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On January 07 2016 21:28 nooniansoong wrote:
Kmart I made a bad assumption that first game player couldn't make that megacase. I guess I wasn't accounting for the coach effect?
Nm yeah.. I stopped looking at his posts critically because of two reasons. I assumed that only town had his type of analytical content. Although now that I think back it was more like high caliber nitpicking. Also his last scumgame sucked and His play this game was an astonomical jump, which made him being scum less likely in my mind.
reee etc.
I actually made the great wall by myself. The content of posts was all written by me, DYH was giving tips on things like when to be active and following up posts.
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To be fair I am pretty nitpicky as town. Ironically there is a bunch of things I said in this game that I would have done as town.
Also I did think that Fidei would get caught out on vote analysis for the tail vote on scott.
And Onegu did push Fidei and GB but since others voted GB, he voted GB over Fidei.
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I also don't think GigyaS should be hard on himself either. I think his play was greatly affected by lack of time. I think for him he should have re-priortised and gone into stream of consciousness mode on his reads, but I think Kita touched on that already.
He DID ask some good questions, the day 2 voting decision to me was a good one.
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Alex ignored my PM congratulating him on our victory 
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On January 08 2016 02:52 NocturneMage wrote:
Also I did think that Fidei would get caught out on vote analysis for the tail vote on scott.
And Onegu did push Fidei and GB but since others voted GB, he voted GB over Fidei.
idk.. From what i know he voted at the last minute(s) of the day phase(?) when the vote was already 5-3 or something. In other words, purely from the vote's perspective the vote doesn't matter at all regardless of his alignment, so imo you can't tell anything about it. Sure you could probably go into his reasoning for changing his vote but i guess that could be explained with some "i came back and i saw i was the counter-wagon so as i know i am town ofc i am gonna vote for my counter-wagon...." stuff that is in itself not scummy.
Yeah but if your filter consists of "pushing Fidei" with only saying "he scumslipped" over and over again that doesn't really qualify as pushing someone.... It is just mindlessly yelling something people are never gonna believe.
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On January 07 2016 23:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 23:44 disformation wrote:@GiygaS: Don't be too hard on yourself. You had the right ideas in some cases and where like the only one really realizing that there was something really bad going on. But as I said, next game I want to see you having a bit more impact on the game and doing a bit more work, especially when you realize that something is off.  I wish you had tried to use your coaching QT a bit more though, but I can also understand if you where trying to learn the game on your own. Yeah you tried and it wasn't that bad tbh. If not anything else at least you didn't get mislynched and well... none of the townies had really good reads based on the outcome of the game so... Also idk... have you played mafia elsewhere in the meantime? I remember you in some TL Mafia [insert number here] game ~2-3yrs ago.
Over 3 years now. I've only played a few rl games, going to try and boost my activity next game.
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On January 08 2016 06:26 GiygaS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 23:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 07 2016 23:44 disformation wrote:@GiygaS: Don't be too hard on yourself. You had the right ideas in some cases and where like the only one really realizing that there was something really bad going on. But as I said, next game I want to see you having a bit more impact on the game and doing a bit more work, especially when you realize that something is off. I wish you had tried to use your coaching QT a bit more though, but I can also understand if you where trying to learn the game on your own. Yeah you tried and it wasn't that bad tbh. If not anything else at least you didn't get mislynched and well... none of the townies had really good reads based on the outcome of the game so... Also idk... have you played mafia elsewhere in the meantime? I remember you in some TL Mafia [insert number here] game ~2-3yrs ago. Over 3 years now. I've only played a few rl games, going to try and boost my activity next game.
If you are stressed for time, keeping notes can also help. Like note down the 3 first things that come into mind for each player and give them a rating. If you are stuck you can then look at their filters and compare to those notes.
You could also try something similar to what geript did for his day 1 analysis, as in giving + and - points for points and making note of that somewhere.
I will likely try and experiment with such things in my next games, since my current play style forces me to put tons of time into a game, since I have to constantly reread filters and stuff.
