|
On November 21 2012 15:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Dont guess Djo, how could you know how mafia KPs work in this setup.
Does scum have to send in actions before they know who the party leader is? or after the whole party is made?
I think you misunderstand me. My point is that we should focus on completing the tasks since that is the only way town gets an advantage. The best way to complete the tasks is the send the 4 towniest players
@ Oatsmaster
I don't know, I'm just guessing. I'm sorry but we have to try to figure how this game works because the mafia has certainly more information than us. But mafia needs to be able to influence the outcome of the events somehow for sure because otherwise the game wouldn't be balanced. Either they can infiltrate the party or threaten the party. They must have have a way to threaten the party members somehow, don't you agree ? It is not going to far into speculating than to say that.
In my opinion, the party members are put at risk, so we are better not sending the towniest players because they are most likely to be our best players and we should better keep them for the future of the game.
|
Nice post phagga.
Do you have a strategy on picking the party leaders/party members?
|
lol Djo after the first cycle Im sure we will know more about the game and how to play it.
So what do you propose we do to pick the party members. In my opinion, town's goal is to COMPLETE the first task.
|
EPWOB: To complete the task, not to try and trick the mafia, not to limit damage.
|
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person).
|
On November 21 2012 16:03 Oatsmaster wrote:
Nice post phagga.
Do you have a strategy on picking the party leaders/party members?
I will pick a party leader who (priority in this order):
1.) I have a town read on
2.) Is good at reading people D1
3.) has a sound plan how to choose his team
4.) Suggests/chooses team members that I agree with
1 and 2 are a must, 3 and 4 are nice to have.
|
If I understand things correctly, the party leader is going to chose the party members during the night action resolution period, am I correct ?
So, his real decision is in fact secret and communicated to the hosts only via PMs, right ?
Do the players get the confirmation that they were indeed in the party after the resolution of the event ?
|
On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person).
The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader.
I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting.
Hope that helps.
I see a couple people have questions for me. I'll make a followup post for them within the hour and then I'm calling it a night.
|
On November 21 2012 16:06 Oatsmaster wrote:
lol Djo after the first cycle Im sure we will know more about the game and how to play it.
So what do you propose we do to pick the party members. In my opinion, town's goal is to COMPLETE the first task.
@ Oats
If I'm right, we have to totally trust the party leader for picking the right party members because I don't think we are going to have any way to check for sure that they were in the party after the resolution.
I'm realizing that we must absolutely not screw up the election of the party leader, party members come only after that but I've already explained how I would personally chose them if I get to be elected.
|
On November 21 2012 16:35 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader. I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting.
Ok, looks like I need to clarify myself.
Townhunting is stupid. Do you know why? Because scum can fake it to no end, since they know who is not scum. Talking about who is townie makes it much easier for scum to blend in, which then makes it much harder for town to choose the right people for their teams. Yes, there may be multiple factions in this game. Still, if we force scum to scumhunt they are more likely to trip as if they can just give their townreads out. So, no, I disagree that this game revolves around townhunting. We find out who is townie by scumhunting, not by townhunting.
|
I would like you to vote for me !
I don't know if I'm going to get the answers from my latest questions to the hosts but I know believe that the best way for the party leader to chose his party members is to do it in complete secrecy. The next day, I would reveal the members if the event resolves in a failure and I would not reveal them if the event resolves in a success.
I'm going to base my election campaign on this plan. In a battle of information, you should give the least possible clues to your enemy. Of course, it would mean that you have to totally trust me on this one. Trust me on the fact that I'm town and trust me on my reads !
I'm ok if people would rather townhunt than scumhunt but I think I'll spend the rest of my day scum hunting rather than town hunting and of course promoting my own election !
I'm totally open to discuss the validity of my plan and if anyone has some ideas to contribute to it 
##Vote: Djodref
Djodref for party leader ! Trust me, I'm town and I have good intuition. I'll take my responsibilities in case of failure, I'll keep the info outside of mafia reach in case of success ! I'll give you everything in due time and I'm promoting traditional scum hunting for day !
|
On November 21 2012 15:59 syllogism wrote:
Sandro who do you think is [most likely to be] town so far?
I'll do better and give you 2 I have a pretty good town read on: Diodude and oatsmaster.
