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Oh and let me tell you guys a little bit more about why I posted all that Marv stuff, now that he's dead. There were two reasons I wanted to make it really clear to the thread that Marv should be one of our main topics of discussion as potential scum, and both relate to the fact that I feel pretty strongly he was the best player in this game.
1) If he was scum we probably lose this game; he's very hard to catch, he's willing to bus his team randomly, and he's slippery (we saw all this in TL LV or whichever one was the invader zim one). I thought the only chance we had versus a scum Marv would be to lynch him day 2 or 3, before he could start bussing his teammates.
2) If he was town then he would probably be the night 1 target of scum; sometimes, however, scum will hold off on an NK of the best town player if they think that person is having a bad game or otherwise a potential mislynch target.
Since I didn't think that any scumteam of non-marv people here would be able to successfully push a mislynch onto him, making him look as bad as possible was a win/win for town.
Unfortunately, it didn't succeed in getting scum to shoot someone else, mostly because Marv's defense was very good and the only scummy thing he did was of minor importance. (I still stand by my point that him wanting to kill Tali for the shitty plan was scummy though, I did not make that point up. I did try and make it seem more important than it actually was.)
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I'm pretty tired so I'm not sure how well I'll write this. Apologies in advance.
Top scum reads:
DropBear- I realize I've posted on him quite a bit. The case against him has taken place over several posts so in this post I'll just consolidate the scummy points.
- He had a town read on me seemingly plucked out of thin air.
- His defense against talismania boiled down to a bit of meta and labeling the case OMGUS. This is a really scummy defense.
- He targeted Vivax, but didn't seem particularly invested in contributing to the case against him.
- He made confident statements to the extent of "Vivax is scum." This is a common tactic used by scum to get townies to sheep them based on the confident tone. If anyone needs me to point out games where this has been true, I'd be more than happy to show you.
DropBear is my strongest scum read. The rest of my scum reads are not nearly as strong due to the fact that most of them are partially based on meta. At this point I will not be happy with a lynch on anyone but DropBear.
sciberbia- In his last few posts before the D1 deadline, he seemed to have been convinced that Vivax was town. Why didn't he try to organize a voteswitch off of him? There was likely support for it. I argue that he knew Vivax was town, but didn't want to get a voteswitch onto his scumbuddy DropBear. Furthermore I've always viewed sciberbia as a big picture kind of guy. As town, he's exceptional at seeing through minor inconsistencies, and instead finding behavior with a scum agenda behind it. During this game he's harped on players for minor inconsistencies, been fairly wishy-washy with his reads, and was lead to the Vivax case rather than the one leading it. These are all things I haven't seen from him. This case is partially a meta read, so take that for what it's worth.
s0Lstice- His reasoning for voting me was pretty strange. His D1 play has also been a lot weaker than I'm used to seeing from him. Also in this post
@Milton Yea I'm here for a bit more. I think dropbear is town for mainly the same reasons that Matt does. He has been fearless, and doesn't particularly care about the consequences of his actions.
he completely ignores the scummy points I made against DropBear. A point that has been made against s0Lstice is that he was content not to scumhunt for quite a while D1. In the past he has sat back and directed conversation for quite some time before making his reads. I didn't expect s0Lstice's cases to be quite so weak as they were though.
Mattchew- He disappeared at lynch time and hasn't committed to reads. This is bullshit. Actually, add him to the list of players I'd be happy to lynch. I can't help wanting to lynch him out of spite.
I'm exhausted and I've stayed up way too late. I'm going to bed. Please for the love of god consider the DropBear case.
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On Risen:
I'm going to post some quotes first.
On July 14 2012 06:04 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. You're tunneling. I'm telling you you're tunneling. Just look at viv's recent posting. I'm serious. It is that bad, but no one in this thread seems to be giving it any credit beyond "oh he's playing to his crazy town meta" I'm tunneling too, though. I honestly think my case is stronger than yours tali. Do you feel your case on drop is stronger than my case on viv?
This feels townie to me. I thought it was super scummy but then I realized that he's telling Tali to stop tunnelling DropBear, not Risen.
