Normal Mini Mafia LVI

On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:


Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it

On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.

Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.

My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.

It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.

Please comment on my thoughts

On June 16 2014 12:37 Snickers wrote:
Also we have to vote before 8 p.m. Eastern time right? I am somewhat confused with how it says 3:32 for my post and it says 0:00 for the starting of the game post. Is this a feature of mafia?

I know the host said something about a timezone and also said he will be using his timezone, but i think it would be nice for us players to state the U.S. time day 1 ends, since so many of us are for the U.S.

On June 16 2014 12:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:


I mean, if a guy is making a case on me (you're not, but 27nb is), why ignore all the weird shit I said after my first post? Or the fact that I like abjectly lied to the thread with intent to decieve? This is not the behavior that someone actually trying to hunt scum and thought bh was scum would exhibit after voting bh.

On June 16 2014 12:43 slOosh wrote:

Wait. So if bunnies did a "proper follow up", what would you have done? "oh it was a trap all the scummy things I did ignore that"?

On June 16 2014 12:51 Snickers wrote:


Thanks for commenting. I actually had wrote a similar thing to your first statement then quoted over it and then proceeded to say Fuck it lets do it live.

But yea I am saying I am leaning towards 27nb, especially now because her posting seems off to me. I was trying to show the pros of lynching her if for some magical reason we have no better person to lynch by night time. I was attempting to conclude that it would be horrible for town to do that. (it would be horrible to pair them and rely on one as scum, one not when both could be townies.) thanks for clearing my statement up

On June 16 2014 12:56 Chezinu wrote:
After thorough analysis, I have concluded that Chezinu does not have a weapon and therefore should not be the one to confront The Sheriff.

On June 16 2014 13:10 Release wrote:
The way in which the Kenpachi rule is explained Without a blatant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player (and the subsequent explanation), a vote due to the Kenpachi rule entails that the vote on the claimed vanilla townie be due to the claim of vt. However, 27bunnie's vote on you is completely independent of your claim of vanilla townie (if you removed you vt claim, 27bunnie would still have voted for you).

On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release

On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:

I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face.

Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so?

On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:


I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014:

"As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies."

And yet he ends this same post:

"I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ."

Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post.

On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:


You have a point here I really like.

Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here.

He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do.

But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that.

I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum.

On June 17 2014 02:49 27ninjabunnies wrote:
@Sloosh- associations are actually good. Here's why. Mafia are a team. More likely, they should be working as a team to push mislynches. Unless they completely distance themselves and try to do it on their own (which is stupid imo). So finding connections within players is good. Theories, if backed up by evidence, s good. That is just my theory.

On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town?

On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that.

On June 17 2014 03:17 27ninjabunnies wrote:

Cause I'm not bad.

Or atleast I don't think so. But then again I'm biased towards myself.

On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release

On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that.

On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic.

On June 17 2014 06:36 27ninjabunnies wrote:


YEs, I do.

I just don't like the reasoning of Artanis not wanting to comment on either YKZ or me. I find this more townie, because he is looking for scum outside of us and trying to get reads outside of us.

On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:
I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him.

On June 17 2014 18:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
So I wrote this big post about why I think slOosh is mafia because he thinks Artanis is mafia, but then as I started picking apart slOosh's reasoning I find that I'm really not so strongly feeling townie on Artanis, and that slOosh's reasoning is as bad as it was at first glance. So I removed the bit about Artanis and frankly it's not nearly as impressive. I've included it in a spoiler because I'm still tentatively scummy on slOosh, but the crux of my argument is garbage and the rest can possibly be just me misreading slOosh's intention or whatever.

Would probably vote for slOosh if he said nothing more today, but right now I'm looking elsewhere because I don't really find my case super convincing myself. I maintain that he doesn't /feel/ town to me, but concede that it's quite possible that I'm just wrong here.

+ Show Spoiler +

As for other players, as always I absolutely refuse to read BH this cycle. Chez seems to be Chez, which means he'll be alive until we lynch him regardless of his alignment. I'd like to see where this Artanis/slOosh stuff goes. I'm now kinda townreading Release now that he's proven a proclivity toward verbosity in all matters. mgerg is more guilty of rehashing than Release ever was, and in a way I find to be far more scummy. I think based on his (presumably only) D1 post that he's my favorite lynch today. I find his entire post to be wishywashy and diplomatic and scummy, and considering it may be all we get from him this cycle I'm fine with lynching him.

##Vote: mderg

On April 28 2014 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
I might like a BH lynch the most at present.

On April 28 2014 04:19 Hapahauli wrote:

Vote Count!

Palmar (3) - VisceraEyes, VayneAuthority, Odinofpergo, Ace
Caller (1) - prplhz, Ace, Sandroba, yamato77, VisceraEyes
Geript (1) - Alakaslam, Oatsmaster, BlazingHand
VisceraEyes (2) - Caller, strongandbig
prplhz (immune) (0) - Foolishness, Koshi, Blazinghand
strongandbig (6) - Foolishness, Alakaslam, Geript, Palmar, Koshi, Oatsmaster, VisceraEyes
Cephiro (1) - prplhz
Foolishness (1) - Sandroba
Oatsmaster (1) - Austinmcc
Blazinghand (1) - VisceraEyes

until lynch. 12 votes are needed to lynch.

