EPTYet lurking seems to be generally accepted as ok because certain specific people are allowed by hosts and players to lurk game after game after game.
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geript
10024 Posts
Yet lurking seems to be generally accepted as ok because certain specific people are allowed by hosts and players to lurk game after game after game. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
This has been brought up before but the conversations haven't exactly reached any helpful conclusions... Mafia is a game where a few people have wincons that must be achieved by lying and maliciously (subtly or not) influencing town atmosphere to their advantage. When a townie accuses another person of being mafia... they are accusing them of being a liar. The word "scum" implies a lot beyond "a mafia player." I don't think there's any way around this and it's the nature of the game. When people are looking for an impostor it's pretty natural that townies might grow to hate their fellow townie when one or both of them is accusing the other. I think the only solution would be for every single town player to make efforts to only make logical posts, free of ad hominem and the like. But maybe that makes it harder to differentiate scum and townies, when things like "this player is displaying X emotions" are no longer valid scum/town tells? I haven't reached a single conclusion in this post because I don't think there is a conclusion that aligns with each person's preferred method of play.... so what do? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:02 geript wrote: I think thrawn's mocking me. Whatever. I hadn't read your previous post until just now when you posted this... so no | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
The only problem i see within games is the I'm right and you're wrong attitudes. Some people think they are God's gift to mafia and everything they say is gospel when they have no superior knowledge (unless they are scum) to anyone else. When people don't accept their word then arguments break out. The only way to solve this is by directly showing people their mistakes. I think a dedicated analysis team would actually be good if people could spare the time and maybe some kind of HR guy where people could pm him about a person and they could talk through things together, maintains anonymity and helps to improve the situation. I also think voice communication is far less confrontational and abrasive than text, so maybe some arranged post game skype or ts analysis could happen in games where people can talk about the bad and the good and get things off their chest without the text ego's. #MafiaTherapy2013 | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
look at my first few posts in my first newbie game to see what I mean by my "preferred style of play" ... (ignore the terribleness and focus on my tone) | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:20 thrawn2112 wrote: personally... I think I'd prefer a game completely free of emotion. that's my personal preference. but the only way for that to happen is for me to sign up with a game full of people who have similar wishes and that's not going to happen. look at my first few posts in my first newbie game to see what I mean by my "preferred style of play" ... (ignore the terribleness and focus on my tone) I can't imagine playing a game with no emotion. Sorry bud. Geript is right though, lurking is *so* frustrating to deal with as either alignment.. but I think that is only one facet. I dunno the solution, but i do admit I am part of the problem - as are most people playing these days. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
When the abuse extends to directly insulting the person as person, or refers to continuing outside the game, or threatens in game behaviour to make the game unfun, then at this time, if i choose to host games there is somewhere out there I will modkill for some behaviour like that. Currently I am unwilling to host games because i wont put myself in the position of having to modkill people for behavior, and thus being stuck between allowing the behaviour to continue in my game that I will have spent my time designing so other people can have fun, and mod killing them which can if I cant replace them also damage the fun factor little or if late game damage it a lot. I have had some thoughts about designing a new signup system whereby people dont specify who they dont want to play (black ball WoCrowds) with but PM a list JUST some of those whom they do want to play with. I am pretty sure a pattern would rapidly emerge of which people to sign up for the game so that at the end of the game the players would be happy they had played. I have serious issues with that about cliqueness, but I think I can solve all those with some math magic. primarily, Playing in one game would make it less likely you'd be able to play in the next. it would also I think its look like a way to get a good (less harsh) environment for people fresh out of noobs to get their feet wet. it could also provide an incentive for people to play in way that was fun to play with, in their other games too. At the very least it would make people aware that their chosen play style did really affect other peoples FunCon. A carrot and stick kind of approach. Edit: I am now up to three distinct reason I don't like my idea above. I can do it. I could play in such a set-up and it would all be good. That wasn't the problem I was trying to fix. I currently believe it would generate and encourage its own new problems.  