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Civility Please |
sorry a bit unrelated to the current discussion but..
On December 04 2013 02:16 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:02 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week. No, jampidampi Really? I don't recall him being on the receiving end of any vitriol? Thats a shame though. His early reads were quite good.
+1 on this. i'm really confused as to why jampi left the game.
i don't recall him being the target of any insults and it doesn't look like there are any bad mannered interactions in his filter either... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&user=jampidampi
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Just being in that environment is off-putting. It makes people not want to play with us AS A WHOLE. Why do you think it's being decried so hard?
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On December 04 2013 03:51 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:51 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:45 ObviousOne wrote:On December 04 2013 03:40 LoneMeow wrote:On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I thought pretty much all non-newbie games say coaching is not allowed? Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the rules. Also, if that is in fact allowed, it would be very much appreciated if there was a place to seek coaching instead of just randomly PMing people (because I can not do that). None are provided, but there are no rules against getting your own coach. I think everyone has a QT with Marv for banter / questions / life coaching because Marv is just marvelous. Okay, I interpreted the usual "there are no coaches" as "coaches are not allowed". I'd still prefer if there was a thread where people who wouldn't mind coaching would make themselves available, though. Make one :D Also given suggestions in this thread I may host A Game of Shadows soon. (and working on d1 analysis tonight for this game)
Does that mean I have to play in it?
-WaveofShadow (smurf acct. cuz LoL mafia and almost 10k)
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That's cheating Wave you shit.
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On December 04 2013 03:34 Promethelax wrote:
Another way to improve that hasn't been used in a while is the shadowing thread. It takes you out of the game itself but allows you to work on getting better. You can also approach someone for personal coaching in your non newbie games, many vets have someone they tend to turn to when thinking things through.
I'd suggest an increase of shadowing in particular though for those of you feeling unsure of how to play in non newbie games.
+1 This is the post I tried to write and deleted 3 attempts as it kept saying other things too.
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Oh I should say something about Onegu I think.
In Witchcraft II, as town he claimed scum. I was furious with him and basically took a break from the game for 24h before getting shot that night.
I think I may have said something along the lines of submitting his name to the mafia awards for worst townplay, but as far as insulting things go I think that was it. I managed to hold myself back---I don't think I have ever been angrier and yet, as marv said, I know Onegu is a fucking awesome guy.
If people are getting too angry about things to keep their hatred out of the thread or can't handle playing without being dicks to each other, then it's something to think about. The problem is (and this occurs often) there are people who think oppositely and believe that it's those who CAN'T take the atmosphere that shouldn't be playing.
What kind of atmosphere is ultimately better for the game and fosters better gameplay and more players joining up is what has to be considered in the end.
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United States7483 Posts
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
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On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
Yeah. It saddens me to say it but at present I would not recommend this Mafia subforum to anybody.
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Sigh, thats never good to hear.
Could help explain why sign ups seem to be reducing.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but to be fair Seuss, another newbie from recent games was also turned off by similar activity.
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On December 04 2013 15:11 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest. Yeah. It saddens me to say it but at present I would not recommend this Mafia subforum to anybody.
that is why i stopped playing here for several months. i don't get offended by much but that's not the problem. imo the problem is...
the same problem that exists on every website based off of user generated content. that, plus:
competitive game where the objective is to be "smart"
=
an environment where people are more concerned with appearing intelligent (imo making jokes at people's expense is a subset of "appearing intelligent") than they are about actually being intelligent.
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On December 04 2013 15:05 Whitewing wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I had a lot of fun with a newbie Mafia game over on TL+ while I had a subscription, and was seriously considering playing here in general, but after seeing a lot of negativity and hate amongst a bunch of different games I lost a lot of interest.
Whitewing! I haven't seen you around in-
Well, a long time!
This goes back b4 Blazinghand folks
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On December 04 2013 02:39 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis. Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
Roughly two years ago it was no problem jumping in big games directly out of newbies. Therefore I doubt that we solve any problems by creating a new series of games for newer but not completely new players. That would just be a workaround for the actual problem, which is that non-newbie games are full of hate and negativity.
