EPTOn April 24 2013 23:11 Sharrant wrote:
Okay, let's get this started with the most important part:
Clarity should be lynched tomorrow, a few people have made cases on why, and they're quite right. He apparently spent 4 hours reading the thread and came up with not even half a case on me, and refused to comment on the lynch that was happening right in front of his eyes all the while flip flopping on the amount of time and effort he supposedly put in.
He's obvious enough at this point that everyone should be on board with his lynch, I don't think there's more that needs to be said about him.
Responses to cases and stuff:
@Clarity
There's nothing in your case to respond to. You obviously just skimmed my filter and tried to pick out what you could skew to look mafia oriented, and you failed miserably at that.
@Rayne
+ Show Spoiler +
1. It's laughable that yous till think that asking for games is a scum tell, but run with it if it makes you happy. He did point me to his games, just not linked them. Not as helpful as I would have hoped he would have been, but he didn't mention any games off site which was the concern.
2. I never stated I was pleased with your answer. I asked you to restate so everyone would see that your answers still did not match up with what you had said earlier in the thread. Pushing that singular point any more would just make the thread more of a mess than it was starting to be, and the whole point would get lost and thus once I had you restate it again clearly there was no more value to be gained from going after you on that point at that time. So instead, I wanted to move you onto topics that would be helpful regardless of whether I was wrong or right about your alignment.
3. The choice of who to talk about is as telling as the choice of who not to talk about, I'll learn more about your alignment from you picking who you want to discuss then I will from giving you the topics I want you to discuss. It tells you too much about how I already lean on those topics, and having you drive the discussion lets me get a better feel for you.
4. I'm really surprised you don't get this part. Lots of newer scum buddy people, especially people that defend them. Here he shows that he's suspicious of the fact that you defended him, regardless of whether the fact he stated was misremembered (apparently someone else in that game had said it) he showed that his thought process went "Hey! This guy has taken up a shield for me" -> "Wait, why did he do that?" When as a new scum scared to be in his first big game would have been more hesitant to put any tarnish on his knight's armour.
5. You're mixing up your time periods so bad that this question is just a jumble of words. Your staunch defense of him got me to check out your filter. His subsequent "Hey, why are you defending me?" moment made him more than likely town.
@WaveofShadows
I think Oats was a good lynch because of how useless he was being, it's a shame he turned out to be town, but at least he was a non-self aware miller. That said, I think there were better lynches for that day, Clarity and Rayne being two I think would have been better lynches.
Yamato is almost definitely town, everything about his posts on the second half of day one scream town yamato in a way I don't think he knows how to replicate as scum. Last time I played with him when he was scum I caught him (but was not able to get him lynched before I was killed) because of how glaring the difference is between him being the townie, headstrong Yamato and him trying to emulate the townie headstrong Yamato.
I hope that satisfies your curiousity.
If there was one or two things in particular that lead you to have such a strong town read on me, what would they be?
I'm going to be around for a while doing some filter diving in, so I'm available for questions. It is very likely that I will be unavailable for Thursday, and possibly some or all of Friday (excepting phone posting which I hate hate hate doing). There will be 0 posts from me between midnight tonight, and Thursday night.
Okay, let's get this started with the most important part:
Clarity should be lynched tomorrow, a few people have made cases on why, and they're quite right. He apparently spent 4 hours reading the thread and came up with not even half a case on me, and refused to comment on the lynch that was happening right in front of his eyes all the while flip flopping on the amount of time and effort he supposedly put in.
He's obvious enough at this point that everyone should be on board with his lynch, I don't think there's more that needs to be said about him.
Responses to cases and stuff:
@Clarity
There's nothing in your case to respond to. You obviously just skimmed my filter and tried to pick out what you could skew to look mafia oriented, and you failed miserably at that.