On July 14 2012 05:44 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:21 marvellosity wrote:I'm not sure I can get behind a Vivax lynch. His scum filter from Newbie XVI is here where he lurked and summarised stuff. Here he is active and pushing stuff, even if he's doing it badly. This is your response to my case? Really? Town marv doesn't completely avoid answering anything I raised in my case by sidestepping it and posting a "meta-read"
I'm not sure what to make of this post. It definitely makes sense from a scum point of view IMO; the thing is, it also makes sense from a town point of view if Risen was like really super confident in his read on Vivax.
On July 14 2012 05:42 Risen wrote:
I'm convinces at this point two of viv/s0L/marv/austin have to be scum... This is so circlejerky it hurts... it's literally flooding the thread to defend vivax.
Ditto this one. Risen do you still believe this? Do you think solstice and austin are scum?
Yeah, I don't know what to think about Risen right now. The options include
- he was unreasonably sure about his case on vivax; I'm sure that's what he'll say, and it's not impossible as town, I know I've felt like that about my cases on people when I was town in the past (cases that turned out to be both correct and incorrect)
- he was chainsaw defending Dropbear; I could see a scum team thinking they needed to make someone look like a realistic alternative for the lynch to consolidate onto
- there are other possibilities, but IMO they're very unlikely to be true (eg, risen is scum but just decided to be really attention-grabbing for no reason; risen is town and wasn't that sure about his case on vivax, but felt under pressure to seem confident; etc)
Yeah, so I guess right now I'm leaning "town unless dropbear is scum" on Risen, since I think his behavior makes little sense as scum unless he was chainsaw defending dropbear.
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I feel much better about my reads right now than I did D1. Here are top 3 most suspicious:
1) talismania: I really want to lynch him.
2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw.
3) keirathi: still seems somewhat suspicious; mostly for reasons I've already stated
I really need a break from this game so I'm just going to make a case on talismania before getting some much-needed sleep. It's almost 7am here. I'll post thoughts on other people tomorrow.
My case on talismania
fixation on his plan
This has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote:
Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote:
sup bros
i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room.
Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:
alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote:
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice
This just feels like one of those busy-work summaries that scum do to make it look like they are contributing. It also ties in with his insisting that his plan has promoted discussion. Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious.
consistently wishy/washy
Here are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum.
austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it?
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:
solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator.
Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
quick question tali - what pushes you to Dropbear rather than austin? actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying.
especially that last one. seriously wtf..
I don't like his approach to the lynch
I feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi.
So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying.
This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere.
I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax:
On July 14 2012 07:01 talismania wrote:
well here's to hoping I was completely wrong
For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax:
On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro.
Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote:
argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote:
jesus risen why are you so excited?
According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me.
throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads)
He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO).
On July 13 2012 09:54 talismania wrote:
@marv: nice shit. solstice was pretty on point activity-wise in ssb64 despite being kind of wrong the whole game (he did get better late game). He simply hasn't been around this game that much. Very curious to see what he thinks of the austin situation since he claims he can read austin so well.
On July 13 2012 07:57 talismania wrote:
ps risen where you at? Gonzaw wrote some great stuff about you and I want to hear your cases/suspicions since I can't recall actually seeing anything from you along those lines yet.
does not defend his townreads
He never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me.
I have a really good feeling about this case. Can we please lynch talis today?
##Vote talismania
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@miltonkram
If you are going by meta, I can see why you'd find me suspicious. Lynching townies on D1 is not in my meta >_<
I don't think you were around at the time of the lynch, so you don't really know how hectic it was. I looked at the time 20 minutes before the lynched and realized we had no freaking clue who we were actually going to lynch. It was really a mess.
You ask why I didn't try to "organize" a voteswitch to dropbear. The issue was that vivax's town-telling posts only came like 4 minutes before the deadline and idk I guess I was just panicking. I was seriously considering switching to dropbear, but I didn't think dropbear was especially likely to be scum either (and still don't). I didn't want to make a last-second switch to a probable townie which would probably result in my getting shot by a vigi. So I asked for other opinions on vivax's towntells but nobody backed me up :/ I think the lynch was between 2 townies anyway. I'll post more on dropbear tomorrow. My scumread on talis has a lot to do with it
Also, If I were scumbuddies with dropbear do you really think I would've brought up vivax's towntells at all?
