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On November 21 2012 17:04 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:35 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader. I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting. Hope that helps. I see a couple people have questions for me. I'll make a followup post for them within the hour and then I'm calling it a night. Damnit, I was in bed and checked the thread once more from my phone and had to get up to come back and reply to this because of how vehemently I disagree. First: Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
This game employs a Party Election system. Most of the time (in place of the lynch) players will be voting on a “Party Leader”. The party leader will be elected each day the town is faced with an “event” (this will be notified in the daypost).
Notice that it says MOST OF THE TIME there won't be a lynch, implying that there will be a traditional lynch at some point (presumably on non-event days). Also: Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
Factions and win conditions
At some point in the game Lavos will be summoned. The powers and nature of Lavos are hidden until 1999 AD. Win conditions are based around Lavos. Lavos will spawn at a predetermined time in the game. If all mafia die, Lavos will be summoned immediately.
Notice the "If all mafia die." How exactly are mafia ever going to die in this game if all we do is townhunt the whole game? I'm going to guess they aren't going to get punished for being selected into the party (and actually, probably rewarded), so they won't be dying from that. So, that only really leaves 1) lynch whenever that's what we do for the day 2) town vigs shooting the scum and 3) third party having some sort of KP Both 1 and 2 require scumhunting. Also, scumhunting narrows down possible town reads. Basically I 100% disagree with you that the only thing we should be doing is townhunting.
If I had to guess I would say after lavos get summoned he gets X amount of HP and is targetable by players each day or something. Mafia needs to kill town so it prob wont target lavos and keep hitting town while town tries to kill it. The outcome of the events will prob influence in how properly town can fight/survive lavos.
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Oh and I forgot: Yeah we need to find someone to send d1 and that's all nice and fine but I don't think it's a good way to keep the talk all focused on only that.
Faking townreads as mafias is incredibly easy. Faking mafiareads as mafia is something that takes effort. If we're only going to talk about who we're going to send d1 we're giving mafia an incredibly easy time skating by.
I know it feels counterintuitive as clearly the shortterm "goal" is to send a good guy d1 but I think we should try and balance those issues out. After all, the goal in the longrun is to figure people out and we won't be able to do that by playing nice all day long.
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Also, before I go to bed, I wanted to comment on this again:
On November 21 2012 15:21 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:12 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 15:04 Keirathi wrote:
Man, am I the only person who doesn't want to be party leader? Maybe that sounds scummy because "Keir doesn't want to be held accountable for his choices", but I'm certainly willing to say who I want to be party leader and who I would want in the party. Its just that I don't trust my ability to read people enough to put the final decision into my own hands :o Your opinions are still important  . Incompetent reads are far better than no reads at all. What's your current read on sandroba? Slightly town. His plan made a lot of sense if you assume that scum would be trying to influence the outcome of the event even after the party is selected by choosing who to kill, and it was a direct contradiction to the other proposed plan at the time, which shows he wasn't afraid to stick his neck out to propose something that could potentially be worse for scum. That said, his plan relied on the scum mechanics that we have no idea about, so he could be influencing town in the wrong direction. For instance, its possible scum is NOT able to shoot anyone in the party, so keeping all of the vets out of the party could make them "free" kills when otherwise they might not be.
You might be asking why I think this is even a possibility, when all the speculation this game has been roughly the opposite of that. It makes some modicum of sense to me that being townie enough to get selected to the party could grant you some kind of KP protection. I'm certainly not SURE that it does, but it wouldn't be that far-fetched for me to believe that getting selected to the party has some boon for the people selected. Which would mean that leaving vets out of the party just because they're vets and it makes scum have a "tougher" choice is fallacious, and actually be beneficial to scum.
Again, the other way might be "more" likely, but I don't want to dismiss any possibilities at this point until we see more mechanics. I think the best solution day 1 is to just get the 4 people most likely to be town as possible, and see what happens.
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On November 21 2012 17:06 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:01 syllogism wrote:
All this talk about treating this game like Resistance is misguided or malicious, at least if the implication is that the game is only about looking for townies. Resistance is a game with no roles, transparent mechanics, no flips, clear goal and every day you gain information that isn't particularly subject to manipulation. In this game there is some sort of mafia NK mechanic, hitpoint mechanic, likely a lot of roles and town can even win by eliminating all the mafia. This suggests that there is a lot of KP in the game and it is not limited to just mafia. Moreover, I think the more mafia are left alive when Lavos is summoned, the harder it is for town to win.
The point being, there is little reason for us not to also be looking for mafia in the thread. Mafia have relatively easy time blending in if all they have to do is pretend to be looking for townies or even worse every single day just look for the best party leader. Identifying likely mafia will also give our blues something to work on.
So, while it's fine that we early on discuss about who is likely to be town or who would be the good leader, this shouldn't last and the game should be played quite like a normal mafia game. Town hunting can be mostly restricted to your spreadsheets unless you are trying to convince the likely party leader to include someone on the team. I predict it will be harder for us to find scum with no lynch voting. I think the best bet at least for d1 is to concentrate in finding a team that will succeed in the mission and let us learn more about the game mechanics.