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Eh I prefer being wrong but towny in my reads.
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I've never cohosted or hosted a game before but if you're willing to teach me, host, I'd give it a shot.
Artanis or kita, whoever hosts next, give me a shout.
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May make a chrome extension this weekend to annotate posts like geript did for personal notes actually. Would anyone else be interested?
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On January 07 2016 23:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 23:44 disformation wrote:@GiygaS: Don't be too hard on yourself. You had the right ideas in some cases and where like the only one really realizing that there was something really bad going on. But as I said, next game I want to see you having a bit more impact on the game and doing a bit more work, especially when you realize that something is off. I wish you had tried to use your coaching QT a bit more though, but I can also understand if you where trying to learn the game on your own. Yeah you tried and it wasn't that bad tbh. If not anything else at least you didn't get mislynched and well... none of the townies had really good reads based on the outcome of the game so... Also idk... have you played mafia elsewhere in the meantime? I remember you in some TL Mafia [insert number here] game ~2-3yrs ago.
NAH
I had Kmatt on day1 and ive correctly suspected NM
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On January 08 2016 07:51 GiygaS wrote:
May make a chrome extension this weekend to annotate posts like geript did for personal notes actually. Would anyone else be interested?
Very interested
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Finally getting around catching up.
This post made me super hard (just after Shining cop flip):
On January 05 2016 14:11 Kmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 12:13 GlowingBear wrote:On January 05 2016 07:52 Kmatt wrote:
You know I had my suspicions that Cow/Shining was blue but damn detective? We really needed that for the last days.
I was pretty skeptical about his sudden post and GiygaS' vote switch when GB was on the table but if Shining really was a blue, then the only scenario where GiygaS fits in as scum would be if they had planned to vote switch two off of GB (or one from another wagon to put it at 4-5) at the last minute and Shining did half the work for them. I'm willing to put away that crackpot theory for the time being, which leaves us with...
Shapelog/FecalFeast: Shape was dubious at best before, but a lot of my grievances with him was his sudden disappearance. Now that we know about the surgery and FF's activity so far I'll peg him as town.
GiygaS: While that voteswitch was sketchy, Shining did have a point, and he clearly wasn't trying to trick anyone. Outside of my crackpot theory I've not a lot of reason reason to suspect him. Slight town.
NocturneMage: My safest townread second only to Cow/Shining. I'll give his filter the once-over since there's been a lot out of him to be sure, but so far I have no complaints against him. Town.
Fidei: I don't like how inactive he's been, but that's been the case for three townies so far (Scott, Onegu, and TheCow were all afk early on and they've all flipped town). However, if he doesn't come in with some solid scumreads today I'm gonna have a problem here. Slight scum.
GlowingBear: I don't really buy or even get that explanation for the Scott vote and there's been a lot of anti-town posting
coming from him. Especially considering how few players are left, I can't really see a scenario where he's not scum. Unless someone can show me solid evidence that there's a better shot in someone else I'm keeping my vote right here.
Scum.
I have to run out so I can't finish my bit on mderg and kush. Why did you think the cow was blue? The way he was questioning me when I had a wagon going even though I was already voted on led me to believe that he was considering Vig shotting me. Obviously we know that's not the case, but it could have been that he scanned me night one. That would explain why he didn't bother questioning me much after that initial quizzing.
Fucking well played it was perfect.
First posting you thought TheCow was blue but not giving the explanation before being asked is super townie.
Second this is a SUPER GOOD LOOKING THEORY about how you could be the green check.
Fucking fucking fucking good post.
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On January 08 2016 07:51 GiygaS wrote:
May make a chrome extension this weekend to annotate posts like geript did for personal notes actually. Would anyone else be interested?
what does this mean? i am interested.
