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On November 24 2012 12:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 12:07 Hapahauli wrote:On November 24 2012 12:01 sandroba wrote:
Pretty much his forged nonsensical cases against me, deliberately misinterpreting things to make me look scummy. I'm not quite sure yet because he could be really bad and have confirmation bias, trying to fit every single post I make in his theory. Oh come on... you're straight up OMGUS Clarity? I mean the guy is a relatively new player and has an 11 page filter... Having lots of 1-liners is a town tell how? Don't get me wrong. I have no clue about clarity's alignment right now. Last time I read his filter I was null and I have plenty of homework tomorrow. But what the fuck does the length of his filter have to do with it? You want a giant filter? Look at Drazerk in HRM. I believe he reached 25 pages of rhyme. Yes, he was scum.
It's not just the filter size - it's his level of engagement in the thread. In addition, his filter isn't simply "11 pages of one-liners" - there's some solid analysis in there.
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Chronicler's voting for syllo makes perfect sense in which he did not want town reads to be thrown around.
I am confused on the information that he wants from his original plan but I suspect that he wanted associations between scum players when the flips start coming
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about iamp:
I agree with Hapa here. He's bordering on the edge of my scumdar, because he's fallen out of his characteristic posting style.
However, it was Thanksgiving and he said he was going to be away. I'll give him a bit of time to step it up before I seriously consider voting for him.
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I really dont believe Sandro at this point after his long posts.
He didnt show any examples on how clarity forced scum behavior on his posts
Earlier it was brought up that the game was balanced insofar that the roles arnt randomly given, so I believe that scum must have a strong candidate who can win the election if he appears town.
Sandro, can you explain more about your scum read on kita? If I am to switch off you, I must think that someone is scummier than you and kita is also under suspicion.
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EBWOP: Examples where clarity suffered from confirmation bias in analysing Sandro.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
You've got a lot more pandering to do, sandro, if you want to clear your name. My maps say you are the most hated person in the game right now.
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On November 24 2012 11:18 TheChronicler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 11:09 Toadesstern wrote:On November 24 2012 11:01 TheChronicler wrote:On November 24 2012 10:29 Dienosore wrote:
Oh and also some of the lines in the second map are pencil, some are pen. Pencil indicates that they are voting to hang that person. I'll take this opportunity to place my vote on sandroba. Where is toad... I would have really liked seeing his opinion on Sandro before voting. I really only see Sandro as scum if toad is scum, too. sry it's firday (was) and as usually I'm taking the train back to my parents place.. that takes a lot of time and I haven't read a thing because I didn't really want to after that long of a trip, so I played some dota from 9pm my time or something like that... sry I guess, but that's how it is with me every game I'm playing. About the question: I think I made my point on Sandro (and Marv) very clear. You even quoted me when I did that. What do you want me to say more about it? Lol, actively lurking much?
@TheChronicler
I was sleeping, I'm back now !
I want you to
1) explain how and when you assessed syllo alignment yesterday and why you didn't explain your reasoning in the the thread. You were afraid to give the power to a scum player so I'm surprised you somehow blindly picked syllo.
2) give me an example of what we could have achieved with your plan.
-For example, give me a configuration where your plan was going to assure the success of the event. I don't think your plan was aiming to have some successful events but I might be wrong.
-For example, give me a configuration where your plan was going to allow us to catch a mafia player.
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@Kei
It's funny you should mention Prome. Before I went after chronicle, I was going to make a case on him myself. Your reasons for finding him scum were slightly different from mine, so I'll complement your case.
(for reference, your case)
+ Show Spoiler +On November 24 2012 05:48 Keirathi wrote:Mmm, busy day today. Some comments: TheChroniclerThe points against him are really strong (particularly the "giving town reads is anti-town" opinion, when his day 1 plan relied exactly on that). Waiting on him to explain more, but I'm liking him for the vote today right now. sandrobaNothing in his filter jumps out to me as anti-town mindset. Really, the only point against him is that he's been lurky, when I observed Looney and he was pretty lurky there too as town. Not enough for me to vote him right now. PromethelaxHe's someone else I think we should be talking about today as a lynch candidate. Let's take a look at his first two posts: Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 10:54 Promethelax wrote:
*snip*
So, it seems to me that we need to vote for the towniest player possible for the challenge. I think anyone who wants to be elected as party leader should announce who they will pick to work with them so that they have something which they have to stand by. I don't want mafia to be able to choose an all mafia team (or 3rd party or whatever the hell else GreY put in this game). or, if they do I'd like them to have to at least put their stances in the thread on which players seem most townie and most scummy.
Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:01 Promethelax wrote:
I see Acro has sniped me in terms of the idea of any potential leader posting their core group. Has anyone played in a similar set-up before? Or does anyone have the link to Resistance? I haven't read it.
Based on the fact that Acro had the same though as me and from our last game together I would currently, put him in my team, along with Acro I would add Marv (come on, wouldn't you?) and as third player I would chose Hapa. Hapa is a guy who over many games I have come to like and respect though I once hated him. He is a great town player and a kinda crappy scum player, seems like the right guy to have along for the ride.
TL:DR My team: Acro, Marv, Hapa
I'm curious if putting one player who seems like a liability (one of the guys known for trolling or one of the smurfs) onto the team so that we can get a read on them from their actions makes sense? It seems like we won't have lynches but knowing who scum is/is not will help town players direct any and all actions which they have and i assume making sure that non-town players not being on the quest team will be a good thing for us as the OP specifies that they can make it more difficult to achieve our objectives. So, he's already thinking about voting the towniest person into the group as a leader, because he didn't want an all scum party. He even goes so far as to suggest putting a "liability" into the group to test if they are townie or not. But, he doesn't pick people for his group because they are TOWN. He just picks them because he respects them as good players. They are two very different lines of thinking within just those two posts. Then: Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:08 Promethelax wrote:
Kier: would you really vote for Marv? Do you think you have the ability to meta read him well enough to know that he is town? I don't think I could and, unless someone can convince me that he is town or the person he is running against is super scummy I will NOT vote Marv.
And: Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:16 Promethelax wrote:
Keir: how many scum does it take to sabotage a mission? My guess is that even a single one will fuck us so a scum Marv would not need to pick any scummers.
But, marv was one of his proposed team, and, he was proposing to put a 'liability' player into the group to test if they were scum. However, those earlier thoughts don't line up with his thinking that a single scum could cause the event to fail. Now, I'll grant him a little benefit of the doubt here. His first two posts were still during the period of the game when people were guessing that the events were more of a "challenge" rather than a "plug townies in and you win" thing, so the change of opinions could make some sense. But he was still worried about having a part without scum in it earlier, but his picks didn't show that at all. And now, what really got me thinking about Prom more: Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 02:22 Promethelax wrote:
You know catching up with this thread is a million times worse than I was hoping, remember how I said that I was toning down the amount which I am posting? Could you all do me a favour and consolidate too. Thanks.
After reading the last ~20 pages I have come to a conclusion as to who I want to vote. It isn't Sylo and it isn't Sand. Their abilities are, no doubt, incredible but I don't like the way Sand took over the thread early and no one challenged him. I feel that a mafia player would in fact have tried to take over. (Remember Matt's reed of Decundo in PP) as such I'll be voting away from the two of them and towards someone who I read as town right now and who is known for having good reads.
## Vote: Acro
Come on boys, lets do this right and make Sand have to fight for his nomination.
I'll be out again for a few hours. See ya'll soon. Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 15:13 Promethelax wrote:On November 22 2012 09:53 sandroba wrote:On November 22 2012 02:22 Promethelax wrote:
You know catching up with this thread is a million times worse than I was hoping, remember how I said that I was toning down the amount which I am posting? Could you all do me a favour and consolidate too. Thanks.
After reading the last ~20 pages I have come to a conclusion as to who I want to vote. It isn't Sylo and it isn't Sand. Their abilities are, no doubt, incredible but I don't like the way Sand took over the thread early and no one challenged him. I feel that a mafia player would in fact have tried to take over. (Remember Matt's reed of Decundo in PP) as such I'll be voting away from the two of them and towards someone who I read as town right now and who is known for having good reads.
## Vote: Acro
Come on boys, lets do this right and make Sand have to fight for his nomination.