@Rayne
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 24 2013 15:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:
About Sharrant:
First he makes a case on TRN. The case in itself is not bad if you have never seen how TRN plays. But there is this question:
I call him out for this question which i find to be scummy. Sharrant's answer is:
Sharrant later on calls me out for saying; "So you say TRN is actually not attempting to discern who in the thread are the mafia, but you still have a town read on him. Townies should scum hunt, yes?". This is correct, mainly because Sharrant and Vivax both attacked TRN early on in the game, after that TRN went defensive and answered their questions. Sharrant is even adding more fuel into the fire by asking TRN to point him to his games on TL.
Why do you think it is TRN's (or anyone other than yours) job to guide you into his past games? And why do you call me out for poining out the fact (as i have witnessed it myself) that TRN is easy to sidetrack from what he is supposed to do -> find mafia?
Next thing. Sharrant's case on me. His points against me are; BM-policy lynch discussion (understandable as i failed to explain myself clearly enough) and that i called him scummy for asking TRN to point him to his last games. Which i still think is scummy.
Next i explain him my BM vote, he is pleased with my answer, at least that reads so to me.
+ Show Spoiler +
In the same quote he asks me to pick a player to discuss. Why do you want me, your scumread to pick a player to discuss? If i thought you were scum i would be damn sure i wanted to pick the people we discuss (other scummy people).
After that we discuss WoS and GiygaS. I also ask him about geript. I am the one asking all the questions. Note that Sharrant would have liked to discuss Mr.Cheesecake. If i am your scumread, why do you allow me to drive the discussion between us? Why do you not want to find out my scumbuddies when talking with me?
Then Sharrant suddenly changes his scumread on TRN into null/leaning town. The reason is TRN saying i have told him i would use weak townies as town-credit-collectors by defending them. Sharrant takes this at face value. TRN was your scumread at that time, why didn't you take any action to figure out if he was telling the truth or not, as he wasn't?
Then comes in his theory (based on what TRN said) about me trying to gain town-credit for TRN's lynch. The theory is ridiculous in the first place, if people can't see why idk what to say. He also makes a big post about it:
+ Show Spoiler +
At the end of that post he also says his scumread on me has weakened. After that i vote for Sharrant. This is his answer to the case:
+ Show Spoiler +
Now, suddenly i am 100% scum again. But no more is my town-credit-gaining a reason why i am scum. It's all back to the point that i "disguised my policy lynch vote on BM into something else". But he was already okay with my answer. Hell, he does not even answer anything to my case. Why did you make a big post about the theory of me trying to gain credit from defending town!TRN, if it isn't even part of the case against me, what's the point?
TLDR;
1) Why did you not answer me clearly when i asked you why should TRN point you to his past games? And he never did, why didn't you follow it up in any way, if you think that was scummy from him?
2) Why did you say you were pleased with my answer on the BM matter and later on said your whole case against me is based on that?
3) Why did you not want to find out who my "scumbuddies" are when we were discussing people, and why did you let me drive the discussion?
4) Why did you take TRN's words about my "scum strategy" at face value as at that time he was your scumread?
5) Why did you even discuss your theory about me trying to gain credit from TRN when it had apparently nothing to do with your scumread on me and was based on false premises in the first place which you were too lazy to check out and which came from you scumread?
And for the record this is basically everything Sharrant has done this game besides one post where he answers Vivax about Hopeless and couple of posts questioning people with no follow ups at all. I don't see how this is anything near townie behaviour.
About Sharrant:
First he makes a case on TRN. The case in itself is not bad if you have never seen how TRN plays. But there is this question:
I call him out for this question which i find to be scummy. Sharrant's answer is:
Sharrant later on calls me out for saying; "So you say TRN is actually not attempting to discern who in the thread are the mafia, but you still have a town read on him. Townies should scum hunt, yes?". This is correct, mainly because Sharrant and Vivax both attacked TRN early on in the game, after that TRN went defensive and answered their questions. Sharrant is even adding more fuel into the fire by asking TRN to point him to his games on TL.
