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On April 05 2013 00:20 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:18 deconduo wrote:On April 05 2013 00:14 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:09 deconduo wrote:On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? Pretty much. This is not a new opinion, I've said the same in every PYP game I've played. On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? Good question actually. If you take the drafting part out of the equation, the game plays out pretty much the same as any insane type setup. Apart from that, you can start deducing roles from vanilla claims, flips and actions taken. Some roles will be pretty obvious once they are used, such as janitor, PoD etc. Once you know that a role is in the game you can start working out who has it, and if they've used it in a pro or anti-town manner. On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:
You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? You can try your hardest to win without taking advantage of what you consider to be faults in the system. As I said, if people prefer to play to win no matter what, I'll go along with them. I'm just stating my objection in the hopes that other people will feel the same was as I do. If cheesing every game gave you the best chance to win, would you still do it? You define it as cheesing. BC did not. There's no reason to needlessly eliminate strategies that are beneficial to your wincon if they are perfectly within the rules, and should have been considered in the balancing of the game. That's why the Koreans were so good at "cheese" early on in SC2, because while the westerners were being idealistic in their play, the Koreans played to win, and did. If mafia can't figure out how to combat this strategy within this setup, then they deserve to lose, because I have specifically talked about counterplay. I think you've misunderstood me. I'm objecting to it because its not fun, not because its unfair to the mafia. That's completely aside from the point I'm making. If I felt it was anti-town I would still be against it. Cheesing is good to throw in every once in a while to mix things up, but if you did it every game it would be boring as fuck. I feel the same way about the picking strats. Why not let everyone pick what they want for once, instead of forcing everyone to pick based on the position they get in the draft. Do you want mafia getting all of the ridiculous OP roles and auto-winning the game? I don't. So I plan against that happening.
That can only happen if all the mafia get the top positions in the draft. And even then, it wouldn't even be close to giving them an auto win.
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11589 Posts
On April 05 2013 00:22 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:20 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:18 deconduo wrote:On April 05 2013 00:14 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:09 deconduo wrote:On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? Pretty much. This is not a new opinion, I've said the same in every PYP game I've played. On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? Good question actually. If you take the drafting part out of the equation, the game plays out pretty much the same as any insane type setup. Apart from that, you can start deducing roles from vanilla claims, flips and actions taken. Some roles will be pretty obvious once they are used, such as janitor, PoD etc. Once you know that a role is in the game you can start working out who has it, and if they've used it in a pro or anti-town manner. On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:
You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? You can try your hardest to win without taking advantage of what you consider to be faults in the system. As I said, if people prefer to play to win no matter what, I'll go along with them. I'm just stating my objection in the hopes that other people will feel the same was as I do. If cheesing every game gave you the best chance to win, would you still do it? You define it as cheesing. BC did not. There's no reason to needlessly eliminate strategies that are beneficial to your wincon if they are perfectly within the rules, and should have been considered in the balancing of the game. That's why the Koreans were so good at "cheese" early on in SC2, because while the westerners were being idealistic in their play, the Koreans played to win, and did. If mafia can't figure out how to combat this strategy within this setup, then they deserve to lose, because I have specifically talked about counterplay. I think you've misunderstood me. I'm objecting to it because its not fun, not because its unfair to the mafia. That's completely aside from the point I'm making. If I felt it was anti-town I would still be against it. Cheesing is good to throw in every once in a while to mix things up, but if you did it every game it would be boring as fuck. I feel the same way about the picking strats. Why not let everyone pick what they want for once, instead of forcing everyone to pick based on the position they get in the draft. Do you want mafia getting all of the ridiculous OP roles and auto-winning the game? I don't. So I plan against that happening. That can only happen if all the mafia get the top positions in the draft. And even then, it wouldn't even be close to giving them an auto win.
I'd still rather it not happen. If we, as town, don't attempt to coordinate something like this, we are essentially conceding mafia's coordination advantage immediately, which is a bad thing to do. I know there are people who play games to have fun, and I understand that, but please do play along, because I derive my fun in mafia from winning.
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ANYWAY, let's talk about Oats/Caller.
Pick one and call him mafia for a good reason. Gogo.
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On April 05 2013 00:27 yamato77 wrote:
ANYWAY, let's talk about Oats/Caller.
Pick one and call him mafia for a good reason. Gogo.
What.
HAHA
HAHA
do that yourself 
Also think about it for a good second. maybe 2.
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Back on topic.
Any objections to previous strategy employed by players from Redux?
Why not and new strategy if you disapprove
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but yamato i thought you said
(your post) is retarded and an anti-town sentiment. While it isn't alignment indicative, it is worth me saying; ignore the fuck out of Caller. This discussion has real meaning, or you can be sure that the no-bullshit player in yamato wouldn't be having it. You are not mafia for having this discussion, and real reads can be gotten here.
so wait first im retarded and anti-town but not alignment indicative (if im anti-town but that doesn't point anything about my alignment, what the fuck could that mean? hmm?), then you tell people to ignore me, then you suddenly think im mafia. but only after oats is trying to scumdefend me.
