EPTSo out of reading that game Austin,
What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do?
Boardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power - Page 15
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
So out of reading that game Austin, What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do? | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote: "Janitor" Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once. My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed. Real flips are never revealed | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. he is mafia vote for him or else you're scum | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Thats 3 people and counting Caller, keep going and I will have great fun postgame  | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:17 Oatsmaster wrote: The difference between Personality 2 and this game was that personality 2 was a closed setup.. So out of reading that game Austin, What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do? The reason janitor is powerful has to do with what you saw in Personality 2 (if you can't just intuit how no-flipping N1 could be crazy good). Heck...Aperture 1 had a janitor use early when a bunch of people died iirc. Janitor + big game + lots of KP = big lack of information for town. It's a strong role, even though all it does is mess with information. The difference in setup does not make a role that mucks with flips a weak one. I think we need to pick numbers for now. Next phase is where plans can really be hatched. I like the idea of everyone taking a public stance as to 3 roles that they think are the strongest for mafia and should be denied, as well as specifically WHY they chose those. That is something we can do now, pre-order and pre-role-picking. This list is different from that list, and we may want to deny different things than they did in that game. It's not the biggest stance ever, but it forces each player to take a stance on what roles are pro-mafia, and so also has the effect of limiting someone's ability to later say that they chose x, used the power, but tried to do so in a pro-town way. We also can look through who is/isn't spamming, who actually has good/town-favored ideas, and start making reads. But hopefully you've already started doing that and it should go without saying. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I'm glad to see there's so much discussion, but I still believe after reading all of it that we need to coordinate to eliminate a few key roles. Not very many, but there's a few roles that are incredibly anti-town that need to be taken care of. Let's try and get everyone on the same page here. Town does not need roles to win the game. They're nice, they're a cool added bonus, but we honestly don't need them. If I had the choice I would rather have every single townie vanilla if it meant mafia were all vanilla and locked at 1 KP. That would be beautiful, and should be an easy win for town. I don't think there's anyone that can disagree with that, that is a severely underpowered set up for scum. How does this relate to the draft order? By using the draft order and a proper picking strategy we can effectively move the town towards this position. There's more than one part to this however. We want as many conflicting draft numbers as possible. This benefits town because the odds are in our favour that town will come out ahead based on random number selection. The most preferrable case being town picks 1-18 and the mafia conflict with 5of those numbers. Obviously this situation is unrealistic as we will have some townies conflict with other townies, but generally the odds are in our favour to come out ahead as long as no one reveals their numbers. We're done there. I don't think there's anymore that can be said. Random number picks favour town. So let's move onto the drafting phase. How can we create the most effective town picks, while simultaneously creating the least effective mafia picks? The most beneficial scenario for town is that every mafia picks a role that town has already chosen. This is highly unlikely, but would be amazing. The least beneficial for town would be townies picking roles that other townies have picked but not the roles mafia did. This is somewhat subjective, but I believe this to be the worst because A) mafia get all their roles B) town does not have information on what those roles are or where in the draft they were chosen. There are other bad scenarios but I think this takes the cake. So how do we move away from the second scenario and move towards the first? First we need to determine the key roles that are too strong for mafia to get at any point. I believe them to be Thief, PoD, Inventor and Janitor. If everyone can agree I would have slots 1-4 on the draft order pick those powers. Why those powers specifically? Because they are all INCREDIBLY anti-town, and are all visible powers. What I mean by visible powers is that we will know when they have been activated either by the night going into a second night, or the kills all being vanished etc. Then we know to lynch into the player that has that role. If town gets one of these roles (except Inventor/thief): Don't use it ever. I know you wanted some super special ultra role, but you're doing more for the town this way. If town gets inventor: Be as pro town as you possibly can be, this is a great role for town to have. We should see lots of bullet proof vests, and similar defensive or investigative items coming out from you. If town gets thief: Sit on it. There's a chance that it may become important later on, but it shouldn't be used early game. If mafia get any of these roles: We'll know exactly which one has the role, so they cannot use it.If we see the power, we lynch into them. So they're effectively VTs except for in one scenario which I will talk about later. So by assigning those 4 roles we have one result: We force a pro town inventor (if mafia oriented inventions come out we know who to lynch), we eliminate both PoD AND Janitor, and possibly cause thief to become a pro town role. And the kicker of this, is that if mafia is one of the top 4 spots we force them to act as a vanilla scum. Should we have a plan after those roles? I don't think so. I think everyone picking what they want after that point is the best solution for town. This will cause the most conflicts with mafia, and as town should generally be higher in the draft order we will have more conflicts for roles with mafia. Everyone past that point should excercise good judgement on