|
Civility Please |
United States22154 Posts
The Feel of the Game
Originally this was going to go in the original thread, but I think in the interest of gaining emotional distance, we'd better do this in a separate thread.
There are two principal things I want to talk about before I delve into an analysis of day 1.
An atmosphere of rot and Inflated Egos. Lets start talking about the rotten atmosphere
One of the things I noticed this game, both in the the game itself and in the surrounding quicktopics, was a constant, toxic atmosphere. No one ever said "wow X played well" it was always "wow Y is such a MORONIC DOUCHECUNT!", while its easy to assign the blame of this two one or two people, that would be incorrect, while one or two people can have a strong effect on atmosphere, even a single positive figure can reverse that trend. Its highly disappointing to me, to watch both people who are involved in the game, and thus emotionally invested, and people who aren't, contribute to this general sense of negativity. This is a problem, because it isn't just this game, it feels like a persistent game, mostly based around people not letting grudges from old games go. Atmosphere like this is why my games include wisdom of the crowds, so it can be settled pregame (and why from now on, I'll use a fixed replacement list, so that they can get WotCed out if the group desires as well). The bottom line is this, the only way threads are going to get better if there's an attitude change from *all* of us, not just the people involved directly with a game, otherwise games are going to continue spiraling into pits of doom where the atmosphere is so poisonous that no one can learn anything after the game is over because everyone hates each other. Its especially heinous when it causes people to want to no longer play. We're a small community, making people feel intimidated and worthless and leading them out is utterly unacceptable. I've seen it before, communities where the "vets" were so bitter and harsh no one joined any more. Lets not do that, because I know I don't really want to be a member of a community that drives out people based on their performance in a game, or god forbid, for not being able to be around at the arbitrary deadline. Remember, its a game, losing does not mean your family will be eaten by rabid badgermoles, nor will you be deported to Siberia, its just a dot in a statistic.
This segues in to our next point, which is the incredible ego some players are developing, which blinds them to any perspective different from their own. I don't care if you're lynching scum 93% of the time, and if you can sit at your computer playing mafia 18 hours of every day, that doesn't make you a better person or a more important community member than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the right to lord over other people and tell them that they are awful at mafia, regardless of how true or untrue it may be. Its an easy trap to fall into, trivially easy, to become enamored of one's own play, regardless of its skill, and justify every decision as wonderful and amazing, since you understand your own thought process. One of the hardest things we all have to do, is set aside that ego, and consider that other people may be right. This means, blaming oneself for your defeat, even if you're the last scum in the endgame fighting against a mod confirmed bulletproof vigilante, if you lose, you still blame yourself and try to find ways to improve. It hurts to set one's ego aside, to admit that "hey, maybe shooting Ver as a vigilante was unwise". While ego might be an useful tool during a game, as it allows you to push the town in the direction you want and keeps you from being swayed from your points, it can also be incredibly harmful, as you get stuck on your reads and wind up ignoring what could be obvious scum. I think everyone could use practicing this game, in the postgame and eventually in actual games. Towns work better when people are willing to *listen* to each other, and scum can seem suddenly town by pretending to listen as well. The bottom line is this, as long as you're holding on to the idea that you're gods gift to mafia, you will never find out what you have done wrong, and you'll stay as whatever kind of player you currently are, be that mediocre or fantastic, while other players rise above you. This basically destroys any chance of player level ever improving, and feeds back into the poisonous atmosphere. The only way to get good, is to read what players say about you, and try to learn from it. This isn't just addressed to players, it affects hosts, analysts and coaches, letting go of the ego while analyzing and providing feedback is really important, as it avoids confrontation. Confrontation leads to people ignoring your points, since telling someone "You pototaomongerer, you *never* claim Tassalgor in this game! Fool!" means they're going to automatically reject your advice.
These are the general main problems I saw when reading the thread, feel free to discuss them, and other general issues you might have felt, and tomorrow we begin talking about day 1 specifically.
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic.
|
I think it's completely spot on.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic.
We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is".
I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
|
|
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add.
On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
|
Marv if you're only going to use this thread as a medium to fire shots at me, please go away. Thank you.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 01:50 marvellosity wrote:The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add. Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
I was at MLG and than it was thanksgiving, it was also rather hard to find specific posts when most of the issue was with tone. Its really easy for me to warn for "Moron", a little less for "You aren't putting enough effort into the game". I'm going to do warnings and bans for specifics when I finish going through the thread for analysis anyway.
|
Even if you are a competitive person, it is helpful to focus on being correct, or accurate, rather than getting too invested in whether other players listen to your cases.
|
On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
was it corazon?
if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week.
No, jampidampi
|
Uncalled for, Dandel
I said nothing demeaning to jampi so don't go blaming it on me.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 02:05 cDgCorazon wrote:
Uncalled for, Dandel
I said nothing demeaning to jampi so don't go blaming it on me.
1.) This isn't about blame, I was very cautious not to name names when writing this post, its a call to action, for future games.
2.) Please stop taking everything super personally ^_^
|
I don't think that is possible after having everyone in the forum call you an asshole.
|
11589 Posts
If I was unfairly critical in anything I said, I apologize, but I mean what I wrote. I used to be a bad player, and now I'm pretty decent at town. I know how to improve. If you disagree with how I said what I said, I suppose I understand, but I mean it truthfully when I say that it was fair criticism.
|
On December 04 2013 02:02 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week. No, jampidampi
Really?
I don't recall him being on the receiving end of any vitriol?
Thats a shame though. His early reads were quite good.
|
I think Mafia can have some of the same potential problems as DotA. The games are very long, players may invest a lot of their time and feelings into it, and elitism is such an easy trap for more experienced players.
On the other hand, I can also understand. I remember being angry at one fellow townie who made a really suspicious move and got lynched instead of a Mafia player at the last minutes. I was also slightly angry at a host whose miscommunication caused me to be Vigi shot.
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Well, that Wisdom of the Crowds -system also seems like a good idea. At least it might be able to help with the most extreme cases of hate / bitterness...
|
On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis.
Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
|
On December 04 2013 01:49 Chezinu wrote:
I <3 you guys.
Kudos GMarsh and u Chezinu, and ditto Chezinu...
Marv I am also on the brink of being all "imma just host stuff now", GMarsh is right. However my <3 of the game runz deep!
I give my sincerest apology to whomever put mafia aside, I baited the atmosphere in this game a little... And as scum I was inherently creating it.
|
On December 04 2013 01:50 marvellosity wrote:The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add. Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
Ditto. Onegu is awesome even if my phone always wants to make it ONEGU
He was the first Svengali and I fear him as town every game ;D
|
United Kingdom30774 Posts
I think the restriction on the limit of newbie games is a bit intense as everyone learns at a different pace. However, there IS a turning point where you become not-newbie but at the same time not-awesome and that is a niche that some games need to fill. I like the idea of an intermediate level newbie game where people who aren't quite comfortable with their game can enjoy time to improve in. I love the use of coaches and post-game analysis too, in all honesty I think people should be forced into having a coach in newbies because as a new player they can be absolutely vital in improving your play.
I think the main problem people come accross as was seen in BttB was emotional investment. It's tough to seperate emotion and logic in a game where you devote so much of your time to it and when people don't listen to you it gets tough, just like IRL. However, what people need to realise is every action and reaction means something, if people don't listen to you there are reasons for that. Maybe it is the way you come across or maybe it is that they are just not as invested into the game as you. Maybe they weren't convinced? This is where emotion has to be discarded. All of these reactions should develop into reads, this is a game of logic. Every post that someone makes is based off an individual thought process and subconscious style. Analyse those styles, use them as fuel to your fire and generate more and more discussion!
The single most powerful weapon a person has is their ability to write coherently and participate in discussion. Once you deviate from doing that then scum can hide in the shadows and downplay themselves.
|
On December 04 2013 02:09 cDgCorazon wrote:
I don't think that is possible after having everyone in the forum call you an asshole.
1: I never went that far (the dmv Cora fiasco was calling you stubborn and set in your ways)
2: I also realized my own past condemns what I did.
3: I have seen Blazinghand try to do the same at the very least (call back what he said earlier), you must be aware that people can feel regret, so...
I haven't seen marv actually attack you yet either.
Remember when reading my posts, believe it or not I am almost exactly like you but on a microcosm. Everything appears hostile and after I write something it looks hostile as well, yet when I write something that gets a reaction I am surprised even though I thought it might be hostile too.
One just needs to ask what was mean and move on, remembering not to use that wording again- even if others do and skate by unnoticed.
The other side of the necessary coin is to assume someone meant the best until they start cussing. And even then check the context of the cussing.
|
On December 04 2013 03:06 Holyflare wrote:
I think the restriction on the limit of newbie games is a bit intense as everyone learns at a different pace. However, there IS a turning point where you become not-newbie but at the same time not-awesome and that is a niche that some games need to fill. I like the idea of an intermediate level newbie game where people who aren't quite comfortable with their game can enjoy time to improve in. I love the use of coaches and post-game analysis too, in all honesty I think people should be forced into having a coach in newbies because as a new player they can be absolutely vital in improving your play.
I think the main problem people come accross as was seen in BttB was emotional investment. It's tough to seperate emotion and logic in a game where you devote so much of your time to it and when people don't listen to you it gets tough, just like IRL. However, what people need to realise is every action and reaction means something, if people don't listen to you there are reasons for that. Maybe it is the way you come across or maybe it is that they are just not as invested into the game as you. Maybe they weren't convinced? This is where emotion has to be discarded. All of these reactions should develop into reads, this is a game of logic. Every post that someone makes is based off an individual thought process and subconscious style. Analyse those styles, use them as fuel to your fire and generate more and more discussion!
The single most powerful weapon a person has is their ability to write coherently and participate in discussion. Once you deviate from doing that then scum can hide in the shadows and downplay themselves.
This is genius
|
11589 Posts
That niche is what GM games tend to fill.
|
With jampi gone now ( assuming he actually quit) JJD is the only other player from my newbie game back that I see play somewhat. I think it is a very serious and real problem.
and even though he doesn't play that much jampi was probably the best player to come out of that newbie game, real shame
|
On December 04 2013 02:39 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis. Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
Hi
I have been posting the Pokémon "Ditto" lately
So I won't do that here
|
On December 04 2013 03:09 yamato77 wrote:
That niche is what GM games tend to fill.
Ah-
Is-
Well I have starry eye syndrome probably.
How new is Raynepelikoneet, Blazinghand? If BH is actually pretty new I am gonna be all  again because he foots it with the best ;D
|
On December 04 2013 02:39 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis. Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
I was ridiculously scared playing in my first non-newbie game, Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition. I did get some great advice that really helped me out from JingleHell which I'll repeat here:
1: Ignore the vets. They don't respect each other, why should you?
2: The first thing to learn about TL mafia is you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Everybody talks about all this mystical knowledge, but what it really comes down to is inference based on behavior. Never completely apologize, always be able to explain your reasons, and don't think about your own posting in terms of scum tells.
If you overdo something, apologize for giving people room to misunderstand you. Your intentions were fine, they just took you all wrong. Don't fall into the trap of trying to avoid inconsistencies throughout the game. A real townie isn't trying to survive, they're trying to kill scum. If you're inconsistent, it's because of new information changing your evaluation. Townies should do that.
And finally, never take anyone's advice as being perfectly accurate. Odds are, they didn't express themselves perfectly, and you didn't understand it the way they meant it, and people's minds work differently.
I'm not sure if there's a need for "mid level" games. There's a hard enough time filling some games now, adding a 3rd level, will just make it even more difficult. What if we did more of this or its reverse? Maybe every once in a while have a small shadowing mafia game of less than 10 actual players (maybe more but only if there is enough interest and enough partners), but everyone in that game has a specific shadow. Or make it like a hydra game but only one head can talk. That might fill the desire for more midlevel games with access to not so much coaching (it might be that as well) but just someone to bounce ideas off of and learn how to play better.
|
On December 04 2013 03:22 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:39 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis. Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure. I was ridiculously scared playing in my first non-newbie game, Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition. I did get some great advice that really helped me out from JingleHell which I'll repeat here: Show nested quote +1: Ignore the vets. They don't respect each other, why should you?
2: The first thing to learn about TL mafia is you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Everybody talks about all this mystical knowledge, but what it really comes down to is inference based on behavior. Never completely apologize, always be able to explain your reasons, and don't think about your own posting in terms of scum tells.
If you overdo something, apologize for giving people room to misunderstand you. Your intentions were fine, they just took you all wrong. Don't fall into the trap of trying to avoid inconsistencies throughout the game. A real townie isn't trying to survive, they're trying to kill scum. If you're inconsistent, it's because of new information changing your evaluation. Townies should do that.
And finally, never take anyone's advice as being perfectly accurate. Odds are, they didn't express themselves perfectly, and you didn't understand it the way they meant it, and people's minds work differently. I'm not sure if there's a need for "mid level" games. There's a hard enough time filling some games now, adding a 3rd level, will just make it even more difficult. What if we did more of this or its reverse? Maybe every once in a while have a small shadowing mafia game of less than 10 actual players (maybe more but only if there is enough interest and enough partners), but everyone in that game has a specific shadow. Or make it like a hydra game but only one head can talk. That might fill the desire for more midlevel games with access to not so much coaching (it might be that as well) but just someone to bounce ideas off of and learn how to play better.
Oh yeah you reminded me I something
Ty
|
Another way to improve that hasn't been used in a while is the shadowing thread. It takes you out of the game itself but allows you to work on getting better. You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I'd suggest an increase of shadowing in particular though for those of you feeling unsure of how to play in non newbie games.
|
On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that).
|
On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that).
None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous.
|
On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous.
Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though.
Make one :D
Also given suggestions in this thread I may host A Game of Shadows soon.
(and working on d1 analysis tonight for this game)
|
On December 04 2013 03:51 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though. Make one :D Also given suggestions in this thread I may host A Game of Shadows soon. (and working on d1 analysis tonight for this game)
GMarsh
U R BOSS
|
On December 04 2013 03:51 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though. Make one :D Also given suggestions in this thread I may host A Game of Shadows soon. (and working on d1 analysis tonight for this game)
/in
|
I focus on Cora be cause I see some of the most potential in Cora. Say what you will about his skill or demeanor, but no one can ever accuse Cora of just not caring about a game and that's something to me in the current state of the game. Many times over the course of the game Cora was one of very few focused active players and to ignore that because he takes the game too personally is unfair and actually does feed the mentality I think GM is trying to eradicate.
|
I do not see potential in some one fake claiming a cop check to get their way, I would rather have some one neutrally affect the game then negatively affect it, as I have always said. Much easier to win with the former.