Why do you think it is TRN's (or anyone other than yours) job to guide you into his past games? And why do you call me out for poining out the fact (as i have witnessed it myself) that TRN is easy to sidetrack from what he is supposed to do -> find mafia?
Next thing. Sharrant's case on me. His points against me are; BM-policy lynch discussion (understandable as i failed to explain myself clearly enough) and that i called him scummy for asking TRN to point him to his last games. Which i still think is scummy.
Next i explain him my BM vote, he is pleased with my answer, at least that reads so to me.
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 22 2013 08:40 Sharrant wrote:
I see. I'll wait until Bill Murray is back in the thread before I say anything more about this then, if I feel the need to say anything more.
Let's give ourselves another topic then. Pick a player who you would like to discuss with me, and I will read their filter while I cook and eat. I would suggest Mr. Cheesecake, but I would prefer it if you picked the candidate for discussion.
I see. I'll wait until Bill Murray is back in the thread before I say anything more about this then, if I feel the need to say anything more.
Let's give ourselves another topic then. Pick a player who you would like to discuss with me, and I will read their filter while I cook and eat. I would suggest Mr. Cheesecake, but I would prefer it if you picked the candidate for discussion.
In the same quote he asks me to pick a player to discuss. Why do you want me, your scumread to pick a player to discuss? If i thought you were scum i would be damn sure i wanted to pick the people we discuss (other scummy people).
After that we discuss WoS and GiygaS. I also ask him about geript. I am the one asking all the questions. Note that Sharrant would have liked to discuss Mr.Cheesecake. If i am your scumread, why do you allow me to drive the discussion between us? Why do you not want to find out my scumbuddies when talking with me?
Then Sharrant suddenly changes his scumread on TRN into null/leaning town. The reason is TRN saying i have told him i would use weak townies as town-credit-collectors by defending them. Sharrant takes this at face value. TRN was your scumread at that time, why didn't you take any action to figure out if he was telling the truth or not, as he wasn't?
Then comes in his theory (based on what TRN said) about me trying to gain town-credit for TRN's lynch. The theory is ridiculous in the first place, if people can't see why idk what to say. He also makes a big post about it:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 22 2013 13:26 Sharrant wrote:
It was part of the thought process that got me to look at you in the first place. Obviously TRN is not getting lynched so there is no credit for you to gain from it anymore. It is even, apparently, something you told TRN that you would do as mafia (though you did not state you would do it specifically to him).
You seem to be misinterpreting my definition of small chance. Small chance of being mafia still meant a greater chance than anyone elses actions in the thread. At that point I figured he probably had about a 40 percent chance of being mafia, if I were to assign a value to it. A small chance, but still greater than I felt anyone else had.
So I went after him because he was the strongest scum read I had. When Rayn made these two posts:
That was a lot more effort than anyone took to explain TRN. Everyone that commented on him, or I asked to comment on him, just stated they thought he was a noob town, but generally people had to be prodded into action.
Rayn came in attacking me with a very weak case because of my case on TRN. At this point, I am very happy because I am sure I have at least one mafia in these 2 players. I am sure after that attack and defense that Rayn is mafia either defending a mafia to deflect a bandwagon before it can start, or defending someone he sees will be lynched later and thus he would be able to go "Hey look, I knew he was town allt he way back then and I defended him!" regardless of whether he was lynched today, or tomorrow, or a week from now. At this point I am 100% sure of Rayn, and 50/50 on TRN.
When TRN came in and said that he had a town read on Rayn despite the inconsistincies myself and others had pointed out, I had TRN down as very likely to be scum. But when he later mentioned how Rayn had told him that he planned to do this exact same thing as scum before, and subsequently moved him to a null read, that was when I was pretty sure that TRN was town.
At this point I am less sure about Rayn being scum than I was then, because his conversations with other players has generally been good since that time, but he's still in my top 3 to lynch. I just haven't decided if there's someone I'd rather lynch more, like say Hopeless.
Any more questions?
