|
My read on this? I have suspicions toward Onegu, especially as Chrom's strongest scum read, but there are things about him I stated in my defense of him to FirmTofu as well as one other thing I won't waste the time and energy elaborating on. It would just be fluff. And also: FirmTofu fulfilled my requirement to get me to vote Onegu. I could do it now.
You are waffleing and that is a scum tell, I am suspicious but there are things I can defend him and other reasons I wont post,but I can vote for him.
|
@Onegu: The prevailing thread sentiment at the moment appears to be that you are a favoured lynch for today. I imagine you don't want that, so who do you think we should lynch instead? Your goal should be to persuade the thread that your scum read is more likely to flip scum than you are.
|
On June 27 2013 18:19 Aquanim wrote:
@Onegu: The prevailing thread sentiment at the moment appears to be that you are a favoured lynch for today. I imagine you don't want that, so who do you think we should lynch instead? Your goal should be to persuade the thread that your scum read is more likely to flip scum than you are.
My strongest read to flip scum is firmtofu, he has lied and bullied to get his vote on someone he said wasnt likely to flip scum.
|
On June 27 2013 18:25 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 18:19 Aquanim wrote:
@Onegu: The prevailing thread sentiment at the moment appears to be that you are a favoured lynch for today. I imagine you don't want that, so who do you think we should lynch instead? Your goal should be to persuade the thread that your scum read is more likely to flip scum than you are. My strongest read to flip scum is firmtofu, he has lied and bullied to get his vote on someone he said wasnt likely to flip scum.
That has got to be the worst interpretation of my actions I have ever read.
My lie was told to Hurricane to save Aquanim from a lynch.
My "bullying"(I don't even agree with this term) was so Alakaslam would vote for you.
When did I say you were not likely to flip scum, exactly?
|
|
|
FirmTofu's Case Against Onegu
Point #1: Onegu seems to be looking for reasons to vote me that he doesn't necessarily even agree with.
Example: Onegu initially states that meta is bad and you should "stop trying to meta peoples play."
On June 24 2013 16:10 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 15:46 Alakaslam wrote:On June 24 2013 15:35 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 15:32 Alakaslam wrote:
I know I sai I'd go but this came up.
From the post for us newbs:
"Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread."
I have already messed up in this regard and I apologize. But note some folks have also talked about meta from previous newbie games and I don't think we are allowed to do that either. Will ask In green tomorrow when not trying to go to bed and when at computer. (iPhone)
We are ok since the games we are talking about have finished already. Sweet! Thanks again Onegu. I think I'll read those then- Tomorrow. Man this is worse than angry birds, I am thoroughly addicted. For now here is a list, so ALL of town can meta :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359Sorry that there is no meta on me, I'm that new. Note that some players may not only have played newbie games. Search their names! How late you want me up, midnight? I get up at 5 tomorrow! Also, check that you don't get into the above error first. Ok guys meta on peoples play you shold have played with that person at least 5 times, as this is impossible please stop trying to meta peoples play. It is ok to infer somethings on game setup, but people are still learning thier playstyle in a newbie game so you cannot base a scum read on meta play in noob games...
Then, when he wants to make a case against me, he uses my failure to use meta as an excuse to call me scummy.
On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia.
It seems like Onegu has differing views on meta depending on when it is convenient for him to think one way or another.
Point #2: Onegu switched his vote from Aquanim to Alakaslam rather arbitrarily, suggesting that he knew Aquanim would flip town and everyone would blame him, so he moved to his "second best" scum read.
Example: Here we see Onegu buiding a case for Aquanim and establishing that he believes Alakaslam is "noob scum" and is a lower priority lynch to Aquanim. I have bolded all relevant areas.
On June 25 2013 16:58 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote:On June 25 2013 16:45 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 16:33 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 16:01 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 15:50 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 15:48 fyfy wrote:
I'm getting the read now that Aquanim is more scum than Xzavier as Aqua seems to be extremely defensive and I maintain my belief that Xzavier just types like a scum. Reading through the discussion, I am under the belief that Aquanim is scum.
##Vote: Aquanim Can you explain this some more? What exactly about my play do you think is scum-motivated? Can you please post your case against me as the only thing you have said is I didnt respond when things were going on, well I was going to sleep when HZ posted his case, I responded to the NN thing and have scum hunted and tried to create a useful town atmosphere. I have no idea what this request has to do with the post you quoted, but whatever... The first page and a half or so of your filter is just talking about policy, power roles and random fluff without any particular intention of finding scum. This isn't damning in as of itself, early game does tend to be like that, but the entirety of your efforts in the direction of finding scum is an overwhelming tunnel of myself. As far as I can tell, you haven't looked at anyone else at all, and endlessly tunneling a likely lynch target for the day while repeating the same old arguments (made by other people before you, mostly) over and over is a good way to look active while not actually bringing anything new to the table or having to pretend to do some original scumhunting. You haven't made any significant and new contributions to the thread, which is scum's natural state. That being said, I think it's possible that you're town and that you think tunneling me like this is accomplishing something, which is why I'm voting Xzavier over you. Actually I have made a scum hunt albit small on alakaslam, I think he is noob scum which isnt as important as killing a scum who knows what they are doing. Jesus Christ bud, if you think he's scum, by all means vote him. It's not like you know of any scum who know what they're doing, so you not voting for Alakasam is extremely suspicious to me. If I have 2 scum reads I am going to vote for the one that is the biggest threat to town. And the reason I think he is scum is he posts only fluff offers no posts to help town and offers no reads on anyone at all. The only thing he has said is spicy and onegu defend yourself. Then he dissapears, I feel this is super noob scum play but in no way is dangerous to town, on the other hand aqua has posted dangerous even harmful ideas toward town.