Just look at the recent games and where people did this (mocsta, corazon, etc) and see how those games turned out due to it...not good
|
I've an idea! what if the analysts did a podcast on this? I'd totally tune in!
|
On December 04 2013 06:00 Bereft wrote:
I've an idea! what if the analysts did a podcast on this? I'd totally tune in!
Yes because reading the simple analysis of how I derailed the town isn't enough.
|
On December 04 2013 06:01 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 06:00 Bereft wrote:
I've an idea! what if the analysts did a podcast on this? I'd totally tune in! Yes because reading the simple analysis of how I derailed the town isn't enough.
I'm going to request that you do not comment in this thread if all you're going to do is make snippy remarks at everyone because you feel slighted. This thread is for everyone's benefit. Now I just attempted to curb the seething Cora hate that HAS bled into this thread, but you're doing yourself no favors by being snippy here. If you don't care, just leave. If you do care, comment constructively or don't at all please.
This is not an attempt to belittle you or bully you. This is an attempt to maintain the integrity of the intent of this thread.
|
On December 04 2013 06:22 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 06:01 cDgCorazon wrote:On December 04 2013 06:00 Bereft wrote:
I've an idea! what if the analysts did a podcast on this? I'd totally tune in! Yes because reading the simple analysis of how I derailed the town isn't enough. I'm going to request that you do not comment in this thread if all you're going to do is make snippy remarks at everyone because you feel slighted. This thread is for everyone's benefit. Now I just attempted to curb the seething Cora hate that HAS bled into this thread, but you're doing yourself no favors by being snippy here. If you don't care, just leave. If you do care, comment constructively or don't at all please. This is not an attempt to belittle you or bully you. This is an attempt to maintain the integrity of the intent of this thread.
Fair enough. I'm just not very happy with the unfair treatment I have received post-game that went way beyond the amount of hate and inappropriateness I showed during the game.
I do appreciate your words as it seems like you are the only one who is analyzing me as fair as possible (Yamato is pretty close as well) and I will heed your advice.
I will probably comment about D1 and a bit of D2 as the analysis comes out but I'll stay out of the thread.
|
United States3756 Posts
Cora is sexy. That is all.
|
Feel free to stick around - asking questions and for clarification on things is a part of learning. Just stop taking things personally and getting bent out of shape about it here guy. <3
I'm also working on my D1 analysis and it will be incoming tonight sometime.
|
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus.
|
On December 04 2013 06:41 geript wrote:
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus.
Why didn't I?
It is how you bus not the fact it is done that can implicate you
I actually gained TC from my bus
|
On December 04 2013 08:02 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 06:41 geript wrote:
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus. Why isn't i? It is how u bus not the fact it is done that can implicate you I actually gained TC from my bus
Idk. Didn't read the thread at all. I just figured I'd think you were obv scum.
Edit: to clarify, between my ego, the fact that,IMO, I understand your thought process better than most and the fact that I'd be coming in reading knowing you were scum. I didn't see a point in asking about you. Didn't want or mean to say/imply that you were obv scum.
|
On December 04 2013 08:03 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 08:02 Alakaslam wrote:On December 04 2013 06:41 geript wrote:
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus. Why isn't i? It is how u bus not the fact it is done that can implicate you I actually gained TC from my bus Idk. Didn't read the thread at all. I just figured I'd think you were obv scum.
He was-ish. We were going to vote him the second last day.
But we were forced to lynch Onegu.
|
On December 04 2013 08:05 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 08:03 geript wrote:On December 04 2013 08:02 Alakaslam wrote:On December 04 2013 06:41 geript wrote:
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus. Why isn't i? It is how u bus not the fact it is done that can implicate you I actually gained TC from my bus Idk. Didn't read the thread at all. I just figured I'd think you were obv scum. He was-ish. We were going to vote him the second last day. But we were forced to lynch Onegu.
No one forced you to do anything - your vote is your own and you're free to not vote with someone if you don't agree with their target. Saying you were forced into doing something is unfair. I agree that Cora could have gone about what he did differently, but no one forced you to do anything Mocsta. ESPECIALLY after he came clean about the fake-claim.
|
I'm not going to deny responsibility since I didn't exactly fight it. but does it matter if you have free will if your hands are tied?
in any case I'd prefer the game end when it did than for us to no lynch ourselves into oblivion.
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though.
In all seriousness I will make infinite time for anyone who wants it. And given posting freely isn't an issue for me (:p) I may be your guy.
|
On December 04 2013 08:08 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 08:05 Mocsta wrote:On December 04 2013 08:03 geript wrote:On December 04 2013 08:02 Alakaslam wrote:On December 04 2013 06:41 geript wrote:
My question is why wasn't Scib caught on the scum bus? I always get caught when I bus. Why isn't i? It is how u bus not the fact it is done that can implicate you I actually gained TC from my bus Idk. Didn't read the thread at all. I just figured I'd think you were obv scum. He was-ish. We were going to vote him the second last day. But we were forced to lynch Onegu. No one forced you to do anything - your vote is your own and you're free to not vote with someone if you don't agree with their target. Saying you were forced into doing something is unfair. I agree that Cora could have gone about what he did differently, but no one forced you to do anything Mocsta. ESPECIALLY after he came clean about the fake-claim. The best outcome I could have achieved was a ##No-Lynch where we would be stuffed anyways.
I decided to roll with it + Onegu didn't take my olive branch.
Yes, I have accountability - and I don't think I have shied from that in-game or post-game.
I'm just saying that if plurality lynch was in play, I think:
(1) Rayn would not have been lynched
(2) JJD prob still would have been lynched
(3) Onegu wouldn't have been lynched
Thats 2 extra townies.
|
Day One
Day One of this game started out so well. The thread atmosphere was really good, several people (including one scum O.O) came out looking pretty obviously town (namely Mocsta, Cora, thrawn and scib) and overall it was a really good atmosphere to try and find scum in. There were little cat-fights like any game of wills, but frankly the beginning of D1 was like every town-player's dream. And look at how close people were to nailing the truth! Onegu caught onto Rean - so hard that Rean felt it necessary to bus sciberbia. Rayn caught onto Rean too - and Cora caught onto scib IN SPITE of scib looking pretty town.
But then the egos started flaring, as GM noted in the OP. People become enamored in their own reads and suddenly the consensus that had been reached early on (Rean suspicious) was being questioned. This was a pivotal time for the scumteam in my opinion, because this was a time for both their most scrutinized member (Rean) to lose heat and for one of their stronger members (sciberbia) to plant a seed that eventually grew into a town-on-town-fake-claim.
On November 21 2013 10:24 sciberbia wrote:Of the players that started posting since I went to bed last night, I think Onegu looks by far the worst. His actions look inconsistent with a town mindset. Pay close attention to what his reads are, and how what he chooses to post about is incongruous with his stated reads. + Show Spoiler [first post] +On November 20 2013 20:28 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:50 Rean wrote:On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
Couldn't agree more. Also, don't shit up the thread with useless spam like the LXIII game please. I tried keeping up but the amount of shit posts just trolling/making useless jokes/comments is unbearable and makes it impossible to tell low-laying scum from trolling townies. If anyone goes around posting stupid oneliners without saying anything meaningful they have my vote >.> Reans first post into the thread and it just fakes activity. He doesnt say what he agrees with and there are multiple things to agree with, does he agree with all or only some he, never actually says what points he agrees with. This is a very scummy first post. Also if mocsta didnt retract his post limit on himself I was going to call him scum, but he did and I am ok with it for now. I do want to point out he only takes it after cora points out his spam. But unlike cora I thought it was scummy, because it was a easy way to avoid conversation. The was one more post from mocsta I didnt like will find it in moment it was post 4or 5 where he gives 3 scum reads with no reason and then says half the thread hasnt posted so his reads can change. Coras case on Sciberia is terribad and scummy. Anyway rean is really scumm though. Sorry Im at the mall but when I am home I will catchup on both of my games and be up late playing. Ill be checking in periodicly while Im at the mall though. In Onegu's first post, he states pretty significant scumreads on rean and Cora, both of whom have had significant heat on them today. But he spends the majority of his actual words in his post rambling about Mocsta's post count restriction, which is so irrelevant, seeing as he dropped it. Rean and Cora are rather large issues in the thread, and given that Onegu has rather significant scumreads on them, you would expect the majority of his posts to be dedicated to them, but notice how he always seems to instead ramble on about Mocsta. + Show Spoiler [Onegu] +On November 20 2013 21:00 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:20 Mocsta wrote:
Anyways, I don't want to drown the thread so gonna take a chill pill and re-read again.
Important things for everyone to know:
As town:
- Corazon is a highly emotional player. From my experiences he doesn't give up - even though he says he will (when tunneled by scum)
- Sciberbia (as I have played with him) is a highly analytical player
- Aquanim is a straight-shooter thinker. He *abhors* trolling/spam; and is a pretty effective communicator. I take him to be a head-strong guy that *should* be injecting his thoughts into the thread without provocation
- Thrawn I don't have meta on and don't care, his thoughts align too much with mine.
The others no idea. Really? You dont know me yet? On November 20 2013 22:39 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 22:21 Mocsta wrote:
onegu
your 3 posts, I cannot comprehend the motive behind those posts - if you are town
walk me through why the items you have discussed are the most relevant items in the thread to . Umm I think you are scum with rean. Catching scum would be my motive. On November 20 2013 22:44 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 22:40 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 22:39 Onegu wrote:On November 20 2013 22:21 Mocsta wrote:
onegu
your 3 posts, I cannot comprehend the motive behind those posts - if you are town
walk me through why the items you have discussed are the most relevant items in the thread to . Umm I think you are scum with rean. Catching scum would be my motive. Well, I guess that answers my question. Is your entire scum read on Mocsta due to that business with his post limit? That and his early post about giving scum reads to like the only three people who posted. Plus his thread control doesnt seem natural, its like he saw he could do it as scum but wasnt planning on doing it but he did it anyway. Ill give more when Im back home. On November 21 2013 01:49 Onegu wrote:
Ok I am home and put my son to sleep so Im getting out my notebook rereading everything and will be back with you shortly, also I basicly agree with everything JJD has said so far minus a small bit of the cora stuff, but the rean and mocsta stuff yeah. But he took back his mospcsta scum read :/. Also I didnt read anyone being a douche to you mocsta so just stop already. On November 21 2013 03:37 Onegu wrote:
@MOCSTA
1 hes trying to be clever there is nothing to be overdone and there is no way a troll post like this can be scummy, fuck the police was already taken...
2 why cant sciberia find the repeat and calling of you obv town scummy, but your troll post null as it was the first post in the thread? You getting that it is scum-scum interaction I dont understand how you get that read from this post.
3 how is this agressive, you put a pregame post restriction, then start the game numbering your posts, seems like you are going to keep your post restriction up. Calling you out for it isnt agressive its correct when all your first few posts are trolling.
4 this is fine
5 he made a troll response how is that overcompensated? Doesnt make sense and him not thinking the same as you is a scum read?
6 the first part of this is correct that post was null, the second part you can only get so much info from the first page and alot of page one was trolling. Telling someone to keep looking isnt scummy, its not damage control.
7 How is this a scumslip, 2 different people thought you were masons, I know you kinda think they are both scum at this point, but when you drop lines about being connected with thrawn people might think you are masoned, no way this is a scumslip.
8 again not a scumslip
9 reans first post is uber scummy. It fakes agreeing with coras null post, and then says nothing and there is no way he thinks he is saying something meaningful.
10 iirc you had already said you werent masons so he says the only other option how is that townie?
12 meh ok
12b also fine
13 you do the samething later on when you talking about haveing such a good town atmospher so how can you give him scum points for this?
14 syas nothing why you post this, I dont know his meta so this poat means nothing...
15 still dont know how you are seeing scum scum intreactions here. Maybe you are just tunneled at this point. Also at this point you say you like aqua calling out rean.
16 again why post a completely null post?
17 This is fine, but you are like he agrees with me that mean hes awesome town
18 this has been talked about already, why are you so tunneled on scum-scum here doesnt make since.
19 the post is good that means the timeing is fine also, even if I am argueing with someone and I see something that needs questioned I will question it reguardless of what else is going on
20 admit to being tunneled
21 this is fine
22 tunneled
23 meh no point in continueing on with cora, him moveing on is fine and how he did it was fine.
24 really wishywashy post but also slightly dinstanceing himself from rean while giveing him a town read at the same time. I think this is really scummy from you mocsta. Your thoughts on rean is just really odd. You can tell a lot about a player's alignment by looking at what they choose to post about. It doesn't make a lot of sense for town!Onegu to be spending all his posts on Mocsta, even pulling up really old (now somewhat irrelevent) posts from Mocsta and breaking them down, when he has stated strong scumreads on Rean and Corazon, both of which he may actually be able to get lynched today. Is he even pushing a Mocsta lynch? No. He's not actively pushing for anything at all. He doesn't seem to think Mocsta is scum anymore than he thinks Rean and Cora are scum, so it looks to me like he just wanted to stay away from the Rean and Cora wagons for one reason or another, and in order to still look like he was doing something complained a lot about Mocsta. It doesn't add up. I think he could be the best lynch today.
Need to reread Aquanim, Cora, and Rean. Not sure who I want to lynch most. In the meantime I'd appreciate some other thoughts on Onegu.
What's important to note is that up to now, sciberbia has been bussing Rean and by extension looks very town to those who agree with him. But when the iron was hot (after rayn had replaced in, people were starting to think Aquanim was more suspicious than Rean) BAM. This post. Suddenly, sciberbia looked like everyone else - doubting their read on Rean and looking for other suspects. Only his is different than most peoples. MOST. Who else is looking at Onegu right now? Recently replaced, voraciously verbose rayn, and the subject of Onegu's most recent content, town-leading-to-a-fault cDgCorazon.
Scib could have posted this and nothing else and probably still survived until endgame, simply based on the sequence of events that followed this post. I mean that's a gross exaggeration, but I honestly think this post marked the turning point for the scumteam. What began as TvM Aquanim v Rean lynch became, amazingly, a rayn martyr OMGUS against Mocsta.
On November 21 2013 23:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
##Unvote:
##Vote: Mocsta
Now he's just full of shit.
Today you are gonna lynch me or Mocsta. If you lynch me then you lynch Mocsta on D2. Thanks.
If you don't lynch me or Mocsta today i will spam the thread with bullshit as long as i live like he is doing atm.
Players like rayn and Cora believe that they're in the right when they do things like this. They are not. Ever.
What happened was the pressure was on to come to a consensus lynch because of Majority…and when people started arguing with each other, things are taken out of context, exaggerations are taken to the letter and townies start talking themselves into thinking other townies are more suspicious than they are.