Really? What do you expect to learn about game mechanics after day 1 and how do you think will that impact our play? While mafia has easier time bussing their team mates in this format, they still do not want town to start treating some of their players are likely mafia. If there we allow players to just look for townies and all the discussion revolves around that, it is going to be more difficult to identify mafia, which can also make it more difficult to identify townies, at least for a lot of players. Lynch mechanic or not, mafia still has to fake their mafia reads or bus and they would rather not do either. Discussions relating as to who people think are mafia produce a lot more useful information.
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On November 21 2012 17:04 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:35 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader. I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting. Hope that helps. I see a couple people have questions for me. I'll make a followup post for them within the hour and then I'm calling it a night. Damnit, I was in bed and checked the thread once more from my phone and had to get up to come back and reply to this because of how vehemently I disagree. First: Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
This game employs a Party Election system. Most of the time (in place of the lynch) players will be voting on a “Party Leader”. The party leader will be elected each day the town is faced with an “event” (this will be notified in the daypost).
Notice that it says MOST OF THE TIME there won't be a lynch, implying that there will be a traditional lynch at some point (presumably on non-event days). Also: Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
Factions and win conditions
At some point in the game Lavos will be summoned. The powers and nature of Lavos are hidden until 1999 AD. Win conditions are based around Lavos. Lavos will spawn at a predetermined time in the game. If all mafia die, Lavos will be summoned immediately.
Notice the "If all mafia die." How exactly are mafia ever going to die in this game if all we do is townhunt the whole game? I'm going to guess they aren't going to get punished for being selected into the party (and actually, probably rewarded), so they won't be dying from that. So, that only really leaves 1) lynch whenever that's what we do for the day 2) town vigs shooting the scum and 3) third party having some sort of KP Both 1 and 2 require scumhunting. Also, scumhunting narrows down possible town reads. Basically I 100% disagree with you that the only thing we should be doing is townhunting.
This is a good catch. I was under the impression that the party minigames would alter the fate of the game, and be our means for outing scum. It would seem there might also be a traditional component as well.
It still, however, doesn't change the fact that whoever we choose it's going to be because we think they're town, and that they will automatically become a high priority for the scum team. We can't be as hesitant to share some town reads + Show Spoiler +(and I'm not suggesting, to be clear, people provide a full list of reads for every player or any other such nonsense)
I should reword what I said, then, as follows.:
Until such a time where lynching becomes an available option, we should be prioritizing townhunting over scumhunting as we choose our party leader and members.
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On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:
This Keirathi guy is mafia.
Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far.
There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on.
Really? I'm scum because the people I would be most willing to vote as leader are the people I'm most familiar with? Don't be ridiculous.
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On November 21 2012 17:17 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:
This Keirathi guy is mafia.
Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far.
There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on.
Really? I'm scum because the people I would be most willing to vote as leader are the people I'm most familiar with? Don't be ridiculous.
no you're scum for pointing that out. That's a important difference.
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On November 21 2012 17:15 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:06 sandroba wrote:On November 21 2012 17:01 syllogism wrote:
All this talk about treating this game like Resistance is misguided or malicious, at least if the implication is that the game is only about looking for townies. Resistance is a game with no roles, transparent mechanics, no flips, clear goal and every day you gain information that isn't particularly subject to manipulation. In this game there is some sort of mafia NK mechanic, hitpoint mechanic, likely a lot of roles and town can even win by eliminating all the mafia. This suggests that there is a lot of KP in the game and it is not limited to just mafia. Moreover, I think the more mafia are left alive when Lavos is summoned, the harder it is for town to win.
The point being, there is little reason for us not to also be looking for mafia in the thread. Mafia have relatively easy time blending in if all they have to do is pretend to be looking for townies or even worse every single day just look for the best party leader. Identifying likely mafia will also give our blues something to work on.
So, while it's fine that we early on discuss about who is likely to be town or who would be the good leader, this shouldn't last and the game should be played quite like a normal mafia game. Town hunting can be mostly restricted to your spreadsheets unless you are trying to convince the likely party leader to include someone on the team. I predict it will be harder for us to find scum with no lynch voting. I think the best bet at least for d1 is to concentrate in finding a team that will succeed in the mission and let us learn more about the game mechanics. Really? What do you expect to learn about game mechanics after day 1 and how do you think will that impact our play? While mafia has easier time bussing their team mates in this format, they still do not want town to start treating some of their players are likely mafia. If there we allow players to just look for townies and all the discussion revolves around that, it is going to be more difficult to identify mafia, which can also make it more difficult to identify townies, at least for a lot of players. Lynch mechanic or not, mafia still has to fake their mafia reads or bus and they would rather not do either. Discussions relating as to who people think are mafia produce a lot more useful information.
I'd like to know the outcome of the mission, results from night actions, kp mafia has etc to get a better grasp at the mechanincs. Of course I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about who we think are mafia/ who we wouldn't like to see on missions, but I think the focus specially for d1 should be on getting a solid team. This game will prob be extremelly blue action oriented so we can spam our reads to help out but in the end the colective effort should be on getting teams toghether and keeping mafia out of them. Of course that involves identifying who the likely mafia are.
