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11589 Posts
On April 15 2013 13:34 Mocsta wrote:
The lowest fruit for me are
Vivax // Oats // Shevlocke
We can do checks of whatever, but we are going to have to stop being lazy and revert back to traditoinal filter diving.
The most removed player in that list is Shevlocke. He needs to go.
Okay, so let's look at Shelvocke, because when I went back to look at votes D1, scum were not on him.
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On April 15 2013 13:34 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 13:33 Vivax wrote:
It shows that you had a special perspective to watch things happen, it doesn't look like something a townie would notice easily, so late since D1. Are you just doing this because you think I'm going to call you town for going all tunnel-mode on me?
If you really are town then try to convince me. There's a lot looking bad in our filter. Ideally convince me by finding someone who looks worse than you. Oats might be a good start, you mentioned him just before.
Not asking you to do this for me, asking you to do this for the game.
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On April 15 2013 13:34 Mocsta wrote:
The lowest fruit for me are
Vivax // Oats // Shevlocke
We can do checks of whatever, but we are going to have to stop being lazy and revert back to traditoinal filter diving.
The most removed player in that list is Shevlocke. He needs to go.
duuuuude.
Why not yamato? Does he not have the ego thing playing scum?
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Why did you say all mafia went to Shelvocke/VE if that wasn't the case though?
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On April 15 2013 13:37 Vivax wrote:
Why did you say all mafia went to Shelvocke/VE if that wasn't the case though?
I distinctly remember that being the case, for some reason.
I was wrong.
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On April 15 2013 13:37 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 13:34 Mocsta wrote:
The lowest fruit for me are
Vivax // Oats // Shevlocke
We can do checks of whatever, but we are going to have to stop being lazy and revert back to traditoinal filter diving.
The most removed player in that list is Shevlocke. He needs to go. duuuuude. Why not yamato? Does he not have the ego thing playing scum?
Cos Yam wasnt posting in Hydra or this.
He prob was actually busy. And hes back to giving a shit about the game. Once i see the fruits of his labour, will be ina position to know if its 4 low fruit or keep at 3.
Look; if i was last draft pick i would be demotivated.
its actually hillarious in hindsight for town to be shafted on Justice Vig by scum!!
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Sorry guys i know this is lazy and uselesss but i really cant remember the checks from Night 2.
Can someone please summarise them?
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On April 08 2013 16:05 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 09:36 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 08:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 08:23 Shelvocke wrote:
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia. Elaborate please? Do you think I was chasing you for funsies the other day? I dont think you scum anymore.. i just think your bad town But conviction was there, and I think Shevlocke comment was fair (regarding me at least) No. I want to know why Shelvocke thinks i'm town. Read my filter: + Show Spoiler +On April 07 2013 15:33 Shelvocke wrote:I don't really think rayn is mafia. His play does look different from those town quotes you had, but it doesn't look like that mafia game either. The only part of that game where he just suddenly jumps is the part where he votes for Krefla and even then he has a reason because Krefla just came in right before the deadline. The fact that he seems a lot more impulsive in this game than he has been before is something that points to him being town. I feel he would be a lot more careful and safe as mafia. The plan switch looks kind of strange, but his overall attitude makes him more likely town. On April 07 2013 15:52 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 07 2013 15:39 Shelvocke wrote:
What do you mean? He seems to jump around based on what's going on in the thread. Thank you. so impulsive is then defined as: in response to others; rather than in creating new ideas. I dont see what is townie about that. Scum can be equally impulsive in regards to thread sentiment. However, I dont particularly care about the action itself: do you think his motives for "jumping around" is founded upon processing new information to update the conclusion? I get what you're saying, but I've never seen a new mafia player be so crazy. I don't really understand the reasons for some of the stuff he does but it seems to me that he sees one post and then just makes up his mind based on that. Usually new mafia are much more safe and concerned about their appearance. It's possible he's some kind of mafia gosu but frankly that's not the impression I get from him. Something about this situation really strikes me the wrong way. There was still plenty of time left in the day and an Artanis lynch was nowhere certain. Like shooting gonzaw pretty much guarantees an Artanis lynch and I can't think of a good reason for mafia to do that if Artanis is mafia. I'm rereading the thread right now. Not entirely sure who to kill right now, but it's not Artanis. ##Unvote
Literally the most incriminating thing of all time.
