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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:08 Tien wrote: Wrong. They regamed game 1. Yellow had the advantage before a disconnect. He won the re-game. Right? He used his game 5 strategy for the regame, meaning that he was fucked when it went to final set. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
Discussion about the rule (although seeing now that by judges decision they mean they can decide to rm or name a victor I think it's fine), and most importantly venting about, well, Flash's comp's lack of venting, should be the real topic. It's like saying 2pac is still alive at this point. | ||
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CommanderFluffy
Taiwan1059 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7805 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:28 KwarK wrote: Vasoline, find me a single decent player who actually understands TvZ who didn't think it was over and I'll consider your opinion slightly informed. But every player who knows what they're talking about (Chill included, look back a few pages) has said that upon analysing the vod, it was over. This isn't speculation. It's fact. A D+ zerg could have cleaned Flash up from there. What was Flash going to put in these dropships you give him? He didn't have the units. I'm just arguing that you don't really know that and are just assuming it based off a VOD that shows very little of what's going on. I'm not giving him the dropships, I'm just pointing out that hypothetically he could have them 80% queued up and you would never know, yet you and many others act like you have access to the replay file of this game and that it's a legitimate ruling. Say JD needed a minute to create his full control group of ultras and that Flash had 11 marines at his rally point with some medics and two dropships popping out of his starports in less than a few seconds as the power cut. Then you definitely would have to argue that a drop in the main would be totally distracting for JD and hard to deal with as at the moment of the power outage it appeared that his macro from his new bases was just barely starting to kick in. Flash couldn't have broken 7 but maybe along with his newly made MnM group he could elevator his remaining troops into the main of JD and distract him long enough to lift his main CC to the 12 o clock base and get some kind of map control going. Maybe he could have destroyed tech buildings, who knows. And you will argue that it's unlikely, or that even if there was a drop that JD would ignore it and A move into Flash's min only, but the point is we don't really know and to act like it was done deal without having a replay is accepting ignorance in my opinion. Because no one really knows what was going on, making a call on it so controversial when compared to past rulings and in a final is just plain wrong. You can ignore the "what if" if it makes you feel better, but short of Kespa asking the players what they had and how they felt about their chances in the game after watching themselves in the VOD (and both players being honest) they can't really make that ruling just looking at the VOD for a minute and 30 seconds. Additionally, earlier in this thread someone asked how this situation would play out if something similar occured in the TSL, and an answer was given that many interpreted to show Kespa's choice was legit, but really a situation like this would never come up in TSL because there would always be a replay to watch to clarify what was going on. I seriously doubt the mods on this site would call a TSL based off of a VOD and you can see that reflected in almost every mod's opinion about the rematch... which on the whole seems to be that it wasn't legit. Surely you can see that many feel its unfair to give a win without complete information that a replay file would grant | ||
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gjg.instinct
144 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:58 Mauzel wrote: First, JD had no swarm Second, JD threw away his mutalisks by turning them into gaurdians and subsequently trading them for 2 missile turrets and some m&m.... I think it's been concluded that it was more than slightly tilted. Also, it says MORE in pro gaming. The arguments about precedence is somewhat weak. There is no such thing as a "good time" to do something that will always result in someone being screwed. (I know this is kinda overexagerating but...) It's not like it was a "good time" to abolish segregation in schools. It simply needed to be done. It was fair. Looking at game 3, I really could not think of anything flash could do to come back. So you can "Monday morning quarter back Jaedong "not having swarm and "throwing units away," as a reason for him loosing the second game, but what would you say if someone said "Flash gave up economic strat for 2 rax and Jaedong happened to pool first before scouting," or, "Kespa / MBC gave the second half of the game to Jaedong because of his economy". I don't understand how you can excuse his losses on swarm / throwing units but then acknowledge wins based on MBC / Kespa rulings or even coincidental build orders. JD did have swarm and did have ultras and Flash was still pressuring him for minutes before the power outage. That I agree that Jae dong was ahead is irrelevant; to give him the game was ridiculous. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding "precedence" and the example of segregation you used. Also, in reading your post, it looks like you're talking about game two. In game three (the contraversial one, JD had swarm/ultra. | ||
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Regizer