On June 18 2014 04:58 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I still do not understand the mderg case. Can someone explain succinctly for me?

On June 18 2014 05:14 goodkarma wrote:


FYI: VE was town in the game you referenced. From what I've seen in his meta he's been more active and involved as both town and scum in prior games. So, is there some kind of meta analysis you've done that's determined he'd be more likely to behave like this as scum than as town?

On June 18 2014 05:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

YKZ: No idea, it's BH.
Leaning scum on bunnies. Not sure if I want to vote bunnies or mderg. I don't like both bunnies and ykz's reason for townreading me but bunnies seems a lot more set on it for shaky grounds. Also don't like how she keeps pushing the unflipped associations thing, saying it's because of video mafia even though she's played a decent amount of forum mafia since then. Mderg is mostly a case of adding nothing to the conversation. That he thought my case made sense but didn't comment on goodkarma's much better post is something I don't understand either. I'm actually happy that Lazer stepped up to defend him because a lynch without opposition is generally bad for town. I don't think it's likely mafia would roll over and die with such a relatively inactive town that they'll just throw away a member on D1. I could lynch either of them atm.

On June 18 2014 05:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
slOosh is that really all you're going to do to try and get your main suspect killed?

On June 17 2014 14:48 YouKnowZhou wrote:
As far as I can see, I see no reason not to lynch her, and as far as I can see, I don't see why you don't see a reason not to lynch her.

On June 18 2014 09:07 Koshi wrote:
I always lose when I replace.

On June 18 2014 09:08 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Well, that didn't go well. I think we all know who is at fault here, even if it was an honest mistake. I think it's important to remember that anyone can be wrong, and can screw up, even if they're trying to do their best, and we all make mistakes, right guys? No need to go finger-pointing here, so I'll start off with an apology. On behalf of 27nb, who can't post in the thread any more, I apologize for playing like scum and getting lynched D1.

I don't think we need to continue blaming 27nb, the sole party at fault for this mislynch, because that wouldn't be productive. Let's move forwards and do our best to win, despite the massively scummy town play from 27nb.

On June 18 2014 11:31 Snickers wrote:


look at my 2nd page filter. I explained why he should be lynched.

I feel like very few people actually read the whole thread....

and to koshi I would not worry about that now everyone is saying one thing while i was saying they were twisting my idea.

And someone mentioned vigilante killing me. first off only one person "maybe" is the vigilante. I highly doubt vigilante would go for me. No one has actually made a case for me. No one even voted for me at any moment. People have literally only wrote small paragraphs mentioning what they overall thought my alignment was.

On June 18 2014 23:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh can you maybe give me your read on mderg? He was a counterwagon yesterday and all this VE talk is pretty fucking annoying considering you never really even considered lynching mderg.

On June 18 2014 04:25 slOosh wrote:
I don't think mderg is a good lynch.

His posts are consistent, and his notice of how people are reacting to Release is something that I felt too.

On June 19 2014 05:22 VisceraEyes wrote:

This post here illustrates succinctly my thoughts on mderg's post. He made a comeback post with a half-baked excuse for why he was gone and placed a vote and said "MAYBE I'll be back" or "HOPEFULLY I'll be back" or whatever. It's textbook scum play man, fly under the radar, don't ruffle feathers, place a vote to not get modkilled and hope no one pays any attention to you. Obviously it didn't work because the post in question was fairly scummy by itself, but the way he reacted to the pressure when he got back is pretty telling imo.

Whatever happened to your Artanis read slOosh? Did you flip on him because he apparently flipped on me or something? What's going on there?

On June 19 2014 06:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'm here if anyone wants to ask me any questions before nighttime ends.

On June 19 2014 08:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I still think mderg is town, so yeah, I don't think scum was at risk of getting lynched. I don't know if they were necessarily laid back or afk during the vote though.

On June 19 2014 21:33 VisceraEyes wrote:

slOosh I think that in general your description would accurately illustrate a likely strategy mafia could/would employ based on the information we have now. I think that your observation is fair that I fit this category on reflection, and regret my harsh words to the contrary.

I also realize that my scumread of BH does NOT fall in line with this line of thinking, so I ask how you're reading BH right now. Is it simply that you've constructed this likely scenario and that BH does not fit into it? If so I ask that you consider that BH is a crazy mofo and fucks up whatever plan you think you have about what mafia /could/ or /would/ do. If not I'd like to know your full reasoning for townreading/not suspecting BH.

On June 20 2014 02:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

I think it gives extra reason to check out karma's filter though. I skimmed through his filter and saw he was after BH (until he decided to give him a day) and VE.