On January 08 2016 07:52 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 23:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 07 2016 23:44 disformation wrote:@GiygaS: Don't be too hard on yourself. You had the right ideas in some cases and where like the only one really realizing that there was something really bad going on. But as I said, next game I want to see you having a bit more impact on the game and doing a bit more work, especially when you realize that something is off. I wish you had tried to use your coaching QT a bit more though, but I can also understand if you where trying to learn the game on your own. Yeah you tried and it wasn't that bad tbh. If not anything else at least you didn't get mislynched and well... none of the townies had really good reads based on the outcome of the game so... Also idk... have you played mafia elsewhere in the meantime? I remember you in some TL Mafia [insert number here] game ~2-3yrs ago. NAH I had Kmatt on day1 and ive correctly suspected NM
true. it doesn't matter much though if everyone wants to kil lyou with fire and you get lynched.
and you voted for scott in the end...
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On January 07 2016 21:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 21:28 nooniansoong wrote:On January 07 2016 14:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:I would like to know the following though: scott31337 (6): Irishbound, NocturneMage, mderg, GiygaS, GlowingBear, Fidei86
Fidei86 (3): Onegu, nooniansoong, scott31337
nooniansoong (1): Shapelog
GlowingBear (1): Kmatt This is the final votecount from D1. Onegu and kush (mainly, and also the townies on scott), why did you decide that Fidei is not mafia on D2? There was never any serious push on anyone except for Glowingbear/Onegu on D2, what suddenly changed? Like you guys had at least a semi-serious counterwagon for the D1 lynch and imo Fidei didn't really do anything particularly townie during the night. (when someone has 2 scumreads in a game where there is 3 mafia, it is extremely unlike they have, at the same time five null reads -- unless they are scum) His defense made me realize I didn't have a good case on him. But I did end up scumreading him just because his last case was full of misrepresentation. Kmart I made a bad assumption that first game player couldn't make that megacase. I guess I wasn't accounting for the coach effect? Nm yeah.. I stopped looking at his posts critically because of two reasons. I assumed that only town had his type of analytical content. Although now that I think back it was more like high caliber nitpicking. Also his last scumgame sucked and His play this game was an astonomical jump, which made him being scum less likely in my mind. So town was forced to make bad cases on each other, which made town look more scummy. Gbs reasoning for scumreading Mderg and gigyas was a lack of strong scumreads, but they didn't have scum reads because scum was playing really well. When a game seems hard like this one did, I think you need to recalibrate and almost reverse what to expect from town and scum. Town will look bad because they can't figure stuff out, and scum will look good because hard games are an indication that scum is playing well. As for that last part, that's not true. Gb had 2 scum reads. Mderg had 0.. The last part i meant the post Fidei made at the end of D1. There were two things that stood out: 1) He had 2 scumreads + Onegu as policy lynch. In a game where there is 3 mafia, that's it (or the conclusions should likely be that), but instead of making the conclusions he had 5 other players he NULLREAD!!! That should have rang some alarm bells in my opinion. 2) Another thing that stood out was his read on mderg (if i remember correctly). In his post he stated reasons for mderg being town (his scumreading GB and you) -- but the conclusion was "mderg is null because he is only pushing his top 2 scumreads"..... ???? Like, that is something where Fidei in my opinion makes two different conclusions based on same thing (town points for having two scumreads -- scum points for pushing them). + Show Spoiler +Mderg - I like his pressuring on Noon/Kush as well regarding D1. Someone said in the thread earlier that they lynch scum 60% of games D1. I don't think it's that high for me, but mderg is right that a successful d1 lynch for town reaaaaally fucks scum. He has a couple of short posts that give interesting insight (eg #376), but generally he seems pretty focussed on pushing his kush / GB association without looking wider than that. basically what i am talking about here is this; The green part is a "towntell" -- it's obvious from Fidei's wording. The non-colored part is 100% null, noone can consider that alignment indicative. So it only means Fidei HAS to think the red part is scummy (that cancels the townread he otherwise should have). And it makes no sense given that it is EXACTLY the same thing he gives townpoints to mderg. I wouldn't fault anyone for not scumreading NM, tbh he looked one of the most townie players in the game, at least for me. Kmatt was like... umm.. i don't remember much he posted, but i think he could have been caught aswell. I was just wondering why people let go of the scumread on Fidei (namely the people who wanted to lynch him on D1). Hell Onegu's whole filter is yelling "Fidei scumslipped" and while i think it's kind of a ridiculous to assume he in fact did (regardless of it is true or not -- you are never gonna convince anyone with that kinda case), it's even more ridiculous that he completely stopped pushing Fidei after D1 -- i would have probably lynched Onegu myself after that.