Then, as soon as he is pressured, he backs away from Aquanim. CONTEXT! At this point, removing his vote caused the tiebreak scenario between the lynch of Xzavier and the lynch of Aquanim to be lifted. In essence, this move sealed Xzavier's fate and saved Aquanim from being a probable lynch. This ensured that Onegu would not look suspicious post-lynch because he wouldn't be responsible for the death of a townie.
On June 25 2013 18:08 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 17:35 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 17:27 hzflank wrote:Xzavier, Onegu and I all seem to have similar opinions on scum voting, yet we all seem to have greatly differing personalities. This leads me to believe that Xzavier and Onegu are town, as I think they arrived at their opinions by looking at the situation from a town point of view. The only slight worry I have on Xzavier is: On June 25 2013 14:33 Xzavier wrote:
Whats the massive scum yell. cuz im not gonna lie. i skimmed threw all the noisy neighbor spam just to see who was asking for them to claim. no other part of it means anything to me xD But that could just be a character trait or a lack of time. On the whole I am uncomfortable with the votes on Xzavier. Is there anything about Xzavier and Onegu's play which makes you think they're town besides where their vote is? Personally, I can't see anything about their play which makes me think they're looking at this game with a town mentality and actually searching for scum, rather than just jumping on the only other wagon going. I think they are likely scum but I have a much townier read on you because I can see you're thinking about the game and critically evaluating your reads. Their arguments, on the other hand, are mostly "herp derp he disagreed with us about nosy neighbours" and "look at this single post and how it agrees with something someone else said, that's so scummy!". I don't think either of them could sincerely believe I'm scum based on the arguments they've presented. You said you had some questions for me, will they be forthcoming soon? Ok fine I will admit my case on you with my own findings isnt that strong. And looking at Alakaslam again he is my stronger case. ##: UNVOTE
##: VOTE ALAKASLAMBut if we lynch Xzavier and he flips town we will be lynching you day 2.
Point #3: Onegu was wanted to lynch Aquanim if Xzavier flipped town, but post-lynch, he didn't even pursue Aquanim at all.
(See last quoted post) The most critical part of this post lies in the last sentence. What changed? Why did he give up on Aquanim? Nearly all of Onegu's case for me relies on events that happened prior to this post. There is absolutely no reason for him to suddenly switch his vbest scum read from Aquanim to me. A townie in this position after Xzavier's flip as town would pursue Aquanim to no end. The only explanation here is that Onegu is scum, and he sees me as a greater threat to his mafia team than Aquanim.
Point #4: Onegu declared his apathy to both the Xzavier and Aquanim lynches shortly thereafter with no developments other than his case for Alakaslam.
On June 26 2013 02:19 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. To be honest I dont care who is killed if Xzavier flips town my vote will go on aquanim and if he flips scum I will vote Spicydinosaur. My current read on Xzavier is null with scum reads on alakaslam and aqua. With every post Alakaslam makes he looks more and more like noob scum to me.
Note: He reiterates that if Xzavier flips town, Onegu's vote will go to Aquanim. This is further evidence for Point #2 and is also indicative that Onegu still has not shifted his suspicions onto me.
He says he has scum reads on Alakaslam and Aqua, but doesn't vote for Aqua who was the only one likely to be lynched that day. The scum reasoning behind this is that he doesn't want to be suspected post lynch(Point #2). A townie would be willing to push their second best scum read(Aquanim) if he was the only scum read that was even on the table. Only scum would try and pretend as though Alakaslam was a viable option.
Elaboration on why apathy is a problem: Onegu's apathy towards the lynch on day 1 is a clear scum tell. An honest townie, in his position, would never have switched from voting Aquanim to voting Alakaslam. Even if the townie thought Aquanim was a sub-optimal lynch, he would have been willing to pursue it was the lynch that was even remotely likely to go through that he agreed with.
However, scum Onegu was obviously apathetic about the lynch because he knew that, no matter what, a townie would die. Therefore, to clear himself of blame, he quickly got off the wagon he was currently on and allowed the other wagon to take precedence. This way, no one could accuse him of being the reason for getting a townie killed. It was a brilliant move, until of course, he was honest about his true intentions.
Point #5: Onegu's entire case against me is a scummy OMGUS that only serves to maim my authority and credibility.
The only thing that happened right after post-lynch was that Chromatically and I drafted up separate cases against Onegu. Nothing else changed. There was absolutely no reason for Onegu to change his scum read of Aquanim to suddenly attack me.