I'll be out again for a few hours. See ya'll soon. That's a clear misrepresentation of what happened. Many people were putting their names out there to be party leader and I came about with a different aproach and it got support based on the ideas in it. Mafia hardly ever goes against the consensus and stick their neck out there to oppose in that way. That's a shitty, if not mafia oriented, reason for opposing me. You even include syllo in it randomly and don't comment on why he isn't the choice. I'm catching up, but writing as I read. I have never played with either of you before, I have trouble reading you and while it is true that you gained much support on a good idea. One which you got from reading the OP more acuretly than anyone else (we all thought that we needed strong players on the team, you realized that all we needed was townie players) you are a smart guy and, from what I have read of you, I would bet that you would have made this same play as town or scum. The fact that there was not an obvious counter wagon after you makes me lean scummy on you just as an unopposed lynch on day 1 would give me a townie read on the player who was up for lynch. I did not address Syllo because he did not seem to be a credible candidate to me at that point. I'm not going to vote Acro as he did not try to generate momentum from my vote on him and I will be voting somewhere else instead. On November 21 2012 13:16 Z-BosoN wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 Promethelax wrote:On November 21 2012 12:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
Sharing is caring? Sharing is great when votes are made, It is early in the day and allowing everyone to continue to play without knowledge of each others town reads is probably for the best. No need for scum to get a chance to plant seeds of doubt on our town reads or to keep working on rowing themselves as townies if we have green reads on them right now. You'll know my town read when I am confidant enough in it to place a vote. I'd like to learn Acro's at the same time. Well that's an easy way to make sure your town reads don't look so suspicious, isn't it? nah brah, it is how I play. I don't vote for a scum read until I think they are scum even if the thread as a whole disagrees (look at my d1 town vibes on muso in ACME). I was about to support Kush as a townie. He talked to me pre game about his fear of the size of this game and the themey-ness of this game. He was truly concerned and did want a just Vanilla game. I would expect more posts from scum kush because he would want to match his meta. My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. Mafia would want to be leader or in the party and the only way that is confirmed is if one of them is mafia. Ergo ## vote: kitamanI'm keeping up with the thread but doing my best to spam less as I have less to say. Trying to keep my posting short and sweet, this thread is hard enough to read without my help. I'll be around for a bit. Any questions: shoot. In the first post, he addresses Syllo as a serious candidate, then in the second he says "I didn't address syllo because he wasn't a serious candidate at that point". 1) I do think he was a serious candidate and 2) Prom did actually address syllo. Which makes me wonder why the hell he even said that. His whole argument about there not being a counterwagon to syllo/sand only makes sense if BOTH of them are scum. If one of them is scum, then the other IS the counterwagon. But what really bugs me is how he jumps off of the Acro vote because "Acro didn't try to gain any momentum with my vote" and onto kita, SOMEONE HE HAD NEVER EVEN MENTIONED. First off, that argument for jumping off of Acro doesn't make any sense. Does not trying to gain momentum make Acro scum? Certainly not. Scum would 100% want to garner support to get elected as party member if he already had some modicum of support behind him. Of course, he still has a town read on Acro because Acro is in kita's proposed party. But, it really feels like he's just looking for justification to hop off of Acro and onto the candidate who has him as a party member (and I actually find kita's justification for putting him in the party pretty weak anyways. I'm not positive if that makes me think kita is scum yet, though). Now, like I said earlier, I can see a townie doing that if at least one of the following two condition are met: 1) he, knowing he is town, believes that all 4 people of the proposed party are, in fact, town (which was what he said) 2) has a scum read on all the other available candidates. But there are a TON of benefits for a scum to do this. Especially a scum who ostensibly believes that 1 scum could cause a mission to fail. Bah, I'm kind of rambling a bit. TL;DR - Ran smear campaign on every other potential candidate in an effort to get the one candidate that had him in the party elected.
First off, I'll comment a bit on your case.
While I don't agree with how his vote on kita is necessarily scummy (I don't think scum would be THAT open when making party connections), I think the way he is using his arguments here is quite suspicious.
I think the strongest argument here is his entire thought process of there "not being a counterwagon" to syllo and sand. He's saying that he is certain one of syllo or sand is scum, ergo he will vote for kita (also a top contender). This really makes no sense to me. Especially when kita is the only person to have a town read on him (if my memory serves). I'd be more suspicious of him, if nothing else. This kind of thought process doesn't seem townie at all.
Now, what I really found suspicious from his filter is the insane amount of time he takes being paranoid on marv. He keeps suggesting that marv is scum, that marv is scum. Observe the following sequence of posts:
He begins including marv in his team:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2012 11:01 Promethelax wrote:
I see Acro has sniped me in terms of the idea of any potential leader posting their core group. Has anyone played in a similar set-up before? Or does anyone have the link to Resistance? I haven't read it.
Based on the fact that Acro had the same though as me and from our last game together I would currently, put him in my team, along with Acro I would add Marv (come on, wouldn't you?) and as third player I would chose Hapa. Hapa is a guy who over many games I have come to like and respect though I once hated him. He is a great town player and a kinda crappy scum player, seems like the right guy to have along for the ride.