Mm about fidei, I don't agree with number 1. What fidei did here was kinda copy that post from Dark Tournament Mafia where he was town, I think he was trying to respect his town meta.
Number 2 is good.
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On January 08 2016 18:30 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 21:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 07 2016 21:28 nooniansoong wrote:On January 07 2016 14:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:I would like to know the following though: scott31337 (6): Irishbound, NocturneMage, mderg, GiygaS, GlowingBear, Fidei86
Fidei86 (3): Onegu, nooniansoong, scott31337
nooniansoong (1): Shapelog
GlowingBear (1): Kmatt This is the final votecount from D1. Onegu and kush (mainly, and also the townies on scott), why did you decide that Fidei is not mafia on D2? There was never any serious push on anyone except for Glowingbear/Onegu on D2, what suddenly changed? Like you guys had at least a semi-serious counterwagon for the D1 lynch and imo Fidei didn't really do anything particularly townie during the night. (when someone has 2 scumreads in a game where there is 3 mafia, it is extremely unlike they have, at the same time five null reads -- unless they are scum) His defense made me realize I didn't have a good case on him. But I did end up scumreading him just because his last case was full of misrepresentation. Kmart I made a bad assumption that first game player couldn't make that megacase. I guess I wasn't accounting for the coach effect? Nm yeah.. I stopped looking at his posts critically because of two reasons. I assumed that only town had his type of analytical content. Although now that I think back it was more like high caliber nitpicking. Also his last scumgame sucked and His play this game was an astonomical jump, which made him being scum less likely in my mind. So town was forced to make bad cases on each other, which made town look more scummy. Gbs reasoning for scumreading Mderg and gigyas was a lack of strong scumreads, but they didn't have scum reads because scum was playing really well. When a game seems hard like this one did, I think you need to recalibrate and almost reverse what to expect from town and scum. Town will look bad because they can't figure stuff out, and scum will look good because hard games are an indication that scum is playing well. As for that last part, that's not true. Gb had 2 scum reads. Mderg had 0.. The last part i meant the post Fidei made at the end of D1. There were two things that stood out: 1) He had 2 scumreads + Onegu as policy lynch. In a game where there is 3 mafia, that's it (or the conclusions should likely be that), but instead of making the conclusions he had 5 other players he NULLREAD!!! That should have rang some alarm bells in my opinion. 2) Another thing that stood out was his read on mderg (if i remember correctly). In his post he stated reasons for mderg being town (his scumreading GB and you) -- but the conclusion was "mderg is null because he is only pushing his top 2 scumreads"..... ???? Like, that is something where Fidei in my opinion makes two different conclusions based on same thing (town points for having two scumreads -- scum points for pushing them). + Show Spoiler +Mderg - I like his pressuring on Noon/Kush as well regarding D1. Someone said in the thread earlier that they lynch scum 60% of games D1. I don't think it's that high for me, but mderg is right that a successful d1 lynch for town reaaaaally fucks scum. He has a couple of short posts that give interesting insight (eg #376), but generally he seems pretty focussed on pushing his kush / GB association without looking wider than that. basically what i am talking about here is this; The green part is a "towntell" -- it's obvious from Fidei's wording. The non-colored part is 100% null, noone can consider that alignment indicative. So it only means Fidei HAS to think the red part is scummy (that cancels the townread he otherwise should have). And it makes no sense given that it is EXACTLY the same thing he gives townpoints to mderg. I wouldn't fault anyone for not scumreading NM, tbh he looked one of the most townie players in the game, at least for me. Kmatt was like... umm.. i don't remember much he posted, but i think he could have been caught aswell. I was just wondering why people let go of the scumread on Fidei (namely the people who wanted to lynch him on D1). Hell Onegu's whole filter is yelling "Fidei scumslipped" and while i think it's kind of a ridiculous to assume he in fact did (regardless of it is true or not -- you are never gonna convince anyone with that kinda case), it's even more ridiculous that he completely stopped pushing Fidei after D1 -- i would have probably lynched Onegu myself after that. Mm about fidei, I don't agree with number 1. What fidei did here was kinda copy that post from Dark Tournament Mafia where he was town, I think he was trying to respect his town meta. Number 2 is good.