Of course it can be intimidating playing with the more experienced players (Scum-Palmar owned my Town-ass in our first game together because I was scared from him), but at some point you just need to try to play with those players. Adding another tier of games won't help you much there, as you are essentially still playing with the same newer players you met in the newbies. I'd second Prom here that shadowing or additional coaching is a better way to close the gap between newbies and normal games.
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And I realized I didn't say it earlier but I am very willing to be a personal coach for those of you who want such a coaching and some people in this thread can attest to the fact that I am not terrible at it.
If you want me to be your personal coach next time you are in a game send me a PM! Also send the host a PM to tell them what you are doing so we can keep the whole thing above board.
I'm also willing to stop and chat about the how-tos of mafia even when neither of us are in a game, again send me a PM and we can chat on either irc or skype. I certainly only got where I am today (which, depending on who you ask is anywhere between not-the-worst and passably decent) by approaching vets on a one-on-one basis. I spent many hours with marv, Artanis and my contemporaries, thrawn, hapa, iamperfection, and kier. I had the good fortune to come from a skilled generation of mafia players many of whom still play today.
As I tell the newbies: use your coaches. Even if you have to go out and find those coaches yourself.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
@phaggathe skill gap or the atmosphere gap?
I haven't read bttb but just some questions/thoughts: is the bad atmosphere thing a function of game size as well? Or maybe it's a function of who hosts a game (ie people playing less abrasively when I host a game because I warn people liberally for language)? An argument against the language thing would be that it's perfectly possible to have a terrible environment that uses civil language, and being unfriendly, unhelpful, and unco-operative are not in fact against the rules, nor should they be. If it's really a function of people having out of game beefs or large egos, then we have to look at a solution based on enforced shadowing, coaching, or even hydraing to try to work out the kinks in our community.
If it's an isolated event, it's an isolated event, but if it's not, it's not.
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I wish it was a skill gap, and at one point I believe it was. Now I think there is an atmosphere gap, we're doing a bad job as a community of being a community. We're just a group of assholes.
I rather think that the problem is that there has become an endemic acceptance of the hard hardheadedness of our players (myself obviously included) which has given too much leeway for anger to direct our words instead of thinking things through. This has become more apparent with the spammy nonsense posters who came about mostly in the last two years since in the culture of spam we have less time to self filter. I think (though I have no proof of this) that a more analytic and less posty game would be more civil and more fun to participate in.
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@BH
I dunno that a GMarshal game is the first place I'd think to look for abrasive, toxic play and comments... and yet here we are.
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On December 04 2013 18:22 Promethelax wrote:
I wish it was a skill gap, and at one point I believe it was. Now I think there is an atmosphere gap, we're doing a bad job as a community of being a community. We're just a group of assholes.
I rather think that the problem is that there has become an endemic acceptance of the hard hardheadedness of our players (myself obviously included) which has given too much leeway for anger to direct our words instead of thinking things through. This has become more apparent with the spammy nonsense posters who came about mostly in the last two years since in the culture of spam we have less time to self filter. I think (though I have no proof of this) that a more analytic and less posty game would be more civil and more fun to participate in.
Sicilian mafia hosted by Ver was a post restriction game.
I think that also got pretty heated.
People in this community do give praise when you play well; but absolutely ridicule you to bits when it goes astray.
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On December 04 2013 18:17 Blazinghand wrote:
@phaggathe skill gap or the atmosphere gap?
I haven't read bttb but just some questions/thoughts: is the bad atmosphere thing a function of game size as well? Or maybe it's a function of who hosts a game (ie people playing less abrasively when I host a game because I warn people liberally for language)? An argument against the language thing would be that it's perfectly possible to have a terrible environment that uses civil language, and being unfriendly, unhelpful, and unco-operative are not in fact against the rules, nor should they be. If it's really a function of people having out of game beefs or large egos, then we have to look at a solution based on enforced shadowing, coaching, or even hydraing to try to work out the kinks in our community.
If it's an isolated event, it's an isolated event, but if it's not, it's not.
The skill gap.
Of course there is also an atmosphere gap. There always was, but it used to be from friendly/serious in newbies to serious/trollish-but-still-positive in non-newbies. But nowadays you go from friendly/serious to hateful/negative. However, as I mentioned before, this is a problem that we, the players and hosts, have to solve. This can't be fixed by coaching/shadowing.
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EPT