TL:DR My team: Acro, Marv, Hapa
I'm curious if putting one player who seems like a liability (one of the guys known for trolling or one of the smurfs) onto the team so that we can get a read on them from their actions makes sense? It seems like we won't have lynches but knowing who scum is/is not will help town players direct any and all actions which they have and i assume making sure that non-town players not being on the quest team will be a good thing for us as the OP specifies that they can make it more difficult to achieve our objectives.
So he adds marv with little to no reasoning. He explain's Acro's vote, he explain's Hapa's vote, yet nothing on marv. Weird.
He then expresses some doubt regarding marv, in conversation with you:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2012 12:08 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Something that I just thought of that we may be able to take advantage of later on are name claims. It seems unlikely that there are multiple versions of certain characters running around. For example, if we were to have a likely town character such as Lucca name claim, we could elect her as leader. This however is based on the assumption that the alignment in this game is tied to the alignment of the video game. Until this becomes clear, I wouldn't be confident in trying to abuse the setup like this. Also, we would have to worry about the mafia being given certain fake claims, but this is something that is less of a threat, considering the potential reward.
We also have the option as town to enforce an additional party member selection vote. This limits the power of a single player, but it makes it easier for the mafia to sneak in one of their own in the 3rd of 4th slot. I think I'd rather put faith in the elected leader, to avoid the manipulation, assuming myself or my candidate of choice is elected. I think having faith in the electoral system is a good idea. We're more likely to chose one good town player as a whole than four town players individually. Whomever is elected i will support in their choice of team 100%, we as a town gain more (information and, I believe a better chance of mission success) by giving that power to one person. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:02 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 21 2012 11:59 sandroba wrote:
Yes. I have the power of logic on my side. It's very rare these days. So you're saying that you deduced that scum will know hp by flavor claims, or anything for that matter? Please explain to us idiots. I actually agree with Clarity here, I don't see how scum could know the HP associated with a name. However I also oppose a name claim currently. I hate mass claims without a reason and I don't see a reason for one right now. Sand: you haven't learned the rule "never trust GreY" Kier: would you really vote for Marv? Do you think you have the ability to meta read him well enough to know that he is town? I don't think I could and, unless someone can convince me that he is town or the person he is running against is super scummy I will NOT vote Marv.Adam, I'd love to hear anything more from you than "I'm a worthwhile player!"
Big big contrast to someone who earlier was interested in including marv in his party. Again keeps hinting that marv is scum:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2012 12:16 Promethelax wrote:
Clarity, i would agree with you if Hapa's reaction to Kier's questions had been what I expect from a town Hapa but it wasn't. My short list is a little bit shorter. Why would you vote anyone you don't have a town read on?
Goodkarma: have you played any games since our Newbie Mini Misfortune?
Hapa: what kind of player would get your vote? Not Kier, Not Marv...who?
Keir: how many scum does it take to sabotage a mission? My guess is that even a single one will fuck us so a scum Marv would not need to pick any scummers.
Then he resumes a friendly tone with marv. Now, there is a difference between interacting with your scum suspects, and seemingly abandoning your suspicions on someone. These two next posts by Prom really make me think it's the latter, that he doesn't really actually think marv is scum and was just faking suspicion on him:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2012 12:25 Promethelax wrote:
I would expect an explanation from you, Hapa, as to why you mind changed. Not an explanation from someone else while you got mad about being asked. My version of your town meta is where you pressure people until they cry and admit that they are scum or poop themselves in fear of your tunnels even though they are town.
hapa: How many games have you played with Sandro that make you aware of, and able to read, his meta?
Clarity: I see your reasoning and agree with it, I just don't have that town feel from Hapa. (as Hapa knows I never have a town feel from him).