To man with a hammer...Things that suck. Playing this game as town such that later games when you are scum will be easier. While there almost must be some of that, when you do it to the detriment of your contribution to winning as town this game then that is a problem. By any of the various methods. Lurk, post no reasoning, ... When you are scum you play as a team. When you are town you are the only towny you know so you just play with and yourself and perhaps more importantly for yourself. The concept on this site that people would purposefully as a vanilla towny regularly provide 'seer cover' by trying to look like a cop to attract the kill is .... funny sad funny sad. I hadn't even heard of the concept until I visited 2p2. (apologies to the good players who do do good stuff for the team BTW.) being so confrontational when accused that people really just cant be bothered with the grief of accusing you or even probing you. OMGUS times rabid outrage. If you are challenged as a towny the USEFUL to town thing to do is cooperate to find out why they think you are scum and then show them you are not. Shirt fronting them into never bothering is ... needing to look up the word altruism in the dictionary. (edit: yeah i just read this back. and its possibly going to still be while before I think I am safe to play again.) | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:14 Holyflare wrote: I also think voice communication is far less confrontational and abrasive than text, so maybe some arranged post game skype or ts analysis could happen in games where people can talk about the bad and the good and get things off their chest without the text ego's. #MafiaTherapy2013 voice may be good if everyone has it. anonymity of text makes everyone a hero in their own mind. Also actual tone and inflection is missing as is the feeling in sincerity speaking. it can also possibly devolve fast? edit: I reread what I write before I post (in this case I also reread it the next day) voice has fewer 'take backs'. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:56 geript wrote: Honestly, I think a major part of the problem is people's compsensaty to lurk. Losing to lurkers is exceptionally frustrating. Lynching lurkers and losing because of it is exceptionally frustrating. Yet lurking seems to be generally accepted as ok because certain specific people are allowed by hosts and players to lurk game after game after game. I dont tell hosts how to design their games. If i don't like them i don't sign up. I will point out that in say a standard 13 vanilla 10/3 setup. That kinda about means, mafia kills two good townies for every one (hopefuilly playing bad today one) that gets mislynched. What that does is it set the bar rather low for what kind of towny you need to be if you want the best chance of being alive as long as possible. (not sure why some poeple want that) But anyway scum have more control over who survives to Lylo. more Vigs, would (could) make a number of the strategies such as Lurking less popular. More vigs do (should) make games town favored. 16 town two D1 vigs no docs/cops 4 scum would leave leeway for one modkill and be a real incentive not to lurk out D1. if that doesnt work ... (not enough incentive) 16 town eight D1 vigs no docs/cops 3 scum would make my intentions clearer. Id hopefully only ever have to run that setup once. (Im probably only joking, I hope.) I thought about more vigs for a time, but derp town tendency to go YOLO who can i shoot that if they just happen to be scum will make me hero and i will just claim YOLO or LOLs if I miss. I had a clever Axle idea. A host could run a competition in the Obs end of D1, to guess who the vig wouldn't and shouldn't shoot. There are usually OBV, dont shoot him, targets. If the vig shoots an obv 'dont shoot that dude' target the vig dies. (obv dont shoot targets are unaware NRA members) I know that sounds like an outrageous thing... but it was the only way i could think for Vigs to be gently encouraged to shoot the best for town targets. Well i could threaten the game might do that.... BTW I just did threaten any game i host may work like that. If I am host and i give out vig I expect it to be used to enhance towns win con. is that ok? (edit: oh yeah and the vig would be compulsive) | ||
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OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
I like you Corazon.I'm not sure yet if you are a troll but you provide me with many lols. User was warned for this post | ||
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 05 2013 01:25 OOHCHILD wrote: How much of a little b do you have to be to quit mafia because someone is being mean to you? I like you Corazon.I'm not sure yet if you are a troll but you provide me with many lols. what in the world does this have to do with the discussion | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
That point on its own will help significantly in dealing with the hostility created in these games. Tensions are always going to be high in a game of mafia, but if you remove the acceptance of the "dont care" attitude a ton of people have and force them to care about the game and play properly the behaviour will shift. There are other things we as a community could surely do, but as someone whos played for years the biggest thing I have noticed is the shift of acceptance towards people who just troll and do shit for fun rather than try to win. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Lurkers clearly arent the problem, there have been lurkers forever. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 05 2013 02:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Break down on people who actively play against their win conditions. I have noticed as someone whos played this game off and on for years that my biggest factor in how much I get angry/flip out is people who actively play against their win conditions. That point on its own will help significantly in dealing with the hostility created in these games. Tensions are always going to be high in a game of mafia, but if you remove the acceptance of the "dont care" attitude a ton of people have and force them to care about the game and play properly the behaviour will shift. There are other things we as a community could surely do, but as someone whos played for years the biggest thing I have noticed is the shift of acceptance towards people who just troll and do shit for fun rather than try to win. Shameless +1. I agree wholeheartedly. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9648 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:47 Mocsta wrote: Sicilian mafia hosted by Ver was a post restriction game. I think that also got pretty heated. People in this community do give praise when you play well; but absolutely ridicule you to bits when it goes astray. Sicilian was a post restriction plus pms game. I don't think the post restriction idea has been adequately explored yet. | ||
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