@Djoref I'll try to put in an effort and explain my reads properly when the time comes, but I'm gonna wait a little more before I do that.
|
All this talk about treating this game like Resistance is misguided or malicious, at least if the implication is that the game is only about looking for townies. Resistance is a game with no roles, transparent mechanics, no flips, clear goal and every day you gain information that isn't particularly subject to manipulation. In this game there is some sort of mafia NK mechanic, hitpoint mechanic, likely a lot of roles and town can even win by eliminating all the mafia. This suggests that there is a lot of KP in the game and it is not limited to just mafia. Moreover, I think the more mafia are left alive when Lavos is summoned, the harder it is for town to win.
The point being, there is little reason for us not to also be looking for mafia in the thread. Mafia have relatively easy time blending in if all they have to do is pretend to be looking for townies or even worse every single day just look for the best party leader. Identifying likely mafia will also give our blues something to work on.
So, while it's fine that we early on discuss about who is likely to be town or who would be the good leader, this shouldn't last and the game should be played quite like a normal mafia game. Town hunting can be mostly restricted to your spreadsheets unless you are trying to convince the likely party leader to include someone on the team.
|
EBWOP: I am aware that we have to discuss the people who want to get elected and that this will eventually lead to townreads in the thread. This is unavoidable. Nevertheless, I find it dangerous if people go around and ask for townreads from people who are not candidating and/or will probably not get elected. Also, asking for townreads when the game is not even 12 hours old is unnecessary.
|
@phagga town hunting is super effective if you know how to do it properly. It has like 3x the accuracy than hunting for scum I would say =P
|
On November 21 2012 16:54 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:35 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader. I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting. Ok, looks like I need to clarify myself. Townhunting is stupid. Do you know why? Because scum can fake it to no end, since they know who is not scum. Talking about who is townie makes it much easier for scum to blend in, which then makes it much harder for town to choose the right people for their teams. Yes, there may be multiple factions in this game. Still, if we force scum to scumhunt they are more likely to trip as if they can just give their townreads out. So, no, I disagree that this game revolves around townhunting. We find out who is townie by scumhunting, not by townhunting.
The issue with forcing people to scumhunt is we have no real way of checking if they're right other than sending the scummy people on a mission and watching it fail, which is not optimal. Apparently, this game is going to play much like the Resistance games - find townies. Eventually, the scum will be forced to disagree with the selected team if it contains no scum, which is where they'll have to display scummy logic to back up their disagreement and that's where we catch them.
|
On November 21 2012 16:35 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote:
I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected.
Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). The reason we're not doing traditional scumhunting is because we don't have the power to lynch scum. Our time is best used determining who is most likely town, as we're (hopefully) voting for townies as party leader. I've touched on this a few times. Hopefully this is the last time clarification is needed. This game isn't about scumhunting. Rather, it revolves around townhunting. Hope that helps. I see a couple people have questions for me. I'll make a followup post for them within the hour and then I'm calling it a night.
Damnit, I was in bed and checked the thread once more from my phone and had to get up to come back and reply to this because of how vehemently I disagree.
First:
On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
This game employs a Party Election system. Most of the time (in place of the lynch) players will be voting on a “Party Leader”. The party leader will be elected each day the town is faced with an “event” (this will be notified in the daypost).
Notice that it says MOST OF THE TIME there won't be a lynch, implying that there will be a traditional lynch at some point (presumably on non-event days).
Also:
On November 19 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
Factions and win conditions
At some point in the game Lavos will be summoned. The powers and nature of Lavos are hidden until 1999 AD. Win conditions are based around Lavos. Lavos will spawn at a predetermined time in the game. If all mafia die, Lavos will be summoned immediately.
Notice the "If all mafia die." How exactly are mafia ever going to die in this game if all we do is townhunt the whole game? I'm going to guess they aren't going to get punished for being selected into the party (and actually, probably rewarded), so they won't be dying from that. So, that only really leaves 1) lynch whenever that's what we do for the day 2) town vigs shooting the scum and 3) third party having some sort of KP
Both 1 and 2 require scumhunting. Also, scumhunting narrows down possible town reads.
Basically I 100% disagree with you that the only thing we should be doing is townhunting.
|
On November 21 2012 17:01 syllogism wrote:
All this talk about treating this game like Resistance is misguided or malicious, at least if the implication is that the game is only about looking for townies. Resistance is a game with no roles, transparent mechanics, no flips, clear goal and every day you gain information that isn't particularly subject to manipulation. In this game there is some sort of mafia NK mechanic, hitpoint mechanic, likely a lot of roles and town can even win by eliminating all the mafia. This suggests that there is a lot of KP in the game and it is not limited to just mafia. Moreover, I think the more mafia are left alive when Lavos is summoned, the harder it is for town to win.