United States5 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:33 KwarK wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 Flash couldn't hold the expansion he had, let alone expand again. Flash didn't have a larger army. JD was delaying with defilers against the final energy of Flash's burning out main and nat. Those huge mnm armies were the result of Flash's 2 base allin. That 2 base allin failed and Flash's main and nat mined out. There were no more massive mnm armies coming. Flash was exhausted. Kespa would have probably given a regame at the point in your example because JD still had a lot of options to turn the game back around. Flash had 0 options to turn it around. He couldn't just expand one more time because he'd lost map control in the battle at 7. From what I saw at the end, JD cleared up all marines at 7 but medics survived and Flash brought reinforcements to save those medics. At that point JD had maybe 3 ultras(some with low health) 2 defilers and few lings and scourage. Flash still had a decent clump of medic/marines which he retreated with. Hm I guess now that I think about it JD would be able to macro up a lot faster but maybe by then Flash would have a decent force too and had his new expo on the way(for all we know Flash could have been building a CC in his base already). I guess it would come down to whether Flash would be able to hold against JDs counter attack. Also there's no knowing whether JD would be able to defend his new expo at top right. I do agree that JD had an advantage but it wasn't clear how the rest of the game would turn out. | ||
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yarders
United Kingdom194 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:49 Probe. wrote: No the reasoning was that Jaedong was the clear winner in set 3. Flash had 0 chance of coming back from that. To restart the game would bo 100x more unfair to Jaedong because he was ahead and his build was revealed. Yes it sucks that the game had to end early, but let's be honest Jaedong was going to win it soon enough. We shouldn't be mad at KESPA, we should be mad at the fucking piece of shit MBC for shitting up the finals with the crappy studio. The fact a map is balanced in favour of one race (in your opinion) is no basis for making a decision on the result of a match. That is the chosen map for the series whether you like it or not. Are you suggesting that if power outage had happend and Flash had been winning the game then it should have been replayed because of the map. Stop clutching at straws and except that the wrong decision was made. Both Flash and Jaedongs builds have been revealed. You cannot argue that Jaedongs lead was decisive. Flash and other players have come back from far far worse positions many times in the past. People forget that 3 was severly damaged. I think he may have been heading there rather than retreating. This isn't fair on Jaedong either, by not replaying the game its ruined his victory. YES we absolutly should be mad at Kespa 1) For having inadequate rules and protocol 2) For letting this drag out for over an hour ruining the next couple of games. Bad decisions happen in many sports but coaches, players and parents do not argue for hours after the event whilst it is still ongoing. 3) For making a the wrong decision. As it has already been said you do not just ajudicate wins in the MSL finals. | ||
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ZeeTemplar
United States557 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:40 KwarK wrote: I don't know how else to put this so I'll put it simply like this. You don't know what you're talking about. Flash was mining about 11 mineral crystals which was about to go down to 6. Assuming JD was really badly saturated, he would be mining only 20 or so. But that's okay because zerg is a gas heavy race and the vod does show he is mining 5 gas. The vod also shows that Flash concludes he can't break 7 and backs his army off. The vod also shows Flash's sci vessels have no energy. The vod also shows Flash's natural crystals disappearing rapidly. The vod also shows JD's 5th base going up at 1. Flash could not attack. He knew this. He backed off to camp his mineral only. You may not know this but I suspect that it's because you're bad at Starcraft. But Flash did know this and he agrees with me, he could not attack. Pure mnm cannot defeat ultralisks. FACT. You can't say it's speculation because it's not. You need something heavier. The only possible explanation for your ignorance on this matter is that you just have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect this is because you're bad at Starcraft. Please find someone good at Starcraft who agrees with you. Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir! I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
 Nazguls post in the news pretty much sums it up. Flash was at 3-3 when he disced though. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1599 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:50 NotJack wrote: People are still debating that Flash had a chance? Especially with Kwark and Nazgul making the strong argument that much stronger, by now you're embarrassing yourself thinking otherwise. You can't just say "he's Flash so he has a chance against 5 gas fully tech'd zerg with no tanks or vessels". Discussion about the rule (although seeing now that by judges decision they mean they can decide to rm or name a victor I think it's fine), and most importantly venting about, well, Flash's comp's lack of venting, should be the real topic. It's like saying 2pac is still alive at this point. One game to prove JD can lose with overwhelming base count. Jaedong vs Fantasy on Outsider where the advantage for JD was MUCH larger than game 3. You're right tanks would be a key, but I'm pretty sure flash would still have plenty of gas to pump tanks and SVs from 2 ports and 2 facts while making MnM. If you say NO DOUBT JD wins the ruling is still BS because of the known outcome after that. Either you say JD wins and flash is so struck by the loss he can't concentrate. Or flash responds with a cheese for two obvious reasons 1.) He remembers JD's last game and thinks he can cheese a passive economic build like that or 2.) He feels like a game was stolen from him, so he wants to steal one back. That was the OBVIOUS result which is why JD pooled earlier than the previous game. As far as the rule is concerned there should be a SET advantage by the winner 5x the army size and +3 bases (there is no real place you can put it because of terran/protoss worker count), but it is something to think about it. IMO it was not a clear enough game to call it. MnM is cheap, so even if flash went to 1 base he could've easily expanded, or went all in we have no clue now because somehow they can't keep the freaking power on in an offline game LMFAO. Could easily power by several sources. Oh well too late. | ||
KwarK
United States42966 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:07 ZeeTemplar wrote: Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir! I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over. It's not just me who thinks it was 99% over. You're in a tiny minority populated by bad players. | ||
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hacpee
United States752 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:07 ZeeTemplar wrote: Yes, clearly because you're at B+ level and me being a casual C+ player gives you so much more credit than I. My hat is off to you sir! I just watched it again and seen he had re taken both 7 oclock gases. That doesn't mean he was going to win the game and to make that assumption means you are as bit of ignorant as I and that you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of evidence and a near worthless VOD that doesn't show everything. Should of lead to the result of a re-game and to give him a free game because of these assumptions is ridiculous. Which leads back to the game was not over. You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage. | ||
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Achromic
773 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:53 CommanderFluffy wrote: Conspiracy theory: Power outage on purpose to milk the rivalry franchise between two of the greatest BW players of all time. +1 | ||
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MarF
Canada156 Posts
Make a re-game... but let jaedong (or the player in his position) choose what map to play on out of the map pool... That way he could still possibly retain his advantage and it doesn't completely screw flash out of a chance to win The map imbalance should be taken more into consideration than you think because it affects jaedongs decision to possibly have agreed to a regame. Like if it was me personally, if i felt the game was still close and flash may have had a chance but inorder to regame it would have to be on this shitty map that i felt i had to use a risky strat to have any chance to win on, i'd say no for sure! Either way, correct decision by refs imo, shitty situation that never should have happened however... but nothing left to do about it | ||
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adamisuber
Canada35 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:13 KwarK wrote: Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over". Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it. That's not the point, starcraft at that level is all decision making and control, while JD was definitely ahead, Flash has fought his way out of more dire situations before. To remove the chance to lose or win in the GRAND finals, and have that choice given to you based on SUPPLY count (which was one of Kespas primary reasons) is completely absurd. They made a travesty of the finals, made it seem like they did nothing wrong and further ruined by deciding the victor. This must have completely thrown flash off his game, this is by far the worst finals I have ever witnessed in starcraft history. I know I'm just QQing now but Goddamn I was looking forward to this. I /facepalmed so hard. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
well, gratz to jaedong anyway, he showed a fantastic series and judging by what they showed prior to the power outage, he absolutely deserves the title. | ||
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adamisuber
Canada35 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:16 hacpee wrote: You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage. The difference seems to lie solely in who you are a fan of it seems. | ||
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ZeeTemplar
United States557 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:16 hacpee wrote: You ignore the fact that RET said Jaedong had the clear advantage. Why would I listen to Ret? He cant even play a decent zvz. | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
Edit: And I see ZeeTemplar getting a ban for previous comment. | ||
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KwarK
United States42966 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:36 love1another wrote: Somebody should make a savegame in BW that attempts to reconstruct the game based on VOD, and presumed mineral-depletion/worker saturation for each player. Then people should play it out and there would be very little question as to who was going to win. Already on it. | ||
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