Haven't read VE in depth. Saw the case on mderg but I skipped it for the time being as I haven't had much time so far. I'm not sure why his read on me developed the way it did. He seems to have gone from townreading me to (sort of?) scumreading me whereas you and Lazer have gone through he opposite evolution. He seems very detached. I'm hesitant to throw him under the train tracks too quickly though, he's been a frequent mislynch.

On June 11 2014 07:30 Kurumi wrote:
Mafia Roleblocker
During the night you might roleblock a player which makes his action fail. Only roles using their power in that night will be notified of a roleblock.

On June 20 2014 03:59 Chezinu wrote:

Do this mean we are going to perform operation Eel Ears?

The Sheriff is watching. We must act in disguise in order not to be shotgunned. If we say the wrong things The Sheriff will kill us. Sorry for wasting your time, The Sheriff demands it.

On June 20 2014 18:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
slOosh, you were scumbuddies with mderg in Detention. Do you feel he's playing similarly in this game?
BH, you were the host that game. What do you recall of his play and do you see similarities?

On May 29 2014 02:58 mderg wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants cell C to go late? Right now I can´t read that at all.
Hf´s mayor campaign seemed townie but at some point I started to find it strange how he didn´t want to take responsibility for the cell order. So my read on him is kinda null.
batsnacks had some good guidelines about the cell order but it wasn´t really specific. I also didn´t agree with lynching the lowest contributing cells first. I´m slightly leaning towards town but I´m really not sure about that.
ShiaoPi is like a huge question mark for me right now.

So for me this is the last cell I´d want to go first.

On June 20 2014 18:57 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Also, not only do I recall nothing about mderg's play, I don't even remember him being mafia in detention. I stopped really having time to host that game after D2, and I recall screwing up the night actions or something and then modkilling a scum player, and then maybe not delivering mderg's roleblock? In any case, you can take a look at his filter for yourself here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?user=mderg

On June 20 2014 18:58 YouKnowZhou wrote:


Yeah, we're gonna have a problem with that then. I generally only use meta when it supports my case, and now that I'm looking at his filter in detention, it looks like the issue here (he forgot that he was townreading 27nb and then voted her for no reason) didn't happen there. I am not making a behavioral analysis on mderg, but it's not exactly a scumslip case either. It's a case based on the fact that his train of thought really does NOT make sense. In Detention Mafia he has some scumtells and some nonsensical things he says, but nothing like this. I do think he's still scum though despite that.

I attribute the change in playing style (conversational in Detention, non-conversational here) to World Cup.

On June 20 2014 18:32 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Oh man mderg when you refresh the page you're gonna be real surprised. But yeah I like super want to lynch Snickers for that post too.

On June 21 2014 01:47 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
VE, you feel like BH's case is scum on scum or how do you see it?

On June 21 2014 06:02 Lazermonkey wrote:
Please look at Koshi's filter and look ät all thé scum hunting he has done... Owait.

Vote him.

On June 21 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote:
So ... I don't know how to feel. My reads feel like the garbage

VE I'll get back to you on the Lazermonkey read. Just wallowing for a while.

On June 21 2014 06:03 Koshi wrote:

Please be more disconnected about what is happening this day.

On June 20 2014 22:56 Lazermonkey wrote:
This is also a good point brought up. Everyone that is voting mderg should explain why they vote him very very clearly and why the reason you vote him makes him scum. Explain how that action isn't likely to have come out of a newbie town player also.

On June 21 2014 08:59 Lazermonkey wrote:
...

I Mderg is probably a crappy lynch. But there are still too few voters on YKZ... w/e.

##Unvote
##Vote: YKZ

On June 18 2014 02:56 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm back, and I'm caught up. I see that people are voting mderg. I'll read the cases and weigh in. I'd also like to float the idea of an Oatsmaster lynch. I love the guy like a son, but he's lurking, son. Take a look at his filter so far:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?user=Oatsmaster

Now you might say, "YKZ, as far as I can tell, Oats has not in fact posted at all this game. What if he's just afk?" Well, he could just be afk. I'm willing to admit that. But on the other hand, what if he is both AFK and scum? IMO we can't trust Kurumi to modkill him, given Kurumi's track record on modkills that I don't actually know anything about. And even worse, what if Kurumi replaces him? Yes, that would be the worst by far. Can we really trust Oatsmaster? No, we can't. His silence is speaking for him. It is saying "I am possibly a pretty good lynch u guyz"

But yeah gonna check out mderg since people seem to have a million boners for lynching him I guess. anyone got questions for me? I'll answer any question as long as it's coupled with a summary of the case on mderg.

On June 18 2014 04:58 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I still do not understand the mderg case. Can someone explain succinctly for me?

On June 20 2014 15:16 OnceKing wrote:


YouKnowZhou (3): Release, slOosh, VisceraEyes
VisceraEyes (2): mderg, Chezinu
Koshi (1): Lazermonkey
Snickers (1): YouKnowZhou
mderg (1): Snickers

Currently Not Voting (2): Artanis[Xp], Koshi

---

Currently YouKnowZhou is set to be lynched with 3 votes! Day will end in

Remember: Voting is mandatory. You can find the spreadsheet to the game here.