Marv: what would you expect from town Hapa?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2012 12:35 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:29 TheChronicler wrote:On November 21 2012 12:27 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 21 2012 12:25 TheChronicler wrote:On November 21 2012 11:59 Oatsmaster wrote:
random fluff post,
Lotta Brazilians :O Useless. Don't post like this. On November 21 2012 12:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
I do not have any kind of read on anyone yet. He would be a good choice because if he's scum it'll show comparatively to his town play. Who is he? I'm assuming Hapa. ---------------------------------------------- I'd like to be the party leader. I'm an unknown (hopefully) and no one will make stupid bullshit meta reads on the leader that would probably be worse than a coin flip. That's pretty much the only reason I want to lead. I don't even want to pick who will be the three on my team, which takes me to the next part of my pitch, and something I hope whoever is leader uses. If I'm leader I don't want to choose the three people with me. I want to choose three people to choose three people who will be on the team. They can choose themselves if they'd like. Why do this? Because it gets us more information. If I'm not chosen leader I'd like the person who IS chosen to implement this system. We still get information from who the leader chooses, AND we get information based upon who the three chosen people choose. What in the actual fuck. Sure it's information but it's information impossible to decipher. Odds are you'll hit a scum somewhere in your massive pit of chaos but how will you tell the difference between him and the townie who just happened to get it wrong. Scum will have to choose another person or risk showing their hand and causing the event to fail. Town can freely choose themselves since they know they'll only help with the event. Doesn't seem chaotic to me. Why is it seeming chaotic to you? This is fucking stupid. You are aware of this right? Everyone can and should pick themselves. Town know 100% that they are town and scum know that town 100% know themselves to be town so choosing anyone but themselves is butt fuck backwards. This explanation is well past pants on head. Marv: while Hapa is a cute little hedgehog he is usually a responsive one. Not getting a scum read from his behavior but I am uncomfortable with him not explaining himself and getting defensive instead. On November 21 2012 12:36 Promethelax wrote:of course Marv sniped me, the bastard  On November 23 2012 05:49 Promethelax wrote:
you'll know when you need to know. It matters to me that I said what i said. It wasn't an accident.
marv, how is your read on me going? I know you have a somewhat scummy read on me even though you haven't said it. why haven't you said it and what do you think?
Then he resumes his suspicions on marv, without explaining anything. No reasoning, no nothing, just hinting that marv is scum:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 23 2012 05:56 Promethelax wrote:
Marv: why aren't you being Marv?
Clarity: I'm asking you why you see Phagga as more town than GK, I get having GK null (my read on him is greenish but base don his meta more than anything else), I don't get why you, as opposed to Marv, would have a town read on him.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 23 2012 06:04 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 06:00 marvellosity wrote:On November 23 2012 05:56 Promethelax wrote:
Marv: why aren't you being Marv?
Clarity: I'm asking you why you see Phagga as more town than GK, I get having GK null (my read on him is greenish but base don his meta more than anything else), I don't get why you, as opposed to Marv, would have a town read on him.
anyone could possibly have a townread on phagga for the reason I mentioned. I find you suspicious because you first voted Acro while dismissing sand and not mentioning syllo. When later pressed you said that syllo wasn't a main candidate at the time, but you then sidestepped once again addressing his candidacy with the explanation that "you didn't like how much the thread was into sand/syllo". Someone being a popular vote does not make them a bad candidate, and it doesn't chime with how you said syllogism wasn't a serious candidate before. I admit that part of my 'off' read on you may be because you're trying to change up your style of posting; that gave me an erroneous read on Z-bo last game too. Syllo and Sand were one in the same. Both appeared to me to be taking each other with them into their teams. When they were the only two candidates this screamed that at least one was scum. I don't get how you don't read it that way. it seems obvious and you are better than I am at this game. Explain to me why I am wrong in the read that one of them must be mafia based on the way the thread went early d1. Honestly I didn't differentiate much between Sand and Syllo which is why Syllo didn't seem like a real candidate early ( he was behind Sand in votes and they were, for all intents and purposes, the same candidate). Fair enough. I don't expect huge town reads from people who have played with me before right now. I want you to make reads and stick with them though. Don't give me this apologetic bullshit. Play your game Marv and play it right. u scum bro?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 23 2012 06:19 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 06:15 Clarity_nl wrote:
Prome, if marv is scum, and one of the syllo/sand is scum, does that mean syllo is scum? Because the way you're saying it, why would marv be backing syllo if sand is scum? why would Marv choose a candidate and not push him? marv was like the first dude on Syllo, counter wagon allowed not all scum to be on one wagon and Syllo seemed like he was taking Sand along for the quest. Either one is a success for mafia. Not at all saying this is how that went down but there are good reasons fro marv to do this. Marv, sorry buddy, maybe I'm just terrible. Prove your townieness in that case. You haven't done it yet and are playing way differently than I expected a town marv to behave. You are playing without your usual assertions and y\there are a few things you have said which just rubbed me the wrong way. Not in the lovely Marv way you usually rub me.
And after that, prome disappears, never to be seen again. Now, this to me does look like he's actually much interested in marv at all. Marv will also have to comment on this, as he knows prom better and might better understand this "playful non-serious" tone that Prom has taken.