which roles they think they should either attempt to get for town, or to deny mafia. Pick something you can play well. Cautions and problems: Problem: Leaving a scum alive with PoD means they can just wait until LyLo or MyLo to activate their power and it will endgame town in most situations. Solution: We should not put the people with these roles above reproach. Everyone in the picking order (1-4) should be examined just as thoroughly as everyone else. I don't think a policy lynch on the power holder is required, we should be able to decide going into a scenario like that if they've been acting pro-town or not. There's also a high possibility of the player being killed with so much KP likely flying around. Problem: Role Swapper and Copy Cat stealing one of the 1-4 roles I don't have an immediate solution to this problem, however copy cat would require them to kill one of those people and use a dayvig right away to steal the role. So they have to waste a kill based on draft order rather than player involvement. They may have to kill the scummiest looking townie to get a role, they may have to kill the towniest townie. Those are the worst and best case scenarios. Role Swapper might be one to look into about halfway down the draft order if someone is confident enough playing as a likely vanilla townie. That would either deny the role, or let us know it was one of the top x picks. At best this plan will deny mafia roles and make them easier to track when we start having flips and claims to back up our information, and quite likely catch them in a lie or display them as having picked an anti-town power later down in the drafting order to be able to get one of the 1-4 roles. At worst this makes mafia have to put in a time commitment to avoid the plan, and denies them 2 out of the 4 roles. I think that's a pretty good worst case scenario. We still deny them half the roles, and we make those roles easier to track because later on we'll be able to determine via draft order and flips where it was likely that copycat and role swapper were chosen. I'm hoping this clarifies my intentions with the plan, as I don't think I properly explained it before. I willspend a few minutes reviewing all that has been posted while I was writing this, please ask anyone questions, or give dissenting opinions. I want this plan to be good enough that everyon will follow it. That means if there's a flaw I need to know it now so we can improve it. I'd like everyone to be on board with this idea, or at least enough of us that we can follow through with the first 4 picks. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:33 austinmcc wrote: They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. This is a very good point, but with something like Janitor or PoD it doesn't make much sense (unless the scum will be able to make it multi use. If they give it to a player lower down the list and it is used, we lynch the higher up player and see that he had a different role. Now they have used the 1 shot power AND lost a scum that had his own power. I think this only applies if we're going after something like assassin or CPR doctor, but I like the check regardless. If you have read my plan, how would you feel about using role 5 or 6 (or even both) to RNG and determine if the roles were taken as theys hould be? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Any thoughts on the picking strategy Palmar? Also after reading some of the start of PYP:Redux, I think that denying powers is super important. Something about Austin wanting us to declare top 3 roles is that scum know what we plan on picking/think is important and adjust their strategy around that. So Im not in favor of this plan. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
(1) CPR doc - In mafia hands this is a multi-shot vig but without accountability (america = multi-shot nuker but has to publicly out self). Doubles mafia KP, but secretly. (2) Assassin - See above. Mafia knows all alignments, therefore this is a multi-shot vig without accountability. (3) Janitor - Information from flips good for town. Lack of that information for town bad. LOTS of KP roles in this game, good chance that some townies will be firing as well as mafia maybe getting extra KP, so there's the chance to hide multiple flips. (4) Role swapper/copy cat - These are dangerous only in that they can be used to get dangerous roles. Role swapper somewhat prevents town from denying mafia a role, but power still out of mafia hands for a night and the town role swapper then basically can DT check someone (if they've claimed, see if they're lying. If not, can you tell whether they've used their role, and in a townie/scummy way?). Copy cat another way to try and get a strong power passed down. Roles that I considered but dont' think are as strong as they look: (1) Hooker - Multi-shot vig without accountability. Stronger than the above because you CAN infect multiple targets. Weaker than the above because can be medic protected off. Also weaker than the above because, HOPEFULLY, if a townie knows he's going to die next cycle, he can be very vocal and is trustworthy/semi-confirmed-town (given that town hookers shouldn't be hooking willy-nilly, so we can assume he was targeted by a mafia hooker). | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted. If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Sharrant please summaries your 'plan' | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:44 austinmcc wrote: And for Oats, because I WOULD like to see most people state 3 powerful roles and WHY they want to deny those from mafia. (1) CPR doc - In mafia hands this is a multi-shot vig but without accountability (america = multi-shot nuker but has to publicly out self). Doubles mafia KP, but secretly. (2) Assassin - See above. Mafia knows all alignments, therefore this is a multi-shot vig without accountability. (3) Janitor - Information from flips good for town. Lack of that information for town bad. LOTS of KP roles in this game, good chance that some townies will be firing as well as mafia maybe getting extra KP, so there's the chance to hide multiple flips. (4) Role swapper/copy cat - These are dangerous only in that they can be used to get dangerous roles. Role swapper somewhat prevents town from denying mafia a role, but power still out of mafia hands for a night and the town role swapper then basically can DT check someone (if they've claimed, see if they're lying. If not, can you tell whether they've used their role, and in a townie/scummy way?). Copy cat another way to try and get a strong