Here is his case for reference.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:Going to make a case on FirmTofu also as looking over his filter looks scummy also. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Scum Hunt Day 1:On June 24 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
hey guys Analysis: Trying to appear friendly with an innocuous greeting. Seems to project an air of insecurity. Preliminary Conclusion: Scum On June 24 2013 11:01 StiMaDDict wrote:
so it begins.. Analysis: Neutral statement of fact. Preliminary Conclusion: Need more information. On June 24 2013 11:02 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone Analysis: Exudes power with strong capitalization techniques along with a greeting. Preliminary Conclusion: A leader with a powerful role. On June 24 2013 11:03 Xzavier wrote:
Spicy <3 hello again. Analysis: Trying to establish a connection with a player that he has interacted with prior to this game. A metagaming, manipulative sort of move. Preliminary Conclusion: Scummy On June 24 2013 11:04 Chromatically wrote:
Why so scummy, Spicy? Analysis: First baseless accusation. As the old chinese proverb states, "He who smelt it, dealt it." Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Suggested Lynch: Chromatically His first post is nothing, it doesnt promote a good town atmosphere nor does it get anyone to defend themself as the cases are just BS. Show nested quote +As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia. As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Show nested quote +As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Such a wierd choice on who to vote but more on this in a moment. Show nested quote +It wasn't pure spam, and I certainly hoped it would generate discussion. I knew I could not really say anything of substance at that point, so I decided to do something fun that would get people talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. When you look at this post and contrast it to some first few posts, you can clearly see that singling me out as a target is rather silly.
But it was pure spam, when you say it was something fun that means it is spam. Show nested quote +Just because Stim seems scummier than fyfy doesn't mean fyfy shouldn't be voted. I wanted fyfy to talk and I wanted to draw attention to him. That was the reason for my vote. Nothing more, nothing less. We can address Stim now that I am awake. But why try to get someone who hasnt talked at all to try to talk? Someone who you know has posted and is most likely to post again is a much better choice to pressure, unless of course you dont want them to have to talk more... Show nested quote +I almost agree with everything you said. The problem arises when you realize that the case you've made for aqua is a hell of a lot stronger than the case you've made for Chromatically. Is this something you have overlooked? Or are you deliberately weaving a story to pit town against one another? For the time being, it's hard to tell one way or the other, but I did enjoy reading. So you agree with almost everything? Show nested quote +Regardless, I see your story as a plausible conspiracy theory, at best. Acting upon it without further evidence is dangerous. Most of your post relies on speculation about the player's true motives. Show nested quote +I agreed with it in the sense that it was a plausible theory, not that it was particularly likely. For the record I have you both pegged as town and I think you are both wasting precious time accusing one another. His conspiracy idea arose mainly because you accused him of being scum. I see his post as a long-winded retaliation against your credibility to ensure that no one bandwagons him to oblivion. You agree with almost everything but its just plausable and you have town reads on both of them. What a quick backpeddle there, why so fast? Show nested quote +3) You defended fyfy while accusing me of not voting for Stim instead of fyfy. There was no reason to say that when both were perfectly good lurker targets that were largely interchangeable. But there was a big differance and in no way were they interchangeable as all you have to do is look at the ammount of posts they have had. Show nested quote +3) My point is your reason is stupid. What difference does one line of posting make? Seriously? Accusing me of being scum based on one line that someone else wrote? It makes a HUGE difference that one line means you know someone has posted and more likely to post again, while you do not know if the other will post or not. Show nested quote +2) For fyfy, I still hold that there is no difference between the lurkers and you claimed that there is a difference. I think your reasons for claiming that there is a difference are stupid and make no sense because only one line separated one from the other. Why do you continue to defend fyfy? It's quite intriguing. Why do you keep on there is no difference when there is one and spicy wasnt the only one to point it out, with fyfy fliping green this becomes much more relevant. Show nested quote +I would remind everyone of the voting rules.Voting rules:Voting is done in this thread. You cannot PM me your vote.Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion may not be counted. Vote counts will be updated whenever intermittently.No conditional voting.You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).You may vote for a No Lynch in the format: ##Vote: No LynchVoting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.If you do not think Chromatically is scum, then please vote either 1) No lynch or 2) Someone else.In the event of a tie, the person who gets voted up first, dies.
Why post this all it is is fluff and takes up space. Show nested quote +Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that. So you are happy at first with my statement what changed? Show nested quote +I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree. So you blast me for saying I have a better read on alakaslam but not voteing him then when I do vote him I am scum, but you didnt think the xzavier lynch didnt have the highest chance to flip scum? And me saying before the lynch I am ok with either lynch because the xzavier lynch gives town the most information, but when you say the same thing after the lynch that is perfectly ok? REALLY? Show nested quote +I disagree. vigi should shoot the target most likely to flip scum, and that is most definitely Onegu at this point.P.S. I wouldn't mind Spicy either *wink wink* Directing blue roles is bad and wrong dont do it. Show nested quote +So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team. If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.The ball is in your court.
This is bullying you say if you dont vote how I want you to then you are scum and I will come after you also. Show nested quote +Bullying? I don't see how this is bullying at all. I'm giving him a choice that he can choose to accept or not and I letting him know the consequences of his decision. If he doesnt make the choice you want him to then there will be consequences is the definition of bullying. Show nested quote +Also, Onegu isn't being pro-town by calling me scummy. He's being anti-town. Almost all of town agrees that I have been one of the most pro-town players this entire game. Where are these people and I would ask them to look at your filter again and go ahead and say you are one of the most pro-town people in this game. You have tunneled spicy, xzavier and me and havent done much else other than bully alakaslam andmpost fluff. And when Xzavier flips town you say you didnt even expect him to flip scum.
Nearly all of his points refer to supposed "scum-tells" that occurred pre-lynch. If he thought those were scum-tells, why didn't he bother to bring it up when it actually mattered? Why did he conveniently start to think I was scummy RIGHT AFTER I accused him?