But make sure to note - the basis for this case is the same as the one used by Keir's. Prome is not being transparent and is not making any sense in his decisions on who it is that he wants to lynch. I feel that this back and forth of opinion on marv is scum-favored, because he doesn't really think marv is scum and is just casually throwing suspicions on him (this also makes sense, because people in this thread have started to note that marv is not his usual self, and scum prom doesn't want to neglect this.)
I'm still not confident on whether or not marv is scum or no, but Prom's interaction with marv do not display investment, in my opinion, nor does it display sincerity. His sudden disappearance from the thread is also not a point in his favor.
Before I go balls out and print his name in red though, I want to hear a reply from him and comments on people more familiar with his meta.
Will be interested to hear his reply.
Also, to make it clear, right now I feel that TC blows Prom out of the water, in terms of chance of being scum. He has failed to make ANY attempts whatsoever in explaining the contradiction in acrofale's post (he doesn't even recognize it as a contradiction) and I find this to be way too damning.
Acro seems to have taken back his scum read on him, though, and marv and syllo are nowhere near calling him scum, but I still urge everyone to look at his interactions with me/acro/djodref. Looks so much like scum not being able to keep his story straight to me.
Let me know what you guys think.
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On November 24 2012 12:51 Keirathi wrote:
about iamp:
I agree with Hapa here. He's bordering on the edge of my scumdar, because he's fallen out of his characteristic posting style.
However, it was Thanksgiving and he said he was going to be away. I'll give him a bit of time to step it up before I seriously consider voting for him.
Thing is, he's actually posting. He has two posts in the last 4 pages or so (something liek that). So it's not like he's gone, it's just that he's lurking a lot, much like in GSL. Anyways, yea, let's see what he has to say.
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I actually agree with Prome about marv, in the first cycle, he was kinda apathetic about the party leaders and stratagy.
I thought he was 3rd party at the time, now a slight town read on him
In Prome's party post, it was purely based on meta reading of the players that he is the most comfortable with as opposed any actually reads in the thread.
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on phone.
@djo
1) read my filter, already responded
2) my plan wasn't so much about winning the event as getting the information from for peoples decisions not just one. I think we got lucky winning the first event, and everyone now thinks we made the right decision because if that. But how strong are town/scum reads d1? How easily are they wrong? I've seen enough d1 mislynches to know things are more luck than actual hunting.
If you accept that luck p lays a huge factor, then choosing thee people to choose another three won't make a difference for the end result. However, you will get a lot of information from the choices of the three chosen.
I'm going home ams on my phone, I know the spelling and formatting is horrible.
@zbo
You're either scum or don't read actually read filters. I reasoned to acro's accusations. Afaik he still hasn't responded to my response, though.
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ZB: I understand what you mean that scum wouldn't necessarily link both of themselves together like that, because it would make the other look pretty bad if one ever flipped. Which is why I'm not really super convinced that kita is scum.
But, prom had never mentioned kita even once. Then bam, he's in kita's party, and suddenly has a town read on him enough to back him for a vote. But, he never really gave kita a huge town read (despite saying that the leader should be the towniest person of the day), he mostly just said "yea, I kinda think kita is town but its not a really strong read, I just like his party," while simultaneously smearing syllo/sand for some dubious reasoning.
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I can understand the excuses that Sandroba has provided, but I find the complete lack of followup on who he would consider a prime scum suspect to be disturbing. It's as though he is holding back, maybe... because he's scum, and as scum making up even a half-baked scumread is hard for him. I would really like to see him take some initiative and actually help town out. He continues to fail to deliver in this department, which would leave me to believe that his complete apathy and lack of involvement in this game is indeed scum-driven.
I will keep my vote on Sandroba for the time being. Syllo has all but proven himself to be town at this point, and I will change my vote from Sandroba only if he somehow believes he isn't scum after his latest post. This only because I don't feel my scumread on Sandroba is strong enough without the reaffirmation. And yes, sheeping makes me a hypotwit...
I am going to now focus my attention on TheChronicler and Kitaman
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EBWOP: *on telling us who he would consider to be a prime suspect*
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
@sandro: Actually, I take that back. Kitaman is in first, with TheChronicler in second, and CaveJohnson/GoodKarma in third. What I mean to say was you are the most accused of being scum.