It was part of the thought process that got me to look at you in the first place. Obviously TRN is not getting lynched so there is no credit for you to gain from it anymore. It is even, apparently, something you told TRN that you would do as mafia (though you did not state you would do it specifically to him).
You seem to be misinterpreting my definition of small chance. Small chance of being mafia still meant a greater chance than anyone elses actions in the thread. At that point I figured he probably had about a 40 percent chance of being mafia, if I were to assign a value to it. A small chance, but still greater than I felt anyone else had.
So I went after him because he was the strongest scum read I had. When Rayn made these two posts:
That was a lot more effort than anyone took to explain TRN. Everyone that commented on him, or I asked to comment on him, just stated they thought he was a noob town, but generally people had to be prodded into action.
Rayn came in attacking me with a very weak case because of my case on TRN. At this point, I am very happy because I am sure I have at least one mafia in these 2 players. I am sure after that attack and defense that Rayn is mafia either defending a mafia to deflect a bandwagon before it can start, or defending someone he sees will be lynched later and thus he would be able to go "Hey look, I knew he was town allt he way back then and I defended him!" regardless of whether he was lynched today, or tomorrow, or a week from now. At this point I am 100% sure of Rayn, and 50/50 on TRN.
When TRN came in and said that he had a town read on Rayn despite the inconsistincies myself and others had pointed out, I had TRN down as very likely to be scum. But when he later mentioned how Rayn had told him that he planned to do this exact same thing as scum before, and subsequently moved him to a null read, that was when I was pretty sure that TRN was town.
At this point I am less sure about Rayn being scum than I was then, because his conversations with other players has generally been good since that time, but he's still in my top 3 to lynch. I just haven't decided if there's someone I'd rather lynch more, like say Hopeless.
Any more questions?
At the end of that post he also says his scumread on me has weakened. After that i vote for Sharrant. This is his answer to the case:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 23 2013 00:02 Sharrant wrote:
It's a good try, Rayne, but no.
Let's get this out of the way quickly because I have to leave, and there's more important things to do when I'm back.
The reason I looked into you is because of your chainsaw defense of TRN. That fit exactly what I was looking for, so I went through your filter.
I am not trying to lynch you on the merit of you defending TRN, get that through your head. I am going to get you lynched because you are scum. You claim that after posting several times about how miller claims should be a policy lynch, you say that it's not a policy lynch you're pushing on BM. The closest you come to make to a case is "This isn't a miller lynch policy, I'm lynching him because he claimed miller which is scummy" which is exactly the same as saying "No, this isn't a lurker lynch, I'm just lynching because his low activity is scummy". It's just attempting to disguise that you were trying to policy lynch him.
The post I voted for you details exactly why I have you as a scum read. The possibility that you were a townie who made some crazy defense on TRN went out the window when I read through your filter.
If you can't understand that, I can't help you.
It's a good try, Rayne, but no.
Let's get this out of the way quickly because I have to leave, and there's more important things to do when I'm back.
The reason I looked into you is because of your chainsaw defense of TRN. That fit exactly what I was looking for, so I went through your filter.
I am not trying to lynch you on the merit of you defending TRN, get that through your head. I am going to get you lynched because you are scum. You claim that after posting several times about how miller claims should be a policy lynch, you say that it's not a policy lynch you're pushing on BM. The closest you come to make to a case is "This isn't a miller lynch policy, I'm lynching him because he claimed miller which is scummy" which is exactly the same as saying "No, this isn't a lurker lynch, I'm just lynching because his low activity is scummy". It's just attempting to disguise that you were trying to policy lynch him.
The post I voted for you details exactly why I have you as a scum read. The possibility that you were a townie who made some crazy defense on TRN went out the window when I read through your filter.
If you can't understand that, I can't help you.
Now, suddenly i am 100% scum again. But no more is my town-credit-gaining a reason why i am scum. It's all back to the point that i "disguised my policy lynch vote on BM into something else". But he was already okay with my answer. Hell, he does not even answer anything to my case. Why did you make a big post about the theory of me trying to gain credit from defending town!TRN, if it isn't even part of the case against me, what's the point?