The only explanation for this sort of behavior is that he doesn't actually think I am scummy, he is just looking for reasons to convince others to think I am scummy so no one will vote him.
TL;DR: Please, don't take shortcuts reading this if you are town. I took a great deal of time to compile this and it is the best possible case against Onegu I could ever make. Skimming is not going to cut it. If you actually read this entire thing and don't agree that Onegu is at least a little scummy,without giving any valid reasoning, I am just going to assume you are scum.
|
EBWOP:
On June 27 2013 20:43 FirmTofu wrote:
Elaboration on why apathy is a problem: Onegu's apathy towards the lynch on day 1 is a clear scum tell. An honest townie, in his position, would never have switched from voting Aquanim to voting Alakaslam. Even if the townie thought Aquanim was a sub-optimal lynch, he would have been willing to pursue because it was the only lynch that was even remotely likely to go through that he agreed with.
Bolded parts are added words.
|
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
If you have been roleblocked (you will have been notified by a PM from the host), claim in the thread in your next post that you have been roleblocked.
This is NOT a claim that you have a role to be blocked. A player with no powers may also be blocked.
This information is far more valuable to the town than it is to mafia when revealed. If you doubt this, check any recent normal game with roleblock/jailkeeper roles.
(It just occured to me that no-one has said this yet, and perhaps there's someone who doesn't know.)
|
Still mulling over your case FirmTofu.
I would like to see Onegu's reply before making my comments.
|
On June 27 2013 10:18 Aquanim wrote:On SpicydinosaurThe point was made early in the thread that Spicy was playing defensively. I would rather term his play as "reactive". Spicy's reply to this was as follows: Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 12:39 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote:
I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
I do this in all my games, check out Les Mafiafor a good example. Though i don't see how that is alignment indicative as no one wants to get lynched. I thought maybe I should actually go and read Les Mafia. Oh boy..... In Les Mafia, Spicydinosaur was a Parity Cop. I would characterise his play in the following way: - He offered a lot of his own reads. I think this is partly because he was asked for his opinion a lot in Les Mafia - however, he does offer some up of his own volition.
My feeling is that in Les Mafia Spicy is giving reasons for his suspicions, whereas in this game he is giving justifications for his vote. The distinction is slight, but it's there. Another way to say the same thing is that I haven't seen Spicy try to persuade anybody else of anything this game.
- He doesn't really ask many questions at all, which is similar to his play here. I don't see any reason for him to ask more questions as scum, so this is null.
- Number of posts which I would characterise as defensive over-reactions: ZERO. That's right, absolutely none.
At one point in Les Mafia, more than a quarter of the thread was voting for him and he barely batted an eye. Perhaps this was because he always knew he could claim Parity Cop and escape the lynch.
However, even in reaction to more moderate pokes (similar to what he received in this game) his response was measured, logical, and mostly in defence of himself, in contrast to this game in which his replies to pressure have largely been to claim that whoever pressuring him is scummier.
I strongly suggest that everybody read Les Mafia and get your own feeling for Spicy's play in that game. (Before anyone yells out that meta isn't a valid tool for analysis, Spicy provided this HIMSELF to justify his actions. Obviously, he thinks that it is a valid tool to analyse his play.) His argument with FirmTofu (you know the one) isn't particularly alignment-indicative to me. He is flinging a lot of shit at FirmTofu, but I can't say that he wouldn't do this as town too. This section of his filter could bear further analysis I feel. Spicy's reads so far (shortly summarised) are as follows: - Initial case on FirmTofu, which was trash. About half of it is based on the following:
He claims I'm scummy because i am defensive when accused of being scum.
On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote:
I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
He acknowledges that it could just be my personality, yet when I link past games to show exactly that, he ignores it. At this point he just backs off his scum claim.
On June 24 2013 12:44 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 12:39 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote:
I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
I do this in all my games, check out Les Mafiafor a good example. Though i don't see how that is alignment indicative as no one wants to get lynched. I won't bother looking at your past games, because I believe you should only be judged on your actions in this game. As I mentioned before, you could very well have a defensive personality, so I am not saying you are definitely scum or anything like that.
FirmTofu ignores it AND backs off his scum claim? This is OMGUS paranoia at its best.
The rest of the case isn't relevant to FirmTofu being scummy at all. I honestly don't see the point in this case besides flinging shit back at someone who's mildly suspicious of him.
- Some short, meaningless stab at LoneMeow.
- A pretty wishy-washy stance on Xzavier:
On June 25 2013 23:11 Spicydinosaur wrote:
I'm not liking Xzavier as a D1 lynch but i see why others are voting him. Before chrom threw a vote down on him he did 0 scum hunting and his posts were just policy and/or fluff. With that i can clearly see a vote. However what he has done since the votes started piling on has convinced me he's town. An unproductive town before the vote, but a townie no less.
Insulting 1/2 the people in the thread is not the best way to stop a lynch on you, in fact its a good way to guarantee it. Then he throws a quick vote on aqua with a weak reason to back it up. The vote felt very reactionary like he was going for the first scummy thing he could find, not very calculated. I know some people dont like meta in newbie games, but here i feel Xzavier was just being a lot more cautious with his scum hunting after what happened last game which didnt go so well. I also feel that a scum xzavier would be more self conscious of his 0 scum hunting up to this point and would have put something down at this point.