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@ Z-Bo
I think his stances on marv are rather reasonable. Many players in the beginning did not understand how the "party" system worked and were proposing various vets as teams. I think that's the case with Prom's involvement of Marv on the team. Him "prodding" marv with suspicion is a bit strange, but again, is excusable.
What starts to get sketchy in his filter are his voting actions. His voting rationale is really questionable all around.
He votes Acro for the sake of opposing Syllo and Sand for no other reason than they were popular candidates:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=40#795
He then votes Kita for equally strange rationale:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1104
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I did not address Syllo because he did not seem to be a credible candidate to me at that point. I'm not going to vote Acro as he did not try to generate momentum from my vote on him and I will be voting somewhere else instead.
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My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. Mafia would want to be leader or in the party and the only way that is confirmed is if one of them is mafia. Ergo ## vote: kitaman
Firstly, his reasons for voting kita are really bad. He trusts kita only for the reasons that Prom is included in the party. That's really really weak and has no bearing on whether or not kita is town.
Secondly, he dismisses Syllo as a candidate for absolutely no reasoning. Thing is, he never talks about why Syllo is a bad candidate in his filter. He just has this unexplained "suspicion" that either one of Syllo/Sandrob is scum. In fact, his later posts make no sense with this mentality:
On November 23 2012 05:40 Promethelax wrote:
Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke'
I agree with you that we should not be voting Sand based on his unopposed candidacy and I didn't want to vote Syllo since he seemed intent on bringing Sand with him on the mission. I still prefer Syllo over Sand and will vote him if things get tight, as it is though I am more comfortable with Kita than either of them, his town reads are still strong to me even though he is not as townine in my mind as any of the three he chose to take with him.
In my catching up I saw Kita post something asking why I was voting him if I didn't think he was the best leader. I thought I had made this clear, he was the best leader with a chance of success. If that wasn't clear my apologies, my intention was to communicate that Kita was the least of the evils which were available to me.
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Bolded part is relevant here. There is all sorts of stuff wrong with that statement. He is really convinced that one of Syllo/Sand is scum in previous posts...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1113
I will bet that at least one of Syllo/Sand is scum. I think I explained well enough earlier and I'm sticking with that. If you need clarification I can give you that.
...yet he's really at peace with the idea of voting Syllo. This doesn't make sense, since he believes that Syllo would take along Sandrob on his team. If he's "convinced" that one of them is scum, he should be really objecting to them as opposed to resigning himself to voting the lesser of two evils.
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On November 24 2012 13:26 TheChronicler wrote:
on phone.
@djo
1) read my filter, already responded
2) my plan wasn't so much about winning the event as getting the information from for peoples decisions not just one. I think we got lucky winning the first event, and everyone now thinks we made the right decision because if that. But how strong are town/scum reads d1? How easily are they wrong? I've seen enough d1 mislynches to know things are more luck than actual hunting.
If you accept that luck p lays a huge factor, then choosing thee people to choose another three won't make a difference for the end result. However, you will get a lot of information from the choices of the three chosen.
I'm going home ams on my phone, I know the spelling and formatting is horrible.
@zbo
You're either scum or don't read actually read filters. I reasoned to acro's accusations. Afaik he still hasn't responded to my response, though.
@TC
1) it's wrong. You have never explained in details how and when you decided that syllo was town. I want you to explain it now and why you didn't to do it.
2) I don't care about what happened for us. Everytime we discussed about your plan, you say something like "what if the party leader was mafia and stuff". I want you to show in which situations your plan would have been useful for town. I want you to expand your thoughts about your plan. I don't care if everyone else thinks it's bad and that we shouldn't clutter the thread an so on. You still think that your plan is good right ? I'm giving you an opportunity to show it to everyone.
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Okay. Just reviewed TheChronicler's filter (I know. I was unusually fast...). The following indeed does imply.:
"Making contradictions isn't something that only scum does, and is not inherantly a scumtell." He may be playing in a confusing manner, tripping on his own words, but I don't really see any scum motive behind what he's done so far. Add to that the somewhat more subjective feeling I have that his defensiveness is indeed reflective of an indignant townie, and I conclude that I do not want to lynch him this vote cycle.
I was fairly confident I would come to this conclusion, but I really wanted to reflect a bit on the nature of his proposed plan to see if it really could be argued to have much merit from a town perspective before coming to this conclusion. And while in my opinion it's a pretty poor way of going about things day one, I can at least see how a townie might have proposed it. Now moving onto Kitaman...