This is normal, and is indeed a part of the design of the game. There's nothing wrong with Majority Lynch as a mechanic, this was supposed to happen. What was not supposed to happen was people taking ownership of the lynch to the point that they believe that their target is the only right target. At that point, you can justify almost anything right?
Mafia is a team game. Townies are supposed to come together and lynch scum. Townies are on a team with each other, they just are not aware of each other. But they ARE on the LARGER team in the game. People forget that sometimes, and that's important to remember. Most of the arguments you're going to get into in a game of mafia, statistically, is going to be a with a townie.
Anyway I digress. The pressure was on and it was too much for some. Townie lynched. That's literally all I can say about D1. I don't want to get into individual arguments or who was right or wrong. The thing at least I took away from D1 was: don't be afraid to take a step back and reassess.
|
Thanks VE. That makes a lot of sense.
Appreciate the time to look through things.
Regarding stepping back and reassessing.
How do you think would have been the optimal solution for dealing with a player yelling out anything is a scum slip?
I'm actually not referring to Rayn here, I am talking in general.
In other words, any ideas what I or others could have done differently at that point in time?
|
When someone belligerently defends a bad premise, what do you usually do? You ignore and look elsewhere. You say "That's not convincing to me" and move on. Arguing with them about whether they're real or not, whatever the argument was, it's only going to hurt town atmosphere if the person is belligerent. Rayn can be belligerent. I've taken to just turning him off...at least until I explode. Not the best method, but it's how I try and keep from ruining the thread.
Like...I know the temptation to tell them how dumb it sounds, and like you I'm not referring to rayn in particular here. In general when someone points at a scumslip it's about some word choice or timing or something similarly ludicrous. But the thing you have to remember is that they HONESTLY BELIEVE it. You can't just tell an avid lottery player that their lucky numbers aren't going to hit, again.
|
11589 Posts
If you think said player could be town, tell him to calm down and then stop responding to him, and attempt to talk about ANYTHING ELSE. If you have sway of the thread, make everyone do this. Don't entertain him if all he's going to do is go on and on about insanely stupid things like scumslips.
If you think he's scum, lynch him.
Honestly, Rayn deserved to be lynched for how he played anyway so it's whatever. Analysts discussed this some, if he simply cannot cooperate with other townies, removing him from the equation is a suboptimal but also somewhat necessary play to preserve any attempt at a decent thread atmosphere.
|
The problem with rayn is he is not against doing that stuff as scum either as can be shown in heavyweight and ## mafia. So it's hard to do anything except lynch him when he gets like that. You can't ignore it since it is anti-town and he is capable of doing it as mafia.
|
On December 04 2013 11:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
The problem with rayn is he is not against doing that stuff as scum either as can be shown in heavyweight and ## mafia. So it's hard to do anything except lynch him when he gets like that. You can't ignore it since it is anti-town and he is capable of doing it as mafia. Yeha, i get that but I feel like I policy lynched Rayn because I *could*
Whereas, I wanted to policy lynch Corazon but couldnt (because we didnt have enough mislynches) and so tried to approach the situation differently.
When I debunked his case against me, I was very careful not to be spiteful etc; and I just keep thinking to myself if I forced myself to take that approach to Rayn - he may have been swayed.
All food for thought, can't change what happened but can at least grow from it.
|
So basically, how town lost that game is Rayn decided to make everyone either vote for him or his target.
Then Cora did the EXACT same thing.
|
On December 04 2013 12:04 Oatsmaster wrote:
So basically, how town lost that game is Rayn decided to make everyone either vote for him or his target.
Then Cora did the EXACT same thing.
No, that's just now the lynch went south on D1.
|
sorry a bit unrelated to the current discussion but..
On December 04 2013 02:16 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:02 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week. No, jampidampi Really? I don't recall him being on the receiving end of any vitriol? Thats a shame though. His early reads were quite good.
+1 on this. i'm really confused as to why jampi left the game.
i don't recall him being the target of any insults and it doesn't look like there are any bad mannered interactions in his filter either... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&user=jampidampi
|
Just being in that environment is off-putting. It makes people not want to play with us AS A WHOLE. Why do you think it's being decried so hard?
|
On December 04 2013 03:51 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though. Make one :D Also given suggestions in this thread I may host A Game of Shadows soon. (and working on d1 analysis tonight for this game)
Does that mean I have to play in it?
-WaveofShadow (smurf acct. cuz LoL mafia and almost 10k)
|
That's cheating Wave you shit.
|
On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
Another way to improve that hasn't been used in a while is the shadowing thread. It takes you out of the game itself but allows you to work on getting better. You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I'd suggest an increase of shadowing in particular though for those of you feeling unsure of how to play in non newbie games.
+1 This is the post I tried to write and deleted 3 attempts as it kept saying other things too.
|
Oh I should say something about Onegu I think.
In Witchcraft II, as town he claimed scum. I was furious with him and basically took a break from the game for 24h before getting shot that night.
I think I may have said something along the lines of submitting his name to the mafia awards for worst townplay, but as far as insulting things go I think that was it. I managed to hold myself back---I don't think I have ever been angrier and yet, as marv said, I know Onegu is a fucking awesome guy.
If people are getting too angry about things to keep their hatred out of the thread or can't handle playing without being dicks to each other, then it's something to think about. The problem is (and this occurs often) there are people who think oppositely and believe that it's those who CAN'T take the atmosphere that shouldn't be playing.
What kind of atmosphere is ultimately better for the game and fosters better gameplay and more players joining up is what has to be considered in the end.
|
|
|
United States7483 Posts
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
|
On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
Yeah. It saddens me to say it but at present I would not recommend this Mafia subforum to anybody.
|
Sigh, thats never good to hear.
Could help explain why sign ups seem to be reducing.
|
I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but to be fair Seuss, another newbie from recent games was also turned off by similar activity.
|
On December 04 2013 15:11 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest. Yeah. It saddens me to say it but at present I would not recommend this Mafia subforum to anybody.
that is why i stopped playing here for several months. i don't get offended by much but that's not the problem. imo the problem is...
the same problem that exists on every website based off of user generated content. that, plus:
competitive game where the objective is to be "smart"
=
an environment where people are more concerned with appearing intelligent (imo making jokes at people's expense is a subset of "appearing intelligent") than they are about actually being intelligent.
|
On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
Whitewing! I haven't seen you around in-
Well, a long time!
This goes back b4 Blazinghand folks
|
On December 04 2013 02:39 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis. Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
Roughly two years ago it was no problem jumping in big games directly out of newbies. Therefore I doubt that we solve any problems by creating a new series of games for newer but not completely new players. That would just be a workaround for the actual problem, which is that non-newbie games are full of hate and negativity.
Of course it can be intimidating playing with the more experienced players (Scum-Palmar owned my Town-ass in our first game together because I was scared from him), but at some point you just need to try to play with those players. Adding another tier of games won't help you much there, as you are essentially still playing with the same newer players you met in the newbies. I'd second Prom here that shadowing or additional coaching is a better way to close the gap between newbies and normal games.
|
And I realized I didn't say it earlier but I am very willing to be a personal coach for those of you who want such a coaching and some people in this thread can attest to the fact that I am not terrible at it.
If you want me to be your personal coach next time you are in a game send me a PM! Also send the host a PM to tell them what you are doing so we can keep the whole thing above board.
I'm also willing to stop and chat about the how-tos of mafia even when neither of us are in a game, again send me a PM and we can chat on either irc or skype. I certainly only got where I am today (which, depending on who you ask is anywhere between not-the-worst and passably decent) by approaching vets on a one-on-one basis. I spent many hours with marv, Artanis and my contemporaries, thrawn, hapa, iamperfection, and kier. I had the good fortune to come from a skilled generation of mafia players many of whom still play today.
As I tell the newbies: use your coaches. Even if you have to go out and find those coaches yourself.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
@phaggathe skill gap or the atmosphere gap?
I haven't read bttb but just some questions/thoughts: is the bad atmosphere thing a function of game size as well? Or maybe it's a function of who hosts a game (ie people playing less abrasively when I host a game because I warn people liberally for language)? An argument against the language thing would be that it's perfectly possible to have a terrible environment that uses civil language, and being unfriendly, unhelpful, and unco-operative are not in fact against the rules, nor should they be. If it's really a function of people having out of game beefs or large egos, then we have to look at a solution based on enforced shadowing, coaching, or even hydraing to try to work out the kinks in our community.
If it's an isolated event, it's an isolated event, but if it's not, it's not.
|
I wish it was a skill gap, and at one point I believe it was. Now I think there is an atmosphere gap, we're doing a bad job as a community of being a community. We're just a group of assholes.
I rather think that the problem is that there has become an endemic acceptance of the hard hardheadedness of our players (myself obviously included) which has given too much leeway for anger to direct our words instead of thinking things through. This has become more apparent with the spammy nonsense posters who came about mostly in the last two years since in the culture of spam we have less time to self filter. I think (though I have no proof of this) that a more analytic and less posty game would be more civil and more fun to participate in.
|
@BH
I dunno that a GMarshal game is the first place I'd think to look for abrasive, toxic play and comments... and yet here we are.
|
On December 04 2013 18:22 Promethelax wrote:
I wish it was a skill gap, and at one point I believe it was. Now I think there is an atmosphere gap, we're doing a bad job as a community of being a community. We're just a group of assholes.
I rather think that the problem is that there has become an endemic acceptance of the hard hardheadedness of our players (myself obviously included) which has given too much leeway for anger to direct our words instead of thinking things through. This has become more apparent with the spammy nonsense posters who came about mostly in the last two years since in the culture of spam we have less time to self filter. I think (though I have no proof of this) that a more analytic and less posty game would be more civil and more fun to participate in.
Sicilian mafia hosted by Ver was a post restriction game.
I think that also got pretty heated.
People in this community do give praise when you play well; but absolutely ridicule you to bits when it goes astray.
|
On December 04 2013 18:17 Blazinghand wrote:
@phaggathe skill gap or the atmosphere gap?
I haven't read bttb but just some questions/thoughts: is the bad atmosphere thing a function of game size as well? Or maybe it's a function of who hosts a game (ie people playing less abrasively when I host a game because I warn people liberally for language)? An argument against the language thing would be that it's perfectly possible to have a terrible environment that uses civil language, and being unfriendly, unhelpful, and unco-operative are not in fact against the rules, nor should they be. If it's really a function of people having out of game beefs or large egos, then we have to look at a solution based on enforced shadowing, coaching, or even hydraing to try to work out the kinks in our community.
If it's an isolated event, it's an isolated event, but if it's not, it's not.
The skill gap.
Of course there is also an atmosphere gap. There always was, but it used to be from friendly/serious in newbies to serious/trollish-but-still-positive in non-newbies. But nowadays you go from friendly/serious to hateful/negative. However, as I mentioned before, this is a problem that we, the players and hosts, have to solve. This can't be fixed by coaching/shadowing.
|
Honestly, I think a major part of the problem is people's compsensaty to lurk. Losing to lurkers is exceptionally frustrating. Lynching lurkers and losing because of it is exceptionally frustrating.
Yet lurking seems to be generally accepted as ok because certain specific people are allowed by hosts and players to lurk game after game after game.
|
opinions on the following?
This has been brought up before but the conversations haven't exactly reached any helpful conclusions...
Mafia is a game where a few people have wincons that must be achieved by lying and maliciously (subtly or not) influencing town atmosphere to their advantage. When a townie accuses another person of being mafia... they are accusing them of being a liar. The word "scum" implies a lot beyond "a mafia player."
I don't think there's any way around this and it's the nature of the game. When people are looking for an impostor it's pretty natural that townies might grow to hate their fellow townie when one or both of them is accusing the other. I think the only solution would be for every single town player to make efforts to only make logical posts, free of ad hominem and the like.
But maybe that makes it harder to differentiate scum and townies, when things like "this player is displaying X emotions" are no longer valid scum/town tells?
I haven't reached a single conclusion in this post because I don't think there is a conclusion that aligns with each person's preferred method of play.... so what do?
|
I think thrawn's mocking me. Whatever.
|
On December 04 2013 19:02 geript wrote:
I think thrawn's mocking me. Whatever.
I hadn't read your previous post until just now when you posted this... so no
|
I was talking referring to displaced emotions, psych stuff. Never mind.
|
United Kingdom30774 Posts
I think emotion is a good thing. To an extent. I enjoy analysis of different styles and i fear that if everyone made logical posts then the game would not be AS enjoyable as seeing everyone's unique flair and habits. Yes, they would still have them in that scenario but it is not the same at all. Emotion is what drives games forward and when people get emotionally invested they commit more time to the game and the game maintains that level of analytical fun. The problem with emotion is when people can't separate the bad emotions from the game. You need to be able to harbor the competitive and fun and logical side of your brain and if things get annoying, rude or abrasive you need to take a step back and take a break and look back on it with fresh eyes.
The only problem i see within games is the I'm right and you're wrong attitudes. Some people think they are God's gift to mafia and everything they say is gospel when they have no superior knowledge (unless they are scum) to anyone else. When people don't accept their word then arguments break out. The only way to solve this is by directly showing people their mistakes. I think a dedicated analysis team would actually be good if people could spare the time and maybe some kind of HR guy where people could pm him about a person and they could talk through things together, maintains anonymity and helps to improve the situation.
I also think voice communication is far less confrontational and abrasive than text, so maybe some arranged post game skype or ts analysis could happen in games where people can talk about the bad and the good and get things off their chest without the text ego's.
#MafiaTherapy2013
|
personally... I think I'd prefer a game completely free of emotion. that's my personal preference. but the only way for that to happen is for me to sign up with a game full of people who have similar wishes and that's not going to happen.
look at my first few posts in my first newbie game to see what I mean by my "preferred style of play" ... (ignore the terribleness and focus on my tone)
|
No offense but I'm not going to spend time to look that up right now.
|
On December 04 2013 19:20 thrawn2112 wrote:
personally... I think I'd prefer a game completely free of emotion. that's my personal preference. but the only way for that to happen is for me to sign up with a game full of people who have similar wishes and that's not going to happen.
look at my first few posts in my first newbie game to see what I mean by my "preferred style of play" ... (ignore the terribleness and focus on my tone)
I can't imagine playing a game with no emotion. Sorry bud.
Geript is right though, lurking is *so* frustrating to deal with as either alignment.. but I think that is only one facet.
I dunno the solution, but i do admit I am part of the problem - as are most people playing these days.
|
There is a distinction between showing emotion and abuse.
When the abuse extends to directly insulting the person as person, or refers to continuing outside the game, or threatens in game behaviour to make the game unfun, then at this time, if i choose to host games there is somewhere out there I will modkill for some behaviour like that.