He sees why Xzavier is being voted but doesn't like the lynch? His following arguments are bad, though I think it's just plausible that a townie would believe them... but this would be a classic scum reaction to a leading townie wagon.
- Never gets around to giving his read on me until after the deadline when it's mostly irrelevant.
- His case for Hurricane is that Hurricane has only posted fluff so far - Hurricane was AFK since the time when nobody had posted anything but fluff. A distinct lack of critical thought about this case.
I may have missed some reads but I don't think any of them were significant. In short, none of these reads make me think "town" and they all seem pretty convenient from a scummy perspective. Do I think Spicy's scum for not arguing harder for a switch away from Xzavier onto Hurricane? Not really, the thread sentiment was pretty strong against Xzavier at that point and it would take an awfully strong townie to face up to that. But it certainly isn't a towny indication, either. tl;dr I haven't found much of anything in Spicy's filter which makes me strongly think town, and unlike Onegu I'd expect there to be something if he was town. My gut says scum, but I want to look for more before drawing final conclusions. On Onegu[spoiler] As far as I can tell the case on Onegu boils down to a few main points: 1) His 'apathy' to the day one wagons - generally indicative of scum not wanting to take responsibility. 2) The less-than-persuasive nature of his cases Is this a plausible interpretation of Onegu's actions if he's scum? I think it is. However, it is not the only possible interpretation. 1) Onegu did, and always has had, a scumread on me. I suspect it's mostly a gut read, since the reasons he's raising are not very strong. He was at one point the primary force behind my wagon, I'd say; at least he was arguing his point. However, at a certain point he jumped off my vote and went to Alakaslam instead. If he's scum, he could have convincingly stayed on my wagon for a great deal longer than he did - hell, he could have rode that wagon all the way to a mislynch without looking terminally scummy. He wasn't under a great deal of pressure to move his vote at that point, except from me - I have difficulty seeing the direct scum motivation for this move. Question: After switching vote to Alakaslam, do you think Onegu *could* have switched his vote back to me without looking absolutely awful, whatever his actual alignment? As such, was he actually as apathetic to the lynch as the final place his vote ended up might indicate? Onegu had already taken a fair bit of responsibility for his read on me. Furthermore, do you think Onegu was capable of effectively arguing against the strong prevailing thread sentiment towards the end of the day? I don't. 2) Just because he's wrong, and hasn't made accurate cases, is no guarantee that Onegu is scum. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is Onegu honestly searching the thread and trying to find scum?". Again, for me, this is a definite maybe. I still want to see Onegu play some more to convince myself whether he is sincere in his accusations. Other people in this game are reading filters and making high-level, rational conclusions from their overal understanding of the game, and that's a town indication for me. Scum prefer to nitpick because it's harder for them to be caught out in a lie or inconsistency, and is inherently less work. They're not interested in That being said, just because someone isn't effectively hunting for scum doesn't mean they aren't trying to hunt for scum. I think the most important thing in trying to read Onegu is to assess whether he is honestly and sincerely trying to find scum. tl;dr I think there is a reasonable explanation for Onegu's actions from both a town and a scum perspective. [/spoiler]
Just wanted to address a few points:
Im not sure i follow when you say "My feeling is that in Les Mafia Spicy is giving reasons for his suspicions, whereas in this game he is giving justifications for his vote." I gave my reasons for suspecting tofu early on and there was no vote there. Also can you explain the difference between reasons and justifications the way you use it?
I also completely disagree with how you claim i defended myself in les mafia. Barely batting an eye? Here is what i wrote in response to someone voting me:
"If you want to bring my meta into this then fine. the newbie game reads were a hell of a lot easier. My analysis has been the same in both games, posting analysis of players. Simply because some of my earlier analysis didnt come up scum doesnt mean that my play is different. Take my recent read on you that you haven't responded to. Called you scum for your consolidation and rampant vote changing. Your tunneling of me this late goes against everything you said about consolidation in your earlier posts. You are scum and your attempt to get a late day bandwagoning going is evident of it. "
The rest of it is just explaining my fucked up post. (quick aside for anyone who didnt want to read les mafia, i was voted for posting a horrible case on one person but contained posts of another).
You also now think my initial case on tofu is "trash" and yet earlier you stated this:
On June 25 2013 12:36 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 12:25 Chromatically wrote:
Nothing else to say, Aqua?
I'm not used to prompting you for reads and opinions. Don't you have any thoughts on the events of today? hz/Spicy/Tofu? I'm not interested in lynching any of those three today, if that's what you're asking. I can see the thought process of all three and I can easily see all of it coming from a town mindset, even if I don't agree with a lot of it.
Clear contradiction.
Laslty, my read on hurricane was bad because he was afk and posted nothing but fluff? How does that make it ok?
|
Im not sure i follow when you say "My feeling is that in Les Mafia Spicy is giving reasons for his suspicions, whereas in this game he is giving justifications for his vote." I gave my reasons for suspecting tofu early on and there was no vote there. Also can you explain the difference between reasons and justifications the way you use it?
I meant to make that distinction more clear, but ran out of time before the deadline and then forgot about it.
My impression of your play in this game is that you're not looking for scum (and finding reasons why they are scum), you're finding somebody you can justify putting your vote on. Town look for scum, scum look for a convincing place to put their vote and thus look like they're looking for scum.