On June 21 2014 04:55 slOosh wrote:


Doesn't remember anything about mderg's play or even alignment in Detention. Immediately after says he has scumtells.

Total lies.

On June 21 2014 08:10 YouKnowZhou wrote:


I'll chime in. It makes me like mderg less. I still see him as opportunistic, and despite my thing about "no unflipped associations", I suddenly worry that mderg scum, snickers town and he's setting me up to get MLed tomorrow. mderg scum snickers scum might make sense as well if he's bussing / going for cred; his vote put snickers in the lead and was a "game changer".

That said, I am no longer confident that I can lynch him today. People seem to like him.

On June 21 2014 09:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Well, well well. I came in after dinner, made an amazing case, wowed everyone. They followed me and we caught scum. Just as I knew we would

On June 22 2014 06:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
slOosh, what's your current read on Release?

On June 22 2014 07:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
There is something that makes me think one of slOosh/YKZ is scum.

I consider this something that he either slipped as momentum came crashing down upon him, or it's something scum planted to incriminate bh to capitalize on it later, which slOosh is doing. It looks so weird to just throw that out there.

On June 05 2014 19:05 Palmar wrote:
Okay, before I start re-reading mderg, here's the reason I cleared him back on day 1:



To explain why I thought this looks super townie, and I still do.

Note the timing of his post. This is at the height of me doubting myself on the jabber lynch. mderg posted this shortly after I wrote my "too scummy to be scum" explanation for my hesitation.

This post makes mderg town because of his intentions (note you also have to check him out actually doing the defending). These are the possibilities:

1. mderg mafia/jabber mafia
2. mderg mafia/jabber town
3. mderg town/jabber mafia
4. mderg town/jabber town

The ones we're interested in eliminating are 1 and 2, if we want to reduce the chances of mderg being mafia.

1) Mderg explains it in the post himself. If he is mafia and knows jabber will flip mafia, why on earth is he hard defending someone who will almost certainly be lynched anyway. It makes absolutely no sense from a mafia perspective. I don't think mderg is capable of this meta play. Obviously we now know that this scenario also wasn't true, because jabber flipped town.

2) Mderg also addresses this, but he does it in a very particular way, I'll quote him: "Me being scum only makes sense, if jabber flips town. I could see mafia reasons for that." I hope I'm not the only one who noticed that if mderg is mafia, he made a super ballsy play of literally planting the idea that he may be mafia based on something he already knew would come true. Hell townies don't like to claim they might be mafia, mafia absolutely hates doing it. It's really, really hard for me to believe that mderg would be capable of such an advanced mafia play. There is a really good reason I said this:



I almost stand by that. This single post would be very, very impressive mafia play if mderg is mafia.

I'm writing this to set a baseline. I need to go back and read why I at one point said fuba is town. I don't quite remember that as well as this mderg post.

When I know why I called fuba town, I might do their filters, but no idea how much I'll be able to accomplish today. I'll do it before the deadline though.

On June 22 2014 07:15 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

I still have trouble reading him because of the lack of interaction though, and I don't like how he's still going after Snickers who is pretty much confirmed town. His filter is pretty difficult to read through but I guess he ended up on the right wagon so I can't be too critical.

On June 22 2014 07:35 Chezinu wrote:

Did you kill good karma because of me or because he was next to you in the vote?



Speaking of votes Why did you reorder the votes?? OH WAIT!! You reordered them again today! Order matters.



Why are you still here?

On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:

This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner.

On June 22 2014 06:56 slOosh wrote:
At this point in the game I'm process of elimination-ing and I still believe that YKZ is mafia.


In the middle of D1, people are considering mderg as a lynch option. YKZ does a soft deflect here, by asking for a summary of the case and at the same time offering up an Oats lurker lynch. It seemed quite strange because of how gungho he was on the bunnies wagon all D1, and the time he wasn't was when people are talking about mderg to say "hey what about this Oats guy?".

Another soft deflect here:

Then comes his huge point by point analysis pushing bunnies hard.

On D2 he pushes mderg, yes. But when?

He pushes him about ~35ish hours into the day. The thread atmosphere up to this point is that a YKZ lynch is very very possible:

I suspect given how little thread influence that scum had, that they anticipated one of them getting lynched, so tried to make the best of it by doing some hard busses. That way, at least they salvage some cred and try to make it to the next cycle.

I believe the set of posts here reflect the bus mentality:

There is a contradiction here, at most a minute apart. I believe it is because he decided his actions would be 'lynch mderg', and he would fill in the reasons as he went along. There's a hiccup here because he is just saying stuff and it lacks the consistency a townie would have when reading someone.

In the thick of D2 when votes are flying around, for a moment people consider a Snickers lynch, so he moves off to go on Snickers. It looks like Snickers might actually get lynched here. What happens next?

Backtracking. The confidence so present in the D1 wagon on bunnies is suddenly, conveniently, missing D2 on the mderg wagon. Now, his vote is still on Snickers here. Again, inconsistencies. He likes mderg less, and he never liked mderg here, so he must be extra scum read on mderg. He "suddenly" worries that mderg could be scum, which is inconsistent with his earlier posts, but yet doesn't move his vote onto mderg.