You've spent the entire early part of the game essentially trying to instigate debate and win credibility points through them. You claim that you're a no-bullshit person, then you start bullshitting. You claim I'm anti-town, but that doesn't mean I'm mafia. Then you about-face and claim that I am mafia. Then you start bullshitting and requesting bullshit that I am mafia. Given this, after receiving a few half-hearted answers, you'll claim that you just think I'm a stupid townie and that you were just scumhunting.
ACTUAL FOS on yamato77.
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also if yamato flips, I'm pretty damn sure oats is mafia too.
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On April 05 2013 00:36 Caller wrote:
also if yamato flips, I'm pretty damn sure oats is mafia too.
what?
Explain the association please
Up to 5 now.
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just you two, actually, i withdraw any other accusations for now.
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On April 05 2013 00:41 Caller wrote:
just you two, actually, i withdraw any other accusations for now.
keep going and explain something now that you somehow got rid of your accent?
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don't need to. it should be obvious.
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11589 Posts
On April 05 2013 00:36 Caller wrote:but yamato i thought you said Show nested quote +(your post) is retarded and an anti-town sentiment. While it isn't alignment indicative, it is worth me saying; ignore the fuck out of Caller. This discussion has real meaning, or you can be sure that the no-bullshit player in yamato wouldn't be having it. You are not mafia for having this discussion, and real reads can be gotten here.
so wait first im retarded and anti-town but not alignment indicative (if im anti-town but that doesn't point anything about my alignment, what the fuck could that mean? hmm?), then you tell people to ignore me, then you suddenly think im mafia. but only after oats is trying to scumdefend me. You've spent the entire early part of the game essentially trying to instigate debate and win credibility points through them. You claim that you're a no-bullshit person, then you start bullshitting. You claim I'm anti-town, but that doesn't mean I'm mafia. Then you about-face and claim that I am mafia. Then you start bullshitting and requesting bullshit that I am mafia. Given this, after receiving a few half-hearted answers, you'll claim that you just think I'm a stupid townie and that you were just scumhunting. ACTUAL FOS on yamato77.
Thanks for ruining the point.
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On April 05 2013 00:42 Caller wrote:
don't need to. it should be obvious.
Im dumb and stupid
Spell it out for me please
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11589 Posts
Thought process here:
I don't think the things you guys are doing are alignment indicative, as you've actually noticed.
But if I ask for opinions, and watch what people do in response, it is easy to catch lazy mafia. They didn't reads the thread and jump at the chance to call one of you mafia for a bad reason,seemingly agreeing with me.
But yeah, whatever doubts I did have about your alignment, you erased. Good stuff.
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On April 05 2013 00:42 Caller wrote:
don't need to. it should be obvious.
yamato isn't so much, but agreed on oats.
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On April 05 2013 00:43 Oatsmaster wrote:Im dumb and stupid Spell it out for me please
Troll Caller vs Legit Caller.
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Damn everyone jumping on the Caller wagon.
Best part about this.
Discussion is off the role assigning thing.
discuss please
On April 05 2013 00:08 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:03 Sharrant wrote:On April 05 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote:
Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate. You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point. Please dont. Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM' Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum? I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time And what, pray tell, is a more important way to spend our time at this very moment? What would you rather be discussing? I think we should be discussing which roles we want to deny but I dont think its alignment indicative at all. Sorry if I didnt make that clear. Ok on to the role denying part. 1. How many roles do we want to deny. Im thinking either 2-3 I think it gets substantial less useful as a strategy the more roles you want to deny 2. Which are those roles? Im thinking the same as Redux CPR doc and Janitor basically.
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As far as I see it, you need to actually block about 5 roles. You really have to start with Thief, Copycat and Role Swapper. Then you have another 2-5 exceptionally pro-scum roles (janitor, vote rigger, hooker, kingmaker). Sidenote on being the King--Newer players please do not use the King's ability to lynch someone if you are given the option; IT was given to you for a reason... DON"T USE IT. It also doesn't prevent scum from grabbing less good, but very acceptable roles like JOAT, Vig, Emperor, Fake Steve. Any sort of KP role is very good for scum.
The problem that I'm having with the current plan is that it even if you prevent the 5 super scum powers really what you're doing is giving them exactly which 'acceptable but not superpowered' roles they can choose freely.
New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list.
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So CPR doc isnt a KP role. Rightttt
I agree with the KP role thing.
Your plan is people in 1-4 randomly choosing from this list?
and 5-8 choosing from another list? Or something else?
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Right, if we get people to choose from a list even if mafia go early, they have a problem selecting from a list above them and must instead pick from a list below them. While they'll be able to coordinate things as such, it still makes them pick less powerful roles in general instead of more powerful roles.
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EPT