I can't believe an intelligent townie could seriously believe that Hurricane was more likely to flip scum than Xzavier at the end of day 1.
I also completely disagree with how you claim i defended myself in les mafia. Barely batting an eye? Here is what i wrote in response to someone voting me:
"If you want to bring my meta into this then fine. the newbie game reads were a hell of a lot easier. My analysis has been the same in both games, posting analysis of players. Simply because some of my earlier analysis didnt come up scum doesnt mean that my play is different. Take my recent read on you that you haven't responded to. Called you scum for your consolidation and rampant vote changing. Your tunneling of me this late goes against everything you said about consolidation in your earlier posts. You are scum and your attempt to get a late day bandwagoning going is evident of it. "
The rest of it is just explaining my fucked up post. (quick aside for anyone who didnt want to read les mafia, i was voted for posting a horrible case on one person but contained posts of another).
That's exactly it. People voted for you in Les Mafia. FirmTofu didn't vote for you at the start of the game and yet you jumped all over him with an approach I can only describe as mud-slinging, making the conversation about him rather than about you. On the other hand, in Les Mafia you defended yourself rationally, even though the accusations levelled against you were much more serious. Reacting reasonably to four votes on you that have been made for an objectively valid reason is an entirely reasonable thing to do - reacting violently to a single person saying they are moderately suspicious of you, only a few hours into the game, is not.
You also now think my initial case on tofu is "trash" and yet earlier you stated this:
On June 25 2013 12:36 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm not interested in lynching any of those three today, if that's what you're asking. I can see the thought process of all three and I can easily see all of it coming from a town mindset, even if I don't agree with a lot of it.
Clear contradiction.
I thought it was trash then too, I just thought it was towny. (Townies are not always right - hell townies often don't even make sense.) I reread it more thoroughly during the night, and I changed my mind. Townie's prerogative.
Laslty, my read on hurricane was bad because he was afk and posted nothing but fluff? How does that make it ok?
Well, if I'd looked at Hurricane's filter at that time I would have thought "This guy hasn't been here to post since the initial phase where most everything is fluff... I'll see what he posts when he comes back and there's actual material in the thread for him to work with before I commit to a read on him". You, on the other hand, apparently thought that case was good enough to stick with up until the lynch (even though he'd posted considerably more content since then, which pretty much nullified your original case).
|
@Spicy
After looking over my case on Onegu, what are your thoughts on him?
|
On June 27 2013 22:39 Aquanim wrote:
Still mulling over your case FirmTofu.
I would like to see Onegu's reply before making my comments.
A few things to be wary of:
Onegu is probably shitting his pants right now along with his scum team, who are currently trying to come up with the best plan that minimizes their losses.
You need to hold Onegu accountable not only for his response, but also the time he takes to formulate one. The longer he takes, the more indicative it is that he is scum.
I apologize for all the grammatical and spelling mistakes in my case against Onegu btw, I was really tired when I wrote that.
|
On June 27 2013 23:52 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 22:39 Aquanim wrote:
Still mulling over your case FirmTofu.
I would like to see Onegu's reply before making my comments. A few things to be wary of: Onegu is probably shitting his pants right now along with his scum team, who are currently trying to come up with the best plan that minimizes their losses. You need to hold Onegu accountable not only for his response, but also the time he takes to formulate one. The longer he takes, the more indicative it is that he is scum. I apologize for all the grammatical and spelling mistakes in my case against Onegu btw, I was really tired when I wrote that.
I don't think you should ever try to judge someone's alignment based on how slowly they reply to you (within reason, of course <stares at StiMaDDict again>). You never know whether real life interfered, or they just needed to think about it for a while, or anything else.
|
That being said,
@Onegu: If you are in fact town, the way to convince us of that is to post and to show you are seriously analysing the game and looking for scum.
|
On June 27 2013 23:58 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 23:52 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 22:39 Aquanim wrote:
Still mulling over your case FirmTofu.
I would like to see Onegu's reply before making my comments. A few things to be wary of: Onegu is probably shitting his pants right now along with his scum team, who are currently trying to come up with the best plan that minimizes their losses. You need to hold Onegu accountable not only for his response, but also the time he takes to formulate one. The longer he takes, the more indicative it is that he is scum. I apologize for all the grammatical and spelling mistakes in my case against Onegu btw, I was really tired when I wrote that. I don't think you should ever try to judge someone's alignment based on how slowly they reply to you (within reason, of course <stares at StiMaDDict again>). You never know whether real life interfered, or they just needed to think about it for a while, or anything else.
Just be aware that time is a constraint and you may not want to hold off on conveying your opinions about Onegu until the last minute just because he hasn't replied to defend himself.
|
On June 27 2013 23:48 FirmTofu wrote:
@Spicy
After looking over my case on Onegu, what are your thoughts on him?
I think points 1 and 5 are the weakest and dont really hold that much weight.
On point 1 i dont see the contradiction in between the two quotes. You both agree that using meta isnt a good idea. What he is saying (at least how im reading it) is that your reason for not using it (because its boring) isnt a good reason at all.
Point 5 is just completely self serving "tofu is pro-town and anyone who attacks me is scum trying to hurt my credibility."
Got a question on point 3: How do you pressure someone during a night cycle? Did you want him to make a new case on him? What were you expecting him to post? If he was sincere about his sentiment to vote aqua because of the way the lynch goes, then i would expect a case today or a damn good reason why he is backing off of that.