Currently I am unwilling to host games because i wont put myself in the position of having to modkill people for behavior, and thus being stuck between allowing the behaviour to continue in my game that I will have spent my time designing so other people can have fun, and mod killing them which can if I cant replace them also damage the fun factor little or if late game damage it a lot.
I have had some thoughts about designing a new signup system whereby people
dont specify who they dont want to play (black ball WoCrowds) with
but
PM a list JUST some of those whom they do want to play with.
I am pretty sure a pattern would rapidly emerge of which people to sign up for the game so that at the end of the game the players would be happy they had played.
I have serious issues with that about cliqueness, but I think I can solve all those with some math magic. primarily, Playing in one game would make it less likely you'd be able to play in the next.
it would also I think its look like a way to get a good (less harsh) environment for people fresh out of noobs to get their feet wet.
it could also provide an incentive for people to play in way that was fun to play with, in their other games too.
At the very least it would make people aware that their chosen play style did really affect other peoples FunCon.
A carrot and stick kind of approach.
Edit: I am now up to three distinct reason I don't like my idea above. I can do it. I could play in such a set-up and it would all be good. That wasn't the problem I was trying to fix. I currently believe it would generate and encourage its own new problems.  To man with a hammer...
Things that suck.
Playing this game as town such that later games when you are scum will be easier.
While there almost must be some of that, when you do it to the detriment of your contribution to winning as town this game then that is a problem.
By any of the various methods. Lurk, post no reasoning, ...
When you are scum you play as a team. When you are town you are the only towny you know so you just play with and yourself and perhaps more importantly for yourself.
The concept on this site that people would purposefully as a vanilla towny regularly provide 'seer cover' by trying to look like a cop to attract the kill is .... funny sad funny sad. I hadn't even heard of the concept until I visited 2p2.
(apologies to the good players who do do good stuff for the team BTW.)
being so confrontational when accused that people really just cant be bothered with the grief of accusing you or even probing you. OMGUS times rabid outrage.
If you are challenged as a towny the USEFUL to town thing to do is cooperate to find out why they think you are scum and then show them you are not. Shirt fronting them into never bothering is ...
needing to look up the word altruism in the dictionary.
(edit: yeah i just read this back. and its possibly going to still be while before I think I am safe to play again.)
|
On December 04 2013 19:14 Holyflare wrote:
I also think voice communication is far less confrontational and abrasive than text, so maybe some arranged post game skype or ts analysis could happen in games where people can talk about the bad and the good and get things off their chest without the text ego's.
#MafiaTherapy2013
voice may be good if everyone has it.
anonymity of text makes everyone a hero in their own mind.
Also actual tone and inflection is missing as is the feeling in sincerity speaking.
it can also possibly devolve fast?
edit: I reread what I write before I post (in this case I also reread it the next day) voice has fewer 'take backs'.
|
On December 04 2013 18:56 geript wrote:
Honestly, I think a major part of the problem is people's compsensaty to lurk. Losing to lurkers is exceptionally frustrating. Lynching lurkers and losing because of it is exceptionally frustrating.
Yet lurking seems to be generally accepted as ok because certain specific people are allowed by hosts and players to lurk game after game after game.
I dont tell hosts how to design their games. If i don't like them i don't sign up.
I will point out that in say a standard 13 vanilla 10/3 setup.
That kinda about means, mafia kills two good townies for every one (hopefuilly playing bad today one) that gets mislynched.
What that does is it set the bar rather low for what kind of towny you need to be if you want the best chance of being alive as long as possible. (not sure why some poeple want that)
But anyway scum have more control over who survives to Lylo.
more Vigs, would (could) make a number of the strategies such as Lurking less popular.
More vigs do (should) make games town favored.
16 town two D1 vigs no docs/cops 4 scum would leave leeway for one modkill and be a real incentive not to lurk out D1.
if that doesnt work ... (not enough incentive)
16 town eight D1 vigs no docs/cops 3 scum would make my intentions clearer. Id hopefully only ever have to run that setup once. (Im probably only joking, I hope.)
I thought about more vigs for a time, but derp town tendency to go YOLO who can i shoot that if they just happen to be scum will make me hero and i will just claim YOLO or LOLs if I miss.
I had a clever Axle idea. A host could run a competition in the Obs end of D1, to guess who the vig wouldn't and shouldn't shoot. There are usually OBV, dont shoot him, targets.
If the vig shoots an obv 'dont shoot that dude' target the vig dies. (obv dont shoot targets are unaware NRA members)
I know that sounds like an outrageous thing... but it was the only way i could think for Vigs to be gently encouraged to shoot the best for town targets.
Well i could threaten the game might do that.... BTW I just did threaten any game i host may work like that.
If I am host and i give out vig I expect it to be used to enhance towns win con. is that ok?
(edit: oh yeah and the vig would be compulsive)
|
How much of a little b do you have to be to quit mafia because someone is being mean to you?
I like you Corazon.I'm not sure yet if you are a troll but you provide me with many lols.
User was warned for this post
|
On December 05 2013 01:25 OOHCHILD wrote:
How much of a little b do you have to be to quit mafia because someone is being mean to you?
I like you Corazon.I'm not sure yet if you are a troll but you provide me with many lols.
what in the world does this have to do with the discussion
|
Break down on people who actively play against their win conditions. I have noticed as someone whos played this game off and on for years that my biggest factor in how much I get angry/flip out is people who actively play against their win conditions.
That point on its own will help significantly in dealing with the hostility created in these games. Tensions are always going to be high in a game of mafia, but if you remove the acceptance of the "dont care" attitude a ton of people have and force them to care about the game and play properly the behaviour will shift. There are other things we as a community could surely do, but as someone whos played for years the biggest thing I have noticed is the shift of acceptance towards people who just troll and do shit for fun rather than try to win.
|
Actually an interesting thing i noticed, other than thrawn and scib, the players have been playing for less than a year. So is this abrasive posting and bad atmosphere something new? How did it start?
Lurkers clearly arent the problem, there have been lurkers forever.
|
United Kingdom30774 Posts
These young whipper snappers don't know what's what!
|
On December 05 2013 02:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Break down on people who actively play against their win conditions. I have noticed as someone whos played this game off and on for years that my biggest factor in how much I get angry/flip out is people who actively play against their win conditions.
That point on its own will help significantly in dealing with the hostility created in these games. Tensions are always going to be high in a game of mafia, but if you remove the acceptance of the "dont care" attitude a ton of people have and force them to care about the game and play properly the behaviour will shift. There are other things we as a community could surely do, but as someone whos played for years the biggest thing I have noticed is the shift of acceptance towards people who just troll and do shit for fun rather than try to win.
Shameless +1. I agree wholeheartedly.
|
who played against their win condition? Nobody i would say.
|
On December 04 2013 18:47 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 18:22 Promethelax wrote:
I wish it was a skill gap, and at one point I believe it was. Now I think there is an atmosphere gap, we're doing a bad job as a community of being a community. We're just a group of assholes.
I rather think that the problem is that there has become an endemic acceptance of the hard hardheadedness of our players (myself obviously included) which has given too much leeway for anger to direct our words instead of thinking things through. This has become more apparent with the spammy nonsense posters who came about mostly in the last two years since in the culture of spam we have less time to self filter. I think (though I have no proof of this) that a more analytic and less posty game would be more civil and more fun to participate in. Sicilian mafia hosted by Ver was a post restriction game. I think that also got pretty heated. People in this community do give praise when you play well; but absolutely ridicule you to bits when it goes astray.
Sicilian was a post restriction plus pms game. I don't think the post restriction idea has been adequately explored yet.
|
United States7483 Posts
On December 04 2013 16:13 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest. Whitewing! I haven't seen you around in- Well, a long time! This goes back b4 Blazinghand folks
Howdy! >_>
I've been around, just not this subforum.
Read a few games every once in a while, was just way too negative for my tastes. I didn't feel like noobing it up and getting bitched at.
|
On December 05 2013 04:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 16:13 Alakaslam wrote:On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest. Whitewing! I haven't seen you around in- Well, a long time! This goes back b4 Blazinghand folks Howdy! >_> I've been around, just not this subforum. Read a few games every once in a while, was just way too negative for my tastes. I didn't feel like noobing it up and getting bitched at.
I think you are misconstructing the rage. Besides the fact that there are newbie games, if you put in a good effort to try and solve the game, you will still be getting town credit and helping the team, even if you are wrong or have a bad case.
Don't mistake it with not trying enough and getting yelled at because you were lurking and not trying to solve the game.
|
I think GM is spot on here.
Playing games in a venomous environment is not fun. But then again it is hard to not get emotionally involved if you take the game seriously. The problem is that things escalate so quickly. Someone calls someone bad, then that someone replies with you fucking suck -> STFU retard -> please quit mafia etc etc. This is all within one game, then comes the tension that have been built up from previous games and boom you got a playergroup where many players can’t stand eachother. Is there a solution to this, other than stricter policies regarding player behavior, I think not.
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. So instead of writing: “If you believe I am scum you are either bad or scum, your arguments sucks big time and everything you write is illogical” you will have to come up with something like: “You and me probably disagree about what makes someone scum or not, I especially disagree with your argument 1, 2 and 4, because of a, b, c”. It might not be a great example, and yeah it might be a bit too much carebear but at least it doesn’t lay the groundworks for some heavy shitslinging and a poisonous environment.
Most people wouldn’t be interested in this though as it tie them down too much (it also limits the scumteam, who want to cause a bad environment), but if having a poisonous environment is a problem then testing something like this out can’t do any harm.
|
Honestly mods should just show no mercy. you get one warning/slip up post and then the second time you are gone. Even though hogwarts mafia was pretty meh in turns of gameplay, it showed how modding should be done to some degree. You can't just let the game run rampant or it is deemed acceptable. Any other part of teamliquid most of this stuff is auto-ban, let's set the same precedent here.
|
On December 05 2013 05:27 VayneAuthority wrote:
Honestly mods should just show no mercy. you get one warning/slip up post and then the second time you are gone. Even though hogwarts mafia was pretty meh in turns of gameplay, it showed how modding should be done to some degree. You can't just let the game run rampant or it is deemed acceptable. Any other part of teamliquid most of this stuff is auto-ban, let's set the same precedent here.
Pretty much this.
Mods/hosts just need to enforce behavioral rules more actively. I consider myself pretty lenient on in-thread behavior, and I would absolutely modkill players for some of the posts in this and other recent games.
We can promise "as a community" to fix attitude problems all we want, but at the end of the day, those with power need to let players know what will and will not be tolerated.
|
The problem with having stricter behavior rules is that it would result in some of the most respected players not being allowed to play. In my opinion many of those who are considered the best have the harshest styles as well. And no one wants to exclude them, but letting them play their style while the Average Joe gets modkilled and banned for it will only make the games even more unpleasant to play.
|
Another huge issue becomes that stricter rules will result in games being completely ruined due to modkills the way they are now, and no host wants to see their hard work go to waste. Now that's not to say I don't agree that stricter rules need to come into effect somehow because I do, however is there a way to prevent games being ruined (or not starting due to people not signing up for it in advance knowing those rules will be in effect)?
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I think a pretty firm warning when things look like they're going south should mostly do the trick.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
From my experience, if you're bothered by the words tone that someone uses, simply reply to the post letting them know that you are bothered by it and move on. Tell someone that you're upset or having a bad day and I think most people are decent enough to understand. If they continue, then request host intervention privately and take a break from the thread to avoid confrontation.
I don't recall ever being personally attacked in 40+ games, so if you treat others with respect, I don't think it really ever becomes an issue.
On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings.
Technically, I think that rule applies to all games already.
|
On December 05 2013 06:50 marvellosity wrote:
I think a pretty firm warning when things look like they're going south should mostly do the trick.
Yes and no, that may solve the issue at the time in that specific game, but it doesn't solve the overall wider issue.
I can name 4-5 players who have been actively discouraged from playing on TL mafia because of this kind of thing, and a warning in every game when (because it is inevitable) it happens and possible modkills does nothing.
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On December 05 2013 07:51 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 06:50 marvellosity wrote:
I think a pretty firm warning when things look like they're going south should mostly do the trick. Yes and no, that may solve the issue at the time in that specific game, but it doesn't solve the overall wider issue. I can name 4-5 players who have been actively discouraged from playing on TL mafia because of this kind of thing, and a warning in every game when (because it is inevitable) it happens and possible modkills does nothing.
Some people just aren't suited to mafia. It's adversarial, and it's not for everyone. imo the level it gets at for a first warning isn't so bad. And if that's as heated as it gets then that's fine to me.
|
On December 05 2013 07:51 kitaman27 wrote:From my experience, if you're bothered by the words tone that someone uses, simply reply to the post letting them know that you are bothered by it and move on. Tell someone that you're upset or having a bad day and I think most people are decent enough to understand. If they continue, then request host intervention privately and take a break from the thread to avoid confrontation. I don't recall ever being personally attacked in 40+ games, so if you treat others with respect, I don't think it really ever becomes an issue. Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. Technically, I think that rule applies to all games already.
Kita, that's also because you as a player have no reason to ever be the target of anyone's rage or insults. You play the game the way people expect. You also expect everyone to act rationally. Unless there is a way to actively enforce that everyone is active all the time and no one plays perceivedly against their wincons, then it's not an issue. Of course I don't really see a way that's going to happen.
|
United Kingdom30774 Posts
I think game limits should be enforced properly, day 1's etc are normally fine but when it gets close to the end and some people are in other games and more invested in there activity really starts to dwindle and the game becomes exponentially harder.
People get annoyed not only at others logic but due to the fact that people don't participate when the other person is so invested, this is partly what happened in bttb.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 05 2013 07:54 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 07:51 kitaman27 wrote:From my experience, if you're bothered by the words tone that someone uses, simply reply to the post letting them know that you are bothered by it and move on. Tell someone that you're upset or having a bad day and I think most people are decent enough to understand. If they continue, then request host intervention privately and take a break from the thread to avoid confrontation. I don't recall ever being personally attacked in 40+ games, so if you treat others with respect, I don't think it really ever becomes an issue. On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. Technically, I think that rule applies to all games already. Kita, that's also because you as a player have no reason to ever be the target of anyone's rage or insults. You play the game the way people expect.
Wave, that statement offends me! Please take it back.
Allow me to provide a list of counter-examples, which I've managed to do without ever being personally attacked:
Fake claimed that a detective contacted me to get a player lynched.
Fake claimed detective to get a player lynched.
Claimed detective at lylo, but refused to reveal my check for the first 40 hours, frusterating the other town members to the point that they voted without me in an instant majority setup.
