Personally, I think this is a blow to the starcraft community. The desire to watch starcraft for myself has been severely weakened. After following this thread all day this is probably the post which conveys my feelings the best. I'm so disenchanted,  . | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:06 Last Romantic wrote: It has ALWAYS been regame. Otherwise YellOw would have an OSL title. Wrong. They regamed game 1. Yellow had the advantage before a disconnect. He won the re-game. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
They cant even secure a steady supply of energy? | ||
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Gorgy
Chile65 Posts
"best final EVER" and stuff... this is the NATE MSL. | ||
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IamAnton
Canada335 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2921 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:59 catabowl wrote: I just say: Game 2. JaeDong had more bases, more gas, and Flash still won. Similiar situation in game 3 (before blackout), JD might have had more resources but the PAST GAME proves just because you are ahead in resources/bases does not always mean you win. And lets be clear, Flash had expanded to his mineral only (and with a M&M vessel build, only need 2 gas) and still was mining in his natural where JD was mining from 3 bases and was trying to defend his bot base. Now we will never know who actually would have won... but just to give out a win b/c one person had more money is wrong. Now if JD had a 50+ food count advantage, that's one thing but just because someone appears to have more resources does not mean they win all the time. This has been over analyzed already but: Game 3 was totally different from Game 2. In game 2 there had been no big collisions of any army or whatsoever & JD went a different strategy, wasted his whole advantage by wasting his muta/guardians to pretty much nothing. In game 3 JD had had 5-2 ultra/ling with swarm vs m&m with very few vessels with no energy left. Flash his main was mined out empty, Flash his natural was depleting (could see mineral blocks were disappearing as he was mining there) & he had a CC flying towards his mineral only. I don't know what you'd want Flash to do. Secure the new mineral only exp with no map control and have JD's fully graded ultra/ling/swarm/scourge rape him? (seemed he was going to do that as he pulled his army back up). Keep on wasting his valuable minerals into JD's base where he has 2 defilers ready, ultra/ling and some scourge? Run out to try to kill some of JD's other bases leaving his own base open for destruction and making it even easier for JD to counter a small m&m force? It's true, the game wasn't over, but it was. In this case no decision would be a right one.. But ffs, for all people thinking Flash still had good odds on making a come back, what the hell did you want him to do from that point? | ||
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poboxy
Canada48 Posts
And as I said elsewhere you don't try new things in a final. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7751 Posts
If JD was really the better player he would win the series regardless, if Flash was the better player he would win the series regardless. Instead they decided to fuck over one player going into the deciding game 4 instead of letting the rematch occur that JD could recover from even if he lost. Calling a game in the final is so dumb. I really doubt as many people would be in support of calling the game if the series was tied 2-2 on the same map because then it's 100% apparent that it's definitely not ok, but because it wasn't a deciding game people let it slide when really it was just as crucial. Talking about fairness to JD is also not clear cut. Giving him the win destroyed the glory of his NATE MSL win and put a big shadow of doubt over who was the better player. How is that fair? If they had rematched and Flash won the series it wouldn't have been 1/3rd of the big deal that it obviously was giving away the match. You don't give away matches in the most anticipated close series ever and you definitely don't do it when all you have is a VOD that doesn't include min/gas count, supply, what was being built, etc. For all we know Flash could have had a bunch of rines at his nat and 2 dropships building. If the camera hovered over that kind of scene then you definitely couldn't call the game, but because we have no idea what was really going on people just circle a bunch of units on their screen and feel like that logically proves the game was set and that giving the match away was A ok. You can't call the game when you have a vague idea about what's going on and are just making assumptions on what either player might have had. Especially when in past situations there were regames in these spots and especially when it's the MSL finals. All Kespa had to judge was this stupid VOD just like us and yet they make the choice in 1 min after the game? Overall I feel giving the game away was definitely less fair than a replay and you can tell that was the case based off everyone's reaction to the incident, both in Korea at MBC and on TL. They could have let the series play out or they could butcher it and they chose to butcher it. EDIT: On January 24 2010 05:06 Last Romantic wrote: It has ALWAYS been regame. Otherwise YellOw would have an OSL title. | ||
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Cyrox
Sweden147 Posts
Ret and Ahzz has covered all the points in favor of Jaedong and the 3hat pool build was dangerous to repeat. Anyone who disagree are | ||
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KwarK
United States41976 Posts
This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units. | ||
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Regizer
United States5 Posts
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KwarK
United States41976 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:31 Regizer wrote: I really don't see how JD had game 3, all Flash had to do was expand 1 more time and they would have equal bases. And from what it looked like on mini map, Flash had a larger army. All JD could do is delay with defilers while Flash could safely expand. So just because JD had 1 more base running at the time doesn't mean he would have won. How would Kespa rule the game if blackout happened after Flash took out top right expo and was marching towards Jaedongs min only? I think most of us thought Flash was ahead at that point. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 Flash couldn't hold the expansion he had, let alone expand again. Flash didn't have a larger army. JD was delaying with defilers against the final energy of Flash's burning out main and nat. Those huge mnm armies were the result of Flash's 2 base allin. That 2 base allin failed and Flash's main and nat mined out. There were no more massive mnm armies coming. Flash was exhausted. Kespa would have probably given a regame at the point in your example because JD still had a lot of options to turn the game back around. Flash had 0 options to turn it around. He couldn't just expand one more time because he'd lost map control in the battle at 7. | ||
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ZeeTemplar
United States557 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units. It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over. | ||
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KwarK
United States41976 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:34 ZeeTemplar wrote: It is speculation. There is no replay and a VOD is hardly enough evidence. In fact a D+ zerg wouldn't stand a chance against Flash at any point in that game. To make that remark is just sad and ludicrous. The game isn't over until it is over and clearly it wasn't over. I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about. Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier. The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you. | ||
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