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By outcome I mean what we get from it after we succeed.
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I think that waiting for the first cycle to be over before committing to anything other than our 1st cycle party leader is a good idea BECAUSE We dont have information on any night actions, we dont know what the task completion/failure will do.
Also with the HP system, I think it is difficult for anyone to die from night actions after cycle 1.
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On November 21 2012 17:19 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:17 Keirathi wrote:On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:
This Keirathi guy is mafia.
Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far.
There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on.
Really? I'm scum because the people I would be most willing to vote as leader are the people I'm most familiar with? Don't be ridiculous. no you're scum for pointing that out. That's a important difference.
No, you're being dumb.
I've played lots of games with marv, iamperfection, S&B, risk.nuke, Z-BosoN, etc. I 100% trust my ability to read them better than I trust my ability to read you or syllo or sandro, whom I've never played with. When it comes down to time for me to vote, I'm going to think "Ok, sandro might be town, and he's getting a lot of votes. But, I'm much more sure that marv is town because I'm way more familiar with how he plays. It makes sense for me to vote him." Plain and simple. If that makes me scum, then tough titties.
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EBWOP: I am spitballing about nobody dying but I think that the HP system was put in for a reason..
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Anyways its late. I'm going to bed for reals now. G'nite folks.
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On November 21 2012 17:27 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:19 Toadesstern wrote:On November 21 2012 17:17 Keirathi wrote:On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:
This Keirathi guy is mafia.
Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far.
There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on.
Really? I'm scum because the people I would be most willing to vote as leader are the people I'm most familiar with? Don't be ridiculous. no you're scum for pointing that out. That's a important difference. No, you're being dumb. I've played lots of games with marv, iamperfection, S&B, risk.nuke, Z-BosoN, etc. I 100% trust my ability to read them better than I trust my ability to read you or syllo or sandro, whom I've never played with. When it comes down to time for me to vote, I'm going to think "Ok, sandro might be town, and he's getting a lot of votes. But, I'm much more sure that marv is town because I'm way more familiar with how he plays. It makes sense for me to vote him." Plain and simple. If that makes me scum, then tough titties.
And yet you still haven't understood what I'm saying.
I'm not saying your reasoning is stupid. If you feel that way fine although I'd hope that you have more than just one guy you feel comfortable to read... I mean you just mentioned a bunch of people, yet you only mentioned Marv earlier, didn't you?
The issue is that you get in here telling us about that.
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But getting a team together is not a collective effort; players only have to identify one likely townie who is also likely capable of identifying 3 additional ones. If I was a party leader, I wouldn't pay much attention to who most people think are town. As such I suppose it can be argued the possible party leaders should devote more time on town hunting, but everyone else should mostly just justify their party leader vote and spend the rest of their efforts on finding mafia.
Do you agree that it's easier to get reads if people post and explain their mafia reads than if they only talk about who they find to likely be town?
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
In an effort to gain your trust so that I can become the first leader, I have two solid scum reads that I feel need to be shared.
Djodref:
Supports sandroba, though he (weakly) nominated himself. Wants Clarity and Lamp on his team. Has asked a few times to different people what their reads are. Maybe mining for info? Said "I don't think it would be fair for the scum team not being able to kill the party members" Also, put out a hit on a town marv and town Hapa for being dangerous to the mafia. I'd say 80% sure he is scum
goodkarma:
Seems to be in favor of Sandroba for pres, even though he nominated himself for it. wants sandroba and promethelax on his team. Put emphasis on finding townies, not scummies, which could mean he is scum. Asked questions that feel as if they come from mafia perspective (dealing with towny death and kill immunity). Attacks back at Keirathi after he explains that we dont know HOW the scum kills by saying "scum must be able to remove it somehow" Uses distancing language "town" when talking about possible medics. I'm 70% sure he is scum. Seems to be town hunting.
![[image loading]](http://i49.tinypic.com/20zd73t.png)
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Sandro is dienosore the "dio" person you were talking about or was that a reference to Djo?
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Good post but PLEASE delete that poster..
There is no point putting mostly arbitrary percentage values on the 'amount' of scumminess.
Use quotes to substantiate your points.
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On November 21 2012 17:33 syllogism wrote:
But getting a team together is not a collective effort; players only have to identify one likely townie who is also likely capable of identifying 3 additional ones. If I was a party leader, I wouldn't pay much attention to who most people think are town. As such I suppose it can be argued the possible party leaders should devote more time on town hunting, but everyone else should mostly just justify their party leader vote and spend the rest of their efforts on finding mafia.
Do you agree that it's easier to get reads if people post and explain their mafia reads than if they only talk about who they find to likely be town?
Yes, you are correct indeed. I guess I was thinking already as how to be effective as party leader. But you have a point that if people discuss their mafia reads it will be easier.
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Yep, it's the dude above indeed.
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EPT