As a compulsive town vig, shot a player that the town unanimously agreed was town not once, but twice, forcing the town roleblocker to stop me twice.
Lynched a player that I thought was town as town at LYLO (although still playing towards my win condition)
Targeted myself with kp as mafia (Again still playing towards my win condtion)
Gave a mafia scumbuddy bonus objectives to accomplish to the annoyance of another
Taunted the thread to the point where I was day vig'd three times in the same cycle
Backstabbed a third party player simply because I didn't want to work with them
Bussed a scum buddy against their wishes at LYLO
Forgotten to submit a night action
Claimed mafia to the rival mafia faction
Gone afk for extended periods of time without warning
Refused to vote with town because I was being incredibly stubborn
Threw a game away because I didn't know it was possible for third party players to exist
Fake claimed bomberman for personal amusement
Accidentally killed the same player by collateral damage two games in a row
Posted only in song lyrics multiple games
|
Jeez statement retracted I guess. I've never seen you do any of that lol.
|
On December 05 2013 08:53 Mid or Feed wrote:
Jeez statement retracted I guess. I've never seen you do any of that lol.
Yeah, lol.
In my games with Kitamin he has been the epitome of civil discourse.
|
IDK, Kita and bugs were far more into the OO/Fated lovers/3p transition than I was. I forget who supposedly did what and which versions everyone had. But I do remember thinking mid-game, like why can't we work with 3P and Bugs and Kita really shutting that shit down quick fast and in a hurry.
The real irony of it is that in PTP for he as 3p contacted me as scum to form an alliance. I still really wanted that alliance to work out but in the least recognized that we needed him as much as he needed us.
|
Since mafia is a game of intelligence and deceit, sometimes it's important to rile and provoke people. Calling someone stupid, and calling what someone does stupid are two different things.
|
On December 05 2013 08:50 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 07:54 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 05 2013 07:51 kitaman27 wrote:From my experience, if you're bothered by the words tone that someone uses, simply reply to the post letting them know that you are bothered by it and move on. Tell someone that you're upset or having a bad day and I think most people are decent enough to understand. If they continue, then request host intervention privately and take a break from the thread to avoid confrontation. I don't recall ever being personally attacked in 40+ games, so if you treat others with respect, I don't think it really ever becomes an issue. On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. Technically, I think that rule applies to all games already. Kita, that's also because you as a player have no reason to ever be the target of anyone's rage or insults. You play the game the way people expect. Wave, that statement offends me! Please take it back. Allow me to provide a list of counter-examples, which I've managed to do without ever being personally attacked: Fake claimed that a detective contacted me to get a player lynched. Fake claimed detective to get a player lynched. Claimed detective at lylo, but refused to reveal my check for the first 40 hours, frusterating the other town members to the point that they voted without me in an instant majority setup. As a compulsive town vig, shot a player that the town unanimously agreed was town not once, but twice, forcing the town roleblocker to stop me twice. Lynched a player that I thought was town as town at LYLO (although still playing towards my win condition) Targeted myself with kp as mafia (Again still playing towards my win condtion) Gave a mafia scumbuddy bonus objectives to accomplish to the annoyance of another Taunted the thread to the point where I was day vig'd three times in the same cycle Backstabbed a third party player simply because I didn't want to work with them Bussed a scum buddy against their wishes at LYLO Forgotten to submit a night action Claimed mafia to the rival mafia faction Gone afk for extended periods of time without warning Refused to vote with town because I was being incredibly stubborn Threw a game away because I didn't know it was possible for third party players to exist Fake claimed bomberman for personal amusement Accidentally killed the same player by collateral damage two games in a row
I too, am guilty of some of these, and I don't think I have made a real enemy playing mafia. I think you just have to have a certain skin to play mafia in general. Being easily offended or take what someone says to seriously probably means you should play something else.
|
On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
I think GM is spot on here.
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. So instead of writing: “If you believe I am scum you are either bad or scum, your arguments sucks big time and everything you write is illogical” you will have to come up with something like: “You and me probably disagree about what makes someone scum or not, I especially disagree with your argument 1, 2 and 4, because of a, b, c”. It might not be a great example, and yeah it might be a bit too much carebear but at least it doesn’t lay the groundworks for some heavy shitslinging and a poisonous environment.
I think you MAY only have to go this far.
“If you believe I am scum you are either playing badly or scum, your arguments sucks big time and everything you have written write is illogical”
There is one subtle distinction:
The above English contains the knowledge that the author is aware they are in game with a beginning and an end.
It is no longer about making out the other PERSON *is* bad. Intent.
+ Show Spoiler + The above to me is still as scummy Accusation, as it in no way states its basis. "OMUGUS you", would largely be its direct logical equivalent. If scum come at you with the above, asking for specific examples, or even as they claimed "everything was illogical", then you get to choose anything that was not to refute it. SHoing anything was logical shows they are guilding the lilly and exaggerating the size of their case.
Playing badly, is a state that may end. Not a claim about the nature of the person.
have written is statement about what you saw not a blanket prediction about everything that has ever or perhaps even will ever be written is bad.
HOWEVER
Dont get me wrong, your care bear approach may WELL be a better strategy.
If even in a current game you charge in guns blazing and abusive.
The scum get to fake being offended and storming off without ever answering your point.
Being polite gives them one less way out.
|
On December 05 2013 02:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Break down on people who actively play against their win conditions. I have noticed as someone whos played this game off and on for years that my biggest factor in how much I get angry/flip out is people who actively play against their win conditions.
That point on its own will help significantly in dealing with the hostility created in these games. Tensions are always going to be high in a game of mafia, but if you remove the acceptance of the "dont care" attitude a ton of people have and force them to care about the game and play properly the behaviour will shift. There are other things we as a community could surely do, but as someone whos played for years the biggest thing I have noticed is the shift of acceptance towards people who just troll and do shit for fun rather than try to win.
This resonates with a voice in my head
Hence my desire for vigs...
Another voice in my head second guesses me and asks, me just how well I can guess,
"Break down on people who actively play against their win conditions." vs Wow they really just dont have the skills I thought they do.
One skill people may actually lack, is the knowledge of HOW to play on a team. In mafia as town its harder than as scum or Real life, as town you dont know who else precisely is on your team.
Diseases that create themselves are bad. When you "my biggest factor in how much I get angry/flip out" does it help your win con? (assuming you were town which i think was implied)(Also assuming you flipped out in the game, I dont remember you flipping out anywhere so ??? However I have seen other people flip out in game, and hurt their win con so its question for them.
Your reaction is to flip out, I suspect some people peace out, IDGAF out, ....
Chickens and eggs.
but
This (the post I am replying to) resonates with a voice in my head.
|
On December 05 2013 10:31 bumatlarge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 08:50 kitaman27 wrote:On December 05 2013 07:54 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 05 2013 07:51 kitaman27 wrote:From my experience, if you're bothered by the words tone that someone uses, simply reply to the post letting them know that you are bothered by it and move on. Tell someone that you're upset or having a bad day and I think most people are decent enough to understand. If they continue, then request host intervention privately and take a break from the thread to avoid confrontation. I don't recall ever being personally attacked in 40+ games, so if you treat others with respect, I don't think it really ever becomes an issue. On December 05 2013 05:23 Tunkeg wrote:
An interesting “project” though would be to run a series of “nice-guy” mafia where the same players agrees to play a set number of games together with some predetermined rules on how to behave. For instance a rule could be: you are not allowed to call anyone dumb, stupid or bad, but will have to use some sort of diplomacy to express your feelings. Technically, I think that rule applies to all games already. Kita, that's also because you as a player have no reason to ever be the target of anyone's rage or insults. You play the game the way people expect. Wave, that statement offends me! Please take it back. Allow me to provide a list of counter-examples, which I've managed to do without ever being personally attacked: Fake claimed that a detective contacted me to get a player lynched. Fake claimed detective to get a player lynched. Claimed detective at lylo, but refused to reveal my check for the first 40 hours, frusterating the other town members to the point that they voted without me in an instant majority setup. As a compulsive town vig, shot a player that the town unanimously agreed was town not once, but twice, forcing the town roleblocker to stop me twice. Lynched a player that I thought was town as town at LYLO (although still playing towards my win condition) Targeted myself with kp as mafia (Again still playing towards my win condtion) Gave a mafia scumbuddy bonus objectives to accomplish to the annoyance of another Taunted the thread to the point where I was day vig'd three times in the same cycle Backstabbed a third party player simply because I didn't want to work with them Bussed a scum buddy against their wishes at LYLO Forgotten to submit a night action Claimed mafia to the rival mafia faction Gone afk for extended periods of time without warning Refused to vote with town because I was being incredibly stubborn Threw a game away because I didn't know it was possible for third party players to exist Fake claimed bomberman for personal amusement Accidentally killed the same player by collateral damage two games in a row I too, am guilty of some of these, and I don't think I have made a real enemy playing mafia. I think you just have to have a certain skin to play mafia in general. Being easily offended or take what someone says to seriously probably means you should play something else.
While I dont have problem with kita. (i dont remember reading those games though)
"Being easily offended or take what someone says to seriously probably means you should play something else."
Hmmm.
This one in particular. "Fake claimed bomberman for personal amusement"
indicates Kita IS (on that occasion) playing a different game+ Show Spoiler +aka: is already playing something else
+ Show Spoiler +(note if fake claiming Bomber man would be like claiming Tommy the fireman NOW would be for oats, or me claiming say Ghandi, then fake claiming for amusement that is not prejudicial to win con is just fun. At least one of those in Kitas list is distinctly anti social and destructive to MAFIA.town win con though.)(Of course if Kita is really playing say "brinkmanship 101" with his peers then its probably all good as it is playing to his brinkmanship.101 wincon. (assuming that everyone is playing ))
That may indeed be the problem I have. If the game is DO whatever you like for your own personal amusement. Shhh that stuff about win con is for namby pambies who "Being easily offended or take what someone says to seriously probably means you should play something else." because obviously they took playing the game too seriously as they are trying to win, not just be amused.
Now I wouldn't want to be offensive but i am replying to two people who are not easily offended so I was little blunt.
|
Btw Axle,
I dunno what has changed but I am finding what you write *SO* much easier to understand.
If you have tried to specifically change something - Well done.
|
On December 05 2013 02:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
Actually an interesting thing i noticed, other than thrawn and scib, the players have been playing for less than a year. So is this abrasive posting and bad atmosphere something new? How did it start?
Lurkers clearly arent the problem, there have been lurkers forever.
u wanna fite?
also i played a game in like 2010, so if it's a new phenomenon..IT WASN'T ME! mocsta started it! (just kidding of course)
|
Wow. I am flash backs to the playground
On December 05 2013 12:09 Bereft wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 02:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
Actually an interesting thing i noticed, other than thrawn and scib, the players have been playing for less than a year. So is this abrasive posting and bad atmosphere something new? How did it start?
Lurkers clearly arent the problem, there have been lurkers forever. u wanna fite? also i played a game in like 2010, so if it's a new phenomenon..IT WASN'T ME! mocsta started it! (just kidding of course)
Ok I'll bite.
bereft: U wanna fite me? <puffs chest>
Axle: Yeah! So ya wanna Fite me.... mate ? <stands loose>
bereft: Sure, I'll fite. <raises dukes>
Axle: Ok, so my mate is that big hairy dude over there. <points over there><leaves rapidly>
Not sure if that will work in USian or English. In Strine its an old joke.
|
|
|
Crucifying the joke.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2013 13:42 AxleGreaser wrote:Wow. I am flash backs to the playground Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 12:09 Bereft wrote:On December 05 2013 02:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
Actually an interesting thing i noticed, other than thrawn and scib, the players have been playing for less than a year. So is this abrasive posting and bad atmosphere something new? How did it start?
Lurkers clearly arent the problem, there have been lurkers forever. u wanna fite? also i played a game in like 2010, so if it's a new phenomenon..IT WASN'T ME! mocsta started it! (just kidding of course) Ok I'll bite. bereft: U wanna fite me? <puffs chest> Axle: Yeah! So ya wanna Fite me.... mate ? <stands loose> bereft: Sure, I'll fite. <raises dukes> Axle: Ok, so my mate is that big hairy dude over there. <points over there><leaves rapidly> Not sure if that will work in USian or English. In Strine its an old joke. yeah sorry. it didn't translate. Mate is Australian for friend. (+ some more) However in the languages cultural idiom it get tacked onto the end of everything. Waking up after night on the booze passed out on the couch, to the guy passed out in the armchair. StineSpeaker1: geez Youre Ugly. mate. (indicates hes hung over, or just general sign of friendship) StrineSpeaker2: Not half as fugly as you. mate. (indicates mutual respect for how much worse the first guy looks) (note that probably wont work in current culture or in the more refined circles, but I have associated in my time with pretty nearly very kind of Aussie there is. This is probably older school strine than Aqua) + Show Spoiler [more_strine] +Whatever you talk about, don't act the wowser as everyone tends to be given a fair go, fair dinkum, mate. And don't go acting the yobbo either.
Also, it doesn't hurt to say ta or thanks for anything done for you; you'll hear a lot of taing around, thanks is so much a part of the Aussie language.
And so, Half your luck, mate The joke above is that Axle asked if Bereft wanted to fight Axle's mate. But structured it such that matched the normal expression with random mate stuck on the end to indicate some mateship to the person(bereft) being spoken to. Err what? How can you ask someone if they want to fight you, if they are your mate. mateship has nothing to do with whether or not you currently want to punch their lights out. mateship is way deeper than that.
|
Ok I get it. I think it works in english
|
also need to realize that me = my in some dialects
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
it would be like saying "come at me bro" but then your bro is this big buff dude
|
|
|
i thought that was a classic pom joke
u musta be an east coaster axle
+ i never heard strine used before....
|
I'm going to try and be back for GMarshall's game, but to be honest I'm not sure I ever want to waste time playing mafia here again. On a routine basis 20-25% of the players that sign up get replaced and there are still mod kills for inactivity on top of that. Then there are people like Coagulation who detract from others enjoyment just to get a laugh. On top of that everyone seems more interest in shoving their epeen around than actually trying to make or evaluate arguments. If I could hand select a group of people to play with here I would be ecstatic. But because that's impossible I have to keep on dealing with these type issues and it's exceptionally unfun to try and win in those circumstances.
|
I wasnt even in this game rofl
|
Such angry
So wow
Much butthurt
User was warned for this post
|
On December 07 2013 16:59 iVLosK! wrote:
Such angry
So wow
Much butthurt
User was warned for this post
Are you serious? Not only you respond in an inappropriate way being a dick, but you even use meme to do it?