As to dropbear, I'm still not convinced. I'll post more about him tomorrow. 8am lol. I'm a bit delirious
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Okay now I'm reading into DerpBurp, as asked by Milton. This post took quite a while to write so I'll be responding later to whatever's been written since my last post.
Here's his first post after D1:
On July 12 2012 15:00 DropBear wrote:Hello everyone. I strongly disagree with town roleblocker being forced to claim, let alone not using their power. Having been one in past games that actually managed to block mafia KP I can testify to the usefulness of using this power. With the added possibility of jailkeeper and mafia roleblocker any claim could be complete bogus anyway and would be very difficult to verify. If you are town roleblocker do not claim!
One thing I would like to say about how we go about things, please don't overpost. Say what you need to say and shut up. Be concise and clear. This does not mean don't post, nor does it mean don't post often. It means don't post crap that doesn't need to be said. Stuff like this isn't necessary and clogs up your filter, please don't do it.
The first part is random D1 setup discussion, not very important. Let's look one more time at that second part:
On July 12 2012 15:00 DropBear wrote:
One thing I would like to say about how we go about things, please don't overpost. Say what you need to say and shut up. Be concise and clear.
This does not mean don't post, nor does it mean don't post often. It means don't post crap that doesn't need to be said.
Okay, that's fine; it's not really a big deal most of the time, but overposting can make the thread harder to follow and make it harder for people with less time to dig through for information and scum hunt. Most importantly, overposts like the one he quotes add to people's filters without giving information or opinions that town can build on. So this is decent advice, I guess. So now with that in mind, we're going to look at dropbear's next several posts, in order:
+ Show Spoiler [derpbear's next 13 posts] +1) On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania 2) On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. 3) On July 12 2012 15:22 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote:
@keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen
Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. For mine I have no idea yet, we are only 3 pages in or so? As to gonzaw's post, I think he is trying too hard. A hello post is extremely common and says absolutely nothing about alignment. Give them time. Points for effort mate but really a bit much so early. As to your post on marv, I completely disagree. Attacking a stupid plan is fine. He might still be mafia, who knows? But I disagree with your reasoning as to why he is. 4) On July 12 2012 18:09 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:10 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder. Obviously there are exceptions. If there are 2 "very obvious scum" or something (and only 2 scum remain) then he can try to RB those. But him trying to RB at random on N1 or even on N2 seems too risky to me, specially if that guys doesn't have very good reads (and isn't lucky). @Dropbear: I don't like your attitude. You just busted into the thread, basically discredited everything everybody said, and discredited every accusation anybody else has done, and that's it. All the while acting like you own the place or something (without actually taking charge). However you are not progressing at all, you are just complaining. Actually lets get the ball rolling (this thread is VERY silent so far, hopefully this changes that): ##Vote: Dropbear You're just mad that I think your idea on the roleblocker is bad and your cases are bad. 5) On July 13 2012 01:32 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:45 talismania wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Yo so this isn't true at all. I've been very clear from the beginning that I think the roleblocker should not use their power unless they have a clear shot with it or the situation demands it. Essentially, don't use it N1 or N2, then proceed cautiously. Your post clearly says you can't see a reason behind using it. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 talismania wrote:
@gonzaw on the RB: yeah for sure I don't think there's any point to a RB using their power. What did you mean then? The first post or this not on night1 or 2 post?> 6) On July 13 2012 01:33 DropBear wrote:
Talismania are you saying that your plan was completely bogus then? 7) On July 13 2012 01:34 DropBear wrote:
EBWOP: cos if so then that changes a few things. 8)On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? 9) On July 13 2012 01:40 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:37 talismania wrote:
No I don't think my plan was completely bogus. A variant worked in bastard 2 as you should know. I don't think it's that terrible if everyone follows it. Did I expect people to follow it? No. Did I expect people to react? Yes of course. Not sure how useful the reactions are but you can see my handydandy summary above. I spent the entirety of bastard 2 arguing with a brick wall i.e. Acrofales. I can't even remember this plan you speak of lol. 10) On July 13 2012 01:59 DropBear wrote:Marvellosity you have made so much sense so far that it makes me smile  11) On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax 12) On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? 13) On July 13 2012 16:29 DropBear wrote:Dear god gonzaw so many words. So so many words
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote:Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. On July 13 2012 03:04 talismania wrote:if you mean this On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? then I don't see you calling him suspicious, but just asking him questions. Implied suspicion I'll give you, but not calling him out as being suspicious by any means. Also good to know you're just as angry as in bastard 2 :-) Marv took the words out of my mouth. I was in the middle of a post in response to Vivax myself. I prodded, got an answer and responded with my vote, it's pretty clear.