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@TC
Let's say you would have been elected as a party leader yesterday. Who would you have chosen and why ? Who do you expect these people would have chosen and how were you planning to decipher this information ?
And things like "d1 mislynches happen too often for us to be able to have reliable reads" and "luck plays a huge factor", I totally disagree with these things. First because we were supposed to do some townhunting yesterday, and not some scumhunting. I honestly think that it's easier to get townreads than scumreads, especially with totally new players.
Show me that you really believe in your plan and that there was actually something town could benefit from with it
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On November 24 2012 13:43 Hapahauli wrote:@ Z-BoI think his stances on marv are rather reasonable. Many players in the beginning did not understand how the "party" system worked and were proposing various vets as teams. I think that's the case with Prom's involvement of Marv on the team. Him "prodding" marv with suspicion is a bit strange, but again, is excusable. What starts to get sketchy in his filter are his voting actions. His voting rationale is really questionable all around. He votes Acro for the sake of opposing Syllo and Sand for no other reason than they were popular candidates: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=40#795He then votes Kita for equally strange rationale: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1104Show nested quote +...
I did not address Syllo because he did not seem to be a credible candidate to me at that point. I'm not going to vote Acro as he did not try to generate momentum from my vote on him and I will be voting somewhere else instead.
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My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. Mafia would want to be leader or in the party and the only way that is confirmed is if one of them is mafia. Ergo ## vote: kitaman Firstly, his reasons for voting kita are really bad. He trusts kita only for the reasons that Prom is included in the party. That's really really weak and has no bearing on whether or not kita is town. Secondly, he dismisses Syllo as a candidate for absolutely no reasoning. Thing is, he never talks about why Syllo is a bad candidate in his filter. He just has this unexplained "suspicion" that either one of Syllo/Sandrob is scum. In fact, his later posts make no sense with this mentality: Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 05:40 Promethelax wrote:
Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke'
I agree with you that we should not be voting Sand based on his unopposed candidacy and I didn't want to vote Syllo since he seemed intent on bringing Sand with him on the mission. I still prefer Syllo over Sand and will vote him if things get tight, as it is though I am more comfortable with Kita than either of them, his town reads are still strong to me even though he is not as townine in my mind as any of the three he chose to take with him.
In my catching up I saw Kita post something asking why I was voting him if I didn't think he was the best leader. I thought I had made this clear, he was the best leader with a chance of success. If that wasn't clear my apologies, my intention was to communicate that Kita was the least of the evils which were available to me.
... Bolded part is relevant here. There is all sorts of stuff wrong with that statement. He is really convinced that one of Syllo/Sand is scum in previous posts... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1113Show nested quote +I will bet that at least one of Syllo/Sand is scum. I think I explained well enough earlier and I'm sticking with that. If you need clarification I can give you that. ...yet he's really at peace with the idea of voting Syllo. This doesn't make sense, since he believes that Syllo would take along Sandrob on his team. If he's "convinced" that one of them is scum, he should be really objecting to them as opposed to resigning himself to voting the lesser of two evils.
Well, it may seem reasonable to you, I think you are slightly familiar with his meta. I really can't imagine though, being extremely playful over someone I think is scum - and he was very clear that he thought marv was scum earlier on, imo. he never bothered too much with it though, which is what was bugging me.
Anyways, I strongly agree that his reasoning for his votes are terrible. I can't really make sense of it from a townie perspective.
On November 24 2012 13:29 Keirathi wrote:
ZB: I understand what you mean that scum wouldn't necessarily link both of themselves together like that, because it would make the other look pretty bad if one ever flipped. Which is why I'm not really super convinced that kita is scum.
But, prom had never mentioned kita even once. Then bam, he's in kita's party, and suddenly has a town read on him enough to back him for a vote. But, he never really gave kita a huge town read (despite saying that the leader should be the towniest person of the day), he mostly just said "yea, I kinda think kita is town but its not a really strong read, I just like his party," while simultaneously smearing syllo/sand for some dubious reasoning.
I see where you are coming from now. I thought you meant that prom's vote on kita was more of a scum-scum relation. I can definitely see how scum would have thought "hey, he says I'm a town read, that means it's ok and not suspicious for me to jump into his wagon".
Like I mentioned earlier, I very much agree on the rest of his thought process, especially that "slight" justification of his vote on kita (the syllo/sand one-must-be-scum thinking), which really is, like you said, dubious and seemingly contrived.
Do you also find his interactions with marv, like I've explained above, natural? I really can't wrap my head about how he's treating a "scum read" ...
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EPT