After it all, here's what he posts.

But that's not what happened as the whole point of this post is. He made a case with some inconsistencies, didn't push it with the confidence of D1 bunnies mislynch, moved onto Snickers, then suddenly had qualms when it looked like Snickers lynch was possible and mderg lynch could be avoided, and then only stuck his vote on mderg after it looked inevitable.

Yet he tries to frame himself for the one responsible for the lynch, which isn't at all true.

YKZ is still scum.

On June 22 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote:
Convenient that YKZ is interested in popping in to defend himself, but not at all in coming up with scum reads.

In any case my case can be summarized as "YKZ didn't really want to lynch mderg D2". You guys can reread D2 for yourselves and decide if it's true or I'm making stuff up.

On June 23 2014 06:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Alright, that's a fair point. Not willing to lynch ykz anymore.

On June 23 2014 07:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:


I've been having some trouble articulating my thoughts on this as well. So, when I do association, I try in general to do it the other way. If we look at flipped scum mderg, here's what we see:

It's noteworthy that mderg scumreads VE (link) and votes him, and only votes me when it's clear only mderg or I can be lynched D2.

That being said, in my opinion the most valuable associative tells are not based on what the flipped mafia did, but what other people did TO the flipped mafia before the flip. As I have mentioned before (link), this is a much more valuable form of information. The dying scum's goal is typically to throw off town and make it difficult to find his allies after he flips. this isn't to say there isn't info to be gained from mderg's filter, but the info to be gained from how other people interacted with him is much greater, in general.

On June 23 2014 07:34 Lazermonkey wrote:

I'm not scum so I can obviously just guess here.

I have already explained why I don't think its very unlikely that VE and mderg were scum bros. And why is Snickers even relevant here? He was suspected by many during D1-D2.

On June 23 2014 07:28 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

The only points against BH are how he's gone about Day 1 with tunneling Bunnies and then being antagonizing for a bit throughout the night. On Day 2, after his tunnel target died he went into the day fairly open in terms of who he wanted to lynch and re-evaluated a lot. The fact that he pushed mderg as strongly as he did is a point in his favour too. When there are some people (like myself and you) defending a scumread, there's no reason to throw him under the bus.

On June 23 2014 08:33 Chezinu wrote:
We need more drama in this thread.

##Vote VisceraEyes

On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.

##Vote: YouKnowZhou

On June 24 2014 04:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
I could lynch Koshi too. slOosh what say you about a Koshi lynch? Release? Is anyone that isn't a part of BH's Wrong Of The Month Club OPPOSED to a Koshi lynch?

On June 24 2014 04:26 Lazermonkey wrote:

Short version:

Pushed all the wrong wagons, defended mderg for quite unclear reasons.

On June 24 2014 04:34 Lazermonkey wrote:

I'm just saying this in case you and everyone else don't bother to check my filter accordingly: I did say that I was going to be very busy for 2-3 days before I was busy.

I'm not denying that my activity was poor as fuck during D2, I'm not denying that my reads were poor. I do know that I could've faked it all if I was scum. Try to keep what I said in mind before you vote me ONLY for sucking on D2 though. Feel free to vote me for other reasons though.

On June 24 2014 04:37 VisceraEyes wrote:

So help a brotha out and vote for LM so we can maybe lynch scum today.

On June 24 2014 04:41 Lazermonkey wrote:

I didn't vote mderg D1 so yhea...

Anyway, some form of mix of bad, wishy-washy reads, lurking and unlurking at the wrong moments.

On June 24 2014 05:55 YouKnowZhou wrote:
IMO, in a way Lazermo's saving grace is his utterly nonsensical vote on me:

There was NO CHANCE this vote would lynch me, based on when he made it. There's also no chance that this vote would possibly look good if he was scum. I could imagine town being like "w/e fuck it I'm voting who I want even if it makes no difference" but I can't imagine scum making such a boneheaded move. There's no chance to save mderg there, and if he's scum he knows mderg will flip scum. Why make a move like that? Sure, it's not like some amazing pro-town vote, especially since it's on me and not mderg, but look at the thought process here.

Imagine your'e Lazermo. You post a lot, you read the thread, but you're not particulariy "with it". You think YKZ is scum overt mderg, who is CLEARLY town. You try some shenannies onto like VE but that doesn't work out, and in the end you realize your vote will make no difference. Your townread, mderg, is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is your scumread, YKZ. It's too late. You can't do a thing. All you have left is a final act of defiance, futile defiance, but defiance nonetheless. You cast your worthless vote.

That makes sense to me. I see that.

Now, imagine you're scum Lazermo. Your scumbuddy mderg is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is a townie. Your vote is parked on VE, a nonconsequential wagon. You literally can't save mderg, and voting ykz will only make you look bad. Do you vote ykz? of course not! You're not a moron.

So, this vote makes Lazermo town.