You know when I said that his post looked bad, Vivax? It was this post.
I had the EXACT OPPOSITE reaction, but here he comes with this.
On April 08 2013 07:38 Shelvocke wrote:
I like gonzaw's case. Artanis's stuff on geript does looks unnecessarily agressive and fake. I'm voting for him.
##Vote Artanis[Xp]
That's his original vote post (and only justification) for Artanis in the midst of town sheeping Gonzaw. Looks like a bus, smells like a bus, definitely is a bus.
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I posted those in opposite order, but do note that those are his only two posts about Artanis in the entirety of day 1.
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And Shevlocke being treated as town (by me) gives him the confidence to not concede.
which is the point i was talking about.. a town should be particpating now, MORE THAN EVER.
Hes not pressured, and feels no guilt.
The ppl making cases on Shevlocke early game, were town too (Austin etc)
SHEVLOCKE MUST BURN
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On April 15 2013 13:41 Mocsta wrote:
Sorry guys i know this is lazy and uselesss but i really cant remember the checks from Night 2.
Can someone please summarise them?
Night 1: I had a green check on austin. Austin had green+inventor check on sn0. S*B had green+America check on MZ. Vivax checked austin. You shot, so no check.
Night 2: I had red check on BM. Vivax had green check on you. You had Vanilla check on Shelvocke. S&B had green+Vanilla check on yamato.
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Yeah that does look bad, he picked the wifom side of things in favor of Artanis.
Has Shelvocke been DT-checked yet? If Oats is town then he's the only scum I could see having picked 8 1
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Thnx Kei.
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Vivax/Kei should both check Shelvocke, in case he shoots one of you.
I will role check Vivax.
If i die & Shelvocke returns green.. then kill Vivax.
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Sound good?
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Eh, I will try doing the nightpost the moment I have some spare time, a sheet of paper and a pen. Sorry.
Edit: oh i suck
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You can be sure that scum's going to shoot you now -.-
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11589 Posts
I think we should just kill Shelvocke regardless of checks
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I went through flipped scum filters, they make me think Shelvocke might not be scum actually.
Artanis wanted him dead, called him scum.
VE sounded like he was setting himself up to lynch him/found him suspicious.
OO defended MZ against Shelvocke.
BM did kinda avoid talking directly about him. Called him a hero once though.
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Scum bussed hard this game, especially day 1.
Are you really that surprised?
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On April 15 2013 13:54 Vivax wrote:
I went through flipped scum filters, they make me think Shelvocke might not be scum actually.
Artanis wanted him dead, called him scum.
VE sounded like he was setting himself up to lynch him/found him suspicious.
OO defended MZ against Shelvocke.
BM did kinda avoid talking directly about him. Called him a hero once though.
Thats the conclusion I came to Day 3.
But, Shelvocke hasnt done anything since.
Scum havnt conceded, even though seriously outnumbered. So they obviously arent under pressure.
The corollary is we havnt been pressuring scum (esp because SnB was target du jour)
So that leaves Shelvocke and Oats.
Im honsetly not sure if scum oats has the balls to convince 3 ppl he is town. Especially now that Kei has access to the qt (and still didnt post the logs).
So that leaves Shelvocke as the most viable lynch.