Think about it man.
|
I assume we are all waiting on GM analysis?
|
On December 07 2013 19:57 Mocsta wrote:
I assume we are all waiting on GM analysis?
I'm just here for the angry shouting.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 07 2013 19:57 Mocsta wrote:
I assume we are all waiting on GM analysis?
You guys can start without me, VE already posted some good stuff about day 1 :D
|
On December 07 2013 13:06 geript wrote:
I'm going to try and be back for GMarshall's game, but to be honest I'm not sure I ever want to waste time playing mafia here again. On a routine basis 20-25% of the players that sign up get replaced and there are still mod kills for inactivity on top of that. Then there are people like Coagulation who detract from others enjoyment just to get a laugh. On top of that everyone seems more interest in shoving their epeen around than actually trying to make or evaluate arguments. If I could hand select a group of people to play with here I would be ecstatic. But because that's impossible I have to keep on dealing with these type issues and it's exceptionally unfun to try and win in those circumstances.
What you did was absolutely unacceptable, selfish and inconsiderate towards the hosts and other players in the game. Indeed, it is worse than what you accused some players in the game of. I realize that this is the wrong place and time for this, but you are already bringing the discussion here and this really should be self-evident.
The same applies to other players who decided to randomly modkill themselves, because they couldn't get over themselves and keep their end of the bargain when they chose to join the game.
|
United States22154 Posts
On December 08 2013 03:25 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 13:06 geript wrote:
I'm going to try and be back for GMarshall's game, but to be honest I'm not sure I ever want to waste time playing mafia here again. On a routine basis 20-25% of the players that sign up get replaced and there are still mod kills for inactivity on top of that. Then there are people like Coagulation who detract from others enjoyment just to get a laugh. On top of that everyone seems more interest in shoving their epeen around than actually trying to make or evaluate arguments. If I could hand select a group of people to play with here I would be ecstatic. But because that's impossible I have to keep on dealing with these type issues and it's exceptionally unfun to try and win in those circumstances. What you did was absolutely unacceptable, selfish and inconsiderate towards the hosts and other players in the game. Indeed, it is worse than what you accused some players in the game of. I realize that this is the wrong place and time for this, but you are already bringing the discussion here and this really should be self-evident. The same applies to other players who decided to randomly modkill themselves, because they couldn't get over themselves and keep their end of the bargain when they chose to join the game.
Not in this thread. Please.
|
In my opinion, the definition of "inactivity" set by this forum should be changed.
Towns haven't been doing so well lately (at least in the games I play in). Why? I think (along with the ego problems) the biggest reason is that there are always 2-3 town players who are inactive or very lurky in every and it causes a problem. We never write off these players who only post 2-3 posts a game as town and most of the focus in the game is on them. They stick out and it's not very fun when you go after a player who hasn't been solving the game for 3 days and they flip town.
Mafia is a hard game but it is also a game where you can get town credit just for trying. You don't get called scum for being wrong in your case, you get called scum if your reasoning is very egregious or your case looks fake. So many people lurk and get called scum until they make a case that looks to townies as desperation. It would look a lot better if they were more active so their cases would be taken as contribution to the discussion and not desperation scum play for town credit. It would also help out the town more as scum would be forced to be more active.
My suggestion is that we change the minimum post limit to 5 posts/day and 3 posts/night and go back to 1 post/cycle after D3. This would allow people who are busy with life to still be able to post and at the same time allow towns to have a bit more clear and cohesive atmosphere in trying to hunt scum. Plus it would raise the quality of our games altogether.
It's frustrating to get people to post more who simply do not want to play and it's even more frustrating when they are town. Inactivity is a problem for these games and it is something that needs to be looked at. We can use I Swear 3 as a test run for this kind of policy.
|
It doesn't really help. It's not really how many posts people make during phases when it's clearly to be seen some people have no intention to play the game whatever their alignment is.
People do not know if it's day/night phase, they intentionally post only stuff that contributes nothing to the game etc.
It's not really fun to play in games like that. At least it destroys my motivation when you try to play to your win condition and someone does not give a fuck enough to know what phase it is..
|
On December 10 2013 01:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:
It doesn't really help. It's not really how many posts people make during phases when it's clearly to be seen some people have no intention to play the game whatever their alignment is.
People do not know if it's day/night phase, they intentionally post only stuff that contributes nothing to the game etc.
It's not really fun to play in games like that. At least it destroys my motivation when you try to play to your win condition and someone does not give a fuck enough to know what phase it is..
Perhaps give hosts more room to modkill/replace for inactivity? A more of a subjective count of activity than an objective one?
|
Activity is a symptom of a larger problem. Towns rely on the mods to do something about inactivity when it should be the towns taking care of inactivity. If towns will lynch inactivity the same as it would lynch someone for a scumslip, I bet fewer people would lurk on average.
|
On December 10 2013 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
Activity is a symptom of a larger problem. Towns rely on the mods to do something about inactivity when it should be the towns taking care of inactivity. If towns will lynch inactivity the same as it would lynch someone for a scumslip, I bet fewer people would lurk on average.
But it is usually townies that lurk. That's why they haven't been lynched very much.
|
It would be really hard to lynch for inactivity/people who clearly do not care.
Even people who post semi-decently (i mean like about 10 posts / phase) can be people you can clearly see they are not contributing towards any lynch. What are you going to do when there are like half of the people in game you can clearly see they do not care about who the town lynches? You already know if you lynch into them it's going to be a crapshoot and if there are at least a couple of those guys in the game the crowd will grow because "i can do that too, as i won't get lynched". Some people seem to think so even as town, unfortunately.
The problem is even if you try to incorporate that into play it will always hit town, and as in a game your goal should be to lynch scum it's kind of a lose-lose scenario that you can't solve just by lynching people who don't give a fuck. If it was just aone or two people then yes, but with the current state of the game no way that's going to work. :/
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
It's actually with this sort of issue in mind that I made LXIII with so much KP floating about.
|
On average you'll hit townies more often than you'll hit scum, at least to start.
But then, on average, the median activity in games will increase. It's not a bandaid you're trying to cover up a problem with, it's medicine to cure the problem. Medicine takes time, and you have to take it until the problem is gone.
|
Like in Witchcraft II i felt really bad for thrawn because he was doing everything to solve the game and on D2 he ended up with town where everyone lurked and one dude claimed scum. Nobody was trying to play the game besides me, thrawn, Koshi and WoS. When we killed WoS and Koshi thrawn had nearly solved the game but i had an easy time to fakeclaim a check because what are the inactives gonna do? Call me scum? I would have laughed on them based purely on activity and thrawn had really no other option than to trust me, everyone else looked like they were not trying helping the town.
I have probably never feld so bad for anyone because he played a REALLY good game, tried everything he could and got fucked by bunch of people who didn't give a fuck. That's so sad.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 10 2013 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
Activity is a symptom of a larger problem. Towns rely on the mods to do something about inactivity when it should be the towns taking care of inactivity. If towns will lynch inactivity the same as it would lynch someone for a scumslip, I bet fewer people would lurk on average.
also it would work way better since scumslips don't exist
|
On December 10 2013 02:20 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
Activity is a symptom of a larger problem. Towns rely on the mods to do something about inactivity when it should be the towns taking care of inactivity. If towns will lynch inactivity the same as it would lynch someone for a scumslip, I bet fewer people would lurk on average. also it would work way better since scumslips don't exist
Ssshhhhhh
|
11589 Posts
The easiest solution to inactivity is to be less angry and hostile towards them. If they are town, it does no good to threaten them with a lynch because that makes it even less likely that they attempt to try. You attempt to cooperate with them, interact with them, and eventually you get a better picture of their intentions for the game, and thus their alignment. Number of posts don't matter as much as the content in the posts.
For me, personally, it's much easier to just not consider them a problem unless:
1) I have strong townreads on all active players (rare)
2) They do something fishy with claims/roles/actions/votes that COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS a previously stated idea (unreliable atm because of stupid towns)
3) Something in a flipped player's filter implicates them (only reliable in IRONCLAD scenarios, such as nomination)
There are many ways to ascertain someone's alignment, and you don't necessarily need a lot of posts to do it.
|
On December 10 2013 04:21 yamato77 wrote:
The easiest solution to inactivity is to be less angry and hostile towards them. If they are town, it does no good to threaten them with a lynch because that makes it even less likely that they attempt to try. You attempt to cooperate with them, interact with them, and eventually you get a better picture of their intentions for the game, and thus their alignment. Number of posts don't matter as much as the content in the posts.
For me, personally, it's much easier to just not consider them a problem unless:
1) I have strong townreads on all active players (rare)
2) They do something fishy with claims/roles/actions/votes that COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS a previously stated idea (unreliable atm because of stupid towns)
3) Something in a flipped player's filter implicates them (only reliable in IRONCLAD scenarios, such as nomination)
There are many ways to ascertain someone's alignment, and you don't necessarily need a lot of posts to do it.
Thats great in theory,
but when I'm town and everyone is scared I *COULD* be active scum -- even though Im doing my best to progress town.
Its *FUCKING* annoying to be called scum, and then people with 1-2 posts/cycle that have no objective get to skate by.
Now, I do agree, perhaps I can improve such that I don't get lumped as scum.
But quite often, I will be a strong town read to D1/2, and then suddenly, people go, ohh mocsta is scum D3 because... just because...
I have seen the above apply to others that are active too.
Personally, I dont mind lurkers -- they are a standard part of the game.
But i hate is influential lurkers --> by this I mean, when the majority of the game is lurkers and you don't know where the vote is going.
This is *really* frustrating because for 40hrs out of 48hr everyone is arguing for nothing; as, in the last 8 hrs, all the lurkers vote fro whoever the fuck they want.
Thats when I say to myself: fuck my life, i want to quit mafia.
|
11589 Posts
Well, if that happens, that's a different story. If people aren't interacting at all and just dropping a vote, they either should be lynched or not allowed to play until they become more committed to the game.
|
It happens pretty much every large game these days.
Theres a core of between 5-8 people who are experienced/active --> active does not equate to spammer.
Then theres a hardcore group of 8-12 lurkers who barely post/interact.
And then theres replacements which is happening shit loads too.
I can understand why people don't want to play big games, I am quite put off them.
But i can also understand why people dont want to play minis.
Depending on how well ppl know each other, the entire game can be solved within 24hrs (e.g. look what happened in the first Hydra game)
Maybe 20 player gamse like the new titantic is the solution in the middle. Allowing enough leeway to push lynches on bottom-feed; and not enough ppl to scare lurkers from reading/contributing.
Lastly I think lurkers cop unfair slack for not reading.
It seems a lot of people  O* read the thread, they just don't know how to inject their thoughts into the thread.
Town needs to do a better job of identifying this type of lurker, and nurturing them in-game --> to at least establish their townieness and remove them from process of elimination.
|
11589 Posts
Well, I think big games are just too big to reliably be able to read everyone in the game anyway.
|
Re: Lurkers, I'd just like to quote this post from Adams analysis in LXIII:
The size of threads these days is becoming ridiculous. This topic has been beaten to death. I am not going to single you out. Stop posting every thought that you parse through your brains. Yes everyone will view you as townie for it, but it will reach a tipping point where people ignore your posts, even knowing you are town. You've effectively lost your power when this happens - Scum are going to ignore you when you are right, town are going to ignore you all the time.
The knock-on effect is that you are making your filter unreadable. Someone who is not quite sure on you is now less willing to do the work and open your filter. Someone who wants to use something you said to strengthen one of their cases is less likely to do so when they have to fish through 35 pages of garbage to find what they're looking for. Newer players and low volume posters are going to be less likely to start contributing because they feel drowned out or completely ignored.
For the first 3 cycles of this game we had about 8-10 players posting HUGE volume, and 20 or so players posting close to nothing because they were being drowned out. If you're throwing a fit in the obs chat about 'those fucking lurkers ruined the game MERRR!!!", stop and ask yourself if you were part of the problem. This game we had a player softclaim vigi to make another player, which he had a town read on, stop posting so damn much. That's some serious shit right there.
I write 90% of my posts in mafia in a word document first. I trim for excess words, make it as concise and as direct as I can. Then I ask myself "Does this post have a point, will that point be conveyed, will it advance my goals?" If the answer isn't an immediate yes, its a god damn no and delete the fucking post!~
I just want to make this clear to everyone: This is the very reasons why I don't play games anymore. I have never been a lurker, but if I would play nowadays, I would be one, because I would be unable to follow the game and post anything meaningful because of all the spam.
My impression is that some of the lurkers are people who actually want to play the game, but get drowned out the same way I would. Heck, in almost every game people who flip town complain that they cannot follow the game because of the size.
So all the people with high volume filters should really start asking themselves if each of those posts were really necessary. Did really each and every post have an impact on the game? Did they achieve something?
|
On December 10 2013 19:35 phagga wrote:Re: Lurkers, I'd just like to quote this post from Adams analysis in LXIII: Show nested quote +The size of threads these days is becoming ridiculous. This topic has been beaten to death. I am not going to single you out. Stop posting every thought that you parse through your brains. Yes everyone will view you as townie for it, but it will reach a tipping point where people ignore your posts, even knowing you are town. You've effectively lost your power when this happens - Scum are going to ignore you when you are right, town are going to ignore you all the time.
The knock-on effect is that you are making your filter unreadable. Someone who is not quite sure on you is now less willing to do the work and open your filter. Someone who wants to use something you said to strengthen one of their cases is less likely to do so when they have to fish through 35 pages of garbage to find what they're looking for. Newer players and low volume posters are going to be less likely to start contributing because they feel drowned out or completely ignored.
For the first 3 cycles of this game we had about 8-10 players posting HUGE volume, and 20 or so players posting close to nothing because they were being drowned out. If you're throwing a fit in the obs chat about 'those fucking lurkers ruined the game MERRR!!!", stop and ask yourself if you were part of the problem. This game we had a player softclaim vigi to make another player, which he had a town read on, stop posting so damn much. That's some serious shit right there.
I write 90% of my posts in mafia in a word document first. I trim for excess words, make it as concise and as direct as I can. Then I ask myself "Does this post have a point, will that point be conveyed, will it advance my goals?" If the answer isn't an immediate yes, its a god damn no and delete the fucking post!~
I just want to make this clear to everyone: This is the very reasons why I don't play games anymore. I have never been a lurker, but if I would play nowadays, I would be one, because I would be unable to follow the game and post anything meaningful because of all the spam. My impression is that some of the lurkers are people who actually want to play the game, but get drowned out the same way I would. Heck, in almost every game people who flip town complain that they cannot follow the game because of the size. So all the people with high volume filters should really start asking themselves if each of those posts were really necessary. Did really each and every post have an impact on the game? Did they achieve something?