Maybe you are right. Well based on "meta" you are right. But those kinda posts should not be made, ever, as town (or as mafia). If you are town -- who cares who your null reads are? If you are mafia -- why possibly give away information that can hurt you (see point 2).
Anyways i think these kinda posts are always at least worth of being noticed and questioned, as they don't make much sense logically. As it is a fact if you have two (or three) scumreads you should basically think other people (at least almost all) are town. At best, as town, this results into you being not a threat to mafia since it shows you are actually very unsure of your reads --> you are easily discredited.
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On January 08 2016 18:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 18:30 Rels wrote:On January 07 2016 21:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 07 2016 21:28 nooniansoong wrote:On January 07 2016 14:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:I would like to know the following though: scott31337 (6): Irishbound, NocturneMage, mderg, GiygaS, GlowingBear, Fidei86
Fidei86 (3): Onegu, nooniansoong, scott31337
nooniansoong (1): Shapelog
GlowingBear (1): Kmatt This is the final votecount from D1. Onegu and kush (mainly, and also the townies on scott), why did you decide that Fidei is not mafia on D2? There was never any serious push on anyone except for Glowingbear/Onegu on D2, what suddenly changed? Like you guys had at least a semi-serious counterwagon for the D1 lynch and imo Fidei didn't really do anything particularly townie during the night. (when someone has 2 scumreads in a game where there is 3 mafia, it is extremely unlike they have, at the same time five null reads -- unless they are scum) His defense made me realize I didn't have a good case on him. But I did end up scumreading him just because his last case was full of misrepresentation. Kmart I made a bad assumption that first game player couldn't make that megacase. I guess I wasn't accounting for the coach effect? Nm yeah.. I stopped looking at his posts critically because of two reasons. I assumed that only town had his type of analytical content. Although now that I think back it was more like high caliber nitpicking. Also his last scumgame sucked and His play this game was an astonomical jump, which made him being scum less likely in my mind. So town was forced to make bad cases on each other, which made town look more scummy. Gbs reasoning for scumreading Mderg and gigyas was a lack of strong scumreads, but they didn't have scum reads because scum was playing really well. When a game seems hard like this one did, I think you need to recalibrate and almost reverse what to expect from town and scum. Town will look bad because they can't figure stuff out, and scum will look good because hard games are an indication that scum is playing well. As for that last part, that's not true. Gb had 2 scum reads. Mderg had 0.. The last part i meant the post Fidei made at the end of D1. There were two things that stood out: 1) He had 2 scumreads + Onegu as policy lynch. In a game where there is 3 mafia, that's it (or the conclusions should likely be that), but instead of making the conclusions he had 5 other players he NULLREAD!!! That should have rang some alarm bells in my opinion. 2) Another thing that stood out was his read on mderg (if i remember correctly). In his post he stated reasons for mderg being town (his scumreading GB and you) -- but the conclusion was "mderg is null because he is only pushing his top 2 scumreads"..... ???? Like, that is something where Fidei in my opinion makes two different conclusions based on same thing (town points for having two scumreads -- scum points for pushing them). + Show Spoiler +Mderg - I like his pressuring on Noon/Kush as well regarding D1. Someone said in the thread earlier that they lynch scum 60% of games D1. I don't think it's that high for me, but mderg is right that a successful d1 lynch for town reaaaaally fucks scum. He has a couple of short posts that give interesting insight (eg #376), but generally he seems pretty focussed on pushing his kush / GB association without looking wider than that. basically what i am talking about here is this; The green part is a "towntell" -- it's obvious from Fidei's wording. The non-colored part is 100% null, noone can consider that alignment indicative. So it only means Fidei HAS to think the red part is scummy (that cancels the