Your other points on apathy and the vote switch i believe are valid concerns as i have previously stated and i dont think he's adequately stated why.
|
Sorry just back home from hospital I will adress the case on me in a bit before I sleep.
|
On June 28 2013 00:11 Spicydinosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 23:48 FirmTofu wrote:
@Spicy
After looking over my case on Onegu, what are your thoughts on him? Got a question on point 3: How do you pressure someone during a night cycle? Did you want him to make a new case on him? What were you expecting him to post? If he was sincere about his sentiment to vote aqua because of the way the lynch goes, then i would expect a case today or a damn good reason why he is backing off of that.
Town has to maximize the night cycle to throw out all of their best scumreads so that in the event that they die, town will have the maximum possible information to work with from a sincere individual.
If Onegu was town, he would have tunneled Aquanim instead of using an OMGUS tactic to discredit me. He, as town, should have already been convinced that Aqua was scum because of his statements the previous day that if Xzavier flipped town, Aqua was scum. Even though I accused him of being mafia, a town-focused Onegu would still consider Aquanim his best scumread instead of shifting attention onto me based on a flimsy case that relies on Day 1 reads that he could have just as easily made on Day 1 itself.
|
On June 27 2013 06:25 FirmTofu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:Going to make a case on FirmTofu also as looking over his filter looks scummy also. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Scum Hunt Day 1:On June 24 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
hey guys Analysis: Trying to appear friendly with an innocuous greeting. Seems to project an air of insecurity. Preliminary Conclusion: Scum On June 24 2013 11:01 StiMaDDict wrote:
so it begins.. Analysis: Neutral statement of fact. Preliminary Conclusion: Need more information. On June 24 2013 11:02 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone Analysis: Exudes power with strong capitalization techniques along with a greeting. Preliminary Conclusion: A leader with a powerful role. On June 24 2013 11:03 Xzavier wrote:
Spicy <3 hello again. Analysis: Trying to establish a connection with a player that he has interacted with prior to this game. A metagaming, manipulative sort of move. Preliminary Conclusion: Scummy On June 24 2013 11:04 Chromatically wrote:
Why so scummy, Spicy? Analysis: First baseless accusation. As the old chinese proverb states, "He who smelt it, dealt it." Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Suggested Lynch: Chromatically His first post is nothing, it doesnt promote a good town atmosphere nor does it get anyone to defend themself as the cases are just BS. Show nested quote +As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia. As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Show nested quote +As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Such a wierd choice on who to vote but more on this in a moment. Show nested quote +It wasn't pure spam, and I certainly hoped it would generate discussion. I knew I could not really say anything of substance at that point, so I decided to do something fun that would get people talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. When you look at this post and contrast it to some first few posts, you can clearly see that singling me out as a target is rather silly.
But it was pure spam, when you say it was something fun that means it is spam. Show nested quote +Just because Stim seems scummier than fyfy doesn't mean fyfy shouldn't be voted. I wanted fyfy to talk and I wanted to draw attention to him. That was the reason for my vote. Nothing more, nothing less. We can address Stim now that I am awake. But why try to get someone who hasnt talked at all to try to talk? Someone who you know has posted and is most likely to post again is a much better choice to pressure, unless of course you dont want them to have to talk more... Show nested quote +I almost agree with everything you said. The problem arises when you realize that the case you've made for aqua is a hell of a lot stronger than the case you've made for Chromatically. Is this something you have overlooked? Or are you deliberately weaving a story to pit town against one another? For the time being, it's hard to tell one way or the other, but I did enjoy reading. So you agree with almost everything? Show nested quote +Regardless, I see your story as a plausible conspiracy theory, at best. Acting upon it without further evidence is dangerous. Most of your post relies on speculation about the player's true motives. Show nested quote +I agreed with it in the sense that it was a plausible theory, not that it was particularly likely. For the record I have you both pegged as town and I think you are both wasting precious time accusing one another. His conspiracy idea arose mainly because you accused him of being scum. I see his post as a long-winded retaliation against your credibility to ensure that no one bandwagons him to oblivion. You agree with almost everything but its just plausable and you have town reads on both of them. What a quick backpeddle there, why so fast? Show nested quote +3) You defended fyfy while accusing me of not voting for Stim instead of fyfy. There was no reason to say that when both were perfectly good lurker targets that were largely interchangeable. But there was a big differance and in no way were they interchangeable as all you have to do is look at the ammount of posts they have had. Show nested quote +3) My point is your reason is stupid. What difference does one line of posting make? Seriously? Accusing me of being scum based on one line that someone else wrote? It makes a HUGE difference that one line means you know someone has posted and more likely to post again, while you do not know if the other will post or not. Show nested quote +2) For fyfy, I still hold that there is no difference between the lurkers and you claimed that there is a difference. I think your reasons for claiming that there is a difference are stupid and make no sense because only one line separated one from the other. Why do you continue to defend fyfy? It's quite intriguing. Why do you keep on there is no difference when there is one and spicy wasnt the only one to point it out, with fyfy fliping green this becomes much more relevant. Show nested quote +I would remind everyone of the voting rules.Voting rules:Voting is done in this thread. You cannot PM me your vote.Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion may not be counted. Vote counts will be updated whenever intermittently.No conditional voting.You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).You may vote for a No Lynch in the format: ##Vote: No LynchVoting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.If you do not think Chromatically is scum, then please vote either 1) No lynch or 2) Someone else.In the event of a tie, the person who gets voted up first, dies.