That's enough for now. Let's do a little bit of analysis!
First, the overall trend is pretty damning. After saying we shouldn't post things that aren't necessary and shouldn't overpost in general, he posts pretty much nothing but small posts that don't actually give any information. I would argue specifically that posts 4, 9, and 10 directly violate his "don't overpost" directive. Now, you guys are probably like "but that's only two posts, why does it matter?" Well, when someone starts out the game by giving advice to town like that, it's important to see if they're following it. If they're town, then their beginning-of-game advice is going to be coming from some idea of what makes posting pro-town, what makes a good town environment, etc - and they're going to be following that advice when posting as town. On the other hand, giving start-of-game advice is a good tactic for scum to do almost all the time, especially when it's really general stuff like "don't overpost". It gives the townies a good first impression of them, which can color the townies' impressions of their later posts; it starts their filter off with something that looks protown, again getting them psychological first-impression points; and it doesn't cost them anything in terms of information given to the town. However, scum are much more likely than town not to follow their own start-of-game advice. Whereas a townie's posts come from the same mindset that led them to give that advice in the first place, scum's don't; it's like putting another ball in the air to juggle.
Now if you're still hung up on the fact that "it's only two posts", despite the fact that it's like a quarter of everything I quoted, let's look at some of the other things he posted. Posts 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 and 12 do what I would call "violating the spirit of the law, if not the letter." Sure, they include a little bit of information; but they are short and their content is minor. Post 1 is just links without opinion or analysis; post 2 disagrees with Tali's plan for no reason and besides that is contentless; post 5 is about the stupid "don't use roleblocker when it doesn't make sense" issue Marv made fun of a while ago; posts 6 and 7 ask a question of Tali and tell us "it changes things" but don't provide any information for town or any hint of dropbear's own opinion; and post 12 is a pretty dismissive allusion to one of dropbear's earlier posts that isn't actually relevant. I contend that in general DropBear is not following the spirit of his pregame advice, even though he is mostly (but not nearly always) following the letter of it.
Finally I'd like to look at DropBear's vote on Vivax, post 11. Note how it comes with little to no reasoning. His was on page 13 of the thread, loooong before there was any reason to start consolidating. Additionally, DropBear gets called out for not having any reasoning; in a dismissive, contentless one-liner (post 12), he refers us to his earlier posts in the thread for calling out Vivax as being suspicious. Well, I don't see anything like that; the closest I see is post 9 where he just asks some questions. I mean, agreeing with a case on someone is fine, I guess, although ideally if it's that early in the day you would post some reasoning of your own or at least explain what about the case you agree with; but DropBear's first response to being pressured on his reason for voting isn't "I agree with Marv's case on him," it's "I already called him out." DropBear actually didn't already call him out, but it's just as important to note that the first instinct wasn't to explain his reasoning for the vote, it was to defend himself as being consistent. I find this scummy.
+ Show Spoiler [why this point isn't hypocritical] +
So if you want to be able to sum up this case in a few sentences, here they are (the tl;dr in other words).