I don't necessarily agree with this.
There is a huge difference between lurking and attempting to contribute. You don't have to be a spammy high-volume poster to contribute even in games with ridiculously huge filters, you may just have to contribute in a slightly different way, ie. try to join a conversation currently taking place, make a couple big posts on a few topics here and there.
I do agree that there is probably too much spam in many games, but I don't see how this necessarily precludes other people from posting. If they can't follow the thread, then they haven't been reading the game and that's their problem imo. As far as 'lurking,' I can name and differentiate every player in my current game who is actually lurking vs those who are actually attempting to contribute though not posting very much. There is a very clear difference between the two, and there are people who may complain about those not putting in 20 pages of filter per day, but those aren't the complaints that matter. There are many ways to contribute, and finding a happy medium between 20 pages/day and 1 post/48h shouldn't be particularly difficult.
Despite all this I still believe that lurking ruins some games and it has nothing to do with the spam factor; it has to do with a subset of people who join a game, partway in decide they don't feel like playing anymore, and fuck off which is unacceptable. If the REASON they fuck off is because of the spam that might be a different story, but I have not heard such a complaint yet.
|
On December 10 2013 19:48 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:35 phagga wrote:Re: Lurkers, I'd just like to quote this post from Adams analysis in LXIII: The size of threads these days is becoming ridiculous. This topic has been beaten to death. I am not going to single you out. Stop posting every thought that you parse through your brains. Yes everyone will view you as townie for it, but it will reach a tipping point where people ignore your posts, even knowing you are town. You've effectively lost your power when this happens - Scum are going to ignore you when you are right, town are going to ignore you all the time.
The knock-on effect is that you are making your filter unreadable. Someone who is not quite sure on you is now less willing to do the work and open your filter. Someone who wants to use something you said to strengthen one of their cases is less likely to do so when they have to fish through 35 pages of garbage to find what they're looking for. Newer players and low volume posters are going to be less likely to start contributing because they feel drowned out or completely ignored.
For the first 3 cycles of this game we had about 8-10 players posting HUGE volume, and 20 or so players posting close to nothing because they were being drowned out. If you're throwing a fit in the obs chat about 'those fucking lurkers ruined the game MERRR!!!", stop and ask yourself if you were part of the problem. This game we had a player softclaim vigi to make another player, which he had a town read on, stop posting so damn much. That's some serious shit right there.
I write 90% of my posts in mafia in a word document first. I trim for excess words, make it as concise and as direct as I can. Then I ask myself "Does this post have a point, will that point be conveyed, will it advance my goals?" If the answer isn't an immediate yes, its a god damn no and delete the fucking post!~
I just want to make this clear to everyone: This is the very reasons why I don't play games anymore. I have never been a lurker, but if I would play nowadays, I would be one, because I would be unable to follow the game and post anything meaningful because of all the spam. My impression is that some of the lurkers are people who actually want to play the game, but get drowned out the same way I would. Heck, in almost every game people who flip town complain that they cannot follow the game because of the size. So all the people with high volume filters should really start asking themselves if each of those posts were really necessary. Did really each and every post have an impact on the game? Did they achieve something? I don't necessarily agree with this. There is a huge difference between lurking and attempting to contribute. You don't have to be a spammy high-volume poster to contribute even in games with ridiculously huge filters, you may just have to contribute in a slightly different way, ie. try to join a conversation currently taking place, make a couple big posts on a few topics here and there. I do agree that there is probably too much spam in many games, but I don't see how this necessarily precludes other people from posting. If they can't follow the thread, then they haven't been reading the game and that's their problem imo. As far as 'lurking,' I can name and differentiate every player in my current game who is actually lurking vs those who are actually attempting to contribute though not posting very much. There is a very clear difference between the two, and there are people who may complain about those not putting in 20 pages of filter per day, but those aren't the complaints that matter. There are many ways to contribute, and finding a happy medium between 20 pages/day and 1 post/48h shouldn't be particularly difficult. Despite all this I still believe that lurking ruins some games and it has nothing to do with the spam factor; it has to do with a subset of people who join a game, partway in decide they don't feel like playing anymore, and fuck off which is unacceptable. If the REASON they fuck off is because of the spam that might be a different story, but I have not heard such a complaint yet.
To the bolded: If people spam 50 pages in 24 hours I will not be able to read this. If you think that 50 pages in 24 hours is fine, then you will exclude me from games here, because I will not be able to follow the thread. How can I make a meaningful statement about the game when I've missed half the posts that happened?
Of course there are other lurkers, people who are actually not contributing, who are not even trying, and they are a problem. But I think that the spam is creating more lurkers, because some people will just be turned off be the amount of (mostly useless) posts brought into the thread.
And I'm pretty sure that people have stopped caring midway about a game because of the volume, and voiced this in the thread.
|
On December 10 2013 20:00 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:48 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 10 2013 19:35 phagga wrote:Re: Lurkers, I'd just like to quote this post from Adams analysis in LXIII: The size of threads these days is becoming ridiculous. This topic has been beaten to death. I am not going to single you out. Stop posting every thought that you parse through your brains. Yes everyone will view you as townie for it, but it will reach a tipping point where people ignore your posts, even knowing you are town. You've effectively lost your power when this happens - Scum are going to ignore you when you are right, town are going to ignore you all the time.
The knock-on effect is that you are making your filter unreadable. Someone who is not quite sure on you is now less willing to do the work and open your filter. Someone who wants to use something you said to strengthen one of their cases is less likely to do so when they have to fish through 35 pages of garbage to find what they're looking for. Newer players and low volume posters are going to be less likely to start contributing because they feel drowned out or completely ignored.
For the first 3 cycles of this game we had about 8-10 players posting HUGE volume, and 20 or so players posting close to nothing because they were being drowned out. If you're throwing a fit in the obs chat about 'those fucking lurkers ruined the game MERRR!!!", stop and ask yourself if you were part of the problem. This game we had a player softclaim vigi to make another player, which he had a town read on, stop posting so damn much. That's some serious shit right there.
I write 90% of my posts in mafia in a word document first. I trim for excess words, make it as concise and as direct as I can. Then I ask myself "Does this post have a point, will that point be conveyed, will it advance my goals?" If the answer isn't an immediate yes, its a god damn no and delete the fucking post!~
I just want to make this clear to everyone: This is the very reasons why I don't play games anymore. I have never been a lurker, but if I would play nowadays, I would be one, because I would be unable to follow the game and post anything meaningful because of all the spam. My impression is that some of the lurkers are people who actually want to play the game, but get drowned out the same way I would. Heck, in almost every game people who flip town complain that they cannot follow the game because of the size. So all the people with high volume filters should really start asking themselves if each of those posts were really necessary. Did really each and every post have an impact on the game? Did they achieve something? I don't necessarily agree with this. There is a huge difference between lurking and attempting to contribute. You don't have to be a spammy high-volume poster to contribute even in games with ridiculously huge filters, you may just have to contribute in a slightly different way, ie. try to join a conversation currently taking place, make a couple big posts on a few topics here and there. I do agree that there is probably too much spam in many games, but I don't see how this necessarily precludes other people from posting. If they can't follow the thread, then they haven't been reading the game and that's their problem imo. As far as 'lurking,' I can name and differentiate every player in my current game who is actually lurking vs those who are actually attempting to contribute though not posting very much. There is a very clear difference between the two, and there are people who may complain about those not putting in 20 pages of filter per day, but those aren't the complaints that matter. There are many ways to contribute, and finding a happy medium between 20 pages/day and 1 post/48h shouldn't be particularly difficult. Despite all this I still believe that lurking ruins some games and it has nothing to do with the spam factor; it has to do with a subset of people who join a game, partway in decide they don't feel like playing anymore, and fuck off which is unacceptable. If the REASON they fuck off is because of the spam that might be a different story, but I have not heard such a complaint yet. To the bolded: If people spam 50 pages in 24 hours I will not be able to read this. If you think that 50 pages in 24 hours is fine, then you will exclude me from games here, because I will not be able to follow the thread. How can I make a meaningful statement about the game when I've missed half the posts that happened? Of course there are other lurkers, people who are actually not contributing, who are not even trying, and they are a problem. But I think that the spam is creating more lurkers, because some people will just be turned off be the amount of (mostly useless) posts brought into the thread. And I'm pretty sure that people have stopped caring midway about a game because of the volume, and voiced this in the thread.
Again fairly sure this is not the case but I'll leave that for my postgame and don't wish to discuss an ongoing game.
Whether or not 50 pages in 24 hours is fine or not, effort can still be made. Personally I would find 50 pages in 24 annoying to catch up with, but doable. I'd skim. I'd understand if there are people who cannot do so however and have seen people at least attempt to take steps to try and contribute if that isn't possible. Reading the last 10 pages for example, or asking for TL;DRs either in thread or scum QTs. If you actually care about the outcome of a game one way or another, you can always find a way to actually play it.
Essentially, I think that trying to equivocate any perceived issues with TL Mafia in its current form to its current 'meta' of spammy threads is a little bit silly, and there are larger problems at hand. Forcing people not to spam to participate is silly because at least those people are actually playing, and not breaking any rules, or even any rules in spirit. It means they actually enjoy the game played here. I feel bad for those people who are turned off because of it, but I see absolutely nothing objectively wrong with the playstyle, nor do I find it a detriment to TL Mafia as a whole.
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I'm able to play a decent amount at work, but even so I often miss 10-20 pages, and that takes me quite a long time to read and process. Of course you can skim, but then you're also not really taking in what you're reading anyway, and then I'm not sure if your contributions are contributions anymore.
I think phagga's (and similar) complaint is legit, and actually it sucks if players like phagga don't sign up for games because of this. To an extent though, people just post much more these days. I spammed in ##, but outside of this I've played in several games in the last few months where I've posted *a lot*, but generally it's been useful content. That's just how I play :/
For me it comes down to what BC posted earlier in the thread; the people who sign up and use whatever time they have not to play the game, but to fuck about. I find that extraordinarily selfish.
|
11589 Posts
I'll say it now, I would not read a thread at all if I had to miss playing for ~1 day and came back to 50 pages. It's just not fun, because most of it is shit. And I don't just not play games, either.
Also, just by looking at the sheer amount of posts in an ongoing game, I can tell you I would HATE to be in it.
|
Yeah, I'm gonna have to second (or third or fourth) the notion that spam and how much people post is a problem. It's pretty much why I don't sign up. I don't have a lot of time to play to begin with and especially nowadays I definitely won't have time to play because I feel I need to read all posts more than once to have some idea of what's happening. The biggest games I played in were, parallel worlds (18 people), themed game (17 people), and PTP IV (16 people) and those games only had 120 pages, 100 pages, and 180 pages, respectively. I was fine with all of those games. I had extra time to play PTP IV, so that's why I could handle the extra posts. For an extreme example, I pretty much got outed by spam in Mario Mini as scum because the game was ridiculously spammy (not on the level of some recent minis mind you, but back then it was a lot) and I had a lot less time than I thought to play the game. For me to brave this level of posting, it will have to be for a game I really want to play in.
Personally, of all the games that I hosted or cohosted, I would not have been able to handle the activity of any of them except for Doctor Who (that game was extraordinarily concise compared to games now). I have skimmed all the posts in Aperture Mafia 2: Episode 2 and ##, but that doesn't take too much work because I knew all the players roles and alignments and just needed to sorta follow along to give some general thoughts about the game afterwards.
Honestly, this whole issue is troubling me because I'm not sure if my next themed game will work. It's probably going to need 30ish players and require a lot of thought from the players and spam will be especially detrimental to the game for certain reasons I will keep secret for now. Honestly, I'm debating having an approximate post restriction for everyone that is mostly based on content opposed to just # of posts. Like my idea is that everyone has X posts each cycle, but you can exceed this if you pm and I see that you are contributing and not just spamming. I want my games to be accessible to all types of players and not just the ones that have 8 hours a day to play like it seems some players do.
Edit: I somehow forgot (probably intentionally like everyone who played in it) about personality 2 which was 26 people and 230 pages lol. I tried to make time for that game, but that game as a whole didn't turn out too well, and I was completely lost that game lol.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
One idea that I considered for a future game was to use post counts as a resource. Players would be allow to spam the thread, but if they did so it would come at the expense of your voting power or ability.
For example, each player's vote would count for 3 each cycle, but if they exceeded X amount of posts it would count for 2, Y amount of posts it could count for 1, and Z amount of posts they would be roleblocked/have a less effective night action. This would force them to decide if the benefit of seeking additional information via posts in the thread would be worth the trade off of being less influential to decide the lynch.
|
United States3756 Posts
Silent nights should be brought back. Gives everyone a break, and time to simmer down from ERMAGERD HE WAS TOWN DAAAAFAAAAQ. also allows people to prepare posts for the day.
only downside for towns is the ability to claim during the night, but thats just cheap anyway imo.
Want to cut down spam? cut out night phase posting which is mostly spam about if x dies then this or if x flips town we know this speculation BS.
|
On December 11 2013 01:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Silent nights should be brought back. Gives everyone a break, and time to simmer down from ERMAGERD HE WAS TOWN DAAAAFAAAAQ. also allows people to prepare posts for the day.
only downside for towns is the ability to claim during the night, but thats just cheap anyway imo.
Want to cut down spam? cut out night phase posting which is mostly spam about if x dies then this or if x flips town we know this speculation BS.
i could support this.
I liked in game of thrones when after a lynch you could only pm your housemates. It was like having a break which was nice.
|
If you had someone to PM to.
Well it was quite funny to PM with Risen where each one of us was bullshitting each other to the fullest. ^^
|
Hmmmm. The thing I don't like about silent nights is that it doesn't give people a chance to post updated reads based on what happens with the lynch. I know that I play much better after seeing flips and having solid evidence. I personally think my day 1 is garbage and something I need to work on because of that reason. If I didn't get a chance to update my reads based on a lynch flip before being nk, I wouldn't like that. Maybe that's only because I haven't played with silent nights before, though.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
1 post nights would also be an option
|
United States3756 Posts
On December 11 2013 01:50 kitaman27 wrote:
1 post nights would also be an option
I disagree with this, mainly because mafia would use it to direct their roleblocks. Someone waiting until the last minute to post their 1 post? Must be claiming blue. It would probably lead to everyone posting right before the deadline to avoid this, I'd like the Silent Night mechanic to be implemented because I feel night posts are, in generally, just bad. It keeps the games posts constantly relevant (I.E., someone is going to always be lynched in the cycle this person in posting) and gives people a break, reduces spam. People say silent nights are mafia-favored, but often times people softclaim their vig-shots, cop checks, doc saves,etc and end up helping the mafia. Night-time posts are just big wifom bombs that neither town nor mafia wants to deal with imo.