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Anyways, my problems with Shelvocke being scum:
+ Show Spoiler [From Artanis] +On April 08 2013 06:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Here's my reads on all those who are voted. VisceraEyesDefensive play, agrees with a lot of things in the thread. Seems complacent. The only game I remember that I played with VE was LI in which he was in everyone's face as scum. I also observed his play in Hydra Mini Mafia which he gave up in as soon as he got caught. This game feels like neither. He created a bad case on RO. Rereading Geript's case on him however does show a few valid points that point towards VE being scum which he never answered. Rather than defending himself, VE started attacking people that jumped on the wagon which isn't alignment indicative to me, as it's a both a valid way of finding scum and an easy way to dodge responsibility. However, I don't like his 180 going from his initial read of RO to Deconduo over one post that really didn't mean much. Leaning scum. VivaxVivax is Vivax. In all previous games I've played with him he's rolled scum, but sometimes the host accidentally flipped him green. This game I feel like he's playing better than any game he's had before. There's still Vivax moments of trying to be right where everyone else is wrong, but he's being cooperative. I see no reason why he wouldn't stick to his unreadable meta if he rolled scum. Town. Restraining OrderThe case on him was weak. Has done fairly little, but nothing that suggests a scum or a town mindset. Null on him. KeirathiSeems willing to want to figure the game out. Small thing that bothered me was that he had a plan regarding people picking roles to counter scumpicks, yet also advocating that everyone just picks the roles they want. Other than that, he's had a very constructive attitude and has been scumhunting and paranoid. Likely town. PalmarHas a hilarious plan, never actually goes anywhere with it. Trolls around all game. Throws a few accusations but never substantiates them. Says BM is scum but never goes anywhere with it, then jumps on the VE wagon as soon as he notices no one else is putting in the effort to get BM lynched. After checking out RED Team's Prize (where he was blue) he always pushed his own ideas. He asked people what they thought, but nothing that came close to sheeping. He's a lot more disinterested than what I've seen in that game. Leaning scum. ShelvockeHis filter is fairly empty. His D1 plan was "pick whatever you like" then never actually pushed it. Rather than contributing to plans, he just calls all of them bad. Spends a lot of time on setup talk then jumps on the VE wagon as well. He never replies to the case made on him or any suspicion laid on him at all. Avoiding responsibility for his reads. There's really nothing in his filter to suggest towniness. Scum. RaynpelikoneetContradicted my RNG plan without a real reason. Nominates himself as towniest very quickly. Calls everyone that pushed ideas town. Randomly passes by scumreads whilst only having talked about setup before then, doesn't explain why. Massive amount of oneliners that clutter up the thread and say very little/nothing. His paranoia and flailing about in the last two pages of his filter make me hesitant, but still leaning scum. StrongandbigBasically did nothing until mid D1, but I like this post. Pointing a lot of fingers at people for good reasons. Leaning town. DeconduoPlaying a fairly timid game, but I can follow his thought process very well. It's hard to really put a finger to, but all his posts speak to me from a town viewpoint and VE's reason for voting Deconduo feels weak. I'm willing to vote for VE, Palmar, Shevlocke and Raynpelikoneet, with a preference for Shevlocke. On April 08 2013 18:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Shelvocke is still my top priority. VE, Rayn, Sinani and Palmar are all lynches I would support as well. On April 08 2013 22:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I'm talking about the people that I'm questioned about. Shelvocke hasn't even replied to any of this: + Show Spoiler [He's responded to none of this] +On April 08 2013 06:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Shelvocke
His filter is fairly empty. His D1 plan was "pick whatever you like" then never actually pushed it. Rather than contributing to plans, he just calls all of them bad. Spends a lot of time on setup talk then jumps on the VE wagon as well. He never replies to the case made on him or any suspicion laid on him at all. Avoiding responsibility for his reads. There's really nothing in his filter to suggest towniness. Scum. On April 07 2013 10:57 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Alright so like I said earlier, I have a pretty strong scum read on Shevlocke and here’s why. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote:
Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:19 Shelvocke wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads. Lettuce ask a very simple question here. How does one assign a role to a player who could conceivably pick at any spot? Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:42 Shelvocke wrote:On April 04 2013 13:33 Sharrant wrote:On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have. I'm interested to hear this combination. I can see many ways that scum would be able to kill a player knowing their role. Yes, having an extractor AND BloodyCobbler would net them 1 kill per cycle extra. But that's for 2 roles, as opposed to having an assassin and saying "green" every single time and getting 1 kill per cycle extra for only a single role. Now, there are combinations I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to give anyone ideas, if you're thinking of anything involving the politician, there's a good chance I've thought of that as well, there are ways to stop that. But if you think there's something that is specifically of horrendous consequence for this plan, please do elaborate. If this plan is bad I would like you to change my mind, otherwise I would like to change yours. I'm going to bed now, if I get bored I might wander back and read more, but that's doubtful. Good night, everyone. I hope you're all as excited for the draft as I am. As far as I know, that's not how assassin works. It requires the person to either say "Red" or their role name. I'd rather not share what the combination is, as it's a bit unusual and I doubt if anyone on mafia will be easily able to figure it out. But the fact that I was able to think of it definitely means that someone else might also recognize it. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:09 Shelvocke wrote:
The reason why this plan is awful goes beyond how well you can identify 5 town reads 16 hours in when setup is the only thing to talk about (which is simply pitifully if you arent aware). There is simply no way to force people to pick specific numbers. I wont be following it. What do these posts have in common? They are all worthless. Now this wouldn’t be such a problem except that he also has these posts: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:17 Shelvocke wrote:
[8][2]
How the hell am I below mocsta. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:44 Shelvocke wrote:On April 07 2013 06:40 Vivax wrote:On April 07 2013 06:36 geript wrote:On April 07 2013 06:35 Ghor wrote:
Can everyone put the numbers he sent to the hosts into his signature so I can rebuild the list without digging for needles in the haystack? There is no need for you to keep them secret if you are town.