The point being, there is little reason for us not to also be looking for mafia in the thread. Mafia have relatively easy time blending in if all they have to do is pretend to be looking for townies or even worse every single day just look for the best party leader. Identifying likely mafia will also give our blues something to work on.
So, while it's fine that we early on discuss about who is likely to be town or who would be the good leader, this shouldn't last and the game should be played quite like a normal mafia game. Town hunting can be mostly restricted to your spreadsheets unless you are trying to convince the likely party leader to include someone on the team.
I predict it will be harder for us to find scum with no lynch voting. I think the best bet at least for d1 is to concentrate in finding a team that will succeed in the mission and let us learn more about the game mechanics.
|
@Oats:
I suggested that if I am not elected Sandroba is my current alternative pick for party leader. That should say something about my current read on him. But I will briefly recap: His ideas for how to produce a successful town party are ones that I agree with. That others apparently are familiar with his meta, and that he is either a strong town or weak scum player is icing on the cake. That being said, before I would place a vote towards him I would need to know which party members he would choose and why.
@phagga:
On November 21 2012 15:59 phagga wrote:Some things after finally catching up: -snip- Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:06 goodkarma wrote:
Who I would nominate (if not myself):
As of right now, my support for a party leader (besides myself) would be sandroba.
Sandroba seems to be adopting a solid strategy at present. I wholeheartedly agree with going with the most townie individuals, even if they are inexperienced. We don't know how the minigames are going to work yet, but we do know with 100% certainty that scum will count against their success. In a game where we don't lynch, all we can do is establish who is actually town. It is absolutely ridiculous to nominate people who have both strong scum and town games and are hard to read day one (thinking of Marv).
I also completely agree with the suggestion that's been brought up that parties be suggested by those who are hoping to be nominated up-front. This is especially important if we are to nominate a townie who isn't as experienced.
Goodkarma for President:
As your leader, I will do my best to further the policy of choosing the most obvious townies as detailed above. Along those lines, I would elect to choose both sandroba and promethelax for my party. The third is still tentative, as the game has only been going for a short time. You would vote Sandroba because you think his strategy is solid. His strategy involves taking less known townies on the team and no additional vets, to make it harder for scum to decide who to snipe. Your Strategy however would be to take at least one vet and a well known, albeit newer town player to your team. Why? -snip-
I agree with Sandroba insofar as that lesser known players that are obvious townies should be strongly considered. However, at the end of the day, going with your three strongest town reads is going to be optimal for selecting a party. Unfortunately I, like several other players here, have somewhat of a bias at times towards prioritizing players that we have played with before. It could also be said that less experienced players are more likely to post like crap and not distinguish themselves as town than "vets" (look at deino). So there might be some unintentional bias towards vets (which is something I would try to avoid to the best of my ability). To be clear I will definitely be reassessing my read on Prox (as well as Sandroba) before making a finalized Vice Presidential Candidate trifecta.
I don't feel it's absolutely necessary that all three chosen members are townie looking newbies. I feel that the chosen members should be closest to 100% confirmed town, and that newbies should not be left out of consideration. Maybe there is a small difference between myself and Sandroba in this area. That's good for my election campaign I suppose...
|
This Keirathi guy is mafia.
Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far.
There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on.
That being said I plan on becomming leader d1. Vote for me please :3
I plan on sending people I trust to be town. Especially my townreads are pretty awesome and I have an easy time picking up townreads early on so I'd say this job is the right job for me.
That being said I will not send people some kind of "majority" thinks I should send. I will send people I myself consider to be town and nothing else. That probably sounds stupid to those people who are new to this game but that's how these things are going.
Don't listen to people telling you they will listen to some majority-decided group they will nominate if they get to be leader. Vote for someone who's willing and comfortable enough to make a decision on his own instead of trying to dodge the responsibility but wants to be leader for whatever reason nonetheless. I know it sounds awesome to have people telling you that your voice will be heard and everyone can hold hands and decide on the group together but that's just meaningless smooth-talk. You've got your vote. You vote for the leader, not more and not less. Everything else is in the hand of the guy in charge. That's how you influence this outcome and it's enough. More than that just makes it way to likely for people to be influenced.
I will obviously only vote for someone I trust to be able to get good reads d1 himself in combination with a townread on said guy (duh). Having someone who's just going to roll a dice to determine who's going on the mission is not going to help us and let's face it, there's people who are at face value with rolling a dice, at least on d1.
Vote me pretty please!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