townread he otherwise should have). And it makes no sense given that it is EXACTLY the same thing he gives townpoints to mderg. I wouldn't fault anyone for not scumreading NM, tbh he looked one of the most townie players in the game, at least for me. Kmatt was like... umm.. i don't remember much he posted, but i think he could have been caught aswell. I was just wondering why people let go of the scumread on Fidei (namely the people who wanted to lynch him on D1). Hell Onegu's whole filter is yelling "Fidei scumslipped" and while i think it's kind of a ridiculous to assume he in fact did (regardless of it is true or not -- you are never gonna convince anyone with that kinda case), it's even more ridiculous that he completely stopped pushing Fidei after D1 -- i would have probably lynched Onegu myself after that. Mm about fidei, I don't agree with number 1. What fidei did here was kinda copy that post from Dark Tournament Mafia where he was town, I think he was trying to respect his town meta. Number 2 is good. Maybe you are right. Well based on "meta" you are right. But those kinda posts should not be made, ever, as town (or as mafia). If you are town -- who cares who your null reads are? If you are mafia -- why possibly give away information (see point 2).
Yep - NM being in the null category when, based on what said on the explanation, he should be in the town category is a big partner indicator.
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My god NM.
You're so townie that last day.
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Like this is one very good example of why not to post everything you have in your mind (especially things you are unsure of -- or alternative scenarios). Let's entertain a scenario where Fidei is town here and makes that post. Let's say i am one of Onegu/GiygaS/kush and Fidei has actually managed to accuse all my scumteam here. I wouldn't be worried for a second here.
Hell i don't even have to attack his reads on us three, i can just simply discredit him on his null reads based on what i said above and that would be enough. People will most likely not believe him over me since i have actually a logical argument -- how can he be sure these guys are scum if other people are not town? Or are they actually scum? Is he just making shit up? I don't even have to say this straight out but this is the image people will get.
I can also attack his reasoning on the null reads (as also -- pointed out above). It makes people likely to start discussing those matters, and Fidei's alignment, as again i can shred doubt on his overall thought process.
In comparison, if Fidei had just posted the three scumreads, and maybe the townreads on "strong town", i am suddenly in a bad spot. I have to either attack reads on my scumbuddies OR shred doubt on townreads on people who are actually town. Both are bad -- as it can easily hit me back in the ass, even more than just one mafia.
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Well I finished.
fidei was easily catchable but well protected by NM.
kmatt was super good starting D2. But his D1 should have get him lynched at some point (GB's points on him were super damning - especially this one).
NM was sooooo townie, especially late game! He was catchable with association on fidei (fidei keeping NM in his null or scumreads is a big indicator) and on little things, but mostly on POE. I felt GB & mderg were obvious town D1, so with those out of the POE the game would have been different. scott & Onegu were good lynches though, so with no mislynch to afford + cop not checking anyone (and being roleblocked!!!! fucking WP) game was super hard for town.
NM, being almost sure fidei was scum, here is why I scumread you. Gotta find that post in the obs QT.
Oh HTS I think you're right on NM. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/500060-newbie-student-mafia-xviii?page=30#590As town, NM is very vocal about stuff that don't make someone mafia. Here, he is unsure to say if this "slip" is something worthwhile or not. Very different from usual. If we assume fidei and NM are scum together, that makes sense though: NM wants to say the slip is a bullshit reason to call fidei scum, but he's also saying it could make fidei scum 'cause that's how scum partners usually talks about each other. I think I'm reading the thread with bias confirming fidei + NM scum 'cause you seem so sure about it, but this jumped out to me.
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EPT