In his first post after the game started, DropBear gave town the advice not to post more than necessary and not to post without content. He did not follow this advice, and I presented three posts by him that I think were unnecessary and contentless; I also argued that his filter in general contains many posts with a bare minimum of content that violate the spirit of his advice. Additionally, his vote on Vivax was suspect - it came purely from agreeing with Marv's reasoning, but was way before there was any need to consolidate, and when pressed on not having his own reasoning, his first instinct was not to explain himself, but to distort his own previous posts in such a way as to make him seem more consistent.
##vote: DropBear
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hmm, the case on talismania that was posted up there looks decent as well. Keeping my vote on dropbear for now though, I want to see peoples' reactions to the cases.
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@s&b
I'm honestly too tired to read your wall of text, but I just don't see how dropbear could possibly be as suspicious as talismania. The mere fact that somebody as scummy as talis voted for him should make dropbear look townie.
The more I think about it, the more sure I am. I just don't see any plausible explanation for a townie talismania's disinterest in the vivax vs dropbear lynch. This on top of numerous other suspicious comments. The thought of not lynching him today is too distressing to entertain. I really want everyone to thoroughly read my case and try to give me a good reason why we shouldn't lynch talismania.
OK now I'm seriously going to sleep.
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Just woke up, and it's Fathers Day here so I'll be gone for a couple of hours.
This is a fucking disgrace Mattchew, where the fuck are you?
Same to Dropbear really.
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Response to Milton.
Vote on Vivax
- Marv ninja'd me in a case against Vivax. I had initiated the exchange with Vivax that led to marv's case. Mine was going to say pretty much the same thing.
Defence of you
- I defended you for several reasons. Firstly the person attacking you was Vivax, my biggest scum read. Secondly you were a fairly strong town read for me. Most importantly, at the time you were pretty close to leading the voting and were being discussed heavily, by Vivax, solstice and also marv to a lesser extent.
Response to talismania's case
- Talismania's case against me WAS an OMGUS. I disagree with him early on two occasions, here and also here.
I tied talismania and Vivax together based on Vivax's chainsaw defence of talismania onto you. Therefore I call him scum. Talismania then follows up with a big case on me afterwards.
In short, I disagree with him then call him scum, then he calls me scum. That's what an OMGUS is.
Also Tali's case was bad. I reacted angrily to it, I have a tendency to do that. He calls me disruptive and trolling. Read my filter from Bastard 2. I've been a LOT nicer this game, yet he calls me out as being more disruptive and bases a large part of his case on that.
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On July 16 2012 01:44 gonzaw wrote:
Just woke up, and it's Fathers Day here so I'll be gone for a couple of hours.
This is a fucking disgrace Mattchew, where the fuck are you?
Same to Dropbear really.
hey gonzaw, I think I found for sure scum brb posting soon
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Response to Strongandbig.
Your case on this page is a prime example of what I mean by overposting. Did you really need to include every single post I make when you say only 3 of them are relevant? The posts you highlight as being against my directive for posting in fact are perfectly following my own advice.
- Post 4 as you put it, was a response to gonzaw. This was certainly concise and was relevant because gonzaw posted a case on me. I answered it in one line. Next.
- Post 9, talismania tried to explain to me how something he had done in a separate game was relevant here. I reply telling him I didn't pay attention to his plan in that game. I.e. this explanation of his meant nothing to me.
- Post 10 was where I was ninja'd by marv with his case on Vivax. I made it clear that I agreed with the case.
I really don't get what you mean about the "spirit" of my advice either. Last I checked this wasn't a philosophy class. I said post things that are important in a concise clear manner and I did that. You even say this yourself.
On July 15 2012 21:16 strongandbig wrote:
I contend that in general DropBear is not following the spirit of his pregame advice, even though he is mostly (but not nearly always) following the letter of it.
The rest of your case I covered in the response to Milton.