Stop this. The time for doing this is over. There is no reason to suspect people solely based off of the numbers they supposedly picked. Don't waste anyone's time with bull like that. No, two scum won't pick the same numbers ever. It's valuable information. Unless you can give rational explanation you have no argument and only want to keep us in the dark. In Pick Your Power Insane, three mafia all picked the same first number. It's not a valid argument. So there have been two options to speculate about worthless things so far (picking plans and who got what numbers), and shevlocke has jumped on them both. Does he have any reads? Thus far his one “scum read” is VE . His argument against VE is “he’s faking contributions by talking about irrelevant things” this is exactly what shevlocke himself has been doing which is ironic. So let’s quickly review, shevlocke has posted about both of the worthless topics the thread has discussed so far. On top of that, he accuses his only scum read of doing exactly what he himself is doing. Shevlocke is doing his best to blend in by providing “opinions” on the things that don’t matter and his one read is completely worthless. We’re not too far into day 1 but I want shevlocke’s name out there as a lynch candidate. On April 07 2013 11:43 austinmcc wrote:I'm actually really digging that Shelvocke read. Yes, most of the posts are worthless, but the VE vote feels weak as well. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 05:10 Shelvocke wrote:On April 06 2013 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
I just woke up and I have a fucking crazy idea.
What if everyone who picks KP roles promises not to use them? I was looking at the role list and it seems that scum KP is fixed at 1? So it seems like scum will be focusing on trying to increase their KP (in a game this size).
What if we all just don't use KP roles and lynch the fucking piss out of anyone who does? I mean obviously scum aren't going to claim if/when they do, but if we can get townies into the KP roles this would be a really good way to try and limit mafia KP. ^Mafia He's either not reading the thread at all or he's trying to fake a contribution as the idea that he brings up is one that has been repeated by a bunch of other players and is crap anyway. Additionally, VisceraEyes is known for taking ridiculous shots himself and doing whatever he feels like as town so it's very out of character for him to suggest that these types of players should be auto-lynched. VE isn't reading/is faking a contribution. This can be scummy, but at this point in the game there are A LOT of players who fit that criteria. The second bit, VE being...hypocritical because he often is ridiculous and is suggesting people not be ridiculous is just dumb. I'm often an idiot. I don't suggest other people are. Some players are confusing/lurky, they don't suggest that other people be confusing/lurky. Heck, the VE personality in Personality 2 just poked at VE's claiming, which, if anything, should reinforce the idea that VE might not recommend to others that they play how he has in certain past games. Half that two sentence read is just...badwrong. The other half is true of a number of players, with no reason given why VE is singled out. And ze vote? Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 05:55 Shelvocke wrote:
If VE isn't going to play, we kill him. He hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town and is avoiding discussing anything of value.
##Vote VisceraEyes
strongandbig also looks very likely to be mafia. In particular the fact that he considered the number picking strategy to be extremely important but then failed to provide any original thoughts is very suspect. He also seemed very concerned in his pregame posts about roles but didn't provide any insight about them after the game started. 24 hours later. Not important because he didn't vote earlier, he couldn't, but important because discussion of VE has popped up here and there throughout the thread during those 24 hours. Shelvocke, who has really only called out VE at this point (apart from asking gonzaw if his secret scumread was snb (which he now adds to)), doesn't seem to care about anything that's been posted about/by VE during those 24 hours. Note that he HAS followed up on snb, looks to have reread snb before making that post. But his vote post on VE has more meat, more indication that Shelvocke is scumhunting, when he brings up snb, not VE, who he is actually voting for. Do not like. ##Vote: Shelvocke Since then, he's made a horribly reasoned vote on me. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 07:38 Shelvocke wrote:
I like gonzaw's case. Artanis's stuff on geript does looks unnecessarily agressive and fake. I'm voting for him.