TLDR;
1) Why did you not answer me clearly when i asked you why should TRN point you to his past games? And he never did, why didn't you follow it up in any way, if you think that was scummy from him?
2) Why did you say you were pleased with my answer on the BM matter and later on said your whole case against me is based on that?
3) Why did you not want to find out who my "scumbuddies" are when we were discussing people, and why did you let me drive the discussion?
4) Why did you take TRN's words about my "scum strategy" at face value as at that time he was your scumread?
5) Why did you even discuss your theory about me trying to gain credit from TRN when it had apparently nothing to do with your scumread on me and was based on false premises in the first place which you were too lazy to check out and which came from you scumread?
And for the record this is basically everything Sharrant has done this game besides one post where he answers Vivax about Hopeless and couple of posts questioning people with no follow ups at all. I don't see how this is anything near townie behaviour.
1. It's laughable that yous till think that asking for games is a scum tell, but run with it if it makes you happy. He did point me to his games, just not linked them. Not as helpful as I would have hoped he would have been, but he didn't mention any games off site which was the concern.
2. I never stated I was pleased with your answer. I asked you to restate so everyone would see that your answers still did not match up with what you had said earlier in the thread. Pushing that singular point any more would just make the thread more of a mess than it was starting to be, and the whole point would get lost and thus once I had you restate it again clearly there was no more value to be gained from going after you on that point at that time. So instead, I wanted to move you onto topics that would be helpful regardless of whether I was wrong or right about your alignment.
3. The choice of who to talk about is as telling as the choice of who not to talk about, I'll learn more about your alignment from you picking who you want to discuss then I will from giving you the topics I want you to discuss. It tells you too much about how I already lean on those topics, and having you drive the discussion lets me get a better feel for you.
4. I'm really surprised you don't get this part. Lots of newer scum buddy people, especially people that defend them. Here he shows that he's suspicious of the fact that you defended him, regardless of whether the fact he stated was misremembered (apparently someone else in that game had said it) he showed that his thought process went "Hey! This guy has taken up a shield for me" -> "Wait, why did he do that?" When as a new scum scared to be in his first big game would have been more hesitant to put any tarnish on his knight's armour.
5. You're mixing up your time periods so bad that this question is just a jumble of words. Your staunch defense of him got me to check out your filter. His subsequent "Hey, why are you defending me?" moment made him more than likely town.
@WaveofShadows
I think Oats was a good lynch because of how useless he was being, it's a shame he turned out to be town, but at least he was a non-self aware miller. That said, I think there were better lynches for that day, Clarity and Rayne being two I think would have been better lynches.
Yamato is almost definitely town, everything about his posts on the second half of day one scream town yamato in a way I don't think he knows how to replicate as scum. Last time I played with him when he was scum I caught him (but was not able to get him lynched before I was killed) because of how glaring the difference is between him being the townie, headstrong Yamato and him trying to emulate the townie headstrong Yamato.
I hope that satisfies your curiousity.
If there was one or two things in particular that lead you to have such a strong town read on me, what would they be?
I'm going to be around for a while doing some filter diving in, so I'm available for questions. It is very likely that I will be unavailable for Thursday, and possibly some or all of Friday (excepting phone posting which I hate hate hate doing). There will be 0 posts from me between midnight tonight, and Thursday night.
For starters just the fact that you cared enough to respond to my buried, 'inane' line of questioning that Rayn and TRN seem to hate so much further cements my townread on you. Also wtf I don't think I read the flip, just looked at the colour---he WAS a fucking miller. I agree with your thoughts on Oats and feel a little better about being wrong. Yes you've definitely satisfied my curiousity. Now you mention a Clarity lynch...I agree that his entry into the thread was very scummy-looking but he just doesn't feel like a good lynch to me for reasons that I can't remember right now. I have a bunch of re-reading to do and an eventual case to post...when is frigging Daypost?