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On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:hokay so DropBearI think he is scum for two reasons. 1) The timing with which he bashes my plan. Everyone else had already bashed it. If you look at that post, what possible purpose does it serve? It's not adding anything to the discussion, it's just prolonging it unnecessarily. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. 2) Weird tone. He was an aggressive player when I played with him last, but didn't get feisty (the "angry koala" as acrofales dubbed him) until he was threatened with a lynch. He's been ornery and disruptive this entire game and I can't figure out why. Plus when he was angry before, it was righteous anger. This feels like sarcastic, trollish ribbing. Examples below: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:00 DropBear wrote:Hello everyone. I strongly disagree with town roleblocker being forced to claim, let alone not using their power. Having been one in past games that actually managed to block mafia KP I can testify to the usefulness of using this power. With the added possibility of jailkeeper and mafia roleblocker any claim could be complete bogus anyway and would be very difficult to verify. If you are town roleblocker do not claim!
One thing I would like to say about how we go about things, please don't overpost. Say what you need to say and shut up. Be concise and clear. This does not mean don't post, nor does it mean don't post often. It means don't post crap that doesn't need to be said. Stuff like this isn't necessary and clogs up your filter, please don't do it. On July 12 2012 12:39 Risen wrote:
Holy shit I used a smiley face... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:09 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 16:10 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder. Obviously there are exceptions. If there are 2 "very obvious scum" or something (and only 2 scum remain) then he can try to RB those. But him trying to RB at random on N1 or even on N2 seems too risky to me, specially if that guys doesn't have very good reads (and isn't lucky). @Dropbear: I don't like your attitude. You just busted into the thread, basically discredited everything everybody said, and discredited every accusation anybody else has done, and that's it. All the while acting like you own the place or something (without actually taking charge). However you are not progressing at all, you are just complaining. Actually lets get the ball rolling (this thread is VERY silent so far, hopefully this changes that): ##Vote: Dropbear You're just mad that I think your idea on the roleblocker is bad and your cases are bad. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote:
I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote:
EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM
Vivax
talismania (the entire tone of the above post)^ What makes the timing of that post and his tone scummy? Well both are unnecessary, both are disruptive and create an anti-town atmosphere, and, in the case of this response to my plan, it is essentially just an excuse to add filler to his filter. Look like contributing without actually contributing. He's also had a relatively narrow focus, only looking at vivax and me. And really he was only looking at vivax, but then somehow in his last post I got shoehorned into the picture, perhaps to give him cover to vote for me later on. ##vote: DropBear
This is case is so forced and bad. It is like he looked at the player list, and said i'll try to make a case against dropbear today so i can look townie to everyone!
The first point is the timing of his response to Talis. Everyone responded to Talis's case including some LATER than Dropbear. Why is he treating Drop different from say S&B or anyone else that talked about his plan. NOT TO MENTION HE THEN GOES ON TO TALK ABOUT HIS PLAN AT LENGTH LATER IN HIS FILTER LOL.
The second point is the most commonly used tactic by bad players to lynch someone they don't like. I think Gonzaw fell prey to this a little too, but I don't know if his intentions were the same. Talis is literally saying, you were mean and that could create a bad town atmosphere (which aggressive DOES NOT EQUAL scum) and I would hope both Talis and Gonzaw as town would know this.
Since his vote on dropbear, he has been completely useless in the thread + Show Spoiler +(hur dur pot calling the kettle black)
talismania is scum.
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Going back to look at yesterday's finaly votecount, these are a couple of things that interest me. Mattchew and Solstice stayed out of the lynch entirely. Their votes were throwaways.
Solstice has been very quiet and is suspect.
Firstly this. This is very very strange.
On July 14 2012 03:56 s0Lstice wrote:
Vivax- what happened to Miltonkram? You've waffled around on him quite a bit, and now Risen is your top scumread?
Miltonkram was certainly solstice's big scum read early on, yet he was dropped for Risen. But you call out Vivax for this?
Secondly, solstice doesn't really perk up until there is a case against him. Look through his filter, he posts nothing remotely controversial before this.
Lastly, why indeed did he vote for Risen? In doing this he directly avoided taking a side in the lynch and therefore responsibility, so why Risen? There are only two reasons given.