##Vote Artanis[Xp] Randomly goes back to the Geript stuff which happened ages ago yet he never cast suspicion on it back then. He never even mentioned it. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:05 Shelvocke wrote:On April 08 2013 09:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 09:36 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 08:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 08:23 Shelvocke wrote:
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia. Elaborate please? Do you think I was chasing you for funsies the other day? I dont think you scum anymore.. i just think your bad town But conviction was there, and I think Shevlocke comment was fair (regarding me at least) No. I want to know why Shelvocke thinks i'm town. Read my filter: + Show Spoiler +On April 07 2013 15:33 Shelvocke wrote:I don't really think rayn is mafia. His play does look different from those town quotes you had, but it doesn't look like that mafia game either. The only part of that game where he just suddenly jumps is the part where he votes for Krefla and even then he has a reason because Krefla just came in right before the deadline. The fact that he seems a lot more impulsive in this game than he has been before is something that points to him being town. I feel he would be a lot more careful and safe as mafia. The plan switch looks kind of strange, but his overall attitude makes him more likely town. On April 07 2013 15:52 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 07 2013 15:39 Shelvocke wrote:
What do you mean? He seems to jump around based on what's going on in the thread. Thank you. so impulsive is then defined as: in response to others; rather than in creating new ideas. I dont see what is townie about that. Scum can be equally impulsive in regards to thread sentiment. However, I dont particularly care about the action itself: do you think his motives for "jumping around" is founded upon processing new information to update the conclusion? I get what you're saying, but I've never seen a new mafia player be so crazy. I don't really understand the reasons for some of the stuff he does but it seems to me that he sees one post and then just makes up his mind based on that. Usually new mafia are much more safe and concerned about their appearance. It's possible he's some kind of mafia gosu but frankly that's not the impression I get from him. Something about this situation really strikes me the wrong way. There was still plenty of time left in the day and an Artanis lynch was nowhere certain. Like shooting gonzaw pretty much guarantees an Artanis lynch and I can't think of a good reason for mafia to do that if Artanis is mafia. I'm rereading the thread right now. Not entirely sure who to kill right now, but it's not Artanis. ##Unvote Randomly doesn't want to vote for me anymore because of WIFOM. What Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:18 Shelvocke wrote:
I think yamato shot gonzaw. I can't prove it, but it's the explanation that makes best sense to me right now going by people's reactions. I'm not entirely sure if he's the kind of person who would do that as town, but just skimming through the last normalish town game of his (Town Aint Big Mafia), I think it's entirely possible. Going to sleep on this, but that's where I'm at right now. The fuck? None of this makes any sense as town. Randomly unvoting me because of WIFOM, randomly accusing Yamato of shooting Gonzaw when Yamato has been agreeing with Gonzaw, it just doesn't make any sense from a town viewpoint. He's been afk for the rest, and all the times he was here he's played scummily. On April 09 2013 00:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:02 Vivax wrote:
Artanis let's talk reads, why should we be lynching Shelvocke over Sno_man? Sn0_Man is afk. Shelvocke is part afk part horrendous filter. I'd rather go for the second. On April 09 2013 03:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Welp, looks like I'm still alive. I'm fine with a VE lynch. Caller's obv not going to die today. Gonna place my vote and afk.
These honestly feel like the typical "A bunch of townies are making a case on this other townie. Time to hope on the wagon" type of scum posts. The last one is particularly interesting though. Notice how Shelvocke was always his "strongest scum read". But as soon as Caller actually pulls the Showtime hammer, his top read switches over to VE. Why? IMO, it's because he knows that Caller is town and if he gets the lynched switched over to VE before the ability goes through, then when VE flips scum, he just inherently looks better. And, if Shelvocke was scum (since we know he's a VT), why not try to get the lynch onto him instead of VE? I think it's because Shelvocke is town and VE was the only possible way for a scum Artanis so salvage any town cred if Caller's shot was actually fake.
Also, this little tidbit I find interesting:
On April 10 2013 12:26 Shelvocke wrote:![[image loading]](http://content.internetvideoarchive.com/content/photos/164/000692_40.jpg) I talk with my guns. ##Kill Meapak_Ziph
On April 10 2013 12:27 Bill Murray wrote:
in comes Shelvocke, being a hero
If Shelvocke was scum with BM, he would have known that the shot was fake. However, it feels natural, not forced. I think BM actually thought Shelvocke was shooting MZ there.
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