On June 24 2014 07:07 YouKnowZhou wrote:


There is no "oh scum wouldn't do that" manoeuvre though, that's just wifom. You're just saying "this thing that only makes sense for a townie to do, makes sense for scum to do because it makes sense for a townie to do", but I'm talking about mindset here. Look, it's plausible that LM decided to do something insane that provides no tangible benefit, lots of potential downside, and plenty of potential getting-lynched-tomorrow-side, as scum, on the off chance we'd have this convo. Typically though, that's not how scum rolls.

And regarding vote count confusion, here's where the last vote count was: (link). Mderg had 5 votes, and I had 3.

Mderg votes me, bringing me up to 4. Then LM votes me, bringing me up to 5, at the last second, and sincee mderg hit 5 first, mderg is lynched. Now, it's possible LM was a confused scum, but the only other vote that happened in the final 10 minutes of the game was Mderg's. If Mderg and LM were scum together, Mderg and LM would be in the QT and Mderg would say something like "ok, I just voted for YKZ. If we can get one more townie to vote YKZ, you can hammer and we can kill him."

LM as scum would be keenly aware of the votecount. It's still possible that he got confused anyways, or he thought another townie had voted when in fact they hadn't, but the final 10 mintues were not actually confusing at all. 10 minutes before the lynch, it's 5-3. Mderg votes me, making it 5-4, 9 minutes before the lynch, and nobody votes until the very deadline, where LM brings it to 5-5 and mderg is flipped.

I think both scenarios are possible, but not likely.

On June 21 2014 09:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:
read lazermo's filter if i die now

On June 24 2014 05:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Can we please lynch Koshi though? His read post is so bad.
Talks about why VE is scum. Stops and goes over to Lazer and talks about how he wants to lynch Lazer, then ends his post with why VE is town based on unflipped associations presuming that Lazer is scum. He hasn't done anything this game other than voting for the right person in mderg. Case on Lazer boils down to "I'm not scum and he pushed me over his other suspects who I also think are town."
Is there any reason not to lynch him?
##Vote Koshi

On June 24 2014 07:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
Koshi is stepping up his posting and VE is posting exactly what you would expect from a scum. Yhea, I'm feeling good about this lynch now.

On June 24 2014 08:47 Lazermonkey wrote:

He actually started to push his scum reads for the first time in the game. That doesn't mean that he is posting well. It just means he posts less bad.

On June 24 2014 09:00 Release wrote:

would lazer but not koshi atm

On June 24 2014 04:23 Koshi wrote:

No, it is actually 100% truth.

On June 24 2014 05:15 Koshi wrote:
How hard can this be. There are still 5 people in the running for scum. BH/Release/Artanis look town. Or shot not be considered for the mderg lynch today. Artanis is a little fucker but who cares.
Snickers/VE/Lazermonkey/Chezinu/SloOsh are left.

Snickers can be excused due to mderg filter. Very unlikely that he is scum with mderg. Not a good lynch.
Chezinu is Chezinu and was on mderg. I guess we have a doc and not a cop so that's unfortunate but even then I wouldn't lynch Chezinu because he isn't harmful to town in any way. He isn't pushing an agenda he is just being around.

VE is away on the wrong moments, pushes scum but then doesn't vote scum, can't be tied to anybody in case he flips scum because his reads are all neutral, and is currently just showing activity.
Lazermonkey is just trying to get me lynched. Even when his top scumreads were SloOsh and VE he was pushing me the hardest. Look at D2, he just came in to push me while IGNORING the mderg/BH wagons. I am pretty sure that scumtactics were to get BH lynched (who was main candidate back then) and then myself.



All these posts indicate that Lazermonkey is actually following the thread. Nowhere it looks like he is lagging behind so he can't give an opinion on Mderg/BH. Clearly it was a choice from Lazermonkey to not comment on it. Why not? Because BH was going to get lynched and Lazermonkey was setting up the next misslynch. That's why. There is enough time between these posts to catch up with the thread. Are you going to believe he just came in once an hour and just looked at my filter and pushes me? Why wouldn't scum be superlazy on D2 with BH playing suicidal?

btw, looking in Lazermonkies filter I think VE is town. reasons:
1) Lazermonkies case on D3 is based on VE not defending bunnies enough D1. Knowing that Lazermonkey wasn't "able" to follow the game D2/N2 it is pretty insane he remembered all this from D1. ScumMonkey however could have planned this case as soon as bunnies was lynched D1.
2) As soon as I moved off LM and on VE today LM called me sensible. This means he got a pretty strong scumread on VE right? But as soon as VE enters the thread with null posts LM seems to have VE as town and starts to push Koshi/SloOsh. This could be because they are scumbuddies but could just as easily be because townVE was in the thread and is more active and has more influance than SloOsh and me.

I really want to lynch LM.

On June 24 2014 09:16 Lazermonkey wrote:
SlOosh read Koshi's filter early on. He didn't do shit. He did shit now. It wasn't very good but it was something.

On June 24 2014 09:30 Koshi wrote:

But he lynched me anyway?? What are you saying? I was dead. Overtime saved me.