On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote:
Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: a)stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and b)being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads.
a)Risen posted that it was too early for gonzaw to have reads on the third page of the game proper. Damn straight this is too early to have reads. This is the only time he does this at all. This scum meta solstice speaks of doesn't match up.
b) B is tied to A. Firstly, he was actually one of the first to call me out. So that didn't happen. I can't actually find where he defended Mattchew anywhere in his filter beyond this post, which isn't defending anyone more attacking gonzaw for having strong reads so early.
So basically the grave reasoning behind solstice staying out of the lynch were factually incorrect and/or very very weak.
For hiding from controversy i.e. the lynch for very dodgy reasoning, his low activity before being on the back foot and calling out Vivax despite doing exactly the same thing himself, I will
##Vote s0Lstice
Mattchew was completely fucking useless day 1. There is so much crap in his filter I don't know how I didn't see it earlier. His vote on sciberbia was literally sheeping marv.
He has now however just ninja'd with a case on tali that actually seems reasonable, regardless of it's defence of me. This is a very sudden change of tone from his previous stuff and I don't know what to make of it. I would have said very strong FoS up until this.
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Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis?
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I have some points to make on austinmcc as well but its 2am so will do tomorrow morning.
Basically my list of distrust atm:
s0lstice
Mattchew
austinmcc
talismania
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On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote:
Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis?
In your case on tali you mention him having similar behaviour to gonzaw, but you haven't written a case on gonzaw. What differentiates them exactly?
Some of it is good, yes. Tali is still dodgy to me but then tbh so are you.
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On July 16 2012 03:14 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote:
Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis? In your case on tali you mention him having similar behaviour to gonzaw, but you haven't written a case on gonzaw. What differentiates them exactly? Some of it is good, yes. Tali is still dodgy to me but then tbh so are you.
Mostly because I am unsure of gonzaw, and I can only vote/lynch 1 person today
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On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:*snip* fixation on his planThis has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote:
Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote:
sup bros
i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room.
Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:
alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote:
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice This just feels like one of those busy-work summaries that scum do to make it look like they are contributing. It also ties in with his insisting that his plan has promoted discussion. Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious.
well fuck the plan to be honest. It did (and somehow continues) to promote discussion. Whether that discussion has been good or not is up for debate. If I get lynched because of it I'd say not lol.
consistently wishy/washyHere are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum.
austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it? On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:
solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator.
Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am.
On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
quick question tali - what pushes you to Dropbear rather than austin? actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you. On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. especially that last one. seriously wtf..
What? Those are all my opinions I don't see what you're on about or why this is scummy or not.
I don't like his approach to the lynchI feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi. So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere.
I was at work, working. And refreshing the thread. I agree with you and gonzaw though I should have done more to get dropbear lynched but the way the wagon completely left me and formed up on him threw me and I was doubting myself, especially after last game where I just tunneled HiroPro and more or less cost town the game because of it.
I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:01 talismania wrote:
well here's to hoping I was completely wrong For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote:
argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote:
jesus risen why are you so excited? According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me.
You're actually just not interpreting my posts correctly here. I was wishing I was completely wrong about dropbear, not vivax. If vivax flipped scum it means I was completely wrong about dropbear, because dropbear was on vivax for the shittiest reasons day one. I didn't mean that I hoped I was completely wrong about vivax being town. In fact I wasn't really sure at all what vivax was. I liked Risen's case on him but I still felt stronger about dropbear and dropbear was on vivax. I said this too I'm pretty sure I dunno how you missed it when you quoted like every single post I made. Oh yeah actually you did quote it even.
throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads)He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO). Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:54 talismania wrote:
@marv: nice shit. solstice was pretty on point activity-wise in ssb64 despite being kind of wrong the whole game (he did get better late game). He simply hasn't been around this game that much. Very curious to see what he thinks of the austin situation since he claims he can read austin so well. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:57 talismania wrote:
ps risen where you at? Gonzaw wrote some great stuff about you and I want to hear your cases/suspicions since I can't recall actually seeing anything from you along those lines yet. does not defend his townreadsHe never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me.
Going with the flow? I started the flow on dropbear and austin as far as I'm concerned. Also, since when did I have townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew? Strongandbig I was leaning town in the early game but I was null on vivax and null on mattchew as well.
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