If we would like to keep the "Claiming during resolution phase" tactic, players could submit to the host a Will that would be posted with the Day post, regardless of who dies/gets roleblocked. That way the player outs themselves, even if they don't die and decide against claiming.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I like silent nights, and they'd work even better in conjunction with IML and a policy to lynch spammers
|
On December 11 2013 02:14 Blazinghand wrote:
I like silent nights, and they'd work even better in conjunction with IML and a policy to lynch spammers
If policy lynches actually worked, then lurking wouldn't be a problem.
I REALLY miss IML though.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Fear not! Extractor Trick Mini Mafia will be IML
policy lynches are hard to use on lurkers cause you can't pressure someone with a policy lynch unless they are in fact aware there is a lynch taking place. spammers usually know what's going on
|
Hmmmmm. I will have to think about silent nights for my game. That might work. If I do go with silent nights, I'll probably include the will portion if someone dies at night because I like being able to still post thoughts "before" the nk.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I would not include any such "last will" rule in my silent night games, though I see why they'd be attractive. Since I usually only run silent night in IML games it's not like town doesn't already have a systematic advantage. I feel comfortable taking away the last will in that situation. I also think the whole idea of posting last-second reads before the flip is kind of janky anyways. I strongly prefer the last hour of the night to either be "you can change your actions but can't post" or "you can post but can't change your actions"-- either way gets rid of the insanity of trying to post as close as possible to the day post.
|
Well I always do the the latter for nights: non-silent 1 hour action resolution period. Do you think wills have any place in normal majority or plurality games, though? I've never used them, or have played in a game with them, or even read a game with them, so I have no idea how they work in practice.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I personally don't like wills as a matter of style. I think a VT in a normal game should be able to play the game to the fullest just by posting in the thread, unless he gets masoned or something. havine to be like pming hosts and updating your will seems kinda lame. That being said, if you're running Silent Nights without using IML to give town extra time to write posts during the day, then you may want to do it. I personally would like last wills better in a game with mechanics based around "when I die, X happens" and lots of kp to make cool things happen.
In any case if you really want to make nights more quiet but want to leave in last wills, probably the easist solution is the night is silent for 23 hours and in the last hour, people can't change their night actions any more, but CAN talk.
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I hate silent nights, for the large reason that it leaves me unable to comment on a flip and what it means before my fairly likely upcoming death.
If people seriously wanted to try it, then
In any case if you really want to make nights more quiet but want to leave in last wills, probably the easist solution is the night is silent for 23 hours and in the last hour, people can't change their night actions any more, but CAN talk.
this looks like a reasonable sort of compromise.
I just get itchy when I can't post :p
|
On December 11 2013 01:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Silent nights should be brought back. Gives everyone a break, and time to simmer down from ERMAGERD HE WAS TOWN DAAAAFAAAAQ. also allows people to prepare posts for the day.
only downside for towns is the ability to claim during the night, but thats just cheap anyway imo.
Want to cut down spam? cut out night phase posting which is mostly spam about if x dies then this or if x flips town we know this speculation BS.
That is pleasant, I have game setup I am working on where there would be 12 hours of OMG he was town.
(straight after the lynch)
Then 12 hours of silence. (12+12) not (23+1)
As that second 12 hours is the 12 before normal deadline that silence is on the spammy part of the thread. That IMO has the least in it.
(Its flavor related dont ask, but I thought it might have some upsides I hadnt thought of this aspect.)
(I was hoping that some chill time might take some edgyness off some players. The other hot topic.)
|
On December 11 2013 02:52 marvellosity wrote:I hate silent nights, for the large reason that it leaves me unable to comment on a flip and what it means before my fairly likely upcoming death. If people seriously wanted to try it, then Show nested quote +In any case if you really want to make nights more quiet but want to leave in last wills, probably the easist solution is the night is silent for 23 hours and in the last hour, people can't change their night actions any more, but CAN talk. this looks like a reasonable sort of compromise. I just get itchy when I can't post :p
need that mafia fix?
|
Just make people play for their wincon once again.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again.
hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here
|
On December 11 2013 03:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here
I am just repeating what BC said, because the discussion drifted on the spam topic, while you can't beat spam in any meaningful way besides making people to play how they should, instead of introducing arbitrary rules.
|
On December 11 2013 02:31 Blazinghand wrote:
I would not include any such "last will" rule in my silent night games, though I see why they'd be attractive. Since I usually only run silent night in IML games it's not like town doesn't already have a systematic advantage. I feel comfortable taking away the last will in that situation. I also think the whole idea of posting last-second reads before the flip is kind of janky anyways. I strongly prefer the last hour of the night to either be "you can change your actions but can't post" or "you can post but can't change your actions"-- either way gets rid of the insanity of trying to post as close as possible to the day post.
I have an implicit dislike of game rules that result in "trying to post as close as possible to the day post."
which then mean anyone who hash the capability to rearrange the RL around the game gets yet more advantage.
needing to turn up for lynch deadlines is unavoidable.
Removing the need to make last minute reads posts halves the number of deadlines where RL must get out of the way of must be in the thread at deadline.
So i am with these "I strongly prefer the last hour of the night to either be "you can change your actions but can't post" or "you can post but can't change your actions"-- either way"
The recent (second) champs game which on the final day required all the scum team to be in thread and all make their vote in the last final minute just in case the seemingly AFK townies were actually actively lurking... or whatever it was that made the scum team have to goto such mechanical (and un mafia like) lengths to get the result.
For me mafia is about the game, not can you arrange to be there to drop your post in the last minute or so of the day.
(23+1) helps that a fair bit.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I mean obviously I can't control the setup of a game unless I'm the host, but I'll just say that like people spamming or lurking or whatever is not even close to the worst "against wincon" or "bad" play I have to personally deal with. I have the unique fortune of being the shenanigan king so I can do what I want and always catch scum but I understand that not everyone is on my level hue hue hue
seriously though i'll consider some kind of semi nightless thing for extractor trick mini and see how it works
|
On December 11 2013 03:09 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:06 Blazinghand wrote:On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here I am just repeating what BC said, because the discussion drifted on the spam topic, while you can't beat spam in any meaningful way besides making people to play how they should, instead of introducing arbitrary rules.
And how exactly do you 'make' people play how they should?
|
On December 11 2013 03:34 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:09 Kurumi wrote:On December 11 2013 03:06 Blazinghand wrote:On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here I am just repeating what BC said, because the discussion drifted on the spam topic, while you can't beat spam in any meaningful way besides making people to play how they should, instead of introducing arbitrary rules. And how exactly do you 'make' people play how they should?
Anyone caught actively playing against their win con is auto modkilled / banned. Obviously this is going to be subjective to the mods but seriously. Watching people go into a game and troll to shit while not posting anything meaningful is insanely frustrating.
This is coming from a guy who has watched players make justifications that townies are allowed to be "anti town". If anyone in the town is repeatedly "anti town" or however people want to justify it they die. A town members job is to get scum lynched and make it obvious that they are town and thus shouldnt be lynched. People if they join a game should be trying. There are other people who might or would have made better use of your slot if all your going to do is lurk. Don't have the time required to play in a game? don't join.
Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions.
|
On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:34 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 11 2013 03:09 Kurumi wrote:On December 11 2013 03:06 Blazinghand wrote:On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here I am just repeating what BC said, because the discussion drifted on the spam topic, while you can't beat spam in any meaningful way besides making people to play how they should, instead of introducing arbitrary rules. And how exactly do you 'make' people play how they should? Anyone caught actively playing against their win con is auto modkilled / banned. Obviously this is going to be subjective to the mods but seriously. Watching people go into a game and troll to shit while not posting anything meaningful is insanely frustrating. This is coming from a guy who has watched players make justifications that townies are allowed to be "anti town". If anyone in the town is repeatedly "anti town" or however people want to justify it they die. A town members job is to get scum lynched and make it obvious that they are town and thus shouldnt be lynched. People if they join a game should be trying. There are other people who might or would have made better use of your slot if all your going to do is lurk. Don't have the time required to play in a game? don't join. Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions.
This is probably the sentiment I can get most behind. Problem is unless there is some guideline or new ruleset laid down, that's all going to be very subjective and some people are going to find themselves modkilled in certain games and not in others. It's part of the reason hosts in general are so lax towards what they let slide in the first place---it's very hard to lay down the law when a lesser precedent has been set and you have to fight/argue with people every time you make a call.
Can we have some sort of extraneous 'signup list' for people who acknowledge that they will always try when playing a game and always play towards their wincons? I mean....I could probably make such a list myself after playing with almost everyone here, but then of course you run into the inability to fill games....
I'm only half serious about the above.
|
On December 11 2013 05:10 Mid or Feed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On December 11 2013 03:34 Mid or Feed wrote:On December 11 2013 03:09 Kurumi wrote:On December 11 2013 03:06 Blazinghand wrote:On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. hey, hey, settle down buddy, let's not get too crazy with these new ideas here I am just repeating what BC said, because the discussion drifted on the spam topic, while you can't beat spam in any meaningful way besides making people to play how they should, instead of introducing arbitrary rules. And how exactly do you 'make' people play how they should? Anyone caught actively playing against their win con is auto modkilled / banned. Obviously this is going to be subjective to the mods but seriously. Watching people go into a game and troll to shit while not posting anything meaningful is insanely frustrating. This is coming from a guy who has watched players make justifications that townies are allowed to be "anti town". If anyone in the town is repeatedly "anti town" or however people want to justify it they die. A town members job is to get scum lynched and make it obvious that they are town and thus shouldnt be lynched. People if they join a game should be trying. There are other people who might or would have made better use of your slot if all your going to do is lurk. Don't have the time required to play in a game? don't join. Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions. This is probably the sentiment I can get most behind. Problem is unless there is some guideline or new ruleset laid down, that's all going to be very subjective and some people are going to find themselves modkilled in certain games and not in others. It's part of the reason hosts in general are so lax towards what they let slide in the first place---it's very hard to lay down the law when a lesser precedent has been set and you have to fight/argue with people every time you make a call. Can we have some sort of extraneous 'signup list' for people who acknowledge that they will always try when playing a game and always play towards their wincons? I mean....I could probably make such a list myself after playing with almost everyone here, but then of course you run into the inability to fill games.... I'm only half serious about the above.
The only thing I can see is each host giving a very accurate writeup in each of their own OP's of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour in terms of playing. I know that as a host I am very lenient on spamming and likely one of the worst hosts for allowing people to be douchebags to eachother provided it can be justified within the confines of the game, however I would argue I would be one of the worst now on forcing people to play to win con. If hosts just set down what the rule of law is in their own games or if a group of hosts who are all held in decent regard come together to pull out a reasonable set of rules all games can follow that could work.
|
On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again.
I don't think you have a leg to stand on there kuru.
|
I haven't played DOTA in a long time but "Mid or Feed" is such a good name hahaha
|
On December 11 2013 07:38 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. I don't think you have a leg to stand on there kuru.
Yeah, sadly, despite my playstyle I have always tried to solve the game. Did I make meaningless posts? Yes I did. Did I tunnel people? Yes, I did. Did I care about the games I were in? Abso-fucking-lutely, wouldn't flip on Bugs or Layabout if I did not care. I worked on my playstyle as seen in my smurf game as The Milkman, where I was shot by a scum dayvig day two. I am not the best mafia player ever, hell I think my scum game is awful and I should be shamed for it everytime someone comes up with a filter of that.
|
On December 11 2013 09:41 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 07:38 Promethelax wrote:On December 11 2013 03:02 Kurumi wrote:
Just make people play for their wincon once again. I don't think you have a leg to stand on there kuru. Yeah, sadly, despite my playstyle I have always tried to solve the game. Did I make meaningless posts? Yes I did. Did I tunnel people? Yes, I did. Did I care about the games I were in? Abso-fucking-lutely, wouldn't flip on Bugs or Layabout if I did not care. I worked on my playstyle as seen in my smurf game as The Milkman, where I was shot by a scum dayvig day two. I am not the best mafia player ever, hell I think my scum game is awful and I should be shamed for it everytime someone comes up with a filter of that.
And yet....
|
On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions.
But it says in almost every OP you have to read the WHOLE thread.
In actuality there is no problem with current games. This thread is just a giant ineffectual circle jerk, which is fine.
Here's how I would do it if I were hosting. first time someone does something I deem inappropriate, they get a warning. second time, they get a modkill. What is so hard about that??
|
On December 16 2013 23:21 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions. But it says in almost every OP you have to read the WHOLE thread. In actuality there is no problem with current games. This thread is just a giant ineffectual circle jerk, which is fine. Here's how I would do it if I were hosting. first time someone does something I deem inappropriate, they get a warning. second time, they get a modkill. What is so hard about that??
I dunno about you but if I did that I'd be handing out a whole lot of modkills - which is hardly good for the game.
|
On December 16 2013 23:24 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:21 kushm4sta wrote:On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions. But it says in almost every OP you have to read the WHOLE thread. In actuality there is no problem with current games. This thread is just a giant ineffectual circle jerk, which is fine. Here's how I would do it if I were hosting. first time someone does something I deem inappropriate, they get a warning. second time, they get a modkill. What is so hard about that?? I dunno about you but if I did that I'd be handing out a whole lot of modkills - which is hardly good for the game.
your game might get ruined, but all those people who were modkilled will have to sit out 1 game, so that will teach them manners and the future games will be better.
|
On December 16 2013 23:44 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:24 Aquanim wrote:On December 16 2013 23:21 kushm4sta wrote:On December 11 2013 05:01 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Seriously, spam isn't that much of an issue. Even skimming a thread you can spot posts that feel wrong and you can filter the player. Its incredibly easy to still play a game with a ton of spam. Is it frustrating to do? Yes, but its doable. No one wants to play with people who don't play to their win conditions. But it says in almost every OP you have to read the WHOLE thread. In actuality there is no problem with current games. This thread is just a giant ineffectual circle jerk, which is fine. Here's how I would do it if I were hosting. first time someone does something I deem inappropriate, they get a warning. second time, they get a modkill. What is so hard about that?? I dunno about you but if I did that I'd be handing out a whole lot of modkills - which is hardly good for the game. your game might get ruined, but all those people who were modkilled will have to sit out 1 game, so that will teach them manners and the future games will be better.
Yes, but what happens when the entire forum has sat out.
How do games progress, tr0lolololol0
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-USWsrkP_VJg/UT0cPbTj5lI/AAAAAAAEIfs/uVMxTkj9MY8/s1600/mafia-auto-tag.jpg)