Why post this all it is is fluff and takes up space. Show nested quote +Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that. So you are happy at first with my statement what changed? Show nested quote +I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree. So you blast me for saying I have a better read on alakaslam but not voteing him then when I do vote him I am scum, but you didnt think the xzavier lynch didnt have the highest chance to flip scum? And me saying before the lynch I am ok with either lynch because the xzavier lynch gives town the most information, but when you say the same thing after the lynch that is perfectly ok? REALLY? Show nested quote +I disagree. vigi should shoot the target most likely to flip scum, and that is most definitely Onegu at this point.P.S. I wouldn't mind Spicy either *wink wink* Directing blue roles is bad and wrong dont do it. Show nested quote +So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team. If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.The ball is in your court.
This is bullying you say if you dont vote how I want you to then you are scum and I will come after you also. Show nested quote +Bullying? I don't see how this is bullying at all. I'm giving him a choice that he can choose to accept or not and I letting him know the consequences of his decision. If he doesnt make the choice you want him to then there will be consequences is the definition of bullying. Show nested quote +Also, Onegu isn't being pro-town by calling me scummy. He's being anti-town. Almost all of town agrees that I have been one of the most pro-town players this entire game. Where are these people and I would ask them to look at your filter again and go ahead and say you are one of the most pro-town people in this game. You have tunneled spicy, xzavier and me and havent done much else other than bully alakaslam andmpost fluff. And when Xzavier flips town you say you didnt even expect him to flip scum. Here is the post accusing me of everything and anything Onegu could get his hands on. Although I have addressed nearly all of his points in various posts, I will condense it and address each one in detail here so that you only have at one place to read all of it. Onegu and Spicy's Point 1: FirmTofu made a scummy first post that detracted from the quality of the thread. My Defense: If anything, I made some good cases against people who had already talked based on what I knew at the time. Look at the other posts in the first few hours of day 1. Are any of those similarly fluffy? Is mine somehow more filled with fluff than any of those? Honestly, at that point, what do you expect me to say? Onegu and Spicy's Point 2: FirmTofu doesn't want us to discuss metagaming and is therefore scummy. My Defense: I don't want to discuss metagaming because I am philosophically against it. If you look at any of my other games, I have not once discussed previous games to influence the ongoing one(Oh, the irony is strong with me). Onegu and Spicy's Point 3: FirmTofu voted fyfy instead of StiMaDDict who had posted once in the thread. Voting someone who hasn't talked(fyfy) when you see that there is someone who has talked(StiM but has lurked is scummy because StiM actually has a chance of responding. My Defense: I voted fyfy because he hadn't posted. I wanted him to post. I also wanted StiM to post, in fact, I told everyone to keep an eye on him. The only reason I didn't vote StiM as well is because I can't actually vote twice. To say it is scummy to vote for one guy who I thought was scummy instead of the other guy I thought was scummy is ignorant. I would have voted for both if I could have. Onegu and Spicy's Point 3: FirmTofu agreed with hzflank's theory that Aqua and Chromatically were secretly working together, but then quickly backpedaled and said he didn't think it was likely. My Defense: I didn't backpedal. I articulated my thoughts on the matter through a series of posts. My statement was that hzflank's theory was plausible, but unlikely. I never deviated from that line of reasoning. My first post says that I almost agree with all of his reasoning because I knew it was a possible scenario. My later posts explain that even though it is possible, it's very unlikely to be true. Even hzflank admitted later that his theory wasn't likely to be true. Was he backpedaling too, why do you think he is free of blame? Onegu and Spicy's Point 4: FirmTofu blasted Onegu about the fact that he didn't get on the Xzavier lynch and instead voted for Alakslam, but now FirmTofu is still accusing Onegu as scum when he didn't vote for town-flipped Xzavier. My Defense: You are taking the situation out of context and making it sound like I had the same beliefs at both times. Pre-lynch, I was under the assumption that Xzavier would flip mafia, therefore I thought you were mafia for avoiding lynching him. It looked like you were trying to save your mafia buddy, so I called you out on that. Post-lynch, circumstances changed. As I have explained numerous times, your actions of voting Alakslam (to make yourself appear as though you are town by not voting Xzavier who you know is town) and your statement of apathy is what convinced me that you are scum. Onegu and Spicy's Point 5: FirmTofu lied to Hurricane to get Hurricane to vote for Xzavier. My Defense: I lied to ensure that Aquanim would not get lynched. If you recall correctly, my first choice lynch was actually Spicy and the only reason I ever switched to Xzavier was because no one was backing me up and my vote was essentially useless. I agreed many town members that Xzavier was scummy based on numerous points, so I decided he would be a decent person to lynch and get some information on. Remember, I had to defer to a sub-optimal lynch! All the other points don't amount to much and just aim to hurt my town cred. If there is anything specific I haven't addressed, please let me know.
Sorry its been a while but I want to address this real fast first.
Point #2
While I agree useing metagameing is bad you reason that is boring is what is scummy.
Point #4
Except you say you didnt expect him to flip mafia. So now you are saying you did expect him to?
I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree.
And if the above post is how you felt you lied to lynch someone who you thought would flip town.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