On June 24 2014 09:43 Koshi wrote:

Dont vote me. I am not scum pls.

On June 24 2014 09:47 Koshi wrote:
Scum won. I cant believe this. Everybody can be scum really. I have no reads anymore. I also dont care anymore.

On June 24 2014 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Please consider lynching BH when I flip town. PLEASE. He's playing a super manipulative game, and given the circumstances, I think it makes him scum. He has no reason to be manipulative with things going his way as they have been lately - he's playing manipulative for a reason - to push an agenda. PLEASE consider him tomorrow.

On June 25 2014 04:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

You might be right. I think BH can be scum as well. Tunneled on two townies now.

On June 22 2014 06:30 slOosh wrote:

Right, slept it off, feeling fresh.

From what I recall D1, Lazermonkey felt decent. It seemed like he was involved in some discussions and talking, so I waived him as probs town and didn't read too carefully. On a reread, his vote on mderg came right before deadline when it was reasonably clear that bunnies would be lynched. It also isn't clear why he thought mderg is scum - the one time he voted he backed off the next post reasoning why he isn't scum.

His D2 play looks far worse and I feel is best summed up by this quote (for which I read strong town on Koshi prior to flip)

He makes no effort to understand any of the wagons and instead opts out of discussion, picking on Koshi and soft defending mderg:

After all is said and done, his final vote lands on YKZ:

"w/e". Votes are flying everywhere, people are scrambling to figure stuff out and "w/e". No reads on YKZ anywhere, still holding onto the mderg town read all the way from D1, no engaging in any discussion of D2.

Very good chance of scum.

Also, VE, I'd rather a YKZ read than a Snickers read given how D2 went down since I suspect the same kind of resulting observations, but you can do whatever since you've earned it.

On June 24 2014 04:19 VisceraEyes wrote:




So I think there's at least one mafia between me, Lazermonkey and Snickers because we all WERE on mderg on D1 and WERE NOT on mderg D2. Of everyone, I think it's probably LM because Snickers' case on me, while wrong, doesn't feel like effort scum put into trying to get a mislynch. LM is skating, sheeped the vote onto me and I think he's mafia here.

##Unvote
##Vote: Lazermonkey

Everyone voting for me should really just stop and vote for Lazermonkey or Snickers. I prefer Lazermonkey. BH if scum can wait. I'm not even reading his shit anymore because it's all nonsense and wrong.

On June 24 2014 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think Lazer is the best lynch because he is on a short list of people I think could be mafia based on the voting on D1 (myself, Snickers, LM) and now he's opportunistically voting for me NOT based on his own observations but based on the findings and mutterings of others. I've answered any points he's raised against me, and he's just ignored. I think Snickers is town and I KNOW I'm town so I think LM is the best lynch today.

On June 25 2014 06:35 Snickers wrote:
So sloosh what is your read on me. And I just read it quickly but I do not see how ykz koshi and Lazermonkey are related.

I forgot to type this when I had time but lazer and sloosh both "happened" to not be on the main lynch twice. So have I but I think it is understandable why. Not saying they are both scum, just something that I will try to look into later and something I thought people should know.

Also not sure if they voted town or scum.

On June 26 2014 06:04 OnceKing wrote:


Lazermonkey (2): slOosh, Chezinu
Koshi (1): YouKnowZhou

Currently Not Voting (4): Snickers, Lazermonkey, Release, Koshi

---

Currently Lazermonkey is set to be lynched with 2 votes! Day will end in

Remember: Voting is mandatory. You can find the spreadsheet to the game here.

On June 26 2014 05:12 Release wrote:
FFS his late vote was inconsequential, and I had initially thought not alignment indicative. However, under further consideration, the vote will certainly generate discussion about itself, not particularly useful information (I believe), so I see it as an impetus for increased chaos in our discussions. I think Lazer tried to brush off the vote with the few posts after his vote, and stop us from ascribing responsibility to him. However, if you believe that the vote was a well-informed decision (and I don't believe that anything says otherwise), then I have to believe that Lazer intended to cause chaos with the vote.

In addition to his vacillating nature,
##Vote Lazermonkey

On June 27 2014 03:20 Lazermonkey wrote:
So, who do I want to lynch then? Koshi. By process of elimination I know that YKZ is likely town. Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. The fact that Koshi has been scummier in general this game makes me want to kill him over Release. But I'm obviously willing to kill anyone in order to survive at this point...

On June 27 2014 06:47 Release wrote:
Forget the check. Stance on YKZ? (goes to everyone)

On June 27 2014 07:19 YouKnowZhou wrote:


Okay, but I want to be clear here: yesterday, your vote was on Koshi. You did switch back and forth between the two of them a bit, but in the end, your vote was on Koshi. Was it just for consolidation reasons, or did you actually think he was a better lynch than LM? What changed your mind today? Are you ignoring the green check (which is reasonable, but if you are, please own it)?

On June 25 2014 08:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Reads
Town
Chezinu - The way the game has developed makes no sense for him to be mafia. There's also one comment in his filter that makes me near certain that he's town.