power passed down. Roles that I considered but dont' think are as strong as they look: (1) Hooker - Multi-shot vig without accountability. Stronger than the above because you CAN infect multiple targets. Weaker than the above because can be medic protected off. Also weaker than the above because, HOPEFULLY, if a townie knows he's going to die next cycle, he can be very vocal and is trustworthy/semi-confirmed-town (given that town hookers shouldn't be hooking willy-nilly, so we can assume he was targeted by a mafia hooker). How in the world does stating setup information help town? What? Thats saying why GF is a good role. WHAT IS THE POINT? | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? This is retarded and an anti-town sentiment. While it isn't alignment indicative, it is worth me saying; ignore the fuck out of Caller. This discussion has real meaning, or you can be sure that the no-bullshit player in yamato wouldn't be having it. You are not mafia for having this discussion, and real reads can be gotten here. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote: No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. On April 04 2013 23:14 austinmcc wrote: WEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEE Late start. If you want to argue about the setup, please read the last PYP game like this before doing so. Same discussions. I think there is reasonable discussion there that we don't need to have again. If you're arguing about how we choose roles/numbers/whatever this game without reading that or referencing it, you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're spamming up the thread in a way that isn't helpful. This game is different in two major ways that I see. (1) Different role list. (2) Some players getting bonuses for picking a specific type of role. I like the ideas from the older PYP of denying certain strong mafia roles (Janitor is VERY powerful, think of how much damage a 12-hour delayed SINGLE flip caused in Personality 2. Now imagine a N1 janitor usage in a game full of PYP-ed KP roles, and 4-5 flips FOREVER hidden. No bueno). Multi-KP roles, Janitor, other roles are things that we NEED to deny as town. In this game "pick the best role for town" often equals "deny mafia their best role" because they will often be able to use a role super-optimally where town can't (town doc doesn't always save, mafia KP role always hits townies, stuff like that). Once we have a picking order, we SHOULD be assigning some roles, and I also like RNGing some roles so that scum can't 100% know what's left and what's not. Any scum receiving VT is FANTASTIC for us. Artanis, we can both block roles AND RNG. They did last game and it made some sense. Check the bit on how (1), (2), and (3) in that game were supposed to pick. seriously though, if you're going back and forth with someone(s) about whether we should do x or y, at the very least go read the last game. Especially Qatol's posts, which tended to be super sensible and concise. We want to plan for the best draft we can get. Reading their planning stages, and how it played out for them, should be part of our planning. On April 04 2013 23:33 austinmcc wrote: They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. I like the sentiments espoused about RNG of role picks in the early phase by these two players. It is an addition to the spirit of my idea that gives EVEN MORE information to town, and effectively denies scum even more roles. It also becomes harder for scum to counterplay against it, and gives less general information to mafia. It's all kinds of pro-town, and I endorse it. Good stuff. On April 04 2013 23:00 Oatsmaster wrote: I also think all the plans are hilariously scum favoured, there is a reason why dudes dont claim unless they have to or are VE. As an update on Oats, I don't understand why he is still playing contrary to this stuff. I feel like his posts lack a logical direction in these conversations. I will be filtering him shortly and seeing if my feelings are confirmed or not. As of reading the thread since I posted last, these are the things I have noticed. If people feel I have unjustly ignored them, please bring your concerns to me and I will answer. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Inventor was a consideration of mine, but the fact that you have to give your inventions to other players weakens it somewhat. Possible that mafia end up implicating themselves slightly if they're only giving inventions to each other, and each player can only receive inventions once. Plus all inventions have to be one-shot, and you can't re-invent the same thing. There are enough restrictions that it limits the ability for the role to cause serious damage. As to denying roles/RNGing later down the list, I think it's a good idea if we can get people to agree on a plan of denial. The fact that mafia has a single factional KP is very important, especially in a game where we could also have a lot of protective roles. They NEED roles to win this, town doesn't. Time favors town, especially in a game where people can be outed based on what they pick, how they use, detective checks, etc. etc. I don't like the idea of having someone too far down the list RNG. Mafia is going to want x role or y role. The further down the list the RNG happens, the higher the chance that: (1) multiple mafioso are above the RNGer, and can pull shennanies; (2) mafia can just risk the RNG, because the chance that RNG steals the role they want to preserve are lower (50% chance at pick 3 last game, 20% chance at pick 6). | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:48 Oatsmaster wrote: Look deeper. The more people that come out saying "I think x, y, and z are mafia-favored roles," the higher the chance is later in the game that we catch someone using role x after admitting it was mafia-favored. They can't just say "Yeah I used my power but I didn't think it would be bad for town, don't lynch kk."How in the world does stating setup information help town? What? Thats saying why GF is a good role. WHAT IS THE POINT? Plus, if nothing else, we've already had confusion over the janitor role. Talking about it yielded an explanation of how it works, now everyone is on the same page. Maybe people aren't reading the role list closely. Maybe people don't understand why something is/isn't powerful. I also personally just find it more fruitful as a discussion topic than heavy heavy plan chatter, which we'll have to bring up again tomorrow once we actually have a picking order. | ||
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