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EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are.
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On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: [quote] Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying?
If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here?
??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then?
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On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote: [quote] Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.
I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla.
i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then? In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes.
mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum.
Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum.
I see a clear dichotomy.
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On April 04 2013 22:23 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: [quote] Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then? In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes. mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. I see a clear dichotomy. And if we know the roles in the game, how does that help us?
Info is a lazy answer dude.
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On April 04 2013 22:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are. I think where all this comes into play is that you are treating everything literally.
Perhaps when it comes to a "plan" that has not been fleshed out; that is the natural assumption to make. i.e. 1 hard rule that applies to all situations.
To me, the whole concept isnt black/white.
But thats the whole point of this discussion, to brainstorm / refine / implement.
Prior, I was not a fan of yam/sharrant force the draft pick plan. I still am not.
However, I do see merit if people choose to claim the role that made them VT. I am not trying to enforce this as mandatory by any means; I am hoping with enough information out there, people can make an informed decision for themselves.
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On April 04 2013 22:27 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are. I think where all this comes into play is that you are treating everything literally. Perhaps when it comes to a "plan" that has not been fleshed out; that is the natural assumption to make. i.e. 1 hard rule that applies to all situations. To me, the whole concept isnt black/white. But thats the whole point of this discussion, to brainstorm / refine / implement. Prior, I was not a fan of yam/sharrant force the draft pick plan. I still am not. However, I do see merit if people choose to claim the role that made them VT. I am not trying to enforce this as mandatory by any means; I am hoping with enough information out there, people can make an informed decision for themselves.
Also this gives scum info and you should never give scum info.
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On April 04 2013 22:24 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:23 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote: [quote]I dont see a point debating this.
Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then? In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes. mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. I see a clear dichotomy. And if we know the roles in the game, how does that help us? Info is a lazy answer dude. You are asking hypothetical questions, to hypothetical situations Oatsmaster.
I prefer to deal with the now.
I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you.
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Mocsta:
Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game.
It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia.
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oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite?
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On April 04 2013 22:30 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:27 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are. I think where all this comes into play is that you are treating everything literally. Perhaps when it comes to a "plan" that has not been fleshed out; that is the natural assumption to make. i.e. 1 hard rule that applies to all situations. To me, the whole concept isnt black/white. But thats the whole point of this discussion, to brainstorm / refine / implement. Prior, I was not a fan of yam/sharrant force the draft pick plan. I still am not. However, I do see merit if people choose to claim the role that made them VT. I am not trying to enforce this as mandatory by any means; I am hoping with enough information out there, people can make an informed decision for themselves. Also this gives scum info and you should never give scum info. Incorrect.
It gives both town and mafia info, which is advantageous to town, since mafia have their inherent informational advantage in the first place, and it'll grow comparatively smaller with it.
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So WHY THE FUCK DONT ALL BLUES CLAIM AT THE START OF THE GAME YOU IDIOT.
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On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work.
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On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. naw ya gitz its quoit' simple
i gotz a plan, requirez three days, then everybody claims, and vanillas make up a claim. den we wait fo days 2 and 3. no infomation gets to the maf's that we townz' won't also knowz cuz the maf's can't trust any claims.
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On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work.
New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum.
RO is scum.
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On April 04 2013 22:39 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum. RO is scum. Am I mafia independently of the first sentence, or did I already try to get someone lynched without myself noticing?
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On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable.
I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it.
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On April 04 2013 22:41 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:39 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum. RO is scum. Am I mafia independently of the first sentence, or did I already try to get someone lynched without myself noticing?
Pointing out contradictions is pointing out that the dude is lying and therefore scum. So yeah.
Also WHO ARE YOU
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On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. I don't think that's a good idea either. Scum can easily pick good roles for them by "blocking" a good scum role and in LYLO just BAM - ggnore. Also if town blocks a role scum can leave them alive to be WIFOMed to death later.
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On April 04 2013 22:44 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:41 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:39 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum. RO is scum. Am I mafia independently of the first sentence, or did I already try to get someone lynched without myself noticing? Pointing out contradictions is pointing out that the dude is lying and therefore scum. So yeah. Also WHO ARE YOU If I wanted to point out a person is mafia, I would have pointed out a person is mafia. However, I did no such thing.
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On April 04 2013 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game. It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia.
RO: Thoughts on this?
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