On June 27 2014 08:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:


Do you honestly think I wouldn't have bussed Lazer by this point as scum? ._. Look man, I'm here to talk with Lazer because I have a townread on him. I'm pretty sure he's gonna flip town and tomorrow we're at LYLO. We need to pump this guy for all the info we can get out of him in the next half hour before he flips. Obviously none of you are even remotely interested in saving him, and if my goal was simply to look good, I'd find great reasons to vote LM. If I were scum with him, I'd bus him, win solo, and then spend every game bragging about how good I am at scum and how I'm willing to bus awful teammates. When it comes down to it, LM is likely to flip town. You guys are all just wrong and I'm right.

This lynch is my fault for failing to convince you guys, since I'm the smartest player here. The responsibility falls solely on me, the town leader, for failing to corral the necessary votes to save LM.

LM: I am sorry. I really am. But you can't afford to dispair now. Keep talking.

On June 27 2014 09:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:
LM, I promise your words will not go to your grave with you. I'll win this for you. You did a really good job of staying on-topic even as you died, which few players can do. Your death will not be a vain.

New night, same deal: leave me questions and they'll be answered by the end of the night.

On June 28 2014 02:38 Koshi wrote:
I am really sorry for my play this game. Won't happen ever again. New styles don't suit me. Don't know why I try them. Sad Koshi is sad.

On June 25 2014 21:04 Koshi wrote:
WoW. the points in your case are all filler or bullshit. WoW BH...

1) With the first quote you should also add that in the start of the night I wanted to lynch VE. But then Artanis said something smart and I agreed with it and said SloOsh/LM was better. However, it is not that my VE suspicion on D3 came out of nowhere like you appear it to be.

2) So now were are quoting posts that make sense. Useful. This is 1/3rd of your case already and nothing happened.

3) You are not reading the thread BH, I explained why I asked that question to LM about VE. That entire "transition" moment in your case on me is wrong. Kinda sad because the reasoning for my question is in the thread. Halfway your case and still nothing.


4) Yes, I followed your big case on VE. It was a good case. I also followed your case on mderg and it fueled that lynch. Is there a difference between how I followed this case and how I followed mderg case? Is there scum motivation? If it is the same, why were you town on me till it was clear VE or me were going to be lynched D3? Again. I also want to add I wanted to lynch VE before. This case just made my desire to lynch VE strong again. Like... What is scummy about this: I think x is scum ---> Somebody says x is not scum because y ----> I agree and say x is probably town ---> Somebody else says x is scum for reasons abcd ----> I think x is scum again. It shows town mindset imo and not scum.

5) Artanis wanted me to do something and because I couldn't add more to your VE case I wanted to make a general "how to win this game post". In this post I wanted to write quick reasons to why VE/LM/Sloosh were scum. When I got to LM his filter I quoted posts which showed he was clearly following the thread but choose not to comment on Mderg/VE but just kept pushing me. I got distracted from my original goal and pressed send when I was done with LM. Pretty sure I wanted to interact a bit around this case but it didn't happen. The part about VE was because I had VE/LM as most likely scumteam since I voted VE and it seemed less likely after reading LM filter. I AGREE that it was a bad post. You should think could town Koshi have made it? Pro-tip: The answer is yes.


Your case is bad BH. Try again? I want you to try again.

On June 30 2014 09:11 Kurumi wrote:
The lynch on checks was very weird... Snickers had 3 green checks, one of the Mafia was already dead so his sanity was clearly Sane. The only thing you needed to figure out if there is Framer present and what his action would be ._. Also big props to Release for usage of his role - he has done the most optimal actions you could ever imagine.

On June 30 2014 09:13 Blazinghand wrote:


You have no idea how much I wanted to lynch/push you, but refrained, because you had a greencheck on you. yes, slOosh, I would.

Look, obviously this is my fault for getting lynched at LYLO. I failed to adequately convince you of my towniness. Hell, I had a greencheck on me, it should have been easy. I had the scumteam pegged, I had all the right reads, I even convinced the other townie to vote the right way, but I couldn't convince YOU. I fucked up.

But part of this is on you, too, for having me as scum and not town. Maybe this isn't majority your fault; after all, I was the one who got lynched. But you still voted the wrong way at lylo, so yes, maybe you should re-evaluate your read because of a greencheck.

On July 05 2013 13:25 slOosh wrote:
I think OO would have won straight out by shooting Coag instead of Oats, given that I was tunneling so hard. A large part of why I thought Adam was scum was that there was (from my POV), very little to explain D1 concerning OO bus, and I was pretty paranoid after back to back uncertain mislynches, and I thought that scum in your position (non DP voters) would have to eventually pull 1 mislynch off the DP voter pool to win.

So yes, shoot Coag -> I blind tunnel Oats into oblivion, and Oats probably counter vote me.

I only started listening to dead Adam once Oats died, which served as the trigger that he wished his death would be. After that it was pretty easy to sift through OO being scum (beside the setup spec which I was doubting till the end).